Author Topic: Ky Clerk Jailed for refusing to issue marriage license to LGBT couples.  (Read 67600 times)

Cathy

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Re: Ky Clerk Jailed for refusing to issue marriage license to LGBT couples.
« Reply #150 on: September 04, 2015, 10:28:18 PM »
...Suppose a law was passed saying you cannot own a dog as a pet. ...

Such laws exist in various jurisdictions, although they typically only apply to "dangerous" dogs. In Ontario, anyone may bring an application in Court to allege that a particular dog "has behaved in a manner that poses a menace to the safety of persons or domestic animals" or satisfies other criteria. Dog Owners' Liability Act, RSO 1990, c D.16 ("ODOLA"), § 4(1). If the judge is satisfied that the dog is sufficiently dangerous, the judge may sentence the dog to death. ODOLA § 4(3)(a).

I first came across this legislative scheme some years ago and I was actually surprised to learn that the death penalty is alive and well in Canada.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2015, 10:38:26 PM by Cathy »

MoonShadow

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Re: Ky Clerk Jailed for refusing to issue marriage license to LGBT couples.
« Reply #151 on: September 04, 2015, 10:38:01 PM »

There's a difference between standing up for your beliefs and simple stupid stubbornness.
And who, then, gets to determine what that difference is?  Yourself?

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Second, again, the important principle here is that her rights end where others' rights begin. She deserves to be jailed for this for the same reason why someone who commits religious sacrificial murder deserves to be in prison, despite religious beliefs being protected. Even if here beliefs were genuine, it still wouldn't give her the right to deprive others of the ability to exercise their own rights.

This is total horseshit.  Not even comparable.  You can argue that she is an impediment to the exercise of the rights of others, but not that a temporary denial (and yes, it was only temporary, and everyone knew it) is morally or legally equal to ritual sacrifice.

MoonShadow

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Re: Ky Clerk Jailed for refusing to issue marriage license to LGBT couples.
« Reply #152 on: September 04, 2015, 10:40:31 PM »
"That government is best which governs not at all"; and when men are prepared for it, that will be the kind of government which they will have. "
― Henry David Thoreau

I wholeheartedly agree, which is why I wonder what interest the government has in restricting marriage rights.  You can't be the small government party and demand this sort of meddling.

So then you would agree that governments should get out of the marriage license  business altogether, repeal the public advantages afforded to married couples in favor of other personal relationships, and let the Christians have their word back, right?

iamlindoro

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Re: Ky Clerk Jailed for refusing to issue marriage license to LGBT couples.
« Reply #153 on: September 04, 2015, 10:53:01 PM »
So then you would agree that governments should get out of the marriage license  business altogether, repeal the public advantages afforded to married couples in favor of other personal relationships, and let the Christians have their word back, right?

Point of order: The institution and word marriage doesn't belong to, and never has belonged to, Christians.  It predates them, and will most likely outlive them as well.  In fact, same-sex couplings predate both marriage *and* Christianity.

MoonShadow

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Re: Ky Clerk Jailed for refusing to issue marriage license to LGBT couples.
« Reply #154 on: September 04, 2015, 11:12:50 PM »
But the moment she actually refused to issue the license she violated her oath, and that oath is the crux of the matter. 


I would disagree with that statement, but let's explore that a bit, okay?  The following is the Kentucky Oath of office, taken by anyone in government at any level, and I have taken it myself.

""I do solemnly swear (or affirm, as the case may be) that I will support the Constitution of the United States and the Constitution of this Commonwealth, and be faithful and true to the Commonwealth of Kentucky so long as I continue a citizen thereof, and that I will faithfully execute, to the best of my ability, the office of ——————— according to law; and I do further solemnly swear (or affirm) that since the adoption of the present Constitution, I, being a citizen of this State, have not fought a duel with deadly weapons within this State nor out of it, nor have I sent or accepted a challenge to fight a duel with deadly weapons, nor have I acted as second in carrying a challenge, nor aided or assisted any person thus offending, so help me God."

Now there are several unique things about this oath, not the least of which is swearing to "execute, to the best of my ability...according to law" and "so help me God".  Also, note, that the law of Kentucky is that same sex marriages are verboten; and that the oath does not recognize the interpretations of SCOTUS, or even the US Constitution as superior law to that of the Commonwealth of Kentucky.  Also, note, that the oath is not at all religiously neutral.  I would wager she has a legal defense in there.

The part about dueling has a colorful history, and worth a thread of it's own.  Honor dueling isn't, as a matter of statue, actually illegal in Kentucky.  It's not happened in 100+ years, and if it did happen, someone is getting arrested for something, but it's not actually banned.  Like I said, it's a unique oath.

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I too have sworn an oath, though mine is to the US government. Part of my oath was to follow the lawful orders or my superiors. If I were to refuse these orders for any reason, including moral grounds, I would be charged under the punitive articles of the UCMJ. My oath removes my existence as the smallest minority group. Her oath has the same negating effect on her individuality while she is working.

It's not actually your oath that does that, it's your contract with the government.  I've done that too, so don't leap to the conclusion that I don't understand it.
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 A county clerk is and should be an automaton of the county, and by extension the state.*

No one should be an automaton, not even you.  You know the exceptions for yourself; because the order must be "lawful".  If you refuse an order, you will be punished, but you can also challenge the order as unlawful; and then the order will be judged.  If it actually is, or should be, unlawful, you actually have a duty to oppose it.  That's also in your oath, include in the "defend the Constitution from all enemies, foreign and domestic..."  You took an oath to, primarily, defend the Constitution; not to follow orders.  The following orders part assumes they are lawful orders, under the Constitution.  If you followed an illegal and improper order, one that you should have rationally understood to be unlawful, the claim that your were "just following orders" would be no more of a defense than it has ever been for others.  We are all expected to have convictions.

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So my 2 cents is that she done fucked up bad, and should be in jail.


Well, she is.  And "love wins" right?  Because someone with convictions is in jail, "love" is victorious?  It doesn't look like love wins to me.

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*I'll preemptively admit there are limits to my stance. German soldiers shoving jew into train cars is the obvious example. While important and pivotal, gay marriage isn't showers with no drains.

Correct.  Justice delayed is *not* justice denied, it's just delayed.

Cressida

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Re: Ky Clerk Jailed for refusing to issue marriage license to LGBT couples.
« Reply #155 on: September 04, 2015, 11:14:22 PM »
"That government is best which governs not at all"; and when men are prepared for it, that will be the kind of government which they will have. "
― Henry David Thoreau

I wholeheartedly agree, which is why I wonder what interest the government has in restricting marriage rights.  You can't be the small government party and demand this sort of meddling.

So then you would agree that governments should get out of the marriage license  business altogether, repeal the public advantages afforded to married couples in favor of other personal relationships, and let the Christians have their word back, right?

Anybody still wondering what MoonShadow's agenda is, check this out.

Tyson

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Re: Ky Clerk Jailed for refusing to issue marriage license to LGBT couples.
« Reply #156 on: September 04, 2015, 11:18:44 PM »
Moonshadow, you can't have worked (or worse, currently work) for the government!  As a Libertarian that must be repugnant.

MoonShadow

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Re: Ky Clerk Jailed for refusing to issue marriage license to LGBT couples.
« Reply #157 on: September 04, 2015, 11:24:09 PM »
So then you would agree that governments should get out of the marriage license  business altogether, repeal the public advantages afforded to married couples in favor of other personal relationships, and let the Christians have their word back, right?

Point of order: The institution and word marriage doesn't belong to, and never has belonged to, Christians.  It predates them, and will most likely outlive them as well.  In fact, same-sex couplings predate both marriage *and* Christianity.

You love your semantic arguments, don't you iam?  My point is that the institution of marriage, an undeniablely religious relationship that predates any Earthly government, has had a standard meaning long before we got here.  The SCOTUS ruling didn't simply declare gay marriage legal, it set a legal precedent that the government has interpretative authority in the meaning and understanding of religion.  So while the Commonwealth of Kentucky has had 'civil unions' for nigh a decade, with all rights and privileges that a marriage license would confer, the law remains that the meaning of the term 'marriage' is the traditional one.  This is why the Christians cannot, and will not, ever let this go.  The government now, effectively, claims the right to dictate religious interpretations.  There have been civil wars fought over exactly this kind of claim.  What the left wants, and what they have won, is the word marriage; and this is very dangerous.  Semantics indeed.

MoonShadow

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Re: Ky Clerk Jailed for refusing to issue marriage license to LGBT couples.
« Reply #158 on: September 04, 2015, 11:25:09 PM »
Moonshadow, you can't have worked (or worse, currently work) for the government!  As a Libertarian that must be repugnant.

We all have things in our past we are not proud of.

Cressida

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Re: Ky Clerk Jailed for refusing to issue marriage license to LGBT couples.
« Reply #159 on: September 04, 2015, 11:34:01 PM »
So then you would agree that governments should get out of the marriage license  business altogether, repeal the public advantages afforded to married couples in favor of other personal relationships, and let the Christians have their word back, right?

Point of order: The institution and word marriage doesn't belong to, and never has belonged to, Christians.  It predates them, and will most likely outlive them as well.  In fact, same-sex couplings predate both marriage *and* Christianity.

You love your semantic arguments, don't you iam?  My point is that the institution of marriage, an undeniablely religious relationship that predates any Earthly government, has had a standard meaning long before we got here.  The SCOTUS ruling didn't simply declare gay marriage legal, it set a legal precedent that the government has interpretative authority in the meaning and understanding of religion.  So while the Commonwealth of Kentucky has had 'civil unions' for nigh a decade, with all rights and privileges that a marriage license would confer, the law remains that the meaning of the term 'marriage' is the traditional one.  This is why the Christians cannot, and will not, ever let this go.  The government now, effectively, claims the right to dictate religious interpretations.  There have been civil wars fought over exactly this kind of claim.  What the left wants, and what they have won, is the word marriage; and this is very dangerous.  Semantics indeed.

Dude. Religious != christian. Are you for real?

Jack

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Re: Ky Clerk Jailed for refusing to issue marriage license to LGBT couples.
« Reply #160 on: September 05, 2015, 12:00:55 AM »
Second, again, the important principle here is that her rights end where others' rights begin. She deserves to be jailed for this for the same reason why someone who commits religious sacrificial murder deserves to be in prison, despite religious beliefs being protected. Even if here beliefs were genuine, it still wouldn't give her the right to deprive others of the ability to exercise their own rights.

This is total horseshit.  Not even comparable.  You can argue that she is an impediment to the exercise of the rights of others, but not that a temporary denial (and yes, it was only temporary, and everyone knew it) is morally or legally equal to ritual sacrifice.

Check your reading comprehension skills. I never claimed the situations were similar in degree, only in category.

"That government is best which governs not at all"; and when men are prepared for it, that will be the kind of government which they will have. "
― Henry David Thoreau

I wholeheartedly agree, which is why I wonder what interest the government has in restricting marriage rights.  You can't be the small government party and demand this sort of meddling.

So then you would agree that governments should get out of the marriage license  business altogether, repeal the public advantages afforded to married couples in favor of other personal relationships, and let the Christians have their word back, right?

Yes. There's no reason the legal concept the government calls "marriage" couldn't -- or shouldn't -- be replaced with normal contract law. All "marriage licenses" should be replaced by "civil union licenses," including for heterosexual couples.

Dude. Religious != christian. Are you for real?

Government recognition of (for example) the Hindu concept of marriage violates the separation of church and state just as much as recognition of the Christian concept does.

Sailor Sam

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Re: Ky Clerk Jailed for refusing to issue marriage license to LGBT couples.
« Reply #161 on: September 05, 2015, 12:01:35 AM »
Hey MoonShadow, I read the oath before posting my reply, but I didn't think to include it. I too found the dueling stuff worthy of a chuckle, and maybe some research tomorrow.

You're right about the commissioned officer's oath. I got mixed up with the oath of enlistment, which I hear with a much higher frequency. Two points:
1. I don't understand what you mean by contract. My service requirement? If so, I'm well past that;
2. I'm kind of hurt that you told me not to leap to conclusions. Haven't I established myself as someone who tries to gather information prior to casting aspersions?

So, did she violate her oath? I'll admit I'm out of my depth regarding the jurisprudence of state vs national constitutional law. My personal conviction is that yes, she violated. Your conviction is that she has not violated her oath. Stalemate. We may indeed have to wait for some lawyers to duke it out.

Quote from: Sailor Sam
So my 2 cents is that she done fucked up bad, and should be in jail.
Well, she is.  And "love wins" right?  Because someone with convictions is in jail, "love" is victorious?  It doesn't look like love wins to me.

Hur? I didn't bring up love, winning or not winning. I don't follow the logic. She's not in jail for her convictions. She could tape her moral objections to her forehead, as long as she forked over the license. I thought we were on the same page, but it's all slippery again. Is the backbone of your argument that Davis had the right to deny the marriage license based on her religious beliefs?

MDM

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Re: Ky Clerk Jailed for refusing to issue marriage license to LGBT couples.
« Reply #162 on: September 05, 2015, 12:02:38 AM »
See also http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/off-topic/who-needs-concealed-carry/msg795189/#msg795189.

Seems this thread has been somewhat better than that one, but that's hardly a high bar.... ;)

Again, for those of you already following the forum guidelines: keep up the good work.

Kriegsspiel

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Re: Ky Clerk Jailed for refusing to issue marriage license to LGBT couples.
« Reply #163 on: September 05, 2015, 12:19:35 AM »
A thread thoughtfully and beautifully describing disarming and beating someone unconscious with their own weapons should NOT be compared with one about a county clerk who doesn't want to issue marriage licences to gay people. One is about a totally LEGIT martial art, and the other is about uncle Fester being a bigot.

MoonShadow

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Re: Ky Clerk Jailed for refusing to issue marriage license to LGBT couples.
« Reply #164 on: September 05, 2015, 12:25:50 AM »
Hey MoonShadow, I read the oath before posting my reply, but I didn't think to include it. I too found the dueling stuff worthy of a chuckle, and maybe some research tomorrow.

You're right about the commissioned officer's oath. I got mixed up with the oath of enlistment, which I hear with a much higher frequency. Two points:
1. I don't understand what you mean by contract. My service requirement? If so, I'm well past that;
2. I'm kind of hurt that you told me not to leap to conclusions. Haven't I established myself as someone who tries to gather information prior to casting aspersions?

Sorry, there are so much leaping going on around me I lose track of who is in the air at any one time.

Quote
So, did she violate her oath? I'll admit I'm out of my depth regarding the jurisprudence of state vs national constitutional law. My personal conviction is that yes, she violated. Your conviction is that she has not violated her oath. Stalemate. We may indeed have to wait for some lawyers to duke it out.

But I don't want lawyers to decide, either.  That just makes them richer, and there will still not be any justice in the end.
Quote

Quote from: Sailor Sam
So my 2 cents is that she done fucked up bad, and should be in jail.
Well, she is.  And "love wins" right?  Because someone with convictions is in jail, "love" is victorious?  It doesn't look like love wins to me.

Hur? I didn't bring up love, winning or not winning. I don't follow the logic. She's not in jail for her convictions. She could tape her moral objections to her forehead, as long as she forked over the license. I thought we were on the same page, but it's all slippery again. Is the backbone of your argument that Davis had the right to deny the marriage license based on her religious beliefs?

I think the two of us are clicking fine, I put that in there because that was a comment made early in this thread, just after someone mentioned she was jailed yesterday.

MoonShadow

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Re: Ky Clerk Jailed for refusing to issue marriage license to LGBT couples.
« Reply #165 on: September 05, 2015, 12:28:50 AM »
So then you would agree that governments should get out of the marriage license  business altogether, repeal the public advantages afforded to married couples in favor of other personal relationships, and let the Christians have their word back, right?

Point of order: The institution and word marriage doesn't belong to, and never has belonged to, Christians.  It predates them, and will most likely outlive them as well.  In fact, same-sex couplings predate both marriage *and* Christianity.

You love your semantic arguments, don't you iam?  My point is that the institution of marriage, an undeniablely religious relationship that predates any Earthly government, has had a standard meaning long before we got here.  The SCOTUS ruling didn't simply declare gay marriage legal, it set a legal precedent that the government has interpretative authority in the meaning and understanding of religion.  So while the Commonwealth of Kentucky has had 'civil unions' for nigh a decade, with all rights and privileges that a marriage license would confer, the law remains that the meaning of the term 'marriage' is the traditional one.  This is why the Christians cannot, and will not, ever let this go.  The government now, effectively, claims the right to dictate religious interpretations.  There have been civil wars fought over exactly this kind of claim.  What the left wants, and what they have won, is the word marriage; and this is very dangerous.  Semantics indeed.

Dude. Religious != christian. Are you for real?

And people here accuse me of word salad.  Do I pass the Turing test?

Sailor Sam

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Re: Ky Clerk Jailed for refusing to issue marriage license to LGBT couples.
« Reply #166 on: September 05, 2015, 01:00:25 AM »
Sorry, there are so much leaping going on around me I lose track of who is in the air at any one time.
No worries. Entirely understandable.

But I don't want lawyers to decide, either.  That just makes them richer, and there will still not be any justice in the end.
So, what do you want? In your ideal world, what is justice here?

Quote from: SailorSam
Hur? I didn't bring up love, winning or not winning. I don't follow the logic. She's not in jail for her convictions. She could tape her moral objections to her forehead, as long as she forked over the license. I thought we were on the same page, but it's all slippery again. Is the backbone of your argument that Davis had the right to deny the marriage license based on her religious beliefs?
I think the two of us are clicking fine, I put that in there because that was a comment made early in this thread, just after someone mentioned she was jailed yesterday.
Right, I remember reading your original comment. But I don't see how it applies to my statement.

sheepstache

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Re: Ky Clerk Jailed for refusing to issue marriage license to LGBT couples.
« Reply #167 on: September 05, 2015, 04:23:50 AM »
Quote
Dude. Religious != christian. Are you for real?

Government recognition of (for example) the Hindu concept of marriage violates the separation of church and state just as much as recognition of the Christian concept does.

Of course I suppose Hindus being able to marry violates Christianity's "ownership" of the word marriage too.

I feel the need to point out that several Christian churches have been performing gay marriages since before the government recognized it. It's important to remember that Christianity != anti-gay.


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Re: Ky Clerk Jailed for refusing to issue marriage license to LGBT couples.
« Reply #168 on: September 05, 2015, 04:51:33 AM »
I'll just chime in that I am a conservative Christian who believes in the traditional definition of marriage.  I also think Kim Davis should have resigned when the Supreme Court made their ruling and homosexual marriage became the law of the land.  She was no longer able to uphold her oath.

I also find it interesting how people react to the rule of law when they don't like the law.

BlueMR2

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Re: Ky Clerk Jailed for refusing to issue marriage license to LGBT couples.
« Reply #169 on: September 05, 2015, 05:33:26 AM »
Hard to get too excited about this.  One side does illegal things because they don't like the law.  The law changes.  Now the other side does illegal things because they don't like the law.  Shrug.  There's only 2 opinions allowed, and whichever happens to be in the majority at the moment abuses the adherents to the other side.  She lives in a Democratic Republic, that's just how it works.  It's not a good system, but we haven't come up with anything better yet.

My personal takeaway is to FIRE ASAP.  The longer you work anywhere, the more likely you'll be asked to do something wrong.  Appears to be even worse if it's a government job since you're closer to the shifting breezes of politics.

purple monkey

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Re: Ky Clerk Jailed for refusing to issue marriage license to LGBT couples.
« Reply #170 on: September 05, 2015, 07:56:16 AM »
Hard to get too excited about this.  One side does illegal things because they don't like the law.  The law changes.  Now the other side does illegal things because they don't like the law.  Shrug.  There's only 2 opinions allowed, and whichever happens to be in the majority at the moment abuses the adherents to the other side.  She lives in a Democratic Republic, that's just how it works.  It's not a good system, but we haven't come up with anything better yet.

My personal takeaway is to FIRE ASAP.  The longer you work anywhere, the more likely you'll be asked to do something wrong.  Appears to be even worse if it's a government job since you're closer to the shifting breezes of politics.

Excellent point.

I admire her for standing up for what she believes in and be willing to go to jail for it.

Ready for the heckles....

Dee18

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Re: Ky Clerk Jailed for refusing to issue marriage license to LGBT couples.
« Reply #171 on: September 05, 2015, 08:29:13 AM »

" Instead, our modern US seems to believe that public officials must resign their right to express their beliefs, simply because it would contradict with the official position of their employer. "

No one is asking Kim Davis to "resign her rights to express her beliefs."  The court is just telling her she must do her job.  In her non-working hours she can march all over town with signs saying her personal anti-gay beliefs.

justajane

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Re: Ky Clerk Jailed for refusing to issue marriage license to LGBT couples.
« Reply #172 on: September 05, 2015, 08:47:33 AM »
Hard to get too excited about this.  One side does illegal things because they don't like the law.  The law changes.  Now the other side does illegal things because they don't like the law.  Shrug.  There's only 2 opinions allowed, and whichever happens to be in the majority at the moment abuses the adherents to the other side.  She lives in a Democratic Republic, that's just how it works.  It's not a good system, but we haven't come up with anything better yet.

My personal takeaway is to FIRE ASAP.  The longer you work anywhere, the more likely you'll be asked to do something wrong.  Appears to be even worse if it's a government job since you're closer to the shifting breezes of politics.

Excellent point.

I admire her for standing up for what she believes in and be willing to go to jail for it.

Ready for the heckles....

I guess this makes sense if you can separate the fact that what she believes in is discriminatory and has a direct negative effect on the lives of others. I only tend to respect or admire conviction when it is actually an admirable conviction to begin with.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2015, 08:50:10 AM by justajane »

sheepstache

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Re: Ky Clerk Jailed for refusing to issue marriage license to LGBT couples.
« Reply #173 on: September 05, 2015, 09:50:19 AM »
Hard to get too excited about this.  One side does illegal things because they don't like the law.  The law changes.  Now the other side does illegal things because they don't like the law.  Shrug.  There's only 2 opinions allowed, and whichever happens to be in the majority at the moment abuses the adherents to the other side.  She lives in a Democratic Republic, that's just how it works.  It's not a good system, but we haven't come up with anything better yet.

Yeah, that's another part of my issue with the law not always being morally right. Moral rightness isn't determined by a popularity contest. But I'm surprised at how many people seem to feel differently.
Quote
My personal takeaway is to FIRE ASAP.  The longer you work anywhere, the more likely you'll be asked to do something wrong.  Appears to be even worse if it's a government job since you're closer to the shifting breezes of politics.

Ha ha that's something I was thinking about, 'Man, Kim Davis must have FU money!' Unless she was counting on donations from the start.

This isn't meant as an analogy, but it reminds me of one of my usual thoughts about the importance of all citizens having FU money to secure a more peaceful, moral union. I was working someplace where the house manager had an objection to a box office process he'd been ordered to do. When a show has just opened or isn't doing well, there's something called a papering service where your PR folks give away a bunch of tickets to fill the house, making the show look successful to the paying customers and improving the experience for them as well as the actors.  But they had been overdoing it a bit and we were running out of seats. The HM refused to turn away the people with the papering service tickets because they had been distributed to assisted living homes and he thought it was terrible to turn away frail, elderly people who had taken a lot of trouble to come out. I disagreed with him because I thought, even though it wasn't written out on the voucher, that it was understood you might have to give up your seat to a paying customer, but I admired that he didn't give a fuck whether he got fired or not.

MoonShadow

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Re: Ky Clerk Jailed for refusing to issue marriage license to LGBT couples.
« Reply #174 on: September 05, 2015, 04:01:13 PM »
Hard to get too excited about this.  One side does illegal things because they don't like the law.  The law changes.  Now the other side does illegal things because they don't like the law.  Shrug.  There's only 2 opinions allowed, and whichever happens to be in the majority at the moment abuses the adherents to the other side.  She lives in a Democratic Republic, that's just how it works.  It's not a good system, but we haven't come up with anything better yet.

My personal takeaway is to FIRE ASAP.  The longer you work anywhere, the more likely you'll be asked to do something wrong.  Appears to be even worse if it's a government job since you're closer to the shifting breezes of politics.

Excellent point.

I admire her for standing up for what she believes in and be willing to go to jail for it.

Ready for the heckles....

I guess this makes sense if you can separate the fact that what she believes in is discriminatory and has a direct negative effect on the lives of others. I only tend to respect or admire conviction when it is actually an admirable conviction to begin with.

Would you admire a person who advocates for the banning of a GMO?  What if that particular GMO had the potential to end the greatest killer of children in our modern world, would you still admire it?  I might be getting off topic here, but really, I'm trying to find out if your admiration is based upon your agreement with the cause, or if there is some actual guiding principle you use beyond "I don't like it".

justajane

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Re: Ky Clerk Jailed for refusing to issue marriage license to LGBT couples.
« Reply #175 on: September 05, 2015, 05:36:13 PM »
Hard to get too excited about this.  One side does illegal things because they don't like the law.  The law changes.  Now the other side does illegal things because they don't like the law.  Shrug.  There's only 2 opinions allowed, and whichever happens to be in the majority at the moment abuses the adherents to the other side.  She lives in a Democratic Republic, that's just how it works.  It's not a good system, but we haven't come up with anything better yet.

My personal takeaway is to FIRE ASAP.  The longer you work anywhere, the more likely you'll be asked to do something wrong.  Appears to be even worse if it's a government job since you're closer to the shifting breezes of politics.

Excellent point.

I admire her for standing up for what she believes in and be willing to go to jail for it.

Ready for the heckles....

I guess this makes sense if you can separate the fact that what she believes in is discriminatory and has a direct negative effect on the lives of others. I only tend to respect or admire conviction when it is actually an admirable conviction to begin with.

Would you admire a person who advocates for the banning of a GMO?  What if that particular GMO had the potential to end the greatest killer of children in our modern world, would you still admire it?  I might be getting off topic here, but really, I'm trying to find out if your admiration is based upon your agreement with the cause, or if there is some actual guiding principle you use beyond "I don't like it".

I'm not sure what you are trying to ask regarding GMOs. What I said originally is pretty straightforward. I don't respect Kim Davis, because I abhor her conviction. Why should I be obligated to respect that she is standing by her convictions abstractly if I don't agree with what she is doing and I think she is causing direct harm to others? So, yes, my guiding principle is whether or not I am agreement with the issue. I have a hard time understanding why this is surprising or somehow problematic. You're not catching me in a "gotcha" here, and I would imagine this is how most people operate.

I believe this was possibly mentioned upthread, but would you have respected a county clerk who, out of a heart felt conviction, had granted marriage licenses to same sex couples before doing so was actually legal? This would be the direct corollary. If you didn't agree with gay marriage, I wouldn't expect you to.

Flyingkea

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Re: Ky Clerk Jailed for refusing to issue marriage license to LGBT couples.
« Reply #176 on: September 06, 2015, 04:48:50 AM »
This has been an interesting read, especially as an atheist non-American, because it has helped me to come to see Davis's point of view a little more. I still abhor it, as my guiding principle is 'do the minimum harm possible',  and I strongly believe her views cause substantial harm, but now I see the point of what do you do when you disagree with a law?

I think for a lot of people, it's not just her refusing to sign it, but the fact she also forbade other people in her office from signing it too. I understand the court is now trying to decide whether to free her now that other deputies have agreed to continue signing certificates, provided she agrees not to interfere with them in that duty.

Gin1984

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Re: Ky Clerk Jailed for refusing to issue marriage license to LGBT couples.
« Reply #177 on: September 06, 2015, 06:28:38 AM »
This has been an interesting read, especially as an atheist non-American, because it has helped me to come to see Davis's point of view a little more. I still abhor it, as my guiding principle is 'do the minimum harm possible',  and I strongly believe her views cause substantial harm, but now I see the point of what do you do when you disagree with a law?

I think for a lot of people, it's not just her refusing to sign it, but the fact she also forbade other people in her office from signing it too. I understand the court is now trying to decide whether to free her now that other deputies have agreed to continue signing certificates, provided she agrees not to interfere with them in that duty.
Actually the court made that offer because she was held in contempt.  She refused it.

southern granny

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Re: Ky Clerk Jailed for refusing to issue marriage license to LGBT couples.
« Reply #178 on: September 07, 2015, 09:01:52 PM »
I am a Christian, and nothing is more important than my faith.   I admire that she has the courage to do what she is doing.  I am in the minority (on this site) and I am okay with that.   Several have commented that she would be voted out of office.  I believe that if another election was held tomorrow,  she would win.  This isn't called the "bible belt" for no reason.  Ms. Davis has a lot of support and not just from Christians, but a lot of people who are just sick of the "political correctness" BS that is being forced down our throats.  I saw a posting on facebook that said apparently everyone can voice their opinion unless they are white, christian, and southern.  That seems to way it is going.

Seppia

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Re: Ky Clerk Jailed for refusing to issue marriage license to LGBT couples.
« Reply #179 on: September 07, 2015, 09:26:04 PM »

I think she should be in jail.

The problem with religion is that it is too random, without any basis in reality.  Tomorrow I can start a religion and start believing in some random stuff.  2000 years later, once I've accumulated enough followers, it starts to look all too real.

Freedom of religion means the freedom to believe in horseshit.  It does NOT mean freedom to act in anyway one wishes to.

Let's talk again when you stick around for two millennia.
Christianity and Scientology are not the same thing, no matter how much the anti-religion jihadist try so say it is.
I believe religion and government should be very separated, but your blanket statement is so superficial

Ms. Davis has a lot of support and not just from Christians, but a lot of people who are just sick of the "political correctness" BS that is being forced down our throats.  I saw a posting on facebook that said apparently everyone can voice their opinion unless they are white, christian, and southern.  That seems to way it is going.

My god there is so much wrong in so few words.
Christians like you help spread the belief that all Christians are living a century ago.


I am a Christian, I hold my beliefs very dear and will democratically fight for them, but if there's a law in my Country I'll either fight to change it or comply  (for example: I am personally against abortion).
And if my job were to make abortions in a state controlled hospital, I would leave my job, not refuse what has been (unfortunately on my opinion) decided is a right.

geekette

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Re: Ky Clerk Jailed for refusing to issue marriage license to LGBT couples.
« Reply #180 on: September 07, 2015, 09:26:59 PM »
I am a Christian, and nothing is more important than my faith.   I admire that she has the courage to do what she is doing.  I am in the minority (on this site) and I am okay with that.   Several have commented that she would be voted out of office.  I believe that if another election was held tomorrow,  she would win.  This isn't called the "bible belt" for no reason.  Ms. Davis has a lot of support and not just from Christians, but a lot of people who are just sick of the "political correctness" BS that is being forced down our throats.  I saw a posting on facebook that said apparently everyone can voice their opinion unless they are white, christian, and southern.  That seems to way it is going.

IMHO, it's not political correctness, it's not doing, nor allowing others to do, the job she was elected to do.  If her faith is that important that she can't do her job, she should step down.  By using her job as a platform, she's the one forcing her particular religion down other's throats.

I'd be surprised if she weren't upset at someone saying their particular religion didn't allow women to drive, therefore she wouldn't be allowed a license.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2015, 07:27:39 AM by geekette »

Flyingkea

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Re: Ky Clerk Jailed for refusing to issue marriage license to LGBT couples.
« Reply #181 on: September 07, 2015, 09:39:52 PM »
The biggest problem is, she is using her religion as an excuse to impose her religious laws upon others, rather than upholding the secular laws of her country.
It's like a muslim forcing her to wear hijab, or a Jew forcing you to follow their religious laws regardless of whether you have the same faith as them.
I didn't realise forcing people to recognise the rights of others was A Bad Thing.

okonumiyaki

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Re: Ky Clerk Jailed for refusing to issue marriage license to LGBT couples.
« Reply #182 on: September 07, 2015, 10:24:38 PM »
So then you would agree that governments should get out of the marriage license  business altogether, repeal the public advantages afforded to married couples in favor of other personal relationships, and let the Christians have their word back, right?

Point of order: The institution and word marriage doesn't belong to, and never has belonged to, Christians.  It predates them, and will most likely outlive them as well.  In fact, same-sex couplings predate both marriage *and* Christianity.

  My point is that the institution of marriage, an undeniablely religious relationship that predates any Earthly government, has had a standard meaning long before we got here. 

Actually not true.  The Christian church in Europe fought a long and hard fight to make marriage a religious relationship, vs the purely civil contract that was marriage under Roman law.  1215 is the date when the Catholic church declares all marriages not in front of a priest invalid.  And in England the church still failed, with courts recognising "common law marriages" that weren't registered until 1753.  In Scottish law you could get married the following ways until 1939, when the government finally introduced civil registration requirement for all marriages

1.Irregular marriage by declaration de presenti—declaring in the presence of two witnesses that one takes someone as one's wife or husband.
 2.Irregular marriage conditional on consummation.
 3.Marriage contracted by correspondence.
 4.Irregular marriage by cohabitation with habit and repute.

I.e. essentially you were married if you said you were married, or people around you though you were

So, it is very deniable that marriage, in the Western legal tradition, is a religious relationship. 
« Last Edit: September 07, 2015, 10:27:25 PM by okonumiyaki »

GuitarStv

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Re: Ky Clerk Jailed for refusing to issue marriage license to LGBT couples.
« Reply #183 on: September 08, 2015, 06:27:38 AM »
The institute of marriage has experienced significant changes over time - even if you're just looking at the bible.  Esau, Moses, Jacob, Elkanah, David, and Solomon all had multiple wives.  If you want to enforce biblical marriage, you should accept polygamy.  If you're not fine with polygamy, you're really just picking and choosing bits from the bible to get worked up about . . . using the text to justify your position rather than deriving your position from the text.

forummm

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Re: Ky Clerk Jailed for refusing to issue marriage license to LGBT couples.
« Reply #184 on: September 08, 2015, 07:55:18 AM »
The institute of marriage has experienced significant changes over time - even if you're just looking at the bible.  Esau, Moses, Jacob, Elkanah, David, and Solomon all had multiple wives.  If you want to enforce biblical marriage, you should accept polygamy.  If you're not fine with polygamy, you're really just picking and choosing bits from the bible to get worked up about . . . using the text to justify your position rather than deriving your position from the text.
Polygamy, forced marriage, women as property, no divorce, etc. Weird how people pick which issues to discriminate on have strongly held religious beliefs about and which ones to conveniently ignore.

Drifterrider

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Re: Ky Clerk Jailed for refusing to issue marriage license to LGBT couples.
« Reply #185 on: September 08, 2015, 01:35:35 PM »

Love wins

Really? Is that what happened?  A woman gets put in prison, not for doing harm to another human being, but for voicing her religious beliefs?  I live here, you guys do know that anyone who wanted to get a marriage license could have just driven 15 miles to the next county over, right?  The marriage license is a state issue, not a county issue; but county clerks represent the state within the county.  No one was actually denied anything here, it was political theater.  This case is going back the Supreme Court, and I suspect quickly.  The very fact that she is in jail, without conviction of an actual crime, automaticly gives her case impetus.  The lawyer for the plaintiffs specificly said she didn't want jail, because it would make her a "martyr".  She was right.  The only people who will win are the lawyers, so the only "love" winning here will be the love of money.

Allow me to pick apart your tirade.

1.  She was not put in prison.  She is being held for contempt of court.  Refusing to follow the court's order.
2.  Not doing harm?  So, if we quash your right to free expression (like posting on this forum) we are not doing harm? 
3.  She denied every who applied a marriage license.  How about if everyone in your county is denied the right to vote in the next election?  No harm done?  Right?
4.  Suggest you actually study the law before you make legal pronouncements.  She is being held for contempt.  That is legal. 
5.  How about this:  All public employees may be allowed to determine who they serve based on their "religious" beliefs?  Think that is a good idea?  What if you need EMS but the responders don't agree with your "lifestyle".  Is it alright for them to let you die?  Your argument seems to support this.

Chris22

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Re: Ky Clerk Jailed for refusing to issue marriage license to LGBT couples.
« Reply #186 on: September 08, 2015, 02:01:28 PM »
"That government is best which governs not at all"; and when men are prepared for it, that will be the kind of government which they will have. "
― Henry David Thoreau

I wholeheartedly agree, which is why I wonder what interest the government has in restricting marriage rights.  You can't be the small government party and demand this sort of meddling.

So then you would agree that governments should get out of the marriage license  business altogether, repeal the public advantages afforded to married couples in favor of other personal relationships, and let the Christians have their word back, right?

I think they should offer the same benefits to all couples who go through the process, no matter their individual orientation or gender or race, and they can call it whatever they want, marriage, civil union, contractual boning, gov't endorsed sexy time, whatever.  Then if you want a church sponsored marriage, go find yourself a church/temple/mosque/dairy queen/swamp/Elvis Chapel which will conduct the ceremony for you. 

Done. 

sheepstache

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Re: Ky Clerk Jailed for refusing to issue marriage license to LGBT couples.
« Reply #187 on: September 08, 2015, 02:14:31 PM »
It's also interesting to me how people's stance on Christian hypocrisy depends on whether they agree with the current cause or not. Millions of American Christians are okay with divorce. Yet they still are understood to practice Christian beliefs. No one's screaming 'hypocrite' at the divorced Christian who celebrates Christmas or who chooses to start a soup kitchen at their church inspired by something the bible said. But if they act in accordance with how they interpret the bible for something we don't agree with, suddenly their "hypocrisy" is a slam dunk argument against them.

And I get frustrated with hypocrisy being used as an argument at all. In one use, hypocrisy is just used to point out contradictory thinking to the person doing the thinking. I absolutely agree that this is useful. It's a great way to get people to reconsider their views.  But as an external argument proving someone wrong, it takes a bit more work than just calling out 'Hypocrite!' to prove someone's position wrong yet I often see people stop there as though they're finished.

 Thomas Jefferson thought slavery was wrong yet he owned slaves. It's hypocrisy because it's contradictory (if you think calling it contradictory is overly simplistic feel free to pick your own example), yet one of those things is wrong and one of those things is right. And simply pointing out that they contradict each other doesn't prove which is which.  Thomas Jefferson owned slaves and yet he believed slavery was wrong. If hypocrisy is the only flaw you're worried about, Jefferson can just decide slavery is okay and now everything is kosher.

GuitarStv

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Re: Ky Clerk Jailed for refusing to issue marriage license to LGBT couples.
« Reply #188 on: September 08, 2015, 02:39:22 PM »
My stance on religion has nothing to do with hypocrisy.  As has been pointed out, most religions are chock full of hypocrisy . . . As long as they aren't hurting anyone else it's none of my business how they want to pick and choose whichever parts of their religion to believe in.  When someone uses their beliefs to justify the harming of someone else though, that's when it's difficult to avoid calling them on their stupidity.

As frustrated as you hate hearing about hypocrisy used as an argument against religion (when that person is hurting someone else), I'm much more frustrated to keep hearing religious justification for being a dick.

sheepstache

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Re: Ky Clerk Jailed for refusing to issue marriage license to LGBT couples.
« Reply #189 on: September 08, 2015, 02:58:58 PM »
My stance on religion has nothing to do with hypocrisy.  As has been pointed out, most religions are chock full of hypocrisy . . . As long as they aren't hurting anyone else it's none of my business how they want to pick and choose whichever parts of their religion to believe in.  When someone uses their beliefs to justify the harming of someone else though, that's when it's difficult to avoid calling them on their stupidity.

As frustrated as you hate hearing about hypocrisy used as an argument against religion (when that person is hurting someone else), I'm much more frustrated to keep hearing religious justification for being a dick.

Whoever is most frustrated wins? :) Sweet!

It's related to my thinking* about people who suddenly care deeply about obeying the law when the law happens to be one they agree with (but celebrate its defiance when it's not) and--and this is the point--they base their entire argument on the fact that a law is being broken. (So, yes, I am attacking hypocrisy here. How hypocritical of me!)

It's also related to my irritation with emphasis on 'genuineness' and 'authenticity.' As though if someone is consistently terrible, then that's okay.

I thought your most recent post went far enough in explaining why you feel it's bad. You didn't just call hypocrisy and quit. I understood that many people who do that in memes and comments may be expecting the audience to fill in the rest of the argument, but that's sloppy.

*See: page 2 &3, or you can order a copy of 'The Sheepstache Collected Correspondence Vol. 6' coming out in 2016 from the American Belles Lettres Society.

Tyson

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Re: Ky Clerk Jailed for refusing to issue marriage license to LGBT couples.
« Reply #190 on: September 08, 2015, 04:54:59 PM »
The institute of marriage has experienced significant changes over time - even if you're just looking at the bible.  Esau, Moses, Jacob, Elkanah, David, and Solomon all had multiple wives.  If you want to enforce biblical marriage, you should accept polygamy.  If you're not fine with polygamy, you're really just picking and choosing bits from the bible to get worked up about . . . using the text to justify your position rather than deriving your position from the text.
Polygamy, forced marriage, women as property, no divorce, etc. Weird how people pick which issues to discriminate on have strongly held religious beliefs about and which ones to conveniently ignore.

To be fair, most of them haven't even read the bible. so they might not even know that they are being hypocritical

Poorman

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Re: Ky Clerk Jailed for refusing to issue marriage license to LGBT couples.
« Reply #191 on: September 08, 2015, 06:22:24 PM »
The institute of marriage has experienced significant changes over time - even if you're just looking at the bible.  Esau, Moses, Jacob, Elkanah, David, and Solomon all had multiple wives.  If you want to enforce biblical marriage, you should accept polygamy.  If you're not fine with polygamy, you're really just picking and choosing bits from the bible to get worked up about . . . using the text to justify your position rather than deriving your position from the text.

I love the Wikipedia cut-and-paste.  Nicely done! :P 

The problem is that just because historically somebody acted a certain way, it does not mean that God commanded or endorsed the behavior, even if the behavior is described as occurring in the Bible.  David also committed adultery and murdered his mistress' husband, for example.  Moses disobeyed God's commands and was denied entry to the Promised Land after 40 years wandering the desert, as another.  In fact, most of the individuals you listed did something terrible to lose favor with God.

So you don't really need to pick and choose bits to get worked up about.  The sections with commands & laws are explicit and the historical passages showing the downfall of men and women for disobeying are explicit, and just because the Bible is full of murderers, adulterers, thieves, prostitutes, and polygamists, doesn't mean that the Bible is endorsing the behavior of those people.  In fact, I think you'll find the opposite is true if you go beyond a cursory Google search.

bacchi

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Re: Ky Clerk Jailed for refusing to issue marriage license to LGBT couples.
« Reply #192 on: September 08, 2015, 06:40:16 PM »
She's free.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/09/08/politics/kim-davis-same-sex-marriage-kentucky/index.html

But I expect she'll be back in the slammer next week.

Gin1984

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Re: Ky Clerk Jailed for refusing to issue marriage license to LGBT couples.
« Reply #193 on: September 08, 2015, 06:42:28 PM »
The institute of marriage has experienced significant changes over time - even if you're just looking at the bible.  Esau, Moses, Jacob, Elkanah, David, and Solomon all had multiple wives.  If you want to enforce biblical marriage, you should accept polygamy.  If you're not fine with polygamy, you're really just picking and choosing bits from the bible to get worked up about . . . using the text to justify your position rather than deriving your position from the text.

I love the Wikipedia cut-and-paste.  Nicely done! :P 

The problem is that just because historically somebody acted a certain way, it does not mean that God commanded or endorsed the behavior, even if the behavior is described as occurring in the Bible.  David also committed adultery and murdered his mistress' husband, for example.  Moses disobeyed God's commands and was denied entry to the Promised Land after 40 years wandering the desert, as another.  In fact, most of the individuals you listed did something terrible to lose favor with God.

So you don't really need to pick and choose bits to get worked up about.  The sections with commands & laws are explicit and the historical passages showing the downfall of men and women for disobeying are explicit, and just because the Bible is full of murderers, adulterers, thieves, prostitutes, and polygamists, doesn't mean that the Bible is endorsing the behavior of those people.  In fact, I think you'll find the opposite is true if you go beyond a cursory Google search.
So when Lot was rescued after offering his daughters up to be raped, that is not seen as an endorsement of his behavior.? Obviously God thought him a good man for he was the only one to survive God killing everyone else in the town.  Including Lot's wife whose only crime was looking back on her previous home (aka disobeying God).  Looks like offering up your daughters to rape is not disobeying God.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2015, 06:47:04 PM by Gin1984 »

Flyingkea

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Re: Ky Clerk Jailed for refusing to issue marriage license to LGBT couples.
« Reply #194 on: September 08, 2015, 07:11:32 PM »
The institute of marriage has experienced significant changes over time - even if you're just looking at the bible.  Esau, Moses, Jacob, Elkanah, David, and Solomon all had multiple wives.  If you want to enforce biblical marriage, you should accept polygamy.  If you're not fine with polygamy, you're really just picking and choosing bits from the bible to get worked up about . . . using the text to justify your position rather than deriving your position from the text.

I love the Wikipedia cut-and-paste.  Nicely done! :P 

The problem is that just because historically somebody acted a certain way, it does not mean that God commanded or endorsed the behavior, even if the behavior is described as occurring in the Bible.  David also committed adultery and murdered his mistress' husband, for example.  Moses disobeyed God's commands and was denied entry to the Promised Land after 40 years wandering the desert, as another.  In fact, most of the individuals you listed did something terrible to lose favor with God.

So you don't really need to pick and choose bits to get worked up about.  The sections with commands & laws are explicit and the historical passages showing the downfall of men and women for disobeying are explicit, and just because the Bible is full of murderers, adulterers, thieves, prostitutes, and polygamists, doesn't mean that the Bible is endorsing the behavior of those people.  In fact, I think you'll find the opposite is true if you go beyond a cursory Google search.
What about God doing mass infanticide?

Travis

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Re: Ky Clerk Jailed for refusing to issue marriage license to LGBT couples.
« Reply #195 on: September 08, 2015, 07:18:37 PM »
She's free.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/09/08/politics/kim-davis-same-sex-marriage-kentucky/index.html

But I expect she'll be back in the slammer next week.

Her lawyer made the claim earlier today that the licenses her deputies signed while she was gone are invalid.  If she goes back to work and does the same thing she did before I fully expect a lawsuit against the state in short order for infringing on the applicants' civil rights and failing to reign her in.

sheepstache

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Re: Ky Clerk Jailed for refusing to issue marriage license to LGBT couples.
« Reply #196 on: September 08, 2015, 08:07:22 PM »
The institute of marriage has experienced significant changes over time - even if you're just looking at the bible.  Esau, Moses, Jacob, Elkanah, David, and Solomon all had multiple wives.  If you want to enforce biblical marriage, you should accept polygamy.  If you're not fine with polygamy, you're really just picking and choosing bits from the bible to get worked up about . . . using the text to justify your position rather than deriving your position from the text.

I love the Wikipedia cut-and-paste.  Nicely done! :P 

The problem is that just because historically somebody acted a certain way, it does not mean that God commanded or endorsed the behavior, even if the behavior is described as occurring in the Bible.  David also committed adultery and murdered his mistress' husband, for example.  Moses disobeyed God's commands and was denied entry to the Promised Land after 40 years wandering the desert, as another.  In fact, most of the individuals you listed did something terrible to lose favor with God.

So you don't really need to pick and choose bits to get worked up about.  The sections with commands & laws are explicit and the historical passages showing the downfall of men and women for disobeying are explicit, and just because the Bible is full of murderers, adulterers, thieves, prostitutes, and polygamists, doesn't mean that the Bible is endorsing the behavior of those people.  In fact, I think you'll find the opposite is true if you go beyond a cursory Google search.

I hear you, but that comment was in response to Moonwaves' position that marriage had historically been such-and-such definition. Some people had offered legal evidence to the contrary. GuitarStv was pointing out that even if your only point of reference was the Bible that you could still see that marriage hasn't historically been "traditional."

GuitarStv

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Re: Ky Clerk Jailed for refusing to issue marriage license to LGBT couples.
« Reply #197 on: September 09, 2015, 06:59:14 AM »
The institute of marriage has experienced significant changes over time - even if you're just looking at the bible.  Esau, Moses, Jacob, Elkanah, David, and Solomon all had multiple wives.  If you want to enforce biblical marriage, you should accept polygamy.  If you're not fine with polygamy, you're really just picking and choosing bits from the bible to get worked up about . . . using the text to justify your position rather than deriving your position from the text.

The problem is that just because historically somebody acted a certain way, it does not mean that God commanded or endorsed the behavior, even if the behavior is described as occurring in the Bible.  David also committed adultery and murdered his mistress' husband, for example.  Moses disobeyed God's commands and was denied entry to the Promised Land after 40 years wandering the desert, as another.  In fact, most of the individuals you listed did something terrible to lose favor with God.

So you don't really need to pick and choose bits to get worked up about.  The sections with commands & laws are explicit and the historical passages showing the downfall of men and women for disobeying are explicit, and just because the Bible is full of murderers, adulterers, thieves, prostitutes, and polygamists, doesn't mean that the Bible is endorsing the behavior of those people.  In fact, I think you'll find the opposite is true if you go beyond a cursory Google search.

I don't really care what you claim your God supposedly endorses.  You're missing my point entirely.  There was someone saying that traditional marriage is between one man and a woman.  Even according to the (questionable) history in the bible, that's not the way people were traditionally married.  Typically the older sections of the bible indicate that polygamy was the norm.

If you want to get all 'traditional' with marriage (from the biblical record), you need to support polygamy.  The only way you can call monogamy 'traditional' is if you pick and choose sections of text to ignore/pay attention to.

Poorman

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Re: Ky Clerk Jailed for refusing to issue marriage license to LGBT couples.
« Reply #198 on: September 09, 2015, 06:59:42 PM »
So when Lot was rescued after offering his daughters up to be raped, that is not seen as an endorsement of his behavior.? Obviously God thought him a good man for he was the only one to survive God killing everyone else in the town.  Including Lot's wife whose only crime was looking back on her previous home (aka disobeying God).  Looks like offering up your daughters to rape is not disobeying God.

If God endorsed Lot's behavior then why did the two strangers (angels) pull Lot back inside, bar the door, and strike the mob with blindness?  Wouldn't the angels have let the gang rape occur if God endorsed Lot's idea of offering the two daughters up, in lieu of the two men, as substitute rape victims?

What about God doing mass infanticide?

God repeatedly passed judgement on wicked nations throughout the Old Testament by wiping them off the map (including Israel).  In the instances where nations were so incredibly evil that they were deemed beyond saving, he would command that everybody be destroyed: men, women, children, and livestock.  Several of these nations were already sacrificing and torturing their children as human offerings, and engaging in bestiality and temple prostitution, so they weren't just peace-loving innocents chosen randomly for destruction.  They were the worst of the worst and God decided to wipe them from the face of the earth rather than let their evil continue to propagate.

So, no, as a general practice the Bible does not condone infanticide.  "Thou shalt not murder" makes that clear.  There are some limited instances, however, where it was commanded as part of a campaign to eliminate an evil nation from continuing to exist.

I don't really care what you claim your God supposedly endorses.  You're missing my point entirely.  There was someone saying that traditional marriage is between one man and a woman.  Even according to the (questionable) history in the bible, that's not the way people were traditionally married.  Typically the older sections of the bible indicate that polygamy was the norm.

If you want to get all 'traditional' with marriage (from the biblical record), you need to support polygamy.  The only way you can call monogamy 'traditional' is if you pick and choose sections of text to ignore/pay attention to.

This is a bit of a straw man on your part.  Polygamy certainly occurred in Biblical times, but the norm for marriage is established in the second chapter of the Bible and again reinforced by Jesus during his ministry.  The fact that people chose to stray from that model, along with a host of other bad choices, is the basis for the overarching narrative of the Bible.

Gin1984

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Re: Ky Clerk Jailed for refusing to issue marriage license to LGBT couples.
« Reply #199 on: September 09, 2015, 07:31:35 PM »
So when Lot was rescued after offering his daughters up to be raped, that is not seen as an endorsement of his behavior.? Obviously God thought him a good man for he was the only one to survive God killing everyone else in the town.  Including Lot's wife whose only crime was looking back on her previous home (aka disobeying God).  Looks like offering up your daughters to rape is not disobeying God.

If God endorsed Lot's behavior then why did the two strangers (angels) pull Lot back inside, bar the door, and strike the mob with blindness?  Wouldn't the angels have let the gang rape occur if God endorsed Lot's idea of offering the two daughters up, in lieu of the two men, as substitute rape victims?

Because the mob was threatening the strangers themselves.  Again, explain how not killing Lot for that offer yet killing everyone else including his wife (for no wrong except looking back) and how that could be anything other than endorsement.  All the "evil" people were killed in his city, he was only saved because of his goodness.  Anyone who thinks offering up your daughter to be raped is the behavior of a good man has an issue was reality.

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!