Are women done with men?

[Metalcat]

Oh shit!

I never even mentioned the moral injury trauma that SA victims typically have. One of the strongest trauma responses is the sense of personal failure in not doing anything/enough in response to the perpetrator, and living with the moral injury that self-preservation often requires staying quiet.

This is probably the most insidious trauma mechanism of a lot of sexual assault/harrassment cases.

We only understand moral injury trauma thanks to the military trying to figure out why all of their trauma protocols were failing. But it manifests as an under appreciated trauma source in a number of victim scenarios.

[LennStar]

Different cases of sexual violation *are* different, but how much trauma they cause is not quite as simple as a lot of non-victims assume them to be. It's complex, and a lot of the level of damage comes down to the power roles involved and how reasonably the person expected to be safe.

I work with victims all the time, and many who experienced "lesser" attacks are confused and feel shame over having such severe reactions, but that's because our society doesn't really understand trauma very well.

Sexual violation trauma is extremely complex. To put it into perspectives be, most therapists are not even considered experts in trauma.

So you can say it's complex, but I cannot (as someone else said)? Okay ;)

That aside, what we are talking about has also a legal side, and I think that was thrown together with the moral or trauma side too much.

In legal terms there is a clear distinction, as with all other crimes. I wont try to find the correct one in a different language and jurisdiction, but hitting someone with a hand and the person say "ouch" is different to hitting them with an iron bar and breaking a bone.

The same is true around the topic of sexual assaults.
In both cases the law allows for variation in the sentence, partly based on the trauma of the victim.

Does anyone here say that this should be legally handled differently? That touching a butt should carry the same x-year sentence as rape? If yes, what is the argumentation?

[nereo]

Does anyone here say that this should be legally handled differently? That touching a butt should carry the same x-year sentence as rape? If yes, what is the argumentation?

I'm trying to figure out why you would want to discuss the legal punishments for sexual assault vs rape, and the only conclusion I can come to is that you wish to argue that because sexual assault (or harassment) carries a lesser legal punishment than rape, that therefore SA victims who were not raped should feel less trauma than a rape victim.

...and therein lies the problem. The legal penalty for a crime doesn't determine the trauma its victims experience.  That's not how it works.

Or were you trying to make a different point here?

[Metalcat]

Different cases of sexual violation *are* different, but how much trauma they cause is not quite as simple as a lot of non-victims assume them to be. It's complex, and a lot of the level of damage comes down to the power roles involved and how reasonably the person expected to be safe.

I work with victims all the time, and many who experienced "lesser" attacks are confused and feel shame over having such severe reactions, but that's because our society doesn't really understand trauma very well.

Sexual violation trauma is extremely complex. To put it into perspectives be, most therapists are not even considered experts in trauma.

So you can say it's complex, but I cannot (as someone else said)? Okay ;)

That aside, what we are talking about has also a legal side, and I think that was thrown together with the moral or trauma side too much.

In legal terms there is a clear distinction, as with all other crimes. I wont try to find the correct one in a different language and jurisdiction, but hitting someone with a hand and the person say "ouch" is different to hitting them with an iron bar and breaking a bone.

The same is true around the topic of sexual assaults.
In both cases the law allows for variation in the sentence, partly based on the trauma of the victim.

Does anyone here say that this should be legally handled differently? That touching a butt should carry the same x-year sentence as rape? If yes, what is the argumentation?

Where did I say you couldn't call sexual assault complex?

Where did I say anything about legal charges??

I can't make any sense of this response to my post. None.

[GuitarStv]

Does anyone here say that this should be legally handled differently? That touching a butt should carry the same x-year sentence as rape? If yes, what is the argumentation?

I'm trying to figure out why you would want to discuss the legal punishments for sexual assault vs rape, and the only conclusion I can come to is that you wish to argue that because sexual assault (or harassment) carries a lesser legal punishment than rape, that therefore SA victims who were not raped should feel less trauma than a rape victim.

...and therein lies the problem. The legal penalty for a crime doesn't determine the trauma its victims experience.  That's not how it works.

Or were you trying to make a different point here?

The legal charges for rape and sexual assault are not proportional to the emotional damage that the acts cause.

[Kris]

I get the feeling that it might be easier for men (and maybe specifically white men) to believe that the legal punishments established for crimes are an objective indicator of how “bad” those crimes are relative to each other, and that there is some sort of linear sliding scale of badness on which every crime can be placed, which corresponds to the sentencing length of that crime.

[RetiredAt63]

I get the feeling that it might be easier for men (and maybe specifically white men) to believe that the legal punishments established for crimes are an objective indicator of how “bad” those crimes are relative to each other, and that there is some sort of linear sliding scale of badness on which every crime can be placed, which corresponds to the sentencing length of that crime.

Same for other crimes.  If someone steal $500 from someone who makes 500,000/year, it hurts the victim a lot less than if the amount stolen is still 500 but the annual income is $50,000/year.

[Villanelle]

I get the feeling that it might be easier for men (and maybe specifically white men) to believe that the legal punishments established for crimes are an objective indicator of how “bad” those crimes are relative to each other, and that there is some sort of linear sliding scale of badness on which every crime can be placed, which corresponds to the sentencing length of that crime.

And that every victim's feelings should align perfectly with the sliding scale of legal punishments.  As though that's how emotions and trauma work."So that's a 15-month prison sentence max, which means you get to be upset at a 3.7 level on a 10-point scale, and you must be done processing everything and over it all by... [checks chart]... 7.8 months after the incident occurred." 

[LennStar]

I get the feeling that it might be easier for men (and maybe specifically white men) to believe that the legal punishments established for crimes are an objective indicator of how “bad” those crimes are relative to each other, and that there is some sort of linear sliding scale of badness on which every crime can be placed, which corresponds to the sentencing length of that crime.

That is how it should be. The severity of the punishment should be linear (as far as you can do that) to the severity of the crime.

Where did I say you couldn't call sexual assault complex?

Where did I say anything about legal charges??

I can't make any sense of this response to my post. None.

That is why I exlictly said someone else.

My impression was that you (and others) were of the opinion that every sort of sexual assult should have the same punishment because they all can cause severe trauma.

To clarify if that is what you meant I asked

That touching a butt should carry the same x-year sentence as rape? If yes, what is the argumentation?

[GuitarStv]

I get the feeling that it might be easier for men (and maybe specifically white men) to believe that the legal punishments established for crimes are an objective indicator of how “bad” those crimes are relative to each other, and that there is some sort of linear sliding scale of badness on which every crime can be placed, which corresponds to the sentencing length of that crime.

Same for other crimes.  If someone steal $500 from someone who makes 500,000/year, it hurts the victim a lot less than if the amount stolen is still 500 but the annual income is $50,000/year.

Yes, exactly.  This is a problem I've always had with fines for stuff like traffic offenses.  A rich dude who gets a speeding ticket doesn't really give a crap but a person barely scraping by might have their life ruined by getting the ticket.  It's why I think that fines of this sort should be pro-rated based on income or wealth in some way.

[RWD]

I get the feeling that it might be easier for men (and maybe specifically white men) to believe that the legal punishments established for crimes are an objective indicator of how “bad” those crimes are relative to each other, and that there is some sort of linear sliding scale of badness on which every crime can be placed, which corresponds to the sentencing length of that crime.

Same for other crimes.  If someone steal $500 from someone who makes 500,000/year, it hurts the victim a lot less than if the amount stolen is still 500 but the annual income is $50,000/year.

Yes, exactly.  This is a problem I've always had with fines for stuff like traffic offenses.  A rich dude who gets a speeding ticket doesn't really give a crap but a person barely scraping by might have their life ruined by getting the ticket.  It's why I think that fines of this sort should be pro-rated based on income or wealth in some way.

There are countries that do this
https://www.onlygoodnewsdaily.com/post/world-s-most-expensive-speeding-ticket

[nereo]

I get the feeling that it might be easier for men (and maybe specifically white men) to believe that the legal punishments established for crimes are an objective indicator of how “bad” those crimes are relative to each other, and that there is some sort of linear sliding scale of badness on which every crime can be placed, which corresponds to the sentencing length of that crime.

That is how it should be. The severity of the punishment should be linear (as far as you can do that) to the severity of the crime.

But here’s where that breaks down: the law is primarily concerned with what the perpetrator did (or tried to do), whether it was pre-meditated and if the perpetrator shows remorse. The impacts on their victims are secondary considerations, because the law is primarily concerned with intent and actions.

That may explain your question about why sexual assault (or as you casually put it “touching a butt”)carries a different sentence than rape. This doesn’t mean that SA trauma is lesser than from rape, or proportional in the same way that legal sentencing is.

[Villanelle]

I get the feeling that it might be easier for men (and maybe specifically white men) to believe that the legal punishments established for crimes are an objective indicator of how “bad” those crimes are relative to each other, and that there is some sort of linear sliding scale of badness on which every crime can be placed, which corresponds to the sentencing length of that crime.

That is how it should be. The severity of the punishment should be linear (as far as you can do that) to the severity of the crime.

Where did I say you couldn't call sexual assault complex?

Where did I say anything about legal charges??

I can't make any sense of this response to my post. None.

That is why I exlictly said someone else.

My impression was that you (and others) were of the opinion that every sort of sexual assult should have the same punishment because they all can cause severe trauma.

To clarify if that is what you meant I asked

That touching a butt should carry the same x-year sentence as rape? If yes, what is the argumentation?

But what does "severity of the crime" even mean, really.

I think it's worth pointing out here that in criminal cases, "the state" is the legal party opposite the defendant, not the victim.  The judicial system seeks to punish a person for "sinning" against the state, not against a human victim.  So it measures the severity of the crime to The State, or the general concept that you might call "good order and decency", or something like that.  Criminal courts may look at victim impact when considering punishment, but it's not the primary concern. 

So the criminal justice system is about "severity" in terms of society, not in terms of the specific, individual victim. 

I won't speak for others, but while I think that someone who has their butt grabbed could conceivably be more traumatized than another person who was raped, I don't think that should weigh heavily in the legal punishment.  (To be clear, I think that balance of trauma, if we could even really measure such things, is common, but I do think it's possible.) And I certainly don't think that means butt-grabbing should have the same sentence as rape.

The legal system does try to tie the severity of punishment to the severity of the crime.  But it's mostly to the severity of the crime *against the state*, not as experienced by the victim. 

I think the comment about a linear scale with severity of crimes speaks, in part, to how different people experience things differently, and that there's no way the criminal justice system could measure that and punish accordingly, even if that's what we wanted the system to do.  I ready that comment as saying that just because the prison sentence for X is 1.293 times longer than the sentence for Y, you don't know that the victim of X is 1.293 times more traumatized than the victim of Y. 

Imagine a woman who comes from an extremely sheltered cult that tells her the moment she is touched by a man other than her husband, she's worthless and better off dead.  To her, butt-grabbing (aka sexual assault--call a spade a spade) might be more traumatic than the trauma level of experience of a 15-year-old girl who had consensual sex with her long-term boyfriend who is 19, who is guilty of rape (statutory rape is rape). 

Can I fully believe and accept that the former victim's trauma level is higher than the latter's? Sure.  Do I think that means the sexual assaulter (aka "butt grabber) should serve a longer sentence?  Not usually, no. 

[PoutineLover]

Oof this whole discussion very clearly reveals who has never been sexually assaulted or even considered it as a possibility, and not in a good way. There's no point even comparing the penalty for "touching a butt" vs rape because no one ever gets in trouble for "lesser" sexual assaults, and there's barely any punishment for most rapes.

I never even considered reporting the guy who slapped my ass as I was walking down the street with friends, and that guy probably got a high five from his buddies while I walked away powerless to do anything about it.

When I called the police about a former classmate who sent me a graphic video of himself, I was asked if we had ever gone on a date(no, and why should it matter), and then they had to look up in their book whether it was even a crime. Obviously nothing came of reporting that.

It all adds up over time and it's a huge privilege that most men have that most of them aren't aware of the endless types of assaults that most women see as commonplace.

[Villanelle]

Oof this whole discussion very clearly reveals who has never been sexually assaulted or even considered it as a possibility, and not in a good way. There's no point even comparing the penalty for "touching a butt" vs rape because no one ever gets in trouble for "lesser" sexual assaults, and there's barely any punishment for most rapes.

I never even considered reporting the guy who slapped my ass as I was walking down the street with friends, and that guy probably got a high five from his buddies while I walked away powerless to do anything about it.

When I called the police about a former classmate who sent me a graphic video of himself, I was asked if we had ever gone on a date(no, and why should it matter), and then they had to look up in their book whether it was even a crime. Obviously nothing came of reporting that.

It all adds up over time and it's a huge privilege that most men have that most of them aren't aware of the endless types of assaults that most women see as commonplace.

It's also frustrating (and reason number eleventy hundred when some women are "done with men"), that some men can't seem to comprehend that having your butt grabbed when you are in a general position of power and strength, when you are likely physically stronger, when you haven't spent your whole life fighting against that kind of thing, when you don't have a history or assault and harassment upon which that assault is layered, and all the other differences, is just NOT the same as the way a woman is likely to experience an otherwise comparable "butt grab".  It might be easy for most men to brush off a butt grab, to feel unbothered by it, or even to feel somewhat flattered.  (To be clear, I'm not saying all men would be unbothered by it.  Or that all women wouldn't be.)

But context fucking matters. And a lifetime of assaults and harassment and misogyny and fighting to be taken seriously and mansplaining and not being taken seriously and being objectified and being fearful and wondering if a minor insult will escalate--especially if you act in a way that the assailant doesn't like? That's context, and it really matters in how someone experiences a seemingly minor assault like a butt grab. 

[GuitarStv]

Oof this whole discussion very clearly reveals who has never been sexually assaulted or even considered it as a possibility, and not in a good way. There's no point even comparing the penalty for "touching a butt" vs rape because no one ever gets in trouble for "lesser" sexual assaults, and there's barely any punishment for most rapes.

I never even considered reporting the guy who slapped my ass as I was walking down the street with friends, and that guy probably got a high five from his buddies while I walked away powerless to do anything about it.

When I called the police about a former classmate who sent me a graphic video of himself, I was asked if we had ever gone on a date(no, and why should it matter), and then they had to look up in their book whether it was even a crime. Obviously nothing came of reporting that.

It all adds up over time and it's a huge privilege that most men have that most of them aren't aware of the endless types of assaults that most women see as commonplace.

It's also frustrating (and reason number eleventy hundred when some women are "done with men"), that some men can't seem to comprehend that having your butt grabbed when you are in a general position of power and strength, when you are likely physically stronger, when you haven't spent your whole life fighting against that kind of thing, when you don't have a history or assault and harassment upon which that assault is layered, and all the other differences, is just NOT the same as the way a woman is likely to experience an otherwise comparable "butt grab".  It might be easy for most men to brush off a butt grab, to feel unbothered by it, or even to feel somewhat flattered.  (To be clear, I'm not saying all men would be unbothered by it.  Or that all women wouldn't be.)

But context fucking matters. And a lifetime of assaults and harassment and misogyny and fighting to be taken seriously and mansplaining and not being taken seriously and being objectified and being fearful and wondering if a minor insult will escalate--especially if you act in a way that the assailant doesn't like? That's context, and it really matters in how someone experiences a seemingly minor assault like a butt grab.

Hmm.  So a strong woman being grabbed by a weak man should feel unbothered or maybe flattered?  I didn't feel either when I had my crotch grabbed by a woman while dancing . . . but it's not like there was anything I could do about it, so I kind of just ignored it and moved elsewhere.

[RetiredAt63]

Oof this whole discussion very clearly reveals who has never been sexually assaulted or even considered it as a possibility, and not in a good way. There's no point even comparing the penalty for "touching a butt" vs rape because no one ever gets in trouble for "lesser" sexual assaults, and there's barely any punishment for most rapes.

I never even considered reporting the guy who slapped my ass as I was walking down the street with friends, and that guy probably got a high five from his buddies while I walked away powerless to do anything about it.

When I called the police about a former classmate who sent me a graphic video of himself, I was asked if we had ever gone on a date(no, and why should it matter), and then they had to look up in their book whether it was even a crime. Obviously nothing came of reporting that.

It all adds up over time and it's a huge privilege that most men have that most of them aren't aware of the endless types of assaults that most women see as commonplace.

It's all the unwanted touching that we haven't consented to.  We get hugged, our hair gets patted,  people feel free to touch our shoulder, our arm, our knee.  It's like our bodies are public property.  Various levels of sexual assault are just further along the continuum. 

Actually,  anyone telling a woman to smile also thinks our looks and smiles and cooperation are public property.  How dare a woman dampen someone's mood because she isn't smiling. Or not engage in casual conversation.

DD is happy and surprised that I won't push my granddaughter for any physical intimacy, but I respect her body autonomy and want her to grow up knowing she doesn't have to hug/kiss whatever  anyone,  or be forced to receive the hugs and kisses and whatever from anyone.

[Villanelle]

Oof this whole discussion very clearly reveals who has never been sexually assaulted or even considered it as a possibility, and not in a good way. There's no point even comparing the penalty for "touching a butt" vs rape because no one ever gets in trouble for "lesser" sexual assaults, and there's barely any punishment for most rapes.

I never even considered reporting the guy who slapped my ass as I was walking down the street with friends, and that guy probably got a high five from his buddies while I walked away powerless to do anything about it.

When I called the police about a former classmate who sent me a graphic video of himself, I was asked if we had ever gone on a date(no, and why should it matter), and then they had to look up in their book whether it was even a crime. Obviously nothing came of reporting that.

It all adds up over time and it's a huge privilege that most men have that most of them aren't aware of the endless types of assaults that most women see as commonplace.

It's also frustrating (and reason number eleventy hundred when some women are "done with men"), that some men can't seem to comprehend that having your butt grabbed when you are in a general position of power and strength, when you are likely physically stronger, when you haven't spent your whole life fighting against that kind of thing, when you don't have a history or assault and harassment upon which that assault is layered, and all the other differences, is just NOT the same as the way a woman is likely to experience an otherwise comparable "butt grab".  It might be easy for most men to brush off a butt grab, to feel unbothered by it, or even to feel somewhat flattered.  (To be clear, I'm not saying all men would be unbothered by it.  Or that all women wouldn't be.)

But context fucking matters. And a lifetime of assaults and harassment and misogyny and fighting to be taken seriously and mansplaining and not being taken seriously and being objectified and being fearful and wondering if a minor insult will escalate--especially if you act in a way that the assailant doesn't like? That's context, and it really matters in how someone experiences a seemingly minor assault like a butt grab.

Hmm.  So a strong woman being grabbed by a weak man should feel unbothered or maybe flattered?  I didn't feel either when I had my crotch grabbed by a woman while dancing . . . but it's not like there was anything I could do about it, so I kind of just ignored it and moved elsewhere.

I genuinely can't tell if you like to pretend to be obtuse or you just can't comprehend things outside your own biases or you read some words, draw a conclusion, and stop reading.  Or if you like to play gotcha based on strawmen. Or maybe all of these?  Of course I didn't say a strong woman (whatever the fuck that even means) shouldn't feel bothered and should feel flattered.  Of course I didn't say that.  Strength was ONE of the many factors I listed as possibly affecting the way a woman would experience something differently than a man.  And even then, I think it's pretty clear I wasn't talking in definites about the way either men or women would ALL experience a situation.

I was laying out the context of many--not all-- women's lives that might make her experience that assault differently than most men would experience it. (And in case you want to be obtuse again, note the words "many--not all_, "might", and "most" there.)

Even if a woman is physically stronger than a man, it's very, very, very likely that many of the other factors on that list apply to her life.  And affect the way she would experience that attack. 

Bully for you that you just moved on and kept dancing.  Are you saying that's how all women should respond to assaults?  Are you saying that the context of your entire life experiences, compared to the context of most women's life experiences, would have no affect at all on how she might experience a crotch grab, compared to how you experienced it?  That the fact that this happened to you one or a few times, compared to the fact that it's happend to her dozens of times doesn't matter?  That the fact that she's seen a crotch grab turn unti a brutal attack, or maybe even experiened that herself, shouldn't matter?  The fact that she was catcalled, told she should show off her tits more, told she was a slut for showing off her tits, and told to "smile more", all on her way into the club that night shouldn't affect how she experiences that? Etc., etc., etc., etc., etc.

Do you really think that for most women, the experience of having their crotch grabbed is about the same as it is for a man who has his crotch grabbed?  That sexism, misogyny, a history of sexist bullshit, a history of sexual assault (which I feel the need to say men can clearly also have, so you can't pounce on that and be an ass about it, a history of being demeaned or ignored at work, a history of having men on message boards being obtuse and ridiculous about conversations about women's experiences, a history of having our agency questioned and removed, a history of being objectified, etc., etc., etc. etc., etc.--have no role in how someone experiences assault and that maybe as a result, men shouldn't try to equate how a woman experiences those things with how they do?

[GuitarStv]

There has been a repeated tendency to discuss this problem as a male vs female thing where I believe that it goes much deeper.  It's ingrained in our culture.  Violations (be they objectification, insult, assault, slight unwanted physical contact) - these things happen across genders.  I believe that this should be taken seriously regardless of what the person's personal history is.  I'd even argue that someone brushing off an assault as no big deal (because they're physically stronger, don't have a history of objectification, haven't experienced much sexism, etc.) is probably a sign of the problem itself.

Someone who brushes things off as no big deal is going to expect others to do the same.  Rather than try to guess at someone else's history of trauma and past experiences, or trying to argue that one person doesn't feel as much trauma as another because reasons . . . maybe we should just draw a line in the sand for all.

[Villanelle]

There has been a repeated tendency to discuss this problem as a male vs female thing where I believe that it goes much deeper.  It's ingrained in our culture.  Violations (be they objectification, insult, assault, slight unwanted physical contact) - these things happen across genders.  I believe that this should be taken seriously regardless of what the person's personal history is.  I'd even argue that someone brushing off an assault as no big deal (because they're physically stronger, don't have a history of objectification, haven't experienced much sexism, etc.) is probably a sign of the problem itself.

Someone who brushes things off as no big deal is going to expect others to do the same.  Rather than try to guess at someone else's history of trauma and past experiences, or trying to argue that one person doesn't feel as much trauma as another because reasons . . . maybe we should just draw a line in the sand for all.

I never said men's and boy's assaults shouldn't be take seriously.  I didn't say that, and I don't believe that.  I never said, and don't think that those crimes shouldn't be prosecuted.

You are reading things that aren't there. 

And I thought I'd make it clear and acknowledged that there is no ONE way to experience or react to assaults or rape.  I'm not saying, and don't believe, that a man or boy can't be deeply traumatized by those experiences.  There is a line in the sand for all, which is that these things aren't okay and should be prosecuted. 

If you don't think that the average experiences of a woman color the way she experiences the world--not just assaults and rapes, but any manner of things--I don't know what else to say. And if you do think that, then I'm not sure what your issue is what what I wrote.


I'm not advocating brushing anything off.  If anything, you are the one who suggested you brushed off your assault.  You said you ignored it and moved elsewhere.  I didn't brush it off.  I didn't say it was okay, acceptable, or no big deal.  I didn't say you shouldn't feel traumatized. 

[Metalcat]

Oof this whole discussion very clearly reveals who has never been sexually assaulted or even considered it as a possibility, and not in a good way. There's no point even comparing the penalty for "touching a butt" vs rape because no one ever gets in trouble for "lesser" sexual assaults, and there's barely any punishment for most rapes.

I never even considered reporting the guy who slapped my ass as I was walking down the street with friends, and that guy probably got a high five from his buddies while I walked away powerless to do anything about it.

When I called the police about a former classmate who sent me a graphic video of himself, I was asked if we had ever gone on a date(no, and why should it matter), and then they had to look up in their book whether it was even a crime. Obviously nothing came of reporting that.

It all adds up over time and it's a huge privilege that most men have that most of them aren't aware of the endless types of assaults that most women see as commonplace.

There's also a shocking absence of any compassion or concern for the folks sharing their victimization.

If we were talking about fraud and members here shared stories of losing 5-6 figures from being the victim of fraud and they shared their personal accounts in a thread about the topic, I can pretty much guarantee that folks around here would be like "fuck dude, that's awful, I can't believe that happened to you."

But time and time again, whenever this topic comes up and a bunch of community members share their personal experience with traumatic shit it's only handled as if it's a point of argument, and there's an utter callous disinterest in understanding shit that fellow community members have been through.

A group of women here consistently offer to share information about extremely personal and extremely painful shit and everyone treats it like data points, not human beings.

The PM's I'm getting are intense. Women who are feeling seen and understood by those of us in this thread willing to keep talking despite the fact that every time we do here it feels like getting kicked in the teeth.

Maybe consider acting a bit more like a community?

Like, maybe, just maybe, when someone you've been speaking to for years says "well when I was raped/assaulted/harassed" take a second to say "I'm so sorry that happened to you" before focusing on how to win your argument.

Just...care? Please?

[Kris]

Oof this whole discussion very clearly reveals who has never been sexually assaulted or even considered it as a possibility, and not in a good way. There's no point even comparing the penalty for "touching a butt" vs rape because no one ever gets in trouble for "lesser" sexual assaults, and there's barely any punishment for most rapes.

I never even considered reporting the guy who slapped my ass as I was walking down the street with friends, and that guy probably got a high five from his buddies while I walked away powerless to do anything about it.

When I called the police about a former classmate who sent me a graphic video of himself, I was asked if we had ever gone on a date(no, and why should it matter), and then they had to look up in their book whether it was even a crime. Obviously nothing came of reporting that.

It all adds up over time and it's a huge privilege that most men have that most of them aren't aware of the endless types of assaults that most women see as commonplace.

There's also a shocking absence of any compassion or concern for the folks sharing their victimization.

If we were talking about fraud and members here shared stories of losing 5-6 figures from being the victim of fraud and they shared their personal accounts in a thread about the topic, I can pretty much guarantee that folks around here would be like "fuck dude, that's awful, I can't believe that happened to you."

But time and time again, whenever this topic comes up and a bunch of community members share their personal experience with traumatic shit it's only handled as if it's a point of argument, and there's an utter callous disinterest in understanding shit that fellow community members have been through.

A group of women here consistently offer to share information about extremely personal and extremely painful shit and everyone treats it like data points, not human beings.

The PM's I'm getting are intense. Women who are feeling seen and understood by those of us in this thread willing to keep talking despite the fact that every time we do here it feels like getting kicked in the teeth.

Maybe consider acting a bit more like a community?

Like, maybe, just maybe, when someone you've been speaking to for years says "well when I was raped/assaulted/harassed" take a second to say "I'm so sorry that happened to you" before focusing on how to win your argument.

Just...care? Please?

Also worth making it explicit that there are women DMing other women instead of commenting themselves, probably because they don’t feel safe to do so as a result of some of what the other commenters are saying here.

[Metalcat]

There has been a repeated tendency to discuss this problem as a male vs female thing where I believe that it goes much deeper.  It's ingrained in our culture.  Violations (be they objectification, insult, assault, slight unwanted physical contact) - these things happen across genders.  I believe that this should be taken seriously regardless of what the person's personal history is.  I'd even argue that someone brushing off an assault as no big deal (because they're physically stronger, don't have a history of objectification, haven't experienced much sexism, etc.) is probably a sign of the problem itself.

Someone who brushes things off as no big deal is going to expect others to do the same.  Rather than try to guess at someone else's history of trauma and past experiences, or trying to argue that one person doesn't feel as much trauma as another because reasons . . . maybe we should just draw a line in the sand for all.

This response also makes zero sense to me.

I was very clear in my post that the ability to brush it off is also problematic.

I also said absolutely nothing about the fact that trauma is experienced differently meaning we should conceptualize assault differently.

Seriously, how did you even get that from what I wrote??

My whole point was that the trauma experienced by victims of sexual violation is complex and not as simple as p-in-v equals worse for the victim than ass-groping.

I shared very specific scenarios to illustrate that point. But it's all bad, the line in the sand is that it's ALL BAD. 

I'm so confused by your response...this thread is doing my head in...

[Metalcat]

Oof this whole discussion very clearly reveals who has never been sexually assaulted or even considered it as a possibility, and not in a good way. There's no point even comparing the penalty for "touching a butt" vs rape because no one ever gets in trouble for "lesser" sexual assaults, and there's barely any punishment for most rapes.

I never even considered reporting the guy who slapped my ass as I was walking down the street with friends, and that guy probably got a high five from his buddies while I walked away powerless to do anything about it.

When I called the police about a former classmate who sent me a graphic video of himself, I was asked if we had ever gone on a date(no, and why should it matter), and then they had to look up in their book whether it was even a crime. Obviously nothing came of reporting that.

It all adds up over time and it's a huge privilege that most men have that most of them aren't aware of the endless types of assaults that most women see as commonplace.

There's also a shocking absence of any compassion or concern for the folks sharing their victimization.

If we were talking about fraud and members here shared stories of losing 5-6 figures from being the victim of fraud and they shared their personal accounts in a thread about the topic, I can pretty much guarantee that folks around here would be like "fuck dude, that's awful, I can't believe that happened to you."

But time and time again, whenever this topic comes up and a bunch of community members share their personal experience with traumatic shit it's only handled as if it's a point of argument, and there's an utter callous disinterest in understanding shit that fellow community members have been through.

A group of women here consistently offer to share information about extremely personal and extremely painful shit and everyone treats it like data points, not human beings.

The PM's I'm getting are intense. Women who are feeling seen and understood by those of us in this thread willing to keep talking despite the fact that every time we do here it feels like getting kicked in the teeth.

Maybe consider acting a bit more like a community?

Like, maybe, just maybe, when someone you've been speaking to for years says "well when I was raped/assaulted/harassed" take a second to say "I'm so sorry that happened to you" before focusing on how to win your argument.

Just...care? Please?

Also worth making it explicit that there are women DMing other women instead of commenting themselves, probably because they don’t feel safe to do so as a result of some of what the other commenters are saying here.

That too.

I can say with absolute clarity that many women here DO NOT find this community a comfortable space to share their experiences when these topics come up.

A big part of *why* I'm so vocal is because of the kind of PM's I've gotten over the years in response to how the men here discuss this very topic.

I doubt many of us women participate because we want to, but we feel a responsibility to. It's never fucking pleasant though.

[RetiredAt63]

I'm on my tablet so quoting is hard.

The responsibility Metalcat just posted about is why Gisele Pelicot is having an open trial.  She has said publicly that it is for all the women who don't have all the evidence she has.

And the mayor of her town thinks it isn't that bad because she didn't die.   




People here who are in Europe,  what is the reaction to the trial?

[RetiredAt63]

Re consent, at least one defendent in her trial has testified he thought it was ok because her husband was there.  So apparently a woman's consent is not needed if her husband gives consent for her.

Lovely, every husband can pimp his wife out whatever her views.  And if you think that is nasty sarcasm,  it is nothing compared to what I edited out.  Because too many men still see us as property.

[Tyson]

Oof this whole discussion very clearly reveals who has never been sexually assaulted or even considered it as a possibility, and not in a good way. There's no point even comparing the penalty for "touching a butt" vs rape because no one ever gets in trouble for "lesser" sexual assaults, and there's barely any punishment for most rapes.

I never even considered reporting the guy who slapped my ass as I was walking down the street with friends, and that guy probably got a high five from his buddies while I walked away powerless to do anything about it.

When I called the police about a former classmate who sent me a graphic video of himself, I was asked if we had ever gone on a date(no, and why should it matter), and then they had to look up in their book whether it was even a crime. Obviously nothing came of reporting that.

It all adds up over time and it's a huge privilege that most men have that most of them aren't aware of the endless types of assaults that most women see as commonplace.

There's also a shocking absence of any compassion or concern for the folks sharing their victimization.

If we were talking about fraud and members here shared stories of losing 5-6 figures from being the victim of fraud and they shared their personal accounts in a thread about the topic, I can pretty much guarantee that folks around here would be like "fuck dude, that's awful, I can't believe that happened to you."

But time and time again, whenever this topic comes up and a bunch of community members share their personal experience with traumatic shit it's only handled as if it's a point of argument, and there's an utter callous disinterest in understanding shit that fellow community members have been through.

A group of women here consistently offer to share information about extremely personal and extremely painful shit and everyone treats it like data points, not human beings.

The PM's I'm getting are intense. Women who are feeling seen and understood by those of us in this thread willing to keep talking despite the fact that every time we do here it feels like getting kicked in the teeth.

Maybe consider acting a bit more like a community?

Like, maybe, just maybe, when someone you've been speaking to for years says "well when I was raped/assaulted/harassed" take a second to say "I'm so sorry that happened to you" before focusing on how to win your argument.

Just...care? Please?

I'm really sorry you wen't through that, I can't even imagine how hard it was (and continues to be).  I've not been a big poster on this thread but I have been reading along.  Your posts (and the other posts sharing their stories) has made a difference.  For me.  I didn't understand the ubiquity of assault women face.  I'm going to do my best to be aware of it in the future and intervene when I see it in my life. 

[Metalcat]

I'm really sorry you wen't through that, I can't even imagine how hard it was (and continues to be).  I've not been a big poster on this thread but I have been reading along.  Your posts (and the other posts sharing their stories) has made a difference.  For me.  I didn't understand the ubiquity of assault women face.  I'm going to do my best to be aware of it in the future and intervene when I see it in my life.

Thanks Tyson, and it really is heartening to hear that it resonates.

It does feel like a really huge responsibility, not every woman can speak as freely as I can about this shit. I've had A LOT of therapy and I've worked with a lot of other victims. I can speak pretty freely without being retraumatized by talking about it, but most victims can't and won't, which is why it's invisible for so many.

[Tigerpine]

Because too many men still see us as property.

Different topic (abortion), but at least one judge in Georgia doesn't feel this way (that women are property).

“Women are not some piece of collectively owned community property the disposition of which is decided by majority vote,” McBurney wrote. “Forcing a woman to carry an unwanted, not-yet-viable fetus to term violates her constitutional rights to liberty and privacy, even taking into consideration whatever bundle of rights the not-yet-viable fetus may have.”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2024/10/01/abortion-georgia-six-week-judge/

[RetiredAt63]

Because too many men still see us as property.

Different topic (abortion), but at least one judge in Georgia doesn't feel this way (that women are property).

“Women are not some piece of collectively owned community property the disposition of which is decided by majority vote,” McBurney wrote. “Forcing a woman to carry an unwanted, not-yet-viable fetus to term violates her constitutional rights to liberty and privacy, even taking into consideration whatever bundle of rights the not-yet-viable fetus may have.”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2024/10/01/abortion-georgia-six-week-judge/

It's behind a pay wall for me but good for him.  Too bad so many legislators enact laws that do treat women as public property.

I'm Canadian so can't vote US blue.  Our next election I'll be voting Canadian red, or orange, or green, anything but blue.

[Metalcat]

Because too many men still see us as property.

Different topic (abortion), but at least one judge in Georgia doesn't feel this way (that women are property).

“Women are not some piece of collectively owned community property the disposition of which is decided by majority vote,” McBurney wrote. “Forcing a woman to carry an unwanted, not-yet-viable fetus to term violates her constitutional rights to liberty and privacy, even taking into consideration whatever bundle of rights the not-yet-viable fetus may have.”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2024/10/01/abortion-georgia-six-week-judge/

It's behind a pay wall for me but good for him.  Too bad so many legislators enact laws that do treat women as public property.

I'm Canadian so can't vote US blue.  Our next election I'll be voting Canadian red, or orange, or green, anything but blue.

Might wanna clarify that our Blue is a lot like US red.

[Tigerpine]

Here is a related article that shouldn't be behind a pay wall.
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/georgia-judge-strikes-down-state-ban-on-abortions-past-6-weeks-into-pregnancy

Here is a link to the actual text of the final ruling.  The quote I listed earlier is from the bottom of page 13.
https://georgiarecorder.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/09/2022CV367796-FINAL-ORDER.pdf

[Sandi_k]

I'm really sorry you wen't through that, I can't even imagine how hard it was (and continues to be).  I've not been a big poster on this thread but I have been reading along.  Your posts (and the other posts sharing their stories) has made a difference.  For me.  I didn't understand the ubiquity of assault women face.  I'm going to do my best to be aware of it in the future and intervene when I see it in my life.

Thank you.

[markbrynn]

Just another man who is reading along and feels compelled to post in support of all the brave women sharing in this thread. I wish the posters who feel the need to constantly say that men can also be assaulted would just be able to accept that women experience violence of all different types committed by men on a massive scale. We can talk about this without needing to also mention every other type of violence that can be committed by different types of people against other types of people. Violence against women by men is a huge problem, PERIOD.

[RetiredAt63]

Because too many men still see us as property.

Different topic (abortion), but at least one judge in Georgia doesn't feel this way (that women are property).

“Women are not some piece of collectively owned community property the disposition of which is decided by majority vote,” McBurney wrote. “Forcing a woman to carry an unwanted, not-yet-viable fetus to term violates her constitutional rights to liberty and privacy, even taking into consideration whatever bundle of rights the not-yet-viable fetus may have.”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2024/10/01/abortion-georgia-six-week-judge/

It's behind a pay wall for me but good for him.  Too bad so many legislators enact laws that do treat women as public property.

I'm Canadian so can't vote US blue.  Our next election I'll be voting Canadian red, or orange, or green, anything but blue.

Might wanna clarify that our Blue is a lot like US red.

Well I did put in the nationalities. And said blue for the US.  And I  pray our red isn't  too much like US red, although I'm super worried they may be.

If people get confused about our rainbow of political party colours there is always Google.  I'm on my tablet and trying to keep posts as short as possible.

[GuitarStv]

There has been a repeated tendency to discuss this problem as a male vs female thing where I believe that it goes much deeper.  It's ingrained in our culture.  Violations (be they objectification, insult, assault, slight unwanted physical contact) - these things happen across genders.  I believe that this should be taken seriously regardless of what the person's personal history is.  I'd even argue that someone brushing off an assault as no big deal (because they're physically stronger, don't have a history of objectification, haven't experienced much sexism, etc.) is probably a sign of the problem itself.

Someone who brushes things off as no big deal is going to expect others to do the same.  Rather than try to guess at someone else's history of trauma and past experiences, or trying to argue that one person doesn't feel as much trauma as another because reasons . . . maybe we should just draw a line in the sand for all.

You are reading things that aren't there. 

I think you're right, sorry.  I was misreading some of comments.

[partgypsy]

Thank you metalcat. I am of a slightly older generation, teen in the 80s.I have friends and colleagues and colleagues daughter who were raped. They are horrifying stories. Date rape. Of being a teen, raped by a friend of the family. Colleagues daughter, raped by colleagues bil, when they were all sleeping in the same house for a holiday. And a friend who was abused as a child. And in all those, none were reported to the police. Because of themselves, or not wanting others to know. One was told they would be disowned if they reported it. So based on my personal experience, most rapes are not reported. And we have all seen what happens if you do report. You are dragged through the mud, and conviction rates are appallingly low. Most decide not to. Female AND male sexual assault is a problem in the military. It is also not reported for similar reasons (Shame, and retribution) and is equally if not more devastating to them. Things have gotten better. But there is room for improvement. Esp in people's attitudes towards the subject. 

[partgypsy]

And as far as comments harassment even touching, that was just the atmosphere. If course it was wrong. But you just moved past it. You navigated and if you could, clues in other women (don't be alone with this guy etc).  I wanted to apply to be a waitress at a night club, but another woman pulled aside and asked how I felt about blow jobs. The job was contingent on giving the manager a bj. So I didn't apply.

[InterfaceLeader]

I don't really agree -- my feeling is that religious organizations have an entirely different level of abuse.

Your feelings are one thing, but do you have any data?

Sexual abuse happens everywhere. Yes, in churches, but also in schools and in family homes. In news organisations. In Hollywood. In the music industry. In the police. In universities. In labs. In tech start-ups. In prisons. Everywhere you go, where one person has power, for whatever reason, over another, you will find sexual abuse. Blaming it all on the 'others' means we will always miss it when it's happening next to us.

[jeninco]

I don't really agree -- my feeling is that religious organizations have an entirely different level of abuse.

Your feelings are one thing, but do you have any data?

Sexual abuse happens everywhere. Yes, in churches, but also in schools and in family homes. In news organisations. In Hollywood. In the music industry. In the police. In universities. In labs. In tech start-ups. In prisons. Everywhere you go, where one person has power, for whatever reason, over another, you will find sexual abuse. Blaming it all on the 'others' means we will always miss it when it's happening next to us.

Your point is well taken (don't make it a "them" thing), but a cursory search turned up this:
https://www.ualberta.ca/en/folio/2020/08/researchers-reveal-patterns-of-sexual-abuse-in-religious-settings.html
which suggests that religious sexual abuse is a whole different animal than secular, because of the whole God thing:

"Because devotion to the institution shapes social identity, especially for more devout individuals, members of a religious community may be entirely suspicious of the victim's claims, favouring instead the religious figure and his or her status and perceived credibility."

https://www.msnbc.com/the-reidout/reidout-blog/illinois-catholic-church-child-abuse-rcna86289
Sex abuse in churches in Illinois...

https://religionnews.com/2024/04/29/why-faith-based-groups-are-prone-to-sexual-abuse-and-how-they-can-get-ahead-of-it/

https://www.crewjanci.com/church-sexual-abuse-statistics/

I could continue right along...

My point is that religious institutions have a special power setup, where no one wants to disturb the men (typically) at the top, so when they do offend and when it IS reported, the victim is frequently demonized.

I'm also curious about the religious people in here going "yeah, but abuse happens lots of places!"

[LennStar]

I think the comment about a linear scale with severity of crimes speaks, in part, to how different people experience things differently, and that there's no way the criminal justice system could measure that and punish accordingly, even if that's what we wanted the system to do.

Yes, that's the point. The justice system has to try to be as objective as possible. And it is impossible to be objective about something that is 100% subjective.

But time and time again, whenever this topic comes up and a bunch of community members share their personal experience with traumatic shit it's only handled as if it's a point of argument, and there's an utter callous disinterest in understanding shit that fellow community members have been through.

A group of women here consistently offer to share information about extremely personal and extremely painful shit and everyone treats it like data points, not human beings.

Thanks Tyson, and it really is heartening to hear that it resonates.
[...}
A big part of *why* I'm so vocal is because of the kind of PM's I've gotten over the years in response to how the men here discuss this very topic.

Hm... I am surprised that comes from you of all people (as therapist).
You should know there are 2 ways people argue, especially around emotional topics.
One type "freezes" - goes all logical, trying to shut out emotions as much as possible to have a reasonable, fruitful conversation based on objective facts.
The other type goes "volcano", getting more and more heating in trying to make the other party understand and wondering why the the other side isn't reacting to their emotions (and also getting emotional), showing understanding.


I am definitely the "freeze" type. I analyse stuff and try to get to the underlying point(s) of everything. So here is my anaysis:
From what I have read it seems that this is mostly what the men in this thread have done - Freeze and analyse - while the women have gone the "volcano" way, trying to make men understand their feelings (trauma).
Would you concur or see it otherwise?

Thanks Tyson, and it really is heartening to hear that it resonates.

I can assure you it resonated for me, but: see above.

I can't say for other men, but for sayig things like "I feel with you" or "I understand you" would feel like a lie because, as was pointed out again and again in this thread, we men do not understand how big this topic is in the daily life of most women.
So how can I say such a thing? Would I not downplay the experiences of the women? Would that not show that in reality I don't care about the experiences?

[nereo]

The justice system has to try to be as objective as possible. And it is impossible to be objective about something that is 100% subjective.
 

What do you mean by “something that is 100% subjective”

[Metalcat]

I think the comment about a linear scale with severity of crimes speaks, in part, to how different people experience things differently, and that there's no way the criminal justice system could measure that and punish accordingly, even if that's what we wanted the system to do.

Yes, that's the point. The justice system has to try to be as objective as possible. And it is impossible to be objective about something that is 100% subjective.

But time and time again, whenever this topic comes up and a bunch of community members share their personal experience with traumatic shit it's only handled as if it's a point of argument, and there's an utter callous disinterest in understanding shit that fellow community members have been through.

A group of women here consistently offer to share information about extremely personal and extremely painful shit and everyone treats it like data points, not human beings.

Thanks Tyson, and it really is heartening to hear that it resonates.
[...}
A big part of *why* I'm so vocal is because of the kind of PM's I've gotten over the years in response to how the men here discuss this very topic.

Hm... I am surprised that comes from you of all people (as therapist).
You should know there are 2 ways people argue, especially around emotional topics.
One type "freezes" - goes all logical, trying to shut out emotions as much as possible to have a reasonable, fruitful conversation based on objective facts.
The other type goes "volcano", getting more and more heating in trying to make the other party understand and wondering why the the other side isn't reacting to their emotions (and also getting emotional), showing understanding.


I am definitely the "freeze" type. I analyse stuff and try to get to the underlying point(s) of everything. So here is my anaysis:
From what I have read it seems that this is mostly what the men in this thread have done - Freeze and analyse - while the women have gone the "volcano" way, trying to make men understand their feelings (trauma).
Would you concur or see it otherwise?

Thanks Tyson, and it really is heartening to hear that it resonates.

I can assure you it resonated for me, but: see above.

I can't say for other men, but for sayig things like "I feel with you" or "I understand you" would feel like a lie because, as was pointed out again and again in this thread, we men do not understand how big this topic is in the daily life of most women.
So how can I say such a thing? Would I not downplay the experiences of the women? Would that not show that in reality I don't care about the experiences?

Me of all people?

Me, the human being who has shared personal accounts of being raped. You're surprised that I'm upset by a lack of compassion from fellow human beings?

How can that possibly surprise you, even from a "logical" perspective??

I never asked you to understand, I asked you to care about fellow humans you speak to regularly when they talk about horrific things that happen to them.

I am profoundly insulted by your response by the way. I find it incredibly diminishing of the information that the women have brought to this thread.

ETA: also as a therapist, I disagree with your categorization of how people argue as well. Again, like everything in this thread I've tried to discuss, how people argue is more nuanced than one type getting super logical and the other hysterical and emotional. FTR, both responses you described are emotional responses, and becoming detached and dismissive is a highly reactive emotional response.

Both explosiveness and shutting down are responses to emotional overwhelm. One is not more logical than the other. They're both dysfunctional.

What I have called for is compassion, which is exactly what we work on in therapy between people who are arguing.

If you CAN'T have compassion for fellow humans when they share personal experiences of being severely hurt, then that isn't a personal strength, that's not being "logical" that's scary.

If you don't know how to understand why and how fellow community people have been actively harmed by this thread, perhaps try and be curious instead of judgemental?

[Kris]

I honestly shouldn’t be surprised that this thread has culminated in a “men are logical arguers, and women are emotional volcanoes” comment. But here we are.

Profoundly disappointing.

[InterfaceLeader]

Your point is well taken (don't make it a "them" thing), but a cursory search turned up this:
https://www.ualberta.ca/en/folio/2020/08/researchers-reveal-patterns-of-sexual-abuse-in-religious-settings.html
which suggests that religious sexual abuse is a whole different animal than secular, because of the whole God thing:

"Because devotion to the institution shapes social identity, especially for more devout individuals, members of a religious community may be entirely suspicious of the victim's claims, favouring instead the religious figure and his or her status and perceived credibility."

https://www.msnbc.com/the-reidout/reidout-blog/illinois-catholic-church-child-abuse-rcna86289
Sex abuse in churches in Illinois...

https://religionnews.com/2024/04/29/why-faith-based-groups-are-prone-to-sexual-abuse-and-how-they-can-get-ahead-of-it/

https://www.crewjanci.com/church-sexual-abuse-statistics/

I could continue right along...

My point is that religious institutions have a special power setup, where no one wants to disturb the men (typically) at the top, so when they do offend and when it IS reported, the victim is frequently demonized.

I'm also curious about the religious people in here going "yeah, but abuse happens lots of places!"

To be clear, I am an athiest and have been to church approximately 6 times in my entire life, mostly as a tourist looking at architecture. The chip on my shoulder is because I was raised by radical left-wing types who were fond of saying things like 'all religion is a form of abuse!' and it took me a long time to unlearn that prejudice.

None of your news articles seem to say that sexual abuse is more prevalent in Churches than in the wider population. Nor do they cite any data, which isn't surprising as there is very little reliable data out there. I'm not denying that sexual abuse happens in religious communities. It happens in almost every type of institution. And the way that abuse is carried out can be unique to religious settings, as noted in this study that one of your articles quoted extensively: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S135917891830315X

But the same is true of daycares and military organisations -- the way in which the power structure is set up and enforced is unique to the type of institution, the fact that abuse is carried out is not. From my experience, it seems that we are all members of organisations/instituions which almost certainly include a person using that organisation as a way to carry out abuse.

[Tigerpine]

In addition to sexual abuse, lets not forget the sad reality of domestic abuse, which includes sexual abuse by intimate partners but also includes other forms of violence.

When Tequia Monea Nails was killed last week, shot to death by her former boyfriend while clutching their 2-month-old son, the 32-year-old woman became part of a surge in domestic homicides that have alarmed Prince George’s County authorities.
Nails’s death on Sept. 24, inside her small, tree-shaded apartment while her three other children were nearby, marks the sixth homicide by a partner investigated by Prince George’s County police this year, according to county police data. Domestic violence crimes have risen by about 13 percent since this time last year, data shows.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/dc-md-va/2024/10/04/maryland-mother-shot-holding-baby/

I highly recommend the following link for information about domestic violence.  One representative statistic follows the link.

https://www.thehotline.org/stakeholders/domestic-violence-statistics/

An average of 24 people per minute are victims of rape, physical violence or stalking by an intimate partner in the United States — more than 12 million women and men over the course of a single year.

[Villanelle]

I think the comment about a linear scale with severity of crimes speaks, in part, to how different people experience things differently, and that there's no way the criminal justice system could measure that and punish accordingly, even if that's what we wanted the system to do.

Yes, that's the point. The justice system has to try to be as objective as possible. And it is impossible to be objective about something that is 100% subjective.

But time and time again, whenever this topic comes up and a bunch of community members share their personal experience with traumatic shit it's only handled as if it's a point of argument, and there's an utter callous disinterest in understanding shit that fellow community members have been through.

A group of women here consistently offer to share information about extremely personal and extremely painful shit and everyone treats it like data points, not human beings.

Thanks Tyson, and it really is heartening to hear that it resonates.
[...}
A big part of *why* I'm so vocal is because of the kind of PM's I've gotten over the years in response to how the men here discuss this very topic.

Hm... I am surprised that comes from you of all people (as therapist).
You should know there are 2 ways people argue, especially around emotional topics.
One type "freezes" - goes all logical, trying to shut out emotions as much as possible to have a reasonable, fruitful conversation based on objective facts.
The other type goes "volcano", getting more and more heating in trying to make the other party understand and wondering why the the other side isn't reacting to their emotions (and also getting emotional), showing understanding.


I am definitely the "freeze" type. I analyse stuff and try to get to the underlying point(s) of everything. So here is my anaysis:
From what I have read it seems that this is mostly what the men in this thread have done - Freeze and analyse - while the women have gone the "volcano" way, trying to make men understand their feelings (trauma).
Would you concur or see it otherwise?

Thanks Tyson, and it really is heartening to hear that it resonates.

I can assure you it resonated for me, but: see above.

I can't say for other men, but for sayig things like "I feel with you" or "I understand you" would feel like a lie because, as was pointed out again and again in this thread, we men do not understand how big this topic is in the daily life of most women.
So how can I say such a thing? Would I not downplay the experiences of the women? Would that not show that in reality I don't care about the experiences?

Talk about an insulting, tone deaf response.  And I think it's telling that your way of describing the men's response is "analyze", while the women are called "volcanoes".  The men's reaction is logical and the women's is illogicial, right?  (I guess at least you didn't say "hysterical"; that's something.)  To paraphrase T. Swift, it's you.  Hi.  You're the problem. It's you.   

You don't have to say, "I understand", and in fact, you shouldn't, since you don't.  How about, "wow, I'm sorry that happened.  It's awful.  No one should have to endure that."

You can't muster up basic compassion for people who revealed some pretty horrific shit, and you want to dismiss that as "different styles of arguing"  That makes you a jerk, not a "different style arguer". 

And I feel pretty confident that if people were talking about having their home broken into or their loved one murdered, you could probably muster an "I'm so sorry you are going through this."  And that you'd be a lot less focused on arguing about how the law should apply to their dead baby. Even if they made a comment about the applicable laws, most people aren't going to strap on their analytical debate shoes before at least saying, "wow, your infant was killed by carjackers?  That's rough.  So sad; so sorry, etc."

Think about that. Think about the way you've responded in this thread.  (Is it that you just don't see these things people have shared as horrific? Or...?) Think about what your reactions to horrific traumatic, life-altering experiences says about how you view women and crimes and offenses against women.  Think about the kind of person it makes you, and whether that's who you want to be. 

Because... damn. 

If you came here and posted that you were assaulted and had your penis cut off in a horrific attack, and we all started arguing about what crime you should be charged with, how serious it really was, how common these types of crimes were, etc.  And no one even said, "hey, sorry 'bout your dick, man.  RUOK?" do you think that would be okay?  Do you think that would be decent or humane?  Do you think that your increasingly frustrated posts would just be you being a "volcano" while everyone else was analytical?  Or would everyone else kind be assholes?  (Hint:  It's the latter.)  And even when you flat out said, "it was so hard sharing this yet you are treating me like a data point; how about just saying that you're sorry it happened" and still they continue to tell be critical about the way you are expressing your experience?  How do you think that woudl feel for you, sitting in front of your computer with a bloody stump that used to be your penis?

And gee... we wonder why some women are "done" with men?  Why they don't want to bother dating, for fear of a Lenn ending up on the other side of the table?  Why they aren't interested in having kids, for fear of having to share them with a Lenn, and have their daughters be raised by a Lenn?  Why they don't want to marry because that would mean trying (and maybe not succeeding) to wade through all the Lenns in order to find someone who has basic compassion and can recognize that when they go through something hard, they don't need someone trying to decide just how hard it was?  Fuck, man.  If you think this sounds harsh, maybe you deserve harsh.  Because you're the problem.  What you've done in this thread is the problem.  And it's why increasing numbers of women are just saying, "nah, I'm good.  I'll take my cats and my family and my friends and have a great life, rather than trying to find a partner in a sea of men who clearly don't give half a shit about my experiences, and can't be bothered to even try." 

Try giving half a care about your fellow human beings.  Even those without penises, and even when they experience a largely female experience like rape, sexual assault, or being utterly dismissed when they share their traumas. 

[Wolfpack Mustachian]

I can't say for other men, but for sayig things like "I feel with you" or "I understand you" would feel like a lie because, as was pointed out again and again in this thread, we men do not understand how big this topic is in the daily life of most women.
So how can I say such a thing? Would I not downplay the experiences of the women? Would that not show that in reality I don't care about the experiences?

You could just say I'm sorry that happened or just not say anything at all...

[Sailor Sam]

I'm also curious about the religious people in here going "yeah, but abuse happens lots of places!"

As far as I can tell when re-reading the thread @GuitarStv, @shelivesthedream, and myself are the one's who've said some variety of "abuse happens lots of places." I don't know about shelivesthedream's religious views, but I know gituarstv is an atheist. I might be the only religious person that responded when abuse in the church came up. None of us were downplaying that abuse in the church happens, or that it's somehow excused when church leaders abuse.

[GuitarStv]

I'm also curious about the religious people in here going "yeah, but abuse happens lots of places!"

As far as I can tell when re-reading the thread @GuitarStv, @shelivesthedream, and myself are the one's who've said some variety of "abuse happens lots of places." I don't know about shelivesthedream's religious views, but I know gituarstv is an atheist. I might be the only religious person that responded when abuse in the church came up. None of us were downplaying that abuse in the church happens, or that it's somehow excused when church leaders abuse.

I suspect that more abuse is likely to happen in churches (for a variety of reasons related to church structure listed in a previous post), but haven't found studies that prove this to be the case.


FWIW - not atheist (although I certainly leaned that way for many years), more pantheistic in my beliefs.