Stories of financial turnarounds, or people that never got it figured out?

[Villanelle]

Inspired by Ditheca's great update in his thread about their ILs that were soon-to-be-broke and homeless, do you know anyone (or are you someone) who has turned their life around from the brink (or over the edge) of destitution?  What was the biggest factor in their change?  How much outside help did they get--and in what forms--from you or others?  Any tips or lessons learned?  Or, do you have a story about someone on the brink of financial catastrophe who was offered help and could never quite get it together?  What worked, and what didn't?

I've got a BIL who will likely be here at some point. No money, no job, living at mom's house and paying nothing, a body not in great shape due to drinking (which he's quit at least half a dozen times; who knows if he's currently clean and sober).  I think he expects to live with MIL until she dies (which is unlikely to be any time soon, and I certainly hope it's not) until she dies and then inherit and live off that indefinitely somehow.  Unfortunately, all appearances point to MIL not having much so I think he's in for a rude awakening.

My plan (and DH is ostensibly very on-board, based on many conversations, so it is really *our plan* but I know that theory is much different than a phone call from your brother saying he will be out on the street in days, or is already out on the street, unless you send cash) is to offer a lot of help, but only in the form of information.  I'm happy to call around to find shelters.  I'm happy to proof-read resumes or help him write one.  I'm happy to find out what social services he might be eligible for or help him make phone calls about a disability application. I'm happy to help him find lower COL places to move (and may even be willing to pay for a plane ticket for such a move). I'm happy to help him scour his local Buy Nothing group for a bicycle (might also be willing to pay for that if needed) or home furnishings if he has a house.  Unlike Ditheca, I'm not willing to recommend him for specific jobs because I can't in good conscious say I think he'd be a good employee and I won't put my reputation on the line for him, but I will help with looking for open positions.  IOW, I'm willing to dedicate a lot of time and effort to it, but little to no money, until I see a pattern of true effort on his part. 

*IF* we see compliance and dedication to these things, and consistent effort that makes it clear he's willing to try to solve his own problems, then we may be willing to help with money, or things that cost money (like purchasing a very modest used vehicle to help him get to a job, or even purchasing the cheapest studio apartment in the area, in his name, or a camper van or tiny house, if he can find a place to park that is *NOT* my house).  But the compliance, sacrifice, and willingness to work hard and make choices he doesn't like (if "do you want fries with that" isn't good enough for him, then clearly he doesn't really need money--mine or McDollars) have to come first.

What have you seen or done?  What worked, what didn't?  Points for those facing this to consider?  Cautionary tales?  Frustrated venting?  Whatever you've got, feel free to add it to the conversation.

[Adventine]

I have one, about my own parents. I've talked about it in bits and pieces over the years in my forum journals. The short version is, my parents both came from privileged backgrounds, but squandered their advantages through a combination of poor financial choices, backwards thinking about husband/wife roles, adverse macroeconomic trends and serious health crises.

I and my two sisters had to bail them out. The three of us resent that we, who made the good choices, paid and continue to pay for their bad decisions. However, we all acknowledge that we wouldn't be where we are today without our parents. They fed and housed us decently from birth until early adulthood. They paid for our college educations in full. We were all able to launch successfully and land great white collar jobs. None of these things are easy to do in the developed world, much less the developing country where we were all born and where I lived for most of my life.

I made the choice to financially support my parents because I knew myself. I knew I would not be able to sleep well at night if my parents weren't decently housed and fed. My sisters felt the same. I'm pretty lucky that all three of us kids were all willing to share the burden.

My parents never got better at handling money. My sisters and I had to completely take over the bank accounts and all the bills. Our mother died a few years ago from a rare and painful cancer. I miss her, but there are many days when I feel relieved that half of the problem has solved itself.

Our father is still alive and has only grown more bitter and moody with time. He is no longer able to work and clearly struggles with the guilt of feeling useless/a giant burden to his children, on top of his deep guilt about being unable to financially provide for his wife, especially when she was struggling with the cancer that eventually killed her. On my more generous days, I feel that his state of mind is punishment enough for his bad choices.

I try to be kind to my father, but I also keep my emotional and physical distance. Otherwise, I start to feel too resentful that I and my sisters are locked into the obligation of providing for him until he passes away.

I live on the other side of the world now. I still send money regularly to help with his living expenses. One of my sisters handles his finances. None of us kids trust him to handle money responsibly. If he had been a better father (meaning a kinder and more stable person, instead of the bipolar mess he's always been), I would be more generous with the financial help. But he's not, and he never was. So I send enough money to keep him decently housed and fed, but that's it.

[Cassie]

Villanelle, I think your plan for your bil is good. At any time he could turn his life around but chooses not to and his mother enables this dependency. I find it sad but helping him find resources is all I would do. Don’t work harder than he does to solve his problems.

[Villanelle]

Villanelle, I think your plan for your bil is good. At any time he could turn his life around but chooses not to and his mother enables this dependency. I find it sad but helping him find resources is all I would do. Don’t work harder than he does to solve his problems.

Thanks.  I'm worried that DH is going to struggle greatly with this approach when it moves from theory to reality.  (And while I'd love to be hopeful, I see no reason to believe that the patterns of the last years--and really of BIL's whole life--will change, so I don't see how it ends up anywhere other than that, unless MIL has much more money than we imagine, which also seems very unlikely given that she took out a reverse mortgage a couple years ago.) 

And to be fair to BIL, it will be much harder for him to turn his life around now than it would have been 5 or 10 years ago, because his body has more damage now.  It's unclear how bad his health issues are (hard to get straight answers from him about anything) but at one point when he had a job, he was out on disability for a while because he was unable to stand for long periods.  He says that's improved, but whether it has improved enough to work a 6-8 hour shift with mostly standing, IDK.  He as a DUI on his record (2, I think) so driving jobs are out.  And he doesn't have any particular skills.  He thinks he's charming, but he's awkward and crass and sometimes inappropriate, so no one is going to hire him for customer-facing office work.  So they jobs he can take are limited, but I'm sure they exist, especially in the current employment market, but he continues to not get one. 

If it was a matter of him having a job and being somewhat responsible with his money, I wouldn't be entirely opposed to a small monthly amount to cover shortfalls, or something like that. But instead, he continues to do nothing. 

[merula]

I have a turnaround story about a relative I'll call Alice. Alice came from a blue-collar area, didn't go to college and started a cash-based business in her 20s. She was always very up-front about skimming money off the top, liked to carry around wads of cash and show off, that kind of thing. She'd throw money around on things to impress her friends while her husband, John, was working 50 or 60 hours a week and scrimping on groceries and clothes for the kids.

Alice's plan was to live off her business until she retired and sold it, combined with leaning on John's modest pension. (He wasn't well paid, but worked in a stable industry with decent benefits including medical and retirement.) If not for John (who taught me a ton of Mustachian values), I'm pretty sure she would've gone bankrupt a few times. Unfortunately, he developed early-onset Parkinson's and ran through a lot of their savings before he passed.

While they were going through that, Alice sold her business (which generated a lot less than I think she was expecting, likely because of depressing the receipts through skimming off the top) and picked up a menial clerical job with a big-name company with great benefits. She stayed there, complaining all the way, until she qualified for their retirement benefits and social security.

I never thought Alice would be able to hold a regular job, but she did. I also never thought she'd be able to manage her money without her husband, but she has done pretty well in the ~10 years he's been gone. She'll never be frugal, but she's not throwing around money anymore. She keeps her splurges to just her tennis club membership. She doesn't need the latest car or clothes like she used to. I think a lot of this is from going through the trauma of John's illness, and stepping up to carry on his approach.

[GilesMM]

There is always the story of Colonel Sanders who failed at most things in life but never gave up.  He was fairly poor in his 60s when he resorted to the only skill he had - cooking chicken.  The rest is history.

[Omy]

I have a sibling-in-law who spends everything they make (and then some) on really stupid stuff. They've had free housing for years from living with their only parent (who recently passed).

Sibling inherited the house free and clear, but we are all on alert since there's no way sibling will be able to maintain the house without parent's checks coming in. Sibling could sell the house and live on the proceeds for a few years, but won't be able to find another house that's as nice.

DH and his other sibling have covered shortfalls when parent was alive, but I feel that should stop now that parent is no longer around and the house has been turned over to sibling-in-law. I might feel differently if sibling-in-law could ever stop buying junk.

[Log]

My family has a lot of stories that aren't really turnarounds, but more situations of stable semi-poverty.

Of my two brothers, the one who's in a more precarious situation just re-enrolled in community college this term, so fingers crossed he may become a turnaround story in the years to come.

[lifeandlimb]

I don't think anyone I know counts as a true turnaround. I see a lot of people kicking the can down the road.

Not sure if this counts, but I just watched the limited series Maid and read the book it's based on. There's a real turnaround story there, from unemployed and homeless through domestic/financial abuse, to becoming a house cleaner, putting herself through school, and then moving away and becoming a published article and book writer with a successful Netflix show. The author had some case worker help (and EBT/Snap benefits), but also mentioned that she was turned down for many other social benefits, and refused to go to food pantries out of shame.

The most helpful things she claimed were friends, family, or social programs that offered childcare while she needed to work long shifts. And anyone that met her halfway (with grocery money, donations, a new gig, or a listening ear) when she put in the hard work but wasn't able to make ends meet temporarily.

[bacchi]

The stories are still being written.

One peer couple makes $150k combined but owns a McMansion and pays $35k (!) in property taxes. There are $50k cars in the driveway. I assume they'll downsize when they retire but they do like "quality" things. It might work out or it could end in tears when their savings+old age pension doesn't cover their bills.

SO's parents (one set) likes fancy dining, fancy hotels, and trying to impress ultra-wealthy colleagues. This is probably a disaster in the making.

[LaineyAZ]

On the cautionary tale side:  I recently attended a presentation from a speaker on how seniors can avoid being scammed.
 
One surprising stat was that seniors were most likely to be scammed by a family member - in particular those who had sons aged 30 - 50 living with them were most at risk.
So my first advice would be to make sure the senior parents financial accounts are locked down and not accessible by their financially needy/incompetent adult offspring. 

Secondly, I'd consult with a professional social worker who would know of resources for low or no-income people, e.g., low-cost or free internet.  Also most states have a Vocational Rehab department which is used to help people of all backgrounds find some kind of employment.  I know it's not your responsibility to find them a job, but just having a job placement counselor can get them jump-started into something beneficial. 

[Villanelle]

On the cautionary tale side:  I recently attended a presentation from a speaker on how seniors can avoid being scammed.
 
One surprising stat was that seniors were most likely to be scammed by a family member - in particular those who had sons aged 30 - 50 living with them were most at risk.
So my first advice would be to make sure the senior parents financial accounts are locked down and not accessible by their financially needy/incompetent adult offspring. 

Secondly, I'd consult with a professional social worker who would know of resources for low or no-income people, e.g., low-cost or free internet.  Also most states have a Vocational Rehab department which is used to help people of all backgrounds find some kind of employment.  I know it's not your responsibility to find them a job, but just having a job placement counselor can get them jump-started into something beneficial.

This literally cause mt stomach to clench.  My unemployed, alcoholic, entitled, everything-is-someone-else's fault, deeply-resents-his-mother BIL fit right in this category. I question whether he's smart enough to scam, with is some solace (and how messed up is that!?).  MIL is married and she and her husband are both smart and educated, but I know that's not a fool-proof scam guard. 

I'm fairly certain BIL has no direct access to any accounts, so scams would have to get her to turn over money willingly, or he could steal things around the house, though I don't think there's much of tremendous value. 

Gah. 

[Cassie]

Lainey, all states have a department or bureau of Vocational Rehabilitation because it’s a combination of a federal/state program to help people with disabilities obtain employment. You must have a disability to be eligible for services. However, most states also have a general employment program to assist people in finding work. I spent 20 years working for vocational rehabilitation.

[Metalcat]

*Raises Hand*

DH and I were both ridiculously close to bankruptcy when we got together, with 420K of unsecured debt, and that was *after* he refinanced his home shortly before we got together.

Just an absolute cluster fuck, our situations so dire because of both of us having really fucked up situations with really fucked up exes. I had 6 figures of debt from school, but my finances were a mess and my credit destroyed because of my cocaine addicted ex. 

Then DH and I got together and it turns out we're both naturally happy little frugal people and dug our way out of our giant hole pretty quickly.

[LaineyAZ]

Lainey, all states have a department or bureau of Vocational Rehabilitation because it’s a combination of a federal/state program to help people with disabilities obtain employment. You must have a disability to be eligible for services. However, most states also have a general employment program to assist people in finding work. I spent 20 years working for vocational rehabilitation.

Thanks, Cassie.  I was thinking of the wrong thing.  The general agency for AZ jobseekers is Arizona at Work, and as you say most states have something similar. 

One last caution:  I know of an instance where a senior woman went in for surgery and a short rehab, expected to be gone for about 10 days.  She gave her unemployed live-in 30ish son a general power of attorney to handle paying her bills, etc.  But while she was gone he emptied out her apartment, had a yard sale, and sold everything she owned including her wheelchair.  There was nothing anyone could do because she'd signed the POA.  (Stay far away from these general powers of attorney - edit them to be restrictive or don't use them at all!)

So again, parents can be naive about accepting their offspring's simple suggestion of "help" only to find they've given access to their finances which can be hard to shut off again. 

[SunnyDays]

I have no personal experience with such a situation, but I do have a few questions about yours in particular.  Why is BIL in this situation?  What's the root cause?  Is he a "primary" alcoholic, or using alcohol to deal with physical pain (you said he was disabled), or using alcohol to deal with emotional pain?  Does he have a diagnosed or undiagnosed intellectual disability or psychiatric illness?  Does he just not know how to get his life together for whatever reason and just need someone to take him in hand and walk him through each step of getting a job, getting a place to live etc?  Is he just so lazy he has no motivation because mom is looking after him?  Why does he feel entitled?  Why does he resent his mother yet continue to be dependent on her?  There's a lot to untangle here.  Until the issue(s) is/are identified, it's impossible to take any steps to "launch" him.

And why is your MIL (and especially her husband, who I assume is not BIL's father) okay with this?  Is she getting something tangible or emotional out of the arrangement?

You don't say how old he is or how many siblings there are to potentially get involved, but I would say that the sooner someone makes it a point to actually address this, the better.  Why wait until the SHTF and then deal with the mess?  If he and/or MIL have refused past offers of help, what makes you and your husband responsible in any way at any time for dealing with any aspect of this?  If everyone has just tiptoed around this so far, why?  It's either your business or it's not, but you can't be expected to stay out of it now only to have it all fall into your lap later.

This whole scenario is not about money, but something much bigger and deeper.  Unless he and MIL are willing to do something about it now, I personally wouldn't feel any obligation to do anything about it later.

[Villanelle]

I have no personal experience with such a situation, but I do have a few questions about yours in particular.  Why is BIL in this situation?  What's the root cause?  Is he a "primary" alcoholic, or using alcohol to deal with physical pain (you said he was disabled), or using alcohol to deal with emotional pain?  Does he have a diagnosed or undiagnosed intellectual disability or psychiatric illness?  Does he just not know how to get his life together for whatever reason and just need someone to take him in hand and walk him through each step of getting a job, getting a place to live etc?  Is he just so lazy he has no motivation because mom is looking after him?  Why does he feel entitled?  Why does he resent his mother yet continue to be dependent on her?  There's a lot to untangle here.  Until the issue(s) is/are identified, it's impossible to take any steps to "launch" him.

And why is your MIL (and especially her husband, who I assume is not BIL's father) okay with this?  Is she getting something tangible or emotional out of the arrangement?

You don't say how old he is or how many siblings there are to potentially get involved, but I would say that the sooner someone makes it a point to actually address this, the better.  Why wait until the SHTF and then deal with the mess?  If he and/or MIL have refused past offers of help, what makes you and your husband responsible in any way at any time for dealing with any aspect of this?  If everyone has just tiptoed around this so far, why?  It's either your business or it's not, but you can't be expected to stay out of it now only to have it all fall into your lap later.

This whole scenario is not about money, but something much bigger and deeper.  Unless he and MIL are willing to do something about it now, I personally wouldn't feel any obligation to do anything about it later.

The disabilities are all alcohol-related, so it's definitely not a chicken/egg question. He's in his mid-40s. MIL has sort of tried, getting him into rehab 2-3 times, but she isn't willing to draw the hard line and stop enabling.  (For the same reasons it will be hard for DH to draw that line if/when it comes to that.)

He's had jobs.  Some were lost for reasons that we don't know.  Sometimes qutting because he doesn't like them, sometimes because he wants something better, occasionally because he has something else lined up. And he's been fired more than once, often related to alcohol, whether he admits it or not.  He's been through rehab a couple times, and sever withdraws that left him hospitalized a few more  In general, he never seemed to struggle finding jobs, but he is now.  But also, he's not willing to take low paying jobs.  "I can't live on $15/hr."  (So he chooses to live on $0 instead.)  So he does find some jobs to be beneath him.  I don't even know how hard he's actually trying.  Why would he, when he lives for free?  He says he's applying for disability, but I don't know how hard he's working on that, or whether he's disabled enough to actually qualify. 

The mom thing is complicated. He was raised by a single mom who wasn't very present, mostly because she was working multiple jobs to make ends meet.  There's more to it than that, but I think he definitely hasn't processed all of that.  He's been in therapy on and off (mostly off, though I don't know the current status, and he does claim to be sober now, but he's claimed that many times.)

Nothing makes us responsible, but when MIL is gone and he has nothing at all, it's going to be a challenge for DH to just say, "sorry, good luck with being unhoused.  K'bye!)

[SunnyDays]

Ah, okay.  So mom is enabling because she feels guilty for not being there when he was young.  And he has issues about that, which may be what's leading him to drink (or initially led him, and now he's addicted).  But he also isn't that motivated since he walks away from jobs.

Nothing is going to change on it's own or if it's just left up to MIL and BIL.  So why not take the plan you outlined in your initial post and communicate it to them now?  All of those things are doable now, you don't need to wait for MIL to die, which sounds like it may be many years in the future, at which time BIL will be even less capable of helping himself.  Because chances are pretty good that BIL will simply expect the same from you and your husband, who will not be able to say NO, and you will have a new roommate.

[Villanelle]

Ah, okay.  So mom is enabling because she feels guilty for not being there when he was young.  And he has issues about that, which may be what's leading him to drink (or initially led him, and now he's addicted).  But he also isn't that motivated since he walks away from jobs.

Nothing is going to change on it's own or if it's just left up to MIL and BIL.  So why not take the plan you outlined in your initial post and communicate it to them now?  All of those things are doable now, you don't need to wait for MIL to die, which sounds like it may be many years in the future, at which time BIL will be even less capable of helping himself.  Because chances are pretty good that BIL will simply expect the same from you and your husband, who will not be able to say NO, and you will have a new roommate.

If it were 100% up to me, BIL would certainly be getting some tough love.  But I also understand why DH chooses not to do that.  And I think "you'll never get $ from us unless..." would come off as a little odd right now, since he's not asking, and MIL isn't necessarily complaining, either.  The situation is "fine" right now, in that everyone involved seems semi-okay with it, so storming in and saying, "we will help with X, Y, and Z, but only if you do A, B, and C" would certainly be met with a hard-no, as well as some confusion since it would be so out of the blue.  Why would he choose to do A, B, and C, when he can simply continue to not do them?  And bringing up "when MIL dies" feels pretty off, too.  And she hasn't come out and said who gets what, or what estate there might even be.  We've just drawn conclusions from the reverse mortgage, and a few other factors. 

So don't think there's any way to have this conversation now, unless it comes up in some way. 

[DeepEllumStache]

It may not be completely comparable but a relative of mine did a massive financial turnaround.

This person graduated from college during the dot com recession and took a job that severely underpaid and took advantage of her. She was funding an out of work boyfriend and the two of them weren't frugal enough to survive on such a low salary. She would only call and talk to me when she wanted to borrow money.

She seemed to be searching for a magical solution to not having enough money but didn't believe she could get a better job. In 2006 she took advice from a friend to buy a fixer upper house with very little down, no savings, and no experience with DIY projects. She needed roommates to cover the mortgage but believed that housing appreciation would dig her out of her financial hole. It was a train wreck of an idea even before the housing market crash. I finally said not to call me unless she wanted to talk about something other than borrowing money from me.

She stopped calling me but I heard she was getting more stressed with her debt and the crashing housing market. Then she started changing. Over the next couple of years she found a better job, started getting promoted, and got much better at budgeting. She then called me back to start paying me back everything I had loaned her. She then started saving for retirement, was able to sell the house at just enough to cover her costs, got promoted a lot more, and saved up a massive down payment to buy a condo.

While she was struggling, she would get defensive about any comments that didn't align to what she wanted to hear. Her change came entirely from her and once she started changing, her confidence snowballed with every small win. She went from stressing and surviving every month to really taking control of her life.

She's barely older than I am and could retire early but her company gave her the opportunity to work in Europe. So she went. When things got less enjoyable, she volunteered to get laid off since she had enough FU money (even for how cautious she is now with money), enjoyed a few months off before quickly getting to choose between two very comparable high level positions. It's kind of awesome to watch her.

[Ladychips]

That's a great story @DeepEllumStache. Any idea what caused the start of the turn around?

[DeepEllumStache]

That's a great story @DeepEllumStache. Any idea what caused the start of the turn around?

We weren't talking at the time so I'm not really sure. I haven't asked since she's still a bit defensive about that time, which is understandable since a lot of the family doesn't recognize just how much she turned her life around.

It was likely a combination of things but the big one was her leaving the crap job. She ended up landing at a temp job, but lucked out since they sent her to a company that almost immediately hired her on full-time which started a positive feedback loop.

[Villanelle]

It may not be completely comparable but a relative of mine did a massive financial turnaround.

This person graduated from college during the dot com recession and took a job that severely underpaid and took advantage of her. She was funding an out of work boyfriend and the two of them weren't frugal enough to survive on such a low salary. She would only call and talk to me when she wanted to borrow money.

She seemed to be searching for a magical solution to not having enough money but didn't believe she could get a better job. In 2006 she took advice from a friend to buy a fixer upper house with very little down, no savings, and no experience with DIY projects. She needed roommates to cover the mortgage but believed that housing appreciation would dig her out of her financial hole. It was a train wreck of an idea even before the housing market crash. I finally said not to call me unless she wanted to talk about something other than borrowing money from me.

She stopped calling me but I heard she was getting more stressed with her debt and the crashing housing market. Then she started changing. Over the next couple of years she found a better job, started getting promoted, and got much better at budgeting. She then called me back to start paying me back everything I had loaned her. She then started saving for retirement, was able to sell the house at just enough to cover her costs, got promoted a lot more, and saved up a massive down payment to buy a condo.

While she was struggling, she would get defensive about any comments that didn't align to what she wanted to hear. Her change came entirely from her and once she started changing, her confidence snowballed with every small win. She went from stressing and surviving every month to really taking control of her life.

She's barely older than I am and could retire early but her company gave her the opportunity to work in Europe. So she went. When things got less enjoyable, she volunteered to get laid off since she had enough FU money (even for how cautious she is now with money), enjoyed a few months off before quickly getting to choose between two very comparable high level positions. It's kind of awesome to watch her.

What a fantastic story, especially because she was able, on her own, to turn around that defensiveness that seems so common in people who are struggling even though they have clear--if not quick--paths out available to them if they just start taking them. 

And also a solid reminder that almost anything can be the thing that triggers the next positive thing, which triggers the next, and so on. 

Thanks for sharing it.  I deeply, deeply wish for something like this for BIL.  Even if he never gets to the FIRE/awesome opportunity in Europe stage, just seeing hi be self-sufficient would be amazing, for his sake, MIL's sake, and--selfishly--for DH and my sake.