Are women done with men?

[GuitarStv]

Perhaps it varies by Asian country, selections might be limited rather than non-existent.  But to your point, shoe sizes may use an entirely different scale.  Clothing size "L" in Asia may not fit someone who wears size "L" in the U.S.

Ha, that's an understatement.  When I was doing Muay Thai, I used to get fight shorts, boxing gloves, and t-shirts directly from Thailand.  I'm an M or an L shirt and an L short size in North America . . . and was usually an XXL in Thai sizes.  :P

[dividendman]

Perhaps it varies by Asian country, selections might be limited rather than non-existent.  But to your point, shoe sizes may use an entirely different scale.  Clothing size "L" in Asia may not fit someone who wears size "L" in the U.S.

Ha, that's an understatement.  When I was doing Muay Thai, I used to get fight shorts, boxing gloves, and t-shirts directly from Thailand.  I'm an M or an L shirt and an L short size in North America . . . and was usually an XXL in Thai sizes.  :P

What do you think of someone getting into Muay Thai (or another striking combat sport like boxing) around age 40? Just a recipe for injury or....? I want to learn striking just for fun and exercise, but not really to get into any matches.

[spartana]

Sure anyone can have a loss if strength at any time for various reasons,  or never had much strength to begin with, so will be more limited in some of the things they can do. My point was that being a smaller or weaker-looking person doesn't mean you are. So for many girls and women of any size I think they can be very capable of doing most normal "man-stuff"  in a household. Obvious it varies by individuals and their situation. I personally like doing the harder things while I'm able because they challenge me in a variety of different ways then traditional "women stuff" does. Also because I know I won't always be able to do that once older or if injured and I'll miss doing those things.

And on projects with stuck fasteners - enough leverage makes any person "Superman". Experience teaches a person where to use it and where not to. ;)

I had to disassemble a FWD hub on our "big car". Extensions, cheater bar, long breaker bar, etc. Even so everything flexed alot before the fastener gave up. Beware potential energy. Cheap breaker bar from the auto parts store did it's job and survived!

That's where the experience part comes in. Both you and I are gear heads and have been working on stuff, often big stuff, (both personally and professionally) since we were kids. So we know how to defeat most things that require strength (says she of the 6 foot breaker bar and 6 foot torque wrench). But sadly many women haven't been taught all those little tricks and so try to rely on brute strength alone which is hard to do. So might not ever feel comfortable doing things like that. Plus it's all kind of icky and dirty too so not a lot of desire to do that kind of thing. I definitely get that! But they are nice skills and knowledge to have even if someone doesn't want to do them.

And what @RetiredAt63 says. I have dainty little hands and dealing with some tools can be a PITA. Although having long skinny arms and dainty hands has help when the beef cake guys drop tools or nuts and bolts down in the engine compartment and can't get them without tearing half the engine apart :-).

Give me a long enough lever, and I can move that entire bitch of an engine block with my tiny, ineffectual little fists!

Ineffectual little fists are good for shaking them in the air while yelling at your crew :-).
 
Of course there can be other anatomical problems with being a woman working on things. I seem to remember someone here once got stuck in an engine compartment by her boobs. There was a photo so it's real! " Damnit Chief! I told you not to let Dolly go down I to the engine compartment again. Now she's stuck...again. Get the small boat davit and haul her out...again!"

[AlanStache]

Perhaps it varies by Asian country, selections might be limited rather than non-existent.  But to your point, shoe sizes may use an entirely different scale.  Clothing size "L" in Asia may not fit someone who wears size "L" in the U.S.

Ha, that's an understatement.  When I was doing Muay Thai, I used to get fight shorts, boxing gloves, and t-shirts directly from Thailand.  I'm an M or an L shirt and an L short size in North America . . . and was usually an XXL in Thai sizes.  :P

What do you think of someone getting into Muay Thai (or another striking combat sport like boxing) around age 40? Just a recipe for injury or....? I want to learn striking just for fun and exercise, but not really to get into any matches.

I started Mauy Thai after 40 and it was great.  As with all new sports be aware of how fast you start and don't over do it especially in the early weeks.  And with martial arts make sure the school has the right vibe, no fight-bros putting noobs on the ground.  Find something you like and with classes you can attend and watch one or two, how does the instructor run the class, how do the students react to the instructor? 

Traditional mauy thai shorts would look like daisy dukes on my long legs - had to stuck with long running shorts that were still only sort of half way to the knee. 

[GuitarStv]

Perhaps it varies by Asian country, selections might be limited rather than non-existent.  But to your point, shoe sizes may use an entirely different scale.  Clothing size "L" in Asia may not fit someone who wears size "L" in the U.S.

Ha, that's an understatement.  When I was doing Muay Thai, I used to get fight shorts, boxing gloves, and t-shirts directly from Thailand.  I'm an M or an L shirt and an L short size in North America . . . and was usually an XXL in Thai sizes.  :P

What do you think of someone getting into Muay Thai (or another striking combat sport like boxing) around age 40? Just a recipe for injury or....? I want to learn striking just for fun and exercise, but not really to get into any matches.

I started Mauy Thai after 40 and it was great.  As with all new sports be aware of how fast you start and don't over do it especially in the early weeks.  And with martial arts make sure the school has the right vibe, no fight-bros putting noobs on the ground.  Find something you like and with classes you can attend and watch one or two, how does the instructor run the class, how do the students react to the instructor? 

Traditional mauy thai shorts would look like daisy dukes on my long legs - had to stuck with long running shorts that were still only sort of half way to the knee. 

Depends on how the gym is run and what your goals are.  It's worth shopping around, because every gym is run differently.  If you just want to hit pads and get into shape, then boxing or thai boxing are great for that purpose.  Most gyms will do classes like this as there aren't as many who really end up wanting to fight.  You'll be taught basic form and technique.  Doing this, you'll get some minor injuries from time to time (rolling/spraining ankles, bruising on shins/knuckles, maybe some joint pain especially in your knuckles, spraining wrist - these are all pretty common).  If you're careful to rest properly (as an older athlete it takes you longer to ramp up - you will be incredibly sore all the time if you don't recognize this) and stretch regularly though you'll drag your body kicking and screaming into a surprisingly high level of fitness in under a year, there's a lot of upside and very little downside.

It's very different if you want to to some fights or even just spar regularly though.  Most good gyms won't let you spar until you demonstrate at least some level of being able to shell up and protect yourself, but it's very common for guys to go really hard on new people while sparring.  Expect that some will definitely try to hurt you.  Broken nose, worse bruising (especially on the face, and arms as well as shins), concussion, are all pretty common.  I used to come home every day after sparring with my head ringing - which is probably not good long term for anything.  Not sure that I'd recommend this for many who are older.  Younger guys will hit harder and be faster, which means you just eat a lot more damage and your ability to recover will be less than the younger guys.  I feel like you have to do sparring regularly if you want the stuff to work well as self-defense - you really only find out if what you learned works (and has actually been learned) this way though . . .

[Sailor Sam]

Sure anyone can have a loss if strength at any time for various reasons,  or never had much strength to begin with, so will be more limited in some of the things they can do. My point was that being a smaller or weaker-looking person doesn't mean you are. So for many girls and women of any size I think they can be very capable of doing most normal "man-stuff"  in a household. Obvious it varies by individuals and their situation. I personally like doing the harder things while I'm able because they challenge me in a variety of different ways then traditional "women stuff" does. Also because I know I won't always be able to do that once older or if injured and I'll miss doing those things.

And on projects with stuck fasteners - enough leverage makes any person "Superman". Experience teaches a person where to use it and where not to. ;)

I had to disassemble a FWD hub on our "big car". Extensions, cheater bar, long breaker bar, etc. Even so everything flexed alot before the fastener gave up. Beware potential energy. Cheap breaker bar from the auto parts store did it's job and survived!

That's where the experience part comes in. Both you and I are gear heads and have been working on stuff, often big stuff, (both personally and professionally) since we were kids. So we know how to defeat most things that require strength (says she of the 6 foot breaker bar and 6 foot torque wrench). But sadly many women haven't been taught all those little tricks and so try to rely on brute strength alone which is hard to do. So might not ever feel comfortable doing things like that. Plus it's all kind of icky and dirty too so not a lot of desire to do that kind of thing. I definitely get that! But they are nice skills and knowledge to have even if someone doesn't want to do them.

And what @RetiredAt63 says. I have dainty little hands and dealing with some tools can be a PITA. Although having long skinny arms and dainty hands has help when the beef cake guys drop tools or nuts and bolts down in the engine compartment and can't get them without tearing half the engine apart :-).

Give me a long enough lever, and I can move that entire bitch of an engine block with my tiny, ineffectual little fists!

Ineffectual little fists are good for shaking them in the air while yelling at your crew :-).
 
Of course there can be other anatomical problems with being a woman working on things. I seem to remember someone here once got stuck in an engine compartment by her boobs. There was a photo so it's real! " Damnit Chief! I told you not to let Dolly go down I to the engine compartment again. Now she's stuck...again. Get the small boat davit and haul her out...again!"

Snirtle. Oh god, I was so stuck. And it hurt so bad getting hauled back out!

[MustacheAndaHalf]

People who fit the norm,  whatever it is for their area, don't realize how difficult it can be when a person doesn't fit the norm.  For men in North America I suggest the thought experiment of living in an Asian country where everyone is smaller.   No men's clothing,  shoes, etc. in your size, you are too big.  Suddenly life is more difficult.

Perhaps it varies by Asian country, selections might be limited rather than non-existent.  But to your point, shoe sizes may use an entirely different scale.  Clothing size "L" in Asia may not fit someone who wears size "L" in the U.S.

It's also easy to take everything for granted in the U.S., by not reflecting on progress there which is absent in many Asian countries (Japan and South Korea, for example).  South Korea retains a traditional view of women doing all housework, while simultaneously being so expensive both spouses need to work.  There's a reason they have the lowest fertility rate in the world.

I wasn't actually talking about nominal size, since that varies so much, I was talking actual size.

I see it all the time because I have long feet.   For everything but dress shoes I shop in the men's section. Shoe store size selection doesn't match the actual size distribution of women's feet.

"No men's clothing,  shoes, etc. in your size, you are too big"
I've repeatedly bought men's shoes in Asia, which go up to 11.4" size.  Same with shirts and shorts.

We’re talking about products that are produced and sold in market economies. Niches in sizes, etc. that can be profitably sold are exploited pretty quickly and the market accommodates it. If producers don’t see a profitable market they will not fund production for it.

Is there a solution I’m missing?

Both of my posts claim those products exist, which I think agrees with what you said.

I could also believe 0.05% of a population isn't a significant market, which is the percentage of Japan's population that are Americans.  China has ten times Japan's population, but roughly the same number of Americans, so 0.005% there.  A shoe company won't go out of business by missing that few customers.

But again, I think the need is being met - China is a major shoe and clothing producer for Americans.

[RetiredAt63]

Well, I was trying to get men to feel what life would be like if a market segment did not cater to them, like so much of the market ignores women.  That didn't go well. Sigh.

In my darker moments I feel that some men work hard to be oblivious.  This is one of them.

[Gin1984]

Well, I was trying to get men to feel what life would be like if a market segment did not cater to them, like so much of the market ignores women.  That didn't go well. Sigh.

In my darker moments I feel that some men work hard to be oblivious.  This is one of them.

Honestly, their response cracked me up because it was so obvious what you were doing.  It is like we need a term like weaponized incompetence for this kind of response, maybe weaponized obliviousness?  Instead of thinking and responding to your point, they take whatever word they can find in it to not think about your statement because it would require introspection. Do men even get how offensive and dismissive that behavior is?  Perfect example why women are "done".

[RetiredAt63]

Well, I was trying to get men to feel what life would be like if a market segment did not cater to them, like so much of the market ignores women.  That didn't go well. Sigh.

In my darker moments I feel that some men work hard to be oblivious.  This is one of them.

Honestly, their response cracked me up because it was so obvious what you were doing.  It is like we need a term like weaponized incompetence for this kind of response, maybe weaponized obliviousness?  Instead of thinking and responding to your point, they take whatever word they can find in it to not think about your statement because it would require introspection. Do men even get how offensive and dismissive that behavior is?  Perfect example why women are "done".

If men want to see why women are done they can watch Melanie Hamlett's YouTube channel.  The one on the pink tax about selling her truck as Melanie and then Mel is hilarious, in a dark way.

I just found her channel a few days ago. Watching her is like the 60s feminist movement's click, repeatedly.

The irony is that she moved from the US to Spain for work, and found a guy who does get it. She is happily married,  she found one who isn't a jerk.

[Metalcat]

Well, I was trying to get men to feel what life would be like if a market segment did not cater to them, like so much of the market ignores women.  That didn't go well. Sigh.

In my darker moments I feel that some men work hard to be oblivious.  This is one of them.

Honestly, their response cracked me up because it was so obvious what you were doing.  It is like we need a term like weaponized incompetence for this kind of response, maybe weaponized obliviousness?  Instead of thinking and responding to your point, they take whatever word they can find in it to not think about your statement because it would require introspection. Do men even get how offensive and dismissive that behavior is?  Perfect example why women are "done".

If men want to see why women are done they can watch Melanie Hamlett's YouTube channel.  The one on the pink tax about selling her truck as Melanie and then Mel is hilarious, in a dark way.

I just found her channel a few days ago. Watching her is like the 60s feminist movement's click, repeatedly.

The irony is that she moved from the US to Spain for work, and found a guy who does get it. She is happily married,  she found one who isn't a jerk.

I suspect that women who are done with men and women who are married to feminist men hold a lot of the same values and opinions.

[MustacheAndaHalf]

Well, I was trying to get men to feel what life would be like if a market segment did not cater to them, like so much of the market ignores women.  That didn't go well. Sigh.

In my darker moments I feel that some men work hard to be oblivious.  This is one of them.

Then don't lie to make your points.  I tried to be polite in my first reply, but you persisted in claiming shoe and clothing sizes for American men are not available in Asia, which is false.

For men in North America I suggest the thought experiment of living in an Asian country where everyone is smaller.   No men's clothing,  shoes, etc. in your size, you are too big.  Suddenly life is more difficult.

[Metalcat]

Well, I was trying to get men to feel what life would be like if a market segment did not cater to them, like so much of the market ignores women.  That didn't go well. Sigh.

In my darker moments I feel that some men work hard to be oblivious.  This is one of them.

Then don't lie to make your points.  I tried to be polite in my first reply, but you persisted in claiming shoe and clothing sizes for American men are not available in Asia, which is false.

For men in North America I suggest the thought experiment of living in an Asian country where everyone is smaller.   No men's clothing,  shoes, etc. in your size, you are too big.  Suddenly life is more difficult.

I thought it was pretty self-evident that she wasn't saying that those sizes don't exist, but that the experience of the larger American male will often be to walk into a store and not have it cater to them as the target market.

That was her entire point. Being a "niche" market can be extremely alienating culturally when you are just looking to shop for basics.

Up until recently I was sized out of most stores because I was too slim. North American size inflation made my size "niche" and it was insanely frustrating to not have access to cheap clothes at Costco, sale items at most stores. It certainly felt like "nowhere" was catering to my size.

Obviously businesses were, I could get clothes, but I certainly felt shut out of the general market when I could spend all day in a mall and not find anything I liked that would fit me without extensive tailoring. So I had to learn to tailor my own clothes to save money.

I've also been in a wheelchair...talk about feeling like "nowhere" can accommodate you. Fuck.

Her point was that men are so accustomed to being the dominant market that spending some time in a reality where you are "niche" and can't just walk into a store and expect to find products designed and marketed to them would be eye-opening to a lot of people.

Again, I thought that was rather self-evident in her post, but perhaps it's only wildly self-evident to someone who has been a "niche," marginal customer within a dominant market. Like being a woman trying to find tools that fit her hands.

Sure, they exist, but they perhaps can't run to Home Depot in the middle of a Reno project and urgently buy a drill that fits their hand because it's iffy if they'll have any. That's not the end of the world, but those experiences do add up over time to feeling pretty alienated as a person in society, which is exactly the experience that R63 was saying that some men would benefit from understanding.

[MustacheAndaHalf]

Well, I was trying to get men to feel what life would be like if a market segment did not cater to them, like so much of the market ignores women.  That didn't go well. Sigh.

In my darker moments I feel that some men work hard to be oblivious.  This is one of them.

Then don't lie to make your points.  I tried to be polite in my first reply, but you persisted in claiming shoe and clothing sizes for American men are not available in Asia, which is false.

For men in North America I suggest the thought experiment of living in an Asian country where everyone is smaller.   No men's clothing,  shoes, etc. in your size, you are too big.  Suddenly life is more difficult.

I thought it was pretty self-evident that she wasn't saying that those sizes don't exist, but that the experience of the larger American male will often be to walk into a store and not have it cater to them as the target market.

Except she literally said that, as I already quoted repeatedly:

For men in North America I suggest the thought experiment of living in an Asian country where everyone is smaller.   No men's clothing,  shoes, etc. in your size, you are too big.  Suddenly life is more difficult.

[merula]

No matter how many times the phrase "thought experiment" is posted, it's still disappearing into the ether.

It's hilarious to me that the response to "Imagine, if you will, that The MarketTM didn't cater to you, specifically" is "That's impossible, The MarketTM will always cater to people like me."

Because The MarketTM is controlled by "people like me". Anything else is unimaginable, immaterial and a distraction.

I suspect that women who are done with men and women who are married to feminist men hold a lot of the same values and opinions.

I fit this. But even feminist men were raised in the morass of misogyny and (unless they're trans) don't have the lived experience that makes it easier to spot when they're covered in mud.

[Metalcat]

Well, I was trying to get men to feel what life would be like if a market segment did not cater to them, like so much of the market ignores women.  That didn't go well. Sigh.

In my darker moments I feel that some men work hard to be oblivious.  This is one of them.

Then don't lie to make your points.  I tried to be polite in my first reply, but you persisted in claiming shoe and clothing sizes for American men are not available in Asia, which is false.

For men in North America I suggest the thought experiment of living in an Asian country where everyone is smaller.   No men's clothing,  shoes, etc. in your size, you are too big.  Suddenly life is more difficult.

I thought it was pretty self-evident that she wasn't saying that those sizes don't exist, but that the experience of the larger American male will often be to walk into a store and not have it cater to them as the target market.

Except she literally said that, as I already quoted repeatedly:

For men in North America I suggest the thought experiment of living in an Asian country where everyone is smaller.   No men's clothing,  shoes, etc. in your size, you are too big.  Suddenly life is more difficult.

Yes, I understand that she said that. I thought is was very self-evident that she meant that men would go into stores that would have no options for them, the same way I described going into stores that had no options for me.

I think it's very obvious that options are available in those countries somewhere, but that in a lot of stores there would be "no" options available. I thought it was very self evident that she wasn't saying that it's impossible to find the right size, just that it becomes more difficult.

Just like it's very possible to find a lot of smaller tools for women's hand sizes, it's just a lot more difficult than a dude with big hands sauntering into Home Depot and buying whatever is on sale and knowing it will work for them.

When you are raised as the dominant group that is almost universally marketed to, it's difficult to understand what the minority experience is like. That's what she was saying and, again, as much as you quote her, I still think that was abundantly clear.

[Raenia]

Well, I was trying to get men to feel what life would be like if a market segment did not cater to them, like so much of the market ignores women.  That didn't go well. Sigh.

In my darker moments I feel that some men work hard to be oblivious.  This is one of them.

Then don't lie to make your points.  I tried to be polite in my first reply, but you persisted in claiming shoe and clothing sizes for American men are not available in Asia, which is false.

For men in North America I suggest the thought experiment of living in an Asian country where everyone is smaller.   No men's clothing,  shoes, etc. in your size, you are too big.  Suddenly life is more difficult.

I thought it was pretty self-evident that she wasn't saying that those sizes don't exist, but that the experience of the larger American male will often be to walk into a store and not have it cater to them as the target market.

Except she literally said that, as I already quoted repeatedly:

For men in North America I suggest the thought experiment of living in an Asian country where everyone is smaller.   No men's clothing,  shoes, etc. in your size, you are too big.  Suddenly life is more difficult.

She didn't say it was literally true that there are no large men's shoes anywhere, she asked you to do a thought experiment. Which you have refused to do on semantic grounds, instead of actually trying to understand what the women in this thread are talking about.

[RetiredAt63]

Well, I was trying to get men to feel what life would be like if a market segment did not cater to them, like so much of the market ignores women.  That didn't go well. Sigh.

In my darker moments I feel that some men work hard to be oblivious.  This is one of them.

Then don't lie to make your points.  I tried to be polite in my first reply, but you persisted in claiming shoe and clothing sizes for American men are not available in Asia, which is false.

For men in North America I suggest the thought experiment of living in an Asian country where everyone is smaller.   No men's clothing,  shoes, etc. in your size, you are too big.  Suddenly life is more difficult.

I thought it was pretty self-evident that she wasn't saying that those sizes don't exist, but that the experience of the larger American male will often be to walk into a store and not have it cater to them as the target market.

Except she literally said that, as I already quoted repeatedly:

For men in North America I suggest the thought experiment of living in an Asian country where everyone is smaller.   No men's clothing,  shoes, etc. in your size, you are too big.  Suddenly life is more difficult.

You are quoting the 3rd paragraph of a 5 paragraph post that came as part of a long discussion.  So you are being very out of context.
If you are going to quote me, quote the whole paragraph:
People who fit the norm,  whatever it is for their area, don't realize how difficult it can be when a person doesn't fit the norm.  For men in North America I suggest the thought experiment of living in an Asian country where everyone is smaller.   No men's clothing,  shoes, etc. in your size, you are too big.  Suddenly life is more difficult.

The important part of that paragraph was the bolded part, basically the part everyone has been ignoring.  Sure you can find what you need if you have the money - you may not find what you want, you may have to settle, you may have to go to specialty stores, or you may have the money to buy custom-made.   But you won't walk into a general purpose store and find what you want.  Shall I reframe this?  We live in a society where roughly 90% of people are right-handed.  You are left handed.  You may be forced as a child to write with your non-dominant (right) hand.  You are going to have to awkwardly use available tools (which may make an activity more dangerous) or buy specialty tools (more expensive in money and the time it takes to find them, especially before on-line shopping).  Do you feel like a fully recognized member of society?  Do you look at all the slurs about lefties (including being sinister) and feel warmly included?  Or how about being a red-head in societies that diss redheads (like Ron in the Harry Potter series, I had no idea until that book how much redheads are dissed in England - but of course one of Anne Shirley's biggest trials was her red hair).  I could have come up with all sorts of examples in the original post.  But people had to nitpick on the details instead of the concept.

The point was to put yourself in someone else's shoes, someone who feels that society considers them to be second class citizens, an after-thought, because it is just so much more work to meet the daily requirements of life. And while we are at it, why are there taxes in so many places on things like tampons?  Feminine hygiene products (if people nitpick about this I will yell at them) are necessities.  Yup, the men making the tax categories don't care.

The lack of empathy some posters have shown just illustrates why some women are pretty much fed up with the self-centerednesss of most of the men they know.  This forum has peoplemen who examine their lives, try to reject the financial assumptions of our consumer society.  I had hopes this self-examination would carry over into other parts of their lives.  Apparently not.

I now fully understand the 4B movement. 

[Kris]

Well, I was trying to get men to feel what life would be like if a market segment did not cater to them, like so much of the market ignores women.  That didn't go well. Sigh.

In my darker moments I feel that some men work hard to be oblivious.  This is one of them.

Then don't lie to make your points.  I tried to be polite in my first reply, but you persisted in claiming shoe and clothing sizes for American men are not available in Asia, which is false.

For men in North America I suggest the thought experiment of living in an Asian country where everyone is smaller.   No men's clothing,  shoes, etc. in your size, you are too big.  Suddenly life is more difficult.

I thought it was pretty self-evident that she wasn't saying that those sizes don't exist, but that the experience of the larger American male will often be to walk into a store and not have it cater to them as the target market.

Except she literally said that, as I already quoted repeatedly:

For men in North America I suggest the thought experiment of living in an Asian country where everyone is smaller.   No men's clothing,  shoes, etc. in your size, you are too big.  Suddenly life is more difficult.

Good lord, Mustache.

Look, if you have this much trouble doing a thought experiment, let me give you an actual, concrete example. My husband and I traveled to Ecuador a few years ago. While we were there, it was colder than we anticipated in the city where we were staying, and my husband wanted to buy a sweater and a rain coat. It was literally impossible, as there were no stores, markets, or anything else that had a size large enough for him since the typical Ecuadorian male is not only shorter but slimmer than he was. We found nothing at all during the weeks we were there, despite looking in every clothing store that had things for men.

Does that help your imagination?

[AlanStache]

Simpsons 1994:

Lisa : It's awful being a kid; no one listens to you.
Grampa Simpson : It's rotten being old; no one listens to ya!
Homer Simpson : I'm a white male, age 18 to 49. Everyone listens to me-no matter how dumb my suggestions are.
Can Of Nuts : Nuts and gum: together at last!

[spartana]

Simpsons 1994:

Lisa : It's awful being a kid; no one listens to you.
Grampa Simpson : It's rotten being old; no one listens to ya!
Homer Simpson : I'm a white male, age 18 to 49. Everyone listens to me-no matter how dumb my suggestions are.
Can Of Nuts : Nuts and gum: together at last!

[Ron Scott]

Well, I was trying to get men to feel what life would be like if a market segment did not cater to them, like so much of the market ignores women.  That didn't go well. Sigh.

In my darker moments I feel that some men work hard to be oblivious.  This is one of them.

I guess now would be a bad time to comment on the fact that women have an excellent selection of shampoos and conditioners?

[spartana]

Well, I was trying to get men to feel what life would be like if a market segment did not cater to them, like so much of the market ignores women.  That didn't go well. Sigh.

In my darker moments I feel that some men work hard to be oblivious.  This is one of them.

I guess now would be a bad time to comment on the fact that women have an excellent selection of shampoos and conditioners?

At double the cost sometimes. The pink tax.

[AlanStache]

...
I guess now would be a bad time to comment on the fact that women have an excellent selection of shampoos and conditioners?

You are more than welcome to buy and use whatever personal cleaning products you like.  You dont have to look like the person on the bottle. 

[GuitarStv]

Well, I was trying to get men to feel what life would be like if a market segment did not cater to them, like so much of the market ignores women.  That didn't go well. Sigh.

In my darker moments I feel that some men work hard to be oblivious.  This is one of them.

I guess now would be a bad time to comment on the fact that women have an excellent selection of shampoos and conditioners?

At double the cost sometimes. The pink tax.

And both are completely unnecessary luxury products.  I've been washing my hair bars of Irish Spring soap for close to three decades now with no ill consequences.  (Including many years where my hair reached down to my shoulders.)  :P

[spartana]

Well, I was trying to get men to feel what life would be like if a market segment did not cater to them, like so much of the market ignores women.  That didn't go well. Sigh.

In my darker moments I feel that some men work hard to be oblivious.  This is one of them.

I guess now would be a bad time to comment on the fact that women have an excellent selection of shampoos and conditioners?

At double the cost sometimes. The pink tax.

And both are completely unnecessary luxury products.  I've been washing my hair bars of Irish Spring soap for close to three decades now with no ill consequences.  (Including many years where my hair reached down to my shoulders.)  :P

Agree but, unfortunately women and girls are bombarded from birth to be "beautiful" and we all know that beauty comes in very expensive bottles full of crappy harmful ingredients (sarcasm). I use a cheap bar soap, inexpensive shampoo and conditioner (got that very long hair), deodrant and lotion/suncreen and call it good. Most non- mustashian women fall prey to all the ads. And also unfortunately many men expect women to be Barbie-Perfect at all times and that adds to the problem.

[Metalcat]

Well, I was trying to get men to feel what life would be like if a market segment did not cater to them, like so much of the market ignores women.  That didn't go well. Sigh.

In my darker moments I feel that some men work hard to be oblivious.  This is one of them.

I guess now would be a bad time to comment on the fact that women have an excellent selection of shampoos and conditioners?

At double the cost sometimes. The pink tax.

And both are completely unnecessary luxury products.  I've been washing my hair bars of Irish Spring soap for close to three decades now with no ill consequences.  (Including many years where my hair reached down to my shoulders.)  :P

Agree but, unfortunately women and girls are bombarded from birth to be "beautiful" and we all know that beauty comes in very expensive bottles full of crappy harmful ingredients (sarcasm). I use a cheap bar soap, inexpensive shampoo and conditioner (got that very long hair), deodrant and lotion/suncreen and call it good. Most non- mustashian women fall prey to all the ads. And also unfortunately many men expect women to be Barbie-Perfect at all times and that adds to the problem.

As a former glamazon, can attest that it's VERY easy to feel like you have to keep up with that shit. I was raised by a model, so I was pretty screwed from the jump.

It took A LOT for me to deprogram myself.

[partgypsy]

Well, I was trying to get men to feel what life would be like if a market segment did not cater to them, like so much of the market ignores women.  That didn't go well. Sigh.

In my darker moments I feel that some men work hard to be oblivious.  This is one of them.

I guess now would be a bad time to comment on the fact that women have an excellent selection of shampoos and conditioners?

I would rather have reproductive healthcare.

[LennStar]

Well, I was trying to get men to feel what life would be like if a market segment did not cater to them, like so much of the market ignores women.  That didn't go well. Sigh.

In my darker moments I feel that some men work hard to be oblivious.  This is one of them.

I guess now would be a bad time to comment on the fact that women have an excellent selection of shampoos and conditioners?

At double the cost sometimes. The pink tax.

And both are completely unnecessary luxury products.  I've been washing my hair bars of Irish Spring soap for close to three decades now with no ill consequences.  (Including many years where my hair reached down to my shoulders.)  :P

You lucky one. I seem to have a strange chemistry on my head. I tested over a dozen products and there is only one that really works. It isn't sold here, so every time I visit my mother, I take a few bottles (they are quite small) with me. Luckily though they are small, it's a discounter store brand, so not expensive.

[Metalcat]

Well, I was trying to get men to feel what life would be like if a market segment did not cater to them, like so much of the market ignores women.  That didn't go well. Sigh.

In my darker moments I feel that some men work hard to be oblivious.  This is one of them.

I guess now would be a bad time to comment on the fact that women have an excellent selection of shampoos and conditioners?

I would rather have reproductive healthcare.

Same.

Side-eyes the left ovary that could blow any moment and is strangulating itself, but the state of research on women's reproductive systems is such that virtually no MD, not even the gynecologists are educated that chronic ovarian torsion even exists.

Because we don't fucking research the female body.

Or...y'know, the impact that all of the allergens and endocrine disruptors that we put in the shampoos and cosmetics to make them look and smell expensive. Oh wait, we do research those, we just don't regulate them...

[merula]

Have we all seen "Never Really Studied The Female Body"? https://www.instagram.com/ilovefarideh/reel/C71z9v0JoGA

[Metalcat]

Well, I was trying to get men to feel what life would be like if a market segment did not cater to them, like so much of the market ignores women.  That didn't go well. Sigh.

In my darker moments I feel that some men work hard to be oblivious.  This is one of them.

I guess now would be a bad time to comment on the fact that women have an excellent selection of shampoos and conditioners?

At double the cost sometimes. The pink tax.

And both are completely unnecessary luxury products.  I've been washing my hair bars of Irish Spring soap for close to three decades now with no ill consequences.  (Including many years where my hair reached down to my shoulders.)  :P

You lucky one. I seem to have a strange chemistry on my head. I tested over a dozen products and there is only one that really works. It isn't sold here, so every time I visit my mother, I take a few bottles (they are quite small) with me. Luckily though they are small, it's a discounter store brand, so not expensive.

It's often the cheap store brands that have fewer irritants in them that work best for folks with finicky skin.

Most of what makes shampoo expensive is shit that can cause harm, especially for folks with any kind of sensitivity.

[Metalcat]

Have we all seen "Never Really Studied The Female Body"? https://www.instagram.com/ilovefarideh/reel/C71z9v0JoGA

I'm betting a lot of the women in this thread have...

[RetiredAt63]

I want to vomit.  OK, men, tell us why any of us should trust any of you? 

Her husband!?!  The one man a woman hopes - hopes because so many husbands abuse/betray their wives - she can trust?  And 50 men in a town of 6000 is what percentage of the adult men?  Fine upstanding citizens, absolutely disgusting.

If you don't already know what I am talking about, google Dominique Pelicot.

This poor woman thought she was developing Alzheimers.  I'm sure she now wishes that was her problem.


As far as I am concerned, anyone treating this subject lightly or jokingly has just shown themself to be a misogynist of the highest order.  Where is Themiscyra?  I want to move there.

[Kris]

I want to vomit.  OK, men, tell us why any of us should trust any of you? 

Her husband!?!  The one man a woman hopes - hopes because so many husbands abuse/betray their wives - she can trust?  And 50 men in a town of 6000 is what percentage of the adult men?  Fine upstanding citizens, absolutely disgusting.

If you don't already know what I am talking about, google Dominique Pelicot.

This poor woman thought she was developing Alzheimers.  I'm sure she now wishes that was her problem.


As far as I am concerned, anyone treating this subject lightly or jokingly has just shown themself to be a misogynist of the highest order.  Where is Themiscyra?  I want to move there.

Holy shit.

[Metalcat]

I want to vomit.  OK, men, tell us why any of us should trust any of you? 

Her husband!?!  The one man a woman hopes - hopes because so many husbands abuse/betray their wives - she can trust?  And 50 men in a town of 6000 is what percentage of the adult men?  Fine upstanding citizens, absolutely disgusting.

If you don't already know what I am talking about, google Dominique Pelicot.

This poor woman thought she was developing Alzheimers.  I'm sure she now wishes that was her problem.


As far as I am concerned, anyone treating this subject lightly or jokingly has just shown themself to be a misogynist of the highest order.  Where is Themiscyra?  I want to move there.

Over a decade. Caught only by chance because he was sloppy enough to be obviously taking upskirt photos in public.

Recruited fellow rapists on a forum devoted to violating women...

Yep.

As someone who sits through a lot of the rubble of familial rape, I wanted to share a nice disturbing thought for those of you who don't realize how many familial.rape victims you encounter as part of your day-to-day routine, oh, and how many familial rapists you encounter as well.

We've covered the stats of incidence of sexual assault among women, but children and disabled women are several times more likely to be raped than adults women. Several times. Primarily by trusted family members. And the stats on how many children and disabled woman that is is vomit-inducing.

“More than 90% of individuals with a developmental delay or disability will be sexually assaulted at least once in their lifetime.” (Valenti-Heim, D.m Schwartz L.)-excerpt from a report for the US Department of Justice

So basic logic.means that of all of the men who *don't* rape, a chunk of them would, if only they had better access to vulnerable people.

[Wolfpack Mustachian]

I want to vomit.  OK, men, tell us why any of us should trust any of you? 

Her husband!?!  The one man a woman hopes - hopes because so many husbands abuse/betray their wives - she can trust?  And 50 men in a town of 6000 is what percentage of the adult men?  Fine upstanding citizens, absolutely disgusting.

If you don't already know what I am talking about, google Dominique Pelicot.

This poor woman thought she was developing Alzheimers.  I'm sure she now wishes that was her problem.


As far as I am concerned, anyone treating this subject lightly or jokingly has just shown themself to be a misogynist of the highest order.  Where is Themiscyra?  I want to move there.

Are many people treating this jokingly? Not being sarcastic -  I haven't heard about it before this post and really don't want to start googling to try to find people making light of it. Reprehensible, vile, and evil don't seem to come close to capturing this....

[RetiredAt63]

I want to vomit.  OK, men, tell us why any of us should trust any of you? 

Her husband!?!  The one man a woman hopes - hopes because so many husbands abuse/betray their wives - she can trust?  And 50 men in a town of 6000 is what percentage of the adult men?  Fine upstanding citizens, absolutely disgusting.

If you don't already know what I am talking about, google Dominique Pelicot.

This poor woman thought she was developing Alzheimers.  I'm sure she now wishes that was her problem.


As far as I am concerned, anyone treating this subject lightly or jokingly has just shown themself to be a misogynist of the highest order.  Where is Themiscyra?  I want to move there.

Are many people treating this jokingly? Not being sarcastic -  I haven't heard about it before this post and really don't want to start googling to try to find people making light of it. Reprehensible, vile, and evil don't seem to come close to capturing this....

No, but given some of the posts in this thread it seemed possible.

[twinstudy]

Well, I was trying to get men to feel what life would be like if a market segment did not cater to them, like so much of the market ignores women.  That didn't go well. Sigh.

In my darker moments I feel that some men work hard to be oblivious.  This is one of them.

I understand what you were trying to achieve. I'm a man, but a migrant one who was born in a non-English speaking country, so I have some understanding of having to cater to the dominant norm.

Sometimes I wonder whether it is possible for straight white American men to really perceive how easy life is for them. I'm not saying life isn't easy for others, but you're playing at a massive advantage if you are in the dominant, hegemonic culture/gender. No one should be blamed for being in such a position, but I do find it hilarious how quickly some people bleat when their dominance is taken away: when affirmative action gives migrants and people of colour a fair go in employment, or when globalisation means that smart foreigners can start taking your job if you don't up skill and educate yourself. Or, of course, when "feminism" means that women have to be treated with respect in the workplace.

To me, it's an absolutely glorious sight to see. The bleating of the complacent masses.

[Ron Scott]

Well, I was trying to get men to feel what life would be like if a market segment did not cater to them, like so much of the market ignores women.  That didn't go well. Sigh.

In my darker moments I feel that some men work hard to be oblivious.  This is one of them.

I understand what you were trying to achieve. I'm a man, but a migrant one who was born in a non-English speaking country, so I have some understanding of having to cater to the dominant norm.

Sometimes I wonder whether it is possible for straight white American men to really perceive how easy life is for them. I'm not saying life isn't easy for others, but you're playing at a massive advantage if you are in the dominant, hegemonic culture/gender. No one should be blamed for being in such a position, but I do find it hilarious how quickly some people bleat when their dominance is taken away: when affirmative action gives migrants and people of colour a fair go in employment, or when globalisation means that smart foreigners can start taking your job if you don't up skill and educate yourself. Or, of course, when "feminism" means that women have to be treated with respect in the workplace.

To me, it's an absolutely glorious sight to see. The bleating of the complacent masses.

The danger in this however lies in the reactionary effects, such as nationalism, deepened racism, anti-immigration policies, and so on. The masses do not go down bleating…they blaze.

Martin Luther King addressed this in talking about white backlash following the passage of major civil rights legislation that left many blacks worse off than before. And MAGA can certainly be seen as a liberating reaction to Obama. The rise of the far right in Europe is analogous. None of it is glorious.

The relationship options for men and women now seem to be couched in assessments of personal value: “What does commitment get me that I can’t get without it, or without paying too high a price?” It’s the wrong question, but we’re in changing times so.

Societies change and those on top of some aspects of life end up with less. Most of the time however, I’m just not sure where the winners are.

[Kris]

Well, I was trying to get men to feel what life would be like if a market segment did not cater to them, like so much of the market ignores women.  That didn't go well. Sigh.

In my darker moments I feel that some men work hard to be oblivious.  This is one of them.

I understand what you were trying to achieve. I'm a man, but a migrant one who was born in a non-English speaking country, so I have some understanding of having to cater to the dominant norm.

Sometimes I wonder whether it is possible for straight white American men to really perceive how easy life is for them. I'm not saying life isn't easy for others, but you're playing at a massive advantage if you are in the dominant, hegemonic culture/gender. No one should be blamed for being in such a position, but I do find it hilarious how quickly some people bleat when their dominance is taken away: when affirmative action gives migrants and people of colour a fair go in employment, or when globalisation means that smart foreigners can start taking your job if you don't up skill and educate yourself. Or, of course, when "feminism" means that women have to be treated with respect in the workplace.

To me, it's an absolutely glorious sight to see. The bleating of the complacent masses.

The danger in this however lies in the reactionary effects, such as nationalism, deepened racism, anti-immigration policies, and so on. The masses do not go down bleating…they blaze.

Martin Luther King addressed this in talking about white backlash following the passage of major civil rights legislation that left many blacks worse off than before. And MAGA can certainly be seen as a liberating reaction to Obama. The rise of the far right in Europe is analogous. None of it is glorious.

The relationship options for men and women now seem to be couched in assessments of personal value: “What does commitment get me that I can’t get without it, or without paying too high a price?” It’s the wrong question, but we’re in changing times so.

Societies change and those on top of some aspects of life end up with less. Most of the time however, I’m just not sure where the winners are.

If that is the wrong question, what is the right one?

[Ron Scott]

Well, I was trying to get men to feel what life would be like if a market segment did not cater to them, like so much of the market ignores women.  That didn't go well. Sigh.

In my darker moments I feel that some men work hard to be oblivious.  This is one of them.

I understand what you were trying to achieve. I'm a man, but a migrant one who was born in a non-English speaking country, so I have some understanding of having to cater to the dominant norm.

Sometimes I wonder whether it is possible for straight white American men to really perceive how easy life is for them. I'm not saying life isn't easy for others, but you're playing at a massive advantage if you are in the dominant, hegemonic culture/gender. No one should be blamed for being in such a position, but I do find it hilarious how quickly some people bleat when their dominance is taken away: when affirmative action gives migrants and people of colour a fair go in employment, or when globalisation means that smart foreigners can start taking your job if you don't up skill and educate yourself. Or, of course, when "feminism" means that women have to be treated with respect in the workplace.

To me, it's an absolutely glorious sight to see. The bleating of the complacent masses.

The danger in this however lies in the reactionary effects, such as nationalism, deepened racism, anti-immigration policies, and so on. The masses do not go down bleating…they blaze.

Martin Luther King addressed this in talking about white backlash following the passage of major civil rights legislation that left many blacks worse off than before. And MAGA can certainly be seen as a liberating reaction to Obama. The rise of the far right in Europe is analogous. None of it is glorious.

The relationship options for men and women now seem to be couched in assessments of personal value: “What does commitment get me that I can’t get without it, or without paying too high a price?” It’s the wrong question, but we’re in changing times so.

Societies change and those on top of some aspects of life end up with less. Most of the time however, I’m just not sure where the winners are.

If that is the wrong question, what is the right one?

Do my beliefs, expectations, and qualities compliment this person’s in a way that a marriage will make each of us better together than alone?

[Kris]

Well, I was trying to get men to feel what life would be like if a market segment did not cater to them, like so much of the market ignores women.  That didn't go well. Sigh.

In my darker moments I feel that some men work hard to be oblivious.  This is one of them.

I understand what you were trying to achieve. I'm a man, but a migrant one who was born in a non-English speaking country, so I have some understanding of having to cater to the dominant norm.

Sometimes I wonder whether it is possible for straight white American men to really perceive how easy life is for them. I'm not saying life isn't easy for others, but you're playing at a massive advantage if you are in the dominant, hegemonic culture/gender. No one should be blamed for being in such a position, but I do find it hilarious how quickly some people bleat when their dominance is taken away: when affirmative action gives migrants and people of colour a fair go in employment, or when globalisation means that smart foreigners can start taking your job if you don't up skill and educate yourself. Or, of course, when "feminism" means that women have to be treated with respect in the workplace.

To me, it's an absolutely glorious sight to see. The bleating of the complacent masses.

The danger in this however lies in the reactionary effects, such as nationalism, deepened racism, anti-immigration policies, and so on. The masses do not go down bleating…they blaze.

Martin Luther King addressed this in talking about white backlash following the passage of major civil rights legislation that left many blacks worse off than before. And MAGA can certainly be seen as a liberating reaction to Obama. The rise of the far right in Europe is analogous. None of it is glorious.

The relationship options for men and women now seem to be couched in assessments of personal value: “What does commitment get me that I can’t get without it, or without paying too high a price?” It’s the wrong question, but we’re in changing times so.

Societies change and those on top of some aspects of life end up with less. Most of the time however, I’m just not sure where the winners are.

If that is the wrong question, what is the right one?

Do my beliefs, expectations, and qualities compliment this person’s in a way that a marriage will make each of us better together than alone?

I pretty much see that as another way of asking the same question:

Am I better off with this person than I am by myself?

For a lot of history, women's answer to this almost HAD to be "yes" because most of them could not fend for themselves in a society that would not let them.

I personally am incredibly thankful that I can choose to not be with anyone unless and until I find someone whose presence makes my life better. And I sure as hell am thankful for that for younger generations of women. (And men, to be sure, but their equations to determine this are likely to be quite different.)

[partgypsy]

Culture is shared. Jim crow laws and the unjust situation for black Americans in the south yes had to do with laws and policies and differential policing. But it also could not have existed without every day white people's complicit acceptance of that situation. So, as a culture we can now say we are enlightened. That we do not accept racists and fascist to get away with actions they did get away with in the past. A policy of appeasement never works with dictators and bullies. https://www.snopes.com/news/2017/01/24/captain-americas-co-creator-punch-nazis/

[Metalcat]

Culture is shared. Jim crow laws and the unjust situation for black Americans in the south yes had to do with laws and policies and differential policing. But it also could not have existed without every day white people's complicit acceptance of that situation. So, as a culture we can now say we are enlightened. That we do not accept racists and fascist to get away with actions they did get away with in the past. A policy of appeasement never works with dictators and bullies. https://www.snopes.com/news/2017/01/24/captain-americas-co-creator-punch-nazis/

Rachel Maddow's new book Prequel covers this extremely well. It's not on my "required reading for Americans" list because it outlines beautifully how the Nazis actually took a lot of their playbook from the US, especially in how the courts play a crucial role in promoting bigotry within an ostensibly egalitarian legal system.

If all the white folks just all quietly agree to racism and all of the judges just quietly agree to it as well, unfathomably racist use of anti-racist laws can occur. You don't need racism to officially exist on the books, you just need the court system to apply the law through an accepted, racist lens, and that can be systematically cultivated, as we are currently seeing, which is the entire point of the book, that these strategies are just recycled.

The entire time I was listening to the book on a long drive I just kept thinking "Oh FFS, it's literally the exact same playbook from a hundred years ago!!!"

[MustacheAndaHalf]

Well, I was trying to get men to feel what life would be like if a market segment did not cater to them, like so much of the market ignores women.  That didn't go well. Sigh.

In my darker moments I feel that some men work hard to be oblivious.  This is one of them.

Then don't lie to make your points.  I tried to be polite in my first reply, but you persisted in claiming shoe and clothing sizes for American men are not available in Asia, which is false.

For men in North America I suggest the thought experiment of living in an Asian country where everyone is smaller.   No men's clothing,  shoes, etc. in your size, you are too big.  Suddenly life is more difficult.

I thought it was pretty self-evident that she wasn't saying that those sizes don't exist, but that the experience of the larger American male will often be to walk into a store and not have it cater to them as the target market.

Except she literally said that, as I already quoted repeatedly:

For men in North America I suggest the thought experiment of living in an Asian country where everyone is smaller.   No men's clothing,  shoes, etc. in your size, you are too big.  Suddenly life is more difficult.

You are quoting the 3rd paragraph of a 5 paragraph post that came as part of a long discussion.  So you are being very out of context.
If you are going to quote me, quote the whole paragraph:
People who fit the norm,  whatever it is for their area, don't realize how difficult it can be when a person doesn't fit the norm.  For men in North America I suggest the thought experiment of living in an Asian country where everyone is smaller.   No men's clothing,  shoes, etc. in your size, you are too big.  Suddenly life is more difficult.

The important part of that paragraph was the bolded part, basically the part everyone has been ignoring.  Sure you can find what you need if you have the money - you may not find what you want, you may have to settle, you may have to go to specialty stores, or you may have the money to buy custom-made.   But you won't walk into a general purpose store and find what you want.

You have repeatedly claimed that in Asia, western men cannot find their sizes.  You refuse to admit you are wrong - to be accountable for your example being made up.  First, you claimed sizes weren't available... then you claimed the numbering was different, but the size was still a problem... now you claim it is only luxury/specialty stores.  You cannot admit you're wrong, and from personal experience I know you're wrong.

Have you shopped for men's clothing in Asia?

There are dozens of Uniqlo stores in the United States, which is a Japanese brand.  It is not a luxury brand.  There are multiple Uniqlo stores in Tokyo, Japan's capital.  Those stores offer sizes for western men - and I have personally bought clothing there, among other places.  But you won't admit you're wrong - you'll start explaining that Japan or Uniqlo are exceptions in Asia, or that it is a luxury brand.  But you started off claiming western men can't buy clothing in Asia at all - and you will keep moving the goalposts until the discussion ends.

[MustacheAndaHalf]

Well, I was trying to get men to feel what life would be like if a market segment did not cater to them, like so much of the market ignores women.  That didn't go well. Sigh.

In my darker moments I feel that some men work hard to be oblivious.  This is one of them.

Then don't lie to make your points.  I tried to be polite in my first reply, but you persisted in claiming shoe and clothing sizes for American men are not available in Asia, which is false.

For men in North America I suggest the thought experiment of living in an Asian country where everyone is smaller.   No men's clothing,  shoes, etc. in your size, you are too big.  Suddenly life is more difficult.

I thought it was pretty self-evident that she wasn't saying that those sizes don't exist, but that the experience of the larger American male will often be to walk into a store and not have it cater to them as the target market.

Except she literally said that, as I already quoted repeatedly:

For men in North America I suggest the thought experiment of living in an Asian country where everyone is smaller.   No men's clothing,  shoes, etc. in your size, you are too big.  Suddenly life is more difficult.

Yes, I understand that she said that. I thought is was very self-evident that she meant that men would go into stores that would have no options for them, the same way I described going into stores that had no options for me.

I think it's very obvious that options are available in those countries somewhere, but that in a lot of stores there would be "no" options available. I thought it was very self evident that she wasn't saying that it's impossible to find the right size, just that it becomes more difficult.

Just like it's very possible to find a lot of smaller tools for women's hand sizes, it's just a lot more difficult than a dude with big hands sauntering into Home Depot and buying whatever is on sale and knowing it will work for them.

When you are raised as the dominant group that is almost universally marketed to, it's difficult to understand what the minority experience is like. That's what she was saying and, again, as much as you quote her, I still think that was abundantly clear.

What is your evidence what "a lot of stores" in Asia have no sizes for western men?

Because speculating on what she said - and assuming it is true - doesn't show if she is wrong or not.  It just shows that, without evidence, you will take her side and support her view.  Have you shopped for men's clothing in Asia?

[Metalcat]

Well, I was trying to get men to feel what life would be like if a market segment did not cater to them, like so much of the market ignores women.  That didn't go well. Sigh.

In my darker moments I feel that some men work hard to be oblivious.  This is one of them.

Then don't lie to make your points.  I tried to be polite in my first reply, but you persisted in claiming shoe and clothing sizes for American men are not available in Asia, which is false.

For men in North America I suggest the thought experiment of living in an Asian country where everyone is smaller.   No men's clothing,  shoes, etc. in your size, you are too big.  Suddenly life is more difficult.

I thought it was pretty self-evident that she wasn't saying that those sizes don't exist, but that the experience of the larger American male will often be to walk into a store and not have it cater to them as the target market.

Except she literally said that, as I already quoted repeatedly:

For men in North America I suggest the thought experiment of living in an Asian country where everyone is smaller.   No men's clothing,  shoes, etc. in your size, you are too big.  Suddenly life is more difficult.

Yes, I understand that she said that. I thought is was very self-evident that she meant that men would go into stores that would have no options for them, the same way I described going into stores that had no options for me.

I think it's very obvious that options are available in those countries somewhere, but that in a lot of stores there would be "no" options available. I thought it was very self evident that she wasn't saying that it's impossible to find the right size, just that it becomes more difficult.

Just like it's very possible to find a lot of smaller tools for women's hand sizes, it's just a lot more difficult than a dude with big hands sauntering into Home Depot and buying whatever is on sale and knowing it will work for them.

When you are raised as the dominant group that is almost universally marketed to, it's difficult to understand what the minority experience is like. That's what she was saying and, again, as much as you quote her, I still think that was abundantly clear.

What is your evidence what "a lot of stores" in Asia have no sizes for western men?

Because speculating on what she said - and assuming it is true - doesn't show if she is wrong or not.  It just shows that, without evidence, you will take her side and support her view.  Have you shopped for men's clothing in Asia?

No, but I have multiple family members who spend a lot of time in Asian countries for business and report on how it can be very difficult in some regions to buy clothes, shoes in particular, especially if not in a major urban center. What she said aligned with what I have heard from big white men who have lived or spent a lot of time in Asian countries, so I didn't think to assume that she "lying."

[Telecaster]

I guess now would be a bad time to comment on the fact that women have an excellent selection of shampoos and conditioners?

And cool clothes.   When I was in rock and roll bands I'd shop in the women's sections of thrift shops.   

[Morning Glory]

Well, I was trying to get men to feel what life would be like if a market segment did not cater to them, like so much of the market ignores women.  That didn't go well. Sigh.

In my darker moments I feel that some men work hard to be oblivious.  This is one of them.

Then don't lie to make your points.  I tried to be polite in my first reply, but you persisted in claiming shoe and clothing sizes for American men are not available in Asia, which is false.

For men in North America I suggest the thought experiment of living in an Asian country where everyone is smaller.   No men's clothing,  shoes, etc. in your size, you are too big.  Suddenly life is more difficult.

I thought it was pretty self-evident that she wasn't saying that those sizes don't exist, but that the experience of the larger American male will often be to walk into a store and not have it cater to them as the target market.

Except she literally said that, as I already quoted repeatedly:

For men in North America I suggest the thought experiment of living in an Asian country where everyone is smaller.   No men's clothing,  shoes, etc. in your size, you are too big.  Suddenly life is more difficult.

Yes, I understand that she said that. I thought is was very self-evident that she meant that men would go into stores that would have no options for them, the same way I described going into stores that had no options for me.

I think it's very obvious that options are available in those countries somewhere, but that in a lot of stores there would be "no" options available. I thought it was very self evident that she wasn't saying that it's impossible to find the right size, just that it becomes more difficult.

Just like it's very possible to find a lot of smaller tools for women's hand sizes, it's just a lot more difficult than a dude with big hands sauntering into Home Depot and buying whatever is on sale and knowing it will work for them.

When you are raised as the dominant group that is almost universally marketed to, it's difficult to understand what the minority experience is like. That's what she was saying and, again, as much as you quote her, I still think that was abundantly clear.

What is your evidence what "a lot of stores" in Asia have no sizes for western men?

Because speculating on what she said - and assuming it is true - doesn't show if she is wrong or not.  It just shows that, without evidence, you will take her side and support her view.  Have you shopped for men's clothing in Asia?

I read it as just an example of where it takes extra effort or time to find what you need. I think other posters have pointed this out to you already. It doesn't matter that it's "clothes" or "Asia". My husband is 6'5" and also obese. He can't find clothes that fit in most stores in the US. He jokes that big and tall should really be called "big OR tall" because all the pants with a big enough waist are too short and the tall ones are too skinny. Plus size shirts are available but not in extra tall unless you order online.

  I am an average sized woman eho can buy clothes in a multipack at costco and yet the seatbelts and headrests in the car fit him better than they fit me. I can't lean back on the seat without my chin being in my chest unless I stick a pillow behind my back, and the seatbelt cuts across my neck on the lowest setting.  I am 5'4", not super short.