Author Topic: Rocket Lab (RKLB) - Finally a decent space company that we can invest in?  (Read 175809 times)

AlanStache

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Re: Rocket Lab (RKLB) - Finally a decent space company that we can invest in?
« Reply #750 on: November 13, 2024, 09:45:28 AM »
Any idea if SpinLaunch is still moving forward?  I really liked the concept.  They seemed to get a lot of hate online, like people expected the first outdoor tests to go perfectly.

By 'get a lof of hate', do you mean people pointing out that it doesn't work and their PR is full of shit?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ziGI0i9VbE

(and to be clear; that guy as a massive ahole for other reasons, but he does know physics).

Yeah he is basically unwatchable, skipped forward a bit then stopped it.  Think I saw that video some time ago.  Cool thing about being FIREd is I can not give a duck about him or the topic to bother formulating my thoughts on it.  I am not sure of the economics of it but I dont think the physics are as inherently impossible as his tone make out. 

BicycleB

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Re: Rocket Lab (RKLB) - Finally a decent space company that we can invest in?
« Reply #751 on: November 13, 2024, 11:59:39 AM »
RKLB hit $15, closed at $14.78. Any thoughts?

Wish I'd bought more around $4! And sold less at $9, then $11. Still, this year's earlier purchases & sales seem to have made up for the original losses from making the initial small "play" or "adventure" purchases at $10.80 as a SPAC.

With prices bobbling between $18 and $22 today, sold some more (averaging $20 almost to the penny). Sales today between 1.5% and 2% of financial assets; using $20 as the value, remaining RKLB shares are between 8% and 9% of financial assets. Done selling for now.

It's nice to the see market pricing the company closer to what its long term value seems to be. I can't tell at all though whether today's price is the lowest it'll ever be, or a top for the next year.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2024, 01:08:31 PM by BicycleB »

Herbert Derp

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Re: Rocket Lab (RKLB) - Finally a decent space company that we can invest in?
« Reply #752 on: November 13, 2024, 12:00:04 PM »
Yeah he is basically unwatchable, skipped forward a bit then stopped it.  Think I saw that video some time ago.

I knew this was a Thunderf00t video before I even clicked it. I closed the video as soon as I saw his name. Man, fuck that guy. His Starship livestreams are hilarious to watch, though!

Anyway, I don’t need to endure 18 minutes of Thunderf00t’s pompous drivel to write off SpinLaunch’s business case.

I don’t think SpinLaunch is impossible. I just think that due to the physics involved, it won’t work for any payload that isn’t (1) quite small and (2) an inert block of something that is immune to massive g-forces. So basically it only works to resupply people in orbit with basic necessities like food, water, and clothes.

Unfortunately for SpinLaunch, the market for such a resupply system currently doesn’t exist, and won’t exist for many years to come. And once that market does exist, you could just take that resupply stuff up on Starship or some other large rocket along with other heavy materials that have to get up into orbit anyway and aren’t compatible with SpinLaunch.

So there isn’t much purpose to SpinLaunch in my opinion. They are building something for a niche market that doesn’t currently exist, and which will probably be better served by other, more capable launch systems.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2024, 01:54:28 PM by Herbert Derp »

Scandium

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Re: Rocket Lab (RKLB) - Finally a decent space company that we can invest in?
« Reply #753 on: November 13, 2024, 12:23:31 PM »
Any idea if SpinLaunch is still moving forward?  I really liked the concept.  They seemed to get a lot of hate online, like people expected the first outdoor tests to go perfectly.

By 'get a lof of hate', do you mean people pointing out that it doesn't work and their PR is full of shit?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ziGI0i9VbE

(and to be clear; that guy as a massive ahole for other reasons, but he does know physics).

Yeah he is basically unwatchable, skipped forward a bit then stopped it.  Think I saw that video some time ago.  Cool thing about being FIREd is I can not give a duck about him or the topic to bother formulating my thoughts on it.  I am not sure of the economics of it but I dont think the physics are as inherently impossible as his tone make out.

So you don't care to see if it's possible, but you think it is, based on his tone..? ooookay..?  Pick any other spinlaunch debunk videos then, there are plenty. They did a faked "test" without vacuum, at barely speed of sound, and a projectile that wobble like crazy. Doesn't matter if you think it "could be possible", they haven't done anything close to that, and that was years ago. 

AlanStache

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Re: Rocket Lab (RKLB) - Finally a decent space company that we can invest in?
« Reply #754 on: November 13, 2024, 01:21:53 PM »
...
So you don't care to see if it's possible, but you think it is, based on his tone..? ooookay..?  Pick any other spinlaunch debunk videos then, there are plenty. They did a faked "test" without vacuum, at barely speed of sound, and a projectile that wobble like crazy. Doesn't matter if you think it "could be possible", they haven't done anything close to that, and that was years ago.

This is what I am talking about.  It was the first lager scale test - it did not work perfectly - wow - rarely does anything in aerospace work perfectly the first time.  Yeah they had a break away membrane rather than fast open/close doors for the projectile and were not at full rpm or a higher level of vacuum, crazy how they had the option to not do a full up test with all the tech all at once the first time and the choose to test some parts without others.  Test things in stages, learn what works, iterate?  Would an aircraft first flight be seen as faked if they did not raise and lower the landing gear or kept the flaps in one fixed position? 

He talked about heating in terms of fixed wing aircraft that deal with if for tens of minutes or hours, not single digit seconds.  Put your hand in hot water for 2sec and 20min to see the difference.  According to google some conventional rockets hit mach 25 around max q - wow  how could they ever deal with the heat!  Besides I am going to guess that the Venn diagram of things that can take 10,000g's and get a bit warm for a few minutes in launch has a good deal of overlap. 

I worked with aircraft simulation for +20 years, I have never really like mach, it is mildly useful for somethings.  It does not tell you how fast a thing is going, for that you need the reference speed of sound.  Mach is a ratio that goes to one at some cool parts of The Right Stuff.  Yeah I know aero coef treads get wiggly about around 1 and it is a useful modeling parameter. 

If spin launch were building a conventional rocket and the first time they tried to launch anything it went to 30kft even without a payload and some stabilization imperfections I expect the internet would have been broadly more positive. 

But yes they were building a system for a niche market that probably will not exist for many years and then other options may just be to economically established. 

Herbert Derp

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Re: Rocket Lab (RKLB) - Finally a decent space company that we can invest in?
« Reply #755 on: November 13, 2024, 01:46:35 PM »
massive wtf! Up 38% at open!
Sure earnings were good, but this does seem like a huge overreaction. I'm not planning on selling, still only a relatively small part of my portfolio. Of course regret not getting more at <$10, but there is still risk this could collapse again. I'd almost be surprised if it doesn't see significant drops one or more times before/at/after Neutron launch. They will probably announce an inevitable delay, and stock will drop 20% instantly..

100% agree. To those of you getting FOMO reading this thread, do not buy Rocket Lab right now! The stock is way too hot.

Remember, we are still in early days. Wait for the stock to cool down and then buy. Don’t be like me and jump the gun and end up with a cost basis that is way too high.

If our investment thesis is correct, investing in Rocket Lab in 2024 is similar to investing in Amazon in 2000. The stock is hot and there is a ton of hype. The industry is going to be huge and the company is in a key position to be a future winner. Patient investors stand to reap massive rewards. But it is still going to take years for the real growth to materialize.

Nevertheless, I am fairly confident that we have a winner on our hands with Rocket Lab.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2024, 03:09:43 PM by Herbert Derp »

Herbert Derp

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Re: Rocket Lab (RKLB) - Finally a decent space company that we can invest in?
« Reply #756 on: November 13, 2024, 05:39:01 PM »
Firefly just raised $175M in a private fundraising round:
https://arstechnica.com/space/2024/11/firefly-aerospace-rakes-in-more-cash-as-competitors-struggle-for-footing/

Firefly is probably Rocket Lab’s most serious competitor after SpaceX and Blue Origin. We absolutely need to pay attention to what they are doing. But the fact is, they have yet to build a reliable orbital rocket that launches regularly and rapidly, nor have they had as much success as Rocket Lab in diversifying their business. Everything Firefly does, Rocket Lab does better.

On top of that, Firefly has already went bankrupt once and gone through at least three CEOs. One of their co-founders and primary investors was forced out of the company by the US government for being a Ukrainian. The company is a dumpster fire behind the scenes.

Anyway, it shows. Rocket Lab is currently worth $10B and Firefly is only worth $2B.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2024, 02:08:33 PM by Herbert Derp »

Ethan26

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Re: Rocket Lab (RKLB) - Finally a decent space company that we can invest in?
« Reply #757 on: November 13, 2024, 06:29:11 PM »

100% agree. To those of you getting FOMO reading this thread, do not buy Rocket Lab right now! The stock is way too hot.

Remember, we are still in early days. Wait for the stock to cool down and then buy. Don’t be like me and jump the gun and end up with a cost basis that is way too high.

If our investment thesis is correct, investing in Rocket Lab in 2024 is similar to investing in Amazon in 2000. The stock is hot and there is a ton of hype. The industry is going to be huge and the company is in a key position to be a future winner. Patient investors stand to reap massive rewards. But it is still going to take years for the real growth to materialize.

Nevertheless, I am fairly confident that we have a winner on our hands with Rocket Lab.

Longtime reader, first time poster. Thanks to this thread and your in depth analysis, I’ve been dollar cost averaging since RocketLab went public via the SPAC. My DCA is ~6.50 with ~ 250 shares. This is all fun money but I’ve made 3k (on paper) in my Robin Hood account. So thank you! Only wish I could have put more in before it popped. 

alcon835

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Re: Rocket Lab (RKLB) - Finally a decent space company that we can invest in?
« Reply #758 on: November 14, 2024, 07:46:08 AM »
Agree with the above. RKLB is already down 3% today from yesterday's highs. $20/share is not the new normal, no possible way. People are buying the hype and already folks are trying to sell out.

I've been dollar cost averaging from the SPAC days and have been up for awhile now (buying a ton at $4 is great now but sucked a lot a few years ago). I have no crystal ball, but I think sub $15 maybe even $10 is way more realistic until they have a successful Neutron launch and/or start to show actual profits.

Still, RKLB is exactly where we'd want them to be at this time - and much healthier company than we expected them to be by now in the SPAC days. And I agree that an acquisition of the right company goes a long way for them and their long-term value.

It's a great stock to be in and I'm so glad this thread dropped in the early days. I'm loving being invested in Space and hope to stay invested in RKLB for decades to come.

Herbert Derp

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Re: Rocket Lab (RKLB) - Finally a decent space company that we can invest in?
« Reply #759 on: November 15, 2024, 01:44:41 PM »
ABL Space Systems just threw in the towel. Another Rocket Lab competitor bites the dust.

https://arstechnica.com/space/2024/11/citing-decreasing-launch-opportunities-abl-space-will-pivot-to-missile-defense/

Herbert Derp

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« Last Edit: November 16, 2024, 02:27:18 PM by Herbert Derp »

Herbert Derp

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Re: Rocket Lab (RKLB) - Finally a decent space company that we can invest in?
« Reply #761 on: November 16, 2024, 04:23:07 PM »
By the way, you can listen to the Rocket Lab Q3 2024 conference call here:
https://www.youtube.com/live/KZgF4F6kO2k?t=2166

The transcript is here:
https://www.insidermonkey.com/blog/rocket-lab-usa-inc-nasdaqrklb-q3-2024-earnings-call-transcript-1390232/

Here are my notes:

  • Peter Beck promises again that Rocket Lab is going to build its own rocket constellation. He says all the work they’ve been doing in launch and space systems is leading up to building, launching, operating, and selling space services from a constellation.
  • Revenue is up 55% year over year. Expenses came in at the low end of expectations, slightly below analyst expectations.
  • Backlog now sits at $1.05B. $721M space systems and $326M launch. 50% of backlog projected to convert to revenue within the next 12 months. This backlog does not include the contract for the two Neutron launches, they will be added to next quarter’s backlog.
  • Rocket Lab is currently sitting on $508M in cash and marketable securities. This is more than enough to fund the company and they are continuing to look for opportunities to pursue inorganic growth by acquiring other companies, particularly in the “payload” area.
  • Neutron is on track for a mid-2025 launch. Engine development and launch pad infrastructure buildout are going well. Tanks and fairings are coming together.
  • Rocket Lab signed a contract for two Neutron launches at full price with more contracts to come from the same customer. Peter says the customer is a repeat customer who is building a large constellation and who doesn’t want to do business with their competitor. I am positive that the customer is Amazon, who is a repeat customer because of the large reaction wheel contract that is probably for Kuiper satellites. Furthermore, Amazon does not want to launch Kuiper on SpaceX because SpaceX directly competes with Starlink, so they are seeking contracts with other launch providers like Rocket Lab, ULA, Blue Origin, and ABL. Basically they are desperate for anyone but SpaceX to launch their satellites but will still resort to SpaceX if they have to due to the FCC use it or lose it deadline.
  • Rocket Lab has been selected by NASA for a study on the Mars Sample Return mission and intends to make a very competitive bid on the mission.
  • Frank Klein has been hired as Chief Operations Officer (COO), to help scale Rocket Lab’s manufacturing by applying automotive manufacturing techniques and methodology. Frank has 30 years of experience in auto manufacturing at Daimler, Mercedes Benz, and Rivian. He most recently served as COO at Rivian.
  • Kenneth Possenriede, ex-CFO from Lockheed Martin has joined Rocket Lab’s board to help with the procurement of defense contracts.
  • Rocket Lab has a $100M, zero margin contract inherited from SolAero that is taking some time to flush out of the balance sheet as the the contract is realized. New solar contracts are targeting 30% margins. This should be a big boost to Rocket Lab’s balance sheet once that single bad contract is done.
  • Neutron will be targeting 1, 3, and 5 annual flights for the first 3 years. An analyst on the call pressured Peter that this seems slow and asked why can’t they scale faster. Peter doesn’t think they can scale faster than this, refuses to overpromise, and says Adam Spice asks him “every day” if they can find a way to scale faster. If Rocket Lab can achieve 1, 3, 5 for Neutron, they will beat Falcon 9 which was 2, 0, 2, 3 for its first four years. Honestly, even Starship has been flying a similar cadence. Rocket Lab wants paying customers from the second launch, and doesn’t want to keep launching empty rockets like SpaceX is doing with Starship.
  • Peter is not concerned about the Elon and the Trump administration favoring SpaceX, he thinks that the Trump administration is the most pro-Space administration since the Apollo era, and “when Space wins, Rocket Lab wins.”

Overall, a really great conference call with great financial results and future outlook for the company!
« Last Edit: November 16, 2024, 04:58:21 PM by Herbert Derp »

Herbert Derp

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Re: Rocket Lab (RKLB) - Finally a decent space company that we can invest in?
« Reply #762 on: November 16, 2024, 05:14:56 PM »
The consolidation continues. Lockheed Martin just completed their acquisition of Terran Orbital, one of Rocket Lab’s key space systems competitors:
https://spacenews.com/lockheed-martin-completes-acquisition-of-smallsat-manufacturer-terran-orbital/

Lockheed Martin is an OldSpace company. Not sure how Terran Orbital will thrive under OldSpace leadership. Lockheed Martin bought them at a big discount from their original SPAC price, so not sure they were thriving very much in the first place.

This leaves just York Space Systems and Redwire Corporation as Rocket Lab’s NewSpace pure-play space systems competitors. Personally, I think diversified companies like SpaceX and Rocket Lab that also have a space systems business will have more success than pure-play space systems companies. There is a certain synergy that comes out of also being a launch provider and constellation operator.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2024, 05:24:33 PM by Herbert Derp »

MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: Rocket Lab (RKLB) - Finally a decent space company that we can invest in?
« Reply #763 on: November 17, 2024, 01:06:12 AM »
Another +6%, and RocketLab's valuation becomes $10 billion.  Quite the journey to $19/share.

The same President who created the Space Force will almost certainly provide favorable regulations for RocketLab.  Since the election, the stock has nearly doubled.  Is that excessively optimistic, or are other factors at play?

The December tender offer for SpaceX shares ($250B) represents a +19% increase from the June valuation ($210B).  Meanwhile, $RKLB rose from $4.25/sh to $19.00/sh over the past 6 months (+347%).  It seems like the two companies are receiving different boosts from the market.

Herbert Derp

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Re: Rocket Lab (RKLB) - Finally a decent space company that we can invest in?
« Reply #764 on: November 17, 2024, 01:32:25 AM »
The same President who created the Space Force will almost certainly provide favorable regulations for RocketLab.  Since the election, the stock has nearly doubled.  Is that excessively optimistic, or are other factors at play?

The December tender offer for SpaceX shares ($250B) represents a +19% increase from the June valuation ($210B).  Meanwhile, $RKLB rose from $4.25/sh to $19.00/sh over the past 6 months (+347%).  It seems like the two companies are receiving different boosts from the market.

I think the incoming administration definitely provided a big boost to Rocket Lab stock due to the favorable future regulatory environment and governmental support for Space in general. But there is much more to this story.

I think the market is also realizing that Rocket Lab is the real deal. Their revenues are up 55% year over year, which means Rocket Lab is successfully executing on the plan of rapid revenue growth that they laid out in the investor presentation.

Secondly, it is becoming a lot more clear about who the winners are in this industry, now that Virgin Orbit went bankrupt and liquidated all assets, Astra ran out of money and went private on pennies to the dollar, Relativity has demonstrated they were all hype and are now running out of cash, and ABL has cancelled their launch program. These are all dead or dying zero revenue companies.

In the midst of all this failure, Rocket Lab is seeing 55% revenue growth year over year from diverse sources, sits comfortably on $508M in cash, and Electron is flying more frequently and reliably than ever before. The industry is consolidating into a small group of winners, which have a huge moat around them due to the immense barriers of entry to this industry.

Rocket Lab proving that they can execute is proof that they are one of the few winners in this industry, and the market is reacting accordingly. Since everyone already knew SpaceX was a winner, their valuation didn’t increase as much.

It’s also worth pointing out that Rocket Lab grew their revenue 55% year over year without making any major acquisitions over the last 12 months. At this time last year, Rocket Lab’s year over year revenue growth was inorganic; they were fresh off of an acquisition spree where they bought companies like SolAero. This time around, the year over year revenue growth is all organic growth, which makes a huge difference. It proves that the company can execute. Meanwhile, competitors are proving that they cannot execute.

If you’re looking for an analogy, the market’s treatment of Rocket Lab over the past six months is similar to what happened to Tesla in 2019 when they finally proved they could execute on the Model 3 production ramp.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2024, 03:08:56 AM by Herbert Derp »

Herbert Derp

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Re: Rocket Lab (RKLB) - Finally a decent space company that we can invest in?
« Reply #765 on: November 17, 2024, 03:30:16 AM »
It’s just becoming so clear that almost all of the other NewSpace rocket startups are going to fail.

Some of them are failing so hard that it’s literally a joke. Virgin Galactic’s moronic business plan to launch a handful of rich customers on an expensive amusement park ride reminds me of that scene from Austin Powers.

Sir Peter Beck: With this investment of 10+ years of R&D and hundreds of millions of dollars to create a rocket company, we could make billions! Sir Richard Branson: Why make billions when we could make... millions?

« Last Edit: November 17, 2024, 03:47:30 AM by Herbert Derp »

MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: Rocket Lab (RKLB) - Finally a decent space company that we can invest in?
« Reply #766 on: November 17, 2024, 07:05:13 PM »
I should have broken RocketLab's performance into phases, to calculate gains more precisely:

RocketLab's performance this year up to Nov 1, reaching $11.42/sh owing to its prior success
Post-election boost from Nov 1 to Nov 12, reaching $14.66/sh, a +28% gain 
Quarterly earnings report, Nov 13 to now, reaching $19.00/sh, a +30% gain

It looks like the election and quarterly earnings played roughly equal roles in $RKLB's boost this month.  As to $SPCE, it lost 2/3rds in the past 6 months, and 96% of its stock value in the past 5 years, leaving it with a market cap under $200M.

Blue Origin is still private, with inconsistent information about revenues - maybe billions ($4B? $5B?).  They're rumored to be in talks to acquire a joint venture, which suggests they're doing well enough financially.

Herbert Derp

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Re: Rocket Lab (RKLB) - Finally a decent space company that we can invest in?
« Reply #767 on: November 17, 2024, 10:45:24 PM »
As to $SPCE, it lost 2/3rds in the past 6 months, and 96% of its stock value in the past 5 years, leaving it with a market cap under $200M.

As of their Q3 2024 earnings, Virgin Galactic has $744M in cash and marketable securities. With a current market cap of $195M, this means that the market values their business at a whopping negative $549M! A bad joke of a company indeed! Why make billions when you can make… millions?

https://investors.virgingalactic.com/news/news-details/2024/Virgin-Galactic-Announces-Third-Quarter-2024-Financial-Results-And-Provides-Business-Update/default.aspx

Blue Origin is still private, with inconsistent information about revenues - maybe billions ($4B? $5B?).  They're rumored to be in talks to acquire a joint venture, which suggests they're doing well enough financially.

I certainly wouldn’t characterize Blue Origin as “doing well enough financially.” Rather, the company has a unique financial situation. They benefit from Jeff Bezos’ infinite money glitch. He sells Amazon stocks to fund Blue Origin with $1B a year in free money. Jeff can easily keep doing this until he dies.

Unfortunately, infinite free money has made Blue Origin become bloated, inefficient, and lazy. A true sloth of a company. It doesn’t help that their company mascot is a turtle. In fact, Blue Origin was founded before SpaceX and has almost no commercial achievements to show for it. They have spent 24 years of R&D and countless billions, and have yet to launch a single thing into orbit.

In comparison, SpaceX and Rocket Lab are lean, efficient, fast-moving companies with proven track records of executing their business plans. If Blue Origin wants to truly compete with SpaceX and Rocket Lab, they need to make drastic changes to their company culture, which is extremely difficult for an organization of their size. In an attempt to fix Blue Orign’s broken culture, Jeff Bezos recently fired OldSpace CEO Bob Smith and replaced him with Dave Limp from Amazon.

Dave Limp was previously SVP of Devices at Amazon, which didn’t exactly have the best track record. The Kindle and Ring Doorbell were moderate successes, but the Fire Phone, Fire Tablet, and Amazon Echo are all considered to be failures. Echo and Alexa in particular had a reputation for being bloated and inefficient organizations that completely failed to produce profitable products. It isn’t even clear to me how a devices executive will succeed in aerospace. At least Bob Smith had a solid aerospace engineering background.

In comparison, Elon Musk and Peter Beck are both aerospace engineering prodigies, and basically serve as chief engineers for their companies. In my opinion, aerospace companies require CEOs with strong aerospace engineering backgrounds in order to be successful.

Despite all of the above, we still have to treat Blue Origin as a serious competitor to Rocket Lab. They have infinite free money and New Glenn development is ahead of Neutron, and will fly soon(ish), almost certainly before Neutron. They are also engaged in all sorts of serious R&D efforts including orbital space stations, lunar landers, and in-situ resource utilization from the Moon.

I wouldn’t be surprised if Blue Origin acquires ULA as well as the Starliner program from Boeing. ULA realizes they are toast and has been trying to sell themselves to another company, and Boeing realizes Starliner is a financial failure and wants nothing to do with it. Blue Origin should be able to salvage something from the corpses of these OldSpace programs.

Especially for Starliner, if Blue Origin acquires it from Boeing then they will be able to compete with SpaceX to send astronauts to the space station.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2024, 01:39:09 AM by Herbert Derp »

Herbert Derp

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Re: Rocket Lab (RKLB) - Finally a decent space company that we can invest in?
« Reply #768 on: November 18, 2024, 03:14:42 AM »
It’s time to revisit my investment thesis. Many things have changed in the industry over the past few years, and the picture is becoming much clearer now.

A railroad to Space is currently being built, in the form of Starship. Starship will enable things that simply were not possible before. Governments will make serious efforts to build human outposts on the Moon and Mars. Large orbital space stations will be constructed, for space tourism and scientific research. Zero-g factories will be constructed in orbit, to enable the manufacturing of exotic materials that can’t be built on Earth. Orbital solar power plants will be built. Orbital propellant depots will be built to enable more efficient travel to other locations in the solar system. Our new railroad to Space will not just enable all of this new infrastructure, but a vast ecosystem of Space products and services to support it.

At the same time, satellites and spacecraft are becoming cheaper and easier to build. Probes to the Moon and Mars can be built and launched at a tiny fraction of previous prices. Countless probes will soon be sent all over the solar system. Extensive satellite constellations are being built for a variety of use cases, from everything from telecommunications to Earth imaging to missile defense. These constellations will not just be built over Earth, they will also be constructed over the Moon and Mars.

The Space economy consists of three layers, stacked on top of each other, with each inner layer enabling the outer layers on top of it.

The first layer is Launch, which consists of rockets that launch payloads into space. Launch is currently approximately a $10B market. Launch is the least valuable market, but also in many ways the most important, because it enables everything else. It is also the most difficult market to enter, because building rockets is really fucking hard. Building a successful orbital rocket requires technical aptitude that is greater than what is required for the other areas of the space industry, which is why almost every Launch company has failed horribly. They just didn’t have the technical acumen.

Furthermore, Launch companies are gatekeepers to the industry. As such, any company that does Launch will have intimate knowledge of the entire industry. They get to put their hands on all the payloads when the payloads are loaded into their rockets. And launch companies don’t just know the payloads, they know the orbital profiles too. They also understand the economics because Launch is such a big component of the cost of putting anything into space, and launch companies are involved in complex cost negotiations with anyone trying to put anything into space. As such, due to their position at the heart of the industry, successful Launch companies are super competent on a technical level, and know everything about the rest of the industry.

The second layer is Space Systems, which consists of satellites and spacecraft, and the sub-components used to build them such as solar panels, thrusters, reaction wheels, and star trackers. Space Systems is currently approximately a $20B market, twice that of launch. This market is much larger and more diverse than launch. The number of satellites being launched is increasing exponentially, and will continue to do so for many years to come. Finally, any company involved in the manufacture of satellites and satellite components has intimate knowledge about the economics of what it takes to build a profitable satellite and sell services from it.

The final layer is Space Services, which is currently a $320B market, a whopping 32 times the size of Launch and 16 times the size of Space Systems. This market encompasses the services which are sold from infrastructure in space. This encompasses businesses such as telecommunications, Earth imaging, and defense systems like hypersonic missile tracking. But you can’t sell services from space without the Space Systems infrastructure to host them, and the Launch services to put that infrastructure into orbit.

A small group of Space companies stand to benefit the most from the future Space economy. These companies are diversified across all three layers of the space industry, rather than concentrated within a single layer. This is because expertise in an inner layer gives synergies and advantages to the outer layers. The most obvious benefit is vertical integration. If you can launch your own satellites, it’s cheaper and more timely than hiring someone else to launch them. If you can build your own satellites, it’s cheaper than hiring someone else to build them. So on and so on.

A company who can put a rocket into orbit and deliver payloads to precise orbital profiles can easily master controlling the flight of satellites in orbit, and the navigation of spacecraft throughout the solar system. Due to the gatekeeper effect, any company involved in Launch has intimate knowledge about the economics of Space Systems and Space Services. And any company involved in Space Systems has even more intimate knowledge about the economics of Space Services, especially if they are a supplier of satellite components across the entire market, and build satellites for various customers. Simply put, a successful Space Systems company has intimate knowledge about how to build successful satellites, and you need successful satellites to offer competitive Space Services.

There is only one successful company who has diversified and vertically integrated across Launch, Space Systems, and Space Services: SpaceX. And there are only two other companies who have a credible chance to join SpaceX: Rocket Lab and Blue Origin. Of these two, only Rocket Lab has built a successful business vertically integrated across Launch and Space Services. Rocket Lab has a credible plan to enter the Space Services market, having succeeded in the previous two layers, it is only a matter of time. Furthermore, Peter Beck has promised repeatedly that Rocket Lab will build, launch, own, and operate their own constellation of satellites and sell Space Services from it, and that all the groundwork Rocket Lab has laid up until now is to prepare for this eventuality.

Blue Origin is very much a work in progress, as they have still yet to launch anything to orbit or launch any significant commercial products. However, Blue Origin has ample financial resources and is positioned for moderate success in the near future across all three layers of the industry. The only other company that even stands a chance of competing with SpaceX, Rocket Lab, and Blue Origin is Firefly Aerospace, but they are so far behind the other three companies.

Rocket Lab further distinguishes itself from Blue Origin because they have an aerospace engineering prodigy CEO who used to literally build rockets in his own backyard, whereas Blue Origin’s CEO was in charge of Kindles at Amazon. Furthermore, Rocket Lab has a strong track record of fiscal discipline, and have executed almost flawlessly despite raising a small fraction of the capital available to SpaceX and Blue Origin, which have almost unlimited capital. Blue Origin is a bloated and wasteful company that has invested vast sums of money into R&D with very little to show for it. Firefly on the other hand has gone bankrupt once already and is on its third CEO.

Next, the barrier to entry for the Space industry is extremely high. The chances of any other company joining SpaceX, Rocket Lab, and Blue Origin is low. Even Firefly has the odds against them. Simply put, building a successful Space company requires many years of R&D and hundreds of millions of dollars in capital. Many companies have tried to do what Rocket Lab does, but they all keep failing. Just look at Virgin Orbit, Astra, ABL, and Relativity if you want some examples. Space is hard!

It is important to point out that SpaceX won’t be a monopoly. Nobody wants a monopoly, not even SpaceX, as it will bring the ire of the government down upon them. Furthermore, Rocket Lab and Blue Origin are ready to raise hell if SpaceX starts behaving in an anticompetitive way. Aerospace companies love to file lawsuits.

Finally, consider the valuation of SpaceX. They are valued at $250B, whereas Rocket Lab is valued at a measly $10B. As SpaceX builds their railway to space and vastly expands the Space economy, I can easily see their valuation going to $1T and Rocket Lab going to $100B, which is a 10x opportunity from where we currently sit. And even then, Rocket Lab would still be worth only 10% of SpaceX. The notion that Rocket Lab needs to “catch up” to SpaceX in order to be successful is absurd. They only have to reach 10% of SpaceX’s valuation to have massive upside as an investment opportunity. If they reach 20% of SpaceX’s valuation, the upside is ludicrous.

Elon haters should relish the opportunity of investing in Rocket Lab. We all know that the incoming Trump administration’s promise to deregulate the space industry will only help both SpaceX and Rocket Lab. Now, imagine if another administration eventually comes into power that is more hostile to Elon Musk. Imagine if Elon Musk gets the Jack Ma treatment from the US government. If just 20% of SpaceX’s business is shifted to Rocket Lab, that represents $50B in value, or a whopping 500% increase from Rocket Lab’s current valuation. So basically, if SpaceX wins, Rocket Lab is going to be raised up with them. And if Elon Musk loses, Rocket Lab is going to benefit even more. This is important!

I can’t stress enough that Rocket Lab has a proven track record when it comes to execution. Electron would have succeeded on its first launch, if not for a software bug outside of Rocket Lab’s control. Rocket Lab was the fastest commercial company in history to reach the milestone of 50 successful orbital launches, beating even SpaceX. Rocket Lab has successfully diversified into Space Systems, with almost 70% of their revenue being Space Systems. Rocket Lab has hundreds of millions of dollars in revenue which is growing organically at a rate of 55% year over year. This is a real company with real execution. Peter Beck says that he wants everything that goes to space to have a Rocket Lab logo on it somewhere, and he isn’t kidding. For example, Rocket Lab currently manufactures about 50% of the solar panels that go into space.

In conclusion, a great railroad is being built to Space. A vast ecosystem of Space infrastructure and services is about to be created. Rocket Lab is in a key position to dominate this new Space economy, and is surrounded by a huge moat to ward off competitors. It seems undervalued compared to its rival SpaceX. And most importantly, it is the only such company that normal people can invest in; SpaceX, Blue Origin, and even Firefly are all private companies. Rocket Lab’s valuation is soaring, and they will use this public currency to continue acquiring smaller aerospace companies up and down the supply chain to further extend their dominance. As we move into the future, the Space industry will only expand in value while consolidating in players, and Rocket Lab is one of the winners of this new Space Race.

So, does my thesis make sense? Anything I missed? Anything you disagree with?
« Last Edit: November 18, 2024, 08:01:12 AM by Herbert Derp »

MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: Rocket Lab (RKLB) - Finally a decent space company that we can invest in?
« Reply #769 on: November 18, 2024, 11:16:54 AM »
I didn't realize how much Blue Origin was propped up by Bezo's wealth.  The main risk they pose is inflating prices of companies that Rocket Lab wants to buy.

Jack Ma became too powerful and vocal for the Chinese Communist Party, of which he is (was?) a member.  The United States doesn't shut down entire industries like China shut down tutoring companies.  So I don't see the pathway where someone's bias shifts business from SpaceX to RocketLab.

The U.S. might one day have a base on the moon, or factories and space stations that you describe.  But that misses a key question: when?  If those things happen 50 years from now, will you still be holding the stock to benefit from it?  You need to consider which of those developments is most likely to happen, and happen while you hold Rocket Lab stock.

There was a long gap from when the U.S. landed on the moon, and anyone returned there.  It seems like a vanity project for countries to prove themselves - and that's just visiting the moon.  I think a moon base happening within a reasonable time frame is the least likely prospect.

Starlink provided modems for people in the aftermath of a hurricane, when roads became impassable.  While people were very happy with the product, those in big cities will probably not like the speed (25 to 100 Mbps) or cost ($120/month plus $349 for equipment).  I'm less clear on which satellite services will grow the most over the next 10 years.
https://www.cnet.com/home/internet/starlink-internet-review/

I personally don't think exotic materials built in space will serve a commercial purpose.  The materials would need to play a vital role in very expensive equipment.  Maybe a semiconductor fab would justify that spending, since they cost billions to build and are no longer cutting edge within a few years.

I'm not aware of scientific advances that came about from the International Space Station.  I'm sure advances were made, and then forgotten by most people.  I think voter support won't be there, for funding another space station.  Most likely, other countries will ask China for permission to do experiments on their space station.

NASA had a (government-run) monopoly on U.S. space travel for decades.  I don't see the antipathy for having one main provider like SpaceX.  People search with Google, visit Facebook and Instagram for social media, and order things from Amazon.  People are pretty comfortable with companies that border on monopolies, so your discussion about not liking monopolies seems like thin ice for Rocket Lab to stand on.  Better would be a niche it fills, that SpaceX doesn't.  Or an area where business is booming to such an extent, Rocket Lab will always get its share of orders.

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Re: Rocket Lab (RKLB) - Finally a decent space company that we can invest in?
« Reply #770 on: November 18, 2024, 04:04:08 PM »
There is a big difference between social media (near) monopolies and ones critical to national defense.  I have been in meetings where military has straight up said they will not buy Boeing or Lockheed as the last aircraft the bought was from them and they need to alternate - in effect.  The dod will not allow a monopoly with getting to space, dod has been burnt on only one supplier existing to many times. 

Space factories: I think I had heard that the initial products would be for medicine, high value, low mass, for as far as for things that would be transported back down to Earth. 

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Re: Rocket Lab (RKLB) - Finally a decent space company that we can invest in?
« Reply #771 on: November 19, 2024, 09:27:03 AM »
There is a big difference between social media (near) monopolies and ones critical to national defense.  I have been in meetings where military has straight up said they will not buy Boeing or Lockheed as the last aircraft the bought was from them and they need to alternate - in effect.  The dod will not allow a monopoly with getting to space, dod has been burnt on only one supplier existing to many times. 

Space factories: I think I had heard that the initial products would be for medicine, high value, low mass, for as far as for things that would be transported back down to Earth.

I agree. But this administration will be historically corrupt and an oligarchy on a level we have never seen before (or at least not since the robber barons). So it's hard to guess what might happen. Elon got his claws into government for one reason; to enrich himself and benefit his companies as much as possible. He could, and I don't doubt would; steer 100% of US space spending to spaceX, and bury competition in regulation, investigations and other delays. Which of course with the high capital spend rate, some simple lawsuits that effectively cause a few years of delay will be the end of any company in this space. So I'm not as optimistic that this admin would be good for RKLB. It could also be the end of it. The hope is that the actually sane people lower down in DOD etc will be enough of a break and argue that having more than a single monopoly company, run  by a certified lunatic, is essential for the US national security. Who wins this fight will decide the fate of RKLB. Trump could in one of his unhinged rants send a tweet at 3 am that spaceX is now NASA, and RLKB shares drop 80%.

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Re: Rocket Lab (RKLB) - Finally a decent space company that we can invest in?
« Reply #772 on: November 19, 2024, 10:17:24 AM »
There is a big difference between social media (near) monopolies and ones critical to national defense.  I have been in meetings where military has straight up said they will not buy Boeing or Lockheed as the last aircraft the bought was from them and they need to alternate - in effect.  The dod will not allow a monopoly with getting to space, dod has been burnt on only one supplier existing to many times. 

Space factories: I think I had heard that the initial products would be for medicine, high value, low mass, for as far as for things that would be transported back down to Earth.

I agree. But this administration will be historically corrupt and an oligarchy on a level we have never seen before (or at least not since the robber barons). So it's hard to guess what might happen. Elon got his claws into government for one reason; to enrich himself and benefit his companies as much as possible. He could, and I don't doubt would; steer 100% of US space spending to spaceX, and bury competition in regulation, investigations and other delays. Which of course with the high capital spend rate, some simple lawsuits that effectively cause a few years of delay will be the end of any company in this space. So I'm not as optimistic that this admin would be good for RKLB. It could also be the end of it. The hope is that the actually sane people lower down in DOD etc will be enough of a break and argue that having more than a single monopoly company, run  by a certified lunatic, is essential for the US national security. Who wins this fight will decide the fate of RKLB. Trump could in one of his unhinged rants send a tweet at 3 am that spaceX is now NASA, and RLKB shares drop 80%.

Fair.  I guess we have to see how far the old "the president is bound to no law" thing goes... If only the dissolution of NASA were the worst possible outcome. 


Herbert Derp

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Re: Rocket Lab (RKLB) - Finally a decent space company that we can invest in?
« Reply #773 on: November 19, 2024, 11:49:30 PM »
Starlink provided modems for people in the aftermath of a hurricane, when roads became impassable.  While people were very happy with the product, those in big cities will probably not like the speed (25 to 100 Mbps) or cost ($120/month plus $349 for equipment).  I'm less clear on which satellite services will grow the most over the next 10 years.
https://www.cnet.com/home/internet/starlink-internet-review/

Amazon and AST SpaceMobile are both in the process of building large telecommunications constellations to rival Starlink.

There are a ton of Earth imaging companies who own constellations. Planet Labs is the biggest one.

The DOD is building a bunch of constellations for military purposes.

That’s just to make a few! And Starship is going to enable things that seem like dreams right now, like commercial space stations and government bases on the Moon. This industry is just getting started.

I personally don't think exotic materials built in space will serve a commercial purpose.  The materials would need to play a vital role in very expensive equipment.  Maybe a semiconductor fab would justify that spending, since they cost billions to build and are no longer cutting edge within a few years.

Varda Space Industries does this. They are manufacturing pharmaceuticals in space. Microgravity manufacturing will become a thing, in my opinion. And Rocket Lab has been building spacecraft for Varda, by the way. This collaboration shows how a company like Rocket Lab can benefit from the growth of the entire industry.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varda_Space_Industries

https://www.space.com/varda-space-microgravity-pharmaceutical-production-success

https://www.rocketlabusa.com/updates/rocket-lab-completes-second-spacecraft-for-varda-space-industries-advancing-in-space-manufacturing/

Jack Ma became too powerful and vocal for the Chinese Communist Party, of which he is (was?) a member.  The United States doesn't shut down entire industries like China shut down tutoring companies.  So I don't see the pathway where someone's bias shifts business from SpaceX to RocketLab.

Elon Musk has become too political, and is overreaching in his pursuit of ever more power in my opinion. I think there is a very real risk for Elon and his companies that he will suffer the same fate of Jack Ma and get smacked down by the government. Especially a future administration which is politically opposed to Elon.

For example, we have already seen the following.

The authors of the Inflation Reduction Act tried to exclude Elon’s companies from receiving tax credits because they are not unionized:
https://www.businessinsider.com/elon-musk-tesla-union-bill-tax-incentive-unionized-ev-makers-2021-9

The FAA tried to keep Starship grounded for two months for frivolous reasons:
https://arstechnica.com/space/2024/09/spacex-says-regulators-will-keep-starship-grounded-until-at-least-november/

California regulators attempted to block Falcon 9 launches due to disagreements with Elon’s politics:
https://www.politico.com/news/2024/10/10/california-reject-musk-spacex-00183371

Elon’s political enemies are calling for the removal of his security clearance:
https://jalopnik.com/its-well-past-time-for-the-u-s-government-to-remove-el-1851650034

The fact is, Elon foolishly went into politics and made a bunch of political enemies. If these enemies return to power, they will come after him and his companies. If this outcome happens, Rocket Lab will be one of the major beneficiaries.

There is a big difference between social media (near) monopolies and ones critical to national defense.  I have been in meetings where military has straight up said they will not buy Boeing or Lockheed as the last aircraft the bought was from them and they need to alternate - in effect.  The dod will not allow a monopoly with getting to space, dod has been burnt on only one supplier existing to many times. 

I agree. But this administration will be historically corrupt and an oligarchy on a level we have never seen before (or at least not since the robber barons). So it's hard to guess what might happen. Elon got his claws into government for one reason; to enrich himself and benefit his companies as much as possible. He could, and I don't doubt would; steer 100% of US space spending to spaceX, and bury competition in regulation, investigations and other delays. Which of course with the high capital spend rate, some simple lawsuits that effectively cause a few years of delay will be the end of any company in this space. So I'm not as optimistic that this admin would be good for RKLB. It could also be the end of it. The hope is that the actually sane people lower down in DOD etc will be enough of a break and argue that having more than a single monopoly company, run  by a certified lunatic, is essential for the US national security. Who wins this fight will decide the fate of RKLB. Trump could in one of his unhinged rants send a tweet at 3 am that spaceX is now NASA, and RLKB shares drop 80%.

This is completely unjustified. Not going to happen. As AlanStache also points out, the US government isn’t so corrupt that they will pick favorites in this manner and intentionally engage in anticompetitive behavior against SpaceX’s competitors. History shows that NASA, the Department of Defense, and federal regulators are strongly opposed to monopolies. Especially NASA and the DOD, because they know monopolies ultimately make the country weaker and run contrary to their organizational goals.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2024, 04:08:21 AM by Herbert Derp »

MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: Rocket Lab (RKLB) - Finally a decent space company that we can invest in?
« Reply #774 on: November 20, 2024, 02:22:28 AM »
I personally don't think exotic materials built in space will serve a commercial purpose.  The materials would need to play a vital role in very expensive equipment.  Maybe a semiconductor fab would justify that spending, since they cost billions to build and are no longer cutting edge within a few years.

Varda Space Industries does this. They are manufacturing pharmaceuticals in space. Microgravity manufacturing will become a thing, in my opinion. And Rocket Lab has been building spacecraft for Varda, by the way. This collaboration shows how a company like Rocket Lab can benefit from the growth of the entire industry.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varda_Space_Industries

https://www.space.com/varda-space-microgravity-pharmaceutical-production-success

https://www.rocketlabusa.com/updates/rocket-lab-completes-second-spacecraft-for-varda-space-industries-advancing-in-space-manufacturing/
Having visited those links, I'm convinced.  Crystals that can't form properly in earth's gravity can be created in zero g.  And one of those is an HIV/AIDS treatment that has already been created in less efficient manners.

President Biden invited every automaker to the White House to discuss the future of EVs... but he excluded Elon Musk (probably, as you mention, because it is non-union).  When Tesla had its HQ in California, Elon Musk feuded with California's governor over Covid restrictions.  I assumed President Biden would be the only one to target Elon Musk, but Gavin Newsom could very well be elected President at some point, and have the same sentiments about Musk.  So it's possible Tesla and SpaceX have "Elon Musk risk" in a future administration.

Herbert Derp

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Re: Rocket Lab (RKLB) - Finally a decent space company that we can invest in?
« Reply #775 on: November 20, 2024, 06:16:39 AM »
When Tesla had its HQ in California, Elon Musk feuded with California's governor over Covid restrictions.  I assumed President Biden would be the only one to target Elon Musk, but Gavin Newsom could very well be elected President at some point, and have the same sentiments about Musk.

That’s not entirely accurate. Gavin Newsom is staunchly pro-business and has generally supported Elon Musk’s activities in California. Newsom even recently sided with Elon when other California officials were trying to block Falcon 9 launches due to political reasons.

During the 2020 lockdown restrictions incident at Elon’s California factory, Newsom lifted the lockdown restrictions for California factories around the same time that other states were sending factory workers back to work.

However, local leftist Alameda county officials overruled Newsom and attempted to block Elon from reopening his factory. At that point, Elon’s factory was the only major automotive factory in the entire United States that was under lockdown restrictions.

Elon defied the Alameda county orders and sent his employees back to work anyway. Presumably, Newsom sided with him behind the scenes because within a day, Alameda county backed down and allowed Elon’s factory to continue operating.

That factory lockdown fiasco is what led to the famous “F*ck Elon Musk.” “Message received” Twitter exchange, which has become symbolic of Elon’s decision to migrate his businesses from California to Texas.

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2020/may/12/elon-musk-tesla-reopening-lockdown-timeline

https://inshorts.com/en/news/california-lawmaker-says-fck-elon-musk-on-his-threat-to-leave-state-he-replies-1589169070616

https://www.politico.com/news/2024/10/18/elon-newsom-musk-california-spacex-00184408
« Last Edit: November 20, 2024, 06:35:32 AM by Herbert Derp »

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Re: Rocket Lab (RKLB) - Finally a decent space company that we can invest in?
« Reply #776 on: November 20, 2024, 10:33:17 AM »
California regulators attempted to block Falcon 9 launches due to disagreements with Elon’s politics:
https://www.politico.com/news/2024/10/10/california-reject-musk-spacex-00183371
I wrongly assumed this included Gavin Newsom.  Newsom isn't on the Musk bandwagon, according to a quote from that article, but he believes SpaceX should be allowed to launch Falcon 9 on the merits (calling balls and strikes).


Elon’s political enemies are calling for the removal of his security clearance:
https://jalopnik.com/its-well-past-time-for-the-u-s-government-to-remove-el-1851650034
That's one journalist writing an opinion piece.  It refers to a Wired article I can't read, but still we're talking journalists giving their opinion.  I would not classify them as "political enemies", when they lack political power.  Political enemies, as I see it, would be Democrats in Congress.  I see this as overblown.

Herbert Derp

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Re: Rocket Lab (RKLB) - Finally a decent space company that we can invest in?
« Reply #777 on: November 20, 2024, 02:44:48 PM »
That's one journalist writing an opinion piece.  It refers to a Wired article I can't read, but still we're talking journalists giving their opinion.  I would not classify them as "political enemies", when they lack political power.  Political enemies, as I see it, would be Democrats in Congress.  I see this as overblown.

That’s a valid point. Democrats in Congress are not demanding that Elon’s security clearance be revoked, they are calling for an “investigation”:
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cy0l3wl76gzo

By the way, I do think journalists have political power. The frivolous two-month Starship launch delay from the FAA was incited by this journalistic hit piece:
https://www.cnbc.com/2024/08/12/spacex-repeatedly-polluted-waters-in-texas-tceq-epa-found.html

It is interesting to note that the FAA’s reasons for the frivolous delays had nothing to do with water pollution, even though they announced the delays immediately following that article.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2024, 02:47:56 PM by Herbert Derp »

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Re: Rocket Lab (RKLB) - Finally a decent space company that we can invest in?
« Reply #778 on: November 21, 2024, 12:52:59 AM »
That's one journalist writing an opinion piece.  It refers to a Wired article I can't read, but still we're talking journalists giving their opinion.  I would not classify them as "political enemies", when they lack political power.  Political enemies, as I see it, would be Democrats in Congress.  I see this as overblown.
By the way, I do think journalists have political power. The frivolous two-month Starship launch delay from the FAA was incited by this journalistic hit piece:
https://www.cnbc.com/2024/08/12/spacex-repeatedly-polluted-waters-in-texas-tceq-epa-found.html

It is interesting to note that the FAA’s reasons for the frivolous delays had nothing to do with water pollution, even though they announced the delays immediately following that article.
The article claims the delay wasn't caused by it:

"In a lengthy post on X, following publication of this story, SpaceX said regulators have told the company that it can continue with launch operations despite the violation notices."

From the article, the issue seems to be compliance with state and federal (environmental) laws:

"Aerospace companies, including SpaceX, generally need to be in compliance with state and federal laws to gain approval from the Federal Aviation Administration for future launches."

Journalists influence public opinion when a story is widespread.  Most individual journalists don't have widespread influence in that manner.  I also think with regard to Elon Musk, he is now a known quantity.  An article attacking him probably won't get as much attention, because people already know what to expect.  But this is speculative on my part - I don't have proof.

Despite that, Elon Musk's next job is to propose massive cuts to the Federal budget.  There's a reason politicians avoid this, and I think he'll suffer a wave of criticism over whatever he proposes.  Blowback on SpaceX could increase over the next few years.  But there's also the prediction that Trump can't share the spotlight, and may kick out Elon Musk (who loves the spotlight) just as he kicked out Bannon.  When people see someone get fired - get their comeuppance - they tend to be more sympathetic.

I think this has a much bigger impact on Tesla, which relies on retail customers, as opposed to SpaceX, which doesn't.

Herbert Derp

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Re: Rocket Lab (RKLB) - Finally a decent space company that we can invest in?
« Reply #779 on: November 21, 2024, 01:46:51 AM »
Yeah, the CNBC article came out in August and then a few weeks later the FAA announced the additional two month delay to Starship. SpaceX protested very vocally and the FAA changed their tune.

Anyway, Elon has gone all in to politics and there is no going back for him. The feuding between Elon and the Democrats is only going to continue to escalate from here. When the Democrats come back into power, they are going to make life very difficult for Elon and his companies.

And if the Democrats can hurt Elon, it will most likely help Rocket Lab.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2024, 01:50:31 AM by Herbert Derp »

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Re: Rocket Lab (RKLB) - Finally a decent space company that we can invest in?
« Reply #780 on: November 21, 2024, 07:38:05 AM »
Good discussion about recent space history and current trajectories. 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_igVSf6tyJs

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Re: Rocket Lab (RKLB) - Finally a decent space company that we can invest in?
« Reply #781 on: November 21, 2024, 10:06:28 AM »
This is completely unjustified. Not going to happen. As AlanStache also points out, the US government isn’t so corrupt that they will pick favorites in this manner and intentionally engage in anticompetitive behavior against SpaceX’s competitors. History shows that NASA, the Department of Defense, and federal regulators are strongly opposed to monopolies. Especially NASA and the DOD, because they know monopolies ultimately make the country weaker and run contrary to their organizational goals.

You seem to have a very naive view of the this extremely corrupt administration. I suggest you take a look at the recent appointments to various cabinet posts.. Not just the top level leaders, they are clearly aiming to install pliant stooges to the lower levels as well. As they learned in trump 1.0, these lower level bureaucrats are the ones who can muck up their plans by simply refusing to carry it out (as you point out). Project 2025 clearly identified this, and has plans to avoid that mistake again. Anyone standing in the way of for example an Elon-monopoly can be fired.

Sure, the "US government isn’t so corrupt that they will pick favorites" ... yet. You can't cite "history", when this is a historical anomaly when it comes to oligarchical power and corruption. 

And these people don't care if they "make the country weaker" as long as they can enrich themselves, their buddies, and punish the "wrong people". In their mind that's probably the same as making it stronger. A fox news (weekend!) host as sec def, chosen simply because he's ranted against DEI and want to remove women (and probably gay people) from the military? That's a person who's opposed to monopoly because it's "bad for the country", lol yeah right.. Not holding my breath.

BicycleB

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Re: Rocket Lab (RKLB) - Finally a decent space company that we can invest in?
« Reply #782 on: November 21, 2024, 10:54:51 AM »
I'm guessing that:

1. The civil servants/ long time procurement leaders within NASA and DOD will do what they can to preserve both competitors (SpaceX, RKLB) but there will times when the political administration overrules them.
2. The stock price for RKLB will reflect some of the political administration's decisions quickly even though the practical effects would take longer
3. At some point the market will mark down RKLB after realizing the possibility of Musk competitively influencing the US govt against RKLB
4. At some point Trump will fire or de-emphasize Musk to keep the spotlight on himself; after that, the market will mark up RKLB and mark down SpaceX
5. Of course, the cycle could then reverse.

My best guess is that 3 is followed by 4, but when would it be even if correct? Weeks for 3 and months for 4, or months for 3 and years for 4? Who knows?
(ETA: After re-reading the description upthread that the Trump administration is the "most pro-space" and Peter Beck's confidence, maybe these guesses are silly anyway.)

With RKLB jumping again today, sold a few shares at $21.6x and offered a few more on limit order at just over $22.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2024, 03:32:36 PM by BicycleB »

Herbert Derp

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Re: Rocket Lab (RKLB) - Finally a decent space company that we can invest in?
« Reply #783 on: November 21, 2024, 04:13:44 PM »
(ETA: After re-reading the description upthread that the Trump administration is the "most pro-space" and Peter Beck's confidence, maybe these guesses are silly anyway.)

Yeah, I am not cynical like Scandium. I’m optimistic like Peter Beck. The Trump administration will be one of the most pro-Space administrations since the Apollo era. Trump created the US Space Force. He loves Elon’s rockets and talks about them all the time. He is a huge supporter of Artemis and wants to send the US back to the Moon. As Peter says, “when Space wins, Rocket Lab wins.”

Also, now that Trump is back, I hope we can get Jim Bridenstine back as NASA administrator. Say what you will about Trump and Jim’s political views, but Jim Bridenstine was the best NASA administrator in my lifetime. Jim had a vision, and he got stuff done. Bill Nelson is so bleh.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2024, 04:23:37 PM by Herbert Derp »

Herbert Derp

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Re: Rocket Lab (RKLB) - Finally a decent space company that we can invest in?
« Reply #784 on: November 25, 2024, 09:33:52 PM »
Electron is flying more often than ever before, and just launched twice within 24 hours:
https://spacenews.com/rocket-lab-launches-two-electrons-within-24-hours/

That makes 14 Electron launches so far this year, also a record. Previously the record was 10 launches in 2023.

RKLB stock reached over $25 today, closing at $24.06. I never expected such a rapid increase, and am positive there will be a correction once the market realizes how slow moving and prone to delay the space industry is.

Herbert Derp

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Re: Rocket Lab (RKLB) - Finally a decent space company that we can invest in?
« Reply #785 on: November 26, 2024, 02:19:32 AM »
Here’s the latest example of Democrats going after Elon Musk’s companies:
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/california-pledges-ev-buyer-rebate-152405490.html

California Democrats are considering a new state EV tax credit which intentionally excludes Tesla and funnels money directly to their competitors. Imagine the benefit to Rocket Lab if the Democrats start targeting SpaceX like this!

And if you’re looking for another example of Democratic corruption against SpaceX, under the Biden administration, the FCC denied SpaceX $885M in Starlink subsidies from the $20B Rural Digital Opportunity Fund, which is supposed to subsidize rural broadband access.

https://techcrunch.com/2023/12/12/fcc-issues-final-denial-of-885m-starlink-subsidy/

These subsidies were denied despite Starlink being one of the only rural broadband providers which actually works, whereas the other telecommunications companies have done what amounts to nothing in comparison. A very clear case of governmental waste and corruption if you ask me.

Luckily, the Trump administration is going to put an end to this madness, at least as far as rural broadband subsidies go. I suspect they will either award SpaceX the subsidies they qualify for, or cancel the entire program and save the US taxpayer some money.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2024, 04:04:10 AM by Herbert Derp »

Herbert Derp

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Re: Rocket Lab (RKLB) - Finally a decent space company that we can invest in?
« Reply #786 on: November 26, 2024, 03:14:23 AM »
There is some great Rocket Lab Space Systems news to report! Rocket Lab just got $23.9M in free money from the CHIPS act to boost manufacturing capacity of solar panels. Rocket Lab already manufactures about half of all solar panels that go to space, so boosting this business is another step in the right direction for them!

https://www.rocketlabusa.com/updates/rocket-lab-signs-23-9m-chips-incentives-award-to-boost-semiconductor-manufacturing-2/

Also, there are no news articles about this but Rocket Lab is developing an in-house Hall thruster. Search Google for “rocket lab ion thruster” and you’ll find a ton of job postings.

Hall thrusters are a critical Space Systems satellite component used to slowly and efficiently reposition satellites using electricity and a small amount of inert propellant. For example, SpaceX uses Hall thrusters to raise their Starlink satellites into their target orbits. This is the same technology that Astra acquired from Apollo Fusion for $50M.

It is great that Rocket Lab is able to develop the technology organically in-house, rather than through acquisitions, and it shows how Rocket Lab is strategically positioned to be a major player in Space Systems. Rocket Lab doesn’t just have the cash to acquire suppliers, they also have the technical capability to become their own supplier, like SpaceX did before them.

Rocket Lab is building out a vertically integrated Space Systems business that goes up and down the Space Systems supply chain, and Hall thrusters are just another piece of that pie. One of Peter Beck’s mottos is that “everything that goes to space should have a Rocket Lab logo on it,” and this is another example of the truth behind that motto.

« Last Edit: November 26, 2024, 03:34:58 AM by Herbert Derp »

Herbert Derp

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Re: Rocket Lab (RKLB) - Finally a decent space company that we can invest in?
« Reply #787 on: November 29, 2024, 01:26:47 PM »
RKLB hit an all-time high of $27.28 today. We are in uncharted territory. I’m not selling a single share, even though I fully expect the share price to crash in the near future. The trouble is, I thought we were due for a big correction at $10, and then at $15, and certainly at $20, now the price is $27. The correction is coming, but when?

In any case, my long term price target remains at $200. There are only three broadly diversified space companies that matter: SpaceX, Blue Origin, and Rocket Lab. SpaceX is worth $250B and has the potential to become a $1T company if they execute on their Starship vision of a fleet of hundreds of ships launching multiple times a day.

If SpaceX becomes a $1T company then I don’t see why Rocket Lab can’t be uplifted with them and become a $100B company, which takes their share price to $200.

A railroad to space is being built right now, that is going to bring an almost unfathomable amount of stuff into space in the near future. And Rocket Lab’s motto is everything that goes to space should have a Rocket Lab logo on it.

By the way, does anyone think we’re due for a capital raise? Rocket Lab could literally raise a billion dollars right now and it would only dilute their share price by 7%. This would make any financial problems disappear into thin air. Other space startups can only dream of this. But despite how tempting a capital raise might be, Rocket Lab has plenty of cash to execute their vision and remains fiscally disciplined, so I’m not sure they actually need to raise capital in the first place. It’s just so tempting at these valuations, that I can’t stop thinking they will go for it.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2024, 03:58:01 PM by Herbert Derp »

time is money

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Re: Rocket Lab (RKLB) - Finally a decent space company that we can invest in?
« Reply #788 on: December 02, 2024, 09:42:19 AM »
And here is ~9% pull back. Not sure if that’s the correction, most likely no. Not selling any further shares at these levels. My RKLB investment is pretty much de-risked now and I am planning to sell my next tranche at 50$/share. That’s Rocket Lab valuation around $25B. I completely agree with @Herbert Derp that this is a $100B company in the making. What’s absolutely scary to realize is that it could reach those valuation levels quicker than I was initially estimating.

Honestly I wouldn’t mind <10% dilution for $1B+ capital raise at this stage. Knowing how “tight” Peter Beck and Adam Spice run the company they won’t go raising money just because they can.  I wouldn’t be surprised that they are quite confident that Neutron test flight for mid next year is on track and would raise capital after successful test. As at that point surely they will start thinking more about their own constellation which will require $$$.

MSR contract should be announced in the next few weeks. What do people think are the chances of Rocket Lab being awarded the full contract? That would be huge.

PathtoFIRE

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Re: Rocket Lab (RKLB) - Finally a decent space company that we can invest in?
« Reply #789 on: December 02, 2024, 10:52:55 AM »
I've been following along with you @Herbert Derp in this thread since the beginning, and want to thank you for starting it. Feelings aren't worth much, but this company, and the chance to invest in its early years, feels like a once-in-a-decade-or-more opportunity. I'd definitely be curious to hear about any similar opportunities in the future.

This is the only individual stock of any substance that I own, and it's gone from about 2% of my holdings based on cost basis, to nearly 1% during the downturn, to now around 6.5%. I felt very comfortable with my exposure, both not regretting the paper losses early on, but also not adding to my holdings beyond a few shares here or there. I don't have any plans to sell in the near future, or price targets; honestly, the main thing I want to keep an eye on is Peter Beck, for any major shift away from the type of person I'd trust with what is still a bit of a gamble, at least compared to VT.

I think a capital raise could be great, both for the company, and for investors. It could add additional stability to the balance sheet, allow additional acquisitions of companies or technologies to further expansion, and maybe if we're lucky it could spark enough deflation in this current overenthusiastic (IMHO) bubble to allow those of us who want to add more to do so at an additional savings. But I think that, as important as space systems is to the future, they really need to stick the landing on Neutron, and worry a little about the potential for getting distracted at this moment. Yes, they need to keep laying the groundwork for success in steps 2 and 3 as you laid out above, but doing so will be hobbled if they don't have the launch platform to do it from, and have to rely on others.

Herbert Derp

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Re: Rocket Lab (RKLB) - Finally a decent space company that we can invest in?
« Reply #790 on: December 03, 2024, 03:18:41 AM »
SpaceX is in discussions to sell insider shares that could boost the value of the company to around $350B:
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/spacex-discusses-tender-offer-roughly-230920967.html

SpaceX to $1T, Rocket Lab to $100B remains my prediction. Although Rocket Lab is a much smaller company than SpaceX and will almost certainly remain so, it seems to me that Rocket Lab is the better investment. I had the opportunity to invest in SpaceX and I still chose Rocket Lab.

You have to realize that Rocket Lab’s exploding market cap has the potential to turn the company into a sort of money snowball or self-fulfilling prophecy. Higher valuation equals easier to raise funds on the public market. It seems likely that Rocket Lab will permanently solve their money problem if their valuation keeps increasing. They may soon get to a point where it is easier for them to raise $1B than even Blue Origin, assuming Jeff is only willing to supply $1B per year.

The result is that Rocket Lab has the opportunity to join the infinite money club that SpaceX already belongs to. At that point, who can catch them? Aside from SpaceX and Blue Origin, none of Rocket Lab’s competitors can even dream of raising money on this scale.

Yet another reason why it is becoming clearer and clearer that SpaceX, Rocket Lab, and Blue Origin are the only three “full stack” space companies that matter.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2024, 03:35:12 AM by Herbert Derp »

MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: Rocket Lab (RKLB) - Finally a decent space company that we can invest in?
« Reply #791 on: December 03, 2024, 07:07:12 AM »
SpaceX is in discussions to sell insider shares that could boost the value of the company to around $350B:
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/spacex-discusses-tender-offer-roughly-230920967.html
Looks like SpaceX's valuation will increase +67% over the course of 6 months.  That is stunning for a tiny company, let alone one the size of SpaceX.


I had the opportunity to invest in SpaceX and I still chose Rocket Lab.
Can you say anything about that opportunity?  I'm curious if it was available from someone you know, from a broker, or from a hedge fund.

I invested in a hedge fund a few years ago that hid the name of this one investment.  This large, private aerospace company they couldn't name kept pace with SpaceX's valuation.  So I've got a very tiny percent of my NW in SpaceX through a hedge fund.  But I could only invest in a hedge fund because I'm a "qualified investor" per SEC rules.

Herbert Derp

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Re: Rocket Lab (RKLB) - Finally a decent space company that we can invest in?
« Reply #792 on: December 03, 2024, 02:20:31 PM »
Can you say anything about that opportunity?  I'm curious if it was available from someone you know, from a broker, or from a hedge fund.

The opportunity was from a group of “small” investors who pool their funds together in order to participate in SpaceX funding rounds. They have also participated in funding rounds for X and Redwood Materials. I tried to PM you more details but seems you have PMs blocked.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2024, 02:22:09 PM by Herbert Derp »

MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: Rocket Lab (RKLB) - Finally a decent space company that we can invest in?
« Reply #793 on: December 04, 2024, 09:22:18 AM »
Can you say anything about that opportunity?  I'm curious if it was available from someone you know, from a broker, or from a hedge fund.

The opportunity was from a group of “small” investors who pool their funds together in order to participate in SpaceX funding rounds. They have also participated in funding rounds for X and Redwood Materials. I tried to PM you more details but seems you have PMs blocked.

Wow, that's impressive.  Personally, I'm too heavily invested in VC and other hedge funds already, so I don't plan on adding anytime soon.  Actually, at a sudden $350 billion valuation, I would support my hedge fund selling shares (but they won't ask).

In the short term, I expect some of that valuation comes from Musk's position in the next administration, and Trump's glowing comments on SpaceX (and his creation of the "Space Force").  But if Musk steals the spotlight from Trump, he could be gone quite quickly.  If that happens and sours the President on SpaceX, that could benefit Rocket Lab.

Thanks for reaching out - I've added you to my "Buddies list" so you can PM me now.  Personally I prefer others making the choice of which private shares to buy, since I lack expertise.  In VC funds, I've heard a tiny percent of the fund makes all the returns.  Most of the stocks never pay back their investment, which makes diversification vital.

Herbert Derp

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Re: Rocket Lab (RKLB) - Finally a decent space company that we can invest in?
« Reply #794 on: December 04, 2024, 01:57:19 PM »
Sent a PM. These guys have participated in multiple SpaceX funding rounds and will probably continue to do so in the future. It’s the best opportunity for smaller investors like us to invest in SpaceX that I know of.

maizefolk

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Re: Rocket Lab (RKLB) - Finally a decent space company that we can invest in?
« Reply #795 on: December 04, 2024, 02:20:45 PM »
Seeing Isaacman nominated as the next director of NASA is definitely good news for commercial space generally including both Rocket Lab and SpaceX.

https://arstechnica.com/space/2024/12/jared-isaacman-entrepreneur-and-private-astronaut-is-trumps-choice-to-lead-nasa/

Herbert Derp

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Re: Rocket Lab (RKLB) - Finally a decent space company that we can invest in?
« Reply #796 on: December 10, 2024, 04:49:30 PM »
Blue Origin says New Glenn is ready for liftoff, pending regulatory approval:
https://arstechnica.com/space/2024/12/intrigue-swirls-as-blue-origin-races-toward-year-end-deadline-for-new-glenn/

They hope to launch this month! Let’s see if they can pull this off!

Herbert Derp

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Re: Rocket Lab (RKLB) - Finally a decent space company that we can invest in?
« Reply #797 on: December 26, 2024, 07:04:29 PM »
Rocket Lab has launched its 16th and final Electron mission for 2024:
https://www.rocketlabusa.com/updates/rocket-lab-successfully-deploys-satellite-for-synspective-caps-off-year-with-60-increase-in-launches-yoy/

This is up from 10 launches last year, and should be enough launches for Electron to achieve profitability.

Rocket Lab has posted pictures of progress on the Neutron launch pad. Looking good!
https://x.com/RocketLab/status/1868389536558157981?t=M9KWL0wcPv8cDNWRlucfjA

Herbert Derp

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Re: Rocket Lab (RKLB) - Finally a decent space company that we can invest in?
« Reply #798 on: December 28, 2024, 12:20:48 AM »
New Glenn is on the pad! Static fire complete, launch imminent!

Edit: Launch date set for January 5th!

https://arstechnica.com/space/2024/12/blue-origin-hot-fires-new-glenn-rocket-setting-up-a-launch-early-next-year/
« Last Edit: December 29, 2024, 08:37:50 PM by Herbert Derp »

mistymoney

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Re: Rocket Lab (RKLB) - Finally a decent space company that we can invest in?
« Reply #799 on: January 13, 2025, 12:06:33 PM »
SpaceX is in discussions to sell insider shares that could boost the value of the company to around $350B:
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/spacex-discusses-tender-offer-roughly-230920967.html
Looks like SpaceX's valuation will increase +67% over the course of 6 months.  That is stunning for a tiny company, let alone one the size of SpaceX.


I had the opportunity to invest in SpaceX and I still chose Rocket Lab.
Can you say anything about that opportunity?  I'm curious if it was available from someone you know, from a broker, or from a hedge fund.

I invested in a hedge fund a few years ago that hid the name of this one investment.  This large, private aerospace company they couldn't name kept pace with SpaceX's valuation.  So I've got a very tiny percent of my NW in SpaceX through a hedge fund.  But I could only invest in a hedge fund because I'm a "qualified investor" per SEC rules.
What does that mean/entail?