Are women done with men?

[Ron Scott]

<snip, because this is getting really long>

I think there are many men who really have no interest in a career or even dealing with the hassle of 9-5 at all, and would be more than happy to be stay-at-homes, supported by a highly-paid wife so long as she makes a commitment to getting the family to FI on her paycheck.

Sure, but it's not about "not having a career", it's about doing close to a regular day's worth of work every day, just in a way that's invisible to most of society. Maintaining a house and a family and a relationship and raising kids is not just something you do when you get around to it.

One of my BIL's didn't want to work, but also didn't want to do the work of being a primary caretaker for the home and his daughters.  You can't do nothing -- it's just that what you're doing is a lot less likely to get approval from society.

I have no illusions about the job of child rearing and homemaking being something you do when you get around to it. It’s work, for sure; let’s stipulate to that. But it’s a different kind of work than many men complain about, i.e., the commute-9>5-commute; weaving a career through all sorts of obstacles; nasty bosses, etc.

I simply believe there are many men who would take the deal of having a career-driven, highly paid woman bring home the $$ and work to get the family to FI, if he could to the hard work of raising the kid(s) and doing the homemaking.

No every man would like this, buy many would IMO.

[Kris]

<snip, because this is getting really long>

I think there are many men who really have no interest in a career or even dealing with the hassle of 9-5 at all, and would be more than happy to be stay-at-homes, supported by a highly-paid wife so long as she makes a commitment to getting the family to FI on her paycheck.

Sure, but it's not about "not having a career", it's about doing close to a regular day's worth of work every day, just in a way that's invisible to most of society. Maintaining a house and a family and a relationship and raising kids is not just something you do when you get around to it.

One of my BIL's didn't want to work, but also didn't want to do the work of being a primary caretaker for the home and his daughters.  You can't do nothing -- it's just that what you're doing is a lot less likely to get approval from society.

I have no illusions about the job of child rearing and homemaking being something you do when you get around to it. It’s work, for sure; let’s stipulate to that. But it’s a different kind of work than many men complain about, i.e., the commute-9>5-commute; weaving a career through all sorts of obstacles; nasty bosses, etc.

I simply believe there are many men who would take the deal of having a career-driven, highly paid woman bring home the $$ and work to get the family to FI, if he could to the hard work of raising the kid(s) and doing the homemaking.

No every man would like this, buy many would IMO.

The question is, how many of those men would actually do that work. And how many would just let the kids run feral, not keep up with the domestic labor, and just sit around gaming all day and expecting their wife to take care of everything when she gets home.

[Ron Scott]

<snip, because this is getting really long>

I think there are many men who really have no interest in a career or even dealing with the hassle of 9-5 at all, and would be more than happy to be stay-at-homes, supported by a highly-paid wife so long as she makes a commitment to getting the family to FI on her paycheck.

Sure, but it's not about "not having a career", it's about doing close to a regular day's worth of work every day, just in a way that's invisible to most of society. Maintaining a house and a family and a relationship and raising kids is not just something you do when you get around to it.

One of my BIL's didn't want to work, but also didn't want to do the work of being a primary caretaker for the home and his daughters.  You can't do nothing -- it's just that what you're doing is a lot less likely to get approval from society.

I have no illusions about the job of child rearing and homemaking being something you do when you get around to it. It’s work, for sure; let’s stipulate to that. But it’s a different kind of work than many men complain about, i.e., the commute-9>5-commute; weaving a career through all sorts of obstacles; nasty bosses, etc.

I simply believe there are many men who would take the deal of having a career-driven, highly paid woman bring home the $$ and work to get the family to FI, if he could to the hard work of raising the kid(s) and doing the homemaking.

No every man would like this, buy many would IMO.

The question is, how many of those men would actually do that work. And how many would just let the kids run feral, not keep up with the domestic labor, and just sit around gaming all day and expecting their wife to take care of everything when she gets home.

Of course, people lie and change over time. Such is life. There are women who do the same LOL and we muddle through, don’t we?

Bottom line: It’s probably time to drop the traditional roles, recognize that many women want a family and career, many men don’t want work for pay, and match the right men to the right women on that end of the spectrum.

[jeninco]

<snip, because this is getting really long>

I think there are many men who really have no interest in a career or even dealing with the hassle of 9-5 at all, and would be more than happy to be stay-at-homes, supported by a highly-paid wife so long as she makes a commitment to getting the family to FI on her paycheck.

Sure, but it's not about "not having a career", it's about doing close to a regular day's worth of work every day, just in a way that's invisible to most of society. Maintaining a house and a family and a relationship and raising kids is not just something you do when you get around to it.

One of my BIL's didn't want to work, but also didn't want to do the work of being a primary caretaker for the home and his daughters.  You can't do nothing -- it's just that what you're doing is a lot less likely to get approval from society.

I have no illusions about the job of child rearing and homemaking being something you do when you get around to it. It’s work, for sure; let’s stipulate to that. But it’s a different kind of work than many men complain about, i.e., the commute-9>5-commute; weaving a career through all sorts of obstacles; nasty bosses, etc.

I simply believe there are many men who would take the deal of having a career-driven, highly paid woman bring home the $$ and work to get the family to FI, if he could to the hard work of raising the kid(s) and doing the homemaking.

No every man would like this, buy many would IMO.

The question is, how many of those men would actually do that work. And how many would just let the kids run feral, not keep up with the domestic labor, and just sit around gaming all day and expecting their wife to take care of everything when she gets home.

Of course, people lie and change over time. Such is life. There are women who do the same LOL and we muddle through, don’t we?

Bottom line: It’s probably time to drop the traditional roles, recognize that many women want a family and career, many men don’t want work for pay, and match the right men to the right women on that end of the spectrum.

As has been mentioned, The System (or The Patriarchy) hurts just about everyone. Let people make their lives the way that is right for them! Men wanna learn about and take the lead on childrearing -- go them! Women want to be the primary earner, but will need some support -- also go them!  People want to find a third way? Also go them!

Also, everyone should practice having hard conversations before getting married, 'cause they're not going to get easier after you're committed and have kids!

[Villanelle]

It's not just about people lying though.  I could see plenty of men thinking that they would happily take on the stay at home role, only to be slapped upside the head with the halibut of reality when they see what that actually means.  Because we as a society don't value or acknowledge this work, it's probably very easy to think it's folding some laundry, grocery shopping, scrubbing a toilet, and then eating bon bons in all the remaining free time.  Since we don't talk about accurate representations of what the life is actually like, and since even the people in the roles often don't fully realize the extent of the work they do ("Oh, I never thought about how I have to pay attention to what junior talks about in the months up to his birthday so I can know what gifts to get him, and then search to find those items, and how that's a time and energy suck." <--this, times 1000), someone could in good faith say they are eager to take on the role, only to find that the actual expectations are intolerable.
~~~

Dropping the traditional roles isn't quite enough though.  If women who stay at home or work part time are taking on more than an even share of life's work, it doesn't become much better if suddenly a bunch of men are also taking on more than their fair share.  Yes, it would be great it we movd away from the gendered split of responsibilities and expectations. But we also need to start valuing that part of the work, and respecting it, and acknowledging it, and counting it when partners are looking at how to split responsibilites.

Now, I suspect that if men started filling these roles in significant numbers, some of that would happen automatically.  But I don't think it becomes a utopia when some men are being saddled with the unfair expectations that women have dealt with for centuries. 


~~~
I have a friend who is currently solo parenting.  Being surrounded by military families, this isn't especially uncommon.  Only in this case, her husband is not on planet earth.  I can not imagine the stress of raising young kids without help, without regular communication (though when DH and I started our military journey, email was just becoming available on ships and was far from reliable), and with the layer of extra fear that comes from work that's dangerous even to those used to military experiences.  Finding someone willing to sacrifice at that level--phew.  But we need those people if we want other people to be able to travel to space, or work on an oil rig, or be in the military.  Sure, some single people would do those things, but we need more people than just that pool.  And yet we minimize the role of the people--almost always women--who fill those roles.

[Psychstache]

only to be slapped upside the head with the halibut of reality

Everything you wrote was great, but this is the best new phrase and I will be stealing it to use when needed.

[Villanelle]

only to be slapped upside the head with the halibut of reality

Everything you wrote was great, but this is the best new phrase and I will be stealing it to use when needed.

I cannot take credit.  it was used regularly on a message board I used to be a part of.  They even had a smilie/emoji of a little happy face being slapped with a fish. 

[Sandi_k]

only to be slapped upside the head with the halibut of reality

Everything you wrote was great, but this is the best new phrase and I will be stealing it to use when needed.

I cannot take credit.  it was used regularly on a message board I used to be a part of.  They even had a smilie/emoji of a little happy face being slapped with a fish.

It made me immediately think of this:

https://youtu.be/T8XeDvKqI4E?feature=shared

[GuitarStv]

It's not just about people lying though.  I could see plenty of men thinking that they would happily take on the stay at home role, only to be slapped upside the head with the halibut of reality when they see what that actually means.  Because we as a society don't value or acknowledge this work, it's probably very easy to think it's folding some laundry, grocery shopping, scrubbing a toilet, and then eating bon bons in all the remaining free time.  Since we don't talk about accurate representations of what the life is actually like, and since even the people in the roles often don't fully realize the extent of the work they do ("Oh, I never thought about how I have to pay attention to what junior talks about in the months up to his birthday so I can know what gifts to get him, and then search to find those items, and how that's a time and energy suck." <--this, times 1000), someone could in good faith say they are eager to take on the role, only to find that the actual expectations are intolerable.
~~~

Dropping the traditional roles isn't quite enough though.  If women who stay at home or work part time are taking on more than an even share of life's work, it doesn't become much better if suddenly a bunch of men are also taking on more than their fair share.  Yes, it would be great it we movd away from the gendered split of responsibilities and expectations. But we also need to start valuing that part of the work, and respecting it, and acknowledging it, and counting it when partners are looking at how to split responsibilites.

Now, I suspect that if men started filling these roles in significant numbers, some of that would happen automatically.  But I don't think it becomes a utopia when some men are being saddled with the unfair expectations that women have dealt with for centuries. 


~~~
I have a friend who is currently solo parenting.  Being surrounded by military families, this isn't especially uncommon.  Only in this case, her husband is not on planet earth.  I can not imagine the stress of raising young kids without help, without regular communication (though when DH and I started our military journey, email was just becoming available on ships and was far from reliable), and with the layer of extra fear that comes from work that's dangerous even to those used to military experiences.  Finding someone willing to sacrifice at that level--phew.  But we need those people if we want other people to be able to travel to space, or work on an oil rig, or be in the military.  Sure, some single people would do those things, but we need more people than just that pool.  And yet we minimize the role of the people--almost always women--who fill those roles.

Agreed - as a guy who at one point didn't really think the housework side of things was a big deal.  Now I find chores/housework to be much more difficult to perform that traditional 'guy' roles like fixing broken stuff around the house.  It's not that the actual tasks themselves (cleaning, cooking, getting groceries, doing laundry, watching the kid, etc.) are brutally hard to perform . . . but it's the fact that the task never really ends and that it's so easily undone that kind of grinds down on you sometimes.

Like there's nothing in the universe more disheartening that having just finished mopping the kitchen floor spotless, and then having your kid let the dog in from the back yard after some rain without wiping down her paws.

[Frugal Lizard]

only to be slapped upside the head with the halibut of reality

Everything you wrote was great, but this is the best new phrase and I will be stealing it to use when needed.

I cannot take credit.  it was used regularly on a message board I used to be a part of.  They even had a smilie/emoji of a little happy face being slapped with a fish.

It made me immediately think of this:

https://youtu.be/T8XeDvKqI4E?feature=shared

tears this is so funny!

[Frugal Lizard]

It's not just about people lying though.  I could see plenty of men thinking that they would happily take on the stay at home role, only to be slapped upside the head with the halibut of reality when they see what that actually means.  Because we as a society don't value or acknowledge this work, it's probably very easy to think it's folding some laundry, grocery shopping, scrubbing a toilet, and then eating bon bons in all the remaining free time.  Since we don't talk about accurate representations of what the life is actually like, and since even the people in the roles often don't fully realize the extent of the work they do ("Oh, I never thought about how I have to pay attention to what junior talks about in the months up to his birthday so I can know what gifts to get him, and then search to find those items, and how that's a time and energy suck." <--this, times 1000), someone could in good faith say they are eager to take on the role, only to find that the actual expectations are intolerable.
~~~

Dropping the traditional roles isn't quite enough though.  If women who stay at home or work part time are taking on more than an even share of life's work, it doesn't become much better if suddenly a bunch of men are also taking on more than their fair share.  Yes, it would be great it we movd away from the gendered split of responsibilities and expectations. But we also need to start valuing that part of the work, and respecting it, and acknowledging it, and counting it when partners are looking at how to split responsibilites.

Now, I suspect that if men started filling these roles in significant numbers, some of that would happen automatically.  But I don't think it becomes a utopia when some men are being saddled with the unfair expectations that women have dealt with for centuries. 


~~~
I have a friend who is currently solo parenting.  Being surrounded by military families, this isn't especially uncommon.  Only in this case, her husband is not on planet earth.  I can not imagine the stress of raising young kids without help, without regular communication (though when DH and I started our military journey, email was just becoming available on ships and was far from reliable), and with the layer of extra fear that comes from work that's dangerous even to those used to military experiences.  Finding someone willing to sacrifice at that level--phew.  But we need those people if we want other people to be able to travel to space, or work on an oil rig, or be in the military.  Sure, some single people would do those things, but we need more people than just that pool.  And yet we minimize the role of the people--almost always women--who fill those roles.

Agreed - as a guy who at one point didn't really think the housework side of things was a big deal.  Now I find chores/housework to be much more difficult to perform that traditional 'guy' roles like fixing broken stuff around the house.  It's not that the actual tasks themselves (cleaning, cooking, getting groceries, doing laundry, watching the kid, etc.) are brutally hard to perform . . . but it's the fact that the task never really ends and that it's so easily undone that kind of grinds down on you sometimes.

Like there's nothing in the universe more disheartening that having just finished mopping the kitchen floor spotless, and then having your kid let the dog in from the back yard after some rain without wiping down her paws.

Exactly. No period of enjoyment of a task completed well.

[Ron Scott]

It's not just about people lying though.  I could see plenty of men thinking that they would happily take on the stay at home role, only to be slapped upside the head with the halibut of reality when they see what that actually means.  Because we as a society don't value or acknowledge this work, it's probably very easy to think it's folding some laundry, grocery shopping, scrubbing a toilet, and then eating bon bons in all the remaining free time.  Since we don't talk about accurate representations of what the life is actually like, and since even the people in the roles often don't fully realize the extent of the work they do ("Oh, I never thought about how I have to pay attention to what junior talks about in the months up to his birthday so I can know what gifts to get him, and then search to find those items, and how that's a time and energy suck." <--this, times 1000), someone could in good faith say they are eager to take on the role, only to find that the actual expectations are intolerable.
~~~

Dropping the traditional roles isn't quite enough though.  If women who stay at home or work part time are taking on more than an even share of life's work, it doesn't become much better if suddenly a bunch of men are also taking on more than their fair share.  Yes, it would be great it we movd away from the gendered split of responsibilities and expectations. But we also need to start valuing that part of the work, and respecting it, and acknowledging it, and counting it when partners are looking at how to split responsibilites.

Now, I suspect that if men started filling these roles in significant numbers, some of that would happen automatically.  But I don't think it becomes a utopia when some men are being saddled with the unfair expectations that women have dealt with for centuries. 


~~~
I have a friend who is currently solo parenting.  Being surrounded by military families, this isn't especially uncommon.  Only in this case, her husband is not on planet earth.  I can not imagine the stress of raising young kids without help, without regular communication (though when DH and I started our military journey, email was just becoming available on ships and was far from reliable), and with the layer of extra fear that comes from work that's dangerous even to those used to military experiences.  Finding someone willing to sacrifice at that level--phew.  But we need those people if we want other people to be able to travel to space, or work on an oil rig, or be in the military.  Sure, some single people would do those things, but we need more people than just that pool.  And yet we minimize the role of the people--almost always women--who fill those roles.

Societies and our norms of behavior change VERY slowly, and the 20th century saw more change than ever. Not enough or fast enough for some, and too much for others.

I suspect change will continue. The reactionaries will lose as they usually do and change will be lumpy as it usually is. It’s possible the rate of change will accelerate. (I’m actually surprised at the level of acceptance of LGBTQ as I didn’t think that would happen so quickly.)

America is a conservative country but the liberal elements of society are very good—and very persistent—at highlighting the value in accepting differences among people and lifestyles. This is helpful long term.

Your points are good ones and thoughtful. Over time, men will assume more responsibility for raising children. They’ll do it differently than women but they’ll be equally competent…eventually.

In the meantime, the traditional expectations of men as the logical breadwinners in a family will undergo change too. VERY slowly methinks.

[partgypsy]

It's not just about people lying though.  I could see plenty of men thinking that they would happily take on the stay at home role, only to be slapped upside the head with the halibut of reality when they see what that actually means.  Because we as a society don't value or acknowledge this work, it's probably very easy to think it's folding some laundry, grocery shopping, scrubbing a toilet, and then eating bon bons in all the remaining free time.  Since we don't talk about accurate representations of what the life is actually like, and since even the people in the roles often don't fully realize the extent of the work they do ("Oh, I never thought about how I have to pay attention to what junior talks about in the months up to his birthday so I can know what gifts to get him, and then search to find those items, and how that's a time and energy suck." <--this, times 1000), someone could in good faith say they are eager to take on the role, only to find that the actual expectations are intolerable.
~~~

Dropping the traditional roles isn't quite enough though.  If women who stay at home or work part time are taking on more than an even share of life's work, it doesn't become much better if suddenly a bunch of men are also taking on more than their fair share.  Yes, it would be great it we movd away from the gendered split of responsibilities and expectations. But we also need to start valuing that part of the work, and respecting it, and acknowledging it, and counting it when partners are looking at how to split responsibilites.

Now, I suspect that if men started filling these roles in significant numbers, some of that would happen automatically.  But I don't think it becomes a utopia when some men are being saddled with the unfair expectations that women have dealt with for centuries. 


~~~
I have a friend who is currently solo parenting.  Being surrounded by military families, this isn't especially uncommon.  Only in this case, her husband is not on planet earth.  I can not imagine the stress of raising young kids without help, without regular communication (though when DH and I started our military journey, email was just becoming available on ships and was far from reliable), and with the layer of extra fear that comes from work that's dangerous even to those used to military experiences.  Finding someone willing to sacrifice at that level--phew.  But we need those people if we want other people to be able to travel to space, or work on an oil rig, or be in the military.  Sure, some single people would do those things, but we need more people than just that pool.  And yet we minimize the role of the people--almost always women--who fill those roles.

Agreed - as a guy who at one point didn't really think the housework side of things was a big deal.  Now I find chores/housework to be much more difficult to perform that traditional 'guy' roles like fixing broken stuff around the house.  It's not that the actual tasks themselves (cleaning, cooking, getting groceries, doing laundry, watching the kid, etc.) are brutally hard to perform . . . but it's the fact that the task never really ends and that it's so easily undone that kind of grinds down on you sometimes.

Like there's nothing in the universe more disheartening that having just finished mopping the kitchen floor spotless, and then having your kid let the dog in from the back yard after some rain without wiping down her paws.

. This! The unpaid labor is huge. I think it will get better in that, younger men will learn that is the "cost" of living in a household and pick up after themselves, that it's a gender neutral expectation.

[Sugaree]

It's not just about people lying though.  I could see plenty of men thinking that they would happily take on the stay at home role, only to be slapped upside the head with the halibut of reality when they see what that actually means.  Because we as a society don't value or acknowledge this work, it's probably very easy to think it's folding some laundry, grocery shopping, scrubbing a toilet, and then eating bon bons in all the remaining free time.  Since we don't talk about accurate representations of what the life is actually like, and since even the people in the roles often don't fully realize the extent of the work they do ("Oh, I never thought about how I have to pay attention to what junior talks about in the months up to his birthday so I can know what gifts to get him, and then search to find those items, and how that's a time and energy suck." <--this, times 1000), someone could in good faith say they are eager to take on the role, only to find that the actual expectations are intolerable.
~~~

Dropping the traditional roles isn't quite enough though.  If women who stay at home or work part time are taking on more than an even share of life's work, it doesn't become much better if suddenly a bunch of men are also taking on more than their fair share.  Yes, it would be great it we movd away from the gendered split of responsibilities and expectations. But we also need to start valuing that part of the work, and respecting it, and acknowledging it, and counting it when partners are looking at how to split responsibilites.

Now, I suspect that if men started filling these roles in significant numbers, some of that would happen automatically.  But I don't think it becomes a utopia when some men are being saddled with the unfair expectations that women have dealt with for centuries. 


~~~
I have a friend who is currently solo parenting.  Being surrounded by military families, this isn't especially uncommon.  Only in this case, her husband is not on planet earth.  I can not imagine the stress of raising young kids without help, without regular communication (though when DH and I started our military journey, email was just becoming available on ships and was far from reliable), and with the layer of extra fear that comes from work that's dangerous even to those used to military experiences.  Finding someone willing to sacrifice at that level--phew.  But we need those people if we want other people to be able to travel to space, or work on an oil rig, or be in the military.  Sure, some single people would do those things, but we need more people than just that pool.  And yet we minimize the role of the people--almost always women--who fill those roles.

I'm currently living this, though I do have a lot of help from the grandparents who all thankfully live on the same block as I do.  I don't know what I'd do without them.  I will say that yes, it sucks being the only parent to a grieving child, I do feel like I have it easier than my friends who are divorced, or who are not on the same page as their spouse when it comes to things like school, religion, healthcare decisions, etc.  A good example of this was the last doctor's appointment for the kid.  They gave me the option of giving him the HPV vaccine.  Absolutely I want him to have it.  Meanwhile, one of his friend's mom is having to take dad back to family court because dad refuses to sign off on it because "boys don't need that." 

[LaineyAZ]

Another work/housework example:
Years ago I saw a TV news bit about a man who owned a car detailing business.  He had one customer who brought his car in every month to be detailed but was a complete slob.  No matter how well they detailed it the next time the car always came in completely trashed.  Scenario continues for months.
Finally the guy fired the customer.  When the interviewer asked why, the owner said it "was demoralizing to my guys." 

My immediate thought:  welcome to housework. 

[Captain FIRE]

Yes, housework is never ending. And some parts are invisible. Okay, everyone knows laundry needs to be done, but somehow sorting through used clothes with changing seasons to identify gaps, and shopping for those gaps is not a chore.

On this note, I'm trying to get my kids to start doing chores since we've been pretty delinquent on enforcing that. Do my part not to perpetuate gender housework inequalities further too. We can't start yesterday so today will need to suffice. Any thoughts where to start?

[GuitarStv]

On this note, I'm trying to get my kids to start doing chores since we've been pretty delinquent on enforcing that. Do my part not to perpetuate gender housework inequalities further too. We can't start yesterday so today will need to suffice. Any thoughts where to start?

How old are the kids?  Our son is ten now and we regularly get him to load/unload the dishwasher, pick up dog poop in the back yard, set the table, fold (sometimes, usually I fold everyone's stuff) and put away his laundry, clean toilets/sinks in the bathroom, take garbage/recycling/compost outside, pick up his toys, clean his room, make simple meals (he likes to fry eggs and chop veggies), etc.

Next year I'm going to get him to do the weed whacking (the tool has been a little too heavy for him previously) and maybe start walking the dog (she is still a little too strong for him right now).

[Captain FIRE]

7 & 4. Right now they are required to put away toys and put dishes away in dishwasher. They sometimes help put away laundry and unload the dishwasher, but that's *very* ad hoc if they are around and hasn't been required. In the past they've sometimes helped sweep, but that's not been effective - tends to devolve into misbehavior more often than not, or just redistribute the dirt. Also done a tiny bit of yard work (e.g. most recently helped haul away cut up wood we cut up after a branch fell during a storm). No pets.

We have also given my oldest fairly small sums for the infrequent chores - e.g. most common is $1 to help rake the yard, though I know we've done a time or two for other things.

[GuitarStv]

7 & 4. Right now they are required to put away toys and put dishes away in dishwasher. They sometimes help put away laundry and unload the dishwasher, but that's *very* ad hoc if they are around and hasn't been required. In the past they've sometimes helped sweep, but that's not been effective - tends to devolve into misbehavior more often than not, or just redistribute the dirt. Also done a tiny bit of yard work (e.g. most recently helped haul away cut up wood we cut up after a branch fell during a storm). No pets.

We have also given my oldest fairly small sums for the infrequent chores - e.g. most common is $1 to help rake the yard, though I know we've done a time or two for other things.

Yeah, we found that it was a PITA trying to get our son to do stuff before about seven.  Like he was game, and it would get done - just be aware that the chore was more on the parent supervising side to make sure it happens and that the kid isn't doing something bizarrely ass-backwards.  But by about 10 they're able to REALLY help, which is great.

[partgypsy]

I was way behind in enforcing stuff for my kids, so now playing catch up. What is working on my household is stuff the kids are expected to do: keep room picked up. Throw dirty clothes in hamper. Scoop kitty litter. Take out garbage. Those are all pretty automatic. Still working on either loading or unloading dishwasher, and when dishwasher full running it. Stuff like yardwork sometimes we all do together but more I throw them a few bucks to help. At least for me it works better to have a few nonnegotiable expectations. Than more but nebulous responsibilities. 

[LaineyAZ]

Reminds me of the comedian Leanne Morgan who had a funny bit about her daughter as a surly teenager.
Leanne said, "I can't blame her, she had a lot on her - she had to empty the dishwasher."

[Sibley]

It's not just about people lying though.  I could see plenty of men thinking that they would happily take on the stay at home role, only to be slapped upside the head with the halibut of reality when they see what that actually means.  Because we as a society don't value or acknowledge this work, it's probably very easy to think it's folding some laundry, grocery shopping, scrubbing a toilet, and then eating bon bons in all the remaining free time.  Since we don't talk about accurate representations of what the life is actually like, and since even the people in the roles often don't fully realize the extent of the work they do ("Oh, I never thought about how I have to pay attention to what junior talks about in the months up to his birthday so I can know what gifts to get him, and then search to find those items, and how that's a time and energy suck." <--this, times 1000), someone could in good faith say they are eager to take on the role, only to find that the actual expectations are intolerable.
~~~

Dropping the traditional roles isn't quite enough though.  If women who stay at home or work part time are taking on more than an even share of life's work, it doesn't become much better if suddenly a bunch of men are also taking on more than their fair share.  Yes, it would be great it we movd away from the gendered split of responsibilities and expectations. But we also need to start valuing that part of the work, and respecting it, and acknowledging it, and counting it when partners are looking at how to split responsibilites.

Now, I suspect that if men started filling these roles in significant numbers, some of that would happen automatically.  But I don't think it becomes a utopia when some men are being saddled with the unfair expectations that women have dealt with for centuries. 


~~~
I have a friend who is currently solo parenting.  Being surrounded by military families, this isn't especially uncommon.  Only in this case, her husband is not on planet earth.  I can not imagine the stress of raising young kids without help, without regular communication (though when DH and I started our military journey, email was just becoming available on ships and was far from reliable), and with the layer of extra fear that comes from work that's dangerous even to those used to military experiences.  Finding someone willing to sacrifice at that level--phew.  But we need those people if we want other people to be able to travel to space, or work on an oil rig, or be in the military.  Sure, some single people would do those things, but we need more people than just that pool.  And yet we minimize the role of the people--almost always women--who fill those roles.

Agreed - as a guy who at one point didn't really think the housework side of things was a big deal.  Now I find chores/housework to be much more difficult to perform that traditional 'guy' roles like fixing broken stuff around the house.  It's not that the actual tasks themselves (cleaning, cooking, getting groceries, doing laundry, watching the kid, etc.) are brutally hard to perform . . . but it's the fact that the task never really ends and that it's so easily undone that kind of grinds down on you sometimes.

Like there's nothing in the universe more disheartening that having just finished mopping the kitchen floor spotless, and then having your kid let the dog in from the back yard after some rain without wiping down her paws.

Exactly. No period of enjoyment of a task completed well.

Best example ever:
Empty litterbox.
Scrub litterbox.
Dry litterbox.
Refill litterbox.
WHILE you are pouring the clean litter in, the cat comes and uses the box.

[merula]

7 & 4. Right now they are required to put away toys and put dishes away in dishwasher. They sometimes help put away laundry and unload the dishwasher, but that's *very* ad hoc if they are around and hasn't been required. In the past they've sometimes helped sweep, but that's not been effective - tends to devolve into misbehavior more often than not, or just redistribute the dirt. Also done a tiny bit of yard work (e.g. most recently helped haul away cut up wood we cut up after a branch fell during a storm). No pets.

We have also given my oldest fairly small sums for the infrequent chores - e.g. most common is $1 to help rake the yard, though I know we've done a time or two for other things.

Yeah, we found that it was a PITA trying to get our son to do stuff before about seven.  Like he was game, and it would get done - just be aware that the chore was more on the parent supervising side to make sure it happens and that the kid isn't doing something bizarrely ass-backwards.  But by about 10 they're able to REALLY help, which is great.

Mine are now 12 and 10. The first chores they had were emptying the dishwasher, setting the table, folding laundry (started with square flat stuff like handkerchiefs and napkins, then moved on to their own clothes with a DIY cardboard folding board), and vacuuming.

Starting from age 5 or so, my youngest loooooved polishing wood furniture. Not a frequent chore, but not difficult and at least one kid found it fun.

They now also have to pick up their room enough to run the robot vacuum once a week, collect and take out the trash every other week, change their own sheets, help with yardwork and shoveling snow, and clean the bathroom occasionally. I want to start them on handwashing dishes soon.

[spartana]

Yes, housework is never ending. And some parts are invisible. Okay, everyone knows laundry needs to be done, but somehow sorting through used clothes with changing seasons to identify gaps, and shopping for those gaps is not a chore.

This^^ Its the main reason I hate housework or being a care taker of others  (and apparently many others feel the same) but enjoy other "one off" or occasional household tasks. The repetitiveness is just relentless.

I just wanted to get up, go to work, come home and not Have to think about the endless household tasks. That was so much easier! You know, like a 1950s husband.  Where prepared meals always magically appeared,  the house is always clean,  dishes and laundry done, beds made, food magically bought and the pantry fully stocked, clean well groomed children that had been taken to school, sports, doctors and dentists and played and read to already, where the bills have been paid and mailed off, and all the appointments for the family have been made, and all the birthday and holidays cards, gifts and plans have been made, etc. Where I come home and my slippers, pipe and martini are being served by a perfectly coiffed and stylishly dressed woman in high heels while I recline in my Lazy Boy to watch some sports. I think, despite being a straight female,  I wanna be a 50s husband ;-)! I can mow the lawn every two weeks and take out the trash and my domestic work is done!

[Kris]

Yes, housework is never ending. And some parts are invisible. Okay, everyone knows laundry needs to be done, but somehow sorting through used clothes with changing seasons to identify gaps, and shopping for those gaps is not a chore.

This^^ Its the main reason I hate housework or being a care taker of others  (and apparently many others feel the same) but enjoy other "one off" or occasional household tasks. The repetitiveness is just relentless.

I just wanted to get up, go to work, come home and not Have to think about the endless household tasks. That was so much easier! You know, like a 1950s husband.  Where prepared meals always magically appeared,  the house is always clean,  dishes and laundry done, beds made, food magically bought and the pantry fully stocked, clean well groomed children that had been taken to school, sports, doctors and dentists and played and read to already, where the bills have been paid and mailed off, and all the appointments for the family have been made, and all the birthday and holidays cards, gifts and plans have been made, etc. Where I come home and my slippers, pipe and martini are being served by a perfectly coiffed and stylishly dressed woman in high heels while I recline in my Lazy Boy to watch some sports. I think, despite being a straight female,  I wanna be a 50s husband ;-)! I can mow the lawn every two weeks and take out the trash and my domestic work is done!

Right? God, what bliss that would be…

[spartana]

Yes, housework is never ending. And some parts are invisible. Okay, everyone knows laundry needs to be done, but somehow sorting through used clothes with changing seasons to identify gaps, and shopping for those gaps is not a chore.

This^^ Its the main reason I hate housework or being a care taker of others  (and apparently many others feel the same) but enjoy other "one off" or occasional household tasks. The repetitiveness is just relentless.

I just wanted to get up, go to work, come home and not Have to think about the endless household tasks. That was so much easier! You know, like a 1950s husband.  Where prepared meals always magically appeared,  the house is always clean,  dishes and laundry done, beds made, food magically bought and the pantry fully stocked, clean well groomed children that had been taken to school, sports, doctors and dentists and played and read to already, where the bills have been paid and mailed off, and all the appointments for the family have been made, and all the birthday and holidays cards, gifts and plans have been made, etc. Where I come home and my slippers, pipe and martini are being served by a perfectly coiffed and stylishly dressed woman in high heels while I recline in my Lazy Boy to watch some sports. I think, despite being a straight female,  I wanna be a 50s husband ;-)! I can mow the lawn every two weeks and take out the trash and my domestic work is done!

Right? God, what bliss that would be…

Of course the very best part, for the woman at least, she gets to do it all over again the next day! And the next.... And the next... And the next.... LOL.

I'll tell you though that seeing my SAHM do that kind of stuff in the early 70s (before they divorced)  all day long every single day including weekend with 3 bratty kids all while rushing around and trying to look beautiful with the whole hair, make up and dress thing (off with the apron and on go the dress and heel!)  just before my Dad got home was enough to push me to want a different type of lifestyle even as early as 8.

[blue_green_sparks]

Ah, but the mower won't start, and the garage door fell off its track. The toilet runs all day and night and well it looks like something is jamming the In-Sink-Erator. There's a flood in the basement and I swear....I think I hear something running in-between the walls at night. Yes, it was pretty good for guys back in the day, granted, but it wasn't exactly as sweet as it may have appeared. Brazing copper pipes in a 100 deg attic or getting a good jolt of 115 VAC while trying to fix a mis-wired outlet just doesn't get much press.

[spartana]

Ah, but the mower won't start, and the garage door fell off its track. The toilet runs all day and night and well it looks like something is jamming the In-Sink-Erator. There's a flood in the basement and I swear....I think I hear something running in-between the walls at night. Yes, it was pretty good for guys back in the day, granted, but it wasn't exactly as sweet as it may have appeared. Brazing copper pipes in a 100 deg attic or getting a good jolt of 115 VAC while trying to fix a mis-wired outlet just doesn't get much press.

IDK a lot of that stuff was handled by repair people while the husband was probably at work. And not all men know how to do that kind of stuff. But that stuff, while it can be a lot, is often the one-off repair that doesn't ever have to be done again - and which is often fun and less repetitive drudge work. I like that kind of stuff and am a big DIY person but once done, it's done...usually.

 I've been a single homeowner of older houses that are in constant need of repair of something! Same with cars. It's all sort of endless too. But working on a house or car or even a yard is a different more satisfying feeling then domestic chores - for me at least. But I agree. Oftentimes in these discussions of a guy needing to take on a greater share of domestic chores people forget they may also do a larger percent of household chores then their partners realize because it's not traditional domestic chores. Many of those chores are just as time consuming (especially with a full time job and commute) and often hidden as some domestic work is.

[Kris]

Ah, but the mower won't start, and the garage door fell off its track. The toilet runs all day and night and well it looks like something is jamming the In-Sink-Erator. There's a flood in the basement and I swear....I think I hear something running in-between the walls at night. Yes, it was pretty good for guys back in the day, granted, but it wasn't exactly as sweet as it may have appeared. Brazing copper pipes in a 100 deg attic or getting a good jolt of 115 VAC while trying to fix a mis-wired outlet just doesn't get much press.

IDK a lot of that stuff was handled by repair people while the husband was probably at work. And not all men know how to do that kind of stuff. But that stuff, while it can be a lot, is often the one-off repair that doesn't ever have to be done again - and which is often fun and less repetitive drudge work. I like that kind of stuff and am a big DIY person but once done, it's done...usually.

Agreed. When that one-off stuff happens, I can make the choice to fix it myself or hire it out. And then it's done. (Not to mention that when hiring it out, it often becomes the woman's job to call the repair person...)

[sonofsven]

Ah, but the mower won't start, and the garage door fell off its track. The toilet runs all day and night and well it looks like something is jamming the In-Sink-Erator. There's a flood in the basement and I swear....I think I hear something running in-between the walls at night. Yes, it was pretty good for guys back in the day, granted, but it wasn't exactly as sweet as it may have appeared. Brazing copper pipes in a 100 deg attic or getting a good jolt of 115 VAC while trying to fix a mis-wired outlet just doesn't get much press.

IDK a lot of that stuff was handled by repair people while the husband was probably at work. And not all men know how to do that kind of stuff. But that stuff, while it can be a lot, is often the one-off repair that doesn't ever have to be done again - and which is often fun and less repetitive drudge work. I like that kind of stuff and am a big DIY person but once done, it's done...usually.

Agreed. When that one-off stuff happens, I can make the choice to fix it myself or hire it out. And then it's done. (Not to mention that when hiring it out, it often becomes the woman's job to call the repair person...)

Yes, I was that hired repair guy, and it was almost always the wife and I that were communicating and collaborating on the repairs and remodels.
Very often, the husband would display a low level of animosity. It was as if they felt their manhood was being questioned by hiring me to fix stuff on their house.
Meanwhile, they're making big bucks working for Nike or whatever, working a lot, flying to conferences, trying to do "guy stuff" occasionally; they really had no time to do this work, but culturally maybe, they thought they should. I got a lot of mileage out of the "when a man says he'll get something done you don't need to remind him every six months!" joke.

Also, much of the work I ran across that was done by homeowners, both men and women, was sub-standard. Of course, if someone did know how to do good work then they probably wouldn't call me in the first place.
It was usually engineers that could do quality work, but they went about in such a crazy (to me, who grew up in the trades) way it was funny.

[blue_green_sparks]

Back in the 60's and 70's, on our blue-collar street nobody hired anybody to fix stuff. However, the neighbors were also friends, and the men would get together and help each other out while knocking back a "few cold ones". The young males in the family now don't do much home or car repair themselves.

[GuitarStv]

Ah, but the mower won't start, and the garage door fell off its track. The toilet runs all day and night and well it looks like something is jamming the In-Sink-Erator. There's a flood in the basement and I swear....I think I hear something running in-between the walls at night. Yes, it was pretty good for guys back in the day, granted, but it wasn't exactly as sweet as it may have appeared. Brazing copper pipes in a 100 deg attic or getting a good jolt of 115 VAC while trying to fix a mis-wired outlet just doesn't get much press.

IDK a lot of that stuff was handled by repair people while the husband was probably at work. And not all men know how to do that kind of stuff. But that stuff, while it can be a lot, is often the one-off repair that doesn't ever have to be done again - and which is often fun and less repetitive drudge work. I like that kind of stuff and am a big DIY person but once done, it's done...usually.

Agreed. When that one-off stuff happens, I can make the choice to fix it myself or hire it out. And then it's done. (Not to mention that when hiring it out, it often becomes the woman's job to call the repair person...)

Yes, I was that hired repair guy, and it was almost always the wife and I that were communicating and collaborating on the repairs and remodels.
Very often, the husband would display a low level of animosity. It was as if they felt their manhood was being questioned by hiring me to fix stuff on their house.
Meanwhile, they're making big bucks working for Nike or whatever, working a lot, flying to conferences, trying to do "guy stuff" occasionally; they really had no time to do this work, but culturally maybe, they thought they should. I got a lot of mileage out of the "when a man says he'll get something done you don't need to remind him every six months!" joke.

Also, much of the work I ran across that was done by homeowners, both men and women, was sub-standard. Of course, if someone did know how to do good work then they probably wouldn't call me in the first place.
It was usually engineers that could do quality work, but they went about in such a crazy (to me, who grew up in the trades) way it was funny.

You guys must have come from rich families.  My dad fixed everything on his own, regardless of size of job or whether or not he knew how.  And as soon as I was eight I helped him fix everything.  Torture at the time, but I think it really helped me be much handier long term.

[dividendman]

Yes, housework is never ending. And some parts are invisible. Okay, everyone knows laundry needs to be done, but somehow sorting through used clothes with changing seasons to identify gaps, and shopping for those gaps is not a chore.

This^^ Its the main reason I hate housework or being a care taker of others  (and apparently many others feel the same) but enjoy other "one off" or occasional household tasks. The repetitiveness is just relentless.

I just wanted to get up, go to work, come home and not Have to think about the endless household tasks. That was so much easier! You know, like a 1950s husband.  Where prepared meals always magically appeared,  the house is always clean,  dishes and laundry done, beds made, food magically bought and the pantry fully stocked, clean well groomed children that had been taken to school, sports, doctors and dentists and played and read to already, where the bills have been paid and mailed off, and all the appointments for the family have been made, and all the birthday and holidays cards, gifts and plans have been made, etc. Where I come home and my slippers, pipe and martini are being served by a perfectly coiffed and stylishly dressed woman in high heels while I recline in my Lazy Boy to watch some sports. I think, despite being a straight female,  I wanna be a 50s husband ;-)! I can mow the lawn every two weeks and take out the trash and my domestic work is done!

Right? God, what bliss that would be…

Yes, being a man with the a family in the 50s was pure bliss! Of course you'd have to live through WW2 first and shake off any remaining physical and psychological damage, but that's easy, unlike the hell of the household chores.

[sonofsven]

Ah, but the mower won't start, and the garage door fell off its track. The toilet runs all day and night and well it looks like something is jamming the In-Sink-Erator. There's a flood in the basement and I swear....I think I hear something running in-between the walls at night. Yes, it was pretty good for guys back in the day, granted, but it wasn't exactly as sweet as it may have appeared. Brazing copper pipes in a 100 deg attic or getting a good jolt of 115 VAC while trying to fix a mis-wired outlet just doesn't get much press.

IDK a lot of that stuff was handled by repair people while the husband was probably at work. And not all men know how to do that kind of stuff. But that stuff, while it can be a lot, is often the one-off repair that doesn't ever have to be done again - and which is often fun and less repetitive drudge work. I like that kind of stuff and am a big DIY person but once done, it's done...usually.

Agreed. When that one-off stuff happens, I can make the choice to fix it myself or hire it out. And then it's done. (Not to mention that when hiring it out, it often becomes the woman's job to call the repair person...)

Yes, I was that hired repair guy, and it was almost always the wife and I that were communicating and collaborating on the repairs and remodels.
Very often, the husband would display a low level of animosity. It was as if they felt their manhood was being questioned by hiring me to fix stuff on their house.
Meanwhile, they're making big bucks working for Nike or whatever, working a lot, flying to conferences, trying to do "guy stuff" occasionally; they really had no time to do this work, but culturally maybe, they thought they should. I got a lot of mileage out of the "when a man says he'll get something done you don't need to remind him every six months!" joke.

Also, much of the work I ran across that was done by homeowners, both men and women, was sub-standard. Of course, if someone did know how to do good work then they probably wouldn't call me in the first place.
It was usually engineers that could do quality work, but they went about in such a crazy (to me, who grew up in the trades) way it was funny.

You guys must have come from rich families.  My dad fixed everything on his own, regardless of size of job or whether or not he knew how.  And as soon as I was eight I helped him fix everything.  Torture at the time, but I think it really helped me be much handier long term.

We were middle class, my dad was an engineer, but not a hands on one. He was a bit of a math genius. He could do sine, cosine, tangent calculations in his head. He would attempt home repairs but sucked at them. His dad was a builder, though. My grandpa died when I was pretty young, but I have memories of him working on our house. My dad was a hard worker, just not a skilled worker. We cut firewood every weekend which I also hated for years, but now I love it. Twice I watched him throw chunks of firewood through the back window of the pickup!
I took over home repairs around age 14, which is also when I started working for a local builder.
I am definitely not a math genius!
The first time I had to build a complicated roof I tried to follow this math book for builders; I threw it out and built it with a pencil, tape measure, string line, and framing square, basically.
That, and a construction calculator (in lieu of rafter tables) is all you really need. And a level to check your work.

[reeshau]

Back in the 60's and 70's, on our blue-collar street nobody hired anybody to fix stuff. However, the neighbors were also friends, and the men would get together and help each other out while knocking back a "few cold ones". The young males in the family now don't do much home or car repair themselves.

Pretty much every garage among my stepdad's friends got built this way.  Even larger projects, too.

[Tyson]

Just don't cohabitate and then you never have to split the chores with anyone. 

I quite like living alone.

[nereo]

Back in the 60's and 70's, on our blue-collar street nobody hired anybody to fix stuff. However, the neighbors were also friends, and the men would get together and help each other out while knocking back a "few cold ones". The young males in the family now don't do much home or car repair themselves.

Pretty much every garage among my stepdad's friends got built this way.  Even larger projects, too.

A lot of that probably contributed to the shoddy work that sonofsven described fixing upthread.
To be fair it’s not all like that and plenty of trade work is substandard too (when it’s buried behind drywall/sheathing and won’t be discovered for decades there’s a lot of corners cut).

I’ve renovated 3 homes to various degrees and on each the majority of my time has been to correct stuff that was “good enough” for whoever did the work last but didn’t care much about the longevity or future owner.

[SunnyDays]

Best example ever:
Empty litterbox.
Scrub litter box
Dry litterbox.
Refill litterbox.
WHILE you are pouring the clean litter in, the cat comes and uses the box.
[/quote]

One of my cats does this all the time.  I swear he holds it until the box is clean.  I guess I can’t blame him.  I don’t like using dirty bathrooms either.

[RetiredAt63]

Back in the 60's and 70's, on our blue-collar street nobody hired anybody to fix stuff. However, the neighbors were also friends, and the men would get together and help each other out while knocking back a "few cold ones". The young males in the family now don't do much home or car repair themselves.

Pretty much every garage among my stepdad's friends got built this way.  Even larger projects, too.

A lot of that probably contributed to the shoddy work that sonofsven described fixing upthread.
To be fair it’s not all like that and plenty of trade work is substandard too (when it’s buried behind drywall/sheathing and won’t be discovered for decades there’s a lot of corners cut).

I’ve renovated 3 homes to various degrees and on each the majority of my time has been to correct stuff that was “good enough” for whoever did the work last but didn’t care much about the longevity or future owner.

You would laugh to hear my son in law swearing at the previous owner of their house.  Lots of corners were cut.   ;-)

[wenchsenior]

Best example ever:
Empty litterbox.
Scrub litter box
Dry litterbox.
Refill litterbox.
WHILE you are pouring the clean litter in, the cat comes and uses the box.

One of my cats does this all the time.  I swear he holds it until the box is clean.  I guess I can’t blame him.  I don’t like using dirty bathrooms either.
[/quote]

This is my life. I love my cats but my god... we work to buy food that they turn into crap, then we scoop the crap and go back to work.

[Captain FIRE]

Yes, housework is never ending. And some parts are invisible. Okay, everyone knows laundry needs to be done, but somehow sorting through used clothes with changing seasons to identify gaps, and shopping for those gaps is not a chore.

This^^ Its the main reason I hate housework or being a care taker of others  (and apparently many others feel the same) but enjoy other "one off" or occasional household tasks. The repetitiveness is just relentless.

I just wanted to get up, go to work, come home and not Have to think about the endless household tasks. That was so much easier! You know, like a 1950s husband.  Where prepared meals always magically appeared,  the house is always clean,  dishes and laundry done, beds made, food magically bought and the pantry fully stocked, clean well groomed children that had been taken to school, sports, doctors and dentists and played and read to already, where the bills have been paid and mailed off, and all the appointments for the family have been made, and all the birthday and holidays cards, gifts and plans have been made, etc. Where I come home and my slippers, pipe and martini are being served by a perfectly coiffed and stylishly dressed woman in high heels while I recline in my Lazy Boy to watch some sports. I think, despite being a straight female,  I wanna be a 50s husband ;-)! I can mow the lawn every two weeks and take out the trash and my domestic work is done!

Right? God, what bliss that would be…

I and a few of my (heterosexual female) friends may have said before that we want wives.

[Villanelle]

My grandma had a sign hanging in her kitchen that said, "A man works from sun to sun, but a woman's work is never done."  I distinctly recall thinking it was kind of unfair to Grandpa, because I knew he worked really hard, and the insinuation that she worked harder didn't seem nice. (I was probably 7 at the time.) 

Now, I get it. I have a DH who thankfully doesn't expect the house to be pristine and the dinner on the table, and who does a decent portion of the house stuff, even though he works hard and very long hours. And he acknowledges what I do (and the fact that my career died on the altar of his, and that that was a real sacrifice for me), and expresses gratitude.  But it's still me who does the majority of the invisible tasks and I think he often has little idea how much time gets sucked up by remembering to call the groomer to book the dogs so that they aren't miserable in 2 weeks when their fur is way too long for summer and they can't get appointments for another 3 weeks. And the zillion other tasks like that that  come up every week.   

[spartana]

Just don't cohabitate and then you never have to split the chores with anyone. 

I quite like living alone.

but then you have to do them all yourself. Which, as THAT person, meant even more work on top of my job. I think a big part of me FIREing not to long after separating/divorcing was that I was so overwhelmed with the multitude of chores - including rehabbing an old beater house solo, caring for a hoarde of pets solo,  lawn care and house and car repairs solo etc. All while trying to have fun and sleep. We had always did that stuff together - as well as the domestic chores - that it made my life much easier. If I didn't have a million critters I would have sold and lived in a studio apt. Now that would make chores easier!

[spartana]

Yes, housework is never ending. And some parts are invisible. Okay, everyone knows laundry needs to be done, but somehow sorting through used clothes with changing seasons to identify gaps, and shopping for those gaps is not a chore.

This^^ Its the main reason I hate housework or being a care taker of others  (and apparently many others feel the same) but enjoy other "one off" or occasional household tasks. The repetitiveness is just relentless.

I just wanted to get up, go to work, come home and not Have to think about the endless household tasks. That was so much easier! You know, like a 1950s husband.  Where prepared meals always magically appeared,  the house is always clean,  dishes and laundry done, beds made, food magically bought and the pantry fully stocked, clean well groomed children that had been taken to school, sports, doctors and dentists and played and read to already, where the bills have been paid and mailed off, and all the appointments for the family have been made, and all the birthday and holidays cards, gifts and plans have been made, etc. Where I come home and my slippers, pipe and martini are being served by a perfectly coiffed and stylishly dressed woman in high heels while I recline in my Lazy Boy to watch some sports. I think, despite being a straight female,  I wanna be a 50s husband ;-)! I can mow the lawn every two weeks and take out the trash and my domestic work is done!

Right? God, what bliss that would be…

Yes, being a man with the a family in the 50s was pure bliss! Of course you'd have to live through WW2 first and shake off any remaining physical and psychological damage, but that's easy, unlike the hell of the household chores.

IDK my Dad was a young boy/teen in the 50s (and yes he had Elvis hair lol) in the US so probably not too tramatic. But he was career military and a Vietnam Vet in the 60s and 70s so I imagine that was more directly dramatic. But yeah if you were a young guy in the 1940s who was in WWII I imagine you'd be pretty tramtized. My mom (about 8 years older then my dad) was a young girl/teen living in a refugee camp in post WWII Germany and she had it pretty rough.

[spartana]

Ah, but the mower won't start, and the garage door fell off its track. The toilet runs all day and night and well it looks like something is jamming the In-Sink-Erator. There's a flood in the basement and I swear....I think I hear something running in-between the walls at night. Yes, it was pretty good for guys back in the day, granted, but it wasn't exactly as sweet as it may have appeared. Brazing copper pipes in a 100 deg attic or getting a good jolt of 115 VAC while trying to fix a mis-wired outlet just doesn't get much press.

IDK a lot of that stuff was handled by repair people while the husband was probably at work. And not all men know how to do that kind of stuff. But that stuff, while it can be a lot, is often the one-off repair that doesn't ever have to be done again - and which is often fun and less repetitive drudge work. I like that kind of stuff and am a big DIY person but once done, it's done...usually.

Agreed. When that one-off stuff happens, I can make the choice to fix it myself or hire it out. And then it's done. (Not to mention that when hiring it out, it often becomes the woman's job to call the repair person...)

Yes, I was that hired repair guy, and it was almost always the wife and I that were communicating and collaborating on the repairs and remodels.
Very often, the husband would display a low level of animosity. It was as if they felt their manhood was being questioned by hiring me to fix stuff on their house.
Meanwhile, they're making big bucks working for Nike or whatever, working a lot, flying to conferences, trying to do "guy stuff" occasionally; they really had no time to do this work, but culturally maybe, they thought they should. I got a lot of mileage out of the "when a man says he'll get something done you don't need to remind him every six months!" joke.

Also, much of the work I ran across that was done by homeowners, both men and women, was sub-standard. Of course, if someone did know how to do good work then they probably wouldn't call me in the first place.
It was usually engineers that could do quality work, but they went about in such a crazy (to me, who grew up in the trades) way it was funny.

You guys must have come from rich families.  My dad fixed everything on his own, regardless of size of job or whether or not he knew how.  And as soon as I was eight I helped him fix everything.  Torture at the time, but I think it really helped me be much handier long term.

Helps when you have a Dad around. Very poor single parent (mom) household most of my teen years and I did all that stuff. It was a PITA sometimes but it was a way I could help out my mom who was a low income earner working a couple of jobs and couldn't afford to get thing done. For example I worked on her car (at 16 I replaced the brakes on her car for a tiny amount of money...and she lived to tell about it lol), did the yard work and home maintenance chores plus watch my younger sister. My friends had Dads to do that stuff and SAHMs. But they were skills I learned that served me well in life. But yeah P.I.T.A!!

[Tyson]

Just don't cohabitate and then you never have to split the chores with anyone. 

I quite like living alone.

but then you have to do them all yourself. Which, as THAT person, meant even more work on top of my job. I think a big part of me FIREing not to long after separating/divorcing was that I was so overwhelmed with the multitude of chores - including rehabbing an old beater house solo, caring for a hoarde of pets solo,  lawn care and house and car repairs solo etc. All while trying to have fun and sleep. We had always did that stuff together - as well as the domestic chores - that it made my life much easier. If I didn't have a million critters I would have sold and lived in a studio apt. Now that would make chores easier!

You are right, you end up doing all the chores yourself.  But for me it was somehow better because I wasn't 'cleaning up her mess'. 

Now that I'm alone, one thing I do that really helps manage everything is to make cleanup part of the activity.  It's like little closed loops of cleaning.  For example, I clean up as I make my coffee/breakfast in the morning.  It takes a little longer but the payoff is that I don't have a messy sink to deal with later. 

Or another example, getting up in the morning, I just make the bed as part of my 'getting dressed' activity. 

Doing these small loops of tidiness saves things from piling up over the course of the day.  And that REALLY helps me to not feel overwhelmed in the evenings.

[jeninco]

7 & 4. Right now they are required to put away toys and put dishes away in dishwasher. They sometimes help put away laundry and unload the dishwasher, but that's *very* ad hoc if they are around and hasn't been required. In the past they've sometimes helped sweep, but that's not been effective - tends to devolve into misbehavior more often than not, or just redistribute the dirt. Also done a tiny bit of yard work (e.g. most recently helped haul away cut up wood we cut up after a branch fell during a storm). No pets.

We have also given my oldest fairly small sums for the infrequent chores - e.g. most common is $1 to help rake the yard, though I know we've done a time or two for other things.

Yeah, we found that it was a PITA trying to get our son to do stuff before about seven.  Like he was game, and it would get done - just be aware that the chore was more on the parent supervising side to make sure it happens and that the kid isn't doing something bizarrely ass-backwards.  But by about 10 they're able to REALLY help, which is great.

Mine are now 12 and 10. The first chores they had were emptying the dishwasher, setting the table, folding laundry (started with square flat stuff like handkerchiefs and napkins, then moved on to their own clothes with a DIY cardboard folding board), and vacuuming.

Starting from age 5 or so, my youngest loooooved polishing wood furniture. Not a frequent chore, but not difficult and at least one kid found it fun.

They now also have to pick up their room enough to run the robot vacuum once a week, collect and take out the trash every other week, change their own sheets, help with yardwork and shoveling snow, and clean the bathroom occasionally. I want to start them on handwashing dishes soon.

We started early: I've mentioned this elsewhere on these boards, but I sat in pee three or four times in a week, then pointed out that I was about the only person in the house who couldn't really leave puddles on the seat/floor/whatever. I think they were around 5 and 7, and DH started teaching them how to clean a bathroom. Every saturday morning, I'd go do the grocery shopping, DH would sweep the wood floors, one kid vacuumed the carpets and the other one did the bathrooms. Took a couple of months to get over the whining and get acceptable results, and then we were off and running.

The question to think about is this: what skills do you want them to possess before they move away for college? Ours, in addition to general cleaning outlined above, helped wash up after meals, helped with some yard work, occasionally helped with laundry (I know this is a thing people argue about, but with four of us we typically had one hot, one medium, and one cold load per week, so they all got done together). We made sure they could cook at least basic healthy meals, and were able to do other general house maintenance work, but basically once we all spent an hour or so one weekend morning cleaning up our shared living spaces (and planning meals, and getting food) the house was in acceptable shape for the week.

[spartana]

Just don't cohabitate and then you never have to split the chores with anyone. 

I quite like living alone.

but then you have to do them all yourself. Which, as THAT person, meant even more work on top of my job. I think a big part of me FIREing not to long after separating/divorcing was that I was so overwhelmed with the multitude of chores - including rehabbing an old beater house solo, caring for a hoarde of pets solo,  lawn care and house and car repairs solo etc. All while trying to have fun and sleep. We had always did that stuff together - as well as the domestic chores - that it made my life much easier. If I didn't have a million critters I would have sold and lived in a studio apt. Now that would make chores easier!

You are right, you end up doing all the chores yourself.  But for me it was somehow better because I wasn't 'cleaning up her mess'. 

Now that I'm alone, one thing I do that really helps manage everything is to make cleanup part of the activity.  It's like little closed loops of cleaning.  For example, I clean up as I make my coffee/breakfast in the morning.  It takes a little longer but the payoff is that I don't have a messy sink to deal with later. 

Or another example, getting up in the morning, I just make the bed as part of my 'getting dressed' activity. 

Doing these small loops of tidiness saves things from piling up over the course of the day.  And that REALLY helps me to not feel overwhelmed in the evenings.

I agree! It is ALOT easier dealing with just your own things then having to deal with other people's stuff/messes too. I've been fortunate not to be in relationships with messy people and so it wasn't really an issue. And of course not having kids and having to clean up THEIR messes is huge! Those adorable little piglets ;-).

But, as a single homeowner for many year,  I did find it helpful when I was sharing a home with a partner to have another person around to share some of those tasks. And was lucky (or maybe just picky) to have partners who did many things to help - including cleaning up after themselves (and often me). TBH they (ex-DH and current BF) are way better at keeping up with chores then I am even though I'm super neat. But I can be a bit lazy about chores.

[reeshau]

The question to think about is this: what skills do you want them to possess before they move away for college? Ours, in addition to general cleaning outlined above, helped wash up after meals, helped with some yard work, occasionally helped with laundry (I know this is a thing people argue about, but with four of us we typically had one hot, one medium, and one cold load per week, so they all got done together). We made sure they could cook at least basic healthy meals, and were able to do other general house maintenance work, but basically once we all spent an hour or so one weekend morning cleaning up our shared living spaces (and planning meals, and getting food) the house was in acceptable shape for the week.

+1

My Mom raised four boys who could do laundry and cook, among other things.  Her method on food was pretty sly: ahe said we could cook or do dishes, she didn't care.  We all chose the same thing.

We tell DS our job as parents is to get him ready to be an adult, so we add things for him to do when we see he can handle it, on the way to being able to do it all.  (Often explained in response to cries of "That's not fair!" when a new responsibility shows up.

[Ron Scott]

Maybe the best thing people who feel overburdened with household chores can do is to hire a maid.

Maids can’t do it all because they’re not there daily and we’ve still got the kids, the dishes and such but, for those who can afford it, once a week for a few loads of laundry, total house cleaning, and maybe make a couple dinners to refrigerate? It’s better than a poke in the eye with a sharp stick…

Even if you’re saving-like-crazy for FIRE you can honestly justify it by achieving the 2 primary FIRE goals of eliminating undesirable work and giving yourself more free time. And of course, a maid can really take a good amount of marriage stress off the table when there’s simply no need to point fingers (for some things at least).

Not to mention, maids really do need the work and you’d be helping them and their families A LOT.

Just a thought.