Author Topic: buy bank stocks on the dip  (Read 52806 times)

chasesfish

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Re: buy bank stocks on the dip
« Reply #150 on: March 31, 2023, 03:18:45 PM »
I handicap option d-g options in the 20% range.

a-c all result in a $20ish pref stock, just a question of the pace it takes to get there.

The 5yrT closed at 3.584% at quarter end vs. a 4% quarter end as of 12/31/2023.   That will help every bank, three months less duration on lets call it the Q2 2022 and earlier bond book.

It'll be interesting to see the comments across the industry on deposit cost.   Interesting chart here, the data set should update into the chart tomorrow or money, hopefully the pace of exits decline.

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/DPSACBW027SBOG

ChpBstrd

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Re: buy bank stocks on the dip
« Reply #151 on: April 03, 2023, 11:57:34 AM »
It'll be interesting to see the comments across the industry on deposit cost.   Interesting chart here, the data set should update into the chart tomorrow or money, hopefully the pace of exits decline.

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/DPSACBW027SBOG

Yes, that data series shows that deposits aren't just moving from smaller banks to TBTF banks. They must also be flowing into treasuries (see the falling yields indicating demand), money market funds, or mattresses.

But in the grand scheme of things, bank deposits "only" fell to where we were in August 2021, when the last of the stimulus checks were being deposited. Deposits are still well above the pre-pandemic trend. Certainly falling that far can create asset/liability imbalances for banks, but it's hard to quantify the impact. Deposits have never in modern history gone down for more than a few months at a time (such as in 2008), and suddenly we've gone back in time 19 months.


In that way, Deposits is kinda like M1 and M2. We're in uncharted territory with the money supply rapidly contracting.

chasesfish

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Re: buy bank stocks on the dip
« Reply #152 on: April 03, 2023, 04:13:47 PM »
We will know a lot of data in the next three weeks about deposit flows out of small banks and into TBTFs,  but early rumblings are it's a non-issue.   

EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: buy bank stocks on the dip
« Reply #153 on: April 03, 2023, 06:52:20 PM »
Any thoughts on how to gauge the slowdown in lending which is supposed to be equivalent to a FFR increase?  For additional background - Take aways from Powell's last announcement

Quote
-Powell predicted that banks are going to tighten lending. At another point he said that if that prediction didn't occur, we might need more rate hikes. In another answer, he said bank credit tightening will "substitute for rate hikes". This is an admission that the bank squeeze will be doing the Fed's work for them, and a rationale for pausing rate hikes below the 12-month rate of inflation. He left open the possibility that banks won't tighten their lending, and I can see reasons why that might occur.

I'm watching the FedWatch Tool which has crept toward another 25 bps hike May 3rd, but that may be in response to the increase in oil price...

ChpBstrd

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Re: buy bank stocks on the dip
« Reply #154 on: April 03, 2023, 08:57:06 PM »
Any thoughts on how to gauge the slowdown in lending which is supposed to be equivalent to a FFR increase?  For additional background - Take aways from Powell's last announcement

Quote
-Powell predicted that banks are going to tighten lending. At another point he said that if that prediction didn't occur, we might need more rate hikes. In another answer, he said bank credit tightening will "substitute for rate hikes". This is an admission that the bank squeeze will be doing the Fed's work for them, and a rationale for pausing rate hikes below the 12-month rate of inflation. He left open the possibility that banks won't tighten their lending, and I can see reasons why that might occur.

I'm watching the FedWatch Tool which has crept toward another 25 bps hike May 3rd, but that may be in response to the increase in oil price...
I agree that the bank squeeze will tighten lending, as banks will need to hold extra cash to guard against the risk of bank runs. In practical terms that means accepting loan and interest payments but not loaning that money back out right away.

As @chasesfish noted above, any time a bank can take in a payment on a low-interest-rate loan, and redeploy those funds into a high-interest-rate loan, they adjust their asset base incrementally closer to returning a high interest rate. Resetting the asset base is eventually necessary because the banks' cost of capital rises as interest rates continue to rise. I just loaned some capital to a couple of banks at 5.2% interest, and those banks are probably holding lots of 3-4% loans and bonds.

So banks are torn right now between the need to raise cash by not making loans, and the need to make new loans to reset their asset base to match higher interest rates. Hoarding cash resolves the immediate risk of bank runs, but it worsens the long-run risk of having to pay depositors higher rates than their loan and securities portfolios yield.

The new federal credit facility addresses the risk of bank runs, but it only buys time for banks that eventually need to recycle some capital into new loans and securities.

The risk is that a recession could stop people from buying houses, cars, kitchen remodels, business equipment, card purchases, and so forth. Also during a recession, businesses will reduce their deposit base - e.g. the payroll account needs less funds when you go from 50 to 20 employees and businesses will face challenges matching the timing of their receivables with their payables. At that point, the banks will lose the option to replace old loans with new, because the loan demand will dry up.

If rates were to continue rising and banks are unable to reset their asset base to match those higher rates, we'll see bank bankruptcies instead of bank runs. Banks will be liquid thanks to the federal loan program, but their lack of profitability will send equity into the negative.

That's why I think the futures markets might be wrong about a May rate hike. JPow could justify a pause at this point by saying (a) he warned about a pause in March, (b) monthly inflation has been falling for the past several months, (c) he doesn't want to add pressure to banks, (d) we can always raise rates at a more cautious pace in the coming months, and (e) bank stresses are expected to match the effect of positive real interest rates.

Of course, that's the *right* thing to do, IMO, not the thing the FOMC will *actually* do. So far Fed officials seem to be compartmentalizing the inflation and bank run problems, and treating them separately. Powell's insistence at the last press conference that the bank loan program isn't QE reflects this thought dynamic.

I've not been this uncertain about the Fed's next move for the past 12 months. I considered dropping some play money into a long straddle or strangle on XLF or KRE because pause or hike, financial stocks should move big on May 3.

chasesfish

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Re: buy bank stocks on the dip
« Reply #155 on: April 04, 2023, 04:04:07 AM »
I can tell you that lending is much tighter in commercial real estate.

It's tough to gauge demand because in most markets anywhere from 25-50% of the banks are "full".    That means the banks that are still lending are all busier than they can stand but also filling up.

There are regulatory limits to how much of tangible common equity (TCE) can be in commercial real estate, maybe that number is 400%, and depressed stock prices mean no bank wants to issue equity in a down round.   So long before a bank hits those numbers, they cut the faucet off.   First they'll tighten property types, then they'll say "no new customers", then finally "no new CRE loans".

Why are they filling up?  Plenty of developers and value add operators have good projects they're opting not to sell or refinance right now.  Mostly they either don't like the price they can get, it's a fine asset generating cash, and they don't want to refinance it out of the banking system like they typically do because non-bank permanent money has expensive prepayment penalties if rates fall.  (CMBS and LifeCos)

Meanwhile every bank still wants to make "Commercial and Industrial Loans", basically loans to operating companies.   There's usually way more supply for these loans then demand.  That'll continue because these companies bring a bunch of other business.   My old company used to make these loans as loss leaders because of all the other business that came with it.

The senior loan officer survey is out at the end of April and will give the official metrics on tighter/loser that the fed uses. 


As for the economy?   Hell, it's interesting.  The interest rate sensitive side is hurting and jobs that involve sitting at computers sending emails.   But if someone can turn a wrench or drive a truck?  Demographics are handing them the best economy they've seen in decades with no signs of slowing.


reeshau

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Re: buy bank stocks on the dip
« Reply #156 on: April 04, 2023, 05:27:02 AM »
As for the economy?   Hell, it's interesting.  The interest rate sensitive side is hurting and jobs that involve sitting at computers sending emails.   But if someone can turn a wrench or drive a truck?  Demographics are handing them the best economy they've seen in decades with no signs of slowing.

Also entry-level service jobs in travel & leisure, restaurants, and retail.  Travel is also booming, or at least is supply-constrained at the airlines, and still increasing from the pandemic-depressed levels.  So, it's fairly easy to find *something.*

And daycare is hard to classify.  It may be a limiting factor on the participation rate.  But it does not seem that there are any significant players looking to fill the gap.  Large employers can contemplate it as a perk, but many of those service employers can't do that by themselves.  If it were solved, the labor supply might jump up, and relieve wage inflation.

EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: buy bank stocks on the dip
« Reply #157 on: April 04, 2023, 07:54:18 AM »
I have been feeling like the wheels are about to fall off this economy for so long now it just feels normal and sustainable :)  So many crazy things are happening all at once (bank failures, Fed rescues, meme stocks, crypto, low unemployment, an oil shock...) that it all somehow balances out.

chasesfish

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Re: buy bank stocks on the dip
« Reply #158 on: April 04, 2023, 03:13:40 PM »
Daycare, what a cluster.

The answer to make it affordable is simple, allow more children per staff member, but the government wants to make that decision instead of the parents and it prices some people out of childcare.

I remember financing a few daycares, I thought running that business was the ultimate nightmare.   The skill set to do it right is easily a $150,000+ job in the corporate world. 

reeshau

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Re: buy bank stocks on the dip
« Reply #159 on: April 04, 2023, 09:14:13 PM »
Western Alliance Bank announced the date for its Q1 earnings.  In today's press release, the bank also updated its deposit and liquidity position, as of 3/31:

In addition, Western Alliance Bank (“Western Alliance” or the “Bank”), the primary subsidiary of Western Alliance Bancorporation, today provided the following unaudited financial information as of March 31, 2023:

Total insured deposits, including collateralized and pass-through insured deposits, represent approximately 68% of total deposits, significantly higher than year-end.
As of quarter-end, immediately available liquidity (on-balance sheet liquidity and unused borrowing capacity) exceeded uninsured deposits, with a coverage ratio greater than 140%.
As of quarter-end, the Bank had no borrowings outstanding from the Federal Reserve’s discount window after balance sheet repositioning. Western Alliance expects its CET1 ratio to be materially consistent with year-end 2022.
Unrealized losses on Securities and Held for Investment (HFI) loans have improved since year-end primarily due to lower interest rates, as well as other factors.
Estimated gross unrealized losses were:
HTM securities - $139 million ($107 million after-tax), down from $177 million at year-end.
Available-for-Sale securities - $789 million ($608 million after-tax), down from $881 million at year-end.
HFI loans - $2.9 billion ($2.2 billion after-tax), down from $4.2 billion at year-end.
Partially offset by unrealized gains on debt and other borrowings of $431 million ($332 million after-tax), up from $121 million as of year-end.
Western Alliance maintains non-interest bearing deposits in excess of residential loans, which are the primary contributor to unrealized losses on HFI loans.

Kenneth A. Vecchione, President and CEO of Western Alliance Bank, concluded, “Western Alliance’s uniquely flexible, diversified business model positioned us to weather the liquidity tightness that enveloped the industry over the past month. Put simply, Western Alliance Bank is different; this diversification continues to distinguish us from monoline or sector-concentrated peer banks. This also demonstrates the value of Western Alliance’s scalable national funding channels and allows us to continue to serve clients across sectors, geographies, or macro trends.”

bwall

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Re: buy bank stocks on the dip
« Reply #160 on: April 05, 2023, 04:59:45 AM »
@reeshau ;

That's good information, thank you for finding and posting. I think the regional banks' earnings calls will be closely watched this quarter, and rightfully so.

Western Alliance is putting its best foot forward, as to be expected. The report reads very positive. My question is 'what are they not telling us'? In other words, I'm looking for lies of omission, not lies of commission.

However, I don't know enough about banking / bank earning reports to be able to find the lies of omission. :( :(

reeshau

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Re: buy bank stocks on the dip
« Reply #161 on: April 05, 2023, 05:41:36 AM »
Somehow, WAL is down 5% pre-market, so certainly there are some skeptics.

You could read a lot into "No outstanding borrowings from the Federal Reserve's discount window."  The way it's worded, dis they need some short-term?  Or is it because the data was as of March 31, and while not a formal report, will be filed with the SEC?

I honestly don't think it matters.  Banks borrow from each other short-term in the normal course of business.  I wouldn't doubt that mechanism was all but frozen for those 2 weeks, as everyone worried about their cash position.  So the discount window likely got used for non-dire reasons.

ChpBstrd

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Re: buy bank stocks on the dip
« Reply #162 on: April 05, 2023, 06:33:08 AM »
CEO's are typically optimistic towards shareholders in all industries. Consider the following quote:

Quote
"The support we are seeing from our top supplier partners demonstrates the staying power of our brands and our potential for sustainable improvement.  We know the performance and value of our business today is not representative of our full potential.  Our entire organization is focused on expanding and accelerating improvement.  We are doing what we must to sustain our business immediately and unlock our true value over the long-term – for all stakeholders.

That's from Sue Gove, the CEO of Bed, Bath, and Beyond. They could file for bankruptcy within a matter of weeks. They cannot afford to buy inventory and are doing consignment sales. BBBY stock is currently worth 36 cents. But listen to that optimism and determination.

At some level, leadership is indistinguishable from theater.

chasesfish

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Re: buy bank stocks on the dip
« Reply #163 on: April 05, 2023, 06:39:34 AM »
I think they're down because basically....

Good banks don't come out with interim statements about their capital.

Saying nothing is better than saying something

ChpBstrd

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Re: buy bank stocks on the dip
« Reply #164 on: April 05, 2023, 07:20:19 AM »
We've seen the doom headlines about commercial real estate, but here are some numbers from the CIO of Morgan Stanley to suggest CRE might be the next shoe to drop:

Quote
“More than 50% of the $2.9 trillion in commercial mortgages will need to be renegotiated in the next 24 months when new lending rates are likely to be up by 350 to 450 basis points,” Shalett writes. Alarmingly, Shalett notes that regional banks accounted for 70% to 80% of all new loan originations in the past cycle...

Quote
She said office properties were already facing “secular headwinds” from remote work, and she now sees a wipeout with vacancy rates close to a 20-year high: “MS & Co. analysts forecast a peak-to-trough CRE price decline of as much as 40%, worse than in the Great Financial Crisis.”
Source: https://finance.yahoo.com/news/morgan-stanley-analysts-forecasting-something-191335936.html

So owners of office buildings, including REITs, may not be generating sufficient rent to qualify for a refinance at higher interest rates. If a sufficient number of under-occupied office buildings go on the market at the same time, we could get the 40% price decline described here.

I was one of the first people sent home to work when COVID-19 hit. Things kept chugging along fine via Microsoft Teams, Salesforce, and softphones. That's when I realized we are at one of those inflection points when a new technology makes a bunch of old infrastructure obsolete.

This time, it isn't consumer electronics like cathode-ray-tube TVs or 3G cell phones which can just be thrown out with the trash. This time, it's most of our downtown city infrastructure, representing enormous sums of money tied up in bank loans and investor equity. Urban areas have undergone 30-year cycles of expansion and decline for the last century. The latest up cycle started in the 1990s as crime declined, sitcoms moved to inner cities, and urban living became trendy. The Work-From-Home trend might persuade people to work from suburbs or even small towns instead of paying outrageous housing expenses in big cities. A sudden drop in urban office demand and residential demand could be followed by the hollowed-out ghost town scenes we last saw in the 1970s and 1980s.

reeshau

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Re: buy bank stocks on the dip
« Reply #165 on: April 05, 2023, 07:44:01 AM »
Bloomberg is citing a number of analyst notes that mention that WAL did not include a deposit balance in this update, the first to do so:

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/western-alliance-drops-lack-details-123419903.html

Omission, indeed.

reeshau

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Re: buy bank stocks on the dip
« Reply #166 on: April 05, 2023, 01:36:12 PM »
Given the negative market reaction and analyst commentary, Western Alliance has issued an update today, summarizing its deposits:

PHOENIX -- Western Alliance Bancorporation (“Western Alliance” or the “Bank”) (NYSE: WAL), the holding company for Western Alliance Bank, today provides additional unaudited financial information and clarifies deposit levels as of March 31, 2023:

•End of quarter total deposits were $47.6 billion compared to $53.6 billion as of December 31, 2022.

◦As noted previously, the Bank experienced elevated net deposit outflows surrounding the announcements of the Silicon Valley Bank and Signature Bank closures in mid-March, concentrated primarily in our Technology and Innovation and Settlement Services groups, with net outflows falling sharply and returning to normalized levels by March 17.

◦Since March 20, deposit balances stabilized and grew approximately $900 million to quarter end.

◦Since March 31, quarter-to-date deposit growth has continued this trajectory and increased an additional $1.2 billion as of April 4.

•Total insured deposits, including collateralized and pass-through insured deposits, represent approximately 68% of total deposits, significantly higher than year-end. This increase in the proportion of insured deposits following the elevated outflows in mid-March was driven almost entirely by strong utilization and growth in reciprocal deposits and collateralized deposits for clients.

chasesfish

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Re: buy bank stocks on the dip
« Reply #167 on: April 05, 2023, 02:42:05 PM »
Recent newsletter dropped by one of the better brains in the bank investing space:  How the best bank managements are getting ahead of issues

The CRE commentary is very accurate IMO. 

ChpBstrd

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Re: buy bank stocks on the dip
« Reply #168 on: April 05, 2023, 03:45:59 PM »
Recent newsletter dropped by one of the better brains in the bank investing space:  How the best bank managements are getting ahead of issues

The CRE commentary is very accurate IMO.

I can't say that was an easy read. The author has a very stream-of-conciousness style with lots of unstated assumptions and insider metaphors. Yet it was an interesting take from someone with boots on the ground and contacts on the phone.

Quote
I keep looking for higher-risk CRE assets and I keep finding them in REITs, CMBS and funds. This by no means leaves banks “immune” or “insulated” given their collateral is revalued off forced selling from these entities, but it helps us understand the distressed waterfall.
Quote
...as far as I can tell the early victims of the shift are REITs and loan funds (with shrapnel emanating from their 2021 underwriting). As one multi-family borrower told me “Banks only give 60-65% loan to value and are difficult to deal with, so everyone uses these s——y debt funds”.
Quote
The Shift is what I call the transition from 4% cap rates to 6%, in which the value of a property may fall 30-50% depending on occupancy and lease rates, compelling asset repositioning.

This prompted me to add RC and ABR on my "short ideas" watchlist for further research, alongside the usual SBCs and mortgage insurers. I wonder if these "shadow banks" represent the "s--y debt funds" described by the borrower quoted above.

If they have lower lending standards and were offering higher leverage than regulated banks then I would agree with the author that they'll be the first to fall. I suspect that is the case.

ABR conveniently has a stock price history going back to 2004, which helps me comprehend the magnitude of what to expect next.

bwall

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Re: buy bank stocks on the dip
« Reply #169 on: April 05, 2023, 06:54:03 PM »
Given the negative market reaction and analyst commentary, Western Alliance has issued an update today, summarizing its deposits:

PHOENIX -- Western Alliance Bancorporation (“Western Alliance” or the “Bank”) (NYSE: WAL), the holding company for Western Alliance Bank, today provides additional unaudited financial information and clarifies deposit levels as of March 31, 2023:

•End of quarter total deposits were $47.6 billion compared to $53.6 billion as of December 31, 2022.

◦As noted previously, the Bank experienced elevated net deposit outflows surrounding the announcements of the Silicon Valley Bank and Signature Bank closures in mid-March, concentrated primarily in our Technology and Innovation and Settlement Services groups, with net outflows falling sharply and returning to normalized levels by March 17.

◦Since March 20, deposit balances stabilized and grew approximately $900 million to quarter end.

◦Since March 31, quarter-to-date deposit growth has continued this trajectory and increased an additional $1.2 billion as of April 4.

•Total insured deposits, including collateralized and pass-through insured deposits, represent approximately 68% of total deposits, significantly higher than year-end. This increase in the proportion of insured deposits following the elevated outflows in mid-March was driven almost entirely by strong utilization and growth in reciprocal deposits and collateralized deposits for clients.

Translated:

* It's SVB's fault.
* It's over
* It's over
* Mumbo-jumbo, "It's just fine! Don't question me, boy!"

Put those together = they tried to say nothing, but were forced to say something.


chasesfish

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Re: buy bank stocks on the dip
« Reply #170 on: April 06, 2023, 09:20:32 AM »
Inflation just hit a brick wall

https://investor.costco.com/news/news-details/2023/Costco-Wholesale-Corporation-Reports-March-Sales-Results/default.aspx

Costco consistently grows sales at +/-3% over the rate of inflation.   Same store sales ex. gas were only up 0.5% for the month of march.

Rates may finally stop being raised.

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Re: buy bank stocks on the dip
« Reply #171 on: April 06, 2023, 09:35:10 AM »
Inflation just hit a brick wall

https://investor.costco.com/news/news-details/2023/Costco-Wholesale-Corporation-Reports-March-Sales-Results/default.aspx

Costco consistently grows sales at +/-3% over the rate of inflation.   Same store sales ex. gas were only up 0.5% for the month of march.

Rates may finally stop being raised.

That's what I thought as well, that and the increased number of unemployment claims - good excuses to stop now.

chasesfish

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Re: buy bank stocks on the dip
« Reply #172 on: April 06, 2023, 05:43:48 PM »
Your 1Q Bank Result CheckList:

Courtesy of @Corpuscol on Twitter

1) cheap deposits now create most of the value in banking while most loans (ex cards) destroy value.  How much did the $ of deposits with rates <1% change from 4Q?  Was the change in volume more than offset by wider spreads vs. avg fed funds?

2) did loans grow vs 4Q?  If they were facing very tight liquidity, they would strangle loan growth

3) did borrowings grow?  It's not cheap to borrow right now, so if they did it was for liquidity reasons - not great.

4) how much did the loan yield rise vs how much did the deposit rates rise?  In other words, will the lines cross and your dividend disappear before the Fed folds and starts printing $ again

5) what's the mtm TCE/A ratio after writing down both AFS & HTM bonds?  If it's less than 3%, the feds might strongarm the bank into an amazing painful equity raise

6)  NPAs will start to go up fast at some point, get alarmed if the bank's rise by more than 0.5% of loans from 4Q

7) on May 1, look at the call reports to see how much brokered deposits they added at QE* (Sched RC-E) - and how the early stage delinquencies look (RC-N).

* probably part of that WAL QE # BTW

chasesfish

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Re: buy bank stocks on the dip
« Reply #173 on: April 08, 2023, 05:01:12 AM »
First Republic dropped a Friday evening press release suspending preferred dividends.

I expected it, but still not fun.  This thing is still fighting for survival.

https://ir.firstrepublic.com/static-files/00b73961-f339-4019-ae74-241dfa6b7ce2

bwall

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Re: buy bank stocks on the dip
« Reply #174 on: April 08, 2023, 06:07:15 AM »
Thanks for posting.

I notice FRC also pushed back their quarterly report by about two weeks, compared to historical dates. Typically not a good sign either. They want to buy as much time as possible before having to reckon with a quarterly report that's going to be bad.

chasesfish

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Re: buy bank stocks on the dip
« Reply #175 on: April 08, 2023, 08:38:23 AM »
Thanks for posting.

I notice FRC also pushed back their quarterly report by about two weeks, compared to historical dates. Typically not a good sign either. They want to buy as much time as possible before having to reckon with a quarterly report that's going to be bad.

I don't necessarily think that's as big of a red flag.  There will be lots of consultation with auditors and regulators about impairments to goodwill, non-performing assets, and bond marks.  They're alive at the willingness of the regulators right now.   FRC was traditionally a week early for their size.  Huntington, a similar size bank without issues, reports on April 20th. 

bwall

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Re: buy bank stocks on the dip
« Reply #176 on: April 08, 2023, 09:06:50 AM »
I don't necessarily think that's as big of a red flag.  There will be lots of consultation with auditors and regulators about impairments to goodwill, non-performing assets, and bond marks.  They're alive at the willingness of the regulators right now.   FRC was traditionally a week early for their size.  Huntington, a similar size bank without issues, reports on April 20th.

Fair enough. Makes sense.

ChpBstrd

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Re: buy bank stocks on the dip
« Reply #177 on: April 10, 2023, 10:51:32 AM »
First Republic dropped a Friday evening press release suspending preferred dividends.

I expected it, but still not fun.  This thing is still fighting for survival.

https://ir.firstrepublic.com/static-files/00b73961-f339-4019-ae74-241dfa6b7ce2
Preferreds are down 10-12% to 52-week lows.

This is exactly why I was afraid to buy before the dividend announcement, but now I'm afraid to buy based on their exposure to CRE. Already-bad office occupancy numbers are only going to get worse as we go into recession, and a re-run of the 1980's-1990's S&L crisis seems inevitable.

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Re: buy bank stocks on the dip
« Reply #178 on: April 10, 2023, 02:35:39 PM »
Fair enough.

The market is pricing in a 75% chance of failure at this point.   There's a narrative that supports it:  Not an old enough franchise base, FRC advisors bolting hurting the value of the AUM business, and yield curve staying inverted.

Not sure if it's a 75% chance though, we'll see.   I'm certainly full and not adding more at this point.

ChpBstrd

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Re: buy bank stocks on the dip
« Reply #179 on: April 10, 2023, 03:16:07 PM »
It is amazing though, how many people were apparently holding FRC preferreds only on the hope the dividend didn’t get cut. Then they all sold at once when it was cut.

Hell, even Citigroup, BAC, and JP Morgan cut their dividends in ‘08.

chasesfish

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Re: buy bank stocks on the dip
« Reply #180 on: April 10, 2023, 07:25:33 PM »
It is amazing though, how many people were apparently holding FRC preferreds only on the hope the dividend didn’t get cut. Then they all sold at once when it was cut.

Hell, even Citigroup, BAC, and JP Morgan cut their dividends in ‘08.

Strange.  At the moment they took $30bil in deposits from other banks, I expected the pref dividends to be toast.

Still don't know if it'll be failed or just zombie on.   I probably need to buy some MTB before the sale is over, might as well get a good bank

bwall

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Re: buy bank stocks on the dip
« Reply #181 on: April 11, 2023, 05:31:23 AM »

Strange.  At the moment they took $30bil in deposits from other banks, I expected the pref dividends to be toast.

Still don't know if it'll be failed or just zombie on.   I probably need to buy some MTB before the sale is over, might as well get a good bank

My money (figuratively) is on 'just zombie on'.
YMMV.

chasesfish

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Re: buy bank stocks on the dip
« Reply #182 on: April 11, 2023, 09:26:07 AM »
Update:  I bought 50 shares or so of MTB this morning. 

Seems like we're back to the "watching paint dry" portion of bank investing.

For those interested in CRE, a good chart about where the maturities are by lender type.   

https://twitter.com/colarion/status/1645610451949047810?s=20

ChpBstrd

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Re: buy bank stocks on the dip
« Reply #183 on: April 11, 2023, 12:36:56 PM »
Update:  I bought 50 shares or so of MTB this morning. 

Seems like we're back to the "watching paint dry" portion of bank investing.

For those interested in CRE, a good chart about where the maturities are by lender type.   

https://twitter.com/colarion/status/1645610451949047810?s=20
I've held 200 shares of MTB since 3/28/23 as part of a covered call strategy (initially 130 strike, but then I rolled down to 125 strike). My breakeven, after these two credits, is $115.69 and my two calls expire on the 21st. The stock has gone down, but I'm still up half a percent!

I might roll down to the 120 on Friday or Monday, depending on what volatility is doing and assuming the stock doesn't spike. If volatility is low, I'll probably exit by rolling down to a low strike next week and letting assignment occur. I was right that the Fed's lending program ended the risk of bank runs, but my forecast of a big enthusiasm-driven bank rally did not occur. I shouldn't even be playing in financials at this point in the economic cycle, so I won't mind getting out of MTB in a couple of weeks. It was worth playing for the upside risk though.

chasesfish

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Re: buy bank stocks on the dip
« Reply #184 on: April 11, 2023, 03:44:12 PM »
@ChpBstrd Don't have a covered call outstanding on that one during earnings period.

I'm not sure the market realizes just how well they've managed their bond book yet, they might deliver a big earnings surprise.

ChpBstrd

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Re: buy bank stocks on the dip
« Reply #185 on: April 11, 2023, 04:06:30 PM »
@ChpBstrd Don't have a covered call outstanding on that one during earnings period.

I'm not sure the market realizes just how well they've managed their bond book yet, they might deliver a big earnings surprise.
Good point. Wouldn't miss out on too much theta to just skip Monday.

Quote
[MTB] is expected to post quarterly earnings of $4.10 per share in its upcoming report, which represents a year-over-year change of +50.2%.

Revenues are expected to be $2.37 billion, up 64.2% from the year-ago quarter.
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/m-t-bank-corporation-mtb-140002580.html

If that scenario comes to pass, this beaten-down bank with a pre-earnings PE ratio just above 10 will resemble the growth stocks people get so worked up about. OTOH, those expectations represent a high hurdle. My 125 strikes are only 6% OTM. Being called away at 125 on a cost basis of 115.69 would represent an 8% gain in just 3 weeks.

Also, I've never been afraid to harvest theta from rolling a series of ITM calls. If MTB skyrockets, I might just roll to the next expiration date and collect another $1.75 or so, while enjoying more downside protection.

chasesfish

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Re: buy bank stocks on the dip
« Reply #186 on: April 12, 2023, 04:56:05 AM »
Fair enough.

I don't play as much with covered calls anymore.  I'll forever remember missing out on most of CVX's gain last year, moved up so fast I couldn't easily roll up and out of it.

effigy98

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Re: buy bank stocks on the dip
« Reply #187 on: April 14, 2023, 12:01:50 AM »
Fed is trying to consolidate banks to primary dealers who are shareholders in the fed. That means many bank failures and consolidations will happen. The next step is CDBC (aka foodstamps) for all where they tell us what to buy and when to buy as the money will expire if we don't use it at the fed sponsored vendors. The commercial real estate was going under starting in the GFC, but was rescued by low interest rates for zombification. Now that game can no longer be played for risk of major inflation continueing so the music will stop, the banks will get stuck with these useless empty stores and crime ridden properties that they cannot convert to housing more failures and consolidation. Would avoid bank investments.

ChpBstrd

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Re: buy bank stocks on the dip
« Reply #188 on: April 14, 2023, 07:50:57 AM »
The headline says federal emergency loans to banks are down 50% since mid-March.

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/fed-issued-139-5-billion-in-emergency-loans-to-banks-in-latest-week-down-more-than-50-from-mid-march-31f74635?mod=home-page

Where the journalism get sloppy is the lack of context. Is the total amount lent out down 50% or is the new amount being issued 50% lower than new issues in mid-March? What is the typical duration of these loans - overnight, a few months, years? Journalists wonder why nobody pays for their content, but here's an example of an article that taught me virtually nothing.

daverobev

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Re: buy bank stocks on the dip
« Reply #189 on: April 14, 2023, 09:54:41 AM »
The headline says federal emergency loans to banks are down 50% since mid-March.

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/fed-issued-139-5-billion-in-emergency-loans-to-banks-in-latest-week-down-more-than-50-from-mid-march-31f74635?mod=home-page

Where the journalism get sloppy is the lack of context. Is the total amount lent out down 50% or is the new amount being issued 50% lower than new issues in mid-March? What is the typical duration of these loans - overnight, a few months, years? Journalists wonder why nobody pays for their content, but here's an example of an article that taught me virtually nothing.

Quote
The numbers: Cash-strapped banks borrowed $139.5 billion in emergency lending from the Federal Reserve in the week ended April 12, down $9.4 billion from the prior week, according to data released by the central bank Thursday. That is down from a peak of $300 billion in mid-March, when Silicon Valley Bank collapsed.

Seems clear to me - aren't these basically overnight loans, there is no duration to them. So in other words, $300 billion was outstanding on that facility in mid-March, and now the total lent is down to $140 billion? But what do I know!

chasesfish

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Re: buy bank stocks on the dip
« Reply #190 on: April 14, 2023, 12:58:41 PM »
Lower medium term rates should have allowed most of these banks to take some small losses on their securities book, spread those losses between Q1 and Q2 earnings, and work down their borrowings.

I'm watching earnings today, PNC seems like what to expect from many others.   Decent earnings, but a little tighter margins and a little light on guidance.

chasesfish

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Re: buy bank stocks on the dip
« Reply #191 on: April 17, 2023, 05:27:32 AM »
MTB out today, stock up 4-5% premarket.

Results are good and unsurprising.

Q4 2022 was peak margin.   Q1 2023 down a little in net interest margins, loan provisions up some.   Average interest bearing deposit costs went from just under 1% to just under 2% in the quarter.   They still have 28% or so of their bank funded by 0% cost transaction deposits. 

Bank repurchased 2% of it's stock in the quarter, they have the capital to take advantage of lower prices.   

This will be one that should pay off nicely on the other side.   Underlying earnings of 14-15% on equity, they can pay a 4% dividend and buyback another 6-8% of their stock a year depending on share price. 

EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: buy bank stocks on the dip
« Reply #192 on: April 17, 2023, 09:50:11 AM »
Chasefish & ChpBstrd - I'd love to know the specifics of how you go about making the decision on what to do next.  With Chp, I guess you'll hold the 125 until Friday unless called away and then maybe place another covered call?  If they are filled, will you buy more this week?  How about you CF, do you have a price target / limit order or is this more of a long term hold?

Not trying to be a nosey nelly, I'm interested to hear what strategies people use...  I need to get better about using covered calls, but struggle with possibly missing out on gains... 

ChpBstrd

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Re: buy bank stocks on the dip
« Reply #193 on: April 17, 2023, 12:15:19 PM »
Chasefish & ChpBstrd - I'd love to know the specifics of how you go about making the decision on what to do next.  With Chp, I guess you'll hold the 125 until Friday unless called away and then maybe place another covered call?  If they are filled, will you buy more this week?  How about you CF, do you have a price target / limit order or is this more of a long term hold?

Not trying to be a nosey nelly, I'm interested to hear what strategies people use...  I need to get better about using covered calls, but struggle with possibly missing out on gains...

I'm going to take my gains on Friday. With a cost basis of $115.69 I'll be happy to sell a month later at $125 for an 8% gain or +$1,777. That's not bad for a month's non-work!

I agree with @chasesfish 's assessment that MTB is probably one of the better-run banks, but I maintain that we're in the wrong phase of the economic cycle to be heavy on financials. And I'm actually over-exposed to financials at the moment!

I'm holding $24k of MTB, $20k of OZKAP, and $8.8k of C-N. And I'm holding all these financials at a time when commercial real estate is about to encounter refinancing pains, residential real estate has yet to catch up to the reality of higher rates, and the Fed just might be on autopilot with rate hikes until we crash. My bargain-hunting has got me over-extended and so it makes sense to let MTB go, even as tempted as I'll be to roll out another week. IMO, the time to get back into financials will be when the words "crisis" and "recession" are appearing a lot more often than they are now.

Charles Schwab just announced that they've lost 11% of their deposits in Q1. That means recognition of more losses, more borrowing from Federal Home Loan Banks at high rates, a higher cost of capital, and more consumption of the equity side of the balance sheet by the liabilities side. I think analysts are extending that 11% number to all banks, which mutes the effect of MTB's good news.

To be clear, this isn't a bank run situation. This is just people logically moving cash out of their savings and checking accounts and moving the funds into CDs, treasuries, and other yielding assets where they can bring in 4-5%. This pro-cyclical trend could continue all year, and it'll put the hurt on banks.

Bank CDs are now paying significantly more than comparable treasuries (today's quotes: 4.6% for a 4/30/24 treasury, 5.1% for a 4/24/24 CD from JP Morgan). Maybe for the stressed banks the alternative is more short-term government loans at similar interest rates with more interest rate risk, so they're happy to lock in a cost of capital at 5.1%.

I've been exploiting this situation by buying 5+% yielding CDs from Goldman Sachs, Citigroup, and a worrisome little bank in Texas known as Comerica (I don't count this as financials exposure, because I'm FDIC insured.). I'm considering selling some of my treasuries a few months before maturity to arbitrage this widening gap between risk-free treasuries and risk-free CDs but I probably won't.

I need to balance my reaching for risk-free yield with the agility to pivot into equities if we have a flash crash or acute crisis. That's the game everybody is playing. The desire to maintain flexibility and liquidity explains the gap between yields on risk-free assets. I.e. when I buy a 9-month CD, I'm placing a bet that the "bottom won't be in" and rates won't rise much within the next couple of months while I'm locked in. I think that's true, but I could be wrong.

chasesfish

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Re: buy bank stocks on the dip
« Reply #194 on: April 17, 2023, 03:32:25 PM »
Chasefish & ChpBstrd - I'd love to know the specifics of how you go about making the decision on what to do next.  With Chp, I guess you'll hold the 125 until Friday unless called away and then maybe place another covered call?  If they are filled, will you buy more this week?  How about you CF, do you have a price target / limit order or is this more of a long term hold?

Not trying to be a nosey nelly, I'm interested to hear what strategies people use...  I need to get better about using covered calls, but struggle with possibly missing out on gains...

Short answer I may come back to later...

$BAC - I'll start selling covered calls on it again once it's in the $36 to $38 range.  BofA's risk is consumer credit, I'll wait out my long position for the 20-25% gain.   I won't make the mistake of holding it at 2x book again, there is a price above $40 where there are just better investments. 

$FRC-P should move one way or another after earnings and the dust settles.  Not a lot of money but 6-10k is still meaningful. 

$MTB I'll hold until I see something more attractive, it's some play dollars in the Roth IRA

All the small banks are about buying at or below book value and holding until they're at a 1.3x to 1.5x multiple of book, while closely monitoring the loan book.   I feel pretty good about 100+ year deposit franchises that aren't loaning into bigger projects or bubbly CRE markets.   It's just a question of how bad does the economy get for loan losses to creep up.   These banks can survive a 1.5% loss rate and today it's a fraction of that. 

I still am not finding attractive prices at the $10bil to $200bil bank range outside of MTB.  I'll also watch Huntington's earnings, but so far I want to own it at $9 - $10 and it seems stuck at $11. 

chasesfish

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Re: buy bank stocks on the dip
« Reply #195 on: April 18, 2023, 05:09:01 AM »
Bank of America just crushed earnings this morning.  The stock ran up a bunch over the last four days and is up again pre-market. 

Some interesting stuff.   Deposits down 3% for the quarter.  The narrative of everyone is moving to the TBTF banks doesn't seem to be playing out.

The average rate paid across it's entire deposit book was 0.12% if I'm reading this right.   What an insane cost advantage from being the #1 checking account provider in the the US.

Only a few other things surprising:

- The bank slowed buybacks in the quarter, earned / retained some capital to grow their equity by 2% in the quarter.   Pros and cons there as a shareholder, I'd prefer for them to pickup some $28 shares, but such is bank investing.

- Chargeoffs driven by the consumer business was up, but still below pre-pandemic levels.  The rate is lower than they guided for the year, so the amount set aside for loan loss provisions were actually down compared to last quarter.

- They gave details around their securities book.  The $650bil in Held To Maturity securities scared the market in March.   They disclosed some interest rate hedges against this book and a total yield of 2.9%.   This is up from 2.4% in the last quarter because of the rate swaps.  So the securities book yield went up 0.50% quarter over quarter while deposit costs only went up 0.06%.   They also disclosed the average maturities are 8.5 years and 5.5 years.  They're about average in the industry here and it'll be interesting to see if the runoff of this book matches the runoff in deposits. 

The only thing I can criticize them for as an investor is retaining another $4bil in equity while slightly shrinking the bank, but it results in a more conservative investment than it was a quarter ago.

Good stuff



ChpBstrd

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Re: buy bank stocks on the dip
« Reply #196 on: April 18, 2023, 07:01:56 AM »
Thanks for the summary @chasesfish .

Maybe Schwab got hit so hard by deposit flight because the combined bank/brokerage entity made it easier for clients to chase yield with their surplus account balances? BoA on the other hand might require a transfer, some paperwork to buy an in-house CD, a bunch of other non-routine stuff, etc. It certainly does challenge the narrative of deposit flight, and the narrative that having a better product is good for a company.

If BoA is lowering loan loss provisions, that could be a sign management is living in fantasyland. Do banks have much leeway on this, or are they required to set loan loss provisions based on previous quarters' experience? Is there any incentive not to publish small provisions and then when the losses come say "I was as surprised as anyone!"

BoA's cash hoarding behavior stands in contrast to their rosy loan loss provisioning. It could be that management believes things could get worse and so they'll hold the cash until we're on the other side of the recession / real estate correction / negative equity situation. Or it could be management is building up a war chest to acquire one of these banks with negative equity on a mark-to-market basis, or to be the FDIC's go-to buyer.

Side note: BoA acquired a local bank where I had a free checking account many years ago. They wanted to charge me something like $10/month for the privilege of having a checking account with them. I moved to another local bank where the checking account was both free AND paid interest (see username). My theory is maybe the customers who stayed with BoA rather than avoiding a new $10/mo charge are the ones least likely to worry about getting better interest rates elsewhere, and the least likely to change anything with their accounts as circumstances change. Such customers are nice to have, but hard to obtain any other way than through acquisitions. Hence my theory that BoA is going shopping soon. First you buy the customers, then you raise their costs, then you milk them for years because they're resistant to change. It's not a bad business model IF you underpay for the customers.

chasesfish

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Re: buy bank stocks on the dip
« Reply #197 on: April 18, 2023, 12:40:09 PM »
@ChpBstrd Loan loss provisions get a ton of scrutiny for good reason.  It's actually a battle in finding the middle ground between government agencies.

Provisions are charges against current income, so they reduce the company's tax liability.   If a bank provisions too much, the IRS comes after them.  Google Sandra Janskey and SunTrust if you want a bread.   Interesting stuff, she was fired after the company and IRS got into a battle over the auto loan portfolio reserves being too high.   IRS, SEC, employment discrimination, ect.   (Sandra was right, SunTrust had to raise capital at the bottom and sell their golden ticket (1920s coca cola stock) to survive as a company in the GFC.

Bank of America has the advantage of being at it's regulatory cap on deposits.  They can't really grow, so all new deposits acquired are low cost replacing higher cost.   They've been playing the game for 10 years and are very good at it.   To me the risk with this bank as an investor is either paying too high of a price relative to tangible book value or seeing a combination of higher interest rates + higher corporate rates + recession squeeze their corporate borrowers. 
« Last Edit: April 18, 2023, 12:56:06 PM by chasesfish »

reeshau

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Re: buy bank stocks on the dip
« Reply #198 on: April 19, 2023, 05:46:58 AM »
Very happy with Western Alliance's earnings report yesterday.  I've reviewed the presentation for the call later today, and there is significant detail on assets and deposits, and how they evolved throughout March.

Western Alliance reported Q1 earnings after the close today.

Adjusted EPS was $2.30, vs. ACE of $1.90. GAAP EPS was $1.29.

Revenue was $551.9M, vs. consensus of $670M. Adjusted revenue was $712.2M

Total deposits of $47.6 billion, down $6.1 billion, or 11.3%, as communicated earlier in April

Return on average assets and on tangible common equity of 0.81% and 12.2%, compared to 1.67% and 27.0%, respectively

Adjusted return on average assets and adjusted tangible common equity of 1.43% and 21.9% compared to 1.71% and 27.7%, respectively

CET 1 ratio of 9.4% increased from 9.3%.

Tangible book value per share, net of tax, of $41.56, an increase of 3.3% from $40.25

Efficiency ratio of 43.2%, compared to 39.4%

So, there certainly was an impact in March. Lots of metrics had “adjustments,” many of them very significant. But it seems that things are no worse than the April 4 update, and some are significantly better.  The company moved $6B of assets Held for Investment (held to maturity) to held for sale, taking a $147.8M charge when marking them to the fair market value. This counts for a most of the adjustments made.

chasesfish

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Re: buy bank stocks on the dip
« Reply #199 on: April 20, 2023, 06:39:09 PM »
$WAL had a nice report.   Not necessarily "nice" financially with all the pain they endured, but an exceptional level of detail provided by management, including some day by day stuff, exactly what happened to their stock price, deposit flows, ect.   

They earned the trust of the market and the stock is now valued almost at tangible book value.

I think it'll be a slog for them for a few quarters now, but they've earned the runway to work themselves out of the securities portfolio over time.  A bank trading around tangible book value can raise capital if needed without hosing all the shareholders. 

Everyone who bought them deeply discounted has been rewarded! 

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!