Author Topic: buy bank stocks on the dip  (Read 117351 times)

chasesfish

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4469
  • Age: 43
  • Location: Florida
Re: buy bank stocks on the dip
« Reply #550 on: January 09, 2024, 02:33:10 PM »
Regarding the BTFP ending, I expect all the "at risk" banks with large uninsured deposit concentrations fixed that over the last year. 

There's limited reasons to run the bank if you are insured.   5yr Treasury was either 3.98% or 4% as of year end 2022.  (Opened at 4% on 1/2/2023).   Treasury is the same today with one year of duration burnoff for these banks.

I think the issue(s) are going to be earnings zombies and potentially tight credit from it this cycle.  So many banks went so long on duration, they'll be fine from a credit risk perspective, but won't really be productive companies for years.  I'm not sure how to profit on that other than to short some of the zombies when they get overvalued...and that's a tough game for banks. 

I see the "risks" as dissapointed shareholders vs. a collapse.



chasesfish

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4469
  • Age: 43
  • Location: Florida
Re: buy bank stocks on the dip
« Reply #551 on: January 12, 2024, 05:14:25 AM »
Bank earnings season.  I expect this one will bore the heck out of everyone.  So far the Big 4 have reported without much surprise.

The bigger the bank, the larger their special assessment charge.   It's lovely to me as a BAC shareholder to see them pay $2.1bil to help out JPM's acquisition of First Republic Bank.   In hindsight it'll be pretty dumb to fail FRB and SVB instead of just temporarily providing unlimited deposit insurance.   Also expect some "kitchen sink" charges, anything a bank can take as a "charge" today and recover in interest income over the next two years for some window dressing.  Lots of bond losses came back and there's already an FDIC special charge, so there will be other charges tossed in.  Such is public co life.

Net Interest Income / Net Interest Margin is what to watch.  Everyone will disclose if they already bottomed or when they expect it.  Sometime between Q4 2023 and Q2 2024 will be reasonable, those who aren't improving margins by then have bigger issues.   The regionals start reporting next week, we can start looking at commercial credit quality vs. 2019.   This year we'll finally see some data on commercial real estate as the 2021 / 2022 vintage loans start maturing and seasoning. 

Any consumer softeness is a quarter away.  JPM just reminded everyone the economy is being fueled by deficit spending.

I doubt I'll comment much this time around, there's not a lot interesting out there to buy.   Added a little $VLY but would like a pullback.




ChpBstrd

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 8307
  • Location: A poor and backward Southern state known as minimum wage country
Re: buy bank stocks on the dip
« Reply #552 on: January 12, 2024, 11:36:04 AM »
Thanks for the thoughts @chasesfish. I'm curious about the mechanics of how a bank reduces their uninsured deposits. Is it through the purchase of supplemental insurance on their largest accounts and informing those account holders that there's no need to flee?

I agree financials look a lot less interesting these days. However there is still a case to be made for banks if (a) their bond portfolios are going to appreciate, (b) key risks like deposit flight or rising defaults are reduced, (c) customer demand for both loans and NIB accounts pick up due to falling interest rates, and (d) PE ratios normalize a bit across industries in a soft landing scenario.

The 5 year treasury yield, which you mentioned is the basis for CRE rates, is now at the bottom of the yield curve at 3.819% and falling. This is relatively good news for CRE, considering office vacancies are at an all-time record 19.6%. I wonder if we will see preemptive refinancing deals to lock in these levels or if property holders will hold out for even lower. If I owned a skyscraper, I might be tempted to take today's rates rather than gamble that 5 year yields will keep falling throughout this year. 

I think the market's expectation of 150bp or more of cuts to the FFR is a bit overboard, and December's high inflation reading makes it even less likely. My guess would be 75 or 100bp of cuts this year, all in the 2nd half, though the cuts could come faster in a crisis scenario. Still, even this pessimistic viewpoint seems to allow CRE refinancings to continue in 2024 as they did in 2023, removing one of the main arguments against investing in banks. Then we already know rate cuts are coming, so mark the above reasons (a) and (c) as more likely.

Still, I'm 50/50 about whether we have a recession ahead - the thing which determines all the other things. We're right in the middle of the historical timeframe in which a recession would be expected to start according to yield curve inversions and the LEI index. Yet the job market, the National Financial Conditions Index, household debt service / income, durables orders, GDP growth, and even residential fixed investment are all showing signs that we've turned the corner instead of steadily worsening as most of them usually do ahead of a recession.

Six months from now might be a different story. However if a recession hasn't started by then it will be getting progressively less likely. This is because the financial system will have further digested rate hikes and everything from vacancies to debt servicing will have been made marginally easier to deal with by even a couple percent of inflation. Meanwhile, we're now in a trend where wages are growing faster than prices, a trend which could mean inflation is largely the movement of money into rising wages which will translate into more deposits, more demand, and lower defaults.

So there is a bull case for getting into banks like MTB (PE=7.6), RF (7.6), STBA (8.5), and others mentioned upthread. It would just require a lot of conviction about an economic soft landing, because the outcomes for bank stocks are going to either be up big or down big.

chasesfish

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4469
  • Age: 43
  • Location: Florida
Re: buy bank stocks on the dip
« Reply #553 on: January 12, 2024, 05:22:20 PM »
You are right on all fronts.

Regarding office, the reset process just has to occur over the next three years and it's happening.

The CMBS pools of 4+ story central business district office is going through the resolution process.  The equity owners lose it all, the CMBS holders lose some.   Most have some value, few will be worth land value only.   The random suburban six story office tower built in areas where there's no others also have a list of pain.

The smaller office stuff on bank balance sheets isn't as bad, but you'll see some losses.   1-2 story office has better occupancy and less agressive leverage.  I also expect some of the crazy Triple Net lease retail deals to hit smaller banks harder.   The $hitbank I own waiting on an activist election just announced a RiteAid reserve equal to 2+ quarters of earnings. 

Macro?  I don't know.   Dimon commented today about just how stimulative this level of deficit spending is and we'd be in a recession if taxes = govt expenditures.  This can't go on forever, right?  Borrowing more than half a trillion a year for elderly healthcare instead of adjusting payroll taxes seems insane to me. 

ChpBstrd

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 8307
  • Location: A poor and backward Southern state known as minimum wage country
Re: buy bank stocks on the dip
« Reply #554 on: January 31, 2024, 09:13:38 AM »
NYCB caught analysts flat-footed today with a $252M loss versus analyst consensus for a $206M profit. The stock is down 35% so far today. KRE was dragged down 3.6%.

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/york-community-bancorp-slumps-surprise-123325779.html

Quote
The purchase of Signature Bank’s deposits moved New York Community Bancorp into a regulatory category that requires additional capital levels. The company said that was responsible for the dividend cut and a boost to its provision for loan losses that was higher than expectations. The loan-loss provision was $552 million, compared with analysts’ estimates of $45 million.

If this narrative is partially true, this sounds like a one-time growing pain and a dramatic market overreaction. Revenue came in significantly below forecasts, but not to the point one would expect a 35% drop. Perhaps the market was spooked by far-above-estimate loan loss provisions, as NYCB braces itself for a world without the BTFP. In general though, it sounds like they're doing the right thing cutting the dividend, bracing for the risks which come from the premature end of the BTFP, and meeting regulations as is required for >$100B banks (it is the analysts who should be downgraded for missing this detail). The PE ratio not counting the 4th quarter is around 5.5. I'm tempted to buy the dip.

NYCB's preferred stocks also dropped double-digit percentages on the news, even though there are no reports of dividend cuts or distress there. VLY dropped almost 7% on the NYCB news, even though they already reported earnings.

Weathering

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 81
Re: buy bank stocks on the dip
« Reply #555 on: January 31, 2024, 10:48:22 AM »
I bought 500 shares of NYCB today at 6.60/share but then sold 2/16 covered calls with a $6.00 strike price for $0.90/share. I’ll get almost 5% gain in two weeks if NYCB stays above $6.00 on 2/16.
Then I bought NYCB-PA for $20.02/share (8% dividend yield). Going to hold this one for a year or more.

chasesfish

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4469
  • Age: 43
  • Location: Florida
Re: buy bank stocks on the dip
« Reply #556 on: January 31, 2024, 08:10:27 PM »
Chiming in here.  I own VLY and added today.   IMO they are collateral damage due to size / region.

I went into NYCB today and so did a few other bank nerds I keep up with.   My conclusion is this one is too difficult for me.   They have just under $10bil in equity but a $37bil multifamily book concentrated in low rate, rent & vacancy controlled apartments in New York City.  They didn't provide the type of clarity I would need in the earnings release or supplementals to tell me enough about that book of business to decide if this is investable or a zero.   

If you play the game of marking their assets, you have a sub 4% yielding book on an undesirable asset, Signature Bank's portfolio of similar multifamily loans would have sold for under 80 cents on the dollar without govt support.  Their deposit franchise is unimpressive at sub 20% non-interest demand deposits to total assets.

The biggest tailwind would be a change in NY rent / vacancy control laws.  They aren't sustainable, but politicians can continue crazy for longer than it's reasonable.

There are cases to own it and reasons this can be a good trade, just not for me. 

ChpBstrd

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 8307
  • Location: A poor and backward Southern state known as minimum wage country
Re: buy bank stocks on the dip
« Reply #557 on: February 01, 2024, 08:59:41 AM »
They didn't provide the type of clarity I would need in the earnings release or supplementals to tell me enough about that book of business to decide if this is investable or a zero.
What additional information would you like to see on their books of business? Not saying I disagree - more that I want to learn what you're looking for, and if NYCB is omitting something you'd usually see.

The common and preferreds are down again today. NYCB is down another 11% and NYCB-PA is down another 1.8% amid a rising broader market. NYCB-PA is now yielding 8%. The typical pattern for bad news seems to be: big drop on day 1, smaller drop on day 2, and a tiny <1% recovery on day 3.

There seems to be some analyst disagreement about whether NYCB's write-offs suggest the office market is finally collapsing. A Raymond James analyst downgraded NYCB but a JP Morgan analyst said the reaction is overblown and a rebound is coming. I wonder if the JP Morgan attitude is related to their own return-to-office culture?
https://www.barrons.com/articles/new-york-community-bancorp-regional-bank-stocks-3a0eae6f?siteid=yhoof2

Rent controls may cause housing shortages and be costly to landlords, but to a lender these apartment buildings might represent a relatively assured cash flow. New Yorkers will do anything to stay in their rent-controlled apartments, so there won't be a cyclical vacancy problem. And if rent controls were ever removed, the buildings would appreciate so much that the collateral value would skyrocket.

So I think the question is whether office real estate is about to finally implode, after years of WFH vacancies (16.4% in Manhattan) and with 5y treasury yields at 3.8%. Perhaps it doesn't matter what the loan rate is; if owners can't find anyone to rent the space they still eventually default.

If there is still a surplus of offices at today's full employment, maybe it is unreasonable to expect economic growth to fill those empty spaces? Who is going to sit in the cubicles? Immigrants? The report linked above says there are still millions of square feet of office space under construction, amounting to 1.4% of existing stock, which may not be a net addition to supply when we consider the offices being torn down or repurposed.

chasesfish

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4469
  • Age: 43
  • Location: Florida
Re: buy bank stocks on the dip
« Reply #558 on: February 01, 2024, 12:35:18 PM »
I found the presentation. for Q4.

I see pages 22-25 and I want no part of this trade. 

Everything about this is about predicting what the governmental entities will do.   The FDIC let them buy Signature Bank's loans, so it's unlikely they would turn around and fail them.  At the same time, the bank relies heavily on federal borrowings for funding and this stock price hit could affect the deposit portfolio.

At best this thing is a zombie, at worse I would get diluted out.   This one may make money, but is not for me. 

Weathering

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 81
Re: buy bank stocks on the dip
« Reply #559 on: February 01, 2024, 12:38:33 PM »
Ouch! My break even point on NYCB is $5.70/share on 2/16 (seems like so long from now).
I doubled down on NYCB-PA at $18.01. Giving me an average of $19.01/share.

I don’t need NYCB to recover, but I hope it doesn’t go to zero.

I can’t find any bonds from NYCB. Their credit rating is BBB-. I’d like to see how the bond market is interpreting those NYCB earning.

I did find bonds from VLY (BB+). They are only yielding 5.6% YTM. The market must have solid faith in VLY to support those bond prices. So, that bodes well for those of you in VLY.

ChpBstrd

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 8307
  • Location: A poor and backward Southern state known as minimum wage country
Re: buy bank stocks on the dip
« Reply #560 on: February 01, 2024, 02:48:07 PM »
NYCB's presentation was a frustrating read for this noob. Lots of undefined acronyms I had to cross-reference from earlier quarters' 10-Qs.

They gave numbers for the percentage of their loans which were "criticized" (determined to be at risk, even if currently performing) but did not provide numbers in earlier quarterly reports for comparison or trending purposes. Plus they did not provide a statement of cash flows, and no I'm not willing to spend hours hand-creating it from the balance sheet and income statement.

Criticized Loans:
Multifamily: 8.3% (notes mention "re-pricing risk" on p.15)
Rent-regulated: 14%
Office: 38%
Homebuilders: 0%
Warehouse: 0%

So my initial thought that rent-regulated would be safer was wrong, but their main issue is offices (according to them). The discordant part of all this is why are they only now reporting criticized loans and making large adjustments? Haven't office vacancies been a thing for a while now? And why would rent-regulated apartments suddenly be at risk of repricing if the occupancy rate is 97%? Maybe because they have been falling behind market rents and expenses for a couple of years now? So why all the 4th quarter drama?

The market seems to be assuming the worst - that a bunch of loans suddenly quit performing at the same time. Are we seeing anything similar from other banks? It's mysterious.

A charitable explanation is they just avoided paying a bunch of taxes or raising funds via a 4th quarter accounting maneuver, but that's filling in a lot of blanks. Maybe I should listen to the earnings call.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2024, 02:53:43 PM by ChpBstrd »

reeshau

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3902
  • Location: Houston, TX Former locations: Detroit, Indianapolis, Dublin
  • FIRE'd Jan 2020
Re: buy bank stocks on the dip
« Reply #561 on: February 01, 2024, 04:29:31 PM »
If they had done this in Q2, they would have been one among many.  Doing it now, they stick out like a sore thumb.

It might be worthwhile to see if the questionable loans are theirs--legacy NYCB, vs. Signature.  Regardless, there was some kind of strategic mistake made.  I have heard that if you move an asset out of HFI, you have to re-evaluate the whole HFI portfolio.  They move a co-op property in preparation for a sale, so this may have triggered the actions following the realization.  I hope that $185M is worth all this.

Also, note on page 19 that the company is assessing its goodwill, and may come out with an impairment charge in the future.

ChpBstrd

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 8307
  • Location: A poor and backward Southern state known as minimum wage country
Re: buy bank stocks on the dip
« Reply #562 on: February 01, 2024, 04:40:36 PM »
According to the earnings call, 2 loans - a unique co-op loan moved to held for sale and an office loan "that became non-accrual" in the 3rd quarter - accounted for the bulk of the charge-offs in the 4th quarter (at roughly the 8 minute mark in recording). So when we talk about whether this is a trend, we're really talking about what might be 2 buildings - probably their legacy business.

Also per the call:
  • Net interest margin deterioration was due to raising cash, as I suspected.
  • Deposit reductions were due to expected $1.2B custodial deposit reduction due to the Signature acquisition (not fully explained in noob terms).
  • The increase in loss reserves was simply a judgment call and puts NYCB's reserve levels in line with Category 4 peers. Office properties are being criticized based mostly on appraisals because of a lack of activity in the market.
  • At around 18:15, executives note that they haven't seen an uptick in delinquencies other than the 2 loans mentioned, but they are modeling their clients' 2024 loan rolls causing payment shock due to the higher rates. Importantly, they said their models assume no cut in interest rates this year. That's conservative, but I think it's also reasonable.
  • At around 19:30 they say their 2.4%-2.5% Net Interest Margin guidance will hold even if there are 3 rate cuts.
  • They will be building another $7.5B in cash in 2024 to comply with regulation YY standards. However, the regulation stress test occurs in April, so they expect to be done scrounging cash in the 1st quarter. There was no word on whether the common dividend might be reinstated in the 2nd or 3rd quarter.
  • In addition to SOFR staying the same all year in 2024, the bank's guidance also assumes ALL clients who refinance will take variable rate loans (vs. about 25% taking fixed rate loans last quarter) which are worse for NYCB. These assumptions are admittedly as conservative as possible, and don't seem to reflect 4th quarter reality. 
  • In addition to SOFR staying the same all year in 2024, the bank's guidance also assumes ALL clients who refinance will take variable rate loans (vs. about 25% taking fixed rate loans last quarter) which are worse for NYCB. These assumptions are admittedly as conservative as possible, and don't seem to reflect 4th quarter reality.
  • Any potential future goodwill impairment will not affect regulatory capital standards.
Overall, it sounds like management is obsessed with not failing the April stress test, and with becoming a more diversified "relationship" bank, maybe like USB. They make a good case that the 4th quarter loss is a unique event, and that 2025 (not necessarily 2024) will find them in a better place.

Between the lines it sounds like they're unhappy with their pre-2023 position of being a niche lender concentrated in multifamily and office properties in New York and want to become more like regional "peers". For stockholders, this raises the question "why not just buy their peers?" and the answer would be "because NYCB got beat up for experiencing growing pains and is cheaper". The rebuttal would be "why not buy sub-$100B banks if regulations make it this hard to grow?" and the response to that is "NYCB is cheap, and your smaller regional banks will still eventually face a cap on their growth, so their growth should be discounted too".

My takeaway from the call is that this was an embarrassment to everyone. NYCB management should have offered analysts guidance about their needs to raise case for reg. YY stress tests (unless... they only noticed the problem 3-4 months ago!) and the analysts all failed to observe that NYCB had a lot less cash than they would need for the stress tests they should have seen coming. As @reeshau notes, this should have been a more gradual and announced transition, not a sudden realization in the 4th quarter! Somewhere, a short seller fund's analyst is banging their heads on a desk for missing this one.

Subjects that were conspicuously NOT discussed included asset sales or spin offs to avoid the regulatory cliff, any plans to restore the common dividend later this year, or the ability of NYCB to get decent prices in a frozen market for the distressed assets they are selling.

Also I've heard enough New York accent to last me a while.

ChpBstrd

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 8307
  • Location: A poor and backward Southern state known as minimum wage country
Re: buy bank stocks on the dip
« Reply #563 on: February 01, 2024, 08:03:23 PM »

chasesfish

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4469
  • Age: 43
  • Location: Florida
Re: buy bank stocks on the dip
« Reply #564 on: February 02, 2024, 08:44:03 AM »
FWIW, the market is pricing the commons like a dilutive stock issuance is a high probability.

The market is pricing the preferreds as if failure is unlikely - WAL, PACW, FRC were all in the $10/share range in the panic.


ChpBstrd

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 8307
  • Location: A poor and backward Southern state known as minimum wage country
Re: buy bank stocks on the dip
« Reply #565 on: February 06, 2024, 09:14:13 AM »
It appears regulators were forcing NYCB's hand, and that explains the sudden dividend cut and loss reserve 10x expectations.

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/nycb-tense-talks-watchdog-led-215915423.html

Quote
The drastic financial moves — which triggered a record plunge in the company’s stock and dragged down shares across the industry last week — followed behind-the-scenes conversations with officials from the Office of the Comptroller of the Currency, the people said, asking not to be identified describing the confidential discussions.

Two senior executives left their posts in the months before the bank unveiled its measures, one of the people said. As of late last year, the company’s website no longer showed chief risk officer Nicholas Munson and chief audit executive Meagan Belfinger on its leadership page. The changes weren’t publicly reported by the firm at the time.

If this episode was mainly due to suddenly zealous regulators, then it's easier to pass off as a one-time charge. However, the unreported executive departures - in the risk and audit areas of all places! - leave a major stink. Were they fired for ignoring regulations and bringing the OCC down upon the bank? Did they do something which caused the regulators to demand their heads? Were they just pushed beyond their competency? Or did they push the bank to raise capital against pressure from other executives? Were they the whistleblowers?

This revelation suggests there will be a lot of litigation around whatever happened in the 3rd-4th quarters and potentially some infighting within NYCB and its board. NYCB is down another 14% this morning, though NYCB-PA is only down 7% - consistent with @chasesfish 's thought that a common stock dilution is coming.

Glad I didn't catch the knife earlier. @Weathering do the latest revelations change your mind about holding through these travails? For me, this alters my narrative about management doing the right things to grow and respond to two defaults, but I'm conflicted because this is what buy-at-the-bottom opportunities always look like.

Weathering

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 81
Re: buy bank stocks on the dip
« Reply #566 on: February 06, 2024, 01:18:43 PM »
My NYCB common stock holding of 500 shares won’t keep me up at night. After the expiration of the Feb 16th covered call I sold, I’ll decide what to do next (sell another covered call, take my loss, hold the shares, etc). The NYCB preferred shares I bought (400 shares avg price $19.01) are now more worrisome.
Seems an external source will be needed to keep NYCB from going under - no one believes mgmt currently. Common Stock price is too low for a secondary offering and any sort of reverse split will trigger an even greater fall. The bank needs some stability and someone like a NY city official to say they stand with NYCB because NYCB stands behind affordable housing in the city.

chasesfish

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4469
  • Age: 43
  • Location: Florida
Re: buy bank stocks on the dip
« Reply #567 on: February 06, 2024, 11:03:22 PM »
The bank needs some stability and someone like a NY city official to say they stand with NYCB because NYCB stands behind affordable housing in the city.

That's probably the last thing this bank needs.   The less they are tied to NYC's anti-capitalistic apartment regulations, the better.

On vacation and not really keeping up, I would say if this thing gets down into the $2-$2.50/share range, the risk/reward starts looking attractive.   If they do a dilutive raise, you're buying around that dilutive raise price.  If they fail, you didn't loose too much.  If somehow they survive, it gets interesting.   The prefs are finally looking like there's distress in the equity.

Will be doing a deeper dive into VLY if it keeps getting cheaper.  Saw it closed at $8 and I started buying some at $10.   If this plays out like First Republic, they are the Western Alliance / Pac West of this panic.


ChpBstrd

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 8307
  • Location: A poor and backward Southern state known as minimum wage country
Re: buy bank stocks on the dip
« Reply #568 on: February 07, 2024, 09:55:42 AM »
NYCB lost another 12% this morning, now down to $3.69. NYCB-PA dropped 14% as even preferred shareholders are capitulating. The preferreds yield 10.95% at this morning's price.

In another move reminiscent of First Republic, NYCB issued a press release saying their deposit base is fine and actually increased in January, and their total liquidity exceeded uninsured deposits. Those uninsured deposits were $22.9B, or 27% of deposits! There's no crisis here, 3 days into it, lol!

My problem with NYCB is that I don't know how to analyze the solvency of their office or multifamily residential clients. It would take a very good analyst, possibly with access to private records, to dig through all those clients, sort them by danger of default, and then arrive at a correct verdict about the future solvency of NYCB.

The stability of those $22.9B in uninsured deposits depends upon the perceived stability of the loans, and the depositors might have no better visibility than I do into the loans. Bank management can say the loans are fine, but bank management also appears to be in turmoil, if not a civil war. If I had uninsured deposits at NYCB, I would be nervous about the bank hitting a period of illiquidity while the Feds arrange a marriage. It would also take me more than 3 days to make a decision and move funds, as we observed with First Republic last year.

On the bright side, the 5-year treasury is near 4%, the NFCI signals plenty of market liquidity, and commercial mortgage rates appear to be well below 6% in a time with historically low vacancy rates. Plus the 2023 experience showed that uninsured deposits will eventually be covered in the event of isolated bank collapses, and that the Fed has some tricks up its sleeve. NYCB has generated hundreds of millions of dollars in free cash flow for each of the past 3 years, and with the dividend cut they might be able to direct most of that firehose of cash at managing defaults. As a last resort, the Fed's discount window offers liquidity at 5.5-6%.

I would not expect that NYCB was willing to loan to rent-controlled apartment building operators against the full market value of the building, because the value would be impaired by being rent-controlled. They would have lent based on income. No, NYCB probably cannot seize and quickly resell the building at a price that would make sense for condo conversions or teardowns, but they probably have the latitude to refinance loans or forgive a few payments rather than foreclosing. In that sense, they might be looking at manageable losses IF depositors and governments cooperate.

Still, @chasesfish's approach of buying or holding just outside the epicenter of the crisis (e.g. VLY, down 9% so far today, or DCOM, down 8% today) is the game plan that worked in 2023 and might work again in 2024 unless there is a full-fledged CRE/housing bubble crisis. A crisis becomes less likely by the day as rates stay low. If the less-concentrated banks have their stocks beaten down but do not die, we could see another year of bank stock opportunism. If 2023 is the model, you buy right when the Fed launches their next liquidity enhancement program. Maybe this time it will be expanding collateral for the discount window to include lower-rated CRE mortgages and MBS.

chasesfish

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4469
  • Age: 43
  • Location: Florida
Re: buy bank stocks on the dip
« Reply #569 on: February 07, 2024, 10:37:24 AM »
@ChpBstrd  $NYCB at $2.50 might fit your name....buying it because you're, well a ChpBstrd...

NYCB is still mostly in the too difficult to value camp.   It's probably a dilutive raise candidate vs. liquidity run/failure.   They have a ton of deposits under Flagstar bank, which they own but the average news watcher isn't going to see. 


I added a little more to VLY (still less than 10k) and found their investor presentation inside the 8k.   Much less NYC multifamily expsoure, much smaller average loan size.  Very small average loan size on office.   Still a huge CRE bank and I'd like some details around maturity by year and a better price before I call this a fat pitch.

ChpBstrd

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 8307
  • Location: A poor and backward Southern state known as minimum wage country
Re: buy bank stocks on the dip
« Reply #570 on: February 07, 2024, 11:21:51 AM »
The macro angle offers reasons not to buy anything associated with offices. The national office vacancy rate hit 18.3% in January according to commercialedge.com versus 11-12% in 2017-2019.

YoY nationwide growth in office-inhabiting jobs was 0.3% in 2023. The New York area saw a -1.14% change in "office using employment". All this came during a year when nonfarm employment increased by about 3M jobs (+1.9%), so jobs are still probably migrating to the WFH model. Imagine the pain for offices if job growth went flat or negative. I suspect it saves more money to lay off an office full of people than the same number of WFH employees, because with the former you get to quit paying rent and other costs. So that 18.3% vacancy rate could go much higher if there was a recession.

Economic growth cannot save us from an oversupply of offices because the unemployment rate is only 3.7%. I.e. there is no one left on the sidelines to take new, non-WFH jobs in these empty offices. This is the best vacancy rate and office using employment growth we can achieve with full employment and blockbuster GDP growth. Even worse, there are still about 97 million square feet of offices under construction nationwide.

In hindsight, the past several years may seem like a time when a glut of offices were built just as technology made this way of working obsolete for many kinds of jobs. It seems like new construction needs to come to a standstill and maybe some buildings will eventually need to be torn down for supply and demand to come back into balance. Banks seem like the logical bag-holders.


Weathering

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 81
Re: buy bank stocks on the dip
« Reply #571 on: February 07, 2024, 11:42:31 AM »
Re: NYCB. Last night I thought all was lost when Moody’s did a two notch downgrade (BAA3 to BA2). Seems like I wasn’t the only one thinking that way. But I focused on other things and now it looks like the storm may eventually pass. I don’t need NYCB to do well. I just need it to keep paying on the preferred (even if taken under by another bank).

Wish I could say I bought some at the bottom (I hope today was the bottom), but I’m not buying anything today. I have some agency bonds being called (funds will appear tonight) and those will go into new bonds or a bond fund by the end of the week.

chasesfish

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4469
  • Age: 43
  • Location: Florida
Re: buy bank stocks on the dip
« Reply #572 on: February 07, 2024, 11:00:51 PM »
The office story has not changed.

Central business district 4+ story stuff is going through a value reset.   That stuff is bad, much higher vacancy than national averages.    Some poorly designed suburban stuff is struggling with occupancy.   Who wants a 3+ story building with interior entrances out in the suburbs?

One story exterior entrance stuff is fine.  So are most small footprint suburban buildings.  Your dentist still needs space.   The lesson is know what lending your bank is doing, all of the above still gets classified as "office".

ChpBstrd

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 8307
  • Location: A poor and backward Southern state known as minimum wage country
Re: buy bank stocks on the dip
« Reply #573 on: February 09, 2024, 01:58:50 PM »
I had $300 sitting in a money market fund so I sold one put option on NYCB at the $3 strike expiring next Friday. I'll either make 9% in a week or own some NYCB when they announce a dilution.

This is my idea of a good time.

bluecollarmusician

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 724
  • You call this Fi(re)?
Re: buy bank stocks on the dip
« Reply #574 on: February 09, 2024, 02:12:40 PM »
I had $300 sitting in a money market fund so I sold one put option on NYCB at the $3 strike expiring next Friday. I'll either make 9% in a week or own some NYCB when they announce a dilution.

This is my idea of a good time.


Before I got to your last line I was nodding to myself and thinking "that's sounds like more fun than most ways I can think of spending money..."

ChpBstrd

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 8307
  • Location: A poor and backward Southern state known as minimum wage country
Re: buy bank stocks on the dip
« Reply #575 on: February 15, 2024, 01:57:48 PM »
@chasesfish what is your opinion about Basel 3 requirements? Will it be "the end of bank real estate financing as we know it" as the head of the Mortgage Bankers Association phrased it? Or is this just more hysterics from lobbyists who are employed to discourage banking regulation?

https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/realestate/new-rules-for-banks-would-be-the-end-of-real-estate-finance-as-we-know-it-mba-says/ar-BB1idpi1

My guess is the higher required asset quality for meeting capital requirements would make 2008-type crashes much less likely, but might also lead to higher interest rates for any loans not passed on to GSEs. It'll reduce market demand for assets that used to count toward capital requirements but no longer do, such as unsecured loans from other banks. That might harm profits at banks which make such loans, but I don't see it having an impact on Main Street economies or real estate prices. It also reduced the inter-dependencies that brought down banks like dominoes in 2008. Really, the difference between Basel II and Basel III is small enough to make the MBA's opposition seem more like political hysterics - akin to when bank lobbyists issued dire warnings of what would happen if the Glass-Steagal Act wasn't functionally repealed in the late 90s*.
Spoiler: show
*A banking financial crisis occurred a few years later.

chasesfish

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4469
  • Age: 43
  • Location: Florida
Re: buy bank stocks on the dip
« Reply #576 on: February 16, 2024, 10:22:30 AM »
I'll give my general answer:

Higher Capital Requirements equal:

- Less overall credit / tighter terms / higher rates
- Lower shareholder returns
- More consolidation
- Lower overall risk in the banking system.
- Lower economic growth
- Fewer banks

Lower Capital Requirements equal:

- More overall credit / looser terms / lower rates
- Higher economic growth
- Higher shareholder returns if your bank doesn't blow up
- More bank failures / blowups
- More banks overall

One of the fantastic features of the US system, outside of the *investment bank* blowup in 2008, is that most banks operate with 8-10% equity capital and pay into the FDIC insurance fund, which absorbs the cost of bank failures.   When the fund runs low, it simply asks banks to prepay the premiums. 

Capital rules will tighten and loosen over time, its the nature of the business.  As investors, borrowers, and citizens, we just have to understand the consequences of tightening or loosening said capital requirements. 

As a side note, I do think we're fortunate to have a legislative body setup where leaders of sub $10bil community banks can have the ear a House or Senate member to logically explain choices and consequences.   Represenatives from both parties that cover these smaller and mid size population areas "get" what the consequences mean from going too tight since the big banks just pull out of providing credit to smaller population areas.   In that regard, the US has been mostly reasonable, even if some fanatical stuff gets slipped into the CRA act in the 70s or Dodd Frank in 2010.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2024, 10:26:48 AM by chasesfish »

Weathering

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 81
Re: buy bank stocks on the dip
« Reply #577 on: February 17, 2024, 10:28:43 AM »
My NYCB investment turned out to be a yawn after a roller coaster ride. I’m down less than 3% after 3 weeks of stock swings. My plan is to hold NYCB-PRA and divest NYCB through at-the-money covered calls over the next month.
Wish I had instead used the NYCB scare to pickup shares (or preferred shares or bonds) in other regional banks who were temporarily brought down. I then could have held them long term.

chasesfish

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4469
  • Age: 43
  • Location: Florida
Re: buy bank stocks on the dip
« Reply #578 on: February 18, 2024, 05:28:28 AM »
My NYCB investment turned out to be a yawn after a roller coaster ride. I’m down less than 3% after 3 weeks of stock swings. My plan is to hold NYCB-PRA and divest NYCB through at-the-money covered calls over the next month.
Wish I had instead used the NYCB scare to pickup shares (or preferred shares or bonds) in other regional banks who were temporarily brought down. I then could have held them long term.

VLY is still trading at 85% of book or so while the other regionals have a 50% higher premium...so there's still time.

ChpBstrd

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 8307
  • Location: A poor and backward Southern state known as minimum wage country
Re: buy bank stocks on the dip
« Reply #579 on: February 20, 2024, 08:36:50 AM »
There's a rather scathing write up in the FT today with the headline: "Bad property debt exceeds reserves at largest U.S. banks". It's paywalled but here are the highlights:

Quote
The average reserves at JPMorgan Chase, Bank of America, Wells Fargo, Citigroup, Goldman Sachs and Morgan Stanley have fallen from $1.60 to 90 cents for every dollar of commercial real estate debt on which a borrower is at least 30 days late, according to filings to the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation.

The sharp deterioration took place in the last year after delinquent commercial property debt for the six big banks nearly tripled to $9.3bn.
Quote
Bank of America’s chief executive Brian Moynihan said in December that the bank had identified just $5bn in commercial property debt tied to buildings in sectors of the property market in which prices had dropped, a figure he said was tiny for a bank that earned nearly $30bn last year and has more than $3.2tn in assets.

“It’s such a small part of the table,” Moynihan said. “We feel good.”

This month, however, BofA said in an FDIC filing that delinquencies on loans tied to office, apartment and other non-residential buildings had jumped 50 per cent in the final quarter of last year to $2.1bn. At the same time, the bank cut its loss reserves for those loans by $50mn to just under $1.3bn.
Strangely, the article notes that regulators are focusing on small to mid sized banks, while implying it is the big banks which have set aside insufficient reserves.
Quote
US banks now hold $1.40 in reserves for every dollar of delinquent commercial real estate loans, down from $2.20 a year ago, according to the FDIC data, and the lowest cover banks have had to absorb potential commercial real estate loan losses in more than seven years.
I.e. if the biggest banks have only 90 cents for every 30-day-delinquent loan, but "US banks" overall have $1.40, then why would regulators not be focused on the bigger banks? Are big banks more aggressive at declaring loans delinquent and resolving them? Is there an asset-quality assumption that the worst is over for big banks but not small-midsize banks?

Weathering

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 81
Re: buy bank stocks on the dip
« Reply #580 on: February 20, 2024, 05:40:43 PM »
My NYCB investment turned out to be a yawn after a roller coaster ride. I’m down less than 3% after 3 weeks of stock swings. My plan is to hold NYCB-PRA and divest NYCB through at-the-money covered calls over the next month.
Wish I had instead used the NYCB scare to pickup shares (or preferred shares or bonds) in other regional banks who were temporarily brought down. I then could have held them long term.

VLY is still trading at 85% of book or so while the other regionals have a 50% higher premium...so there's still time.
I looked into buying some VLY preferred shares today, but the price moved away from me. So, I purchased VLY shares. Going to put them away in a drawer and only look at them a year+ down the road.

chasesfish

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4469
  • Age: 43
  • Location: Florida
Re: buy bank stocks on the dip
« Reply #581 on: February 21, 2024, 06:04:50 PM »
@ChpBstrd I don't know the specifics, I can only give you my general observation about the big bank question....

Banks *always* have more demand for commercial real estate loans than capital to lend.

The larger banks have the most existing customers, so they see the most deals.

Generally quality of the portfolio deteriorates as you go down in bank size.

I'm not surprised at all the larger banks mathematically have less reserves than smaller banks.   They have their pick of clients, projects, and markets, then the larger the bank, the more formulamatic they are in what they approve/don't approve with less exceptions.

Are they underreserved?  Only time will tell.

I think we're back to to boring with bank investing, everyone will watch for credit deterioration and margins relative to valuations. 


Weathering

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 81
Re: buy bank stocks on the dip
« Reply #582 on: February 29, 2024, 05:37:24 PM »
Arrrrrrrrrggggggghhh

chasesfish

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4469
  • Age: 43
  • Location: Florida
Re: buy bank stocks on the dip
« Reply #583 on: February 29, 2024, 05:42:54 PM »

chasesfish

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4469
  • Age: 43
  • Location: Florida
Re: buy bank stocks on the dip
« Reply #584 on: March 01, 2024, 04:06:34 AM »

The most accurate summary of NYCB from a bank hedge fund manager:

"The law changed in 2019. $nycb knew when these loans reset ⬆️ the new payment was ⬆️ than the rent roll & didnt reserve. They also knew to achieve + cash flow the assets would need to be marked ⬇️ 30-50% & ignored. Over those 5 yrs this irresponsible BoD & exec mgt earned 9 figs"

Instead of slowly working through their NYC rent controlled properties, selling loans, giving discounts to borrowers for paying them off, ect over the last five years,  NYCB managemenn they stuck their head in the sand and withdrawing tons of equity from the company thinking "there's no way the government is going to confiscate these properties by force"...yet five years after the law was passed it's held up to court challenges and there isn't yet political will in NYC to reverse it.   

Essentially the rent rates are held so low these deals can't cover debt payments and operating costs.  Eventually they won't be able to cover operating costs then the city will have to decide to either seize them for non-compliance of vacancy control or what they do about unpaid property taxes.

ChpBstrd

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 8307
  • Location: A poor and backward Southern state known as minimum wage country
Re: buy bank stocks on the dip
« Reply #585 on: March 01, 2024, 07:55:30 AM »
Yea this has become a "do I trust management?" question. The most charitable explanation is that these issues sneaked up on the company just last quarter - and again just now - due to gross incompetence plus building owners finally running out of cash after an unexpected spike in inflation from 2021-2023. A less charitable explanation involves stock option based compensation and golden parachutes.

WRT the rent control laws, my understanding is that if NYCB foreclosed, the buildings would stay rent controlled / eviction proof and therefore be worth a fraction of their open market value. As noted, if some can't cover their operating expenses, their value is only as very expensive options on the imminent repeal of rent controls. Correct me if I'm wrong about these assumptions.

But I'm still reluctant to just containerize these problems into a "this particular bank's management is stoopit" box. One of the two buildings to default and get written down in Q4 was an office, not a rent-controlled apartment. At what point are increasingly vacant office buildings in the same position as the rent-controlled apartment buildings - unable to break even on operating expenses and loan payments? And at what point does an un-rentable office building become as hard for a bank to sell as a rent-controlled apartment? If any of this is the case, the whole banking sector needs to fall like NYCB did today.

chasesfish

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4469
  • Age: 43
  • Location: Florida
Re: buy bank stocks on the dip
« Reply #586 on: March 01, 2024, 08:04:16 AM »
Here's a screen shot from Webush research.

I'm inclined to think this is mostly an asset concentration issue combined with a mediocre Chief Risk Officer and Chief Audit Officer.    25% in their portfolio is rent controlled multifamily in NYC with the next largest bank in this firm's converage universe at 5%.     The banks can survive 3-5% concentrations, they can not survive 25% concentrations in a type of loan that can go to near zero.   You can see why I'm mostly fine buying Valley at a discount at 3.6%.

CRO and CAO hiring 101 is you go to a larger bank and hire their #2 to be your #1.   Instead both that recently left / fired by the board did not have that background. 


reeshau

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3902
  • Location: Houston, TX Former locations: Detroit, Indianapolis, Dublin
  • FIRE'd Jan 2020
Re: buy bank stocks on the dip
« Reply #587 on: March 01, 2024, 08:20:44 AM »
The 2019 law is disclosed in their 2022 10K.  Of course, a worst-case scenario isn't laid out, but it's there:

The New York Housing Stability and Tenant Protection Act of 2019 In 2019, the New York State Legislature passed the Housing Stability and Tenant Protection Act of 2019 impacting about one million rent-regulated apartment units. Among other things, the new legislation: (i) curtails rent increases from material capital improvements and Individual Apartment Improvements; (ii) all but eliminates the ability for apartments to exit rent regulation; (iii) does away with vacancy decontrol and high income deregulation; and (iv) repealed the 20 percent vacancy bonus. While it will take several years for its full impact to be known, the legislation generally limits a landlord’s ability to increase rents on rent-regulated apartments and makes it more difficult to convert rent regulated apartments to market rent apartments.

ChpBstrd

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 8307
  • Location: A poor and backward Southern state known as minimum wage country
Re: buy bank stocks on the dip
« Reply #588 on: March 01, 2024, 09:56:54 AM »
When I sold OZKAP within a dime of the absolute bottom, at 12.85, I learned something important. I learned I should not pick up any "bargain" in a sector or macro environment where a worsening of conditions could force me out of the position.

A typical trader would just say you win some you lose some, but if I'm going to buy anything on "the dip" it needs to be something for which I have long-term confidence. Without that confidence, I'll end up "cutting my losses" in response to the arrival of worse news and an internal narrative that "the thesis didn't pan out, so salvage whatever cash you can".

By buying things I have confidence in, I can both buy the dip and hold through the next dip, if necessary. That algorithm dramatically increases my odds of long term success, as opposed to cutting losses in response to a downturn, like I tend to do with low-confidence investments.

With the information I have today, it seems like banking is the most risk-exposed sector in the U.S. economy. Banks are:
  • still sitting on bond losses and low-yielding, pre-2022 mortgages and loans,
  • exposed to what the affordability statistics say is a housing bubble exceeding 2007,
  • exposed to losses due to the work-from-home revolution which has led to record office space vacancy,
  • facing losses due to fast rising credit card, consumer loan, and mortgage delinquencies,
  • while only doing OK in this environment of rock-bottom 3.7% unemployment. (I.e. what happens when unemployment rises?)

Things have stayed afloat longer than I thought in 2022 or early 2023, but that was largely due to the BTFP, a program that is inexplicably going away. While the rest of the economy hums along nicely, I see banks as the canaries in our coal mine. They will be the first to be hit in the event of trouble.

So to me it doesn't make sense to have any concentration in banks. It makes sense to invest in small cap and mid cap ETFs* at today's valuations near multi-decade lows, and to watch the banking sector for any signs of trouble that could turn into a credit crunch. More losses in office or a fall in house prices would be a sign to hedge one's bets with collars rather than selling. If, on the other hand, most banks work through their losses and office vacancy goes down, then small and mid caps might do extraordinarily well over the next couple of years as valuations revert to more normal levels.

*note that small cap indices have a greater than average concentration in financials, but the comparison here is between something like KRE versus something like SPSM.

Weathering

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 81
Re: buy bank stocks on the dip
« Reply #589 on: March 01, 2024, 02:41:13 PM »
I averaged down on NYCB-A. My cost basis is now $17.90 (minus the $0.39 dividend next week). Gives me a dividend yield just above 9%. Comparing this to VLY-O, they are each yielding about the same buy VLY-O would be a better choice because they are better run (evidenced by many things).
The 500 shares of NYCB common I own have been locked into a covered call for July at $5.50. Surprisingly, that covered call didn’t move much today - very significant implied volatility. I considered rolling it to a lower strike price but the difference in premium was minimal.

Yesterday, my overall position in NYCB was above my purchase price and I had started to ignore it. But that changed in a hurry last night.

Today was still a great day for the portfolio, so no regrets.

ChpBstrd

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 8307
  • Location: A poor and backward Southern state known as minimum wage country
Re: buy bank stocks on the dip
« Reply #590 on: March 04, 2024, 11:16:48 AM »
Here's an interesting April 2023 article referenced in Patrick Boyle's latest video. From the article:

Quote
We focus on commercial real estate (CRE) loans that account for about quarter of assets for an average bank and about $2.7 trillion of bank assets in the aggregate. Using loan-level data we find that after recent declines in property values following higher interest rates and adoption of hybrid working patterns about 14% of all loans and 44% of office loans appear to be in a “negative equity” where their current property values are less than the outstanding loan balances. Additionally, around one-third of all loans and the majority of office loans may encounter substantial cash flow problems and refinancing challenges. A 10% (20%) default rate on CRE loans – a range close to what one saw in the Great Recession on the lower end -- would result in about $80 ($160) billion of additional bank losses. If CRE loan distress would manifest itself early in 2022 when interest rates were low, not a single bank would fail, even under our most pessimistic scenario. However, after more than $2 trillion decline in banks’ asset values following the monetary tightening of 2022, additional 231 (482) banks with aggregate assets of $1 trillion ($1.4 trillion) would have their marked to market value of assets below the face value of all their non-equity liabilities.

Of course, the healthy dose of skepticism is that these researchers' alarming data are months old, and the implied banking crisis has yet to materialize nearly a year later. Shortly after the original version of this paper was written, the BTFP effectively quashed the banking crisis of spring 2023, residential values held up, and for the most part CRE refinancing continued without widespread issues. Was the alarmism of early-mid 2023 misplaced, or is the financial system more fragile than ever?

We're left looking for reasons 2024 could be different than 2023. Possibilities include:
  • The BTFP is going away, yet long-term rates haven't fallen enough to erase the bond losses on bank balance sheets.
  • Interest rates seem unlikely to fall as quickly as thought 6-12 months ago, which may mean some properties may have arranged short-term financing in 2023 as a bet on lower rates, and now face a reckoning in 2024.
  • Landlords who have been running at a loss, burning industry-standard levels of reserve cash for the past couple of years, may finally be running out of money and could all start defaulting at once.
  • As Patrick Boyle notes, banks are still lending because they're relying more on historical default rates than the present market value of buildings. Extending this logic, loan quality may have gotten worse over the past couple of years of high liquidity, and we could be about to witness the wave of defaults poor-quality underwriting usually leads to.
I don't know enough to know the answers, but I'm considering a bear spread on KRE as a potential hedge for broader index funds. Real estate loans seem to be the vulnerability in the economy, but as 2007 taught us it is very hard to call the timing on these issues. By '07 we had heard about the overheating RE market for a couple of years.

chasesfish

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4469
  • Age: 43
  • Location: Florida
Re: buy bank stocks on the dip
« Reply #591 on: March 05, 2024, 04:27:56 AM »
We will see...So far the CRE issues are in specific pockets, my concern is it expands if we see a real recession.  That's what slows occupancy / rate growth down in the smaller properties.   Less retail, less small businesses, cutting out that self storage bill due to job loss, taking on roommates reducing occupancy.

In the meantime we'll see bank's Net Interest Margins expand this year and bond portfolios continue to recover value in 2024, both of which gives the banks more juice to handle a downturn if/when it comes.

ChpBstrd

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 8307
  • Location: A poor and backward Southern state known as minimum wage country
Re: buy bank stocks on the dip
« Reply #592 on: March 06, 2024, 01:18:16 PM »
NYCB and NYCB-PRA had trading halted today after NYCB fell another 42% upon reports of a share dilution. Shares then rallied when trading resumed.

On the NYCB website they posted the following press release:

Quote
Liberty Strategic Capital ("Liberty"), Hudson Bay Capital ("Hudson Bay"), Reverence Capital Partners ("Reverence Capital"), Citadel Securities ("Citadel"), other institutional investors and certain members of the Company's management (collectively, the "Investors") will make a combined over $1 billion investment in the Company.... Liberty is expected to invest $450 million, Hudson Bay will invest $250 million, and Reverence will invest $200 million as part of the transaction. 

In addition, the board got 4 new members and Joseph Otting was named the new CEO.

Makes me wonder... if yesterday was a horrible time to invest in NYCB, will tomorrow be a horrible time to invest in NYCB? An extra billion dollars could go a long way to maintaining solvency for a bank whose market cap was $2B before the infusion, and the new management is likely to be better than the old. The binary odds of "will it survive" actually improved today and the non-cumulative preferreds are yielding 9.7%.

Edit: The press release was short on details about how many common and preferred shares were being sold to the investors in exchange for their cash.
Quote
NYCB will sell ... to the Investors shares of common stock of the Company at a price per share of $2.00 and a series of convertible preferred stock with a conversion price of $2.00, for an aggregate investment amount of $1.05 billion. In addition, investors will receive 60% warrant coverage to purchase non-voting, common-equivalent stock with an exercise price of $2.50 per share, a 25% premium to the price paid on common stock.

So perhaps $2/share is a bargain price in the eyes of expert investors and analysts.The post-announcement price of $3.31 in theory reflects the premium these investors are earning by making NYCB safer, minus investor expectations of what must be massive dilution.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2024, 01:44:17 PM by ChpBstrd »

chasesfish

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4469
  • Age: 43
  • Location: Florida
Re: buy bank stocks on the dip
« Reply #593 on: March 06, 2024, 01:45:02 PM »
NYCB just diluted the heck out of all the existing shareholders.

The prefs are only a good deal if they keep paying the dividend, which they may not.   Bank prefs are not a cumulative dividend so they can be classified with Tangible Common Equity.

I'm still passing on anything to do with NYCB and keeping my small bet on VLY

Weathering

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 81
Re: buy bank stocks on the dip
« Reply #594 on: March 06, 2024, 03:38:52 PM »
As a shareholder of NYCB common and preferred, I’m hoping the current preferred shares are on par with the new preferred shares being issued/sold to the new investor group. If they are, then I think the dividends on the preferred will remain. If not, then I can totally see vultures like Citadel taking every possible penny from existing NYCB preferred shareholders.

My game-theory observation on why these investors are interested in NYCB is that they want first dibs at buying the NYC multi family properties which default on their mortgage. Prior to this investment, the owners of multi family properties with mortgages at NYCB had leverage because any news about their troubles was worse for NYCB than for the property owner. Now, if a property owner threatens NYCB about being unable to pay their mortgage (I’ve been in these type of conversations in past lives), NYCB will just say tough - talk to my repo guy, Citadel, over here he will give you a sweet deal (for him) to get you out of your property troubles.

I don’t own the NYCB-U shares. They are different from normal preferreds and are backed by a subordinate bond due in 2051. Their dividends are cumulative. Their price also flew the most when the investor news was issued.

I’m still anticipating volatility over the next few days because many of the people who saw their investment almost go to zero will be happy to get out, while many new investors will jump in (or double down) now that survival is not an immediate concern.

I bought 200 shares of VLY-O while NYCB was halted today. I’ll hold those shares forever.

chasesfish

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4469
  • Age: 43
  • Location: Florida
Re: buy bank stocks on the dip
« Reply #595 on: March 06, 2024, 05:23:51 PM »
Congrats on the VLY-O purchases!

One (amatuer) bank analyst I follow pointed out the bull case for NYCB is now as follows:

NYC rent control / rates are set by a nine member board.

Two tenants
Two landlords
Five Mayoral appointments

The bank is now backed by the former Treasury Secretary and the CEO is from the OCC.   These guys know how to navigate the buerocracy necessary to sway the Mayor and/or his political appointees to get the business of NYC multifamily back to some sembelence of break even. 

I have zero clue how the prefs will be treated, but judging by the market's reaction, they believe it will be favorable.    This was the game theory I was hoping for when I was playing with FRC prefs last year.  That burned me away from these.

ChpBstrd

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 8307
  • Location: A poor and backward Southern state known as minimum wage country
Re: buy bank stocks on the dip
« Reply #596 on: March 07, 2024, 07:15:02 AM »
This morning the headlines say that NYCB announced that:
Quote
Customers of New York Community Bank (NYCB) pulled $6 billion worth of deposits between February 5 and March 5, leaving the bank’s deposit base 7% lower, at $77 billion.

And they're apparently cutting the dividend again. There's going to be some movement at the open!
« Last Edit: March 07, 2024, 07:16:40 AM by ChpBstrd »

daverobev

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4059
  • Location: France
Re: buy bank stocks on the dip
« Reply #597 on: March 11, 2024, 08:06:58 AM »
How much risk is there with the VLY prefs here? Like, I don't really care about growth if I'm getting 10%, I'd happily sell everything and take 10% for life, you know?

ChpBstrd

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 8307
  • Location: A poor and backward Southern state known as minimum wage country
Re: buy bank stocks on the dip
« Reply #598 on: March 11, 2024, 09:33:13 AM »
How much risk is there with the VLY prefs here? Like, I don't really care about growth if I'm getting 10%, I'd happily sell everything and take 10% for life, you know?
VLYPO is selling at a higher yield (10.38%) than NYCB-PRA (9%).

The NYCB preferreds got a big boost from the $1.1B dilution. They are priced based on the probability of their dividend continuing versus an outcome like dividends being suspended due to NYCB going bankrupt. The new investment reduced the probability of that outcome. So a superficial interpretation is the market considers VLY to be riskier than NYCB.

Plot twist: Both VLYPO and NYCB-PRA were issued with a fixed rate coupon that converts to an adjustable rate at some point. VLYPO switched to adjustable in June 2022, and currently pays LIBOR+3.578%. NYCB-PRA is still in its fixed period, but will pay LIBOR+3.821% after 3/17/2027. (source)

This complicates comparisons between the two, because the future cash flows are affected differently by changes in interest rates. VLYPO yields more today because markets anticipate rate cuts between now and 3/2027 that will lower VLYPO's dividend. NYCB-PRA will have a consistent dividend between now and 3/2027 (assuming for both no preferred dividend cut).

Overall I'm not enthusiastic about preferred yields right now. With high-yield spreads near 10-year lows, there's hardly any incentive to reach for yield rather than locking in +2.5% real yields on much safer bonds. We're again approaching the TINA environment of the 20-teens, when earning 1-2% more on fixed income was the difference between sleeping at night or not sleeping at night!

The Fed is dragging their feet on rate cuts. Over the past year, the market's estimated start date for rate cuts has been pushed back about 10 months. The longer real rates stay this high or rise higher, the lower the odds of a soft landing. It just doesn't seem like the time to load up on fixed income risk. VLY and NYCB represent the intersection of business risk plus interest rate risk. The risks are multiplied by each other because the sort of economic environment that would lead to business risk for these banks is the sort of economic environment in which LIBOR would be cut back to almost nothing.

EscapeVelocity2020

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5232
  • Age: 51
  • Location: Houston
    • EscapeVelocity2020
Re: buy bank stocks on the dip
« Reply #599 on: March 11, 2024, 09:51:07 AM »
Anything we need to know about the end of the Fed Bank Term Funding Program?  https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-03-11/end-of-fed-tool-that-buoyed-us-banks-puts-reserves-in-spotlight?srnd=homepage-americas
Quote
The Bank Term Funding Program, which was established in March 2023 to restore confidence in the financial system after the collapse of Silicon Valley Bank, is set to stop doling out loans by Monday’s close. That’s reigniting the debate over whether the US financial system has the tools it needs to keep ample cash on hand.

One interesting point was about the Fed trying to push borrowing from its discount window -
Quote
As a result, many of the loans will likely be replaced with other sources of funding. One option is the Fed’s discount window — long seen by markets as a last resort and signal of distress — which the central bank is trying to rebrand as an everyday tool.  Fed Chair Jerome Powell last week told lawmakers the central bank needs to boost the facility’s reputation.