Author Topic: Inflation & Interest Rates: share your data sources, models, and assumptions  (Read 285409 times)

Financial.Velociraptor

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Not sure why the stonk market decided to try to race to new all time highs. 

It's corporate earnings and deleveraged consumers.  Inflation adjust growth keeps surprising to the upside.

FIPurpose

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Well the current fed excuse for raising rates is "Well what if this reduction in inflation is just a fake out?!" Ok so we're just guessing at this point? The Fed is not providing a strong justification for continuing to raise rates at this point. They seem to think that a strong job market necessarily means strong inflation, but this basically means they want to raise the rates so that people lose their jobs.

Wage growth does not necessarily mean inflation if that wage growth is happening mostly on the lower end of wage earners. That wage growth then is displaced by less welfare and a reduction in use in consumer debt. I think the Fed is listening to some very wealthy people who want to use this as a way to discipline labor and keep wages down. All of today's numbers point to rates needing to hold flat. The rate is almost a full point above inflation, and unless the data changes in the future, then continuing to hike during a downtrend has no basis in reality.

MustacheAndaHalf

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Well the current fed excuse for raising rates is "Well what if this reduction in inflation is just a fake out?!"
Let me guess - not a Jerome Powell quote?

FIPurpose

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Well the current fed excuse for raising rates is "Well what if this reduction in inflation is just a fake out?!"
Let me guess - not a Jerome Powell quote?

I'm not finding the quote that I based that off of. I read it maybe a week ago. It basically went along the lines of "We've been fooled before on cooling inflation, and could see a rise in inflation if we're not careful.", but you can find several quotes from Jerome Powell that share that sentiment.

To me it all reads as apologetics for raising interest rates. A lot of "what if's" with little data other than a strong job market. It feels like the Fed is biased to do something rather than nothing, and they don't feel comfortable lowering rates, so they must have to keep raising them.

BicycleB

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Well the current fed excuse for raising rates is "Well what if this reduction in inflation is just a fake out?!" Ok so we're just guessing at this point? The Fed is not providing a strong justification for continuing to raise rates at this point. They seem to think that a strong job market necessarily means strong inflation, but this basically means they want to raise the rates so that people lose their jobs.

Wage growth does not necessarily mean inflation if that wage growth is happening mostly on the lower end of wage earners. That wage growth then is displaced by less welfare and a reduction in use in consumer debt. I think the Fed is listening to some very wealthy people who want to use this as a way to discipline labor and keep wages down. All of today's numbers point to rates needing to hold flat. The rate is almost a full point above inflation, and unless the data changes in the future, then continuing to hike during a downtrend has no basis in reality.

It's been a while since we explicitly referred to the different models discussed early in the thread. But if I recall correctly, Larry Summers suggested one in which inflation would permanently stay down only if the federal funds rate exceeded inflation by a significant amount for some length of time. Something along the lines of needing 5 percent-years of being above, so that any of the following three cases would be adequate:

1 year with FFR 5% > inflation;
2.5 years with FFR 2% > inflation;
5 years with FFR 1% > inflation.

If this model is true, then the reality is that we haven't come close to the amount of overage needed, have we?

I have no idea if this model is true, and afaik it's not a majority Fed view. But in the spirit of the thread title, whether there's a basis for raising rates depends on which model we use.

FIPurpose

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Well the current fed excuse for raising rates is "Well what if this reduction in inflation is just a fake out?!" Ok so we're just guessing at this point? The Fed is not providing a strong justification for continuing to raise rates at this point. They seem to think that a strong job market necessarily means strong inflation, but this basically means they want to raise the rates so that people lose their jobs.

Wage growth does not necessarily mean inflation if that wage growth is happening mostly on the lower end of wage earners. That wage growth then is displaced by less welfare and a reduction in use in consumer debt. I think the Fed is listening to some very wealthy people who want to use this as a way to discipline labor and keep wages down. All of today's numbers point to rates needing to hold flat. The rate is almost a full point above inflation, and unless the data changes in the future, then continuing to hike during a downtrend has no basis in reality.

It's been a while since we explicitly referred to the different models discussed early in the thread. But if I recall correctly, Larry Summers suggested one in which inflation would permanently stay down only if the federal funds rate exceeded inflation by a significant amount for some length of time. Something along the lines of needing 5 percent-years of being above, so that any of the following three cases would be adequate:

1 year with FFR 5% > inflation;
2.5 years with FFR 2% > inflation;
5 years with FFR 1% > inflation.

If this model is true, then the reality is that we haven't come close to the amount of overage needed, have we?

I have no idea if this model is true, and afaik it's not a majority Fed view. But in the spirit of the thread title, whether there's a basis for raising rates depends on which model we use.

I mean Larry Summers is a goon so I wouldn't really trust anything out of his mouth if Jon Stewart can walk circles around him on basic economics.

MustacheAndaHalf

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You mean from this interview, where Jon Stewart cites SF Fed data on inflation, but then states "the stock market assets have gone up 150%"?  That's like 10 years of stock market gains, which seems very unlikely to relate to the 2021-2022 inflation.  Just me?  To be fair, he is a great comedian and that comment was 69 seconds into the video, so the joke could be on me.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tU3rGFyN5uQ&t=69s

Update from Googling: "CEO Pay Has Soared by Nearly 1,500% Since 1978".  Jon Stewart is talking 10 years of market gains and 45 years of CEO pay gains?  In other words, talking about recent inflation data was a ruse, and everything else is digging 10 or 45 years into the past.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2023, 10:59:06 AM by MustacheAndaHalf »

FIPurpose

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You mean from this interview, where Jon Stewart cites SF Fed data on inflation, but then states "the stock market assets have gone up 150%"?  That's like 10 years of stock market gains, which seems very unlikely to relate to the 2021-2022 inflation.  Just me?  To be fair, he is a great comedian and that comment was 69 seconds into the video, so the joke could be on me.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tU3rGFyN5uQ&t=69s

Update from Googling: "CEO Pay Has Soared by Nearly 1,500% Since 1978".  Jon Stewart is talking 10 years of market gains and 45 years of CEO pay gains?  In other words, talking about recent inflation data was a ruse, and everything else is digging 10 or 45 years into the past.

You can download the full data in the SF Fed article. Their data goes back to 1998. It is a consistent theme that supply driven inflation outpaces demand driven inflation pretty consistently. There are even years where supply driven inflation is positive and demand is negative.

CEO pay went out of wack between the 1980 and 2000 and has remained level since 2000, but that's 20 years of a disproportionate sum of money going to CEO's. You have to go back to 1980 in order to see that CEO pay is out of line with worker wages.

And no matter how far back you look at inflation data, the Fed largely ignores the supply-side and beats down the demand side in order to control inflation. And where do the profits of that inequity go? To stocks and execs which is the point Stewart is driving at.

My guess is that Jon looks back 10 years on the stock market because that's around where Larry stopped being an insider in Washington being an advisor to Obama. It could've also been an off the cuff remark. Either way, using different time scales really isn't that bad when talking macro economics. Trends do not all line up exactly on the same time scale.

BicycleB

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Well the current fed excuse for raising rates is "Well what if this reduction in inflation is just a fake out?!" Ok so we're just guessing at this point? The Fed is not providing a strong justification for continuing to raise rates at this point. They seem to think that a strong job market necessarily means strong inflation, but this basically means they want to raise the rates so that people lose their jobs.

Wage growth does not necessarily mean inflation if that wage growth is happening mostly on the lower end of wage earners. That wage growth then is displaced by less welfare and a reduction in use in consumer debt. I think the Fed is listening to some very wealthy people who want to use this as a way to discipline labor and keep wages down. All of today's numbers point to rates needing to hold flat. The rate is almost a full point above inflation, and unless the data changes in the future, then continuing to hike during a downtrend has no basis in reality.

It's been a while since we explicitly referred to the different models discussed early in the thread. But if I recall correctly, Larry Summers suggested one in which inflation would permanently stay down only if the federal funds rate exceeded inflation by a significant amount for some length of time. Something along the lines of needing 5 percent-years of being above, so that any of the following three cases would be adequate:

1 year with FFR 5% > inflation;
2.5 years with FFR 2% > inflation;
5 years with FFR 1% > inflation.

If this model is true, then the reality is that we haven't come close to the amount of overage needed, have we?

I have no idea if this model is true, and afaik it's not a majority Fed view. But in the spirit of the thread title, whether there's a basis for raising rates depends on which model we use.

I mean Larry Summers is a goon so I wouldn't really trust anything out of his mouth if Jon Stewart can walk circles around him on basic economics.

Lol!!!!

Didn't know, will keep in mind. :)

MustacheAndaHalf

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Larry Summers talks of "taking medicine" in the interview, which is a reference to current high levels of inflation, and the topic of this thread so far.  Jon Stewart, and you, both want to shift the conversation to something else, totally unrelated to bringing down current high inflation.  Is that a fair assessment?

FIPurpose

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Larry Summers talks of "taking medicine" in the interview, which is a reference to current high levels of inflation, and the topic of this thread so far.  Jon Stewart, and you, both want to shift the conversation to something else, totally unrelated to bringing down current high inflation.  Is that a fair assessment?

Larry Summers talking about "taking medicine" was in reference to raising interest rates as being the only way to deal with inflation. It goes to the core of Summer's argument that wage growth and low unemployment are the root cause of inflation. The "taking medicine" is that the masses must take job losses in order to manage inflation.

Stewart points to Fed SF data showing that the majority of inflation (for at least the past 20 years) is driven by the supply side, not the demand side so focusing on reducing wages and employment isn't going to meaningfully fix inflation. Meanwhile more and more money is driven into shareholders and execs pockets which is a direct result of companies taking advantage of inflation rates to take on more profits.

FIPurpose

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June PCE numbers in

PCE - 3%
Core PCE - 4.1%

Both of which seem to me to point to the fed's rate raise being unnecessary. And they're still signaling another for the year. But the Fed likely had these estimates when they made their decision which makes it all the more confusing to me.

EscapeVelocity2020

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June PCE numbers in

PCE - 3%
Core PCE - 4.1%

Both of which seem to me to point to the fed's rate raise being unnecessary. And they're still signaling another for the year. But the Fed likely had these estimates when they made their decision which makes it all the more confusing to me.

Most people would think the Fed is doing an excellent job - inflation is cooling but not sufficiently, yet the employment and GDP picture is fantastic, what more could you ask for?

MustacheAndaHalf

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Larry Summers talks of "taking medicine" in the interview, which is a reference to current high levels of inflation, and the topic of this thread so far.  Jon Stewart, and you, both want to shift the conversation to something else, totally unrelated to bringing down current high inflation.  Is that a fair assessment?
Larry Summers talking about "taking medicine" was in reference to raising interest rates as being the only way to deal with inflation. It goes to the core of Summer's argument that wage growth and low unemployment are the root cause of inflation. The "taking medicine" is that the masses must take job losses in order to manage inflation.

Stewart points to Fed SF data showing that the majority of inflation (for at least the past 20 years) is driven by the supply side, not the demand side so focusing on reducing wages and employment isn't going to meaningfully fix inflation. Meanwhile more and more money is driven into shareholders and execs pockets which is a direct result of companies taking advantage of inflation rates to take on more profits.
"current high levels of inflation" (my post) were not caused by "the majority of inflation (for at least the past 20 years" (yours).  Energy prices spiked because Russia invaded Ukraine, which is completely unrelated to "the past 20 years" of inflation.  Like I said, "Jon Stewart, and you, both want to shift the conversation to something else" instead of focusing on "current high levels of inflation".


June PCE numbers in

PCE - 3%
Core PCE - 4.1%

Both of which seem to me to point to the fed's rate raise being unnecessary. And they're still signaling another for the year. But the Fed likely had these estimates when they made their decision which makes it all the more confusing to me.
Personally I value former Treasury Secretary Larry Summer's insight into the economy more than I value yours, but apparently a confused poster calling him a "goon" is all the discussion we needed.

blue_green_sparks

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The economy doesn't exist in a vacuum. I was just thinking how the US seems to be highly contentious at the social and political levels. And now we have the inverted, patient bond market vs the bullish (FOMO, YOLO?) stock market. Par for these confusing times, I guess. 

Zamboni

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I mean Larry Summers is a goon so I wouldn't really trust anything out of his mouth if Jon Stewart can walk circles around him on basic economics.

;-) so true.

I just like to look at all kinds of various graphs all day. The 2/10 yield curve inversion being followed by a stonk market steep spike upwards up has happened before . . . more than once. Much more often than not there is a stonk run up in the 12-18 months after inversion. And when it has happened before, it has soon come back down in very dramatic fashion, but not for awhile as others have pointed out. So, if you saw the writing on the wall and pulled out some profits to have a store of dry powder a month or two ago, definitely don't feel bad about that (yet.) You've gone bearish while the market had a bull rush, but stick to your plan now that you've made the decision.

Remember: Both Bulls and Bears get fat, only the Pigs get slaughtered.

ChpBstrd

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The GSCI is suddenly on a tear. This is worth watching because for the past couple of years, commodity price fluctuations usually predicted the direction of inflation surprises. See some of the earlier posts in this thread to get a sense of the trend. If inflation stops falling at its currently precipitous pace and stalls out with the PCE around 4%, we could see another rate hike this year.

Crude oil is a big driver of the increase. Crude is now about 17% more expensive than a month ago. One could read this as a sign of strong demand, as a factor that will slow economic growth, or as the typical commodity burn-up prior to a recession.

Another factor potentially affecting inflation is the growth in money supply. M2 was up again in June, and was 0.85% higher than in April. The BTFP does not fully explain the $177.3B growth in M2 money supply, as it only lent $115.6B as of the end of June, which should have been offset by QT at $95B per month across those each of the last three reported months.

I'm guessing the increase in M2 came at the expense of M1, as people moved cash out of savings/checking accounts and into small bank CDs and money markets. That could be true if 5% was a psychologically important line that persuaded a wave of people to take action to move their bank account money to interest-bearing vehicles, and/or if the BTFP shored up confidence that bank CDs and MM accounts were essentially risk-free.


Incidentally, a lot of people I know are going on expensive vacations, buying new cars and boats, taking on debts, etc. and local restaurants are full despite massive price increases. Cruise line operator Carnival recently called the bonds it issued during the worst of the pandemic, because they are now filling their boats at much higher prices.

So how does one distinguish a soft landing from a melt-up?

ChpBstrd

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Well that was unexpected, but probably deserved!
Quote
rating agency Fitch late Tuesday lowered the U.S.'s credit rating from AAA to AA+, citing "expected fiscal deterioration" and an "erosion of governance".

It seemed like the June debt ceiling debacle was in the rear view mirror, but Fitch is clearly still thinking about it. By timing their downgrade to a couple of months after the resolution of the debt ceiling, Fitch probably hopes to avoid some of the political retaliation Standard and Poors experienced after 2011, which included expensive investigations by the Justice Dept. 

I doubt stocks will care as much this time as they did in 2011, when the S&P downgrade came three days after the debt ceiling was resolved. There's just no new information here, and we're not in unprecedented territory this time. Institutions are not going to be forced to exit US treasuries, there's not going to be an international exodus, etc. If anything, this downgrade, coming two years after a crisis as it did last time, will evoke memories of the long recovery after 2011 and how lots of people spent those years waiting for the next shoe to drop.

ChpBstrd

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I finally got around to watching JPow's 7/26 press conference. At 35:20, Jeff Cox from CNBC asks Powell if they're not "hiking until inflation hits 2%" then "how close do you need to get" before "you're willing to declare victory."

Powell answered that "The idea that we would keep hiking until inflation hits 2%; it would be a prescription for going way past the target. That's clearly not the appropriate way to think about it." Powell then pointed to Fed forecasts of rate being cut "a year from now" and noted rates are now "at a restrictive level". Powell said a couple of times that rates would need to be moving down at a "sustainable" pace for them to be sure we could switch to a neutral and then stimulative stance. He also said "You'd stop raising long before you got to 2% inflation. And you'd start cutting before you got to 2% inflation too." and "We don't see ourselves getting back to 2% inflation... until 2025 or so".

I found it interesting that:

a) Powell expects the Fed to reverse course and cut rates BEFORE we hit 2% inflation (i.e. next year), and
b) Powell thinks we won't hit 2% until about 2025.

...because PCE has fallen from 5.0% in February to 3.0% in June.

Why would it take another 2 years for PCE to fall the remaining 1% when it has fallen 2% over the past 4 months?

The comments make more sense if we define inflation as Core PCE (queue a moan from the ghost of Arthur Burns). Core PCE has fallen more slowly, at just over 0.5% for the past six months. At that pace it won't hit 2%... until 2025. This plus an earlier comment Powell made about core inflation being predictive of future inflation trends suggests that a Fed pivot hinges on a "sustainable" decline in Core PCE. But Core PCE and PCE can diverge a LOT. What happens when PCE approaches 2% as Core PCE lags far behind?  That's probably where the pivot occurs, based on the comments.

From the comments, JPow seems to expect a policy pivot about a year from now, as both the FOMC and Fed staff forecasts predict, when Core PCE is perhaps 3%. This outcome would reflect the "sustainable" trend JPow says they need to see. But what does the Fed do when Core PCE remains above 3% but regular PCE falls below 2%? We could see such a setup by the end of this year, which might begin a long period of interest rate uncertainty as everyone wonders when the Fed will make the judgement call to pivot. Historically the Fed's hand has been forced by declining economic conditions, so if the economy doesn't deteriorate it'll be the first time since 2021 that the Fed's direction is uncertain.

-----------------

ETA: Later in the press conference (at 44:45), JPow was asked if rate cuts could occur alongside QT. Powell answered "That could happen." and described QT as a "normalization" process independent from rates. Powell said it wouldn't be the case that continuing QT would conflict with a rate cutting policy, because they are two different things.

There you have it: more proof that Powell does not think QE or QT have a strong effect on inflation. That's an amazing conclusion to draw, given the last 3 years of QE and QT being the primary moving parts as inflation whipsawed in their directions.

If my hypothesis is correct that QT/QE is stronger medicine than the Fed's models account for, then this is evidence of a mistake in the making. The Fed seems content to leave QT on autopilot until the Fed's balance sheet is "normalized", whatever that means. They will leave QT running long after the rate hikes have paused, inflation will continue to plummet even after the Fed pivots to neutral, and the Fed won't understand why.

Additionally, Powell's use of "normalization" implies that there is a "normal" interest rate and amount of assets on the Fed's balance sheet. Could someone please tell me what this could possibly mean? Should the Fed's assets growth rate resume the pre-pandemic trend, which would take several more years of QT and money supply shrinkage to achieve? Should interest rates go back to 0.25%, or somewhere close to the 2% targeted inflation rate, or somewhere close to the 1% productivity growth rate? What could possibly be the rationale behind any definition of "normal" if not simply the anchoring on past numbers rather than adjusting to data in reality?
« Last Edit: August 02, 2023, 01:43:26 PM by ChpBstrd »

ChpBstrd

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The next CPI numbers come out Thursday. I'll go out on a limb and predict a reversal from the last few months' trend of rapidly falling CPI due to commodities and real wage growth. However, the forces pushing inflation down are simultaneously getting stronger.

My guess is July CPI will come in at +0.4% and Core CPI will come in at +0.3%.

Disinflationary Reasons:
1) Increasing positive real interest rates. Right now the FFR is 5.25%-5.5% and 12-month CPI is 3%. A spread that big discourages consumption and encourages saving.
2) QT is leading to a falling trend in money supply.

Inflationary Reasons:
1) A sudden and rapid increase in commodities prices in July.
2) Significantly positive real wage growth, which will pressure employers to raise prices and employees to increase spending. E.g. in June, wage growth was 0.4% while CPI growth was 0.2%.


If CPI continues falling fast despite the inflationary reasons, we can expect the savings rate probably increased and commodities could have a lot farther to run. We can also expect that positive real rates > these factors. It's a real-time experiment.

EscapeVelocity2020

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The next CPI numbers come out Thursday. I'll go out on a limb and predict a reversal from the last few months' trend of rapidly falling CPI due to commodities and real wage growth. However, the forces pushing inflation down are simultaneously getting stronger.

My guess is July CPI will come in at +0.4% and Core CPI will come in at +0.3%.

Disinflationary Reasons:
1) Increasing positive real interest rates. Right now the FFR is 5.25%-5.5% and 12-month CPI is 3%. A spread that big discourages consumption and encourages saving.
2) QT is leading to a falling trend in money supply.

Inflationary Reasons:
1) A sudden and rapid increase in commodities prices in July.
2) Significantly positive real wage growth, which will pressure employers to raise prices and employees to increase spending. E.g. in June, wage growth was 0.4% while CPI growth was 0.2%.
...

If CPI continues falling fast despite the inflationary reasons, we can expect the savings rate probably increased and commodities could have a lot farther to run. We can also expect that positive real rates > these factors. It's a real-time experiment.

There is a lot of complacency in the market despite oil steadily climbing this past month...  I think that you are correct about CPI coming in hotter than expected and this could mean that real interest rates aren't as positive as we think.  Anecdotally, I've been doing a lot of airline travel and airports are crowded despite the high ticket prices.  I also think that QT's effect is being muted by government spending.

But even with higher CPI reads, the Fed will likely hold steady in September.  As Chasefish points out in the 'bank dip' thread, 10 year rates cresting above 5.5% will put stress on CRE and banks...  Pretty sure the Fed wants to avoid another bank run/bailout this year, even if it means inflation simmers hotter than their 2% vow.  Speculation will increase that 3% inflation is the new 2%...

Financial.Velociraptor

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We get a really solid data point tomorrow as $38 Billion of 10 year Treasury Notes are to be auctioned on the 10th of August.  For a few days there will be no guess work as to what a "fair" 10 year risk free rate is.

ChpBstrd

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Today the Chicago Fed's National Financial Conditions Index was reported at -0.35, continuing a dramatic drop since March. In historical context, the NFCI is now at levels which have been seen when the next recession would be years away. Plus, the NFCI never breached the threshold zero level, having peaked in October 2022 at 0.0745.

It could be argued we have no signal from the NFCI. This, IMO, is a strong argument in favor of the soft landing hypothesis. With debt markets functioning this smoothly, how could there be a recession on the way?



And if a credit crunch will not be the cause of the recession, will consumers be the cause? Their employment levels are high, debt service to income is historically low, and their wages are now rising faster than inflation. Perhaps consumer spending goes up from here while the high positive real rates and QT keep inflation down?

Last week I moved a small portion of my portfolio into a hedged long position in SPY to offset the risk that I'm wrong about my prediction of a recession starting in Q4 or 2024. Perhaps the yield curve inversion simply reflects confidence that the Fed will have inflation under control within months (I agree), and the recent rebound in money supply reflects the flow of cash out of savings accounts and into broader money supply investments (lots of evidence for that). My put option expires in 2025 and I'm writing far out calls with zero to three days till expiration to slowly pay it off.

We're still only 13 months past the 10y/2y inversion, but the historically most likely timeframe for a recession to start is more like ~16-24 months afterward. The pundits declaring a soft landing has been achieved are premature, but the actual odds of a soft landing occurring seem to be increasing as the NFCI falls, employment remains resilient, banking crises are averted, offices stay just full enough to manage their debts, and inflation maintains a beeline toward 2%. By this time in 2007 we would already have been observing alarmingly higher defaults and if it was 2000 we would have already seen an NFCI signal, plus a couple other warnings such as initial claims exceeding 300k. I'm adjusting to those changing odds as I planned to do 6-10 months ago when I started loading up on short-duration bonds, CDs, and treasuries that mature between July and January. I remain cautious overall though.

ChpBstrd

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My guess is July CPI will come in at +0.4% and Core CPI will come in at +0.3%.
I swung and I missed! Both CPI and Core CPI were +0.2% in July. The effects of higher commodity prices were not enough to offset falling prices for electricity, cars, and medical services. Meanwhile shelter and food away from home were the fastest growing categories, with each having 0.4% increases MoM.
Quote
If CPI continues falling fast despite the inflationary reasons, we can expect the savings rate probably increased and commodities could have a lot farther to run. We can also expect that positive real rates > these factors. It's a real-time experiment.
The take-away lesson, IMO, is this: Rapid commodities increases will not be sufficient to offset the disinflation we're seeing due to QT and >2% real rates. That doesn't mean commodities won't continue to rally; it just means even if they do rally hard that can't stop our disinflation process.

Similarly, all the loans created under the BTFP and the increase in money supply over the past few months were insufficient to offset the effect of highly positive real rates. Remember this in the future when it seems certain that some variable is going to push up inflation.

The CME FedWatch tool changed from an 86% chance of NO rate hike in September to a 90.5% chance.

EscapeVelocity2020

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Yes, that was a pleasant surprise for once, that the inflation read came in cooler than I had anticipated.  Expectations of a further 25 bps increase have dropped across all of the Fed meetings for the rest of this year and 10 year Treasury yields have roughly remained unchanged.  Definitely thinking that this soft landing scenario is coalescing...  What could possibly go wrong???

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Energy prices don't have to rise to spoil disinflation - they could just stop dropping quickly.

Look at Core CPI of 4.7% over the past 12 months.  Core CPI excludes food (4.9%) and energy (-12.5%).  Combining food & Core CPI would leave you in the 4.7% to 4.9% range, which is nowhere near CPI inflation.  The only way you get 3.2% CPI inflation is by adding -12.5% energy inflation.  So CPI of 3.2% is entirely caused by energy inflation.  If energy stops falling rapidly... CPI is going to rise towards Core CPI.
https://www.bls.gov/news.release/pdf/cpi.pdf#page=2

Bartlebooth

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And if a credit crunch will not be the cause of the recession, will consumers be the cause?

I predict that student loan payment resuming (if it ever even happens) will cause some things.  40+ million US adults with student loan debt, and average monthly payment of $400/month.  Huge amount of money that is going to be sucked pretty much directly out of consumer spending.

Financial.Velociraptor

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Yesterday's auction of US Treasury Notes with 10 year duration came in at 3.999%

SEE: https://www.investing.com/economic-calendar/10-year-note-auction-571

marcus_aurelius

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I read only a few responses, so apologies if this answer has already been given. My opinion: we're headed into a protracted deflationary environment with very low interest rates.

Two reasons for the deflation argument:
1) the world population will plateau and decline in a few decades, so aggregate demand will slow down. China has started already.
2) technology is a massive deflationary force. It's already been proven so far, but in the next few decades, the combined effects of AI, faster CPUs/GPUs, and robotics will be transformational.

FIPurpose

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I read only a few responses, so apologies if this answer has already been given. My opinion: we're headed into a protracted deflationary environment with very low interest rates.

Two reasons for the deflation argument:
1) the world population will plateau and decline in a few decades, so aggregate demand will slow down. China has started already.
2) technology is a massive deflationary force. It's already been proven so far, but in the next few decades, the combined effects of AI, faster CPUs/GPUs, and robotics will be transformational.

The lowest estimate I've seen on world population is 9 Billion around 2050. I wouldn't really call something that's still 30 years off at the earliest a factor in the next 10 years of inflation.

marcus_aurelius

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The lowest estimate I've seen on world population is 9 Billion around 2050. I wouldn't really call something that's still 30 years off at the earliest a factor in the next 10 years of inflation.

I argue that population decline, even if decades off, is going to be a factor very soon (and in places like Japan and China, already a factor.) Things like consumption and demand are second derivatives, i.e. they can change faster than the underlying population numbers. Tiny declines now will compound to ever-growing declines later on. Even in India, the total fertility rate, the average number of children a woman will bear during her lifetime, has fallen to 2—below the replacement level of 2.1 for the first time.

dividendman

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The lowest estimate I've seen on world population is 9 Billion around 2050. I wouldn't really call something that's still 30 years off at the earliest a factor in the next 10 years of inflation.

I argue that population decline, even if decades off, is going to be a factor very soon (and in places like Japan and China, already a factor.) Things like consumption and demand are second derivatives, i.e. they can change faster than the underlying population numbers. Tiny declines now will compound to ever-growing declines later on. Even in India, the total fertility rate, the average number of children a woman will bear during her lifetime, has fallen to 2—below the replacement level of 2.1 for the first time.

Predictions are hard - especially about the future.

I remember people a couple of decades ago saying peak oil was imminent and would lead to an economic collapse. I also remember them saying the world would go into a spiral of increasing population and then collapse due to not having food/resources.

It seems the opposite of both of those is what is actually occurring, however, I don't think we can say with any significant degree of certainty what's going to happen with these trends three decades from now.

ChpBstrd

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If the last few years have taught us anything, it’s that the supply of money can be either expanded or contracted very rapidly in response to conditions. A free floating digital yuan might move the needle though.

marcus_aurelius

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Agreed that predictions are hard, especially about the future. Also agree that the money supply can expand or contract very rapidly. Still, the point I'm making is that money supply and governmental policies are local effects bound by time and place, and that the larger story in the next few decades is going to be written by the forces of demographics and technology. The world is increasingly going to look like Japan.

Financial.Velociraptor

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I remember people a couple of decades ago saying peak oil was imminent and would lead to an economic collapse.

This was a very real concern.  Back in a former life I was a budget monkey for an oilfield services business.  In 2006 and 2007, we had all departments prepare 5 and 10 year budgets on the assumption that Peak Oil Supply would be reached in that time frame and prepare for a future of scarce oil.  To the public, the oil companies swore there was plenty of oil, but internally - we were mightily concerned.   We were at the perceived limit of what our technology could do.

Right about that time Williams, Devon, Etc. put together two technologies, Horizontal Drilling, and Hydraulic Fracturing (both were already decades old but never used simultaneously before) and there was a revolution.  Similarly, a radical new geological theory came to fruition about how and where oil is created.  This pointed to, specifically in one case, a region of the Gulf of Mexico.  The first major discovery was with the Deepwater Horizon.  You probably remember the environmental disaster.  But insiders were creaming themselves over reports of "a busted well is blurping out HOW MUCH OIL?!?"  And "without any artificial lift?!?"  A theory was validated and there are lots of deep offshore places the industry is pretty confident that can be drilled more or less conventional for super producers.  Exxon Mobil is betting big on the northern coast of South America, for example. 

MustacheAndaHalf

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The title of the thread suggests people cite sources when they make claims.  Not anymore?

Two reasons for the deflation argument:
1) the world population will plateau and decline in a few decades, so aggregate demand will slow down. China has started already.
Workers making goods (supply / GDP) is shrinking faster than population decline (demand).

"Consequently, the share of working-age people (ages 15-64) in the U.S. population has shrunk, down to 64.9% in 2021, from a peak of 67.3% in 2007."
https://www.prb.org/articles/want-another-perspective-on-the-u-s-labor-shortage-talk-to-a-demographer

EscapeVelocity2020

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The title of the thread suggests people cite sources when they make claims.  Not anymore?
...

That's too much like real work man.  Much more fun to pop up on page 17 of a thread and start off with - "I read only a few responses, so apologies if this answer has already been given. My opinion:" blah blah blah...  LOL

roomtempmayo

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One local anecdote: Pre-Covid we routinely got cold solicitations for work on our house.  Roofers, remodelers, cement guys, you name it.  I could have filled a rolodex with their cards.

Then the pandemic hit, and nothing for three years.  When we wanted work done, it was tough to find anyone at any price.

Last week something of a switch seems to have flipped.  I got three cold solicitations from contractors on Friday alone.

Maybe last week will prove to be an outlier, but the winds seem to be changing around here.

maizefolk

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@Financial.Velociraptor I knew about fracking given how widely it's been discussed since coming online but had not known about the new geological breakthrough associated with the deepwater horizon and how it opened up a whole new set of regions where it made sense to drill for oil. Fascinating. Thank you!

ChpBstrd

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The US economy has remained resilient in 2023 so far, despite rate hikes to a 5.5% upper range for the Federal Funds rate. This resilience is raising questions about whether rate cuts are right around the corner. Markets were assuming rate cuts were right around the corner, as evidenced by the inverted yield curve. I.e. it only makes sense to accept less payment for a longer-duration bond if you think the high yields for short-term stuff are going away. Now bond investors are capitulating, in a sense, and thinking long-term rates won't go back down very much anytime soon.

Per the WSJ, economists are debating whether the neutral rate of inflation - the rate at which policy is neither stimulative nor restrictive, and we see steady growth and inflation - is now structurally higher than it was in the past. Trade policy, demographics, pandemic stimulus, and a less-capital intensive economy are being floated around as reasons why we might need higher real interest rates to keep inflation stable than we needed in the past.

As the economists debate, bond investors are raising their estimates of long-term interest rates. E.g. if the FFR is going to be over 5% for a few more years instead of a few more months, that should raise the yield of the 10-year treasury too! Thus the 10-year yield has gone from 3.3% in early April to 4.34% today. This is one of the reasons mortgage rates are soaring above 7% again, and it's bad news for companies with debts or expansion plans. All other dollar-denominated debts are priced at a premium to the level of US treasuries. 


Months (or maybe a year) ago I said modern recessions have usually started after yield curves like the 10y/2y and the 10y/3mo un-invert. That is, un-inversion of the yield curves was the signal that we were mere months away from the start of the 1990, 2001, 2008, and 2020* recessions. These recessions all occurred 3-7 months after the 10y/3mo flipped positive.


*In 2019, the 10y/3mo flipped from negative to positive, but the 10y/2y only bounced off of zero.

As you can see from the charts, the rise in long-term rates has created a noticeable uptick in the still-deeply-negative yield curves. We're a very long way from the yield curves flattening at zero, but this is the trend to watch. We could potentially be back to zero within 6 months if demand for long-duration continues to slump amid economic optimism. It only took about 7 months (late Oct '22 - early May '23) for the 10y/3mo to go from zero to its recent maximum inversion of -1.88%.

As I said before, if the yield curve un-inverts due to rising long-duration rates, that will be an unusual way to do it. All the other yield curves un-inverted when the Fed started cutting short-duration interest rates. Of course, by then the Fed was too late and policy was far more restrictive than the neutral rate at that time, causing recessions.

TLT has lost 8.5% and ZROZ has lost over 11% the past 3 months, because a 1% increase in long-duration rates is a very big deal when you're working with many years of duration. I avoided the carnage for the most part by hanging out in SGOV with 1-3 month durations. It's fair to ask how high long-duration yields can go before they cause a recession. Can housing prices hold up if mortgages hit 8-9%? Are the banks going deeper into the red on their treasuries and loans? How many corporations are halting their expansion plans or preparing to shrink because their ROA is lower than what they can now borrow at?

I currently think the bond market is overplaying the assumption of longer rates forever, and being a bit impatient with the recession timing. Sure, it makes sense for prices to move incrementally in a direction as time passes and the odds of various outcomes decrease or increase, but 1% in a few months is extreme. First of all, short-duration rates could be cut early next year as inflation gets lower and lower - even before inflation hits 2%. JPow said as much in his August press conference. Second, we could see more precursor signs of recession such as faster-rising initial claims within months. Many recessions start around March as businesses consolidate after the busy Christmas season. I know one business owner, and this is their tentative plan.

I'm becoming more confident about long-duration high-quality bonds with lots of call protection, so I might shop for such opportunities in the next couple of months. It's already possible to lock in in excess of 6% in very safe bonds, which is good actually in a CAPE>30 environment that has never historically had a 10 year total return above 5% annualized. The plan would be to sell these amid the recession and reallocate to stock ETFs.

One thing I definitely don't foresee is a return to high inflation, until possibly after rates are cut and QT is ended. Let's hope I don't eat those words.

EscapeVelocity2020

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I check in on the Fed Watch Tool every now and again.  The chance of another 25 bps hike has begun to climb for the Nov and Dec meetings.  Not quite to 50 - 50 by the end of the year, but certainly a higher probability than you'd expect given how many people are certain that the Fed is done and might even cut early next year.  I would think that the rise in the 10-year yield lately would be doing the work of de facto raises, so I'm baffled.  Guess we'll see what Jerome has to say later this week from Jackson Hole.

FIPurpose

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I noticed this today when I accidentally ended up on the USAA CD Rate website. I usually think USAA has very bad CD Rates, like worse than most banks.

But they currently have 4% 5-year CD's. So if even they are willing to go that high, then something in the market must have shifted to allow them to do that.

Not sure that you can find solid 6% bonds quite yet, but plenty of solid 5.5% options out there. Great choice to buy up instead of paying down my mortgage. (My current rate is 4.25%, so not exactly an obvious choice either way)

ChpBstrd

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The Chicago Fed NFCI plunged again, per numbers released this morning. It is now at -0.40 and falling. This is interpreted as: liquidity is good, markets are functioning well, and credit is flowing.


How quickly can the NFCI turn and start indicating recession? Prior to the GFC, the NFCI hit today's levels in mid-June 2007, amid a rising trend. Prior to 2001, the NFCI bounced around at high levels close to zero, and crossed the zero threshold in October 1998 and June 2000. The NFCI false-alarmed around the 2011 debt ceiling debacle, so one interpretation is that the NFCI only got as high as it did due to the debt ceiling debate of 2023. The other interpretation is that we're probably at least 6 months away from any recession.

Money supply metrics were released yesterday. M1 danced around its declining trend. M2 remained on its slow growth path, which is bullish for inflation and economic growth. Demand deposits have fallen 4.2% since October 2022 as cash flows out of banks and into money market funds (recall that MM funds are included in M2 but not M1).




The mystery then, is how - or IF - banks are doing OK facilitating liquidity if everyone is withdrawing from their accounts to put the money in MM funds? The excess liquidity in MM funds could be tightening the spreads which contribute to calculation of the NFCI. The problem is that money market funds do not directly translate to a particular community bank rolling the financing for a piece of commercial real estate or a particular small business. Sure, overnight debts affect everything, but what does it matter when you are a bank facing deterioration in its ratios?

Levels of bank loans have been mostly flat in 2023, especially since April. It is as if the banking industry is only replacing loans as they mature or are paid off, and not growing their books. Maybe the slowdown in housing volumes has something to do with it, but maybe banks are constrained by falling deposits. This has consequences for the real economy, even if the flight to MM funds has squeezed certain credit spreads tighter and created the illusion of liquidity.



EscapeVelocity2020

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I check in on the Fed Watch Tool every now and again.  The chance of another 25 bps hike has begun to climb for the Nov and Dec meetings.  Not quite to 50 - 50 by the end of the year, but certainly a higher probability than you'd expect given how many people are certain that the Fed is done and might even cut early next year.  I would think that the rise in the 10-year yield lately would be doing the work of de facto raises, so I'm baffled.  Guess we'll see what Jerome has to say later this week from Jackson Hole.

After the Jackson Hole reaffirmation of the 2% inflation goal, the tool is now basically ruling out a Fed rate cut this year and is even assigning a higher probability to a hike than staying flat...  new PCE numbers Thursday as well as wages on Friday!

ChpBstrd

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There are plenty of reasons to expect a "bad" PCE report on Thursday.
  • Commodities rallied hard in July.
  • Retail sales rose to a new record high in July.
  • Initial claims did not rise in July, and were generally lower than June, suggesting consumers were able to spend without inhibition.
  • The majority of economic indicators, including residential sales, construction, retail profits, and more.

The wildcard is the migration of funds from bank accounts to money market funds, which increased M2 at the same time as it decreased M1. One might worry such a move would have impacted consumer spending, but most economic indicators suggest it didn't. The biggest exception is advance durable goods orders, which fell 5.2% compared to June! Could that be related to tighter financing for cars, appliances, equipment, etc?

The Fedwatch Tool now forecasts a 22% chance of a rate hike on Sept. 20, and a 62.3% chance of at least one rate hike by November 1. There's a 57.6% chance rates will be higher at the end of 2023 than they are today.

I suspect the housing market has to capitulate before the rate hikes can stop, because housing is the big thing driving Core PCE right now. JPow mentioned Core PCE over and over again at Jackson Hole, which essentially means he is at war with housing prices given its weight in Core PCE.

The Median House Listing Price has fallen sharply, but notice that the median price per square foot remains elevated. This is consistent with observations elsewhere on this forum about prices remaining elevated, but only the cheaper homes being sold. This suggests the "falling house prices" headlines are reflecting the illusion of only cheaper houses being on the market, and that the cost of shelter isn't actually going down as much as some might expect.

 

MustacheAndaHalf

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I don't have a conclusion in mind, because I haven't figured out what is happening exactly... there's two narratives.  The evidence for a soft landing:

(+) GDP growth is strong, far from recessionary
(+) unemployment of 3.5%
(+) wage increases are getting smaller
(+) core CPI inflation has dropped

And the evidence the economy has unresolved problems:

(-) credit card default rate has climbed to the highest in 30 years
(-) most homeowners refinanced at low rates, and can't afford current rates - they can't move
(-) financial conditions have mostly been loose in 2022-2023 (leftover Covid stimulus, SVB rescue, Fed funds rate vs inflation)
(-) employers put off firing workers

Each of the negative items, to me, reflects delaying the pain.  Consumers put off budgeting, pushing default rates higher when Covid money runs out.  Homeowners put off moving in the hope mortgage rates will fall, while the Fed repeats "higher for longer" Fed funds rates.  The 3.5% unemployment rate makes new hires hard to find, and employers avoid firing anyone because they expect the problems are temporary.  At this point I suspect pain has been delayed, not cured, but I'm still trying to figure it out.

ChpBstrd

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I don't have a conclusion in mind, because I haven't figured out what is happening exactly... there's two narratives.  The evidence for a soft landing:

(+) GDP growth is strong, far from recessionary
(+) unemployment of 3.5%
(+) wage increases are getting smaller
(+) core CPI inflation has dropped

And the evidence the economy has unresolved problems:

(-) credit card default rate has climbed to the highest in 30 years
(-) most homeowners refinanced at low rates, and can't afford current rates - they can't move
(-) financial conditions have mostly been loose in 2022-2023 (leftover Covid stimulus, SVB rescue, Fed funds rate vs inflation)
(-) employers put off firing workers

Each of the negative items, to me, reflects delaying the pain.  Consumers put off budgeting, pushing default rates higher when Covid money runs out.  Homeowners put off moving in the hope mortgage rates will fall, while the Fed repeats "higher for longer" Fed funds rates.  The 3.5% unemployment rate makes new hires hard to find, and employers avoid firing anyone because they expect the problems are temporary.  At this point I suspect pain has been delayed, not cured, but I'm still trying to figure it out.
One of the scenarios I'm thinking about is whether an economic contraction could be asynchronous across different areas of the economy. The mixed signals suggest some areas of the economy are shrinking at the same time as others are expanding. This could mean each sector clears out its excesses while there are never enough sectors going down at the same time to pull the entire economy down into official recession. Unemployment could stay low as workers move from shrinking areas to expanding areas and back again, as various areas of the economy digest rising interest rates at different paces.

During the COVID economy, the goods sector expanded while the service sector shrunk. After case numbers declined, the service sector boomed ahead as consumers pivoted to restaurants and vacations instead of buying stuff. Now consumers appear to be in great shape with the lowest debt-service to income ratio in the 43 year history of that metric, unemployment about as low as it can possibly be, and pro-consumption tailwinds from a "wealth effect" due to home equity. Of course, it's generally the pre-2021 homeowners with sub-4% mortgages reaping this windfall, while all others face rapidly escalating housing expenses - another inequality. Metrics are so good the Fed's GDPNow tool has apparently gone haywire, predicting 5.9% growth!

Yet, amid all this good news, S&P500 earnings have fallen since December 2021. The rising probability of more rate hikes comes with a rising probability of more bank failures or issues in the non-bank financial economy. Then there is the looming threat of CRE and a possible housing bubble.

Will healthy consumers buy enough time for the banks and office properties to adjust to new realities and will housing prices stay afloat amid low unemployment? Or will companies under earnings pressure start letting staff go, raising unemployment, and crashing the housing/CRE markets?

Companies must decide: "Do we deal with much higher interest expenses by downsizing and de-leveraging or do we just raise prices?" Rapidly falling inflation and earnings suggests to me that attempts to raise prices have hit a wall of competition and steep elasticity. For example, retail sales seem to have plateaued or entered a lower-growth phase after April 2022. As longer-term rates go up and inflation falls, companies are watching their cost of capital rise faster than their pricing power.

Consumption is still being stimulated by the surplus liquidity from the COVID economy when people and businesses had to cut spending while they were simultaneously getting checks in the mail and cheap loans. Most of us know this effect will run out someday. Thus it may seem like a bad time to be building up inventories or making residential investments and a good time to be deleveraging.

Price hikes aren't working, so companies are under pressure to deleverage and downsize their employees and inventories to restore profits. But that's very hard to justify in an environment of strong economic growth and low unemployment. So maybe they'll make hay while the sun shines and then lay everyone off when recessionary conditions become unmistakable. 

The relatively new work-from-home economy may support this strategy. In 2022, McKinsey reported that about a third of workers were full-time remote working. Most employers of these remote workers don't have to lease, renovate, or maintain office space, pay utility bills, or pay as much for security, insurance, permits, etc. The expense of having employees shifted from a mix of fixed and variable costs to almost all variable costs. That means if remote employees are laid off, there is no empty office building to bleed money until it can be sold a couple of years later. Thus there is less reason for employers to preemptively lay off anyone in preparation to shut down expensive fixed-cost facilities.

Competitors are in the same position, so the bigger risk is laying off workers and then being unable to reacquire them and their market share when the economy returns to growth. Plus, WFH workforces can be scaled more rapidly than office-based workforces because growth is not tied to physical facility work. So maybe now, employers will hang onto their inexpensive WFH workers through the rough patches, or even double down on the WFH model to reduce overhead fixed costs and increase flexibility. The result could be a reduced tendency for severe recessions to happen, because the rationale for layoffs is reduced for a third of workers.

MustacheAndaHalf

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The per sector recession you mention is called a "rolling recession" in articles I've read.  This article is a month old, from an economics reporter who has had that role 17 years:
https://apnews.com/article/recession-economy-inflation-jobs-unemployment-2ad91e65f4c0c79ebd2518e351934605

Low skilled jobs have an advantage - workers can shift from one low-skilled job to another, and there's no skills to learn.  If firings happen in one low-skilled job, and hirings in another low-skilled job, the rolling recession could work.  But if a skilled welder loses their job, it doesn't matter if hospitals are hiring heart surgeons.  Skill requirements matter in a rolling recession.

MustacheAndaHalf

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I can't find a good source for credit card default rates (not late payments - defaults).  Maybe I need to retract the claim of highest defaults in 30 years until I have more than Twitter as the source of that.

The question of Covid money being spent matters to the strong consumer narrative.  In this FRED graph, I think Covid stimulus lead to the lowest default rates in 10 years.  If that is accurate, the U-shaped smile reveals Covid stimulus arriving (2020-2021) and then being spent (2022-2023).
https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/DRCCLACBS

I speculate that most people have run out of Covid stimulus money.  A few articles mention Americans passed $1 trillion in credit card debt, the highest on record.  Credit cards are charging the highest interest rates in 10 years, because the Fed funds rate is the highest in 10 years.  It looks like we have the largest CC balances on record at the same time we have the highest interest rates in a decade.  Doesn't seem like a good combination.

On the flip side, U.S. GDP remains strong.  Since the classic definition of recession uses two quarters of negative GDP, there's no recession when GDP is positive.  And it is strongly positive at present, which argues against consumer spending being a problem at this point.  I guess we'll know more once July - Sept 2023 GDP data is reported as 2023 Q3 GDP.

EscapeVelocity2020

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It has been argued many times and many different ways that GDP really isn’t a great measure of the health of an economy.  It’s the best we’ve got, but that doesn’t mean it’s good.  I would additionally argue that it is even more misleading during elevated inflation.

There is also an argument to be made that people are making too much of record low unemployment while missing that labor force participation rate is still below pre-pandemic levels.

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!