Author Topic: Ky Clerk Jailed for refusing to issue marriage license to LGBT couples.  (Read 71771 times)

matchewed

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Re: Ky Clerk Jailed for refusing to issue marriage license to LGBT couples.
« Reply #300 on: September 15, 2015, 06:20:01 AM »
Women are individuals. We are not an interchangeable pool of happiness-makers for dudes. Based on their posts here, neither ncornilsen nor MoonShadow has given any indication of understanding this. This is a demonstration of emotional and social ignorance.

Neither of us have implied any such thing, so this post simply highlights an ignorance, willful I believe, of the influence of the drive for both sex and human companionship of the male psyche.  The typical woman has a deep, primal desire for security; both for herself and her offspring, do they not?  This drive expresses itself in our modern world in many ways; the preference for a dependable source of income (FIRE being one fine example), the desire for sufficient insurance coverage against medical or financial hardship, the desire for a stable (read conventional) home environment (as opposed to a nomadic life in an RV, for example), excetera.  None of these primal needs actually require an ongoing sexual relationship, nor does such a generality apply to all women.  However, these are not what drives the typical male towards these goals; but instead, the desires and drives of his mate, along with her ongoing affections, are that which drives the typical adult male to work towards securing and maintaining these desired ends, for both himself & his mate.  The ambition towards financial and/or career success, for the sole profit and comfort of a single adult male (without the future desire of a mate as a driving force of it's own) is a truly rare quality, and often not an admirable one.  These drives may be downright primal, when examined without any individual context, but that does not mean that they are pursuits without their own merits.  One definition of freedom is the liberty to pursue one's own happiness (so long as it doesn't infringe on the human rights of others; i.e. it's not criminal in the murder/theft/fraud category), it's not a requirement that such personal happiness be unique from our physical or primal desires.  Our point is that, very often, the very definition of happiness is the simple satisfaction of such primal desires; and the systemic interference of such a pursuit of individual happiness can manifest itself as a negative trait collectively.  One that is hostile to the status quo that maintains such a systemic interference in their pursuit of happiness.

Truly, the book The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress explains this concept very well as fiction, and is a very good read as well.

Sounds like a whole lot of evolutionary bio/psychology unsupportable conjecture. Humans are much more subtle and come in much more shades of grey than the last couple of posts I've seen from you and from ncornilsen. I was perfectly capable in my younger years of not committing violence or not being "hostile to the status quo" because I didn't have a mate. I was able to desire security without needing a woman to drive it for me. This is insulting to men and women that you two really believe that we are driven by such simplistic things in this day and age. If our overly comfy lives were taken from us then maybe I could agree to this premise. But in my world it's still pretty damn comfy, our "primal needs" (whatever the fuck that means) are met.

Maybe don't rely on fiction to paint your ideas of how humanity works? Fiction is after all only a reflection of a theme in a book and not reality.

My take on polygamy is that it would not be some end of the world shit, and (at least in our lifetime) most people wouldn't partake in it given the cultural pushback.

dramaman

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Re: Ky Clerk Jailed for refusing to issue marriage license to LGBT couples.
« Reply #301 on: September 15, 2015, 06:32:38 AM »
What I have a problem with is the narrative that sex is singularly more important than Settlers of Catan or any other activity.

I play a LOT of Settlers of Catan on my tablet, often several times a day, much more often than I have sex. Even so, if I had to choose between the two, there's no question that sex would win out.

Call me crazy, but I think that most men, really, really like having sex and I don't find it troubling at all. Just normal.

Moonwaves

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Re: Ky Clerk Jailed for refusing to issue marriage license to LGBT couples.
« Reply #302 on: September 15, 2015, 06:47:48 AM »
Call me crazy, but I think that most menpeople, really, really like having sex and I don't find it troubling at all. Just normal.
Fixed that for you. :)

And yes, before anyone feels the need to jump all over it, I do accept that some people may be asexual but I don't think we're too far off to say that most are not.

sheepstache

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Re: Ky Clerk Jailed for refusing to issue marriage license to LGBT couples.
« Reply #303 on: September 15, 2015, 08:07:52 AM »
I wonder when all the dudes who bitched about a woman who expressed frustration over some men who don't do enough housework will chime in here and denounce the objectification and othering of women that's happening in this thread.

For that matter where are our MRAs boo-hooing that marriage is a raw deal for men and that's why they're abandoning it in droves, rending the polygamy point moot?

And where is this polygamy-cum-puratinism idea coming from that once there's polygamy unmarried men will have no hope of getting laid?

And for pity's sake where do women's actions in this structure come into it?


Look, let's look into two anecdotal examples:

1. Old-school sultan and his harem polygamy. (My understanding of this is probably based on old racist movies and someone should feel free to correct me.) Enormous power difference means small number of men get all the girls. On the one hand, not so bad because more men were dying from wars and fighting. Those remaining probably more mad about wildly uneven distirbution of power and lack of girls just icing in the cake. From women's perspective, uneven distribution of power seems to mean they don't have much choice though for some chances of security of offspring may be considered better than chances in peasantry.

2. China and other areas with sex-selective abortion. There have been a lot of concerns voiced about social destabilization of men not being able to find mates, comparing it to wild west and tendency (sorry, guys) of heavily-male populations to be inclined towards violence and crime. First, destabilization is conjecture, we don't have evidence yet. Second, the issue is not just about men not having potential mates but about women, and their supposed feminine settling influence over a culture, being missing entirely.

So in the case of #1, say what the you will about the 1%, economic conditions are not nearly as bad as that. Women who want to be with a poor-but-honest guy still have a good chance of raising their children in safety and security.

In fact look at the number of unwed mothers in lower-income places. Plenty of them would be happy to have a partner if they could find one who would stick by them and wasn't incarcerated (tabling political discussion of high rates of incarceration for now). It seems unfair to say they can't have the option to join a polygamas marriage when no one wants them now.

For that matter, I think a lot of women may actually become wary of very successful and attractive guys knowing they may have to compromise and share him. (I'm imagining that she has to give legal consent to his marriage for it to happen but that once she's older she has less power in the relationship to say no.)

Then think of divorce laws. A man may not be left with half his assets, but only a third. It becomes riskier for him.

So I'm imagining that in a world where women are equal, in terms of education and the economy, that very few are going to go for this. I imagine there will be a type of marriage contract which promises monogamy in the future and that most women will accept only this as a "real" marriage. There will certainly be some women who would rather have a higher-caliber man no matter what than settle for a lower-caliber guy she has all to herself. (Sorry to rather insensitively speak in terms of a ranking system. I know it's a bit like ranking women's looks on a scale 1-10.) But frankly we sort of have this sort of imbalance among available mates already due to young women being willing to marry older men who are successful rather than marrying their contemporaries*. In fact, in the most evolutionary-based sense we already have it an imbalance due to the biology that men are sexually viable over a longer period of their lifespan than women, so you always have more men looking than there are desirable women available.

To the extent that some women do go for it and there's an imbalance, I feel like people basing their world view on Heinlein might agree that plenty of men don't want to be tied down to marriage at all, and that might be the equal to the number of women not available. There are still going to be women you can date and women you can fuck (some for a price), but I suspect that any men who want to get married will still be able to do so.

*In fact, now that I think of it, if your husband is the type of guy to pick up a second wife because you got old and wrinkly, he's also probably the type of guy to just divorce your ass when that happens, so in a sense polygamy might actually provide more security.

ncornilsen

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Re: Ky Clerk Jailed for refusing to issue marriage license to LGBT couples.
« Reply #304 on: September 15, 2015, 08:17:40 AM »
I wonder when all the dudes who bitched about a woman who expressed frustration over some men who don't do enough housework will chime in here and denounce the objectification and othering of women that's happening in this thread.

For that matter where are our MRAs boo-hooing that marriage is a raw deal for men and that's why they're abandoning it in droves, rending the polygamy point moot?

And where is this polygamy-cum-puratinism idea coming from that once there's polygamy unmarried men will have no hope of getting laid?

And for pity's sake where do women's actions in this structure come into it?


Look, let's look into two anecdotal examples:

1. Old-school sultan and his harem polygamy. (My understanding of this is probably based on old racist movies and someone should feel free to correct me.) Enormous power difference means small number of men get all the girls. On the one hand, not so bad because more men were dying from wars and fighting. Those remaining probably more mad about wildly uneven distirbution of power and lack of girls just icing in the cake. From women's perspective, uneven distribution of power seems to mean they don't have much choice though for some chances of security of offspring may be considered better than chances in peasantry.

2. China and other areas with sex-selective abortion. There have been a lot of concerns voiced about social destabilization of men not being able to find mates, comparing it to wild west and tendency (sorry, guys) of heavily-male populations to be inclined towards violence and crime. First, destabilization is conjecture, we don't have evidence yet. Second, the issue is not just about men not having potential mates but about women, and their supposed feminine settling influence over a culture, being missing entirely.

So in the case of #1, say what the you will about the 1%, economic conditions are not nearly as bad as that. Women who want to be with a poor-but-honest guy still have a good chance of raising their children in safety and security.

In fact look at the number of unwed mothers in lower-income places. Plenty of them would be happy to have a partner if they could find one who would stick by them and wasn't incarcerated (tabling political discussion of high rates of incarceration for now). It seems unfair to say they can't have the option to join a polygamas marriage when no one wants them now.

For that matter, I think a lot of women may actually become wary of very successful and attractive guys knowing they may have to compromise and share him. (I'm imagining that she has to give legal consent to his marriage for it to happen but that once she's older she has less power in the relationship to say no.)

Then think of divorce laws. A man may not be left with half his assets, but only a third. It becomes riskier for him.

So I'm imagining that in a world where women are equal, in terms of education and the economy, that very few are going to go for this. I imagine there will be a type of marriage contract which promises monogamy in the future and that most women will accept only this as a "real" marriage. There will certainly be some women who would rather have a higher-caliber man no matter what than settle for a lower-caliber guy she has all to herself. (Sorry to rather insensitively speak in terms of a ranking system. I know it's a bit like ranking women's looks on a scale 1-10.) But frankly we sort of have this sort of imbalance among available mates already due to young women being willing to marry older men who are successful rather than marrying their contemporaries*. In fact, in the most evolutionary-based sense we already have it an imbalance due to the biology that men are sexually viable over a longer period of their lifespan than women, so you always have more men looking than there are desirable women available.

To the extent that some women do go for it and there's an imbalance, I feel like people basing their world view on Heinlein might agree that plenty of men don't want to be tied down to marriage at all, and that might be the equal to the number of women not available. There are still going to be women you can date and women you can fuck (some for a price), but I suspect that any men who want to get married will still be able to do so.

*In fact, now that I think of it, if your husband is the type of guy to pick up a second wife because you got old and wrinkly, he's also probably the type of guy to just divorce your ass when that happens, so in a sense polygamy might actually provide more security.

Excellent post. It's great when someone can add to the discussion instead of knee-jerking with indignation while ignoring half of what was said. You bring up a number of things I hadn't considered, and I can't really find fault with much of it.  The only thing I'd say is I wasn't restricting the nature of the relationship to marriage, but rather a culture where polygamy was common; and that the differential in actions would only be noticeable in aggregate, not necessarily on an individual level.

Moonwaves

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Re: Ky Clerk Jailed for refusing to issue marriage license to LGBT couples.
« Reply #305 on: September 15, 2015, 08:21:37 AM »
... due to the biology that men are sexually viable over a longer period of their lifespan than women, so you always have more men looking than there are desirable women available.
Huh? Do you mean fertile? I certainly have female friends in their 60s and 70s who would beg to differ on the point of them being sexually viable.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2015, 08:48:59 AM by Moonwaves »

sheepstache

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Re: Ky Clerk Jailed for refusing to issue marriage license to LGBT couples.
« Reply #306 on: September 15, 2015, 08:39:27 AM »
... due to the biology that men are sexually viable over a longer period of their lifespan than women, so you always have more men looking than there are desirable women available.
Huh? Do you mean fertile? I certainly have female friends in their 60s and 70s who would beg do differ on the point of them being sexually viable.

Well that's why I prefaced it with "evolutionary-based." I was trying to say that if we're going by the type of pop evolutionary psychology some are advocating, women past 35 are basically on the rubbish heap so arguments about a gender imbalance are highly diluted because they're really arguments about a further gender imbalance. If someone is following that line of thinking they should follow it all the way through. That's also why I specified "desirable" women as I thought that would come across as tongue-in-cheek. But I might not have made myself clear enough.

the differential in actions would only be noticeable in aggregate, not necessarily on an individual level.
I got that's what people meant and it's where I'm disagreeing. I think people are looking at examples of polygamy in completely different cultural contexts and that it would look different here.

I'm not advocating for polygamy I'm just saying I don't think it would lead to violent bands of the pussy-starved underclass roving the streets.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2015, 09:01:08 AM by sheepstache »

Moonwaves

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Re: Ky Clerk Jailed for refusing to issue marriage license to LGBT couples.
« Reply #307 on: September 15, 2015, 08:52:52 AM »
... due to the biology that men are sexually viable over a longer period of their lifespan than women, so you always have more men looking than there are desirable women available.
Huh? Do you mean fertile? I certainly have female friends in their 60s and 70s who would beg do differ on the point of them being sexually viable.

Well that's why I prefaced it with "evolutionary-based." I was trying to say that if we're going by the type of pop evolutionary psychology some are advocating, women past 35 are basically on the rubbish heap so arguments about a gender imbalance are highly diluted because they're really arguments about a further gender imbalance. If someone is following that line of thinking they should follow it all the way through. That's also why I specified "desirable" women as I thought that would come across as tongue-in-cheek. But I might not have made myself clear enough.
"Desirable" was actually what made me think you were being serious. But that's just me reading into it, obviously. Thanks for clarifying. I think my gynae starting to ask me searching questions last year (six months before my 40th birthday) about whether I'd started noticing any changes has made me particularly sensitive to this kind of thing. LOL

Cressida

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Re: Ky Clerk Jailed for refusing to issue marriage license to LGBT couples.
« Reply #308 on: September 15, 2015, 03:56:59 PM »
Women are individuals. We are not an interchangeable pool of happiness-makers for dudes. Based on their posts here, neither ncornilsen nor MoonShadow has given any indication of understanding this. This is a demonstration of emotional and social ignorance.

Neither of us have implied any such thing, so this post simply highlights an ignorance, willful I believe, of the influence of the drive for both sex and human companionship of the male psyche. 

*Your* ignorance of feminist theory - demonstrated by your response to my comment - does not make *me* ignorant. Believe me, we've been hashing over these issues for a long, long time, and yes, you did both imply what I accused you of implying.

Either you don't give a shit about feminist theory, or you think it's wrong. In the first case, I am self-evidently correct to label you as ignorant of it. In the second case, make your argument. Make sure to cite all the feminist sources you've read. Novels don't count.

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Re: Ky Clerk Jailed for refusing to issue marriage license to LGBT couples.
« Reply #309 on: September 15, 2015, 04:19:53 PM »

Cressida

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Re: Ky Clerk Jailed for refusing to issue marriage license to LGBT couples.
« Reply #310 on: September 15, 2015, 04:34:49 PM »
It's great when someone can add to the discussion instead of knee-jerking with indignation while ignoring half of what was said.

"Knee-jerk" suggests that my reaction was automatic and unthinking, and might be reversed upon reflection. So, let's reflect.

...

Yup, I still think "better give dudes a partner or else they'll trash the world" is misogynistic, selfish, and ignorant. Nice try though.

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ncornilsen

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Re: Ky Clerk Jailed for refusing to issue marriage license to LGBT couples.
« Reply #312 on: September 15, 2015, 04:42:11 PM »
I admit to not keeping up with feminist theory, because the goal posts move to often, and making any attempt to appease terrorists like you (Mod Note: Calling a forum member a terrorist is NOT acceptable) would derail any discussion about anything that doesn't fit YOUR narrative, which is NOT necessarily the only acceptable one.

While we are talking about a hypothetical population of men who may tend toward a certain behavior due to a lack of partnering opportunities, and a hypothetical population of women, of which some enter polygamist relationships for whatever reason, and some macro-level implications there of, there was ZERO implication or thought in my mind that individual women are interchangeable, or that they're obligated to make men happy. I do believe they are happiness makers for men, just like men are happiness makers for women (or, if homosexual, other men, just like women can be happiness makers for other women if they're gay.) It's probably just easier to say that people generally are made happy when they've got a relationship. I suppose I would have to say that on a macro scale, the individual is less important to the overall state of things, and is effectively interchangeable, and I don't believe it's dehumanizing to have this mindset. I also think it is completely fair, and non-sexists, to talk about the needs/motivations of particular subsets of the population without it being an affront to the whims of the feminists.

You also create a false dichotomy. Perhaps you're wrong about feminist theory? It's just as likely as anything else, since you've thrown 3 fits about what has been said, put a bunch of words in my mouth, without explaining the leaps you're taking.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2015, 05:50:05 PM by swick »

ncornilsen

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Re: Ky Clerk Jailed for refusing to issue marriage license to LGBT couples.
« Reply #313 on: September 15, 2015, 04:51:53 PM »
It's great when someone can add to the discussion instead of knee-jerking with indignation while ignoring half of what was said.

"Knee-jerk" suggests that my reaction was automatic and unthinking, and might be reversed upon reflection. So, let's reflect.

...

Yup, I still think "better give dudes a partner or else they'll trash the world" is misogynistic, selfish, and ignorant. Nice try though.

It takes a really twisted worldview to leap from what I said to that.

Also, Remember that reality/human nature does not give one single shit what feminist theory wants to be true. I still think it would be folly to deny a significant portion of the population (male or female) realist opportunities to find their partner. All we have to do is watch China over the next couple of decades.

Cressida

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Re: Ky Clerk Jailed for refusing to issue marriage license to LGBT couples.
« Reply #314 on: September 15, 2015, 05:21:45 PM »
ncornilsen, your supposed justifications are irrelevant. You made a comment that dehumanizes women and I called you on it. You're just repeating yourself and I've addressed everything you have to say.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2015, 05:23:35 PM by Cressida »

sheepstache

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Re: Ky Clerk Jailed for refusing to issue marriage license to LGBT couples.
« Reply #315 on: September 15, 2015, 05:30:30 PM »
... due to the biology that men are sexually viable over a longer period of their lifespan than women, so you always have more men looking than there are desirable women available.
Huh? Do you mean fertile? I certainly have female friends in their 60s and 70s who would beg do differ on the point of them being sexually viable.

Well that's why I prefaced it with "evolutionary-based." I was trying to say that if we're going by the type of pop evolutionary psychology some are advocating, women past 35 are basically on the rubbish heap so arguments about a gender imbalance are highly diluted because they're really arguments about a further gender imbalance. If someone is following that line of thinking they should follow it all the way through. That's also why I specified "desirable" women as I thought that would come across as tongue-in-cheek. But I might not have made myself clear enough.
"Desirable" was actually what made me think you were being serious. But that's just me reading into it, obviously. Thanks for clarifying. I think my gynae starting to ask me searching questions last year (six months before my 40th birthday) about whether I'd started noticing any changes has made me particularly sensitive to this kind of thing. LOL

I kept reading that as "whether I'd started noticing any changes that had made me particularly sensitive to this kind of thing" and I thought your doctor was treating feminism as a symptom of an underlying medical condition... It would be a sad day indeed.

swick

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Re: Ky Clerk Jailed for refusing to issue marriage license to LGBT couples.
« Reply #316 on: September 15, 2015, 05:53:09 PM »
Mod Note: Due to multiple, multiple complaints it has become very apparent that this isn't a topic that can be discussed without resorting to name-calling (among several other forum rule violations). Shutting it down.

 

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