Author Topic: Over Under on Trudeau  (Read 4300 times)

rocketpj

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Over Under on Trudeau
« on: August 24, 2024, 11:57:04 AM »
I have been fairly happy with most of the current government's activities, but of course once anyone is in power for long enough the mistakes and minor scandals start to pile up.  Meanwhile the opposition has been leaning heavily into anti-Trudeau messaging for years.

At first it was fairly obviously the old canard - if you can't attack the facts attack the person.  But those missteps and various crises have all taken their toll, and I think his time is up.

The Cabinet is at a retreat this weekend.  If I was a bettor, I'd bet that they are going to announce his decision to step down - followed by a few months of a leadership campaign before an election next spring.  That way they neuter the attacks against him and get a lot of attention on their policy debates and leadership race.

The other option is he is high on his own supply and thinks he can salvage it, or thinks that only he can save the nation or whatever.  And refuses to step down, in which case they are doomed to lose next year.

Odds?

Moustachienne

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Re: Over Under on Trudeau
« Reply #1 on: August 24, 2024, 02:11:11 PM »
No matter how popular a government might be in its early days, after a period of time "throw the bums out" sentiment takes hold due to actual mistakes and missteps which accumulate over time and to a general wish for new faces and new ideas. In power since 2015, the Trudeau government has reached its sell by date and then some. And I say this as a natural centre-left voter. :)

We don't really have a Canadian tradition of leaders voluntarily stepping down, do we? Liking aging bull elks, they stand their ground till the electorate takes them down. And then the party votes them out as leader.  Pierre Trudeau was a famous exception to this, though. https://theconversation.com/40-years-after-his-famous-walk-in-the-snow-a-look-back-at-pierre-trudeaus-resignation-222936  So maybe Justin will follow that lead?  Pierre did it on his own terms and controlled the narrative. The "walk in the snow" became famous. So I think JT wouldn't step down immediately after obvious pressure, i.e. after this Retreat. There would be a need to save face as with Biden. 

Odds? Good question! I could go either way. I'll say he won't step down now but very well might before the next election.

c-kat

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Re: Over Under on Trudeau
« Reply #2 on: August 24, 2024, 05:56:13 PM »
He should step down. Everyone wants him too but he isn't listening. 

I honestly don't know who would be wiling to run in his place. The liberals are so hated right now, and even a change in leader probably won't stop their ship from sinking. 

I think the Conservatives will win the next election (unless there is some big conservative scandal). The liberals will regroup and pick a new leader and probably be popular again because of things the conservatives do and on it goes.

Retire-Canada

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Re: Over Under on Trudeau
« Reply #3 on: August 24, 2024, 09:31:05 PM »
In some respects Trudeau staying on and taking the loss is a reasonable approach politically. It let's the Liberals start fresh after that with a new leader who can rebuild and contest the next couple elections. Otherwise they get a new leader who doesn't have much time to generate a profile or change anything and the Liberals lose big anyways and then the new leader is damaged and likely has to be replaced and then they start rebuilding with another person in charge. So you either put a sacrificial leader in place to take the hit for the team or you waste a potentially effective long-term leader in a futile effort to win the next election.

The problems the Liberals have are not easily fixed between now and the next election. They are carrying a lot of baggage from the extended time in power. If there is a benefit to changing leaders it could be retaining a few more seats which doesn't affect the power the party can wield, but it does save a few jobs. If you are an MP in a close race that is important to you.

There is some outside possibility that the Conservative sabotage themselves and/or external events make the Liberals a more popular option. Of course that would benefit Trudeau as well as a new leader.


rocketpj

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Re: Over Under on Trudeau
« Reply #4 on: August 25, 2024, 09:06:54 AM »
The classic formula is to step down well before an election and 'hack' the media addiction to breathlessly covering a race by focusing them on the leadership race.  Several months of debate and focus on them, meanwhile the Cons don't have a specific target to campaign against.  Maybe some excitement about the new leader, if someone emerges.  I don't really know who would run for the leadership, but no doubt there are a few options.

I'm not a Liberal voter per se, more of an ABC voter.  Our local MP is Liberal and does a reasonable job, much better than the empty shirt the Cons had in here prior to 2015 who seemed to think he was campaigning in rural Alberta based on the material he sent around.  I'll be waiting to see our local candidates to see which has the best chance of defeating the Con.

c-kat

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Re: Over Under on Trudeau
« Reply #5 on: August 25, 2024, 09:40:53 AM »


I'm not a Liberal voter per se, more of an ABC voter. 

What is an ABC voter? I'm not familiar with the term.

treffpunkt

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Re: Over Under on Trudeau
« Reply #6 on: August 25, 2024, 09:58:10 AM »


I'm not a Liberal voter per se, more of an ABC voter. 

What is an ABC voter? I'm not familiar with the term.

In this context it usually means Anyone but Conservative.

rocketpj

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Re: Over Under on Trudeau
« Reply #7 on: August 26, 2024, 12:48:19 PM »


I'm not a Liberal voter per se, more of an ABC voter. 

What is an ABC voter? I'm not familiar with the term.

In this context it usually means Anyone but Conservative.

Correct.  If I had my druthers we'd have a better electoral system and we could all vote for the party that best represents our personal views.  Sadly, we have the antiquated First Past the Post system, so a vote for a non-competitive party in your riding is basically a throwaway. 

Which means on election day we all must choose the bus that is most likely to carry us closer to our preferred destination.  And avoid the one that you believe will drive us into the ditch.

In my opinion the Conservative party is far too beholden to the oil industry to ever take the climate crisis seriously, and their endless pandering to social conservatives and culture war foolishness is both toxic and an intentional distraction from the first point.  So I tend to vote for whatever party in my riding stands the best chance of slowing them down.

GuitarStv

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Re: Over Under on Trudeau
« Reply #8 on: August 26, 2024, 01:25:36 PM »
Trudeau has generally done a decent job as PM with a few missteps here and there . . . but there's a massive swell of hatred for him now, well beyond what the missteps really warrant.  'Fuck Trudeau' signs have been a regular thing now for ages and ages on my more rural cycling routes, and they're not lessening.

I don't believe that there's much chance of us having a non-conservative federal government after the coming round of elections.  Pollievre doesn't seem to stand for anything at all, he's just riding and amplifying discontentment at every chance . . . so I suspect it will be pretty disappointing to see his actions once he take power.  But hey, I'm rich, white, straight, and am generally healthy with no addictions.  His worst policies will mostly not impact me (other than the total non-action on climate change).

rocketpj

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Re: Over Under on Trudeau
« Reply #9 on: August 30, 2024, 09:39:13 AM »
I agree that the future is not looking bright for the Liberals. There is an incumbency penalty after a decade in office - the Conservatives paid that price in 2015 when Harper overstayed his welcome as well.  It doesn't seem that Trudeau is willing to give it up, which is really a shame, because we can't really put pause on climate action for a few years while we wait for the grownups* to take over again.

*Grownups as in people who don't respond to scientific data about climate change by stomping their feet and screaming 'it's not real'.

sixwings

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Re: Over Under on Trudeau
« Reply #10 on: August 30, 2024, 10:05:15 AM »
Trudeau is cooked and generally it looks like we're going to see a wave of conservative provincial governments. From what I can recall tight now only manitoba and BC have NDP governments and the rest are all conservative/center right parties. And BC is looking like a tight election between the NDP and conservative party. With a federal conservative party that will not be good for climate change and many other issues.

Retire-Canada

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Re: Over Under on Trudeau
« Reply #11 on: August 30, 2024, 10:26:19 AM »
Unfortunately/fortunately these things go in cycles. The Conservatives will get into power and we'll remember why we were happy to be rid of them the last time and we'll elect a new Liberal gov't in a decade or so. Industry wants a stable climate change plan so they can make their own longterm plans/investments. The Conservatives will find that most of the people we want to trade with will have some climate change minimum standards we'll have to meet or face trade restrictions. So they won't have any choice, but to do something. They'll just have to dress it up so it doesn't trigger their base.

rocketpj

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Re: Over Under on Trudeau
« Reply #12 on: August 30, 2024, 04:55:10 PM »
Unfortunately/fortunately these things go in cycles. The Conservatives will get into power and we'll remember why we were happy to be rid of them the last time and we'll elect a new Liberal gov't in a decade or so. Industry wants a stable climate change plan so they can make their own longterm plans/investments. The Conservatives will find that most of the people we want to trade with will have some climate change minimum standards we'll have to meet or face trade restrictions. So they won't have any choice, but to do something. They'll just have to dress it up so it doesn't trigger their base.

You are assuming competence on the part of the Federal Conservatives.  Not a particularly well founded assumption with PP in charge, but I guess we'll get to find out.

PoutineLover

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Re: Over Under on Trudeau
« Reply #13 on: August 30, 2024, 08:39:36 PM »
I really wish we had better options to vote for, and a better electoral system, but also that people were more discerning. Trudeau has done some corrupt things and made some poor decisions, both personally and politically. I understand some of the fatigue and backlash, but I think he's generally a competent leader with ideals and doesn't deserve the level of hate he is getting.

On the other hand, Polievre strikes me as an absolute sleazeball who will say anything to get votes and there's no level he won't stoop to in terms of name calling or lies or cheating. I don't think it's hyperbolic to say that a Conservative majority will set back years of climate progress, equal rights, and civil discourse. It's sad to me that people can't see through his self serving bullshit and that his followers don't care that he stands for nothing but just attacks others.

Give the state of the polls, I think the best case scenario is a Conservative minority that is somewhat kept in check, and a liberal leadership contest that results in a more popular leader who can win the next election, hopefully before 4 years of damage are done. I wish I had enough faith in voters and our system, because the way it's looking now it'll be a Conservative majority and the damage they'll be able to do over a full term unchecked scares me.

Sayyadina

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Re: Over Under on Trudeau
« Reply #14 on: August 30, 2024, 08:54:37 PM »
I've seen other comments online that basically ask how anyone could vote for Trudeau, and like - ugh, for one I'm not in his riding so I don't vote for him - but that aside, I kind of wish I didn't have to support him. Yes, I'm still angry about being under FPTP. But it's not a choice for or against Trudeau, or of Trudeau versus my ideal candidate, it's a choice of Trudeau or PP. And in that scenario, I will absolutely support him because add me as another one in the column of PP is aa sleazeball. And I don't have the straight male thing going for me to help weather whatever gross policies he plans to implement (FFS we just got out of the US. No Canada-lite Project 2025 please).

So I hope the punditry is really wrong, because ABC all the way.

Metalcat

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Re: Over Under on Trudeau
« Reply #15 on: August 31, 2024, 04:55:15 AM »
Unfortunately/fortunately these things go in cycles. The Conservatives will get into power and we'll remember why we were happy to be rid of them the last time and we'll elect a new Liberal gov't in a decade or so. Industry wants a stable climate change plan so they can make their own longterm plans/investments. The Conservatives will find that most of the people we want to trade with will have some climate change minimum standards we'll have to meet or face trade restrictions. So they won't have any choice, but to do something. They'll just have to dress it up so it doesn't trigger their base.

You are assuming competence on the part of the Federal Conservatives.  Not a particularly well founded assumption with PP in charge, but I guess we'll get to find out.

As someone who lives with a very senior carbon-reduction policy person, the liberals are working unfathomably aggressively on solidifying carbon reduction policy that would be extremely difficult to unwind.

PP can blather on about the carbon tax all he wants, but the systems that are being put in place are not easily reversed. He can "axe the tax" but that wouldn't magically absolve the government of the commitments that have been made. He would have to replace it with another policy or else fully dismantle frameworks that govern how the civil service operates moving forward.

A lot of the climate denier stuff is political puppetry. The energy sector is very actively working *with* the government right now on developing legislation moving forward. They're always going to resist being regulated, so having an electorate that doesn't understand policy and is riled up against regulation is useful.

But on a global level, governments aren't stupid and they're very, very actively working on economic incentives to reduce carbon emissions and the energy sector would be absolutely idiotic to not jump on that train as the track is being built.

A conservative government in Canada doesn't have the power to reverse what's happening globally, so PP won't have any inclination to actually slow carbon reduction policy. The vast majority of voters know nothing about it anyway.

Also, Justin won't step down because he's not governing from a place of aiming for reelection. He knows no party can stay in power for much more than 9 years. This is very well established. He's not looking to be electable, he's looking forward to his legacy.

His legacy won't be a series of missteps in a much larger scheme of things. His legacy will be in contrast to Trump. That's how he will be written about in history books, and solidifying federal commitments to carbon reduction policies is a really great way to do that.

The carbon tax is one very specific economic lever that can be pulled. I literally spend a few hours every day hearing about the systems that are currently being developed globally and this shit is fascinating. They're developing an entirely new international system of trade. It's fucking wild.

This shit is moving so fast and with a level of interdepartmental collaboration that I have never seen. And it's not because Canada is leading the way in any way, these systems will come online and we just have to keep up.

Any country that doesn't get their domestic system in order for the global trade of carbon credits will be fucked, so everyone is doing this, it's just so fucking complicated and not yet hammered out, so virtually no one understands it enough to even talk much about it.

The info is out there, but I hear DH almost daily explaining this stuff to senior government officials.

Take a look at CFDs, CCFDs, and ITMOs

https://www.whitecase.com/insight-alert/emerging-fundamentals-climate-mitigation-through-itmo-transactions-under-paris

This is an international economic trade system. PP has zero interest in swimming against this kind of stream. So yeah, he can "axe the tax," but there's no way he bothers pushing back against the massive machine that is going to be remarkably profitable for Canada because we're so well positioned to trade within this global system.

PP is dumb, but he's not *that* dumb.

He would have to blow every ounce of political capital that he has trying to unwind what the liberals are currently putting in place and the public wouldn't even understand what the fuck he was trying to do, all to disadvantage the Canadian economy.

Not gonna happen.

And the energy sector (note that many of these companies now identify as "energy" companies, not O&G companies) are very very actively engaged in determining their role in these new systems moving forward. They smell money and they're eager to cement their place in getting it. Now they're just negotiating the details of what *exactly* can generate a credit and what can't.

They don't want carbon reduction systems stopped. They're not idiots they know peak oil is coming. They know they need to adapt. They'll fight regulation of their industry tooth and nail to squeeze every ounce of profit out of what's left, but they're not actually fighting progress. They're very invested as stakeholders in the next phase.

The media makes it sound like we're still in the dark ages of climate change denial and sitting around doing nothing except for the much maligned carbon tax. But let's not forget that this wheel started turning before the Liberals even took power. Much of the framework for emissions reduction that we're still working with today was set up by the Harper Conservatives, even while he was muzzling climate scientists because he didn't like his particular ways being questioned. That's just what he was like, he ruled top-down, which is rare for Canadian prime ministers, they tend to give the civil service a pretty wide berth to do its thing.

PP is much dumber than Harper. I can't see him being a top-down prime minister because he doesn't really have much of his own ideology. Harper knew exactly what he wanted to be doing, and he had solid support of his own party. PP is a candidate that the part aggressively bullied out of even running in past leadership races, and they basically ended up with him out of attrition.

It's been a PC leadership Russian roulette where it was just a matter of time that the Libs were in too long and whatever candidate was loaded in the barrel when the inevitable loss happened would be the next leader.

And we ended up with *that* guy, who no one has ever liked.

I don't envy him either. It's a BAD time to take over. We all know that it doesn't matter if you inherited a problem, as leader you will get blamed for it.

And he's going to inherit the federal government after Trudeau already largely improved inflation, so he won't get credit for any further progress on that. But he will inherit the housing crisis and collapse of the medical system, which cannot be resolved by federal measures alone. That will require exquisite cooperation with the provinces, which, good fucking luck with that.

He also can't get rid of all the immigrants folks are angry about, so those hostilities will increase and they'll be too valuable a voting population to fully alienate...so...

Yeah, it's not going to be a pleasant job for him. Trudeau came in with the support of an established (corrupt) system of chronies who have been handling this kind of shit for decades since his father. He was surrounded by highly effective (and yes, corrupt) and very very smart people who could get shit done.

PP is propped up by a chaotic band of in-fighters, most of whom would probably happily kill him in his sleep.

I really don't envy that guy, it's really hard to be prime minister when you're dumb and have no friends and you need the provinces to play nice.

It's gonna be a shit show. But the carbon reduction policies will just keep on trucking in the background. That's not my worry at all. I'm worried about the collapse of the medical system and the raging opioid crisis, which will likely get worse under PP and directly impact a lot of us.

micahc

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Re: Over Under on Trudeau
« Reply #16 on: September 01, 2024, 10:23:06 AM »

Voted for Trudeau party on his first term.   Simply because they presented a plan that was easily understood to address climate change and inequality.

What happened: Liberals went back to original play book tax and spend.   Increased taxes by rolling back all conservative tax breaks.   Carbon tax revenue stream instead of being used to create low cost green energy production which had the promise of lowering Ontario's stupidly high cost of energy was given back to people as "Trudeau bucks" actually costing tax payers more by issuing checks.  Would be perfectly happy if Carbon Tax was all kept and spent on another Hydro dam or Nuclear reactor refurbishment.   Anything to lower Ontario cost of electricity.

I'm not going to get into the crony capitalism items because typically all parties are guilty of gifting friends or donors with outsized rewards.

Did not vote for Trudeau for his second term.  I knew he would win due to the other parties candidates being a hot mess.   Trudeau played a perfect idiot and Canadians can forgive an idiot.

What happened: Covid and more Trudeau bucks got sent out with an unexpected surprise of inflation.  Net beneficiaries where only the very rich.  Causing greater inequality in Canada but also the world.  Carbon taxes increased causing inequality to rise as the lower 1/3rd of the population was unable to change or affect the energy they consume which the tax was built to encourage better economic choices.   This caused the government to roll back Carbon Tax on fuel oil specifically.   As a result Canadian now saw it was just another tax and spend grab.

Net effects: Carbon output in Canada roughly the same.  Tax burdens increased which reduces consumers ability to spend.  Substantial increase in government workers employed.  Overall increase in Government waste which includes healthcare.  Only province that is addressing this issue is Alberta.   Ontario healthcare spending is out of control and the quality/service is non-existent.

Trudeau believes that centralized Government bureaucrats can make the best decisions for all Canadians but I think he is underestimating private industry ability to create products or services for people in individual regions and the diversity of problems faced by the now 40 million individuals.

we found out communism sucks.

rocketpj

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Re: Over Under on Trudeau
« Reply #17 on: September 01, 2024, 10:44:41 AM »

we found out communism sucks.

You made somewhat good points from your perspective, but lol you have no idea what communism is if you think that's what we are living under now.

scottish

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Re: Over Under on Trudeau
« Reply #18 on: September 01, 2024, 01:37:36 PM »

Voted for Trudeau party on his first term.   Simply because they presented a plan that was easily understood to address climate change and inequality.

What happened: Liberals went back to original play book tax and spend.   Increased taxes by rolling back all conservative tax breaks.   Carbon tax revenue stream instead of being used to create low cost green energy production which had the promise of lowering Ontario's stupidly high cost of energy was given back to people as "Trudeau bucks" actually costing tax payers more by issuing checks.  Would be perfectly happy if Carbon Tax was all kept and spent on another Hydro dam or Nuclear reactor refurbishment.   Anything to lower Ontario cost of electricity.

I'm not going to get into the crony capitalism items because typically all parties are guilty of gifting friends or donors with outsized rewards.

Did not vote for Trudeau for his second term.  I knew he would win due to the other parties candidates being a hot mess.   Trudeau played a perfect idiot and Canadians can forgive an idiot.

What happened: Covid and more Trudeau bucks got sent out with an unexpected surprise of inflation.  Net beneficiaries where only the very rich.  Causing greater inequality in Canada but also the world.  Carbon taxes increased causing inequality to rise as the lower 1/3rd of the population was unable to change or affect the energy they consume which the tax was built to encourage better economic choices.   This caused the government to roll back Carbon Tax on fuel oil specifically.   As a result Canadian now saw it was just another tax and spend grab.

Net effects: Carbon output in Canada roughly the same.  Tax burdens increased which reduces consumers ability to spend.  Substantial increase in government workers employed.  Overall increase in Government waste which includes healthcare.  Only province that is addressing this issue is Alberta.   Ontario healthcare spending is out of control and the quality/service is non-existent.

Trudeau believes that centralized Government bureaucrats can make the best decisions for all Canadians but I think he is underestimating private industry ability to create products or services for people in individual regions and the diversity of problems faced by the now 40 million individuals.

we found out communism sucks.

This is a bit like my take on the matter.   (Except for communism.   We're a long long way from either Marxist-Leninist communism or real world totalitarian communism.)   

Trudeau's positive impact was 1) he legalized cannabis and 2) the government purchased covid vaccines in a timely manner.    He also rolled out the CERB, which was necessary to keep the economy running, but done in a very sloppy manner.   I call this one neutral.

Many of his policies seem questionable and don't seem to have demonstrated a net positive impact.   Some examples:

1.  Continuing to pump money into the housing market through RSP loans, FHSA's and so on in an attempt to make housing more affordable.
2.  Restricting licensed firearms owners to reduce gun crime.   
3.  Ensuring that suspects are given the least onerous bail requirements.
4.  Admitting over 1M immigrants when we already have infrastructure shortages in health care and homes

One of the policies that really gets on my nerves are the DEI requirements.   White men are now being actively discriminated against both in the public service and in academia.   Postings effectively say "cisgendered white men will not be considered."    Our universities and public service need to be hiring the best people, regardless of their skin colour, sex or religion.   I am a cisgender white man, so I might be a little biased here.   But still - the point isn't to shift the focus of discrimination, it's to *stop discriminating*, period.

I haven't been following the climate negotiations, but they were bound to happen one way or another.  I will comment that the forest fires in central and western Canada have been producing more CO2 than the entire economy for the last couple of years.   If we really care about this, maybe we should get better at shutting down forest fires.

Pierre Poillievre isn't my choice for our next prime minister, and I wish the conservatives had found a better leader.   (I voted for Jean Charest, but that was a lost cause)

micahc

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Re: Over Under on Trudeau
« Reply #19 on: September 01, 2024, 02:41:38 PM »
Realistically.   It comes down to.  Do I feel that I am better off today than 9 year ago.  Not at all.

Even though for the last 3 years I have received raises in my overall salary.


Do I feel that any federal political party plans to or will do the following:  (Not a chance in hell).

  Remove any tariff/tax within Canada or world wide that increases the cost of daily goods. (other than strategic goods).
  For that matter have any simple easily implementable ideas to reduce daily goods costs.  (Instead of blaming a supermarket chain store).

  Want to address the growing inequality within the country.  (Rich continue to acquire assets the middle class are forced to sell to survive).

  Offload/stop providing any federally provided services that are not accessed by the majority of Canadians on a regular basis.  Lowering our deficit or individual tax burdens.

  Stop blaming immigrants for our problems.   Only the indigenous can claim this.  If anything we need to increase immigration.  Someone needs to pay for this mess.

  Abolish Federal Indigenous departments, related mandates, and laws.   This whole department should be considered a war crime for the acts they have perpetrated.

« Last Edit: September 01, 2024, 02:50:46 PM by micahc »

sixwings

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Re: Over Under on Trudeau
« Reply #20 on: September 03, 2024, 09:09:58 AM »
Big grocer price gouging is definitely one of the reasons for the increases in prices. What plan or strategies would you like to see a government impose to reduce the cost of food that isn't going after the big grocers for this?

daverobev

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Re: Over Under on Trudeau
« Reply #21 on: September 03, 2024, 10:07:28 AM »

I haven't been following the climate negotiations, but they were bound to happen one way or another.  I will comment that the forest fires in central and western Canada have been producing more CO2 than the entire economy for the last couple of years.   If we really care about this, maybe we should get better at shutting down forest fires.


Forest fires which are exacerbated by climate change, which despite literally being a house on fire emergency, is being virtually ignored.

Trudeau got in promising voting system reform, then reneged. Major black mark.

He appealed to the young and climate aware voter, then proceeded to buy and fund that stupid pipeline with taxpayer money - making a massive loss in the process. Huge black mark.

Not restricting, but rather rapidly increasing, immigration during a housing crisis is another black mark, though likely from a different group of voters.

They have done enough things to piss off their voters I think. Don't get me wrong, I will not vote for the current 'conservative' incarnation, but from my perspective the Liberals have failed massively.

No doubt the Federal government will go Conservative and Ontario Provincial will go something else. I do find that ironic. The faster Ford is out the better.

Metalcat

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Re: Over Under on Trudeau
« Reply #22 on: September 03, 2024, 10:35:06 AM »

I haven't been following the climate negotiations, but they were bound to happen one way or another.  I will comment that the forest fires in central and western Canada have been producing more CO2 than the entire economy for the last couple of years.   If we really care about this, maybe we should get better at shutting down forest fires.


Forest fires which are exacerbated by climate change, which despite literally being a house on fire emergency, is being virtually ignored.

Trudeau got in promising voting system reform, then reneged. Major black mark.

He appealed to the young and climate aware voter, then proceeded to buy and fund that stupid pipeline with taxpayer money - making a massive loss in the process. Huge black mark.

Not restricting, but rather rapidly increasing, immigration during a housing crisis is another black mark, though likely from a different group of voters.

They have done enough things to piss off their voters I think. Don't get me wrong, I will not vote for the current 'conservative' incarnation, but from my perspective the Liberals have failed massively.

No doubt the Federal government will go Conservative and Ontario Provincial will go something else. I do find that ironic. The faster Ford is out the better.

This often happens though, the federal swings one way while the provinces swing another. This is often due to the exact same reasons: parties can't stay in power beyond a certain point without the public turning on them, pretty much no matter what they do, because the "black marks" will always build up over time and the successes become invisible.

So they will swing back and forth, and if a province and the feds are on a different timeline, they can easily swing back and forth in ideological opposition of each other.

Remember, elections are never won by people changing their political affiliation, elections are won based on how many people who would vote for you anyway you can get out to vote.

Nothing mobilizes votes for one party like people wanting to vote against another party, and nothing morivates voters not to vote for a party they would normally vote for, like getting sick of them and their leader.

PP won't get elected by anyone really liking PP, he'll get elected by the wave of folks who hate JT and the wave of Liberal voters who just can't be fucked to go out and vote for him because they're sick of his face.

Likewise, Ford was elected largely because of hatred/apathy towards Wynn, and he'll likely be defeated by hatred/apathy for him.

Ford and JT were elected very close together, so it makes perfect sense for their governments to swing at around the same time, regardless of either's ideology or policies or even the prevailing public ideologies at the time.

It always comes down to which party can motivate people who would vote for them anyway to actually take some time and go vote in elections, and absolutely nothing motivates voters more than hating an encumbent who is past their best-before date.

Missy B

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Re: Over Under on Trudeau
« Reply #23 on: September 05, 2024, 07:49:01 PM »
I didn't vote Liberal but when Trudeau got in I was hopeful that they would do a good job.
And there's been thing after thing with that government -- I can't stand them. The constant lying. The economic illiteracy.

I actually miss Stephen Harper. If anyone had told me that I would ever say that I would have told them they were on crack. But I do.

I'll vote Conservative despite my indifference to PP, and it won't matter, because my riding is in red-lockdown, Hedy Fry owns it and they will tear it from her cold dead hands. What she does for the riding is unclear, but she shows up at all the Pride Parades, which is apparently all she needs to do.


micahc

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Re: Over Under on Trudeau
« Reply #24 on: September 06, 2024, 11:58:19 AM »

Generally Canadians look at our government officials / public service employees as pigs at the trough.

Instead of focusing on the constant negative narrative.   I would like to highlight the following behaviors which broke with Liberal government thinking.

Justin Trudeau actually admitted past failures and apologize to the indigenous people.

The 2023 budget Liberals issued $15 billion of spending cuts by defunding public services.   Which was a departure from the normal expansion by tax and spend policies of the past.

Every once in a while the Government acts responsible and scares you.

All Government rules / regulation should be viewed on a tax (burden) to society and a threat to our personal freedoms.   


rocketpj

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Re: Over Under on Trudeau
« Reply #25 on: September 09, 2024, 08:27:18 AM »

All Government rules / regulation should be viewed on a tax (burden) to society and a threat to our personal freedoms.

I couldn't disagree with this more.  Well crafted regulation is what creates a level playing field that allows for economic growth and competition.  There is a lot of propaganda out there that disagrees, but I happen to like knowing that the water coming out of my tap won't kill me, the road is very unlikely to collapse under me, and the building I am in is unlikely to fall down.

Red tape is dyed in blood, most of it is there for a reason.  That said, there is a good argument to have a regular pass-through of regulations to ensure they reflect current conditions and aren't creating accidental monopolies.

Retire-Canada

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Re: Over Under on Trudeau
« Reply #26 on: September 09, 2024, 09:31:53 AM »
I don't mind rules, regulations and taxes...as long as they are used constructively in aid of improving life in the country.

My mom grew up in Switzerland during WW2 and has passed on a lot of stories of what that experience was like. So when people complain about a lack of freedom in Canada I feel like they need a bit more historical perspective.

techwiz

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Re: Over Under on Trudeau
« Reply #27 on: September 09, 2024, 01:18:20 PM »
Odds?

Odds of Trudeau staying in as leader are high. The odds of Trudeau winning a majority the next election are very very low.

RetiredAt63

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Re: Over Under on Trudeau
« Reply #28 on: September 11, 2024, 06:48:04 PM »
Odds?

Odds of Trudeau staying in as leader are high. The odds of Trudeau winning a majority the next election are very very low.

I never liked the old Progressive Conservatives but now look back on them with nostalgia.  The "Red Tories" were generally pretty capable and forward thinking.  Remember Flora MacDonald?  Joe Clark, who was fine with his wife keeping her maiden name?  It feels like most of the present Conservative parties are taking instruction from MAGA.  Except Doug Ford, he is an old-fashioned pork-barrel Conservative.  Which means I just get to dislike him for the old reasons.   ;-)

The thing with the Liberals is who would replace Trudeau as leader?  A few years ago I would have said Chrystia Freeland, but she is too identified with Trudeau.  I don't see anyone else.  Is there a rising star I have missed?

The NDP blew it, in my opinion, when they ditched Tom Mulcair.  He was not appreciated.  I saw him in action as a Quebec Liberal Environment Minister and he was definitely more suited to the NDP .  I like Jagmeet Singh but he is not Jack Layton or Tom Mulcair and is not going to attract enough disillusioned Liberal voters.

I worry that the more liberal vote will split between the Liberals and NDP and the Conservatives (Reform in all but name) will take full advantage.  Harper was careful during his minority governments but his majority government went all out.  If PP gets a majority I am concerned he will be worse.   

Oh, that old saw about becoming more conservative as you age is nonsense - the women my age are more radical, not less.  Or maybe we are where we always were and everything has shifted to the right around us.  Can't speak for the men.

GuitarStv

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Re: Over Under on Trudeau
« Reply #29 on: September 11, 2024, 07:43:04 PM »
Oh, that old saw about becoming more conservative as you age is nonsense - the women my age are more radical, not less.  Or maybe we are where we always were and everything has shifted to the right around us.  Can't speak for the men.

Economically I'm much more conservative now that I'm in my sunset years.  Granted, as a teen growing up deep in Northern Ontario I was pretty much a communist.  :P

RetiredAt63

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Re: Over Under on Trudeau
« Reply #30 on: September 12, 2024, 09:27:37 AM »
Oh, that old saw about becoming more conservative as you age is nonsense - the women my age are more radical, not less.  Or maybe we are where we always were and everything has shifted to the right around us.  Can't speak for the men.

Economically I'm much more conservative now that I'm in my sunset years.  Granted, as a teen growing up deep in Northern Ontario I was pretty much a communist.  :P

I'm not sure if I am more conservative fiscally or not.  I was always pretty careful about money, no surprise I ended up on the forums.  I am definitely more liberal socially.  And the present-day Conservatives seem to want to go back - I grew up in the 50s and never want us to go back.  Never, never, never.  NEVER!!!!!

What is surprising is that sometimes fiscal polices that look all expensive and do-goody turn out to be very fiscally rewarding.  I keep pulling out the example of Quebec's daycare subsidies.  The government figured out that they made money on it - the extra income and sales tax* from mothers going back to work more than covered the cost of day care subsidies.  And look at the social benefits.  The mothers are maintaining their job history, they are accumulating pensions (if only CPP credit) and the whole economy is benefiting.  I haven't seen financial numbers on maternity/paternity leaves, but they are "good things".  I look at my DD and SiL's leaves for my grand-daughter compared to my Ex and me for DD, and there is a world of difference.

I also often think of the end result of universal health care (not free health care, we all know our taxes pay for it).  When we look at Americans, they seem so tied to their jobs because of their health care benefits.  How many Canadians worry about employer insurance policies when they are thinking about jobs?  When I left my next-to-last job to take my last contract, I never thought about the insurance.  In a similar job it was going to be similar.  And it was for the extras, I was covered by OHIP.  So people are not held hostage by employers for health insurance.

*Sometimes I think we are the subversive (not sure that is the word I want but it will do) ones - look at all the sales tax our governments lose because we shop carefully, buy secondhand, or make/do it ourselves.