Author Topic: Really struggling with my adolescent daughter. Any advice would be appreciated.  (Read 25646 times)

C-note

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I'd recommend you start gathering some information on her behaviors at home and at school.  Speak to her teachers and learn about any behaviors that may be occurring at school. [...] I'd track her sleeping habits, eating habits, use of technology, etc. [...] Then - I'd make an appointment with a counselor and your pediatrician and share what you've learned.
Not meaning to have a a go, but if I were a teenager, this would sound like a horrifying invasion of privacy to me.

Appreciate your not meaning to have a go.  Horrifying invasion of privacy?  I guess that depends on your perspective. 

Just offering my advice/experience that saved my son's life.

green daisy

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I'd recommend you start gathering some information on her behaviors at home and at school.  Speak to her teachers and learn about any behaviors that may be occurring at school. [...] I'd track her sleeping habits, eating habits, use of technology, etc. [...] Then - I'd make an appointment with a counselor and your pediatrician and share what you've learned.
Not meaning to have a a go, but if I were a teenager, this would sound like a horrifying invasion of privacy to me.

Appreciate your not meaning to have a go.  Horrifying invasion of privacy?  I guess that depends on your perspective. 

Just offering my advice/experience that saved my son's life.

Thank you.  I think I will contact her teachers and ask about her interactions at school.  Her grades are so-so.  A's in classes where there aren't any tests or homework (gym, art).  B's and the occasional C in other classes.  She doesn't study much and sometimes doesn't do assignments. 

PoutineLover

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Lots of good responses.  I have no kids but I still remember this age really well.  My one cautionary note is to look at your own behavior as well.  My parents often brag about what a great job they did raising me and what great parents they were and how awful I was at this age and they did absolutely nothing wrong.  They never seem to remember how often and how loudly they screamed at me, among other things I won't go into here.  I say this because you mentioned screaming, put yourself in her shoes from a physical standpoint.  A grown adult's loud angry voice is a lot scarier than a 12 year old's, even moreso if the grown angry adult is your parent.  If you're a man (don't think you are but I didn't read that carefully) this goes double.  I distinctly remember being terrified of my parents, particularly my father who had an incredibly loud voice and mean face when he was angry, on a number of occasions.  Don't yell.  I know that's easy for me to say and I'm not saying she should get away with bad behavior but seriously, don't yell, even when she yells first.

+1000.  My DH is like a bear, he has a very big, deep voice, and he gets very, very angry.  When she was little and he lost it, DD would snap into line.  But you could see in her face that it was out of terror.  As I explained to him at the time:  you are teaching her how she deserves to be treated by every other man in her life.  Is that what you want her to expect from a future boyfriend?  So she gets angry and has a fit, and you get angry and yell back.  She's 4.  What's your excuse?

1000% this. My dad used to yell a lot and now my sister and both automatically feel like crying when someone yells. Not good. Not healthy. I wish my dad had known how to control his anger better. Don't leave that impression on your kids.

green daisy

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I agree about the yelling.  I don't yell frequently. The last time I yelled was February.  I had started birth control pills for endometriosis and they made me ragey for a few months. 

My husband yells more.  And I agree, it's scary when he yells.  I can see he's trying to control it. He was very calm yesterday while this was all going on.  But the kids have told me that he yells a lot while I'm at work.  I can't control him though, so I'm not sure what to do about that.  He is open to family counseling so maybe the counselor will get through to him.  He is also open to reading the parenting books I got from the library today.  He has never read a book in all the years I've known him or been open to any self improvement, so this is a positive step. 

green daisy

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My mother was a screamer.  She had a horrible temper.  I hated her when I was a preteen/teen.  She has mellowed out over time now that I'm an adult, but I still feel tension around her.  I've tried very hard not to repeat that. She would call us every horrible name, say how it was a mistake to have us and how she didn't know what she did to have kids as horrible as us.  I was a straight A student, excelled at music, active in sports.  Very self-motivated.  If I won an award at school, she would say how they didn't know what I was really like, otherwise they never would've given me that award.  She seemed weirdly jealous of me (I see this looking back, didn't realize it then).  Once I turned about 12, she started buying my clothes way too big.  I was 105 lbs wearing a size 10.  She was a size 10.  She would brag "I'm skinnier than you" if she fit in my clothes. She would make fun of me if I got a pimple or made a mistake at something.  Things like "Haha, you're not so perfect after all, are you?"  She gave massive punishments that weren't proportionate, and seemed to take great joy in it.  "You raised your voice at me.  You're grounded for 2 months!"  She would yell at me at times where I couldn't respond, like waking me up in the middle of the night to scream at me.  Once, she called my school and had the secretary pull me out of class so she could tell me over the phone that "you're a mean, nasty, horrible person." 

In my case, it only further motivated me to make the most of myself so I could get out of that house.  I was set to go away to college over half-way across the country.  She came to my room crying that if I left, she wouldn't have anyone to talk to about her problems and she didn't know what to do.  She told me that if I went to that college, my parents were not going to help me get there and I was on my own to figure out how to get myself and my stuff across the country with no help.  I chickened out of going and stayed home for college, during which time she would tell me how awful I was and how she wished I had gone away to college.  In hindsight, I should've told my dad about her threats about college.  He would've stepped it.  We weren't close at the time though.  He worked a lot.  All the parenting fell on her. 

I ended up marrying young to get out of there. 

In positive news, daughter and I are going to do a 5K race together in September.  We'll train over the summer and get lots of bonding time! And I found a local counseling group with good reviews in our insurance network.  I really want to fix this. 
« Last Edit: June 12, 2017, 06:52:11 PM by green daisy »

human

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WTF? You need counselling to probably deal with all that baggage from your childhood. Then maybe get your kid into counselling.

green daisy

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WTF? You need counselling to probably deal with all that baggage from your childhood. Then maybe get your kid into counselling.

I've been to counseling as an adult.  It was very helpful.  I went for about 2 years.  I'm open to going again.  I have to call the center and see what they recommend for us. I assume they'd want to meet with me/husband first, then maybe all of us or just some of us.  I'm not planning on dropping my daughter off for them to "fix" her.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2017, 06:56:26 PM by green daisy »

BeautifulDay

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I work in a therapeutic community for at risk youth and worked with many struggling teens/preteens.  Lots of great advice here especially from Laura33.  I won't repeat their excellent advice. Just a few small pieces of wisdom I've gleaned in my line of work...

It takes a calm brain to calm a brain. you have to be the one with the calm brain to lead your child.  When a kid is in their emotional brain they literally cannot hear you.  Adults like to try to verbally process with screaming/emotional kids.  It won't work.  Start with some sort of calming activity. Swing sets, rocking chairs, bouncing a ball, deep breathing are great for calming down. You and she could even decide together on a calming strategy that works for her and even a code word for when you or she thinks a cool down time is needed. After she is calm, then you guys can talk about what happened.

People heal in community and get worse in isolation. The temptation is to send a kid to their room when they are bad. Not saying a cool down time in a room is a bad thing.  Just don't banish a kid when they are bad.  Instead look for ways to interact positively do more of the relational stuff.

Be curious!Adults like to think we've got all the answers. We say things like that kid is doing _____ they are just defiant/bad/selfish.  But all behavior has meaning.  Something is going on.  Bullying at school/some sort of trauma/body issues/hormones/physical issues/etc.  become a detective and find out what thing or things are going on. Make sure she knows you are her biggest advocate.   

Someone else mentioned this but I'll repeat it.  There's something about side by side activities that gets kids talking.  Walk, go for a drive, work on a puzzle.  Just something side by side.  You're in the same space, doing something together, but they don't have to look at you - then they start to open up. 
« Last Edit: June 13, 2017, 09:19:57 PM by BeautifulDay »

joonifloofeefloo

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Quote
with an angry girl or young woman I would, sadly, have half an eye out for possible sexual abuse.

(Boys, too, of course... They are often overlooked as possible survivors.)

Laura33

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I can't control him though, so I'm not sure what to do about that.  He is open to family counseling so maybe the counselor will get through to him.  He is also open to reading the parenting books I got from the library today.  He has never read a book in all the years I've known him or been open to any self improvement, so this is a positive step.

Green daisy, first, I'm sorry about your childhood.  FWIW, your description of your husband is very similar to mine, except that mine was not open to parenting books or counseling (this is the one ultimatum I have given him in 21 years of marriage).  What I did was I told him it was counseling *for DD*, and I told DD it was counseling for *us*, so that no one felt like they were the specific target who needed to be "fixed."  In reality, it was counseling for all of us to change the family dynamic -- but given DD's age at the time, that really meant counseling for the parents to respond to her differently.  And then the counseling gave me the place to say all those things I had learned from the parenting books and have DH hear it from the "expert's" mouth.  :-)

But the other thing I had to do was decide to take the lead in parenting.  It sucked, because we both had jobs, and I was seriously pissed off at having to manage a grown-ass man in addition to two young kids, because he couldn't grow the fuck up and behave like an adult [not that I'm still annoyed about that or anything].  But my #1 job was keeping them safe -- and I include emotionally in that term.  So for a couple of years, I intentionally tried to take the brunt of most of the two-kid duty and sent him off to be helpful doing other things.  And I threw the "unified front" idea out the window when he was losing it -- I just calmly told him to stop and took over whatever it was with the kids.

That obviously won't work if your DH is the primary caregiver and you aren't there when that stuff happens.  So good luck with the counseling; it sounds like your DH is more open to learning new things than mine was.  But keep in mind that if that doesn't help change the dynamic, you might want to consider other options.

Vindicated

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Thank you.  I think I will contact her teachers and ask about her interactions at school.  Her grades are so-so.  A's in classes where there aren't any tests or homework (gym, art).  B's and the occasional C in other classes.  She doesn't study much and sometimes doesn't do assignments.

You've received a lot of great advice, but I wanted to add something I don't think has been mentioned before.

When I was her age, I stopped trying in school.  I'd do what needed to be done (getting few A's, mostly B's & C's), but I didn't care for it.  I even failed gym class Freshman year because I just stopped dressing in my gym clothes and participating.  I thought it was such a waste of time.  I was very detached from school, and even family & friends.  Looking back, I believe I wasn't challenged.  I could've really used a mentor or role model.

Perhaps she feels the same way.  Ask her if she thinks her school work is too easy, too hard, or the right level of difficulty.  If she thinks it's too easy, try to challenge her academically.  Get her into some accelerated classes, or get her on Khan Academy.  Perhaps she could even move up a grade.  That would boost her self-confidence a ton too.

Good luck!

Ann

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I have a question, and I'm really not trying to be trollish:  why is it important to parents that their teenagers (adolescents) have a "clean" room?

I would actually like to know the compelling reasons.  I'm not a parent.  I did have a lot of conflicts about this when I was an adolescent/early teenager, though.  My grandmother tried to explain to me "When you are older you will be embarrassed to have friends over".  Which didn't make sense to me, because if I was embarrassed my future 25-year-old self could just clean my apartment (I did not tell her this, because that would have been sass). 

Is it morally superior to have a clean room?
Is it because the parents find it aesthetically unpleasant?
Is it because the parents are trying to set life-long habits?
Is it because it is a societal norm for parents to demand this?

I'm curious if, after some analysis, people can come up with really compelling reasons.   I never felt my parents had those reasons.  They just didn't like the way it looked.  I felt it was my room, my safe haven.   I admit, I know as an adult that would annoy me if my imaginary kid acted like the house belonged to HER.   It just doesn't seem that bad, though . . . versus maintaining shared space and contributing to household.

gaja

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@Ann: because the bugs spread to the rest of the house.

That being said; bug free living is the level of cleanliness we demand. General messiness doesn't bother me.

milliemchi

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@Ann

When we demand it, it's because I think that clutter in space equals clutter in mind. Imposing order on the outside should help impose order on the inside. Imposing order is a skill that needs to be reinforced. My husband demands it because... I don't know. I'll venture a guess that he feels better in clean space and it's about him.

Also, kids need to have chores. This seems like a good one to have.

joonifloofeefloo

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ann, my kid is allowed a messy (untidy) room to a point. The limits are: no mould, no structural damage, no stench, he can find needed things in a moment, I can reach something without hurting myself, fire escape.

My kid used to literally "toss" things into his room. Once we were missing his lunch kit for a couple of weeks, I didn't worry about it, he used a grocery bag instead... And then the smell developed... And got worse... We started in one corner of the room to work our way around... Found the lunch bag, sealed shut with mold, and the mold having spread across the container it had landed in, the shelf, the wall...

Also, my kid has a diagnosed disability which includes an inability to locate things visually, so having things in "their place" makes all the difference to whether we ever get to leave the house. His ability to find things and to feel calm in his untidy room vs the rest of the (very tidy) house is dramatic.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2017, 09:18:07 AM by jooniFLORisploo »

Vindicated

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I'm surprised that a few people don't prefer a neat and orderly living space.  For me, I get super stressed out when the house is in disarray.  It just becomes overwhelming.

I think it stems from a few things:
1) Everything should have a place - If you know where something should be, it's easier to find.
2) It shows provides tranquility - Knowing that nothing needs to be done.
3) If you look good, you feel good - Both in personal appearance, and home appearance. 

Of course, people are different.  So, someone may "feel good" when their home is not neat.  It's just a new concept to me.

milliemchi

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Here is some advice that I am very confident of:

1) Do read the "How to talk so your kids will listen and listen so your kids will talk". I would start with the original one, which lays down the basics and teaches the basic skills. I have not read the ones specific to teens, sibling rivalry, etc., but it seems to me that the original one is so solid that there is no need. I read this book in detail, as a textbook, cover to cover, three times, over a period of ~10 years. I needed to learn parenting skills (also had an abusive mother, though not as bad as yours), and this book, as well as some other material on positive parenting (e.g., the word "discipline" has a root in 'teaching', so you should understand yourself as a teacher, not police), helped tremendously. Each time I read the book, some additional skills would stick. It's a process. You can only learn so much at a time.

2) Related: In my experience, punishment works for "regular strength" misbehavior.  If you have rapport, it will correct behavior.  If you have a good relationship, it will correct attitude. If things are out of control, which they seem to be, it will not be the answer. If you double-down on punishment, your daughter will double-down on rebellion. In my experience (with an impossible, physically violent 4 year old), the less I disciplined, the better he behaved, though it was admittedly hard to get into that virtuous cycle.  It seems that with the relationship you have with your daughter now, the best you can hope to achieve with punishment is to have her stop the behavior _while you are around_, and that only if you find something painful enough to punish with. The pain will surely inflict damage, so you have to weigh priorities, such as your sanity and little brother's emotional well-being vs her emotional well-being. That's a no-win.

3) After you described your childhood, I am pretty confident that therein lies part of the problem. Therapy is great to process your trauma, but doesn't teach parenting skills. You may 'know' that something is wrong, but that's completely different from being able to do something different or knowing how. Instead of negative knowledge (this should not be done), you need positive knowledge (that should be done). Study up on parenting skills, best from books, and practice, practice. Good behavior will not feel natural for you.

Now some advice that could apply:

4) It is very possible that your husband is a large part of the problem. If he yells at your daughter too much (which is abuse, btw), she is likely angry at him for that, and at you for allowing that to go on. How to fix that if he is the primary caregiver, I don't know. My daughter was not that angry, and has a more compliant personality, and wasn't particularly angry with me, and an honest talk helped some (I think). I explained that no, dad's behavior is not normal, he has problems with his anger, there is something called 'intermittent explosive disorder' (which I think is just a fancy name for 'aggressive self-centered jerk', but it helps to not make things personal), and that dad needs anger management therapy, which I suggested to him and was laughed off. Daughter was 11, and would be clearly distressed by his out-of-control yelling, and I just figured that she was too old to keep that papered over. She still gets very angry at his outbursts, (even when she is in the wrong, heh), but at least she has an outlet, she can complain to me, and I hope having a pressure-release valve will help in the future. So, no defiant behavior with me.  There is very little, but slowly growing, with dad.

5) Without too much sugarcoating... Your abusive childhood sets you up for being abusive. So you need to learn positive parenting skills on your own and purposefully. See 1) and 3).  Also, it sets you up for marrying someone abusive - not necessarily because that's what you feel comfortable with, but because you are the person that does not see 'red flags' that other women see.  So, you end up with an abuser because other women picked milder-mannered men. Also, women who stand up for themselves are not attractive to such men for long.  If this is your story, you're in a pickle. You need to protect daughter from abuse, or at least give appearance that you're trying, if this is to get better. This is not going to work until your parenting is not abusive, and even then, it's going to be hard. So, a long road ahead of you... Part of how to keep sane is to recognize that this is a difficult situation that may not have good outcomes, only more or less bad ones, and your job is to minimize damage. You can't change the past, but you can work on making the future as good as possible given the circumstances.

Again, something I am very confident of: you don't put out fire with gasoline, so you don't put out anger with punishment.

SuperSecretName

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@Ann: because the bugs spread to the rest of the house.

That being said; bug free living is the level of cleanliness we demand. General messiness doesn't bother me.
messy/clutter does not mean bugs.  I think we all can agree that food/dishes shouldn't be left in a room and that bugs are bad.

But a messy room doesn't cause bugs to develop.

Like most parents, mine forced me to clean my room.  And now, guess what - it's still a mess.  I just don't care.  It doesn't make things bad.  People just care about different things.
I'm surprised that a few people don't prefer a neat and orderly living space.  For me, I get super stressed out when the house is in disarray.  It just becomes overwhelming.

I think it stems from a few things:
1) Everything should have a place - If you know where something should be, it's easier to find.
2) It shows provides tranquility - Knowing that nothing needs to be done.
3) If you look good, you feel good - Both in personal appearance, and home appearance. 

Of course, people are different.  So, someone may "feel good" when their home is not neat.  It's just a new concept to me.
Exactly. Maybe you feel that way.  Not everyone does.  Let kids make their own choices over their own space (not communal spaces) and decide for themselves what they want to do.  I'd imagine for some kids, it's actually more stressful to keep a clean room than for it to be dirty.  As parents we shouldn't force our likes/dislikes on our kids.  That doesn't mean letting them eat ice cream for dinner or leaving dirty underwear on the couch.

The more you let your kids do things for themselves and make their own choices, the more satisfied they will be.  Let kids make wrong choices sometimes.  My kids (13,11) do their own laundry.  A few times they have forgotten to do it and wear old/least dirty clothes.  The consequences are theirs alone.  They learn that they are responsible for themselves, and have gotten much better at planning when to do laundry.  And you know what, sometimes they don't want to do laundry and decide to wear old/ill-fitting clothes.  But again, that is their choice, and I'm fine with it.  They need to be able to create their own existence.

mm1970

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I agree.  The school environment is horrible.  She doesn't want to talk to the guidance counselor by herself or with me.  I offered to go with her or to go by myself without her.  The best we were able to do was call the principal and ask that he try to arrange her schedule for next year as best as possible to avoid certain kids. 

I've talked to another mom whose daughter is very sweet and she has been having a horrible time at school this year too.
Kids this age (boys and girls) can be total shits.  And there is very little that you can do about it, in my experience.  Schools and teachers are often next to worthless, because they cannot be there every single minute.

AZDude

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I have a question, and I'm really not trying to be trollish:  why is it important to parents that their teenagers (adolescents) have a "clean" room?

I would actually like to know the compelling reasons.  I'm not a parent.  I did have a lot of conflicts about this when I was an adolescent/early teenager, though.  My grandmother tried to explain to me "When you are older you will be embarrassed to have friends over".  Which didn't make sense to me, because if I was embarrassed my future 25-year-old self could just clean my apartment (I did not tell her this, because that would have been sass). 

Is it morally superior to have a clean room?
Is it because the parents find it aesthetically unpleasant?
Is it because the parents are trying to set life-long habits?
Is it because it is a societal norm for parents to demand this?

I'm curious if, after some analysis, people can come up with really compelling reasons.   I never felt my parents had those reasons.  They just didn't like the way it looked.  I felt it was my room, my safe haven.   I admit, I know as an adult that would annoy me if my imaginary kid acted like the house belonged to HER.   It just doesn't seem that bad, though . . . versus maintaining shared space and contributing to household.

I believe it teaches a sense of ownership, setting up expectations that you take care of stuff that is yours. That is *your* room, and thus you need to take care of it by keeping it clean, organized, etc... I wouldn't expect perfection, just that it not be a total disaster. It takes 5 minutes a day to keep a room clean.

milliemchi

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Let kids make their own choices over their own space (not communal spaces) and decide for themselves what they want to do.   

Another part of it is that when kids are little (11 is little), their room is still somewhat part of the communal space. Friends' parents come in and see what the room is like, etc. It reflects on the whole household. When they are 15, it still reflects on the whole household, but at that age, you need to let it go.

charis

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Let kids make their own choices over their own space (not communal spaces) and decide for themselves what they want to do.   

Another part of it is that when kids are little (11 is little), their room is still somewhat part of the communal space. Friends' parents come in and see what the room is like, etc. It reflects on the whole household. When they are 15, it still reflects on the whole household, but at that age, you need to let it go.

I'm not sure you have to let it go entirely.  Sometimes the room will need to be cleaned/vacuumed (bugs aside), along with the rest of the house.  I own the house, so I expect the rooms to be cleaned on a semi-regular basis.   There is no need to demand perfection or daily cleaning, but even special snowflake teenagers are part of the family and, as such, shall not be absolved of this responsibility just because they don't like it.

green daisy

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I have a question, and I'm really not trying to be trollish:  why is it important to parents that their teenagers (adolescents) have a "clean" room?

I would actually like to know the compelling reasons.  I'm not a parent.  I did have a lot of conflicts about this when I was an adolescent/early teenager, though.  My grandmother tried to explain to me "When you are older you will be embarrassed to have friends over".  Which didn't make sense to me, because if I was embarrassed my future 25-year-old self could just clean my apartment (I did not tell her this, because that would have been sass). 

Is it morally superior to have a clean room?
Is it because the parents find it aesthetically unpleasant?
Is it because the parents are trying to set life-long habits?
Is it because it is a societal norm for parents to demand this?

I'm curious if, after some analysis, people can come up with really compelling reasons.   I never felt my parents had those reasons.  They just didn't like the way it looked.  I felt it was my room, my safe haven.   I admit, I know as an adult that would annoy me if my imaginary kid acted like the house belonged to HER.   It just doesn't seem that bad, though . . . versus maintaining shared space and contributing to household.
For me, it's that I want her to develop  good habits.  It doesn't have to be perfect, but I want it to be reasonably clean.  And it doesn't have to be clean all the time, but it needs to be cleaned up periodically.  What prompted us telling her to clean the room on Sunday was that we have company coming in from out of state this week and she will have guests in her room.  I don't want to put them up in a pig sty. 

I grew up in a very messy house with lots of animals.   We probably were the smelly kids at school.  It has taken great effort for me to become an organized adult.  My slob tendencies run deep.  And I was so embarrassed as a kid to have friends over since the house was so bad.  I have often wished that I had more of a natural tendency to be organized and I don't want my kids to struggle so much with that.  I'm trying to teach them good habits (along with eating well, money management).  I'm not extremely controlling about the clean room. 

golden1

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This was a really good thread, and really applicable to my life the last few years.

My oldest daughter, now nearly 15, started to act similarly a few months before her first period at age 13.  She changed rapidly over the course of a few months from a very quiet and sweet child to a very sullen child who rarely smiled and had what I like to call a persecution complex.  Everyone was out to get her.  She became a bit of a hypochondriac.  She withdrew and spent a lot of time in her room.  She became very emotionally volatile.  She started snapping at her brother also over any thing that annoyed her.  It became very hard to talk to her without getting into some sort of argument over something petty. 

She actually requested counseling herself, and we find out that, like her mom, she has dysthymia and anxiety disorder.  No big surprise really.  (My own struggles with anxiety were contributing to making our interactions disfunctional since my anxiety would feed hers etc...  Working on my own anxiety actually helped her out a bit.).  The trick is that once your adolescent child knows this about herself, you have to teach them that this doesn't give them an excuse to take it out on other people.  IN my case, I had to be a good example of how you can manage these things without making others miserable.

We also found out recently that she is gay, which I think made her feel even more isolated than most teenagers and contributed to her emotional instability.

Things are gradually getting better.  I am trying to support her as best as I can.  I spend time with her just going grocery shopping and hanging out.  I took her to pride parade on Saturday in Boston, which made her happy.  I just spend time enjoying her sense of humor.

I guess what I am trying to say is that this is the age when hormones are out of whack, and kids are trying to figure out who they are separate from their parents.  I see some of the same feeling I had when my daughter started going through these things.  "Who is this person and what happened to my sweet little girl?" 

I also sense in your posts that you are looking at more punitive measures, and while that might work for some kids, I would actually try backing off a bit.  Don't just accept blatant disrespect, but don't let it drive you over the edge either.  If you find yourself getting overly upset, go cool off, and think of an appropriate punishment or consequence, natural ones are better.  I also wouldn't force sports either.  Let her find what she wants to do and support that.  My daughter is into music and art. 




Laura33

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When we demand it, it's because I think that clutter in space equals clutter in mind. Imposing order on the outside should help impose order on the inside.

Umm, you do realize that this is not true for everyone?  :-) 

My mom was really into order and structure, to the point that it drove her nuts if you left your shoes on the steps to go up or a dish in the sink.  I was thereby required to clean my room every Saturday, because that was The Way Things Should Be.  What she didn't realize is that I am the other way around:  my brain gets itchy when things are too pristine; I need a little clutter to be able to relax and feel at home.  AND I have a highly visual memory; to this day, if I file something away, there is a better-than-even chance that it will never be found again -- the "organization" method she insisted on just led to me losing track of things and feeling stupid/incompetent.  So my mom's "life lesson" (a) totally did NOT take, because it was so contrary to who I was and what I needed, and (b) just bred resentment that I couldn't have one. stupid. stinking. space. that was just me.  I mean, the whole freaking house was hers and had to be maintained to her standards (you want to talk habits and cleaning and organizational skills, you have the entire rest of the house to practice on).  But I couldn't have even one little spot that *I* could control as I liked. 

So you will not be surprised that this is a battle I intentionally chose not to fight with my kids.  I offer help if/when they feel overwhelmed.  There is no eating in their rooms (or electronic devices either).  But other than that, they get to experience the natural consequences of their choices (e.g., no, I'm not going to buy you new clothes when you can't show me what still fits and what doesn't).

Not to imply that there's anything wrong with asking a kid to pitch in when someone is going to be staying in there with her!  Common courtesy 101.  But rooms tend to epitomize the kid's need to break away and establish a separate identity from the parents and the family unit -- if you think about it, it's the first space outside her body that she gets to control.  When they're 2 and learning that they are a separate creature from mom, they will assert their independence by refusing to eat certain things, or by refusing to pee in the potty, or whatever, because the only thing they control is their own body.  By adolescence, they are now defining themselves as separate from the family unit, and so asserting their control over their own personal space is the next logical step.  Which is exactly why teens are frequently so touchy and resistant to parental interference -- each attempt to assert control over the room is really a direct attack on her own burgeoning independence. 

And of course, from my perspective as mom, it is a sort of ridiculously safe way for DD to assert her independence and separateness.  I mean, she could be out drinking or messing around, right?  But instead she wants to paint her walls teal and leave the extra mattress on the floor for when her friends come over, and then go hang out there and read a book?  Freaking awesome.

Tl;dr:  If disorder on the outside really does reflect disorder on the inside, then insisting that she clean the room to your standards tells her that who she is at that point isn't good enough and must be fixed.  Fix the cause, not the symptom.

galliver

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Seems a stretch to insist on a frugality/badassity forum that absolute control of one's room is necessary for healthy psychological development when many teens and kids manage to grow up just fine without ever having their own room. I didn't; wasn't in the budget. When I complained I was usually reminded that mom shared a bed with granny growing up.

Being able to clean/upkeep your living space to someone else's standard of comfort seems an important skill for college and young adult life with roommates and flatmates. (Though on the flip side, so is being able to put up with a little mess.) You don't want to raise the kid who then *needs* a single/own apartment.

MarioMario

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As a somewhat troubled pre teen I can recommend counseling.  I know they gave my parents suggestions to improve to.  It felt balanced to me instead of like they were just attacking me.

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green daisy

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I can't control him though, so I'm not sure what to do about that.  He is open to family counseling so maybe the counselor will get through to him.  He is also open to reading the parenting books I got from the library today.  He has never read a book in all the years I've known him or been open to any self improvement, so this is a positive step.

But the other thing I had to do was decide to take the lead in parenting.  It sucked, because we both had jobs, and I was seriously pissed off at having to manage a grown-ass man in addition to two young kids, because he couldn't grow the fuck up and behave like an adult [not that I'm still annoyed about that or anything].  But my #1 job was keeping them safe -- and I include emotionally in that term.  So for a couple of years, I intentionally tried to take the brunt of most of the two-kid duty and sent him off to be helpful doing other things.  And I threw the "unified front" idea out the window when he was losing it -- I just calmly told him to stop and took over whatever it was with the kids.

That obviously won't work if your DH is the primary caregiver and you aren't there when that stuff happens.  So good luck with the counseling; it sounds like your DH is more open to learning new things than mine was.  But keep in mind that if that doesn't help change the dynamic, you might want to consider other options.

I work 2-3 days a week and am gone until late evening.  He works very early mornings and is home by late morning.  So he's here during most waking hours. And with the house being small-ish, it's hard to keep him uninvolved, if that makes sense. But I will try your tactic.  I've been to 2 different divorce attorneys who both said he would get 50/50 custody if he wanted it. 

I really appreciate all that you (and everyone else) have said and I'm taking it all to heart.  The responses are so thorough and helpful. 
« Last Edit: June 13, 2017, 08:12:45 PM by green daisy »

Laura33

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Seems a stretch to insist on a frugality/badassity forum that absolute control of one's room is necessary for healthy psychological development when many teens and kids manage to grow up just fine without ever having their own room.

No one said it was necessary.  Just as it's not necessary for healthy psychological development to insist that your kid keep her room to some specified parental standard.  There's no such thing as a perfect parent or a perfect kid, and what works for one doesn't work for another, and most do just fine. 

OTOH, it is entirely natural for kids that age to seek out ways to proclaim their independence.  So if you happen to have a kid who chooses to do so through her room, and if it's causing unnecessary friction or your kid is having problems, you might want to consider whether that is a battle you really want to fight.


charis

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You are contemplating divorce? Is it possible that your marital problems have been affecting your daughter more than you realize?
« Last Edit: June 14, 2017, 05:16:51 AM by jezebel »

milliemchi

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I can't control him though, so I'm not sure what to do about that.  He is open to family counseling so maybe the counselor will get through to him.  He is also open to reading the parenting books I got from the library today.  He has never read a book in all the years I've known him or been open to any self improvement, so this is a positive step.

But the other thing I had to do was decide to take the lead in parenting.  It sucked, because we both had jobs, and I was seriously pissed off at having to manage a grown-ass man in addition to two young kids, because he couldn't grow the fuck up and behave like an adult [not that I'm still annoyed about that or anything].  But my #1 job was keeping them safe -- and I include emotionally in that term.  So for a couple of years, I intentionally tried to take the brunt of most of the two-kid duty and sent him off to be helpful doing other things.  And I threw the "unified front" idea out the window when he was losing it -- I just calmly told him to stop and took over whatever it was with the kids.

That obviously won't work if your DH is the primary caregiver and you aren't there when that stuff happens.  So good luck with the counseling; it sounds like your DH is more open to learning new things than mine was.  But keep in mind that if that doesn't help change the dynamic, you might want to consider other options.

I work 2-3 days a week and am gone until late evening.  He works very early mornings and is home by late morning.  So he's here during most waking hours. And with the house being small-ish, it's hard to keep him uninvolved, if that makes sense. But I will try your tactic.  I've been to 2 different divorce attorneys who both said he would get 50/50 custody if he wanted it. 

I really appreciate all that you (and everyone else) have said and I'm taking it all to heart.  The responses are so thorough and helpful.

I'm kind of in the same boat. I've talked a bit about the explosions with my husband, and it seems like sleep deprivation may be aggravating things (he works nights), which makes sense. So I've been slowly pushing the idea of going to bed after the night shift. I couldn't get commitment at the time, but over time, he spends more of Sundays and Mondays in bed. Not that sleep deprivation excuses abusive behavior, but as Laura33 says, the goal is to keep kids safe, so you focus on minimizing damage. Also, unified front - out the window. ("Why are you not keeping my side!?! You are supposed to support me!! Instead, you are sabotaging me!!!") Also, yes, yes, I am, at times, managing a grownup the way little kids need to be managed, and it's exhausting and it's maddening at times. But it has to be done. Also, very, very careful about consulting lawyers before a divorce... I don't know anyone with kids for whom things turned out the way they hoped they would.

Things will come to the best possible conclusion if you can avoid abusive behavior yourself. You've got plenty of suggestions for parenting books, and I will just throw out "Anger Management for Dummies". That book was life-changing for me. I read it to see if it would help my husband, but instead I realized that I too have an anger problem. The fact that I was controlling my behavior was not enough, I needed ways to dissipate my anger, not keep it under a lid. My life is so much better after learning how to not get angry, and this is why I am now able to close my eyes and breathe deeply and do what needs to be done without losing energy in anger and resentment and feeling that life is not fair (which would all be appropriate, but unhelpful). I'm throwing this out because I think you mentioned that you get angry at your daughter too. It's better when you don't get worked up. I do yell at my kids on occasion, but I do it for show, as feedback that they've done something wrong. It's fast and easy and immediate and time-limited - all good things. But, I'm not angry before, and I'm not worked up after, and I go back to being good, loving mom right after. Not getting angry is key.

milliemchi

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You are contemplating divorce? Is it possible that your marital problems have been effecting affecting your daughter more than you realize?

+1
More reason not to double-down on punishment. Also, more reason to consider counseling.

green daisy

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You are contemplating divorce? Is it possible that your marital problems have been effecting affecting your daughter more than you realize?

+1
More reason not to double-down on punishment. Also, more reason to consider counseling.

It wasn't recent.  Once 2 years ago, once 7 years ago.  I contemplate it on and off.  I mentioned it because there were a few hints (I think, unless I was misunderstanding) in some responses about divorcing. ETA I looked back.  It was regarding his yelling and saying that if it doesn't stop, I should consider other options.  Maybe I was misunderstanding. 

Marriage counseling was a pretty terrible experience.  Anyway, we aren't hostile towards each other and I can't fix a marriage with a person who fundamentally lacks integrity and honesty.  This has been a very long term issue. 
« Last Edit: June 13, 2017, 09:34:09 PM by green daisy »

milliemchi

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You are contemplating divorce? Is it possible that your marital problems have been effecting affecting your daughter more than you realize?

+1
More reason not to double-down on punishment. Also, more reason to consider counseling.

It wasn't recent.  Once 2 years ago, once 7 years ago.  I contemplate it on and off.  I mentioned it because there were a few hints (I think, unless I was misunderstanding) in some responses about divorcing.  Marriage counseling was a pretty terrible experience.  Anyway, we aren't hostile towards each other and I can't fix a marriage with a person who fundamentally lacks integrity and honesty.

All right... but this is all so much more than what the original post related.

Given all the complex issues... abusive childhood, husband/dad with temper issues, dysfunctional marriage... it's not surprising for your daughter to behave as she does. That could be a perfectly normal, though unfortunate, reaction.  Being a complete stranger on the internet, I would recommend: getting your temper/anger under control, positioning yourself as an ally, exposing/naming dad's bad behavior as such (denial is confusing for kids), validating her negative and threatening feelings, and just generally digging deep down to find the loving mother you are and putting yourself on your daughter's side (while protecting brother). This will involve ignoring a lot of disrespectful behavior, hence the need for anger management.

Also, sadly, if things are getting progressively worse, I would think about sexual abuse, even as it's highly unlikely. I wouldn't know how to go about it though. I'm sure there are resources on how to give your child an opportunity to safely talk to someone (counselor?).

11ducks

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Kids can be jerks. Consider selective ignoring. If you are starting a battle/confrontation every time she huffs or rolls her eyes or has a disrespectful tone, I'll bet there's a lot of arguing going on in your place. In any interaction, the first time she rolls her eyes or speaks with attitude, try not to immediately amp up/escalate the confrontation. Sometimes, ignoring the eye roll and continuing in a pleasant tone can stop it from becoming a big drama. If it continues after that, sure, address it, but often teens don't realise that they are sounding rude/angry. As an adult, it would be horrid if you were publicly chastised every time your tone wasn't perfect. If she does it without realising, then you have a go at her, she could be feeling persecuted (ie why is she always picking on me!). Your kids don't get to yell at you and send you to your room each time you aren't a perfect parent, they should get a little slack too. Yelling at her and cancelling dinner with her friend must have been mortifying for her.

My mom and I clashed horribly doing puberty.  She always (still now,
15 years on), had to be right and 'win' the argument/battle. She would shout and sulk and guilt trip until you apologised, regardless of who is at fault. Took me years to stop feeling guilty and immediately apologising any time I interacted with someone (ie you step on my foot, and I apologise). I'm not saying she isn't at fault here, but critically evaluating whether you are unintentionally not helping the situation may be helpful too. 
« Last Edit: June 14, 2017, 03:45:38 AM by 11ducks »

Laura33

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You are contemplating divorce? Is it possible that your marital problems have been effecting affecting your daughter more than you realize?

+1
More reason not to double-down on punishment. Also, more reason to consider counseling.

It wasn't recent.  Once 2 years ago, once 7 years ago.  I contemplate it on and off.  I mentioned it because there were a few hints (I think, unless I was misunderstanding) in some responses about divorcing.  Marriage counseling was a pretty terrible experience.  Anyway, we aren't hostile towards each other and I can't fix a marriage with a person who fundamentally lacks integrity and honesty.

All right... but this is all so much more than what the original post related.

Given all the complex issues... abusive childhood, husband/dad with temper issues, dysfunctional marriage... it's not surprising for your daughter to behave as she does. That could be a perfectly normal, though unfortunate, reaction.  Being a complete stranger on the internet, I would recommend: getting your temper/anger under control, positioning yourself as an ally, exposing/naming dad's bad behavior as such (denial is confusing for kids), validating her negative and threatening feelings, and just generally digging deep down to find the loving mother you are and putting yourself on your daughter's side (while protecting brother). This will involve ignoring a lot of disrespectful behavior, hence the need for anger management.

Also, sadly, if things are getting progressively worse, I would think about sexual abuse, even as it's highly unlikely. I wouldn't know how to go about it though. I'm sure there are resources on how to give your child an opportunity to safely talk to someone (counselor?).

Holy crap, all of this.  Long-term marital issues, underlain by a fundamental lack of respect between the two of you, adds a whole new level to this.

FWIW, my "problem" child has stress antennae like you wouldn't believe.  She has always been the canary in the coal mine -- sometimes, when she'd be acting up and I couldn't find an obvious cause, I would realize that *I* was stressed, or DH was stressed, and even though we thought we were acting normally, she sensed the difference.  Which circles back to family counseling, and maybe individual counseling for you privately to work through all of the stress you are under trying to hold everything together.

FWIW, I think I was the one who mentioned "other options," and I meant things like "paid daycare."  But I have also been sort of where you are: the only time I even considered divorce was when DH was losing it with the kids when DD was about 6 and DS was about 1.5, and I elected to stay and assume the burden for exactly the same reason you mentioned (how would it be better to leave them alone with him half of the time?).  I am sorry you are having to deal with this, because there is no simple/easy answer.

jscott2135

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I think counseling is a definite path to consider.  I was a horrible teenager, absolutely horrendous....hey look I turned out ok ;)  But depending on her personality you need to consider other things, obviously punishment doesn't work (for me it honestly was a quick way to ensure even more anger and resentment were fostered in my relationship with my parents.) It may sounds counter intuitive but (at least for me) I hated anyone telling me what to do, I truley wanted to be in control of my own life, so the more freedom and responsibility I was given the more I flourished. But in order to find out what is making her tick I think you need counseling, an outsider who will listen to her and who she may feel comfortable sharing more with.  Wish you he best of luck...teenagers scare me!!

BFGirl

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I haven't read the whole thread, but will chime in a bit to give you hope.  My daughter was horrible at that age.  Her brother would walk by and she would punch him for no reason that I knew of (not hard, but just being a little shit).  Of course, he was being annoying to her when we didn't see it.  She was ALWAYS angry.  All in all, it worked out and she and her brother are really good friends now, such that when my daughter turned 18, she asked if she could be his guardian if something happened to her dad or I.  He was good with that.  Even today, he is good with her being trustee over any funds he would inherit if I died in the next couple of years.

The "tween" years are the worst.

My daughter is 22 (still living with me while in school).  She gets mad easily and spouts off at me in ways that I wouldn't accept from anyone else.  I call her on it if it gets bad, but I have learned that it is her way of dealing with stress.  I rarely blow up at her anymore, but I do call her on her behavior and let her know when she is hurting my feelings.   As long as I am calm, she calms down much quicker than if it escalates or if I "preach" at her about her behavior.  She has gotten much better as she has matured more.  She has been my rock in some difficult times.

BFGirl

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Ok.  Now I've read the whole thread.  I think I have had an epiphany moment that perhaps my daughter is reactive to my stress level.  I need to explore this more.

To the OP.  If you have a dysfunctional marriage, that can cause a lot of stress in the family and the kids.  I fought the idea of divorce for a very long time thinking that it was better to stay together than to divorce (partly from a financial perspective and partly because I didn't want to put my kids through that trauma).  I feel like my ex also lacks integrity and honesty.  He also feels like his way is the only right way to do anything and that translated to him attempting to be very autocratic (luckily I am pretty stubborn, so he didn't get too far with that).  When he was in the house, everyone was way more stressed and tempers flared much more often.  I stayed for a long time because I was concerned that he would get 50/50 custody and I felt like I needed to be there to shield my kids from him.  When I finally divorced him, my kids became calmer and happier because they were out from under the stress of him and me fighting all the time (whether silently or out loud).  They were older  (youngest was barely 16) and elected to go with me.  As much as I hated to divorce, it was ultimately the best thing for my family.

I would at the very least advise you to get counseling for yourself.  I was stretched to the breaking point trying to work, deal with unhappy children and an unhappy marriage.  There were times I should have done things differently, but I was so stressed myself that I just couldn't cope with things.  Perhaps counseling will give you some tools to deal with your situation so that it isn't so overwhelming.

I wish you all the best.

Pigeon

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I think you've gotten some good advice.  I have a couple of teens.  One is easy going and always pleasant.  The other one is ...not.  She's older now, and she has outgrown the worst of the attitude, but for a year she was unbearable. 

We tried counseling.  She wouldn't participate.  We tried older counselors and younger ones and one with therapy dogs.  Dd was having none of it.  She's in college now, but I still think she'd benefit, but she won't hear about it.

We got the best results from staying calm and not catering to her nasty behavior.  Being mean didn't get her what she wanted.  It also didn't get a big rise out of us, which is what she often was looking for. 

Teens should come with instruction manuals.

milliemchi

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I stayed for a long time because I was concerned that he would get 50/50 custody and I felt like I needed to be there to shield my kids from him.

Yes, it's best to wait until kids are old enough to have their wishes taken into account, and also old enough to be able to process the dynamic and see right from wrong. Labeling behavior correctly is important (this is abuse, this is not, etc.), and so is making sure that you act in a sane manner. And if things improve in the meantime, and you both act in a sane manner, well that's a great outcome.

Pigeon

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One other thought, our rule is that the kids have to  participate in a minimum of one activity that has a moderately high demand (meets about at least once weekly).  Our schools have a million different offerings.  It doesn't have to be sports.  We didn't make our kids do any one thing, they got to decide what they wanted to do, but they had to do something.  There are musical groups, arts groups, dance, theatre, civic organizations, all kinds of things. 

My more challenging daughter resisted a bit, but it turns out music is one of  her passions and it helped teach her many different life lessons, as well as being a great, healthy outlet. Being in performing groups taught her about teamwork, and she learned that in order to be successful at some things, you need to work at it.  It helped her with time management.  It took her mind off some of the petty, mean girl stuff that goes on, and she made some friends who were good for her.  I do think that having too much time doing nothing isn't good for kids.  My other daughter is a real introvert, but she loves being in musical groups as well.

milliemchi

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What Laura33 said, down to staying because now I can at least intervene and stand up for my daughter, (and it's needed occasionally), instead of leaving her alone with an angry, resentful dad. (And he would be very resentful if I divorced.) Plus, I've caught him badmouthing me to my 4 year old and then he was unapologetic about it. This is now when we have a good relationship.  I can only imagine what he would say when I'm not around, _and_ he's pissed at me.

Also, as Laura33 said, kids pick up stress. When my daughter was a toddler, she behaved horribly, and I had to discipline all the time, and nothing was working. Then I was put on antidepressants, and she magically became this well-behaved kid. After a couple of cycles of this, I made the connection.

MrsPete

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As a teacher and the mother of girls, I'll say this:  12-13 is the pits for girls.  It may be different for boys.  You'll find that things will really turn around about the time she turns 14.  Her mind will mature to the point that she'll understand that cooperation garners more rewards than rebellion, even if she doesn't agree with you. 

I agree with much of what's been said, but I'll throw out these thoughts too:

- Consider taking her on a mother-daughter weekend so the two of you can have some fun time together.  Make sure it's something that interests her and involve her in the planning.  NO friends on this trip. Just the two of you.  Similarly, my husband used to take our girls out for dinner ... one at a time.  They LOVED having personal time with Dad and looked forward to those evenings immensely. 

- You say she's a the top of her weight limit and gravitates towards junk food ... consider the two of you signing up for something like a Yoga class.  Something that leans towards adult, something that could become a bonding activity between the two of you -- and it'd be healthy as well.

- About her sleep ... is she leaving her phone on the kitchen counter?  All too many teens text one another during the night, and you don't want her to have interrupted sleep. 

anon370417

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Reading this thread, I wanted to solicit more conversation  from some of the posters on a related topic, but not derail this important thread, so I started a new one on how people express feelings and how this affects relationships and families.  https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/off-topic/peopulewho-yell-and-other-expressions-of-feelings/

Please participate if this interests you!

green daisy

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You are contemplating divorce? Is it possible that your marital problems have been effecting affecting your daughter more than you realize?

+1
More reason not to double-down on punishment. Also, more reason to consider counseling.

It wasn't recent.  Once 2 years ago, once 7 years ago.  I contemplate it on and off.  I mentioned it because there were a few hints (I think, unless I was misunderstanding) in some responses about divorcing.  Marriage counseling was a pretty terrible experience.  Anyway, we aren't hostile towards each other and I can't fix a marriage with a person who fundamentally lacks integrity and honesty.

All right... but this is all so much more than what the original post related.

Given all the complex issues... abusive childhood, husband/dad with temper issues, dysfunctional marriage... it's not surprising for your daughter to behave as she does. That could be a perfectly normal, though unfortunate, reaction.  Being a complete stranger on the internet, I would recommend: getting your temper/anger under control, positioning yourself as an ally, exposing/naming dad's bad behavior as such (denial is confusing for kids), validating her negative and threatening feelings, and just generally digging deep down to find the loving mother you are and putting yourself on your daughter's side (while protecting brother). This will involve ignoring a lot of disrespectful behavior, hence the need for anger management.

Also, sadly, if things are getting progressively worse, I would think about sexual abuse, even as it's highly unlikely. I wouldn't know how to go about it though. I'm sure there are resources on how to give your child an opportunity to safely talk to someone (counselor?).

Holy crap, all of this.  Long-term marital issues, underlain by a fundamental lack of respect between the two of you, adds a whole new level to this.

FWIW, my "problem" child has stress antennae like you wouldn't believe.  She has always been the canary in the coal mine -- sometimes, when she'd be acting up and I couldn't find an obvious cause, I would realize that *I* was stressed, or DH was stressed, and even though we thought we were acting normally, she sensed the difference.  Which circles back to family counseling, and maybe individual counseling for you privately to work through all of the stress you are under trying to hold everything together.

FWIW, I think I was the one who mentioned "other options," and I meant things like "paid daycare."  But I have also been sort of where you are: the only time I even considered divorce was when DH was losing it with the kids when DD was about 6 and DS was about 1.5, and I elected to stay and assume the burden for exactly the same reason you mentioned (how would it be better to leave them alone with him half of the time?).  I am sorry you are having to deal with this, because there is no simple/easy answer.

I'm sorry for misunderstanding what you meant.  Thank you for clarifying and for all your helpful responses. 

green daisy

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I think counseling is a definite path to consider.  I was a horrible teenager, absolutely horrendous....hey look I turned out ok ;)  But depending on her personality you need to consider other things, obviously punishment doesn't work (for me it honestly was a quick way to ensure even more anger and resentment were fostered in my relationship with my parents.) It may sounds counter intuitive but (at least for me) I hated anyone telling me what to do, I truley wanted to be in control of my own life, so the more freedom and responsibility I was given the more I flourished. But in order to find out what is making her tick I think you need counseling, an outsider who will listen to her and who she may feel comfortable sharing more with.  Wish you he best of luck...teenagers scare me!!

I love this comment.  Thank you!!

green daisy

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Once again, thank you to everyone who responded.  I wish we had a like button so I could go through and like your advice.  And I also received some amazing and supportive PMs that made my day. 

My daughter and I signed up for a 5k, I have some helpful books from the library, and am calling tomorrow to set up counseling. 

That said, I'm a bit triggered by some responses that felt victim-shamey regarding my childhood, which is something I've never felt before.  I think the comments came with good intentions, but it's best for me to step away from this thread at this point. 
« Last Edit: June 14, 2017, 08:56:09 PM by green daisy »

milliemchi

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Good luck!

Lski'stash

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    • A Teacher's Journey to FI in the Mitten State
Yes, your daughter is running your household. When you gave the privileges back, was it because she changed her behavior or because she kept at you to give them back?

Have you tried Love & Logic? This system is over 35 years old & it works. I first learned about it because DS' teachers in grade school used it, so I did a class with the parenting version. There are many books & videos available on the LoveAndLogic.com website.

In a nutshell, L&L allows parents to allow the child to choose from options you pre-approve & utilizes natural consequences for bad behavior. You cannot reason with an angry child; the child earns the right to speak with you only in calm & kind tones. For example, instead of cancelling your son's birthday dinner, you have a baby sitter on standby so your daughter loses the party instead of your son, & she gets charged for the sitter. No friend. No social events until the room gets cleaned according to your list or directions. In some cases, a child who slammed their bedroom door repeatedly came home to find the door removed. You don't have to come up with a consequence on the spot -- in fact it's often more effective to say you'll deal with it later while expecting her to go to her room while you get your positive energy back.

Love & Logic saved my sanity & helped me be a loving, guiding, & patient parent. DS got to the point where all I had to ask was whether he wanted to choose a consequence if he continued what he was doing, & I only said it once -- he knew I'd always follow through. (We had absolutely no problems in his teen years & he's an amazing person at 23 today.)

L&L does advise that if you are still having anger & defiant issues after 3 months of following its program, then professional counseling for the entire family should be considered.

Love and Logic works well, but only if it's followed through with, as with any other behavior management tool.

I use pieces of Love and Logic in my classroom, but the behavior management tool I really like is from a behavior management program called Capturing Kids Hearts. It's called a.social contact. Every one in the household would sit down and agree on words that describe how they want to be treated, how the adult s want to be treated, how kids and adults should treat each other, and how to solve conflict. Write he words down that everyone agrees with, and make sure to talk about what each word means (for example, what Respec t looks like). Once a contract is agreed upon, everyone signs it, and agrees to the consequences of not following it. In my classroom, one redirect is a warning, a second redirect is loss of a hall pass, third is a lunch detention. They know it's a warning because I have the warning phrases posted (what are you doing? What are you supposed to be doing? Are you doing it? What are you going to do about it? ) There's a different set of questions for disrespectful treatment (who are you talking to? How do you talk to me/adult? Are you talking to me respectfully? What are you going to do?) Make sure everyone agrees to the contract and signs it knowing g there will be consequences for repeated breaches.

For major breaches of contract, I will then turn to Love and Logic. Make sure it's a logical consequence for the crime that won't hurt anyone elses day (especially yours!) For example, I never assign kids to work during lunch for not  doing their homework because then I'd miss lunch! I stead they get 75% the next day or 90% if it has a parent signature.

Most importantly, follow through! If the kids see that they can get away with things and can treat each other or you disrespectfully without being called out, then it was pointless to do in the first place.

Also, do please call the counselor. Lots of kids and adults see them these days, and there's not nearly as much stigma as there used to be. She does need some strategies to help her cope and direct her anger.