Author Topic: America on the precipice: What are you doing?  (Read 19624 times)

marble_faun

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Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
« Reply #200 on: January 14, 2021, 06:25:40 PM »
Is it accurate to say that the USA is strong b/c the government survived the Civil War 158 years ago? That was very different time, very different knowledge levels, very different levels of technology, very different sensibilities.

I'm not sure anything before the 1950s is a good yardstick.

The Civil War helped make the central government as strong as it is now. 

But you don't have to look that far back.  In the 1960s we had tons of riots, assassinations, bombings, and major divisions between right and left, but eventually the situation normalized. 

Many of what you're describing was actually caused by the government though.  At least the CIA certainly did (and probably still are).  They did things like infiltrate pseudo-socialist group The Weathermen with their own people with the goal of making the group more radical and likely to perform terrorist attacks against citizens of the US . . . the reasoning being that this would reduce support for socialism.  And it worked great.  After the CIA radicalized the group the Weathermen started bombing stuff and lost public support.  It also helped lead to the tensions that caused the Kent State shooting.

Oh, I know, I'm not an apologist for the US government (just a left-leaning person who happens to love America and our democratic traditions like the peaceful transfer of power).

Just pointing out that the country has been in tumult before, but the forces of stability (and social torpor even) are strong. 

I don't see any reason to cower in fear from pro-fa or make plans to leave the US.  I'm looking forward to the future.

Milizard

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Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
« Reply #201 on: January 15, 2021, 05:50:36 PM »
You couldn't do that the same day but I'm not sure we should allow someone to register to vote the day of the election.  It's not like the election date isn't known years ahead of time.  Publicize the last day to register and then vote two weeks later (or however long we need).  If someone isn't willing to register ahead of time (and we don't make it difficult) they aren't very motivated to vote. 
DC has a larger  population  than Vermont  as well. (Same # of electoral  votes)
https://simple.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_population


Just because an 18-year-old teen mom in Detroit, or a homeless in NYC is less motivated to vote, it does not necessarily follow that their voice is less important than that of a landed white farmer in a rural area.

Their vote is absolutely 100% as important as mine, yours or anyone else's.  I never said or meant to imply anything different.  But, I am very willing to spend an hour registering to vote to ensure a fair election and I would expect anyone who cares about democracy to do the same.

Not true at all.  In the American system, rural votes are more important than the 18 year old mom in Detroit, or the guy in NYC.  Rural votes count for more and are not equal.

That's not exactly how it works.  Votes in states with low total populations tend to be worth more.  The system doesn't discriminate based on rural vs urban. 
Votes in DC (no rural areas at all) are worth more than any state besides Wyoming.  Votes in rural Texas or California (there are lots or rural areas in Texas and California) are worth less than your mom in Detroit or guy in NYC just because of the large total number of voters in the state.  As a general rule, states with low populations do tend to be more rural but it's not really a rural vs urban thing.  Reference:  https://www.fairvote.org/population_vs_electoral_votes

Milizard

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Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
« Reply #202 on: January 15, 2021, 06:02:10 PM »
As to the question,  I'm not doing much differently.  Wondering if the market will finally take a hit, but thats neither here nor there.   I unfriended most Trumpers on Facebook after the act of  war happened on the 6th. I was passed, and did not think I could continue to remain civil if I encountered any more of their bullshit on Facebook.  Its been a lot--much of my DH's family.  Thats it. I could not continue biting my tongue like I had been for years. I blame them for contributing to the echo chamber. I blame them for their "Christian " hypocrisy. I did not cut them out of my life completely, just out of my social media.

  Its the cult of lies that frightens and angers me, and reminds me of Hitler's rise in power. The basket of deplorables will always be there. The echo chamber emboldens those deplorables, adding the delusional into their numbers.

Freedom2016

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Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
« Reply #203 on: January 15, 2021, 06:05:41 PM »
As to the question,  I'm not doing much differently.  Wondering if the market will finally take a hit, but thats neither here nor there.   I unfriended most Trumpers on Facebook after the act of  war happened on the 6th. I was passed, and did not think I could continue to remain civil if I encountered any more of their bullshit on Facebook.  Its been a lot--much of my DH's family.  Thats it. I could not continue biting my tongue like I had been for years. I blame them for contributing to the echo chamber. I blame them for their "Christian " hypocrisy. I did not cut them out of my life completely, just out of my social media.

  Its the cult of lies that frightens and angers me, and reminds me of Hitler's rise in power. The basket of deplorables will always be there. The echo chamber emboldens those deplorables, adding the delusional into their numbers.

It sucks so bad that Hillary Clinton was right this entire time, and she was punished for pointing it out. Reminds me of this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAhF8tPqafQ



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Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
« Reply #204 on: January 15, 2021, 06:26:13 PM »
Is it accurate to say that the USA is strong b/c the government survived the Civil War 158 years ago?

Without question, yes it is accurate to say so.

The bestial carnage of the Civil War resulted in the   reification of the organizing principle  that the United States of America is an indivisible union of States though each has reserved, sovereign powers under the Tenth Amendment.




maizefolk

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Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
« Reply #205 on: January 15, 2021, 06:26:42 PM »
Was supposed to have some people come out to the house on Monday to do some work. Just got a phone call that the company involved is cancelling and rescheduling all appointments all next week out of concern for the safety of their employees. I sure hope that simply reflects an overabundance of caution/allergy to potential liability on the part of large publicly traded companies. We'll know soon enough. Ugh.

For those of you who think Clinton was right all along, please do remember she put only one half of Trump supporters in her metaphorical basket of deplorables while in the same speech she said that the other half of the people supporting Trump "... are people who feel that the government has let them down, the economy has let them down, nobody cares about them, nobody worries about what happens to their lives and their futures, and they’re just desperate for change. It doesn’t really even matter where it comes from. They don’t buy everything he says, but he seems to hold out some hope that their lives will be different. They won’t wake up and see their jobs disappear, lose a kid to heroine, feel like they’re in a dead-end. Those are people we have to understand and empathize with as well."

Milizard

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Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
« Reply #206 on: January 15, 2021, 06:45:07 PM »
As to the question,  I'm not doing much differently.  Wondering if the market will finally take a hit, but thats neither here nor there.   I unfriended most Trumpers on Facebook after the act of  war happened on the 6th. I was passed, and did not think I could continue to remain civil if I encountered any more of their bullshit on Facebook.  Its been a lot--much of my DH's family.  Thats it. I could not continue biting my tongue like I had been for years. I blame them for contributing to the echo chamber. I blame them for their "Christian " hypocrisy. I did not cut them out of my life completely, just out of my social media.

  Its the cult of lies that frightens and angers me, and reminds me of Hitler's rise in power. The basket of deplorables will always be there. The echo chamber emboldens those deplorables, adding the delusional into their numbers.

It sucks so bad that Hillary Clinton was right this entire time, and she was punished for pointing it out. Reminds me of this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAhF8tPqafQ
Politicians are punished for telling too much truth. That comment likely cost her the election.  Obamas  "cling to their guns and religion" cost democrats a lot of support as well.

I was saying this on another message board recently: Democrats really have to work on their marketing of ideas.  They are mostly terrible at it.  I didn't used to get the draw of the whole "Hope and Change" motto, either, but I get it now.  Short, simple feel-good ideas.  Those other things aren't.  They make people feel bad about themselves, and those people will reject in turn.

Bloop Bloop Reloaded

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Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
« Reply #207 on: January 15, 2021, 10:06:28 PM »
Kinda weird that liberals can't call hardcore conservatives "Deplorables" but conservatives can get away with calling liberals ivory tower elites, pussies, and even worse words.

Says something I think about the mentality of a lot of social conservatives. A very "us against the world" view which is a little sad.


markbike528CBX

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Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
« Reply #208 on: January 15, 2021, 11:27:23 PM »
While I disagree with the premise of the thread  "America on the precipice: "
I will answer "What are you doing?"

I wrote my congressman, a Republican, via mail and Facebook.

Trifle

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Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
« Reply #209 on: January 16, 2021, 03:11:54 AM »
While I disagree with the premise of the thread  "America on the precipice: "
I will answer "What are you doing?"

I wrote my congressman, a Republican, via mail and Facebook.

Same here.  And he wrote back, denouncing the riot but doubling down on the "steal" lie.  OK, dude -- if that's the strategy you're pursuing here -- sticking with the ProFa far right -- I'm not just voting against you in two years, I'm going to make it my damned mission to see you're not reelected and we flip this district.   

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Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
« Reply #210 on: January 16, 2021, 04:06:24 AM »
While I disagree with the premise of the thread  "America on the precipice: "
I will answer "What are you doing?"

I wrote my congressman, a Republican, via mail and Facebook.

Same here.  And he wrote back, denouncing the riot but doubling down on the "steal" lie.  OK, dude -- if that's the strategy you're pursuing here -- sticking with the ProFa far right -- I'm not just voting against you in two years, I'm going to make it my damned mission to see you're not reelected and we flip this district.
Did you write back asking him to state on what facts he believes this racist Big Lie?  Or is it just prejudice on his part?

Trifle

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Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
« Reply #211 on: January 16, 2021, 04:21:55 AM »
While I disagree with the premise of the thread  "America on the precipice: "
I will answer "What are you doing?"

I wrote my congressman, a Republican, via mail and Facebook.

Same here.  And he wrote back, denouncing the riot but doubling down on the "steal" lie.  OK, dude -- if that's the strategy you're pursuing here -- sticking with the ProFa far right -- I'm not just voting against you in two years, I'm going to make it my damned mission to see you're not reelected and we flip this district.
Did you write back asking him to state on what facts he believes this racist Big Lie?  Or is it just prejudice on his part?

Not yet but I will!  His office hasn't heard the last of me.  I don't have much hope of my letters doing any good -- he was one of the speakers at the rally before the riot [shudder] -- but at the very least I want him to be hearing from reasonable people who are calling him out.  And then I will organize/do what I can to make sure he is OUT in two years. 

ETA:  There are some current calls and petitions for him to resign, but I don't think that's going to happen
« Last Edit: January 16, 2021, 04:23:43 AM by Trifele »

ctuser1

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Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
« Reply #212 on: January 16, 2021, 04:40:44 AM »
Kinda weird that liberals can't call hardcore conservatives "Deplorables" but conservatives can get away with calling liberals ivory tower elites, pussies, and even worse words.

Says something I think about the mentality of a lot of social conservatives. A very "us against the world" view which is a little sad.

It is an economic class issue.

Calling out the poorer "working class" based on some generic markers is seen to be in bad taste. Nobody bats an eyelid calling the white collar class (="coastal liberals") names.

To me it just seems like the common human dislike of kicking someone when he/she is down.

former player

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Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
« Reply #213 on: January 16, 2021, 05:27:58 AM »
Kinda weird that liberals can't call hardcore conservatives "Deplorables" but conservatives can get away with calling liberals ivory tower elites, pussies, and even worse words.

Says something I think about the mentality of a lot of social conservatives. A very "us against the world" view which is a little sad.

It is an economic class issue.

Calling out the poorer "working class" based on some generic markers is seen to be in bad taste. Nobody bats an eyelid calling the white collar class (="coastal liberals") names.

To me it just seems like the common human dislike of kicking someone when he/she is down.
I just wish that dislike were more common that it seems to be.  Or that people refrained from acting because of that dislike.

Just Joe

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Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
« Reply #214 on: January 16, 2021, 10:04:48 AM »
Kinda weird that liberals can't call hardcore conservatives "Deplorables" but conservatives can get away with calling liberals ivory tower elites, pussies, and even worse words.

Says something I think about the mentality of a lot of social conservatives. A very "us against the world" view which is a little sad.

And libtards... I really hate that one. 

Kris

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Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
« Reply #215 on: January 16, 2021, 10:10:12 AM »
Kinda weird that liberals can't call hardcore conservatives "Deplorables" but conservatives can get away with calling liberals ivory tower elites, pussies, and even worse words.

Says something I think about the mentality of a lot of social conservatives. A very "us against the world" view which is a little sad.

And libtards... I really hate that one.

Demonrats is the one that gets me. It's just so... laughable.

ctuser1

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Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
« Reply #216 on: January 16, 2021, 10:35:56 AM »
Name calling is only as effective as you let it be.

If you let it affect you what others think of you, then that is a weakness that will be exploited in any competitive field in life.


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Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
« Reply #217 on: January 16, 2021, 10:40:40 AM »
Name calling is only as effective as you let it be.

If you let it affect you what others think of you, then that is a weakness that will be exploited in any competitive field in life.
I don't think the problem is that we "left-wingers" think of ourselves as "demon rats", it's that the Trumpists think of us as "demon rats" - and they are not going to be able to talk or compromise with people they think of as "demon rats".  That's the problem, not our hurt feelings.

markbike528CBX

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Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
« Reply #218 on: January 16, 2021, 10:44:20 AM »
While I disagree with the premise of the thread  "America on the precipice: "
I will answer "What are you doing?"

I wrote my congressman, a Republican, via mail and Facebook.

Same here.  And he wrote back, denouncing the riot but doubling down on the "steal" lie.  OK, dude -- if that's the strategy you're pursuing here -- sticking with the ProFa far right -- I'm not just voting against you in two years, I'm going to make it my damned mission to see you're not reelected and we flip this district.
Did you write back asking him to state on what facts he believes this racist Big Lie?  Or is it just prejudice on his part?

Not yet but I will!  His office hasn't heard the last of me.  I don't have much hope of my letters doing any good -- he was one of the speakers at the rally before the riot [shudder] -- but at the very least I want him to be hearing from reasonable people who are calling him out.  And then I will organize/do what I can to make sure he is OUT in two years. 

ETA:  There are some current calls and petitions for him to resign, but I don't think that's going to happen

My Republican Congressman was one of the ten who voted for impeachment. His second letter back to me specified some timeline on Trumps anti-Pence tweets and the mobs shouting "Hang Pence" shortly thereafter. 

Edit to add, yes, he is getting a lot of  "your career is over" hate on his Facebook page.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2021, 10:52:50 AM by markbike528CBX »

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Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
« Reply #219 on: January 16, 2021, 10:56:28 AM »
Kinda weird that liberals can't call hardcore conservatives "Deplorables" but conservatives can get away with calling liberals ivory tower elites, pussies, and even worse words.

Says something I think about the mentality of a lot of social conservatives. A very "us against the world" view which is a little sad.

And libtards... I really hate that one.

Demonrats is the one that gets me. It's just so... laughable.

The bellicose shouters such as Levin, Limbaugh, et al. say "Democrat Party."

How  many people know that this use of "Democrat" is a pejorative?

John Galt incarnate!

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Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
« Reply #220 on: January 16, 2021, 11:03:02 AM »
As to the question,  I'm not doing much differently.  Wondering if the market will finally take a hit, but thats neither here nor there.   I unfriended most Trumpers on Facebook after the act of  war happened on the 6th. I was passed, and did not think I could continue to remain civil if I encountered any more of their bullshit on Facebook.  Its been a lot--much of my DH's family.  Thats it. I could not continue biting my tongue like I had been for years. I blame them for contributing to the echo chamber. I blame them for their "Christian " hypocrisy. I did not cut them out of my life completely, just out of my social media.

  Its the cult of lies that frightens and angers me, and reminds me of Hitler's rise in power. The basket of deplorables will always be there. The echo chamber emboldens those deplorables, adding the delusional into their numbers.

It sucks so bad that Hillary Clinton was right this entire time, and she was punished for pointing it out. Reminds me of this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAhF8tPqafQ
Politicians are punished for telling too much truth.

"In Washington, telling the truth is a gaffe."


That comment likely cost her the election.  Obamas  "cling to their guns and religion" cost democrats a lot of support as well.

I was saying this on another message board recently: Democrats really have to work on their marketing of ideas.  They are mostly terrible at it.  I didn't used to get the draw of the whole "Hope and Change" motto, either, but I get it now.  Short, simple feel-good ideas.  Those other things aren't.  They make people feel bad about themselves, and those people will reject in turn.

Just Joe

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Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
« Reply #221 on: January 16, 2021, 12:00:22 PM »
Name calling is only as effective as you let it be.

If you let it affect you what others think of you, then that is a weakness that will be exploited in any competitive field in life.
I don't think the problem is that we "left-wingers" think of ourselves as "demon rats", it's that the Trumpists think of us as "demon rats" - and they are not going to be able to talk or compromise with people they think of as "demon rats".  That's the problem, not our hurt feelings.

Its the lack of respect going back and forth between the two groups. The left (as I know it) wants to discuss and plan and the right (as I know it) wants to call names and repeat rumors...

dang1

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Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
« Reply #222 on: January 16, 2021, 12:58:07 PM »
The U.S. Capitol Riot Was Years in the Making. Here's Why America Is So Divided

https://time.com/5929978/the-u-s-capitol-riot-was-years-in-the-making-heres-why-america-is-so-divided/

white Americans—many of them white rural—are seeing their status in society threatened as a result of demographics and the recent racial reckoning

rise of inequality of opportunity as well. And this latter form is more devastating—when people feel that they never even got a shot to compete, let alone to succeed, they get angry.

media ways of communicating that over time fragmented into more and more niche offerings until consumers could “enjoy” only those viewpoints that reinforced their own

Bloop Bloop Reloaded

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Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
« Reply #223 on: January 16, 2021, 06:21:54 PM »
I have very little sympathy for the white (overwhelmingly male) Americans who benefited from America's cultural and military imperialism (and slavery, obviously) for two centuries and are now revolting because those "blacks" and "women" now have equal rights and they can't ride roughshod over them any more. Or heaven forfend all those coloured people can migrate to the US now and get good jobs as doctors and pharmacists and consign the dumb majority to more menial work. Welcome to not having unjustified privilege. Population: You.

You're not guaranteed any status in society - not any more. Now you know how all them minorities have felt for centuries.

Morning Glory

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Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
« Reply #224 on: January 16, 2021, 06:28:26 PM »
"'I’m facing a prison sentence': US Capitol rioters plead with Trump for pardons | US Capitol breach | The Guardian" https://amp.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/jan/16/us-capitol-rioters-donald-trump-pardons

Then you have this woman who insists that she deserves a pardon. What did she think would happen?

OtherJen

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Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
« Reply #225 on: January 16, 2021, 06:35:02 PM »
I have very little sympathy for the white (overwhelmingly male) Americans who benefited from America's cultural and military imperialism (and slavery, obviously) for two centuries and are now revolting because those "blacks" and "women" now have equal rights and they can't ride roughshod over them any more. Or heaven forfend all those coloured people can migrate to the US now and get good jobs as doctors and pharmacists and consign the dumb majority to more menial work. Welcome to not having unjustified privilege. Population: You.

You're not guaranteed any status in society - not any more. Now you know how all them minorities have felt for centuries.

Preach. Neither of my Mexican immigrant grandparents had a formal education, and they picked crops to make ends meet. Neither of my white grandparents finished high school, and one of them was an immigrant. Both of my parents barely finished high school. I worked my ass off to do very well in high school, undergrad, and grad school to become the first doctor (PhD) in my family. And yet the assumption was often that I got in solely because of my minority status and took a place from a (supposedly deserving) white kid. Fuck that. They could have worked as hard as I did and then they would have been viable competition.

RetiredAt63

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Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
« Reply #226 on: January 17, 2021, 08:05:40 AM »
I have very little sympathy for the white (overwhelmingly male) Americans who benefited from America's cultural and military imperialism (and slavery, obviously) for two centuries and are now revolting because those "blacks" and "women" now have equal rights and they can't ride roughshod over them any more. Or heaven forfend all those coloured people can migrate to the US now and get good jobs as doctors and pharmacists and consign the dumb majority to more menial work. Welcome to not having unjustified privilege. Population: You.

You're not guaranteed any status in society - not any more. Now you know how all them minorities have felt for centuries.

Preach. Neither of my Mexican immigrant grandparents had a formal education, and they picked crops to make ends meet. Neither of my white grandparents finished high school, and one of them was an immigrant. Both of my parents barely finished high school. I worked my ass off to do very well in high school, undergrad, and grad school to become the first doctor (PhD) in my family. And yet the assumption was often that I got in solely because of my minority status and took a place from a (supposedly deserving) white kid. Fuck that. They could have worked as hard as I did and then they would have been viable competition.

Like the Ecole Polytechnique shooter who thought female engineering students were taking places guys should have had.  Last I looked young women were the vast majority of students at Quebec's veterinary school.  Because they are doing the work once they were allowed in at all.  Gender, colour, the young white men used to have easy access to the good degrees and now they don't.  The competent hard-working ones will do fine, but the slackers can't slide by any more.

I find reading older literature can be interesting for changes in social norms.  Gaudy Night is so eye-opening.

maizefolk

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Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
« Reply #227 on: January 17, 2021, 08:28:51 AM »
...The competent hard-working ones will do fine, but the slackers can't slide by any more....

Do you really think so? There are all sorts of reasons we could have different frames of reference: from living in different countries to having different ideas of what it means to be doing fine (or what it means to be competent for that matter). But I think back the the folks I went to high school with, and many, not all of them but many, where intelligent and motivated and hard working. ...and yet.... The better part of two decades later many of those same people have been struggling and are still struggling.

At least in my observation, at least for my part of one country and at least for my definitions of competent and hard working and "doing fine", being competent and hard working isn't enough anymore. At least in my part of this one country I see a move more and more towards a winner take all society where  the absolute smartest* and hardest working** do increasingly well while the vast majority of people who are still competent and still willing to work hard are less and less likely to be able to earn some security and stability of their own. I know it can be easier and more comfortable to blame any struggles on personal failures and that people should just work harder to pull themselves up by their bootstraps. Yet that is simply not what I see around me, nor what I see from the trajectories of my high school cohort.

*Where smartest means having both the gift of native intelligence and the advantage of a childhood and young adulthood where one can work on refining and credentialing their talents instead of needed to focus simply on earning enough money to just get by.

**Where hardest working means not only motivation and drive, but also a life that allows then to focus on work during the workweek, log long hours at work, and ideally have a spouse who puts their own career ambitions aside to help propel them forward, or no spouse/no children.

OtherJen

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Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
« Reply #228 on: January 17, 2021, 09:51:18 AM »
...The competent hard-working ones will do fine, but the slackers can't slide by any more....

Do you really think so? There are all sorts of reasons we could have different frames of reference: from living in different countries to having different ideas of what it means to be doing fine (or what it means to be competent for that matter). But I think back the the folks I went to high school with, and many, not all of them but many, where intelligent and motivated and hard working. ...and yet.... The better part of two decades later many of those same people have been struggling and are still struggling.

At least in my observation, at least for my part of one country and at least for my definitions of competent and hard working and "doing fine", being competent and hard working isn't enough anymore. At least in my part of this one country I see a move more and more towards a winner take all society where  the absolute smartest* and hardest working** do increasingly well while the vast majority of people who are still competent and still willing to work hard are less and less likely to be able to earn some security and stability of their own. I know it can be easier and more comfortable to blame any struggles on personal failures and that people should just work harder to pull themselves up by their bootstraps. Yet that is simply not what I see around me, nor what I see from the trajectories of my high school cohort.

*Where smartest means having both the gift of native intelligence and the advantage of a childhood and young adulthood where one can work on refining and credentialing their talents instead of needed to focus simply on earning enough money to just get by.

**Where hardest working means not only motivation and drive, but also a life that allows then to focus on work during the workweek, log long hours at work, and ideally have a spouse who puts their own career ambitions aside to help propel them forward, or no spouse/no children.

What's the answer, then? Because going backwards to a period when someone like me (who has the brains, ability, and tenacity) would have been shut out of opportunities offered to white men simply because I am female and of minority ethnicity isn't the answer, either.

maizefolk

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Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
« Reply #229 on: January 17, 2021, 10:04:21 AM »
What's the answer, then? Because going backwards to a period when someone like me (who has the brains, ability, and tenacity) would have been shut out of opportunities offered to white men simply because I am female and of minority ethnicity isn't the answer, either.

I completely agree with you on that. On two different levels.

-First, what happened in the past was unjust.
-Second, even if someone didn't care about treating each other justly, the fact more people have opportunities today is not the main reason it's harder to get ahead.

If you go the auto factories you don't see a lot of women and people of color who have jobs that used to go to white men, you see a lot of robots and automation. If you goal into the coal mines you don't see a lot of women and people of color that have jobs that used to go to white men, you see some robots and automation but also fewer mines because we're shifting to a power grid that is less dependent on coal.

The leaders on the right like to blame the pool of "secure" jobs shrinking on immigration or opportunities for people who wouldn't have had them in the past. That's not a true answer. But denying that there is a problem, pretending that everything is going well and the only problem is many people aren't willing to work hard enough or aren't competent isn't a true answer either.

RetiredAt63

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Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
« Reply #230 on: January 17, 2021, 10:17:34 AM »
...The competent hard-working ones will do fine, but the slackers can't slide by any more....

Do you really think so? There are all sorts of reasons we could have different frames of reference: from living in different countries to having different ideas of what it means to be doing fine (or what it means to be competent for that matter). But I think back the the folks I went to high school with, and many, not all of them but many, where intelligent and motivated and hard working. ...and yet.... The better part of two decades later many of those same people have been struggling and are still struggling.

At least in my observation, at least for my part of one country and at least for my definitions of competent and hard working and "doing fine", being competent and hard working isn't enough anymore. At least in my part of this one country I see a move more and more towards a winner take all society where  the absolute smartest* and hardest working** do increasingly well while the vast majority of people who are still competent and still willing to work hard are less and less likely to be able to earn some security and stability of their own. I know it can be easier and more comfortable to blame any struggles on personal failures and that people should just work harder to pull themselves up by their bootstraps. Yet that is simply not what I see around me, nor what I see from the trajectories of my high school cohort.

*Where smartest means having both the gift of native intelligence and the advantage of a childhood and young adulthood where one can work on refining and credentialing their talents instead of needed to focus simply on earning enough money to just get by.

**Where hardest working means not only motivation and drive, but also a life that allows then to focus on work during the workweek, log long hours at work, and ideally have a spouse who puts their own career ambitions aside to help propel them forward, or no spouse/no children.

I was referring to doing fine in terms of being able to compete on a level playing field.*  Of course there are so many other factors, that everyone may be doing badly.  But who will be doing least badly?

*and even our metaphors are from sports that used to be all male.  Gah.

maizefolk

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Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
« Reply #231 on: January 17, 2021, 10:23:47 AM »
Now you posted up thread about grad school and research which is a field I know both of us have firsthand experience with. And I've seen the same comments you describe "so-and-so is only here because she's a woman, he's only here because he's black" and so on over and over. When people are competing over scarce resources, or even thinking about needing to compete for scarce resources, all these markers of racism and sexism go through the roof. And life in academia is a constant competition over scarce resources. But honestly, even there, I don't believe the fact that woman and people of color have a better shot than they would in the past is a primary driver of that resource scarcity.

We're operating in an academic system that worked really well when the college age population of the USA was growing rapidly and at the same time the proportion of college age students who end to college was growing. Those conditions held for decades, but now they don't. So we admit lots of PhD students who must fight over too few funding opportunities. And the ones who make it through then fight for too few faculty positions. And the ones who manage to get hired for a faculty position turn around and fight for funding so they can keep paying their grad students and that grad students can make rent. That's a situation that breeds a resource scarcity mindset which, in turn, in all too many people, produces racism and sexism about women and people of color having opportunities. But giving more people more opportunities isn't what caused the competition for scarce resources in the first place.

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Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
« Reply #232 on: January 17, 2021, 10:24:33 AM »
Was supposed to have some people come out to the house on Monday to do some work. Just got a phone call that the company involved is cancelling and rescheduling all appointments all next week out of concern for the safety of their employees. I sure hope that simply reflects an overabundance of caution/allergy to potential liability on the part of large publicly traded companies. We'll know soon enough. Ugh.

For those of you who think Clinton was right all along, please do remember she put only one half of Trump supporters in her metaphorical basket of deplorables while in the same speech she said that the other half of the people supporting Trump "... are people who feel that the government has let them down, the economy has let them down, nobody cares about them, nobody worries about what happens to their lives and their futures, and they’re just desperate for change. It doesn’t really even matter where it comes from. They don’t buy everything he says, but he seems to hold out some hope that their lives will be different. They won’t wake up and see their jobs disappear, lose a kid to heroine, feel like they’re in a dead-end. Those are people we have to understand and empathize with as well."

We know, and we do remember. It was Trump and his surrogates who worked so hard to make conservatives forget that part.

maizefolk

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Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
« Reply #233 on: January 17, 2021, 10:34:56 AM »
I was referring to doing fine in terms of being able to compete on a level playing field.*  Of course there are so many other factors, that everyone may be doing badly.  But who will be doing least badly?

*and even our metaphors are from sports that used to be all male.  Gah.

Fair enough. I'd say that falls into the bucket of having different definitions of "doing fine." Suspected it might be something like that.

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Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
« Reply #234 on: January 17, 2021, 10:41:59 AM »
Now you posted up thread about grad school and research which is a field I know both of us have firsthand experience with. And I've seen the same comments you describe "so-and-so is only here because she's a woman, he's only here because he's black" and so on over and over. When people are competing over scarce resources, or even thinking about needing to compete for scarce resources, all these markers of racism and sexism go through the roof. And life in academia is a constant competition over scarce resources. But honestly, even there, I don't believe the fact that woman and people of color have a better shot than they would in the past is a primary driver of that resource scarcity.

We're operating in an academic system that worked really well when the college age population of the USA was growing rapidly and at the same time the proportion of college age students who end to college was growing. Those conditions held for decades, but now they don't. So we admit lots of PhD students who must fight over too few funding opportunities. And the ones who make it through then fight for too few faculty positions. And the ones who manage to get hired for a faculty position turn around and fight for funding so they can keep paying their grad students and that grad students can make rent. That's a situation that breeds a resource scarcity mindset which, in turn, in all too many people, produces racism and sexism about women and people of color having opportunities. But giving more people more opportunities isn't what caused the competition for scarce resources in the first place.

More funding for education and research is what can actually make America great!!!! Maybe we can throw in single payer healthcare and housing-first social policies and more public transportation and libraries too. Tax the rich and quit wasting money on walls and private prisons.

dang1

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Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
« Reply #235 on: January 17, 2021, 10:44:30 AM »
Economic mobility differs geographically
https://www.huduser.gov/portal/pdredge/pdr_edge_featd_article_071414.html

"do not just “move up” but also generally “move out.” "
so move https://inequality.stanford.edu/sites/default/files/SOTU_2015_economic-mobility.pdf


Again:
"a huge swath of people in the U.S. have been left behind is because our politics written by race, written by regionalism long before Trump, has made us have the weakest welfare state and the weakest worker protections in the world for a rich country. And so, go across the border of Canada, go across the Atlantic to any Western European country, go the other direction to Australia or Singapore or Japan and workers have not been left behind as much."
https://ritholtz.com/2020/11/transcript-adam-posen/


It would help to vote for politicians that promote pro-worker policies

maizefolk

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Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
« Reply #236 on: January 17, 2021, 10:57:46 AM »
More funding for education and research is what can actually make America great!!!! Maybe we can throw in single payer healthcare and housing-first social policies and more public transportation and libraries too. Tax the rich and quit wasting money on walls and private prisons.

I completely agree we need more funding for education and research. But that along won't solve the resource scarcity problem in academia long term. The number of college students in the USA peaked in 2010 and has been on a gentle downward drift since. There is only so many professors we need to teach those students. Now if we could come up with a new approach to public sector R&D which produced many more "grown up" jobs that involved working in research but didn't necessarily depend on recruiting and training new graduate students, we'd have a better shot at both addressing the resource scarcity mindset in academia AND we'd probably get more research done per dollar. The current system has most of the hands on research done by people who are explicitly still learning how to do it, and if they are really REALLY good at it (and lucky) we promote them to the job of supervising new trainees while running around trying to teach classes and write grants to secure funding so much they don't use a lot of the skills they got so good at turning graduate school.

Fixing housing, absolutely. That one is much simpler. Tackle local zoning to encourage densification, particularly around public transit. You get a double win with the public transit making it possible to live without a car (allowing further densification because houses/apartment complexes don't need garages) AND having high density housing around each train/subway stop makes the economics of running and even expanding public transit networks a lot more practical. I'm completely on your side on this.

I just think it's a lot easier to line up the political support we need to make changes like these happen if we don't buy into the right wing narrative that the reason non-college educated white people are doing worse in this country is because black and brown people are doing better and those same worse off white people are slackers who aren't willing to work hard.

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Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
« Reply #237 on: January 17, 2021, 11:36:08 AM »


I just think it's a lot easier to line up the political support we need to make changes like these happen if we don't buy into the right wing narrative that the reason non-college educated white people are doing worse in this country is because black and brown people are doing better and those same worse off white people are slackers who aren't willing to work hard.

I'm totally with you on this one. I think the reason so many believe this narrative is that the republicans and rich white dudes have a much better marketing team and better stealth funding.   The Koch brothers et al. had a huge incentive to get people to believe that immigrants were the reason why their quality of life had diminished, not wealth inequality.  I had high hopes for Occupy Wall Street but it fizzled out.  Citizens United needs to go. So does the electoral college.

 I like the idea of more funding for basic sciences: It can create good jobs for educated people, do something good for society, and make the world respect the United States again.

SunnyDays

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Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
« Reply #238 on: January 17, 2021, 11:57:46 AM »
Economic mobility differs geographically
https://www.huduser.gov/portal/pdredge/pdr_edge_featd_article_071414.html

"do not just “move up” but also generally “move out.” "
so move https://inequality.stanford.edu/sites/default/files/SOTU_2015_economic-mobility.pdf


Again:
"a huge swath of people in the U.S. have been left behind is because our politics written by race, written by regionalism long before Trump, has made us have the weakest welfare state and the weakest worker protections in the world for a rich country. And so, go across the border of Canada, go across the Atlantic to any Western European country, go the other direction to Australia or Singapore or Japan and workers have not been left behind as much."
https://ritholtz.com/2020/11/transcript-adam-posen/


It would help to vote for politicians that promote pro-worker policies

As a Canadian, I am repeatedly amazed and disappointed that Americans tend to see "socialism" as a bad thing.  It is not a synonym for "Communism," but helps create a leveler playing field for all people.  When your basic needs are guaranteed (at least more so that in the US), you can focus on making the most of your potential, whatever that may be, which in turn benefits the rest of society.  Everybody wins.  I don't understand how that is so difficult to see, except that there has been generations of brainwashing leading to reflexive fear and rejection of the concept.  Unfortunately, often by those who would benefit the most by it.  But maybe that's the goal of the brainwashing - keep the perks in the hands of a relative few and let the rest suffer.  Which is so short-sighted.  That's exactly the cause of social revolutions, and I fear that one is brewing in the USofA.

maizefolk

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Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
« Reply #239 on: January 17, 2021, 12:03:47 PM »
I had high hopes for Occupy Wall Street as well. I was still in grad school at the time. Went to the first day of the local one on campus. What struck me at the time was that four out of every five people I ran into that day and night were people who weren't particularly politically engaged but just had this sense that what was happening in the country was wrong and we needed to go down a different track. The fifth out of five fit much more into the conventional "activist" mold and had a long list of specific issues and grievances some of which appeared linked to the Occupy movement and many others which were the regular grab bag of things that might have been protested on a college campus in any given year.

One of the many things that made "we are the 99%" a great rallying cry was that it simply was simply incompatible with movement being coopted into pitting the protestors against the people who had voted for or against any particular group of politicians. It kept the protests focused on the politicians who were making the decisions themselves and the wealthy interests that financed those same politician's campaigns and seemed to have much more influence over their decision making than the people who voted for them. I suspect that's why the Occupy protests also seem to have created the highest ratio of police violence directed at the protestors to violence acts committed by protestors of any I can remember (that's purely a personal impression, I don't have any stats to back it up).

Protests focused on the people making decisions are much scarier for those in power than protests that pit one large fraction of the country against another.

lukebuz

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Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
« Reply #240 on: January 17, 2021, 03:48:34 PM »
I live in one of those funny states where almost everyone in state government is a Republican... except for the governor. I'm not concerned about that kind of violence here. Drug and domestic violence is far more common.

While we have plenty of people out there with revolutionary hero fantasies, they're also quite lazy. It's easier to complain on Facebook than to take up arms.

What city in KY do you live in?   :P

ericrugiero

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Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
« Reply #241 on: January 18, 2021, 02:18:03 PM »
Economic mobility differs geographically
https://www.huduser.gov/portal/pdredge/pdr_edge_featd_article_071414.html

"do not just “move up” but also generally “move out.” "
so move https://inequality.stanford.edu/sites/default/files/SOTU_2015_economic-mobility.pdf


Again:
"a huge swath of people in the U.S. have been left behind is because our politics written by race, written by regionalism long before Trump, has made us have the weakest welfare state and the weakest worker protections in the world for a rich country. And so, go across the border of Canada, go across the Atlantic to any Western European country, go the other direction to Australia or Singapore or Japan and workers have not been left behind as much."
https://ritholtz.com/2020/11/transcript-adam-posen/


It would help to vote for politicians that promote pro-worker policies

As a Canadian, I am repeatedly amazed and disappointed that Americans tend to see "socialism" as a bad thing.  It is not a synonym for "Communism," but helps create a leveler playing field for all people.  When your basic needs are guaranteed (at least more so that in the US), you can focus on making the most of your potential, whatever that may be, which in turn benefits the rest of society.  Everybody wins.  I don't understand how that is so difficult to see, except that there has been generations of brainwashing leading to reflexive fear and rejection of the concept.  Unfortunately, often by those who would benefit the most by it.  But maybe that's the goal of the brainwashing - keep the perks in the hands of a relative few and let the rest suffer.  Which is so short-sighted.  That's exactly the cause of social revolutions, and I fear that one is brewing in the USofA.

I'm one of the Americans who sees "socialism" as bad thing overall.  The USA became a great and successful country because of the opportunity for individuals to start with nothing and work their way up to become a success.  Both immigrants and native born Americans have been successful for hundreds of years through their hard work and perseverance.  This has led to a country which has been widely acknowledged as the economic leader of the world.  It's also the easiest place in the world to FIRE. 

See the definition of socialism below:

Definition of socialism from Meriam Webster:
1 : any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods
2a : a system of society or group living in which there is no private property
2b : a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state
3 : a stage of society in Marxist theory transitional between capitalism and communism and distinguished by unequal distribution of goods and pay according to work done

My problem with socialism is that when the government owns and controls the property, goods and wealth there is a much less direct tie between how good a job someone does or how hard they work and how well they are paid (or rewarded).  This results in much less incentive for individuals to work hard and be successful.  The more each person can see a path to be rewarded for doing constructive things the more a society will flourish. 

Now, I'm not such a hard core capitalist that I don't think we should have some government intervention that could be considered socialism. 
-  Social security is needed in our country because so many people don't save adequately for retirement.  But, most of us won't get nearly what we should from it because the government has mis-managed and raided the funds. 
-  Welfare is needed in our country.  Some people have major challenges and need support. (challenges like poor health, mental illness, extreme lack or privilege, etc)  However, we should set it up so it's designed to be a short term solution as much as possible.  Right now, people are penalized for working and rewarded for having kids who are raised to stay on welfare. 
-  I don't pretend to have the answer for healthcare.  Simplified billing and transparency of costs prior to care would help.  We may still need government intervention.  Our system is clearly broken.  Government run healthcare doesn't seem to be all sunshine and roses either. 

Basically, I want to keep a system where an individual can work hard, "pull themselves up by their bootstraps" and be successful.  Capitalism has a better track record of that than socialism.  I recognize that not everyone has the same starting point and we need to help the underprivileged.  We just need to be sure we keep a system that rewards hard work, innovation and creativity while we help them. 

edit:  I recognize that socialism at it's roots has good intentions.  We all want (or should want) everyone to have shelter, food, medicine, clothing, etc.  The difference comes in what we think is the most effective way to accomplish this.  Socialism taken too far can bring the standard of living of everyone down in an effort to be "fair". 
« Last Edit: January 18, 2021, 02:24:57 PM by ericrugiero »

GuitarStv

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Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
« Reply #242 on: January 18, 2021, 02:40:04 PM »
Economic mobility differs geographically
https://www.huduser.gov/portal/pdredge/pdr_edge_featd_article_071414.html

"do not just “move up” but also generally “move out.” "
so move https://inequality.stanford.edu/sites/default/files/SOTU_2015_economic-mobility.pdf


Again:
"a huge swath of people in the U.S. have been left behind is because our politics written by race, written by regionalism long before Trump, has made us have the weakest welfare state and the weakest worker protections in the world for a rich country. And so, go across the border of Canada, go across the Atlantic to any Western European country, go the other direction to Australia or Singapore or Japan and workers have not been left behind as much."
https://ritholtz.com/2020/11/transcript-adam-posen/


It would help to vote for politicians that promote pro-worker policies

As a Canadian, I am repeatedly amazed and disappointed that Americans tend to see "socialism" as a bad thing.  It is not a synonym for "Communism," but helps create a leveler playing field for all people.  When your basic needs are guaranteed (at least more so that in the US), you can focus on making the most of your potential, whatever that may be, which in turn benefits the rest of society.  Everybody wins.  I don't understand how that is so difficult to see, except that there has been generations of brainwashing leading to reflexive fear and rejection of the concept.  Unfortunately, often by those who would benefit the most by it.  But maybe that's the goal of the brainwashing - keep the perks in the hands of a relative few and let the rest suffer.  Which is so short-sighted.  That's exactly the cause of social revolutions, and I fear that one is brewing in the USofA.

I'm one of the Americans who sees "socialism" as bad thing overall.  The USA became a great and successful country because of the opportunity for individuals to start with nothing and work their way up to become a success.  Both immigrants and native born Americans have been successful for hundreds of years through their hard work and perseverance.  This has led to a country which has been widely acknowledged as the economic leader of the world.  It's also the easiest place in the world to FIRE. 

See the definition of socialism below:

Definition of socialism from Meriam Webster:
1 : any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods
2a : a system of society or group living in which there is no private property
2b : a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state
3 : a stage of society in Marxist theory transitional between capitalism and communism and distinguished by unequal distribution of goods and pay according to work done

My problem with socialism is that when the government owns and controls the property, goods and wealth there is a much less direct tie between how good a job someone does or how hard they work and how well they are paid (or rewarded).  This results in much less incentive for individuals to work hard and be successful.  The more each person can see a path to be rewarded for doing constructive things the more a society will flourish. 

Now, I'm not such a hard core capitalist that I don't think we should have some government intervention that could be considered socialism. 
-  Social security is needed in our country because so many people don't save adequately for retirement.  But, most of us won't get nearly what we should from it because the government has mis-managed and raided the funds. 
-  Welfare is needed in our country.  Some people have major challenges and need support. (challenges like poor health, mental illness, extreme lack or privilege, etc)  However, we should set it up so it's designed to be a short term solution as much as possible.  Right now, people are penalized for working and rewarded for having kids who are raised to stay on welfare. 
-  I don't pretend to have the answer for healthcare.  Simplified billing and transparency of costs prior to care would help.  We may still need government intervention.  Our system is clearly broken.  Government run healthcare doesn't seem to be all sunshine and roses either. 

Basically, I want to keep a system where an individual can work hard, "pull themselves up by their bootstraps" and be successful.  Capitalism has a better track record of that than socialism.  I recognize that not everyone has the same starting point and we need to help the underprivileged.  We just need to be sure we keep a system that rewards hard work, innovation and creativity while we help them.

I feel like you're really massively ignoring the socialist things that the government does which made America great.  Some super basic and simple stuff necessary for a society to thrive is socialist.

Public roads are socialist (the government is the only one allowed to build these roads on public land so it's a monopoly).  Traffic laws are socialist.  Hell, all laws are socialist . . . they're a government run monopoly and enforced by a special government run monopoly - police departments.  Fire departments are socialist too.  Public schools are socialist and government owned/run services . . . even though the majority of businesses rely on a steady stream of educated employees.

All environmental protections, all food/safety protections, drug regulations, water regulations - those are socialist government rules, enforced by socialist agencies.  Banning slavery or instituting child labor laws are just a few of many examples of socialist interference in the free market.  Time and again private business with a capitalist motive has proven themselves incapable of providing this sort of necessity for people.

Hell, even banking in the US is socialist at it's roots - the federal reserve is a government run monopoly with the goal of maintaining control the nation's currency.  The means of production and the distribution of goods by the central bank is government owned/run - because every economist knows that a market allowed to run truly free is terrible for a country.

Socialism is bad when it's uncontrolled and unchecked by capitalism - it destroys motivation to work and becomes laden down with inefficiencies.  Capitalism is equally as bad when it's uncontrolled and unchecked by socialism because it concentrates wealth and power into the hands of very few - eventually causing stagnation and revolution.  But socialism vs capitalism is a false dichotomy.  There exist zero successful countries in the world who have got there by following pure capitalism or pure socialism.  Every successful nation in the world has a combination of both.  They work hand in hand and are both equally necessary.

John Galt incarnate!

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Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
« Reply #243 on: January 18, 2021, 05:24:58 PM »



I'm one of the Americans who sees "socialism" as bad thing overall.  The USA became a great and successful country because of the opportunity for individuals to start with nothing and work their way up to become a success.  Both immigrants and native born Americans have been successful for hundreds of years through their hard work and perseverance.  This has led to a country which has been widely acknowledged as the economic leader of the world.  It's also the easiest place in the world to FIRE. 

See the definition of socialism below:

Definition of socialism from Meriam Webster:
1 : any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods
2a : a system of society or group living in which there is no private property
2b : a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state
3 : a stage of society in Marxist theory transitional between capitalism and communism and distinguished by unequal distribution of goods and pay according to work done

My problem with socialism is that when the government owns and controls the property, goods and wealth there is a much less direct tie between how good a job someone does or how hard they work and how well they are paid (or rewarded).  This results in much less incentive for individuals to work hard and be successful.  The more each person can see a path to be rewarded for doing constructive things the more a society will flourish. 

Now, I'm not such a hard core capitalist that I don't think we should have some government intervention that could be considered socialism. 
-  Social security is needed in our country because so many people don't save adequately for retirement.  But, most of us won't get nearly what we should from it because the government has mis-managed and raided the funds. 
-  Welfare is needed in our country.  Some people have major challenges and need support. (challenges like poor health, mental illness, extreme lack or privilege, etc)  However, we should set it up so it's designed to be a short term solution as much as possible.  Right now, people are penalized for working and rewarded for having kids who are raised to stay on welfare. 
-  I don't pretend to have the answer for healthcare.  Simplified billing and transparency of costs prior to care would help.  We may still need government intervention.  Our system is clearly broken.  Government run healthcare doesn't seem to be all sunshine and roses either. 

Basically, I want to keep a system where an individual can work hard, "pull themselves up by their bootstraps" and be successful.  Capitalism has a better track record of that than socialism.  I recognize that not everyone has the same starting point and we need to help the underprivileged.  We just need to be sure we keep a system that rewards hard work, innovation and creativity while we help them. 

edit:  I recognize that socialism at it's roots has good intentions.  We all want (or should want) everyone to have shelter, food, medicine, clothing, etc.  The difference comes in what we think is the most effective way to accomplish this.  Socialism taken too far can bring the standard of living of everyone down in an effort to be "fair".

I agree that America is an optimal nation in which to pursue FIRE.

Socialism homogenizes mediocrity, especially in the public-sector workforce.

Morning Glory

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Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
« Reply #244 on: January 18, 2021, 06:00:23 PM »
Almost 400k dead from Covid now. 500k predicted dead by mid February. Vaccine rollout bungled. Second pandemic of mental health issues rising. Homeless numbers growing. Healthcare workers burned out. No end in sight.

I'm doing my best to stay sane


ericrugiero

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Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
« Reply #245 on: January 20, 2021, 08:44:08 AM »
I feel like you're really massively ignoring the socialist things that the government does which made America great.  Some super basic and simple stuff necessary for a society to thrive is socialist.

Public roads are socialist (the government is the only one allowed to build these roads on public land so it's a monopoly).  Traffic laws are socialist.  Hell, all laws are socialist . . . they're a government run monopoly and enforced by a special government run monopoly - police departments.  Fire departments are socialist too.  Public schools are socialist and government owned/run services . . . even though the majority of businesses rely on a steady stream of educated employees.

All environmental protections, all food/safety protections, drug regulations, water regulations - those are socialist government rules, enforced by socialist agencies.  Banning slavery or instituting child labor laws are just a few of many examples of socialist interference in the free market.  Time and again private business with a capitalist motive has proven themselves incapable of providing this sort of necessity for people.

Hell, even banking in the US is socialist at it's roots - the federal reserve is a government run monopoly with the goal of maintaining control the nation's currency.  The means of production and the distribution of goods by the central bank is government owned/run - because every economist knows that a market allowed to run truly free is terrible for a country.

Socialism is bad when it's uncontrolled and unchecked by capitalism - it destroys motivation to work and becomes laden down with inefficiencies.  Capitalism is equally as bad when it's uncontrolled and unchecked by socialism because it concentrates wealth and power into the hands of very few - eventually causing stagnation and revolution.  But socialism vs capitalism is a false dichotomy.  There exist zero successful countries in the world who have got there by following pure capitalism or pure socialism.  Every successful nation in the world has a combination of both.  They work hand in hand and are both equally necessary.

Sure, the government is involved in lots of things and we need them to provide roads, oversee electric infrastructure, oversee banking, etc.  I'm not at all saying we can have a pure capitalist society with no government oversite.  Some of that oversite is socialism.  But, from my experience, the things the government runs are less efficient than the things that are done in a free market. 

I do not equate banning slavery, child labor or most other laws with socialism.  Anything the government does is not automatically socialism. 

In my opinion, we should have socialistic policies where it's truly needed.  When we have a choice, we should favor capitalism because it rewards hard work and ingenuity which makes for a more successful society. 

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Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
« Reply #246 on: January 20, 2021, 08:53:26 AM »
I feel like you're really massively ignoring the socialist things that the government does which made America great.  Some super basic and simple stuff necessary for a society to thrive is socialist.

Public roads are socialist (the government is the only one allowed to build these roads on public land so it's a monopoly).  Traffic laws are socialist.  Hell, all laws are socialist . . . they're a government run monopoly and enforced by a special government run monopoly - police departments.  Fire departments are socialist too.  Public schools are socialist and government owned/run services . . . even though the majority of businesses rely on a steady stream of educated employees.

All environmental protections, all food/safety protections, drug regulations, water regulations - those are socialist government rules, enforced by socialist agencies.  Banning slavery or instituting child labor laws are just a few of many examples of socialist interference in the free market.  Time and again private business with a capitalist motive has proven themselves incapable of providing this sort of necessity for people.

Hell, even banking in the US is socialist at it's roots - the federal reserve is a government run monopoly with the goal of maintaining control the nation's currency.  The means of production and the distribution of goods by the central bank is government owned/run - because every economist knows that a market allowed to run truly free is terrible for a country.

Socialism is bad when it's uncontrolled and unchecked by capitalism - it destroys motivation to work and becomes laden down with inefficiencies.  Capitalism is equally as bad when it's uncontrolled and unchecked by socialism because it concentrates wealth and power into the hands of very few - eventually causing stagnation and revolution.  But socialism vs capitalism is a false dichotomy.  There exist zero successful countries in the world who have got there by following pure capitalism or pure socialism.  Every successful nation in the world has a combination of both.  They work hand in hand and are both equally necessary.

Sure, the government is involved in lots of things and we need them to provide roads, oversee electric infrastructure, oversee banking, etc.  I'm not at all saying we can have a pure capitalist society with no government oversite.  Some of that oversite is socialism.  But, from my experience, the things the government runs are less efficient than the things that are done in a free market. 

I do not equate banning slavery, child labor or most other laws with socialism.  Anything the government does is not automatically socialism. 

In my opinion, we should have socialistic policies where it's truly needed.  When we have a choice, we should favor capitalism because it rewards hard work and ingenuity which makes for a more successful society.
Efficiency is not the only criterion, or even the most important for many areas of society.

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Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
« Reply #247 on: January 20, 2021, 08:56:59 AM »
Sure, the government is involved in lots of things and we need them to provide roads, oversee electric infrastructure, oversee banking, etc.  I'm not at all saying we can have a pure capitalist society with no government oversite.  Some of that oversite is socialism.  But, from my experience, the things the government runs are less efficient than the things that are done in a free market.

In my opinion, we should have socialistic policies where it's truly needed.  When we have a choice, we should favor capitalism because it rewards hard work and ingenuity which makes for a more successful society.

I feel like there is this myth that has persisted since Reagan that government and public entities do not do a good job and promote mediocrity.  I am constantly amazed by the dysfunction, mediocrity, favoritism and cronyism found in corporations DH and I have found in the last ten years working for large corporations - regardless of industry.  Also, healthcare is a big one where government does a better job than the free market.  Our ACA premiums will be $1,500 a month for three and I don't expect Cobra to be any better. 

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Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
« Reply #248 on: January 20, 2021, 09:13:52 AM »
I feel like you're really massively ignoring the socialist things that the government does which made America great.  Some super basic and simple stuff necessary for a society to thrive is socialist.

Public roads are socialist (the government is the only one allowed to build these roads on public land so it's a monopoly).  Traffic laws are socialist.  Hell, all laws are socialist . . . they're a government run monopoly and enforced by a special government run monopoly - police departments.  Fire departments are socialist too.  Public schools are socialist and government owned/run services . . . even though the majority of businesses rely on a steady stream of educated employees.

All environmental protections, all food/safety protections, drug regulations, water regulations - those are socialist government rules, enforced by socialist agencies.  Banning slavery or instituting child labor laws are just a few of many examples of socialist interference in the free market.  Time and again private business with a capitalist motive has proven themselves incapable of providing this sort of necessity for people.

Hell, even banking in the US is socialist at it's roots - the federal reserve is a government run monopoly with the goal of maintaining control the nation's currency.  The means of production and the distribution of goods by the central bank is government owned/run - because every economist knows that a market allowed to run truly free is terrible for a country.

Socialism is bad when it's uncontrolled and unchecked by capitalism - it destroys motivation to work and becomes laden down with inefficiencies.  Capitalism is equally as bad when it's uncontrolled and unchecked by socialism because it concentrates wealth and power into the hands of very few - eventually causing stagnation and revolution.  But socialism vs capitalism is a false dichotomy.  There exist zero successful countries in the world who have got there by following pure capitalism or pure socialism.  Every successful nation in the world has a combination of both.  They work hand in hand and are both equally necessary.

Sure, the government is involved in lots of things and we need them to provide roads, oversee electric infrastructure, oversee banking, etc.  I'm not at all saying we can have a pure capitalist society with no government oversite.  Some of that oversite is socialism.  But, from my experience, the things the government runs are less efficient than the things that are done in a free market.

This is a problematic argument.  When you say 'efficiency' I think you mean 'cost efficiency/profitability'.  The thing is, many things that the government does aren't done for cost efficiency purposes . . . so that becomes a shit metric to use.

Take the USPS.  Part of the mandate of the USPS is to provide mailing service (within certain standards) to every American for set rates.  This includes remote or small places where for profit companies cannot provide profitable service.  That means that from a purely cost perspective the USPS will be less 'efficient' than UPS or FedEx.  But that's not a failure and an example of 'inefficiency of government', it's by design.

Another example would be the government monopoly of building of public roads on public lands.  They're crucial components of our societies infrastructure.  A tremendous amount of the wealth that little capitalists run around and make is dependent on this infrastructure.  The government doesn't collect anywhere near the cost of building and maintenance through gas and transportation taxes from people for the use of these roads . . . does that make them a failure?

Now if you want to argue that there are government areas of inefficiencies . . . absolutely true.  In some instances there are ways to use the profit motive of capitalism to improve these areas - and I support those where it makes sense to do so.  But you have to realize that the capitalist model of optimizing for short term profit fails society when applied in many instances.



I do not equate banning slavery, child labor or most other laws with socialism.  Anything the government does is not automatically socialism. 

Anything the government does is not automatically socialism - true.  But any time the government exerts control over the means of exchange to prevent the market from operating freely it is a socialist act.  Slavery and child labor are both permitted and allowed in a free market.  The same is true of pollution controls

Collectively we've decided we don't want the market to allow this though, so as a society have decided to prevent capitalists from having the choice.  This is a good thing - but it's certainly not capitalist.  The US had a whole civil war trying to prevent it's southern states from operating their capitalist slavery system.



In my opinion, we should have socialistic policies where it's truly needed.  When we have a choice, we should favor capitalism because it rewards hard work and ingenuity which makes for a more successful society.

It's my opinion that socialism and capitalism should be considered by the merits of their approach.  The choice of which direction to go in shouldn't be a default pre-set . . . it should be based upon what will be the best for society as a whole.  Sometimes that means socialist approach and sometimes that means capitalist.  Assuming that one is always better than the other by default smacks of zealotry.

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Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
« Reply #249 on: January 20, 2021, 09:21:52 AM »
I feel like you're really massively ignoring the socialist things that the government does which made America great.  Some super basic and simple stuff necessary for a society to thrive is socialist.

Public roads are socialist (the government is the only one allowed to build these roads on public land so it's a monopoly).  Traffic laws are socialist.  Hell, all laws are socialist . . . they're a government run monopoly and enforced by a special government run monopoly - police departments.  Fire departments are socialist too.  Public schools are socialist and government owned/run services . . . even though the majority of businesses rely on a steady stream of educated employees.

All environmental protections, all food/safety protections, drug regulations, water regulations - those are socialist government rules, enforced by socialist agencies.  Banning slavery or instituting child labor laws are just a few of many examples of socialist interference in the free market.  Time and again private business with a capitalist motive has proven themselves incapable of providing this sort of necessity for people.

Hell, even banking in the US is socialist at it's roots - the federal reserve is a government run monopoly with the goal of maintaining control the nation's currency.  The means of production and the distribution of goods by the central bank is government owned/run - because every economist knows that a market allowed to run truly free is terrible for a country.

Socialism is bad when it's uncontrolled and unchecked by capitalism - it destroys motivation to work and becomes laden down with inefficiencies.  Capitalism is equally as bad when it's uncontrolled and unchecked by socialism because it concentrates wealth and power into the hands of very few - eventually causing stagnation and revolution.  But socialism vs capitalism is a false dichotomy.  There exist zero successful countries in the world who have got there by following pure capitalism or pure socialism.  Every successful nation in the world has a combination of both.  They work hand in hand and are both equally necessary.

Sure, the government is involved in lots of things and we need them to provide roads, oversee electric infrastructure, oversee banking, etc.  I'm not at all saying we can have a pure capitalist society with no government oversite.  Some of that oversite is socialism.  But, from my experience, the things the government runs are less efficient than the things that are done in a free market. 

I do not equate banning slavery, child labor or most other laws with socialism.  Anything the government does is not automatically socialism. 

In my opinion, we should have socialistic policies where it's truly needed.  When we have a choice, we should favor capitalism because it rewards hard work and ingenuity which makes for a more successful society.

Where is it truly needed and when do we have a choice? I think those distinctions are subjective.

Primary education could be privatized so we do have a choice, in fact they already are to an extent and some people are pushing for them to be more privatized. Would that be more efficient? Same goes for roads and other transportation infrastructure. Really anything could be privatized if you have enough imagination.

And even if some of these aspects of society were more efficient privately owned, efficiency isn't everything. There's also the question of equality and social mobility. An efficient privatized school system for example would serve to further increase inequality. Same for privatized roads.

I think the reality is anything can be socialized and anything can be privatized and there are pros and cons to either choice. We should be able to discuss those pros and cons without demonizing the terminology.

ETA: That's a good way to put it GuitarStv, we should not default to one being better than the other. Every situation is different.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2021, 09:36:16 AM by Davnasty »