Are women done with men?

[getsorted]

I 1000% agree with you that communication and clear expectations is crucial, but you're presupposing that people come to relationships with those skills.

I can tell you that they DO NOT.

I've spoken to couples who have been married for decades who it's like pulling teeth to even get them to be aware of their own needs, much less be able to express them clearly.

Exactly. People can only be as honest with you as they can be with themselves. Many, if not most people have hidden objectives for a relationship that they absolutely cannot admit to themselves, much less ask for. When you're living with someone's unexpressed expectations, you can end up always feeling like you're failing, but never knowing why, and trying to get clarity from your partner is fruitless because they can't put these things into words for themselves, much less you.

In therapy, this often comes out as, "I know I shouldn't feel this way, but it's almost like..." and then you watch someone say something they've never said before, while they realize its truth and depth all at once.

I've been reading for many weeks about exactly this in the world of ethical non monogamy, where it's not actually ethical if there's coercive manipulation being used to push other people's boundaries into accepting it.

Coercion in relationships of all types is so normalized where I live that it's hard to single out non-monogamous people for this, although I think they have more of a tendency to believe that it can't possibly be coercive, because they talk about it and give options, even if the options are loaded with condescension or carry a subtext of "well I guess you don't really love me if you won't agree to this."

My experience of dating people who are non-monogamous is that they tend to be firmly stuck in codependency patterns, and are trying to resolve that by creating a more diversified portfolio of codependence. One person actually showed me a spreadsheet of all their partners and the "needs" they met, or roles they had in their life. Everything from "meets family" to "kink exploration." There was a whole section titled "emotional intimacy." Reader, it was blank; no one checking those boxes. I asked about it and they said, "Yeah, that's the part of relationships I don't really want to get into with anybody." My mind still bonks when I think about that. Imagine walling off emotional intimacy as simply a service you don't provide.

[Ron Scott]

My experience of dating people who are non-monogamous is that they tend to be firmly stuck in codependency patterns, and are trying to resolve that by creating a more diversified portfolio of codependence. One person actually showed me a spreadsheet of all their partners and the "needs" they met, or roles they had in their life. Everything from "meets family" to "kink exploration." There was a whole section titled "emotional intimacy." Reader, it was blank; no one checking those boxes. I asked about it and they said, "Yeah, that's the part of relationships I don't really want to get into with anybody." My mind still bonks when I think about that. Imagine walling off emotional intimacy as simply a service you don't provide.

Sterile, but considered safe. Sad.

[partgypsy]

"creating a more diversified portfolio of codependence" lmao

[merula]

Coercion in relationships of all types is so normalized where I live that it's hard to single out non-monogamous people for this, although I think they have more of a tendency to believe that it can't possibly be coercive, because they talk about it and give options, even if the options are loaded with condescension or carry a subtext of "well I guess you don't really love me if you won't agree to this."

Are the poly people feigning monogamy before springing their "options" on the monogamists, or are the monogamists assuming that people who identify as poly on dating apps will make a monogamous commitment? I would think that it would be pretty easy to sort out these two groups from each other.

My experience of dating people who are non-monogamous is that they tend to be firmly stuck in codependency patterns, and are trying to resolve that by creating a more diversified portfolio of codependence. One person actually showed me a spreadsheet of all their partners and the "needs" they met, or roles they had in their life. Everything from "meets family" to "kink exploration." There was a whole section titled "emotional intimacy." Reader, it was blank; no one checking those boxes. I asked about it and they said, "Yeah, that's the part of relationships I don't really want to get into with anybody." My mind still bonks when I think about that. Imagine walling off emotional intimacy as simply a service you don't provide.

I'm a spreadsheet person. I'm not going to judge this person for a relationship spreadsheet at all. I'm baffled as to why they even created an "emotional intimacy" section if it wasn't a priority.

Could it be that they recognize it as a thing one should get from their intimate relationships but aren't there yet? Or is there somehow a poly scheduling/relationship management spreadsheet template available for download?!

[getsorted]

Are the poly people feigning monogamy before springing their "options" on the monogamists, or are the monogamists assuming that people who identify as poly on dating apps will make a monogamous commitment? I would think that it would be pretty easy to sort out these two groups from each other.

I want to reiterate that I am not generalizing the entire world of polyamory here, only my personal experience with actual people I've dated or who are close friends.

I see a large number of profiles that check both the "monogamy" and "nonmonogamy" check-boxes, and several that say things like "open to poly but also open to monogamy if it makes sense." One person I'm thinking of did not mention either in his profile, but after chatting for about a week, brought up that he was "considering" polyamory. He was then pretty aggressive about challenging my boundary when I said, "Oh, okay, well, I'm not interested in starting a polyamorous relationship," asked "why not?" and then kinda launched into a sales pitch. I think what he was trying to say was that he was open to a monogamous relationship, after some period of non-monogamy (which is sort of what dating is? I mean most people don't commit on date 1). I almost got the feeling, after several months of knowing (and not dating) this person, that what he wanted was to date monogamous women, who would put their all into the relationship hoping that it would eventually end up where they wanted it to, while he casually dated and made no meaningful investment in the relationship.

It's not unlike putting "short term, open to long" under "what are you looking for in a relationship?" It's almost like saying, "I'm not going to make any effort to build a long-term partnership, but I will allow you to put in as much effort as you would like to convince me!" I don't think great long-term relationships are something that just happen to people by accident; I think they are built. And I for one do not intend to put the effort into building one solo. 

I'm a spreadsheet person. I'm not going to judge this person for a relationship spreadsheet at all. I'm baffled as to why they even created an "emotional intimacy" section if it wasn't a priority.

Could it be that they recognize it as a thing one should get from their intimate relationships but aren't there yet? Or is there somehow a poly scheduling/relationship management spreadsheet template available for download?!

I think he got it from someone else and it just came with that category. But I feel very comfortable with my personal value judgement that the person who said he did not want any emotional intimacy did in fact want lots of it-- he wanted support, responsiveness, and validation. He just did not want to give that to anyone else. And again, this is something anyone can do, whether they are polyamorous or monogamous.

[Raenia]

Just wanted to chime in with a "not all non-monogamy..."

DH and I have a wonderful, happy, supportive, and emotionally intimate relationship, we just view sex as a fun recreational activity that isn't exclusive to practice with one's life partner. In the same way that we're allowed to see a movie or go hiking with a close friend, without the spouses present. We're not joined at the hip, we can have hobbies and friends we don't share, and some of those friends like to have sex.

We also had some good friends who were swingers for many years, and they have one of the strongest marriages I know.

Lack of commitment and equal effort are certainly not exclusive to polyamorous relationships, too. The trick, as always, is to have a strong relationship in other ways. You can't use polyamory to paper over an unwillingness to build strong bonds, just like you can't use mental health or other types of excuses.

[getsorted]

You can't use polyamory to paper over an unwillingness to build strong bonds

I absolutely agree, but if my experience is any indication, lots of people (especially dudes?) are sure willing to try! See also: trying to breathe life into a partnership that is patently no longer viable.

I think I have used abundant disclaimers here and I really hope this isn't going to be a "not-all" pile-on. Unfortunately, all relationship styles are inhabited by human beings, a lot of whom are dumb and many of whom are in deep denial about what they are doing.

Try to imagine the depths of ick of being on a coffee date with a man who assured me his open relationship was joyfully consented to by all parties, and then proceeded to (unprompted) disclose the intimate details of his partner's personal sexual trauma and resultant dysfunction, while she texted him throughout the date ("because of her anxiety," he said). Everything about that felt coercive.

[Metalcat]

You can't use polyamory to paper over an unwillingness to build strong bonds

I absolutely agree, but if my experience is any indication, lots of people (especially dudes?) are sure willing to try! See also: trying to breathe life into a partnership that is patently no longer viable.

I think I have used abundant disclaimers here and I really hope this isn't going to be a "not-all" pile-on. Unfortunately, all relationship styles are inhabited by human beings, a lot of whom are dumb and many of whom are in deep denial about what they are doing.

Try to imagine the depths of ick of being on a coffee date with a man who assured me his open relationship was joyfully consented to by all parties, and then proceeded to (unprompted) disclose the intimate details of his partner's personal sexual trauma and resultant dysfunction, while she texted him throughout the date ("because of her anxiety," he said). Everything about that felt coercive.

People who aren't in the dating world right now really just can't grasp how fucked up it often is.

Seriously, the only vicarious trauma I have as a therapist is hearing about contemporary dating fuckery. I can hear stories that are so horrifying that they would peel paint off the walls and be fine, but when I hear the just fucking twisted interpersonal dynamics that have become "normal" in the dating world, my skin feels like it's covered in bugs.

Dating now is a lot like politics now. The veneer of rules and decorum and expectations have been stripped away, and naked, unabashed toxicity abound with people expertly equipped with narratives that bat away personal accountability. ETA, that's not to say that those former rules weren't toxic as fuck in their own right, just that things are VERY different in terms of trying to navigate.

It's fucking wild.

[Raenia]

You can't use polyamory to paper over an unwillingness to build strong bonds

I absolutely agree, but if my experience is any indication, lots of people (especially dudes?) are sure willing to try! See also: trying to breathe life into a partnership that is patently no longer viable.

I think I have used abundant disclaimers here and I really hope this isn't going to be a "not-all" pile-on. Unfortunately, all relationship styles are inhabited by human beings, a lot of whom are dumb and many of whom are in deep denial about what they are doing.

Try to imagine the depths of ick of being on a coffee date with a man who assured me his open relationship was joyfully consented to by all parties, and then proceeded to (unprompted) disclose the intimate details of his partner's personal sexual trauma and resultant dysfunction, while she texted him throughout the date ("because of her anxiety," he said). Everything about that felt coercive.

You did use plenty of disclaimers, but it did feel like you maybe haven't met people who are genuinely happily non-monogamous, so I wanted to chime in.

Unfortunately, I suspect you're likely to find more of the bad ones in the active dating pool, while the good ones are more likely already in relationships. You're not going to advertise as "open to poly or mono" if you already have a stable primary partner at home.

To your last paragraph, I've definitely had similar experiences, not necessarily all in a dating context. Having a friend over for a movie night and constantly being interrupted by texts from SO passive-aggressively nagging friend for leaving them alone all evening, oversharing about other people's diagnoses in all sorts of inappropriate contexts, etc.

[GuitarStv]

People who aren't in the dating world right now really just can't grasp how fucked up it often is.

Seriously, the only vicarious trauma I have as a therapist is hearing about contemporary dating fuckery. I can hear stories that are so horrifying that they would peel paint off the walls and be fine, but when I hear the just fucking twisted interpersonal dynamics that have become "normal" in the dating world, my skin feels like it's covered in bugs.

Dating now is a lot like politics now. The veneer of rules and decorum and expectations have been stripped away, and naked, unabashed toxicity abound with people expertly equipped with narratives that bat away personal accountability. ETA, that's not to say that those former rules weren't toxic as fuck in their own right, just that things are VERY different in terms of trying to navigate.

It's fucking wild.

You keep mentioning this, and it sounds horrifying.  How would one prepare their offspring for future dating in a cesspool like this?

[Metalcat]

People who aren't in the dating world right now really just can't grasp how fucked up it often is.

Seriously, the only vicarious trauma I have as a therapist is hearing about contemporary dating fuckery. I can hear stories that are so horrifying that they would peel paint off the walls and be fine, but when I hear the just fucking twisted interpersonal dynamics that have become "normal" in the dating world, my skin feels like it's covered in bugs.

Dating now is a lot like politics now. The veneer of rules and decorum and expectations have been stripped away, and naked, unabashed toxicity abound with people expertly equipped with narratives that bat away personal accountability. ETA, that's not to say that those former rules weren't toxic as fuck in their own right, just that things are VERY different in terms of trying to navigate.

It's fucking wild.

You keep mentioning this, and it sounds horrifying.  How would one prepare their offspring for future dating in a cesspool like this?

Ugh...I'm not even sure.

Probably get them a really good book on boundaries, encourage them to have mental health support if they ever feel like a relationship is making them question themselves, etc.

Really, it's that they need sources on mental health concepts that are superior to how those concepts are being weaponized against them.

[getsorted]

it did feel like you maybe haven't met people who are genuinely happily non-monogamous

You might want to think about whether it's the right time to defend your preferred relationship style when someone is sharing something that was really upsetting and difficult for them. You can love polyamory and still hold space for the fact that for many people, a partner asking to open the relationship is shocking, painful, and deeply destabilizing. You can love polyamory and still allow for the fact that some people practicing it are doing so coercively. You can love polyamory and not insist that people stop in the middle of their difficult experiences to say "but not all poly people."

When someone describes their religious trauma and people chime in to say "That person wasn't a REAL Christian!" or "Those dynamics can happen outside of churches, too!" that's not helpful.

[Raenia]

it did feel like you maybe haven't met people who are genuinely happily non-monogamous

You might want to think about whether it's the right time to defend your preferred relationship style when someone is sharing something that was really upsetting and difficult for them. You can love polyamory and still hold space for the fact that for many people, a partner asking to open the relationship is shocking, painful, and deeply destabilizing. You can love polyamory and still allow for the fact that some people practicing it are doing so coercively. You can love polyamory and not insist that people stop in the middle of their difficult experiences to say "but not all poly people."

When someone describes their religious trauma and people chime in to say "That person wasn't a REAL Christian!" or "Those dynamics can happen outside of churches, too!" that's not helpful.

I'm sorry if I came off that way, it was not in any way my intention. My point was only that awful people can use any excuse to be awful, and it is genuinely terrible when that happens.

[merula]

@getsorted , I'm enthralled by your description of this guy and I want to hear literally everything. Where did this behavior come from? Why does he think any of this is OK? It almost sounds like a script from either a terrible MRA youtuber or the start of a romcom.

Re: poly vs mono, I'm sorry for any part I played in bringing up an upsetting dynamic. I don't really fit either category, tbh (non-monogamous commitment that's been almost entirely monogamous for a decade), so both sides are a bit confusing to me. When I had a dating profile it started with "ENM", so I think I was insulated from the kind of poly person you described.

[Metalcat]

@getsorted , I'm enthralled by your description of this guy and I want to hear literally everything. Where did this behavior come from? Why does he think any of this is OK? It almost sounds like a script from either a terrible MRA youtuber or the start of a romcom.

Re: poly vs mono, I'm sorry for any part I played in bringing up an upsetting dynamic. I don't really fit either category, tbh (non-monogamous commitment that's been almost entirely monogamous for a decade), so both sides are a bit confusing to me. When I had a dating profile it started with "ENM", so I think I was insulated from the kind of poly person you described.

*Waves*

Hi, yeah, that's why I've been saying pretty often lately that folks who are in healthy situations have a really hard time grasping unhealthy folks and their toxic dynamics.

You have to understand that A LOT of folks out there engage in this way and think it's totally reasonable. They aren't operating from a healthy perspective and choosing to be toxic instead, they engage in toxicity and feel like it's completely rational.

Your average dismissive avoidant feels like they're being totally reasonable and everyone else is too sensitive/reactive.

[getsorted]

@getsorted , I'm enthralled by your description of this guy and I want to hear literally everything. Where did this behavior come from? Why does he think any of this is OK? It almost sounds like a script from either a terrible MRA youtuber or the start of a romcom.

Which one? There are three different guys represented in my last several posts. The coffee date guy was your classic elder millennial ren faire poly guy, who detailed his entire history of psych diagnoses to me on the first (and last, and only) date. The spreadsheet guy was like, your classic Gen-X guy who has a massive record collection and "hates labels" (including poly and ENM). He had two lesbian wingmen who kept trying to convince me monogamy was an unnatural tool of the patriarchy and I needed to free myself. The third guy was a techbro who liked to bitterly complain that his ex strongarmed him into an open relationship, but was maybe the most masterful manipulator I've ever met in my life? He tried to tell me that not wanting to engage with his kinks was kink-shaming? All three of them had podcasts.

@getsorted , I'm enthralled by your desc
Re: poly vs mono, I'm sorry for any part I played in bringing up an upsetting dynamic. I don't really fit either category, tbh (non-monogamous commitment that's been almost entirely monogamous for a decade), so both sides are a bit confusing to me. When I had a dating profile it started with "ENM", so I think I was insulated from the kind of poly person you described.

One of my oldest and closest friends is basically the same, and I think if I didn't have her in my life, I would have been a lot more susceptible to the coerciveness. I could call her and be like, "Am I being narrow-minded or is this a bit much?" and she would be like, "WTF."

I'm sorry if I came off that way, it was not in any way my intention. My point was only that awful people can use any excuse to be awful, and it is genuinely terrible when that happens.

I appreciate you saying so and I think we're really in agreement. I do know happy non-monogamous folks; actually, the "diversified portfolio of codependence" is cribbed from one of them. It just does seem to me sometimes like if I bring up the bad experiences I had, there's an instant response of "not all" stories and it feels like being shut down. I get that people will use anything as a justification for bad behavior.

[merula]

Hi, yeah, that's why I've been saying pretty often lately that folks who are in healthy situations have a really hard time grasping unhealthy folks and their toxic dynamics.

You have to understand that A LOT of folks out there engage in this way and think it's totally reasonable. They aren't operating from a healthy perspective and choosing to be toxic instead, they engage in toxicity and feel like it's completely rational.

Your average dismissive avoidant feels like they're being totally reasonable and everyone else is too sensitive/reactive.

I don't consider myself particularly emotionally healthy (paragraph of reasons typed and then deleted), but that's astounding. Is there any way to engage with these people, or is it just a matter of identifying them early? How? And is it just men?

@getsorted I'm not sure if it's better that this horror wasn't all wrapped up in one dude, or worse that there are so many out there.

All three of them had podcasts.

I did a literal spit take.

[Metalcat]

Hi, yeah, that's why I've been saying pretty often lately that folks who are in healthy situations have a really hard time grasping unhealthy folks and their toxic dynamics.

You have to understand that A LOT of folks out there engage in this way and think it's totally reasonable. They aren't operating from a healthy perspective and choosing to be toxic instead, they engage in toxicity and feel like it's completely rational.

Your average dismissive avoidant feels like they're being totally reasonable and everyone else is too sensitive/reactive.

I don't consider myself particularly emotionally healthy (paragraph of reasons typed and then deleted), but that's astounding. Is there any way to engage with these people, or is it just a matter of identifying them early? How? And is it just men?

@getsorted I'm not sure if it's better that this horror wasn't all wrapped up in one dude, or worse that there are so many out there.

All three of them had podcasts.

I did a literal spit take.

Women have plenty of their own emotional injuries resulting in unhealthy behaviours. Men and women do tend to be conditioned differently, so we see different trends, but they're not at all universal patterns.

How do you manage it? The best way is by having your own excellent mental health and boundaries. Unhealthy behaviours are generally pretty aversive to healthy people.

Having your own mental health struggles can make you really susceptible to finding certain unhealthy patterns normal/comfortable, often in ways that you can't even perceive.

[getsorted]

Having your own mental health struggles can make you really susceptible to finding certain unhealthy patterns normal/comfortable, often in ways that you can't even perceive.

Or you can find all relationships uncomfortable, and have a hard time telling when things are uncomfortable because of your stuff or because of their stuff. I have avoidant tendencies myself and so I have to take a step back and process when something twigs my "get out now" alarm... because almost everything twigs my "get out now" alarm.

All three of them had podcasts.

I did a literal spit take.

They should study me. I'm like the woman who could smell Parkinson's, but for podcasters. It's like 85% of the people I've been on a date with, and I never know that in advance.

[Metalcat]

Having your own mental health struggles can make you really susceptible to finding certain unhealthy patterns normal/comfortable, often in ways that you can't even perceive.

Or you can find all relationships uncomfortable, and have a hard time telling when things are uncomfortable because of your stuff or because of their stuff. I have avoidant tendencies myself and so I have to take a step back and process when something twigs my "get out now" alarm... because almost everything twigs my "get out now" alarm.

All three of them had podcasts.

I did a literal spit take.

They should study me. I'm like the woman who could smell Parkinson's, but for podcasters. It's like 85% of the people I've been on a date with, and I never know that in advance.

That is extremely weird.

[Sibley]

Well, turns out I know someone who is poly. Didn't know it until this weekend (there's a thread, and yes, I'm still laughing). But yes, I can see why poly can attract emotionally unhealthy people, and can be a mechanism for abuse. Not all the time, but the risk is there. There a ton of stuff on social media about the pitfalls of poly relationships. I get viscerally uncomfortable when there's a big age difference, even when the younger person is a full, mature adult. I get uncomfortable when there's children involved, particularly young children. It's subtle, but its there.

It boils down to, is the relationship healthy. Really healthy, not just pretending to be healthy. And all parties must be enthusiastically consenting. If that's the case, great. I'm cool. I don't care what combination of genders there are. I don't need to understand it, I don't need to want it.

Getsorted - I know 1 person who has a podcast! He's married to a former coworker, seems cool. No clue what the podcast is about. It is weird that you keep finding podcast people.

[Ron Scott]

I have always found monogamy to be liberating. I married in my 30s and honestly grew tired of the prelude to sexual relationships and the waltz required to properly maintain them. An exclusive sexual relationship carves out a personal space I find important in my life.

Perhaps it’s because I’m a man, but it’s so easy to brush off an advance I no longer need or am flattered by. Sometimes I actually find it insulting—but men are expected to acquiesce or back off politely, so…

I’ve known men who cheat on their wives but i don’t understand the interest in the games and the lying. Seems like a bore IMO.

[brunetteUK]

People who aren't in the dating world right now really just can't grasp how fucked up it often is.

Seriously, the only vicarious trauma I have as a therapist is hearing about contemporary dating fuckery. I can hear stories that are so horrifying that they would peel paint off the walls and be fine, but when I hear the just fucking twisted interpersonal dynamics that have become "normal" in the dating world, my skin feels like it's covered in bugs.

Dating now is a lot like politics now. The veneer of rules and decorum and expectations have been stripped away, and naked, unabashed toxicity abound with people expertly equipped with narratives that bat away personal accountability. ETA, that's not to say that those former rules weren't toxic as fuck in their own right, just that things are VERY different in terms of trying to navigate.

It's fucking wild.

You keep mentioning this, and it sounds horrifying.  How would one prepare their offspring for future dating in a cesspool like this?

No to speak for Metalcat, but I can give some insight into current dating:

- If you're a single person of dating age, the norm is to have a profile on one app or on various apps.

- Being on the apps is the norm, the same way that everyone had facebook at some point and everyone has a mobile phone nowadays. Which means not being on the apps already requires a thought out, voluntary effort. It requires justifying to yourself and possibly to your friends why you are not on the apps.

- Being on multiple apps is also the norm. Which means it will take time, focus and effort to look at profiles, send and answer messages.

- When people create their profile, you have the people who put zero effort and who will get zero in return. And you have the majority of people who will try to portray best version of themselves. This means most profiles will be made to be appealing which can lead to disppointment. Like this:
This person looks great in all these aspects!
They don't match with you.
They might not even be opening their app. You create mini hopes and expectations for nothing.
If you match, they don't give the same good vibes as on their profile. You create mini hopes and expectations for nothing.
If you match, the conversation might go well but a lot of times, they don't invite you to a date or don't agree to actual in person date plans. You create mini hopes and expectations for nothing.
If you match, the conversation go well and you meet up, people are still going to be very different from their profile. I know the joke is for photos to be deceiving. In my experience, that hasn't been the case. It's more that on their profile, people are fun and confident and then in person, the are... well.. human with more nuances. By now you have created bigger hopes and expectatios.


- Since the majority of single people are on the apps, you get everyone. Which means you don't really get useful info from their profile. Are they looking for something casual? Are they looking for something serious? Are they even looking for anything?! There is the joke that dating apps are only openened while the person is in the toilet so they can look at beautiful people fo the gender they're interested in.

- There is this homogenisation of profiles and behaviours to conform to our society. Which means:
Everyone will expect guys to initiate talking and inviting out etc.
Guys will act as confident and women will act chaste/uninterested.
Which means... more apps will be created for specific groups of interest, not necessarily a good thing but more time and energy!

What does it means in terms of lived experience of someone doing online dating (my perspective is that of a woman but I'll try to add what my male friends have said):

- While the pressure to meet someone is still the same as pre-mobiles phones, the expectation is that you will act on it much more often. Instead of meeting someone new via your friends or even chatting on dating forums, now you can swipe all day, everyday. Which means when you're still single, you feel like you're failing even harder. And feel extra lonely.

- The apps bring a distance and anonimity. It's so much easier for people to be less nice when they don't know you in real life, when they can come in and disappear out of your life in an instant. This lack of other social bonds also create a dissonance in our heads, I dated that guy for two months, then puff, never to be seen again after a rejection text.

- When all goes well and you meet the person face to face, this can entail various things:
You will take time out of your evening or weekend to get ready, leave the house, travel to the meet up place. Remeber it's easy to put pressure on yourself to go serial dating and try to go on multiple dates a week.
You are still meeting a stranger without any social buffer of other friends, a course or work environment.

- If meeting people is easier and more frequent, being rejected or meeting someone you don't find suitable for you will also be easier and more frequent. So more heartbreak.

How to better handle this dating dynamic?
* Take your time. Spend less time on the apps and speak to fewer people even though it's tempting to play the numbers game. Talk to one person at the time until it dies out or you move on to meeting up.
* Avoid the temptation to be like everyone else and speak more truthfully of yourself. (In my case, I'm a fairly confident woman. Do you know how hard is it not to succumb to being passive? I also wanted a gentle, soft hearted man. I know there are plenty out there, I've met them, but it's easier for guys to be steriotypical as well)
* Meeting strangers in person can be super stressfull.
* Meeting someone, then fancing that someone only to be rejected is stressfull and actually traumatising.
* The two points above tie back to "take it slow". Being rejected so bluntly (even if politely and warmly) is awful. I remember coming back from a date with a guy who was clearly interested in me and whom I found zero appealing and calling my friend, asking her if I could come to her place and then sitting on her sofa in a fetal position trying to comfort myself.
I remember coming back from a date where I liked the guy, damn he seemed so good, only to be rejected afterwards. I curled up under a blanket and took time to recover.
* Understand yourself and your limits/boundaries. Meet up somewhere in Central London that will take me one hour to get there? No. Meet up when it will take time away from my friends or my rest? No. Talk to someone for ages and let that expectation grow? No.
* Understand that life can happen outside the apps. It's very hard to go against this norm. But you can. You may feel like you should just keep trying, after all, it's a numbers game. But you can allow yourself to not be on the apps. Or to be on the apps on your own terms.
* Read or listen to Shani Silver, read feminist stuff, question gender roles and gender expectations.

PEOPLE DON'T UNDERSTAND HOW HARD IT IS! Coupled up people keep telling us to get on the app, give it a try, ok this guy didn't work, how about another one? Dating at the speed that dating apps allow it can be very harmful.

In simple terms, it's like going to many jobs interviews a month, for many years, and still not having a job.

[Metalcat]

^the biggest point that a lot of older folks who dated pre-app don't really grasp from all of that above is how not fucking nice people are on apps.

There's a low grade hostility in every interaction because everyone on the apps is weary and frustrated.

I really sat down and explored the apps with a younger person to try and grasp WTF my clients were experiencing and it's a pretty hostile environment. I remember in a club environment that young men and women could be pretty rude and dismissive of one another, but apps amp that up to 11.

So even when two people click, they're kind of hyper vigilant to the ways in which they are likely to be disappointed. Also, because of the apps, there are just so, so many other options, so it's very easy to feel like effort isn't worth it.

Seriously, the exchanges I've had on FB Marketplace are more pleasant, charming, and effortful than what I see on apps.

So when pairings are generated by default from such a hostile and untrusting dynamic, it's hard for them to naturally progress in a respectful and loving way. The adversarial nature of the apps has kind of seeped into courtship in general.

And with absolutely NO social structure around what even constitutes "dating," it's an extremely challenging process to even anticipate what a relationship progression will be.

Because if it's already adversarial to a degree, there are zero rules about how the early stages progress, and there's always an app full of options available, how does a relationship even progress???

I cannot overstate this. A "relationship" can get stuck in the "talking" phase for YEARS. And to remind folks, "talking" can involve two people having regular sex, meeting each other's families, saying "I love you, spending multiple nights a week together, taking vacations together, all the while, one side is refusing to call it "dating" and still swiping away on the toilet.

This is normal. Absolutely, totally normal. In fact, it's far more common now than two people meeting, going on a bunch of dates with the natural assumption on both sides that the more dates they go on and the more they like each other that the closer they're getting to a committed relationship.

This is because the individuals connecting are operating largely from a defensive stance. They start out adversarial and they stay adversarial to some degree, always feeling the need to protect themselves from the dynamic.

Back when I dated, and hoo boy, did I date A LOT, we were generally nice to each other and while we could be guarded, we were generally operating from the assumption that the other person was likely acting in good faith, and we would only end up in a fucked up, poorly defined situationship if something went wrong.

Now, fucked up and poorly defined is the norm.

[StarBright]

Because if it's already adversarial to a degree, there are zero rules about how the early stages progress, and there's always an app full of options available, how does a relationship even progress???

I cannot overstate this. A "relationship" can get stuck in the "talking" phase for YEARS. And to remind folks, "talking" can involve two people having regular sex, meeting each other's families, saying "I love you, spending multiple nights a week together, taking vacations together, all the while, one side is refusing to call it "dating" and still swiping away on the toilet.

This is normal. Absolutely, totally normal. In fact, it's far more common now than two people meeting, going on a bunch of dates with the natural assumption on both sides that the more dates they go on and the more they like each other that the closer they're getting to a committed relationship.

So I just read a novel called "The Husbands" and I didn't get it until I read your post. I thought it was well written, but the main character's actions just made ZERO sense to me and I had a hard time connecting with it at all. But I'm an old who paired up the old fashioned way in the aughts.

[blue_green_sparks]

Because if it's already adversarial to a degree, there are zero rules about how the early stages progress, and there's always an app full of options available, how does a relationship even progress???

I cannot overstate this. A "relationship" can get stuck in the "talking" phase for YEARS. And to remind folks, "talking" can involve two people having regular sex, meeting each other's families, saying "I love you, spending multiple nights a week together, taking vacations together, all the while, one side is refusing to call it "dating" and still swiping away on the toilet.

This is normal. Absolutely, totally normal. In fact, it's far more common now than two people meeting, going on a bunch of dates with the natural assumption on both sides that the more dates they go on and the more they like each other that the closer they're getting to a committed relationship.

So I just read a novel called "The Husbands" and I didn't get it until I read your post. I thought it was well written, but the main characters actions just made ZERO sense to me and I had a hard time connecting with it at all. But I'm an old who paired up the old fashioned way in the aughts.

I distinctly remember the conversation when I "casually" mentioned and simultaneously asked "So, I took down all my dating profiles, have you as well?". She said she was "very happy to know that" and "yes, she will do the same". That's how and when I knew we were exclusive. I also recall our first big fight. One of my childish thoughts was to revive my profile and rifle through the myriads for a grudge date or something. How stupid. I decided against it. A couple hours later we were all good again.

[Metalcat]

Because if it's already adversarial to a degree, there are zero rules about how the early stages progress, and there's always an app full of options available, how does a relationship even progress???

I cannot overstate this. A "relationship" can get stuck in the "talking" phase for YEARS. And to remind folks, "talking" can involve two people having regular sex, meeting each other's families, saying "I love you, spending multiple nights a week together, taking vacations together, all the while, one side is refusing to call it "dating" and still swiping away on the toilet.

This is normal. Absolutely, totally normal. In fact, it's far more common now than two people meeting, going on a bunch of dates with the natural assumption on both sides that the more dates they go on and the more they like each other that the closer they're getting to a committed relationship.

So I just read a novel called "The Husbands" and I didn't get it until I read your post. I thought it was well written, but the main characters actions just made ZERO sense to me and I had a hard time connecting with it at all. But I'm an old who paired up the old fashioned way in the aughts.

It's taken me an obscene amount of research to remotely grasp WHAT THE EVER LOVING FUCK young people are talking about when they talk about dating.

None of it made any fucking sense to me, and that's speaking as someone who was a hardcore power-dater up until a decade ago.

If you de-aged me and dropped me into the shark-infested waters of the current dating scene, I would be eaten alive.

I still expect someone who is trying to get me naked to be reasonably nice to me.

[getsorted]

PEOPLE DON'T UNDERSTAND HOW HARD IT IS!

All of your post! But also, this.

A close friend and I were talking about it. She and I have both survived a lot of life's big shitstorms, and we both find the apps draining and demoralizing in ways that baffle us. Like, we are resilient, capable, joyful people who love being alive! Why does this app suck the life out of us?

Even after four or five years, even after crossing the threshold from 40 to 41 where the number of potential matches dropped precipitously, even after thinking very hard about exactly what I want, what I'm offering, and exactly how much of my life I can allow dating to take up, it's exhausting. Even though I have a pretty good sense of people and have learned to critically analyze these profiles, even though I swipe left (no) on everyone who is negative, overtly critical of women, or at this point, ambivalent, "open to anything," or just dull-- it's still just demoralizing.

It's partly the nature of the apps themselves. They make you feel like a commodity, and not a very good one. They are constantly telling you, "Maybe you'll do better if you buy this upgrade package!" And they can influence you to start viewing other people as a consumable good, as well. I have to constantly remind myself that this is a weird and artificial construct, and that life itself is very different.

[getsorted]

It's taken me an obscene amount of research to remotely grasp WHAT THE EVER LOVING FUCK young people are talking about when they talk about dating.

None of it made any fucking sense to me, and that's speaking as someone who was a hardcore power-dater up until a decade ago.

If you de-aged me and dropped me into the shark-infested waters of the current dating scene, I would be eaten alive.

I still expect someone who is trying to get me naked to be reasonably nice to me.

Just reiterating -- it's not just young people.

My first relationship about two years after my divorce was with someone I connected with via the apps but had known casually for over a decade. We were a really good match -- both single parents to similarly-aged kids, with similar interests, both financially stable and with decent career tracks. We talked each others' ears off. Several weeks into dating, we were in a store together holding hands when he suddenly dropped my hand and literally disappeared. I was so confused. I was literally standing in Lowe's asking myself, "wait, where did my boyfriend go?" Then later that day, we were driving and I waved to someone I knew-- someone in our shared social circle. He grew visibly uncomfortable and agitated. The wheels started turning in my head. I thought about how he would comment in real life to me about things he had seen me post to my social media, but he had never interacted with them digitally.

We pulled into my driveway, and I turned to him and asked, "Um, are we dating? or are we SECRET dating?"

It turned out he had not only not told a single person in his life he was getting a divorce, he was still living with his ex. I immediately ended it and was shocked. What sticks with me now is how he phrased all of this in therapy-speak-- he was "protecting himself," he "wasn't emotionally ready" for a public relationship, he was "asking for support and not judgement" from me. He honestly made me feel very stupid for expecting that a relationship had any kind of natural progression, and made me feel as if my assumption that our relationship was not a secret was an unfair imposition. And that's sort of the attitude I have found repeatedly in the dating world-- that what I would have thought were normal relationship assumptions are unfair. That they are the ones who decide what things are. There can be no expectations at all, not even of reciprocity.

It is quite tiring to have to negotiate everything and it does make you feel defensive. You become alert for small signs. Did they refer to it as a date or a "hang"? Do they introduce you to other people if you are out and about together, or do you just sort of stand there like an unmentionable appendage? But even if all of those things are going well, you still can't expect anything or rest easy, because some guy who told you he loved you and sent you pictures of houses you might buy together might still absolutely freak out if you refer to him as your boyfriend. You NEVER KNOW unless you have a conversation, and there will be no conversation unless you insist on it, and what is less romantic than insisting (or begging) that someone talk to you about what the fuck it is we're doing here?

[GuitarStv]

Jesus Christ, this is bleak.

[Metalcat]

It's taken me an obscene amount of research to remotely grasp WHAT THE EVER LOVING FUCK young people are talking about when they talk about dating.

None of it made any fucking sense to me, and that's speaking as someone who was a hardcore power-dater up until a decade ago.

If you de-aged me and dropped me into the shark-infested waters of the current dating scene, I would be eaten alive.

I still expect someone who is trying to get me naked to be reasonably nice to me.

Just reiterating -- it's not just young people.

My first relationship about two years after my divorce was with someone I connected with via the apps but had known casually for over a decade. We were a really good match -- both single parents to similarly-aged kids, with similar interests, both financially stable and with decent career tracks. We talked each others' ears off. Several weeks into dating, we were in a store together holding hands when he suddenly dropped my hand and literally disappeared. I was so confused. I was literally standing in Lowe's asking myself, "wait, where did my boyfriend go?" Then later that day, we were driving and I waved to someone I knew-- someone in our shared social circle. He grew visibly uncomfortable and agitated. The wheels started turning in my head. I thought about how he would comment in real life to me about things he had seen me post to my social media, but he had never interacted with them digitally.

We pulled into my driveway, and I turned to him and asked, "Um, are we dating? or are we SECRET dating?"

It turned out he had not only not told a single person in his life he was getting a divorce, he was still living with his ex. I immediately ended it and was shocked. What sticks with me now is how he phrased all of this in therapy-speak-- he was "protecting himself," he "wasn't emotionally ready" for a public relationship, he was "asking for support and not judgement" from me. He honestly made me feel very stupid for expecting that a relationship had any kind of natural progression, and made me feel as if my assumption that our relationship was not a secret was an unfair imposition. And that's sort of the attitude I have found repeatedly in the dating world-- that what I would have thought were normal relationship assumptions are unfair. That they are the ones who decide what things are. There can be no expectations at all, not even of reciprocity.

It is quite tiring to have to negotiate everything and it does make you feel defensive. You become alert for small signs. Did they refer to it as a date or a "hang"? Do they introduce you to other people if you are out and about together, or do you just sort of stand there like an unmentionable appendage? But even if all of those things are going well, you still can't expect anything or rest easy, because some guy who told you he loved you and sent you pictures of houses you might buy together might still absolutely freak out if you refer to him as your boyfriend. You NEVER KNOW unless you have a conversation, and there will be no conversation unless you insist on it, and what is less romantic than insisting (or begging) that someone talk to you about what the fuck it is we're doing here?

Lol, see DH was like this when we first dated and it took him an entire decade to try and get me back after that fuckery.

And the only reason I did take him back was because we both attributed that nonsense to both of his parents having just died. And even then, it took a good long time for me to get over that the first time we dated, that he refused to ever let me refer to him as my "boyfriend" because he "wasn't comfortable with expectations.

But even then, he readily agreed to be exclusive, and literally everyone made fun of him for his absurd refusal to adhere to a label of what we very obviously were to each other. He wasn't easy to talk to about the state of our relationship, but he never framed it that my expectations were unreasonable, just not something he could meet.

As it's slowly dawned on me that one of my most painful and frustrating dating experience has become the norm, only much, much worse, I've been horrified.

That was over 20 years ago, and DH's unhealthy and unfair behaviours were considered extremely unreasonable, deranged, and downright stupid by everyone who saw or heard about them. His own therapist was like "your girlfriend put up with what??" and could only make sense of it because I was so young when we started dating.

But past-DH would be considered extremely reasonable, kind, and emotionally generous by today's standards. And that took me 10 frickin' years to get over!

[simonsez]

Because if it's already adversarial to a degree, there are zero rules about how the early stages progress, and there's always an app full of options available, how does a relationship even progress???

I cannot overstate this. A "relationship" can get stuck in the "talking" phase for YEARS. And to remind folks, "talking" can involve two people having regular sex, meeting each other's families, saying "I love you, spending multiple nights a week together, taking vacations together, all the while, one side is refusing to call it "dating" and still swiping away on the toilet.

This is normal. Absolutely, totally normal. In fact, it's far more common now than two people meeting, going on a bunch of dates with the natural assumption on both sides that the more dates they go on and the more they like each other that the closer they're getting to a committed relationship.

So I just read a novel called "The Husbands" and I didn't get it until I read your post. I thought it was well written, but the main characters actions just made ZERO sense to me and I had a hard time connecting with it at all. But I'm an old who paired up the old fashioned way in the aughts.

I distinctly remember the conversation when I "casually" mentioned and simultaneously asked "So, I took down all my dating profiles, have you as well?". She said she was "very happy to know that" and "yes, she will do the same". That's how and when I knew we were exclusive. I also recall our first big fight. One of my childish thoughts was to revive my profile and rifle through the myriads for a grudge date or something. How stupid. I decided against it. A couple hours later we were all good again.

I had totally forgotten all about silly stuff like that!  I remember odd convos, feelings, and just in general a disproportionate amount of attention coming from my intimate circles when I removed the status on FB that stated I was in a relationship (with my ex).  This was 2007 and before the mass adoption of dating apps, at least in my bubble at the time though I did have an aunt who had married someone via online dating already by that point.  I never changed it to be explicit about who I was in a relationship with again, though I did change it to the general status of married years later but the fever pitch of the aughts on stuff like that had faded significantly (at least for me moving from early 20s to mid/late 20s).  It was mostly funny to me (perhaps due to the novelty) but also absurd and a bit obnoxious.

If I ever have to date again, I'm going to have real problems until I either get stupidly lucky or completely broken down and forced to change course as I'm stubborn and the current version of me couldn't do apps.  Just not interested in the manufactured drama that comes with it (and the type of person that would be) and would rather roll the dice with semi-random/not-that-random human interactions in person.  Might have to change my tune eventually, though, if dating were to come to pass again.  There is just so much a good looking tall guy in his early 20s can conquer that a less attractive middle aged bald version of that with love handles and bags under their eyes (unless it's summer like now and I have a great tan!) cannot or at least not to the same degree. 

Or as the Monarch once stated, "You think you're hot shit in a champagne glass but you're really cold diarrhea in a Dixie cup!"

It's a good motivator for me to work on my current relationship as much as possible and just be brutally honest with myself and my wife (not to mention it helps spur/keep workouts happening at semi-regular intervals and to keep a diet from falling off the rails too much).  Life is great now and we need to do what we can to maximize the odds that it stays that way.  Never take the great things in life for granted!

[getsorted]

He wasn't easy to talk to about the state of our relationship, but he never framed it that my expectations were unreasonable, just not something he could meet.

I've encountered this phrase from many people, but what bothers me about it is that saying, "I just can't meet your expectations" is not enough. It's not fair to say, "I can't meet your expectations" and then allow the other person to continue giving you all the benefits of a relationship. But that is exactly what men do, and then they say, "But that's your choice, I told you this from the beginning."  They'll call you for emotional support, ask you for favors, reveal their intimate secrets and thoughts, rely on you, make future plans (if it suits them), but they don't allow the women they turn to like this to do the same. And "I told you not to expect this of me" becomes a moral shield.

If you're not going to allow someone to expect things of you, don't then turn to that person to provide exactly what you are not going to provide. And if you're not able to meet expectations, but you kind of wish you were, then maybe do something about it that isn't trolling the dating apps for whoever has the lowest expectations? Maybe read a book, or go to therapy, or spend some serious time talking with your close friends?

[Metalcat]

He wasn't easy to talk to about the state of our relationship, but he never framed it that my expectations were unreasonable, just not something he could meet.

I've encountered this phrase from many people, but what bothers me about it is that saying, "I just can't meet your expectations" is not enough. It's not fair to say, "I can't meet your expectations" and then allow the other person to continue giving you all the benefits of a relationship. But that is exactly what men do, and then they say, "But that's your choice, I told you this from the beginning."  They'll call you for emotional support, ask you for favors, reveal their intimate secrets and thoughts, rely on you, make future plans (if it suits them), but they don't allow the women they turn to like this to do the same. And "I told you not to expect this of me" becomes a moral shield.

If you're not going to allow someone to expect things of you, don't then turn to that person to provide exactly what you are not going to provide. And if you're not able to meet expectations, but you kind of wish you were, then maybe do something about it that isn't trolling the dating apps for whoever has the lowest expectations? Maybe read a book, or go to therapy, or spend some serious time talking with your close friends?

Oh yeah, that's my whole point that it was SO not okay a few decades ago. And yet now would be considered fine.

The level of accountability for the other person's feelings is at an all time low.

And that's where the abuse of therapy speak comes in. People have gotten VERY good at justifying their own wants and diminishing the other person's.

[erp]

This is the most baffling series of comments. I guess my underlying astonishment is "holy shit, are dating apps really this bad?" (and yes, I get that the responses all say YES!!!! emphatically).

I don't really date a whole lot, but it's almost exclusively through existing social networks and people I've met doing things with in the real world. Kind of by dumb luck, a lot of those people have done a ton of thinking about relationship progression and escalators - so at least those sorts of "where do you see yourself in 5 years" type of questions are virtually always discussed before an actual date might happen.

I guess I'll continue avoiding dating apps, because this sounds like a carefully curated version of hell.

[getsorted]

This is the most baffling series of comments. I guess my underlying astonishment is "holy shit, are dating apps really this bad?" (and yes, I get that the responses all say YES!!!! emphatically).

I don't really date a whole lot, but it's almost exclusively through existing social networks and people I've met doing things with in the real world. Kind of by dumb luck, a lot of those people have done a ton of thinking about relationship progression and escalators - so at least those sorts of "where do you see yourself in 5 years" type of questions are virtually always discussed before an actual date might happen.

I guess I'll continue avoiding dating apps, because this sounds like a carefully curated version of hell.

Unfortunately, app culture breaks through into the real world as well. My last two entanglements were both "wild-caught" and still had the same issues. One of them is particularly funny: I met someone IRL who I thought was cute, asked him out. It went like this--
Me: "You seem really cool. Would you like to get coffee or have dinner with me?"
Him: "Oh, wow, well, I'm not really looking for anything serious or anything like that, but we could hang out and get to know each other!" And I was kind of wrong-footed, because he frequently talks about being on the apps and how he wants to find a girlfriend. So I said, "Oh, okay, well, do you want to go for a walk or something?" The next week, we go for a walk and chat. I had already adjusted my expectations that this was not a date (because I am slowly learning). He said he'd like to hang out again, but did not want to schedule anything at that time, and I didn't hear from him.

The weird thing is that the next time I saw him, I gave a casual wave but didn't go over to him (I was with friends), and he seemed weirdly pissed off. Later that evening, he posted a long rant to his social media about how hard it is for him to connect because of all his past trauma and how difficult and crazy his life is, and no one understands and everyone expects too much of him. This man is in his mid-thirties.

In retrospect, it would have been better if I'd just said, "Oh, okay, no thanks, then. I thought you were actively looking to date." Because SOMEBODY has to be clear in this hellscape. But now I just have this guy on the periphery of my social circle who seems really irritated that I didn't actively chase him down when he made absolutely no indication to me that he had even the slightest interest.

[wenchsenior]

People who aren't in the dating world right now really just can't grasp how fucked up it often is.

Seriously, the only vicarious trauma I have as a therapist is hearing about contemporary dating fuckery. I can hear stories that are so horrifying that they would peel paint off the walls and be fine, but when I hear the just fucking twisted interpersonal dynamics that have become "normal" in the dating world, my skin feels like it's covered in bugs.

Dating now is a lot like politics now. The veneer of rules and decorum and expectations have been stripped away, and naked, unabashed toxicity abound with people expertly equipped with narratives that bat away personal accountability. ETA, that's not to say that those former rules weren't toxic as fuck in their own right, just that things are VERY different in terms of trying to navigate.

It's fucking wild.

You keep mentioning this, and it sounds horrifying.  How would one prepare their offspring for future dating in a cesspool like this?

No to speak for Metalcat, but I can give some insight into current dating:

- If you're a single person of dating age, the norm is to have a profile on one app or on various apps.

- Being on the apps is the norm, the same way that everyone had facebook at some point and everyone has a mobile phone nowadays. Which means not being on the apps already requires a thought out, voluntary effort. It requires justifying to yourself and possibly to your friends why you are not on the apps.

- Being on multiple apps is also the norm. Which means it will take time, focus and effort to look at profiles, send and answer messages.

- When people create their profile, you have the people who put zero effort and who will get zero in return. And you have the majority of people who will try to portray best version of themselves. This means most profiles will be made to be appealing which can lead to disppointment. Like this:
This person looks great in all these aspects!
They don't match with you.
They might not even be opening their app. You create mini hopes and expectations for nothing.
If you match, they don't give the same good vibes as on their profile. You create mini hopes and expectations for nothing.
If you match, the conversation might go well but a lot of times, they don't invite you to a date or don't agree to actual in person date plans. You create mini hopes and expectations for nothing.
If you match, the conversation go well and you meet up, people are still going to be very different from their profile. I know the joke is for photos to be deceiving. In my experience, that hasn't been the case. It's more that on their profile, people are fun and confident and then in person, the are... well.. human with more nuances. By now you have created bigger hopes and expectatios.


- Since the majority of single people are on the apps, you get everyone. Which means you don't really get useful info from their profile. Are they looking for something casual? Are they looking for something serious? Are they even looking for anything?! There is the joke that dating apps are only openened while the person is in the toilet so they can look at beautiful people fo the gender they're interested in.

- There is this homogenisation of profiles and behaviours to conform to our society. Which means:
Everyone will expect guys to initiate talking and inviting out etc.
Guys will act as confident and women will act chaste/uninterested.
Which means... more apps will be created for specific groups of interest, not necessarily a good thing but more time and energy!

What does it means in terms of lived experience of someone doing online dating (my perspective is that of a woman but I'll try to add what my male friends have said):

- While the pressure to meet someone is still the same as pre-mobiles phones, the expectation is that you will act on it much more often. Instead of meeting someone new via your friends or even chatting on dating forums, now you can swipe all day, everyday. Which means when you're still single, you feel like you're failing even harder. And feel extra lonely.

- The apps bring a distance and anonimity. It's so much easier for people to be less nice when they don't know you in real life, when they can come in and disappear out of your life in an instant. This lack of other social bonds also create a dissonance in our heads, I dated that guy for two months, then puff, never to be seen again after a rejection text.

- When all goes well and you meet the person face to face, this can entail various things:
You will take time out of your evening or weekend to get ready, leave the house, travel to the meet up place. Remeber it's easy to put pressure on yourself to go serial dating and try to go on multiple dates a week.
You are still meeting a stranger without any social buffer of other friends, a course or work environment.

- If meeting people is easier and more frequent, being rejected or meeting someone you don't find suitable for you will also be easier and more frequent. So more heartbreak.

How to better handle this dating dynamic?
* Take your time. Spend less time on the apps and speak to fewer people even though it's tempting to play the numbers game. Talk to one person at the time until it dies out or you move on to meeting up.
* Avoid the temptation to be like everyone else and speak more truthfully of yourself. (In my case, I'm a fairly confident woman. Do you know how hard is it not to succumb to being passive? I also wanted a gentle, soft hearted man. I know there are plenty out there, I've met them, but it's easier for guys to be steriotypical as well)
* Meeting strangers in person can be super stressfull.
* Meeting someone, then fancing that someone only to be rejected is stressfull and actually traumatising.
* The two points above tie back to "take it slow". Being rejected so bluntly (even if politely and warmly) is awful. I remember coming back from a date with a guy who was clearly interested in me and whom I found zero appealing and calling my friend, asking her if I could come to her place and then sitting on her sofa in a fetal position trying to comfort myself.
I remember coming back from a date where I liked the guy, damn he seemed so good, only to be rejected afterwards. I curled up under a blanket and took time to recover.
* Understand yourself and your limits/boundaries. Meet up somewhere in Central London that will take me one hour to get there? No. Meet up when it will take time away from my friends or my rest? No. Talk to someone for ages and let that expectation grow? No.
* Understand that life can happen outside the apps. It's very hard to go against this norm. But you can. You may feel like you should just keep trying, after all, it's a numbers game. But you can allow yourself to not be on the apps. Or to be on the apps on your own terms.
* Read or listen to Shani Silver, read feminist stuff, question gender roles and gender expectations.

PEOPLE DON'T UNDERSTAND HOW HARD IT IS! Coupled up people keep telling us to get on the app, give it a try, ok this guy didn't work, how about another one? Dating at the speed that dating apps allow it can be very harmful.

In simple terms, it's like going to many jobs interviews a month, for many years, and still not having a job.

This sounds like a complete and utter nightmare to me. Clearly, if using dating apps is required, I will simply never date again if my DH dies. There is NO WAY I would put myself through that, rather than (possibly) date the old fashioned way, or else just simply stay single.

And Metalcat's posts are making me so depressed, on other peoples' behalf.

[merula]

My experience with a dating app was not nearly as dire as @Metalcat 's description, but that was on one targeted to a population that doesn't include cis men.

It still wasn't awesome, there were flakes and weirdos, people who didn't look anything like their photos, people who spiced up the chats way too early, dashed hopes, etc., but almost everyone seemed up-front about what they wanted. I never encountered anyone adversarial, unkind, or trying to take more from a relationship than they were willing to give. I wasn't at all successful and that was disappointing enough that I quit.

Given the population, you'd think there'd be more potential for a story like @getsorted 's Lowe's debacle, but people were clear about how out they were (orientation/transition/non-monogamy), so it actually seems less likely.

Unfortunately for me personally, that app did not have all that many users even in a mid-large metro area, so it would seem that women aren't done with men to the extent they're turning to non-men to date.

[jrhampt]

It seems like it would be easier to meet people in a pickleball league or a running group or something, no?  Although they might still display some of the same symptoms of these app users, as getsorted notes.

[Metalcat]

This sounds like a complete and utter nightmare to me. Clearly, if using dating apps is required, I will simply never date again if my DH dies. There is NO WAY I would put myself through that, rather than (possibly) date the old fashioned way, or else just simply stay single.

And Metalcat's posts are making me so depressed, on other peoples' behalf.

Now take everything that has been described and extend that to coercive and manipulative sexual dynamics in an environment where there are few to no sexual norms aside from everything having to appear to be consensual, but this is usually achieved through similar shaming techniques as described above.

Let that sink in and then think about the fact that I reported vicarious trauma hearing some of these stories. And I hear sexual assault stories as a normal part of my every day.

[Villanelle]

The younger people in my life (because I'm not super close to any less-young single people, now that I think about it) who have found what appear to be stable, healthy, longer-term relationships seem almost exclusively to have found them not through-the-apps.  Work, mutual friends, shared hobby interactions, that sort of thing. 

That always made sense to me, but it does so even more now.  It sounds like a hellscape, but also like one that's tough to avoid if you want to be actively be trying to find a partner, or even just get laid. It makes me somewhat surprised that human matchmakers aren't a growing industry (or maybe they are?).  A human, especially one with some kind of psychology background, could pre-screen out some of these horror-story types, or at least categorize what people actually want, and maybe save some time and frustration.  Or maybe these same characters would lie and fleece (but again, maybe someone with a psych background could see through some of that?) and then be just as douchy and manipulative on their dates. 

I'm going to go tell DH how much I love and appreciate him!

[Metalcat]

It seems like it would be easier to meet people in a pickleball league or a running group or something, no?  Although they might still display some of the same symptoms of these app users, as getsorted notes.

Yeah, it's the dating culture that's the problem. It is influenced by apps, but has a life of its own.

Many of my younger clients won't actually use apps anymore, they're still subjected to this nonsense. Because even if they don't use the apps, probability is that the other person does.

...and that neither of them can define "talking" or "dating" in any kind of comprehensible manner.

[Ron Scott]

Jesus Christ, this is bleak.

Thanks. I needed a laugh!

I think it really is bleak for many people. But not all and many others are perfectly fine.

Like many things on life, including wealth and success, luck and circumstances certainly play a big part. That, expectations, life plans, etc. can all be make-or-break issues.

I’ve been lucky…





I

[getsorted]

I'm going to go tell DH how much I love and appreciate him!

My sister (married for around 25 years) and I came up with a plan that we should match married women with single women, and let the married women swipe & conduct initial conversations on the single women's behalf. This would mean single women get a pre-screened set of matches without having to stare straight into the void of the average straight male's unbridled id, and married women will gain a new appreciation for their partners.

Silly and perhaps unethical, but it would make a great rom-com!

Now take everything that has been described and extend that to coercive and manipulative sexual dynamics in an environment where there are few to no sexual norms aside from everything having to appear to be consensual, but this is usually achieved through similar shaming techniques as described above.

Yep. I've had several conversations with friends where I had to explain that "sex-positive" is not supposed to mean "absolutely no boundaries, preferences, or limits around sex," and that not wanting to do every single thing a partner requests was not "failing to be GGG." There is a real conversation to be had around sexual needs and compatibility, but people are running around with the belief that anything they are interested in is automatically a "need" and therefore becomes an obligation for their partner that supersedes their own safety, much less preference. There's no give and take; there's just give, or else.

[Michael in ABQ]

This thread makes me happy that I met my wife almost 20 years ago and didn't have to deal with all this BS. We did technically meet on an online dating site (one that was heavily advertising on MySpace if memory serves) but I was able to find her on Facebook (back when it was still limited to college students) and initiated a conversation. We met for a first date the next day and got married a year later.

I still remember my older brother gave me the advice to find someone in college to marry as it gets way harder after that to meet people. It took him another 20 years after college to find the right woman so I'm glad I internalized that advice at the time.

[Metalcat]

https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.7257736

All about young women getting too exhausted with dating, echoes what was said earlier about it feeling like perpetual job hunting

[StarBright]

I'm going to go tell DH how much I love and appreciate him!

My sister (married for around 25 years) and I came up with a plan that we should match married women with single women, and let the married women swipe & conduct initial conversations on the single women's behalf. This would mean single women get a pre-screened set of matches without having to stare straight into the void of the average straight male's unbridled id, and married women will gain a new appreciation for their partners.

Silly and perhaps unethical, but it would make a great rom-com!

Not that you need something else to do - but I would buy this book :)

[getsorted]

This thread makes me happy that I met my wife almost 20 years ago and didn't have to deal with all this BS. We did technically meet on an online dating site (one that was heavily advertising on MySpace if memory serves) but I was able to find her on Facebook (back when it was still limited to college students) and initiated a conversation. We met for a first date the next day and got married a year later.

I still remember my older brother gave me the advice to find someone in college to marry as it gets way harder after that to meet people. It took him another 20 years after college to find the right woman so I'm glad I internalized that advice at the time.

I mean, I also married my college sweetheart, as did many of my family and friends, but it didn't work out so great for a lot of us. You're not lucky you were spared the apps; you're lucky that the person you picked continues to invest in you and prioritize your relationship.

Edited to add: A friend recently sent me screenshots of my ex-husbands dating app profile and wow, would I absolutely not swipe on that today. 22-year-old me didn't know a red flag from a hole in the ground.

[jeninco]

@GuitarStv , we have sons. Mostly we’ve tried to teach them to be good men and to remember to regard other humans as agents, not objects. (Little CS humor there, but it was a way to start talking about this when they were in middle school).

Or, to paraphrase my grandma, “ remember there’s a human being who should be treated with dignity on either side of your dick.” (Um, my grandmas version was “remember that stick has two ends” - she was talking about a literal stick)

[pachnik]

I don’t have anything to add since my husband and I have been together for 18 years.  Thanks to the posters especially BrunetteUK, Getsorted and Metalcat going into the details of the online dating scene.  It is really shocking.  I really feel for people dealing with it.