American Empire Ending

[PDXTabs]

The military is also a giant government employment program. It provides opportunities for people (usually low income/education people) to enter a stable government job, build some skills, be employed, etc. Once they leave the military they have other opportunities available to them. If you cut military spending those kinds of opportunities need to be created elsewhere. It's not just about policing the world.

That is a great point.  It was my husband's leg up out of poverty and a family/social culture that didn't value education/often didn't even finish high school, remains stuck in poverty and addiction cycles.  He assumed growing up he'd be a blue collar labor or service worker, or a cop. And he was, for a few years, but after the army he wanted to go to college, and ended up with a very successful career in the sciences. It's highly unlikely he would ever have begun to aspire to anything that required a college degree, let alone 3 degrees and a post doc, without the army to boost him out of his socio-cultural circle.

But why spend that money on the military when we could spend it on infrastructure?

[wenchsenior]

The military is also a giant government employment program. It provides opportunities for people (usually low income/education people) to enter a stable government job, build some skills, be employed, etc. Once they leave the military they have other opportunities available to them. If you cut military spending those kinds of opportunities need to be created elsewhere. It's not just about policing the world.

That is a great point.  It was my husband's leg up out of poverty and a family/social culture that didn't value education/often didn't even finish high school, remains stuck in poverty and addiction cycles.  He assumed growing up he'd be a blue collar labor or service worker, or a cop. And he was, for a few years, but after the army he wanted to go to college, and ended up with a very successful career in the sciences. It's highly unlikely he would ever have begun to aspire to anything that required a college degree, let alone 3 degrees and a post doc, without the army to boost him out of his socio-cultural circle.

But why spend that money on the military when we could spend it on infrastructure?

I'm not sure how the money should be most effectively apportioned for long term success and support for our population. However, I'm pretty certain that more infrastructure spending in my husband's home state would not have done anything to put my husband on a path out of poverty to the upper middle class and professional fulfillment and accolades.  I can kind of squint and see how it might have improved his life slightly had he NOT gone into the military and remained lower/middle income, blue collar, so I'm open to hypothetical projections. It's just that I doubt he would have had nearly as good a life overall, had the military not provided an 'escape route'.

[PDXTabs]

I'm not sure how the money should be most effectively apportioned for long term success and support for our population. However, I'm pretty certain that more infrastructure spending in my husband's home state would not have done anything to put my husband on a path out of poverty to the upper middle class and professional fulfillment and accolades.  I can kind of squint and see how it might have improved his life slightly had he NOT gone into the military and remained lower/middle income, blue collar, so I'm open to hypothetical projections. It's just that I doubt he would have had nearly as good a life overall, had the military not provided an 'escape route'.

I assume that you are in reference to the GI Bill, of which I'm a huge fan. But we could re-open the CCC and give everyone who joins it "GI" benefits.

[wenchsenior]

I'm not sure how the money should be most effectively apportioned for long term success and support for our population. However, I'm pretty certain that more infrastructure spending in my husband's home state would not have done anything to put my husband on a path out of poverty to the upper middle class and professional fulfillment and accolades.  I can kind of squint and see how it might have improved his life slightly had he NOT gone into the military and remained lower/middle income, blue collar, so I'm open to hypothetical projections. It's just that I doubt he would have had nearly as good a life overall, had the military not provided an 'escape route'.

I assume that you are in reference to the GI Bill, of which I'm a huge fan. But we could re-open the CCC and give everyone who joins it "GI" benefits.

Not sure why you would assume that.  My husband's experience was long after the GI Bill...there was nothing like that involved. But I agree that we should set up some sort of civil service option with educational support as part of the benefits.

[Michael in ABQ]

The US has always used it's army to protect US interests and political goals.

So what are some recent 'police' actions?

Lists and lists of this stuff can be made going all the way back to WWII.  The US military is at best a corrupt and evil police officer - one who takes bribes for his family, abuses his power, takes prisoners without trial or even cause, often rapes and murders those prisoners, and answers to no-one.

As far as actual police actions?  The fully and ridiculously funded US military didn't do a damned thing when Russia blatantly invaded and annexed the Ukraine.  China is happily building advance military bases all over the place while thumbing their nose while the US military looks on and does nothing.  Historically, it seems that US military response is only really taken when it comes to poorer countries unable to fight back - not big threats.  What worse outcome are you expecting with slightly less military funding?

Please understand that I'm not attacking you personally Michael . . . but the organization you work for condones and rewards crimes against humanity, going out of it's way to protect monsters.  It's hard to get on board with that.

Understood and I'm not going to go line by line to defend or justify every mistake the US military has made in the last couple of decades. Bad things happen during wars and people die. I disagree that we (the US Military) condone and reward crimes against humanity. You've presented a handful of examples over approximately 20 years of war involving literally millions of people across multiple political administrations and representing different generations of leadership. We have made mistakes both individual (the guy who left a base in Afghanistan in the middle of the night to kill civilians) and systemic (condoning the use of torture in the years immediately after 9/11). However, those have also brought about changes in laws, policies, and organizational culture.


We can look at the areas where the US has failed to act, but we'll never now what wars and tragedies never occurred due to the effect of deterrence. Would North Korea have reinvaded South Korea if the US left - turning a thriving democracy into another open-air prison camp? No one can say for sure. We can't see what didn't happen.

[PDXTabs]

I'm not sure how the money should be most effectively apportioned for long term success and support for our population. However, I'm pretty certain that more infrastructure spending in my husband's home state would not have done anything to put my husband on a path out of poverty to the upper middle class and professional fulfillment and accolades.  I can kind of squint and see how it might have improved his life slightly had he NOT gone into the military and remained lower/middle income, blue collar, so I'm open to hypothetical projections. It's just that I doubt he would have had nearly as good a life overall, had the military not provided an 'escape route'.

I assume that you are in reference to the GI Bill, of which I'm a huge fan. But we could re-open the CCC and give everyone who joins it "GI" benefits.

Not sure why you would assume that.  My husband's experience was long after the GI Bill...there was nothing like that involved. But I agree that we should set up some sort of civil service option with educational support as part of the benefits.

Because you didn't elaborate and a lot of people in my family and social circle used GI benefits to go to school.

[GuitarStv]

The US has always used it's army to protect US interests and political goals.

So what are some recent 'police' actions?

Lists and lists of this stuff can be made going all the way back to WWII.  The US military is at best a corrupt and evil police officer - one who takes bribes for his family, abuses his power, takes prisoners without trial or even cause, often rapes and murders those prisoners, and answers to no-one.

As far as actual police actions?  The fully and ridiculously funded US military didn't do a damned thing when Russia blatantly invaded and annexed the Ukraine.  China is happily building advance military bases all over the place while thumbing their nose while the US military looks on and does nothing.  Historically, it seems that US military response is only really taken when it comes to poorer countries unable to fight back - not big threats.  What worse outcome are you expecting with slightly less military funding?

Please understand that I'm not attacking you personally Michael . . . but the organization you work for condones and rewards crimes against humanity, going out of it's way to protect monsters.  It's hard to get on board with that.

Understood and I'm not going to go line by line to defend or justify every mistake the US military has made in the last couple of decades. Bad things happen during wars and people die. I disagree that we (the US Military) condone and reward crimes against humanity. You've presented a handful of examples over approximately 20 years of war involving literally millions of people across multiple political administrations and representing different generations of leadership. We have made mistakes both individual (the guy who left a base in Afghanistan in the middle of the night to kill civilians) and systemic (condoning the use of torture in the years immediately after 9/11). However, those have also brought about changes in laws, policies, and organizational culture.

What lessons were learned by raping prisoners in Abu Grahib?  Well, the lessons learned were that almost nobody involved was charged with committing a crime, and that absolutely nobody in the military chain of command was given responsibility for what they ordered.

What policies were changed by operating the Guantanamo torture facility, filled with abducted people (including children) from around the world, and failing to provide anything resembling due process or a trial?  The place is still being run, the people in it still have no reasonable hope of decent treatment, and they're still being tortured.

What organizational culture has been fixed after supporting child rapists in Afghanistan?  Well, the people who complained about the pedophilia have been ousted from the army.  Problem solved - in a way.

While I admire the blind faith you put in this organization, you must know deep down that what you just wrote is total bullshit.

[MoseyingAlong]

I'm not sure how the money should be most effectively apportioned for long term success and support for our population. However, I'm pretty certain that more infrastructure spending in my husband's home state would not have done anything to put my husband on a path out of poverty to the upper middle class and professional fulfillment and accolades.  I can kind of squint and see how it might have improved his life slightly had he NOT gone into the military and remained lower/middle income, blue collar, so I'm open to hypothetical projections. It's just that I doubt he would have had nearly as good a life overall, had the military not provided an 'escape route'.

I assume that you are in reference to the GI Bill, of which I'm a huge fan. But we could re-open the CCC and give everyone who joins it "GI" benefits.

Not sure why you would assume that.  My husband's experience was long after the GI Bill...there was nothing like that involved. But I agree that we should set up some sort of civil service option with educational support as part of the benefits.

Because you didn't elaborate and a lot of people in my family and social circle used GI benefits to go to school.

While I think the GI Bill is a great benefit, I think the bigger impact is getting people away from their usual.
They meet people from different places and ways of life, they don't have their hometown reputation to help or hinder. They might end up doing something they never even thought of. It was an eye-opening experience for me. And the main reason I often encourage people to seriously consider at least one term of service. I wish there was a civilian equivalent.

[Just Joe]

I assume that you are in reference to the GI Bill, of which I'm a huge fan. But we could re-open the CCC and give everyone who joins it "GI" benefits.

For me the GI Bill was good for me but so was the enlisted experience. Lots of growing up. Lots of redefining what "hard" is. The money helped me pay for college but the challenge helped me want to work hard for my dreams. Also, good to get out of my parents' home.

I agree on a civilian equivalent. A CCC org would be good. Lots of work needs to be done.

[wenchsenior]

I'm not sure how the money should be most effectively apportioned for long term success and support for our population. However, I'm pretty certain that more infrastructure spending in my husband's home state would not have done anything to put my husband on a path out of poverty to the upper middle class and professional fulfillment and accolades.  I can kind of squint and see how it might have improved his life slightly had he NOT gone into the military and remained lower/middle income, blue collar, so I'm open to hypothetical projections. It's just that I doubt he would have had nearly as good a life overall, had the military not provided an 'escape route'.

I assume that you are in reference to the GI Bill, of which I'm a huge fan. But we could re-open the CCC and give everyone who joins it "GI" benefits.

Not sure why you would assume that.  My husband's experience was long after the GI Bill...there was nothing like that involved. But I agree that we should set up some sort of civil service option with educational support as part of the benefits.

Because you didn't elaborate and a lot of people in my family and social circle used GI benefits to go to school.

Oh, interesting.  I thought my Silent Gen and older Boomers (my husband is a tail end Boomer) were the last generations to have access to that kind of thing. My husband said there was some small 'match' for possible schooling when he served, but nothing like a GI bill.  He didn't use it...he was paid so little it didn't occur to him that it would add up to anything.  He also never even considered the possibility of college until AFTER all the experiences, gaining maturity and toughness, and getting out and away from his home area that being enlisted and serving provided. It opened up a world of possibilities that he never had considered or begun to believe he could ever achieve.

[PDXTabs]

Oh, interesting.  I thought my Silent Gen and older Boomers (my husband is a tail end Boomer) were the last generations to have access to that kind of thing. My husband said there was some small 'match' for possible schooling when he served, but nothing like a GI bill.  He didn't use it...he was paid so little it didn't occur to him that it would add up to anything.

It continues to get updated:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-9/11_Veterans_Educational_Assistance_Act_of_2008

It put my uncle through college in the 1960s, and then his son AFAIK. I definitely went to school with people using the benefits.

[sixwings]

The US has always used it's army to protect US interests and political goals.

So what are some recent 'police' actions?

Lists and lists of this stuff can be made going all the way back to WWII.  The US military is at best a corrupt and evil police officer - one who takes bribes for his family, abuses his power, takes prisoners without trial or even cause, often rapes and murders those prisoners, and answers to no-one.

As far as actual police actions?  The fully and ridiculously funded US military didn't do a damned thing when Russia blatantly invaded and annexed the Ukraine.  China is happily building advance military bases all over the place while thumbing their nose while the US military looks on and does nothing.  Historically, it seems that US military response is only really taken when it comes to poorer countries unable to fight back - not big threats.  What worse outcome are you expecting with slightly less military funding?

Please understand that I'm not attacking you personally Michael . . . but the organization you work for condones and rewards crimes against humanity, going out of it's way to protect monsters.  It's hard to get on board with that.

Understood and I'm not going to go line by line to defend or justify every mistake the US military has made in the last couple of decades. Bad things happen during wars and people die. I disagree that we (the US Military) condone and reward crimes against humanity. You've presented a handful of examples over approximately 20 years of war involving literally millions of people across multiple political administrations and representing different generations of leadership. We have made mistakes both individual (the guy who left a base in Afghanistan in the middle of the night to kill civilians) and systemic (condoning the use of torture in the years immediately after 9/11). However, those have also brought about changes in laws, policies, and organizational culture.

What lessons were learned by raping prisoners in Abu Grahib?  Well, the lessons learned were that almost nobody involved was charged with committing a crime, and that absolutely nobody in the military chain of command was given responsibility for what they ordered.

What policies were changed by operating the Guantanamo torture facility, filled with abducted people (including children) from around the world, and failing to provide anything resembling due process or a trial?  The place is still being run, the people in it still have no reasonable hope of decent treatment, and they're still being tortured.

What organizational culture has been fixed after supporting child rapists in Afghanistan?  Well, the people who complained about the pedophilia have been ousted from the army.  Problem solved - in a way.

While I admire the blind faith you put in this organization, you must know deep down that what you just wrote is total bullshit.

I'm not going to go down this path too far, but it's hard to argue that generally the US military has not been a force for good over the last 50-70 years. The post-WW2 US military led world has never been so peaceful and has never been so prosperous on a global scale. Yes there are incidents that suck and where the US military screwed up or individual actors did bad things. But like without the US military Russia and the EU would be a constant warzone (as europe always was throughout history), the mid-east would still be a mess, and China would probably be warring in Asia, probably fighting some sort of Japan/Aus/India alliance. In an org that large it's easy to cherry pick specific instances of bad people doing bad things, or people screwing up decisions, as you can with any large org that is responsible for millions of individual actors across the globe.

That said, it's very easy for me to talk about the global scale of war deaths never being lower in history as I'm a white male living in Victoria Canada and not a woman living in Kabul. I would suspect the latter might not find the global peace quite so inspiring. 

[Just Joe]

Oh, interesting.  I thought my Silent Gen and older Boomers (my husband is a tail end Boomer) were the last generations to have access to that kind of thing. My husband said there was some small 'match' for possible schooling when he served, but nothing like a GI bill.  He didn't use it...he was paid so little it didn't occur to him that it would add up to anything.

It continues to get updated:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-9/11_Veterans_Educational_Assistance_Act_of_2008

It put my uncle through college in the 1960s, and then his son AFAIK. I definitely went to school with people using the benefits.

GI Bill also can still help a person get a mortgage. I found civilian options to be more competitive here but I imagine on the coasts it would be a great resource.

The military will also pay for college classes while a person is in the service. However your duty assignment may not be conducive to studying. On the ship i was stationed on we were haze gray and underway alot - more than most (all?) on the east coast at the time. I heard all at one point. No idea for certain. Was far too busy and tired to study much.

Similar with my shore assignment before that. At one point our leadership decided that we'd switch from days to nights to days every week. Always tired during that period. Of course the decision makers didn't have to live the schedule they invented. ;) The rest of the time the schedule there was reasonable although the days were 12+ hours long. I took a couple of classes. A good period to be single. it was hard on marriages and families. Lots of divorces among my coworkers.

Were I to do it all again I would do it again but do alot of things differently. There were some really good memories from back then. Not every day though. Some days were tough. That's life.

[wenchsenior]

Oh, interesting.  I thought my Silent Gen and older Boomers (my husband is a tail end Boomer) were the last generations to have access to that kind of thing. My husband said there was some small 'match' for possible schooling when he served, but nothing like a GI bill.  He didn't use it...he was paid so little it didn't occur to him that it would add up to anything.

It continues to get updated:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-9/11_Veterans_Educational_Assistance_Act_of_2008

It put my uncle through college in the 1960s, and then his son AFAIK. I definitely went to school with people using the benefits.

Good news, indeed!

[pecunia]

Yeh - The GI Bill is a good thing.  It put my dad through college.

You guys want to save the "Empire."  Now, I don't like the idea of an empire.  The Romans had one for a long time and it didn't always work out well for the guys they conquered.  Genghis Khan had one and folks didn't always like it when he and his buds rode into town.  Spanish had a big empire in South America.  It just seems like the next thing you talk about with that empire is people dying in Silver mines and the inquisition thing. 

However, we've got a lot of good things in the USA.  We've got small town value.  We've got mom and apple pie.  We've got people who often help their neighbors.  I think maybe saving the "empire" may be about saving some of these good values.  How are we going to do that?

It gets harder for people to help their neighbors when there are sick and hungry people getting more and more commonplace.  You may not even get to know your neighbors when you are doing the living in the car thing.  So, maybe we've got to fix these issues.

Empires are always based on money.  Guys who did the conquering were all about the treasure that other people had.  Sometimes it was gold.  Sometimes it was slaves.  So, to keep the empire going, you need the money flowing in.  The best way is to make goods and services and have them flow out.  Another really good way is to have spare money that you can borrow out with interest.

Maybe, if we just devalued the dollar, we could save the empire.  Sure, the stuff from China would be more expensive, but it also means our stuff we make will be cheaper for everybody else.  We grow our own food in the US (except bananas and coffee).  We now are the biggest oil producer so can be energy self sufficient.  So, I don't think our standard of living would take a big hit.  However, we would be able to sell all sorts of products to the rest of the world.

China kept their currency low for many years.  These guys take the long term view.  They've had lots of empires with the dynasty thing.  No teacher is better than experience.

https://www.investopedia.com/trading/chinese-devaluation-yuan/

Are the guys in charge already doing this?  They are increasing the money supply.  They are putting more dollars out there so they should be worth less.  Wages are not really rising in the US.  Are they smarter than we give them credit for and are saving the empire?  Let's hope so.  I like mom and apple pie.

You might want to ignore this one and that's OK too.

[Villanelle]

You might consider reading The Lessons Of History by Will and Ariel Durant and The Better Angels Of Our Nature by Steven Pinker. Things aren't as bad as the Guardian, NYT, Wash Post, etc. would have us believe, any more than FOX and Breitbart would have us believe. Doom and gloom just get more clicks. America is in decline, but it's still the best place on earth to live. We also live in the best period in history to live. And everything is getting better. Enjoy life!

Based on what? 

I think the US is a pretty good place to live for a white, middle class or above, healthy person.  But having lived other places (and seen both their flaws and their strengths), I am not sure I think it is "the best".  You throw that out there, and I'm wondering what metric you are using, because we are #1 in almost none of the positive lists. 

[Morning Glory]

You might consider reading The Lessons Of History by Will and Ariel Durant and The Better Angels Of Our Nature by Steven Pinker. Things aren't as bad as the Guardian, NYT, Wash Post, etc. would have us believe, any more than FOX and Breitbart would have us believe. Doom and gloom just get more clicks. America is in decline, but it's still the best place on earth to live. We also live in the best period in history to live. And everything is getting better. Enjoy life!

Based on what? 

I think the US is a pretty good place to live for a white, middle class or above, healthy person.  But having lived other places (and seen both their flaws and their strengths), I am not sure I think it is "the best".  You throw that out there, and I'm wondering what metric you are using, because we are #1 in almost none of the positive lists.

In normal times, the US is a bunch of different places, some good, some bad.  This applies to schools, roads, crime levels, etc. The wealth disparity makes this more pronounced.  On average the US is not as good as many other developed countries on a lot of measures (and even some undeveloped ones when it comes to maternal/infant mortality). Exceptionalism is getting in the way of actually improving things.

[Bloop Bloop Reloaded]

I've lived in the U.S. and I would say that if you are lucky enough to be in the 75th percentile or above for intelligence and 50th percentile or above for health and you live in a blue state, there is no better place to live if you want financial success and a good lifestyle.

For the average person, it's not a great place to live.

[jinga nation]

I've lived in the U.S. and I would say that if you are lucky enough to be in the 75th percentile or above for intelligence and 50th percentile or above for health and you live in a blue state, there is no better place to live if you want financial success and a good lifestyle.

For the average person, it's not a great place to live.

The "average person" has been told by right wing media, I mean Faux News (technically they are an entertainment channel) and its recent spawn, that "'Murica's the greatest nation on earth". So despite all the ratfuckery by the GOP, their followers will suck up the bad and still believe this is part of being the greatest nation.

The US of A is not perfect, it'll always be a few steps forward and back, ad nauseum. By all means, one may leave if they wish if they can have better outcomes elsewhere.

[Villanelle]

I've lived in the U.S. and I would say that if you are lucky enough to be in the 75th percentile or above for intelligence and 50th percentile or above for health and you live in a blue state, there is no better place to live if you want financial success and a good lifestyle.

For the average person, it's not a great place to live.

I currently live in the USA and had spent a majority of my 40+ years doing so, mostly in blue states.  I meet the criteria you lay out, and I'm still not sure I'd agree there is no better place to live.  For me, at least.  What is "better" varies by person, but I'm not sure that even for those in your sub category, the US is definitively "best".

[RetiredAt63]

I can easily think of 3 other great places to live that are "western democracies" - Canada (a bit chilly at times), Australia and New Zealand.  A bit harder to get super rich but a lot easier to be generally OK.  Basically for the same reason - more taxes but universal health care and less expensive good education (Colleges and Universities).

[PDXTabs]

Portugal, Albania, Colombia, Nicaragua, Mexico, Panama, Paraguay, and half of the Caribbean will all happily take FIRE folks with appropriate investments. Those are just off the top my head, I'm sure that there are more.

A few of those aren't exactly countries known for being safe, governmentally stable, and with non-corrupt governments. Somebody leaving a wealthy and safe part of Vermont to live in Nicaragua because they think the US is politically unstable and unsafe may not experience the outcome they were hoping for. Good luck to them though. To each their own.

Fair enough. I just realized that Chile currently has a lower violent crime rate than the USA and visa options for many of the people on this site.

[GuitarStv]

Portugal, Albania, Colombia, Nicaragua, Mexico, Panama, Paraguay, and half of the Caribbean will all happily take FIRE folks with appropriate investments. Those are just off the top my head, I'm sure that there are more.

A few of those aren't exactly countries known for being safe, governmentally stable, and with non-corrupt governments. Somebody leaving a wealthy and safe part of Vermont to live in Nicaragua because they think the US is politically unstable and unsafe may not experience the outcome they were hoping for. Good luck to them though. To each their own.

Fair enough. I just realized that Chile currently has a lower violent crime rate than the USA and visa options for many of the people on this site.

People don't want to live somewhere so cold they called it 'chilly'.

:P

[Christof]

I can easily think of 3 other great places to live that are "western democracies" - Canada (a bit chilly at times), Australia and New Zealand.  A bit harder to get super rich but a lot easier to be generally OK.  Basically for the same reason - more taxes but universal health care and less expensive good education (Colleges and Universities).

Income in Germany is usually lower than in the US for high paying jobs, but I‘m not sure taxes are really higher for everyone. It really depends on your situation. In Germany you might not have to pay social security at all, very little in health insurance and almost nothing in property taxes. VAT (sales tax) and income tax is significantly higher, but only if you live more than a certain number of days in Germany and consume a lot. For comparison, I pay $0 in social security, $2,700 for health insurance (unlimited coverage, $3,000 deductible) and $400 property taxes ($700,000 property value) per year. Yes, my income tax is a lot higher than in the US, VAT not so much, since I‘m not buying as much. You are not going to be rich as easily as in the US, but if you know how to play the game, you might end up paying less here.

[pecunia]

When the American Empire ends, the land will still be here and most of the people will still be here.  What will it be replaced with?  Will it be chopped up?  Will a functioning Democracy take it's place?  People are kind of set on voting for their leaders and most are decent so I can't see it changing too much. 

With far more money being spent by the people in power than they are taking in, the end may be sooner than we think.  We'll see some poor times first until things are made right.

Maybe the military has got an artificial intelligence that'll run things.  It obviously ain't running it now.

It will be time to abandon the 4 percent rule.

[Just Joe]

I just hope we don't fall apart completely before the real adults can take charge.

[John Galt incarnate!]

I've lived in the U.S. and I would say that if you are lucky enough to be in the 75th percentile or above for intelligence and 50th percentile or above for health and you live in a blue state, there is no better place to live if you want financial success and a good lifestyle.

For the average person, it's not a great place to live.

"You know, 95% of life is settled if you're born in America." Mitt Romney

"I'll tell ya, there is—95 percent of life is set up for you if you're born in this country."  Mitt Romney

[sixwings]

I can easily think of 3 other great places to live that are "western democracies" - Canada (a bit chilly at times), Australia and New Zealand.  A bit harder to get super rich but a lot easier to be generally OK.  Basically for the same reason - more taxes but universal health care and less expensive good education (Colleges and Universities).

Income in Germany is usually lower than in the US for high paying jobs, but I‘m not sure taxes are really higher for everyone. It really depends on your situation. In Germany you might not have to pay social security at all, very little in health insurance and almost nothing in property taxes. VAT (sales tax) and income tax is significantly higher, but only if you live more than a certain number of days in Germany and consume a lot. For comparison, I pay $0 in social security, $2,700 for health insurance (unlimited coverage, $3,000 deductible) and $400 property taxes ($700,000 property value) per year. Yes, my income tax is a lot higher than in the US, VAT not so much, since I‘m not buying as much. You are not going to be rich as easily as in the US, but if you know how to play the game, you might end up paying less here.

Yeah income tax isn't often an apples to oranges comparison between countries. It often needs to be something like Canadas income taxes vs America income taxes + health care costs. I would bet America's is actually more expensive over most peoples life times due to the health care costs.

[PDXTabs]

Yeah income tax isn't often an apples to oranges comparison between countries. It often needs to be something like Canadas income taxes vs America income taxes + health care costs. I would bet America's is actually more expensive over most peoples life times due to the health care costs.

It also depends a lot on what state you live in and how much you make. For example, Oregon income taxes are relatively high if you make enough. Almost high enough to be on par with Canada or Scotland once you add in the federal, but the Canadian and Scottish services are way better.

On the other hand Washington doesn't have an income tax.

[Christof]

It also depends a lot on what state you live in and how much you make. For example, Oregon income taxes are relatively high if you make enough. Almost high enough to be on par with Canada or Scotland once you add in the federal, but the Canadian and Scottish services are way better.

On the other hand Washington doesn't have an income tax.

It‘s the opposite for sales tax, though. Oregon has none, Washington has a minimum of 6.5%. Obviously this encourages folks to live in Washington state, like in Vancouver, and shop in Oregon, across the river in Portland. I think you are supposed to pay sales tax, when you buy something in Oregon and bring it home into Washington, but is that even enforced?

[PDXTabs]

It also depends a lot on what state you live in and how much you make. For example, Oregon income taxes are relatively high if you make enough. Almost high enough to be on par with Canada or Scotland once you add in the federal, but the Canadian and Scottish services are way better.

On the other hand Washington doesn't have an income tax.

It‘s the opposite for sales tax, though. Oregon has none, Washington has a minimum of 6.5%. Obviously this encourages folks to live in Washington state, like in Vancouver, and shop in Oregon, across the river in Portland. I think you are supposed to pay sales tax, when you buy something in Oregon and bring it home into Washington, but is that even enforced?

It isn't enforced, but even if it was it is no where as large of a tax burden for the middle or upper classes. The marginal tax rate for OR income taxes for almost everyone in the state is 8.75%, and groceries are not actually taxed in WA.