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Learning, Sharing, and Teaching => Ask a Mustachian => Topic started by: green daisy on June 12, 2017, 06:50:17 AM
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For the last few years, our daughter's attitude has become very difficult. It's becoming steadily worse. She screams at her younger brother several times a day. For example, there was a baby deer on our yard and he said "come look out the window!" She screamed "Stop talking to me! Don't speak to me!" She was looking for an ice pop yesterday and there were none left. I heard her screaming "Those animals ate all the ice pops!" She was referring to my son and his friend who each ate 1 ice pop. She ate the majority of them. She screams at her brother to "shut his little mouth." When we discipline her for her behavior, she says things like we don't understand how stressful her life is, that we love her brother more and are taking his side, or she screams "stop yelling at me" (we sometimes yell but not usually) or "get out of my room."
Last night, we were supposed to go out to dinner for our son's birthday. They each were allowed to invite a friend and the friends were here for the afternoon to swim. We had told her in the morning that she would have to clean her room that day. She didn't. After a day full of her attitude, we realized she hadn't cleaned her room. We told her she would have to clean it before we left for dinner. She yelled about how horrible we are. Complained to her friend about how awful her life is. Huffed around the house stomping her feet and slamming doors. I cancelled dinner. I said I was not spending all this money on going out to a restaurant to have a miserable time because of her attitude. As you can imagine, she took this very well (sarcasm). We ordered pizza, fed the friends, and took them home.
We have tried taking away her iPod, taking away TV/electronics, grounding her from friends. We have tried involving her in more positive activities, like 4H and band. She isn't athletic and hates team sports.
She has a victim mentality. If she gets a bad grade, it's because the teacher doesn't like her, etc.
I'm really finding myself becoming very angry with her. I'm trying to hold it in but it's becoming very difficult and I've just barely held back from completely losing it and screaming at her. Summer break is coming up and I just don't know how I'm going to manage with her.
What I'm planning on doing is sending her to her room for every eye roll or hostile tone and telling her she can come back out when she's ready to behave positively. I'd also like to ban Disney Channel shows because the entire premise is that the parents are idiots and the little brothers are annoying. This can't be helping. My husband would never back me on that one though and he's mostly home with them in the afternoons/evenings. I took her iPod yesterday (pretty much acts as a phone as long as she has wifi). I told her she's not getting it back until I see a clear, consistent improvement in her attitude.
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Maybe counseling for her individually and/or family therapy? It sounds like there is no amount of punishment that is going to bother her.
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How old is she?
Based on what you've described, I think taking her to see a counselor is a good idea.
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How old is she?
Based on what you've described, I think taking her to see a counselor is a good idea.
She will be 12 next month. I think this my own personal hangup, but my mother tried to get me to go to counseling as a teen and I was mortified. I'm concerned that my daughter will think she is defective or accept it as her personal truth that she isn't mentally sound. As an adult, I of coarse don't see it this way. But as a child, I did. I have reached out to a friend who is a counselor and she gave me a recommendation. I will call.
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Best of luck to you!
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Yes, your daughter is running your household. When you gave the privileges back, was it because she changed her behavior or because she kept at you to give them back?
Have you tried Love & Logic? This system is over 35 years old & it works. I first learned about it because DS' teachers in grade school used it, so I did a class with the parenting version. There are many books & videos available on the LoveAndLogic.com website.
In a nutshell, L&L allows parents to allow the child to choose from options you pre-approve & utilizes natural consequences for bad behavior. You cannot reason with an angry child; the child earns the right to speak with you only in calm & kind tones. For example, instead of cancelling your son's birthday dinner, you have a baby sitter on standby so your daughter loses the party instead of your son, & she gets charged for the sitter. No friend. No social events until the room gets cleaned according to your list or directions. In some cases, a child who slammed their bedroom door repeatedly came home to find the door removed. You don't have to come up with a consequence on the spot -- in fact it's often more effective to say you'll deal with it later while expecting her to go to her room while you get your positive energy back.
Love & Logic saved my sanity & helped me be a loving, guiding, & patient parent. DS got to the point where all I had to ask was whether he wanted to choose a consequence if he continued what he was doing, & I only said it once -- he knew I'd always follow through. (We had absolutely no problems in his teen years & he's an amazing person at 23 today.)
L&L does advise that if you are still having anger & defiant issues after 3 months of following its program, then professional counseling for the entire family should be considered.
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For the last few years, our daughter's attitude has become very difficult. It's becoming steadily worse. She screams at her younger brother several times a day. For example, there was a baby deer on our yard and he said "come look out the window!" She screamed "Stop talking to me! Don't speak to me!" She was looking for an ice pop yesterday and there were none left. I heard her screaming "Those animals ate all the ice pops!" She was referring to my son and his friend who each ate 1 ice pop. She ate the majority of them. She screams at her brother to "shut his little mouth." When we discipline her for her behavior, she says things like we don't understand how stressful her life is, that we love her brother more and are taking his side, or she screams "stop yelling at me" (we sometimes yell but not usually) or "get out of my room."
Last night, we were supposed to go out to dinner for our son's birthday. They each were allowed to invite a friend and the friends were here for the afternoon to swim. We had told her in the morning that she would have to clean her room that day. She didn't. After a day full of her attitude, we realized she hadn't cleaned her room. We told her she would have to clean it before we left for dinner. She yelled about how horrible we are. Complained to her friend about how awful her life is. Huffed around the house stomping her feet and slamming doors. I cancelled dinner. I said I was not spending all this money on going out to a restaurant to have a miserable time because of her attitude. As you can imagine, she took this very well (sarcasm). We ordered pizza, fed the friends, and took them home.
We have tried taking away her iPod, taking away TV/electronics, grounding her from friends. We have tried involving her in more positive activities, like 4H and band. She isn't athletic and hates team sports.
She has a victim mentality. If she gets a bad grade, it's because the teacher doesn't like her, etc.
I'm really finding myself becoming very angry with her. I'm trying to hold it in but it's becoming very difficult and I've just barely held back from completely losing it and screaming at her. Summer break is coming up and I just don't know how I'm going to manage with her.
What I'm planning on doing is sending her to her room for every eye roll or hostile tone and telling her she can come back out when she's ready to behave positively. I'd also like to ban Disney Channel shows because the entire premise is that the parents are idiots and the little brothers are annoying. This can't be helping. My husband would never back me on that one though and he's mostly home with them in the afternoons/evenings. I took her iPod yesterday (pretty much acts as a phone as long as she has wifi). I told her she's not getting it back until I see a clear, consistent improvement in her attitude.
She sounds very angry. I remember being very angry at this age too. It was more due to a build up anger from previous incidents in my childhood, infidelity in my parents marriage and having to hear them fighting.
I ended up talking to a counselor for only one session but I think it did help acknowledge to myself and my parents that I had a reason to be angry and where it was coming from. I would recommend her "talking to someone about what she is feeling". A safe place she can say whatever she wants. Maybe a counselor or whatever but put it to her in way like that. I didn't feel there was anything wrong with me but I just didn't understand why I was so angry.
Eventually I let it go and moved on. My mom and I are a lot alike so we tended to clash as well. Also at that age I think kids are trying to find their self identity and push the family away to try and find who they are on their own. It may also help for YOU to talk to someone on how to deal with her behavior and understand it so that you don't get angry. My mom also would offer to bring me mCDonalds every Friday for lunch at school if I didn't "sass" her that week. It worked pretty well and I enjoyed my treat. So instead of taking things away I worked toward a reward.
I never realized Disney channel has such a story line, I'll have to keep that in mind as my daughter is only a toddler.
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How old is she?
Based on what you've described, I think taking her to see a counselor is a good idea.
She will be 12 next month. I think this my own personal hangup, but my mother tried to get me to go to counseling as a teen and I was mortified. I'm concerned that my daughter will think she is defective or accept it as her personal truth that she isn't mentally sound. As an adult, I of coarse don't see it this way. But as a child, I did. I have reached out to a friend who is a counselor and she gave me a recommendation. I will call.
My family had family and individual counseling when I was about that age and we all fought it tooth and nail. No progress because we were so dead set against it.
I think girls are just difficult at that age, but there are some things you can do that might get through. I'm not an expert, but I do remember some of the things that helped me when I was that age and horrible child. If you can find moments when she's not being aggressive, try to use those moments.
Don't be confrontational when saying these things. Be the caring mom. Wanting to help her. So don't approach when either you or she is angry.
- Tell her that her behavior is partly driven by hormones, that you know she still loves you/brother/father, but that the word and actions just are very hurtful to other people. Just recognizing this may help deal with it differently.
- Tell her that her behavior is unattractive and she cannot go through life being mean to other people.
- Tell her that a lot of times when people lash out at other people, it reveals a self-hatred and a self-loathing. Tell her you love her and you want her to be able to love other people and not be filled with anger or hate.
- Google "Amy Cuddy Power Pose" and then watch the 15 minute Ted Talk. Use the PowerPose before dealing with her. It will help. I promise. After you've mastered it, share it with your daughter and have her use it too. It physically changes the levels of stress hormones in your body. Have this be a shared secret between you two and something to laugh about together or suggest to each other in times of stress.
As mentioned above, I was not a nice child and when people were able to get through to me, it was usually something about how others would perceive me if I didn't try to be kind. Not just appear to be kind -- but really mean it. I guess it was learning empathy.
Good luck. Smile and remember how much your daughter needs you to remain calm and help her through these difficult years.
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BTDT. You are in a no-win situation, because any punishment just verifies her view of herself as the victim.
So, 1, counseling. You guys need a reboot, a new way of interacting. FWIW, we framed it as "family" counseling -- in my case, I wanted DH to learn better ways of dealing with her, so I bullshitted *him* into thinking it was about *her*. You can do the opposite.
2. 1-2-3 Magic. Easier with little kids, but the key bit is that it forces you to respond *before* you lose your shit. Do not yell, do not get visibly angry, do not let her see you sweat. The more volatile the kid, the calmer you need to be. When you lose it, they feel *less* safe -- because they know you are supposed to be the rock, and so if they can poke and prod you into moving, well, what do they have that is stable?
3. Physical checkup. Doctor is good, but also do you own assessment -- sufficient sleep, healthy foods, etc. Is she in the wrong classes at school, is there an issue with friends, etc. Also, I see you said she is 12 -- OMG, yes, THE worst age with us. With my own DD, the 6 months before she had her first period were sheer hell, and we can still tell when it's coming on by the pretty dramatic change in volatility. So if this is a recent uptick, it is very likely hormonally-driven. Not that it excuses it -- as I've said to my own DD, yes, it totally sucks and it's not fair, but you are going to have these intense feelings and mood swings for probably 40 years or so, so you need to learn ways to recognize and deal with them. But have a little empathy and treat her like you used to when she was a toddler -- expecting her to be calm and pleasant when she has PMS is like taking a hungry toddler to the mall during nap time. :-) So if/when you can identify a pattern, try to set her up for success during those periods, with lower expectations, fewer plans, some nice calm reading time alone, or family movie time, etc.
4. Catch her doing something right. This is SO the hard part!! But right now you are in a riff where the only way she is getting attention is by misbehaving, and so since she craves attention, it creates a vicious cycle. You need to pair giving her less attention for the bad stuff (the 1-2-3 Magic recommendation) with more attention for the good stuff. And I mean any little thing -- if she manages to storm off instead of yelling at her brother, that is a win, let her know you noticed how she kept control of herself around him.
5. Give her more responsibility. When my DD gets into a rut of being an entitled nasty creature, I figure I have made life too easy for her, so she gets more chores. But the key is the chores are "grown-up" chores that help her feel independent and responsible and grow her skills. E.g., when my own DD was insufferably 12, it became making dinner for the family (which I chose for DD because she has always been interested in cooking -- and this week, btw, my now-16-year-old is making us dinner every night!). The first few times, I was working at home but in the other room, so she could figure it out herself but come get me with questions, and it was actually good one-on-one time. Added bonus is that it gives you an opportunity to catch her doing something right.
6. Find ways to spend time one-on-one with her. Make it fun -- you guys need some time to remember that you love each other and just relax.
7. Look for opportunities to let her open up. If you can find a calm time, you can ask if there is something going on, how she's feeling, because she is too nice a person to act this way, etc.
8. Cut way back on the criticism. I know this is counterintuitive when they are acting like total shits, but she is a walking open wound right now, and every hint of criticism is pouring salt in it. I drew the line at hurting her brother or saying nasty things to us -- that happened, she was gone immediately, no questions, no arguments (again, 1-2-3 Magic), and the rest of us continued on with whatever we were doing. But general whining, complaining, etc., eh, water off a duck's back. A/k/a pick your battles -- and when you do engage, do it with as few words and as calm a manner as possible.
9. Pay attention to what she does, not what she says. My DD tends to be very verbal, and I have noticed that she will vent and kvetch and complain to me -- and then she gets it out of her system and goes and does whatever it is she is supposed to do. This happens a lot with tests -- so the drama, "I'm going to fail!!!" and then she does just fine. If this is how she is built, you might need to work on your ability to take all the words less seriously. I found it almost impossible not to respond, because I had advice! I could make it better! But the talking was just her way of venting stress -- she didn't want me to fix it for her, and in fact my "helpful" responses just made it worse, because she read it as me not having confidence that she could solve her problems on her own.
10. Always send the message that she is a great kid and you have confidence she will get through whatever it is. Most especially when you are despairing that she will end up in jail for fratricide. :-) The only way to replace the voice in her head telling her she is worthless and bad is yours telling her she is good, even when she is bad. E.g., my "you are way too nice a kid for me to let you be mean to your brother" comment above. Or "you are way too competent for me to let you get away with not cleaning your room." The point is that she is not living up to her own standards.
11. Be a Smother occasionally. Ever seen The Goldbergs? I spent the first season laughing at the mom, thinking, OMG, I never want to be the mom who can't see her kid's faults. But then I realized that sometimes, that's exactly what our kids need. They have a whole world telling them they are stupid, fat, lazy, whatever; they need us to be the ones who tell them they're perfect and take their side [even when they're wrong] and say "you got this." I did this one time in the car, and I truly think it was a turning point. DD and I got into a squabble about missing assignments or something, and she was feeding me lots of excuses that I knew were crap, and we went from having a nice conversation to total snark to pissy stony silence in like 45 seconds. And I said to myself, crap, I really blew that. What would the Smother do? So I said, OK, I really blew that, I'm sorry I jumped on you, let me that again -- I know you've got this, so what's your plan? I asked if she needed me to help out, or if she wanted to go to her teacher herself to figure out the missing assignments -- "Because I'm your Smother and I am perfectly happy to go marching into that school and ask your teacher wtf she thinks she's doing not giving you the makeup work." [Of course, I also knew that the idea of her mother storming into school was the *last* thing DD wanted] And we ended up having a great talk, and she was actually giggling by the end.
12. Realize there's only so much you can control or fix. My DS is my DD's favorite punching bag. That is where I draw the line -- I tell her that I wouldn't let anyone treat her that way, and so I am not going to let her treat him that way. But, my God, it's like spitting into a hurricane sometimes. So I also had to acknowledge that she is going to reap what she sows. I can't turn her into a warm fuzzy person; she has an edge to her, and she always will, and in fact that is part of what makes her great. So if she is a shit to her brother, she is just going to not have a good relationship with him when he grows up. And it sucks, but in the end that's her decision to make. She is hardheaded and so determined to be independent that she will bullheadedly insist on making her own mistakes instead of learning from mine. It kills me to see her doing stupid stuff, but as long as it isn't stuff that will take her totally off-track, I give her the leeway to make her own decisions.
13. Make sure the little brother isn't poking the bear. Siblings definitely have their own language and relationships, and angelic little brothers have been known to intentionally annoy their older siblings in the hope that sis gets caught and gets busted. Not that that excuses nastiness, but it's the difference between removing one vs. removing both.
Sorry you are going through this. It sucks, and there is no 100% effective fix. But I have to say, life has gotten a lot smoother for us, knock on wood -- DD craves independence and competence, and so now that she is getting older and I am giving her lots of free rein and treating her more like an adult, the nastiness has really cut down quite a bit.
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Yes, your daughter is running your household. When you gave the privileges back, was it because she changed her behavior or because she kept at you to give them back?
Have you tried Love & Logic? This system is over 35 years old & it works. I first learned about it because DS' teachers in grade school used it, so I did a class with the parenting version. There are many books & videos available on the LoveAndLogic.com website.
In a nutshell, L&L allows parents to allow the child to choose from options you pre-approve & utilizes natural consequences for bad behavior. You cannot reason with an angry child; the child earns the right to speak with you only in calm & kind tones. For example, instead of cancelling your son's birthday dinner, you have a baby sitter on standby so your daughter loses the party instead of your son, & she gets charged for the sitter. No friend. No social events until the room gets cleaned according to your list or directions. In some cases, a child who slammed their bedroom door repeatedly came home to find the door removed. You don't have to come up with a consequence on the spot -- in fact it's often more effective to say you'll deal with it later while expecting her to go to her room while you get your positive energy back.
Love & Logic saved my sanity & helped me be a loving, guiding, & patient parent. DS got to the point where all I had to ask was whether he wanted to choose a consequence if he continued what he was doing, & I only said it once -- he knew I'd always follow through. (We had absolutely no problems in his teen years & he's an amazing person at 23 today.)
L&L does advise that if you are still having anger & defiant issues after 3 months of following its program, then professional counseling for the entire family should be considered.
I just put a hold on the Love and Logic (teenage version) after reading this post. Thank you for the advice!
OP, we are dealing with some attitude issues with my 11 year old DS, so you are not alone. He's an amazing kid....everyone loves him and he's respectful to everyone except his parents. I think we've spiraled into a hole of negativity and we are all feeding off of each other and we really need to turn it around. Our biggest issue currently, is that DS is very impulsive with his words and when he gets upset, nastiness just flies out of his mouth. He called me a "jerk" at his brother's baseball game the other day because I got mad at him for repeatedly asking for crap from the concession stand after I told him no.
That is another thing that we are dealing with....he does not take "no" for an answer. He is the most persistent (and intense) kid I have EVER met....and it usually ends in either his dad or myself losing our marbles because he keeps asking for things over....and over.....and over....even after an answer has been given.
Anyway, we are trying to work through it...but it feels really difficult right now.
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Oh my goodness. Thank you all so much for the amazing responses!! I knew you were the right group to ask! I'm taking all the advice to heart. All of it. And I will read Love and Logic. I appreciate that you guys have given me actionable steps to take. You have made my day!
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Basically ditto on Laura 33. I was this kid, and there was really no outward family reason for my anger. I think, in retrospect, it was partly hormones, partly being overweight, partly hating myself, partly feeling trapped, and partly dealing with being social awkward and having huge amounts of social anxiety. I was like a animal trying to gnaw my paw from the bear trap of a loving family. Doesn't make any sense, but that is what it felt like and I hurt myself and others. I understand now that a lot of the angst I felt was because didn't fit a variety of standards, which you become aware of in middle school, and feel helpless against.
This person cannot always verbalize or understand where their frustration or anger is coming from. Really, the only way I can describe it is feeling like 2 year old. Just blinding anger that takes over. And you get more angry because you can't explain it. When I was 15 and 16, I would hole up in my room for hours to avoid interacting with my family, because I knew good things didn't come of it and I was trying to protect myself and them.
I don't know if a counselor would help. It would've made me feel more shamed, as if something was really mentally wrong with me. I already felt so terrible about myself, I don't know if talking to a stranger at that age would have made a difference. Really, cut back on criticism, especially when it comes to appearance or the body. Make it clear to your daughter that it's okay to feel anger, to feel sad, to feel stressed. These are all normal feelings, but how we respond to them is what is important. These feelings may be new and overwhelming. Being in happy family when you're angry and depressed is awful, because your unhappiness is magnified.
5) More responsibility and throw them into social situations where they have to not be total assholes. Let them deal with the consequences of their actions. This sounds strange, but give her more ways to act like an adult. It is sooooooo easy to take your family for granted at this age, so pack them off to camp, dump them at a youth group, and leave them at choir practice. Distance. Throw them out into the water and let them learn to swim.
13) Poking the bear. My siblings LOVED to goad me into an enormous outburst. This pattern of interaction lasted well into my 20s, even after I calmed down around 18. The habit was still there for them, and the fearful and curious looks when they would poke just to see what would happen. Make sure both know that the outburst and and the goading are inappropriate.
On the other side of it (and it will get better), I hated high school and am in contact with exactly no one from high school. I made long, lasting friendships in college, am happily married, and have good relationships with my parents and siblings and chat with them regularly. I thrived when I left the family because I was able to explore new identities and new ways of interaction. Do I live a least a day's drive away from my family? Yes. I can't stay with them for more than a few days because it reminds me of all the anger I felt, and those are tough memories.
I do have an edge and do continue to be more aggressive and I still find social situations extremely stressful. Your 12 year old is just embarking on this, but it will get better as they learn different ways of coping and meet new people who respond differently. One on one conversations are good, and they'll be more open with you now than in 3 years. This person is thinking of themselves a unit for the first time, and you are thinking about the family as a unit and how they fit into to or don't. There's a mismatch in units because this person can't value the family the way you do at the moment.
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One of the most effective things my parents ever did... I was probably 11, had a friend over, and when my mom wouldn't let us do something (not sure if we wanted to go someplace late, or use electronics). I said to my friend something like "ugh, she's so stupid." A few hours later, after my friend had gone home, I discovered my mother wasn't speaking to me. Over the next day or two, I discovered I was also effectively grounded, since she wouldn't take me anywhere or allow me to have friends over or use TV or computer (and neither would dad, though he still spoke to me). Probably took me 3 days total of preteen stubbornness to (a) realize that parents have feelings, and are not, in fact, rocks; (b) realize I had hurt my mom's feelings by being rude, and behind her back at that (c) realize all that my mom/parents did for me "above and beyond" the bare minimum and (d) come up with a genuine, tearful apology and reconcile with her.
I can't say it was a magic cure-all and we never had a conflict again, but I don't think I was ever willfully nasty to/about them. And of course, looking back from an adult perspective, I realize that was probably *so* much harder (esp to keep up for that long!) than just chewing me out and revoking a privilege. It was a more adult, natural consequence (if you're a shit to people as an adult, they don't want to associate with you).
And fwiw, my relationship with my 5 years younger sister improved dramatically at 12/7 yo respectively when we gained an interest in common...Which happened to be an obsession with all things Harry Potter. Not sure anyone could have predicted or created that, though.
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Following...and empathizing!
My kid (boy, 12) has been having "moments" since January. It is very weird. Probably 95% of the time he is sweet, kind, happy...and then...wtf?
To add to all the excellent thoughts already posted, I will add that I'm bringing Kid to a functional doctor, to consider underlying physical things (diet, allergies, mineral dependencies, etc). Because if it can be remedied easily, or remedied with some front loading, I say why not? :) Such things triggered a 180 in him when he was 3, so it feels worth an investigation.
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Part of it is just typical bratty teenage crap. Just need to get some kind of handle before it goes to full on rebellion. My friend did take away Disney channel and other similar shows and it made a huge difference on her daughters attitude. Consistency is key. As much as they think they don't want boundaries and whatnot, they do much better with them and thrive with them. But just keep loving her through it. Good luck. That age is extremely annoying. LOL!
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Checking in as another difficult teenage girl.
In my case, it was a combination of undiagnosed mild anxiety and my parents did not handle it well. Their parenting skills topped out when I was about 12, and I chafed under it horribly. My mother is a pre-k teacher, so just imagine her coming home and bringing her preschool teacher voice with her and speaking to 15, 16, 18 year old me like I'm 7. I HATED IT, but because our family system was pretty dysfunctional, I could never bring up how much it (or anything else that hurt my feelings) bothered me or have that be received well (so nothing would ever be fixed or repaired), so I just kept quiet while the resentment and prickliness built and built to the point where every single interaction would just bristle with tension and anger. I was a good kid, never hung with bad kids, always did my homework, never got into trouble, but my parents made every single interaction seem as though they thought I was incompetent, mean, dumb (they never said it, but combination patronizing baby voice and lack of autonomy or trust made it strongly feel that way).
My brother would also intentionally goad me to the point of an outburst, but none of us in the family ever developed or learned good coping skills so I handled it the only way I knew how to make it stop: by screaming and scaring him to get away from me. No other method would make the poking, teasing, annoying behavior stop, no matter how calm I was or if I left or anything (he would just follow and gleefully continue). It felt like I was harassed into a corner with only one option, and then punished for it.
Then, because of the family system where nothing is every brought up or repaired, my resentment and frustration with my brother was at the same tension point where every interaction just brought out the monster.
What a relief it was to go to college. I finally was treated like a capable adult. I kept my own schedule, made lots of friends, did my homework, totally thrived, and I managed it all just fine. But going home during the summers just threw into stark relief how badly my family unintentionally treated me, and again, it was now ingrained that you never, ever bring up frustrations, so it was an almost instant change when I came back from breaks because that atmosphere was still there. At college, I was outgoing and calm and happy, and going home it was like a switch flipped, just chafing and angry and frustrated. 20 years of vague resentment would descend.
Honestly, the thing that I wish my parents did is two-fold: 1) realized how much they themselves were contributing to the dynamic and 2) simply adopted the mantra of "don't make it worse".
If your DD is being a little shit, don't make the situation worse. Don't yell, don't put your emotional needs ahead of hers, don't crack down on her. I'm putting myself in your daughters shoes and this behavior is a cry for help. Your child has a problem that needs to be solved, but SHE is not THE problem. My parents behaved as if *I*, the person, were the problem, which falls into the category of "making it worse"--it spiraled the situation out of control, and often them doing that would escalate the situation beyond expectations. They didn't want to help me or help repair an issue I was having, they simply wanted my outside behavior to be perfect, but didn't recognize, let alone help me manage, the inner turmoil and hurt. That is a recipe for feelings boiling over uncontrollably and unexpectedly. When big upset feelings are kept under wraps, that just causes the feelings to come out sideways and in unrelated areas--those feelings NEED to be expressed and released, somehow, but if it doesn't feel safe for her, that's when you will see aggression and frustration in unexpected areas.
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I wanted to add that counseling would have been SO HELPFUL for me. I may have felt a little embarrassed about it, but I had a lot of big feelings that my family system wasn't allowing me to process or express. Family counseling would have helped us create better interactions and help release the pressure cooker of my frustration and resentment, by giving me the language and tools to help express myself in a healthy way and giving my parents the tools to actually receive it in a healthy way (instead of switching on the shame, blame, outrage in response which just trained me to avoid anything except shallow interactions that just reminded me of how unanchored and unloved I felt. It was a vicious, HIDDEN cycle).
I think it could be helpful for your daughter, also, but that means you have to frame it very carefully. Maybe start going to counseling yourself to learn how you may be contributing to the dynamic and learn healthy responses or ideas on how to handle it, and then slowly introduce her to it and bring her in for joint sessions, framed as her helping YOU learn better behavior, then have her go to a few sessions alone to have the therapist nudge out what's going on for her and if she needs additional resources or help. If you start going alone, you can also ask your therapist for ideas on how to bring her in.
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One (shorter, I hope) follow-up: when DD hit 11-12, her drive for independence became all-consuming. So we adapted our parenting style to "give her enough rope to hang herself" -- the starting assumption was always to let her do it her way, but we also kept a close eye, and if the freedom was too much, we swooped in and made her do it our way (over massive fits, of course).
E.g., schoolwork: she wanted to do it in front of the TV and with music on. I thought that was ridiculously stupid. But, ok -- as long as she's keeping the grades up, do it your way. And once the grades started dropping, then she could sit at the table after dinner every night, with no distractions, until she was done, and we'd routinely check Engrade and ask about missing assignments, etc.
Of course, every year, she'd reach a critical point and everything would crater, and we'd swoop in and hover and supervise, and she'd have huge massive fits. But: every year, the crater came later and later, and this year (sophomore), she hardly had one at all.
The larger point is that the most powerful force in your DD's life right now is the need to separate herself from her family and establish her independence and competence at adulting. The more you can recognize that, acknowledge her as a proto-adult, and actively look for (safe) ways to provide almost-adult-level freedom + responsibility, the smoother the rest of your life will be.
FWIW, I would also personally *not* advise the silent treatment -- my job is to help my kid figure out her powerful emotions and learn how to express them appropriately, so I try to model the behavior I want from her. I grew up in a very passive-aggressive environment, where so. many. things. were unspoken and indirect, and conflict/unhappiness were subtly frowned on, and, boy, it just wears you down. So when my own kids started whining about having chocolate chip pancakes *again* on Sunday morning, you'd better believe I let them know that I was getting up extra early to make them a treat, and that if they were not grateful for the treat, then I was perfectly happy to sleep in instead. And I did.
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One of the most effective things my parents ever did... I was probably 11, had a friend over, and when my mom wouldn't let us do something (not sure if we wanted to go someplace late, or use electronics). I said to my friend something like "ugh, she's so stupid." A few hours later, after my friend had gone home, I discovered my mother wasn't speaking to me. Over the next day or two, I discovered I was also effectively grounded, since she wouldn't take me anywhere or allow me to have friends over or use TV or computer (and neither would dad, though he still spoke to me). Probably took me 3 days total of preteen stubbornness to (a) realize that parents have feelings, and are not, in fact, rocks; (b) realize I had hurt my mom's feelings by being rude, and behind her back at that (c) realize all that my mom/parents did for me "above and beyond" the bare minimum and (d) come up with a genuine, tearful apology and reconcile with her.
It was a more adult, natural consequence (if you're a shit to people as an adult, they don't want to associate with you).
I'm glad this worked for you, however the passive-aggressive silent treatment can be very damaging too. Imagine a more sensitive child terrified because the love of her parents was whisked away and now has no idea how to "earn" it back because the parent refuses to look or speak to her. Never mind the fact that a child shouldn't have to "earn" love (children SHOULD have to earn privileges, etc, but respect and love should never be used as leverage. It removes all trust in the parental figure).
Instead, it might have been better for your mom, right after you said she was dumb, to say "Ouch! That was pretty mean and hurt my feelings. I don't think its a good idea to have a friend over if you can't be nice. Friend, I'm going to call your mom now to come pick you up."
And then after friend was gone, to sit down with you to explain kindly what you had done wrong and what was now going to happen because of your behavior (no TV, no rides, no etc) because people who you are mean to don't want to do you favors. THAT would be a natural consequence and how adults would manage their problems. The passive aggressive silent treatment is not how most adults handle issues.
I will add in the fact that a very similar situation happened to me growing up and it backfired terribly. I didn't make my bed when I was around 10, and my grandmother, who was watching us for a weekend, blew up and then refused to even look at me and pretended I didn't exist even though I was now terrified. I made the bed and began following her and pleading and sobbing and falling all over myself apologizing and nothing worked, she was still mad. She made me, a child, responsible for fixing her adult feelings and watched me fold myself into ever more painful contortions and trying to figure out the magic way to make her love me again. The abrupt feeling of having her love ripped away was absolutely terrifying and is the stem of my anxiety issues today, 10+ years later. I was never able to trust that person ever again and my parents did not handle the fallout well, which then translated into the fear of my parents, even though they didnt do it, taking away their love for any little transgression too. And THAT fear, unable to be expressed, began the huge hidden feelings coming out sideways problem.
Every child is different, so OP, I would caution against using passive-aggressive parenting techniques, that's a good way to teach your children to hide their feelings and learn you are not a safe harbor.
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At lot of the above sounds reasonable. We have no kids but were guardians for her nephew for 2 years when he was about this age.
One thing we learned was that sending a kid to his / her room is NOT a punishment if there's a TV, computer video games, phone, etc. in it so when he got too out of hand - and he Never got as bad as your daughter seems to be - we had HIM clear EVERYTHING in the above list, etc from the room, put it in a box / bag and into Our bedroom closet it went.
It never took too long for him to see the error of his ways.
He want from failing 7th grade at his home to passing and then improved his grades to honor roll and eventually went back home and finished high school.
You have to rule the home, not a unruly teen or pre-teen.
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For the last few years, our daughter's attitude has become very difficult. It's becoming steadily worse. She screams at her younger brother several times a day. For example, there was a baby deer on our yard and he said "come look out the window!" She screamed "Stop talking to me! Don't speak to me!" (1) She was looking for an ice pop yesterday and there were none left. I heard her screaming "Those animals ate all the ice pops!" She was referring to my son and his friend who each ate 1 ice pop. She ate the majority of them. 2 She screams at her brother to "shut his little mouth."3 When we discipline her for her behavior, she says things like we don't understand how stressful her life is, that we love her brother more and are taking his side, or she screams "stop yelling at me" (we sometimes yell but not usually)4 or "get out of my room." 5
I have a 12 year girl also. For a contrarian angle:
1 - So? She has a right to not want to interact. Instruct your son to avoid her and not talk to her.
2 - Again, so? If this is an issue, she has her pops, and your son has his. Give them independence to track their own usage.
3 - Um, yeah. It's not best, but siblings talk like that. And don't try banning words, since they'll just use other ones. If animal is the worst word she uses about her brother, that's not too bad
4 - So, you yell. And she yells. And she gets in trouble for yelling at you. Do you get in trouble for yelling at her?
5 - You invaded her space. Her room is sacred and you have to respect that.
Regarding the birthday dinner - so did she clean her room or not? You punished your son for her actions. Misery loves company and you caved. You should have just left her at home and gone. 12 y/o can stay by themselves.
Anyway, it boils down to backing the hell off. Give her space.
If you get her in trouble for minor infractions, your life will be miserable.
And Disney for a 12 year old? Are you not letting her have access to other shows? Blaming this behavior on those Disney shows is absurd. Disney is a bit childish. What do her friends watch?
EDIT: Also, about cleaning rooms: who cares if it's messy. It's her room not yours. Again, back off.
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Not to give you a ton of reading, but along the lines of love and logic, I'd also recommend 'Parent Effectiveness Training' (aka PET). Really great listening and communication skills for all types of relationships, not just parent/child. I've used it at work with great success. And 'How to Talk so Kids Will Listen and Listen so Kids Will Talk." All of these shy away from punishment and work on forming trusting relationships that result in kids that want to behave out of consideration, not compliance.
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Your daughter misbehaves and the consequence is that your son loses his birthday dinner? In such a scenario you might want to instead have one parent stay home with daughter and let her make a peanut butter sandwich while other parent drops off daughter's friend at her house and then takes son and his friend out for a fun meal. Your daughter controlled the whole family with that dinner cancellation; she was allowed to be a bully. Many good books have been suggested, but I think one way to begin is for you to find a counselor who can help you come up with a parenting plan and provide you with support to carry it out.
When my daughter was 13 she got her first phone with texting capabilities. She quickly became less happy because of the steady information feed of girls that age constantly judging each other, forming and reforming groups to the exclusion of some girls, etc. can you identify changes (in addition to hormones) that have happened in her life? Something at school? Does she get one on one time with you and separately with her dad? A professional can help you identify the issues and help you cope with this stressful time. I found consulting a good psychologist very helpful and I took a great parenting class, based on How to Talk so Kids will Listen and Listen so Kids will talk.
My sister and my mom started having a bad relationship when my sister was 13 or 14. My sister would ask my mom to put her hair in curlers (this was a long time ago LOL) and then scream at my mom for doing it wrong. My mother did this night after night. Sadly, decades later my sister still bullies my mother and my mother still allows it to happen. It is great that you are being proactive with this.
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One of the most effective things my parents ever did... I was probably 11, had a friend over, and when my mom wouldn't let us do something (not sure if we wanted to go someplace late, or use electronics). I said to my friend something like "ugh, she's so stupid." A few hours later, after my friend had gone home, I discovered my mother wasn't speaking to me. Over the next day or two, I discovered I was also effectively grounded, since she wouldn't take me anywhere or allow me to have friends over or use TV or computer (and neither would dad, though he still spoke to me). Probably took me 3 days total of preteen stubbornness to (a) realize that parents have feelings, and are not, in fact, rocks; (b) realize I had hurt my mom's feelings by being rude, and behind her back at that (c) realize all that my mom/parents did for me "above and beyond" the bare minimum and (d) come up with a genuine, tearful apology and reconcile with her.
It was a more adult, natural consequence (if you're a shit to people as an adult, they don't want to associate with you).
I'm glad this worked for you, however the passive-aggressive silent treatment can be very damaging too. Imagine a more sensitive child terrified because the love of her parents was whisked away and now has no idea how to "earn" it back because the parent refuses to look or speak to her. Never mind the fact that a child shouldn't have to "earn" love (children SHOULD have to earn privileges, etc, but respect and love should never be used as leverage. It removes all trust in the parental figure).
Instead, it might have been better for your mom, right after you said she was dumb, to say "Ouch! That was pretty mean and hurt my feelings. I don't think its a good idea to have a friend over if you can't be nice. Friend, I'm going to call your mom now to come pick you up."
And then after friend was gone, to sit down with you to explain kindly what you had done wrong and what was now going to happen because of your behavior (no TV, no rides, no etc) because people who you are mean to don't want to do you favors. THAT would be a natural consequence and how adults would manage their problems. The passive aggressive silent treatment is not how most adults handle issues.
I will add in the fact that a very similar situation happened to me growing up and it backfired terribly. I didn't make my bed when I was around 10, and my grandmother, who was watching us for a weekend, blew up and then refused to even look at me and pretended I didn't exist even though I was now terrified. I made the bed and began following her and pleading and sobbing and falling all over myself apologizing and nothing worked, she was still mad. She made me, a child, responsible for fixing her adult feelings and watched me fold myself into ever more painful contortions and trying to figure out the magic way to make her love me again. The abrupt feeling of having her love ripped away was absolutely terrifying and is the stem of my anxiety issues today, 10+ years later. I was never able to trust that person ever again and my parents did not handle the fallout well, which then translated into the fear of my parents, even though they didnt do it, taking away their love for any little transgression too. And THAT fear, unable to be expressed, began the huge hidden feelings coming out sideways problem.
Every child is different, so OP, I would caution against using passive-aggressive parenting techniques, that's a good way to teach your children to hide their feelings and learn you are not a safe harbor.
So, a couple caveats...
1) This was the ONLY time this ever happened (with any of the 3 of us) and in fact the only time my mom gave anyone the silent treatment as far as I know. If you use it regularly, I agree that you can teach passive-aggressive behavior.
2) It didn't really feel aggressive, even passively. She felt...sad. The whole 3 days. :'( It sucks to make your mom sad, like really sad. Even when you're 11.
3) She knew me (/us). Firstly, because she was my (our) parent, and moreover because she was a stay-at-home parent. You have to have a strong pre-existing relationship (not necessary SAH parent).
4) She never withdrew her love, just her interaction. And my dad was there to explain it; he actually told me exactly what I had done and what I had to do to fix it (apologize). I think I came in at day 1.5 with a "fine, I'm SORRY." Which we all know is not actually an apology.
5) I will completely agree it was harsh. Very harsh. It was scary and somewhat hurtful at the time. That's what made it cut deep enough to actually teach me something (rather than allow me to play the victim being oppressed by lack of fun).
6) The fact that all was forgiven once I actually felt bad about it was very important. When I actually came to her with my feelings and hurt and fear and was vulnerable with her, she was there.
7) I definitely wasn't suggesting copying this strategy verbatim; it's how it played out with me, but every kid *is* different. But in general, letting them know you have feelings and they can be hurt when the kid is being a snot might be a better approach than the challenge posed by stoicism. It provides a much better reason to consider the effect of actions/words than "because I said so."
Finally, I'm sorry if I give offense, but the approach you suggest seems appropriate for a 5 year old. An 11 year old or teenager would see through the fakeness of that in a millisecond (I've worked with a lot of teenagers in summer camps). Furthermore, you are reinforcing the child/authority figure dynamic in that situation. And the way I have seen adults deal with people that treat them poorly is not to enforce consequences on them (when an adult tries to hurt another adult back for some perceived or actual slight, we usually call that "drama", or worse) but to eliminate those unhealthy interactions from their life. If they run into that person later, they might say hello and move on. Which is what my mom showed me, to a fairly limited extent, while still living in the same home and still taking care of me (feeding, cleaning, laundry, homework, sleep, etc). The reconciliation is also certainly really important to mitigating any harm done. Finally, I'm sure if she'd mis-estimated my stubbornness and it had dragged on much longer, she would have done something else to reconcile.
Basically, I agree a child should never have to earn your parents love, and I *never did*; but you may have to earn your *good relationship* with anyone, including family and parents, and middle school is plenty old enough to learn that.
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Your daughter misbehaves and the consequence is that your son loses his birthday dinner? In such a scenario you might want to instead have one parent stay home with daughter and let her make a peanut butter sandwich while other parent drops off daughter's friend at her house and then takes son and his friend out for a fun meal. Your daughter control of the whole family with that dinner cancellation; she was allowed to be a bully.
She wasn't a bully, she was a 12 year old girl and her parents dropped the ball and handled it poorly.
The parents need to stop creating artificial battles, and look a lot more inward. Everyone has suggestions about "fixing" the daughter. It shouldn't be assumed that the kid is the problem here.
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I have a 12 year girl also. For a contrarian angle:
1 - So? She has a right to not want to interact. Instruct your son to avoid her and not talk to her.
2 - Again, so? If this is an issue, she has her pops, and your son has his. Give them independence to track their own usage.
3 - Um, yeah. It's not best, but siblings talk like that. And don't try banning words, since they'll just use other ones. If animal is the worst word she uses about her brother, that's not too bad
4 - So, you yell. And she yells. And she gets in trouble for yelling at you. Do you get in trouble for yelling at her?
5 - You invaded her space. Her room is sacred and you have to respect that.
1 - she does not have the right to be disrespectful. "I don't really want to look at a deer in the yard."
2 - this was already covered. She ate most of them. She does not have the right to be disrespectful.
3 - Screaming is not okay. She needs to adjust her method of talking to her brother.
4 - yeah, everyone should stop yelling
5 - my house. Her room is sacred when she pays rent or has her own mortgage. That said, if she needs space to cool down, the correct method of going about that is "mom, please give me some space"
In general, I have found many of the other responses to be great, and I'm following this thread. I will have to check out some of these book recommendations.
My kids are boys, but one is nearing 12. The other is smaller. They both have had emotional outburst issues from time to time, and I've gotten good recommendations from friends, many of whom I think use Love and Logic. So I should just buy the book.
For the younger one, when he would get upset and yell and scream, we would put him in their room. He would NOT want comfort. But I sat there with him, on recommendation from a friend, until he calmed down and came over and sat on my lap. It was a watershed moment for me to not yell at him. It didn't help. I let him know that he's right to be upset, but he has to be respectful. And I sat waiting for him to calm down.
With my older son, that has been the battle off and on for years too. He gets very upset and disappointed when things don't go his way, so it's teaching him regularly, and being CONSISTENT, the requirement to be respectful of us and his little brother.
Definitely need to come back to this thread more and more. I completely lost my shit last night because of always having to be the bad guy in the house. My husband will let him stay up to watch TV until 10 or 11, when the kid wakes up at 5:45 am, regardless of when he falls asleep. AND will let him use electronics all damn day, which makes him cranky.
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Your daughter misbehaves and the consequence is that your son loses his birthday dinner? In such a scenario you might want to instead have one parent stay home with daughter and let her make a peanut butter sandwich while other parent drops off daughter's friend at her house and then takes son and his friend out for a fun meal. Your daughter control of the whole family with that dinner cancellation; she wa allowed to be a bully. Many good books have been suggested, but I think one way to begin is for you to find a counselor who can help you come up with a parenting plan and provide you with support to carry it out.
It was an awkward situation because she had a friend over who we were supposed to be feeding dinner to. I wasn't going to bring her home without giving her dinner. And it potentially would have been uncomfortable for the friend to go out to dinner with us without my daughter. We promised my son and his friend a birthday dinner another night. Under ordinary circumstances, one of us would've gone and one would've stayed home, but the friend in the mix made it awkward. I guess one of us could've gone with the boys and one could've stayed home with daughter/friend, but I didn't really think of it at the time. And I wasn't going to leave her home alone because she was screaming about her horrible life and was packing a bag to go live outside. She may not have been here when we got back.
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The room thing. Our house is a small ranch. Her room is across from the kitchen. She came in from outside and my husband told her she had to clean her room before we went out. She stormed off in a tirade about how it wasn't fair, etc. He went a few steps into her room and was being very calm saying how we had already told her that morning that she had to clean her room that day. That's when she was yelling to get out of her room and for him to stop yelling (he wasn't).
I am all for her needing some space in her room to decompress or be alone. And the room is still a mess. I think she did clean it up somewhat.
She started acting this way when she was about 9. It's getting slowly worse over time. I had initially thought it was a phase. She seemed really well-adjusted before this started. Social, happy, friendly, easy to explain things to if her behavior was off-base. She gets along well with other kids as long as the other kids are really nice. If they're slightly bossy or rude, she can't handle it. She does well with girls who are a few years younger than she is because they're not mean yet. The middle school age girls are calling each other "ugly", "fat", "stupid-ass" for fun. Even if they consider themselves to be your friend. She has a few friends who don't do that and she gets along well with them. I'm fine with that. I don't expect her to be friends with kids who are mean.
But thank you all for the advice. My library has that book in stock and I'm stopping by this afternoon for it.
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I will add that my son LOVES counselling :)
I make sure he's with someone he feels super comfy and happy with.
I tell him he can say anything and everything to the counsellor, including about me and my fuck ups.
It is a totally private, safe space for him, in which he can get everything out.
I know almost zilch about their content.
They have so much fun.
Often I hear him laughing hard :)
His last one just went on mat leave, so we lost her, but I will find him a new one. While I didn't know the content of their meetings, the results were clear.
Counselling -especially with EMDR (regardless of lack of identified trauma)- has always been very beneficial to him. And now that he's older, even with a serious developmental disability he is able to take in new ideas from a third party.
Highly recommend. There are various sources of funding for therapy; you might have one.
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Your daughter misbehaves and the consequence is that your son loses his birthday dinner? In such a scenario you might want to instead have one parent stay home with daughter and let her make a peanut butter sandwich while other parent drops off daughter's friend at her house and then takes son and his friend out for a fun meal. Your daughter control of the whole family with that dinner cancellation; she was allowed to be a bully.
She wasn't a bully, she was a 12 year old girl and her parents dropped the ball and handled it poorly.
The parents need to stop creating artificial battles, and look a lot more inward. Everyone has suggestions about "fixing" the daughter. It shouldn't be assumed that the kid is the problem here.
Are you trolling? I am not sure if you're serious here.
Any yelling of any kind, any disrespectful words or attitude, and I redirect immediately with substantial consequences. The Daughter's behavior was unacceptable in each of the scenarios that OP shared. Sure, OP may have been able to handle these situations differently, but the fact that she's asking for advice shows that she's trying to learn how best to address these outbursts. So, people are offering advice for what has worked for them.
I agree with some of what you said before, that the OP shouldn't have cancelled the dinner. It would have been best if she could've found a way to still enjoy the birthday of her Son rather than letting the Daughter ruin the evening.
Anyway, it boils down to backing the hell off. Give her space.
Uh, what? Not a chance. This is a child who needs to learn boundaries. Giving her space just shows her that her attitude gives her what she wants.
I have a 12 year girl also. For a contrarian angle:
1 - So? She has a right to not want to interact. Instruct your son to avoid her and not talk to her.
2 - Again, so? If this is an issue, she has her pops, and your son has his. Give them independence to track their own usage.
3 - Um, yeah. It's not best, but siblings talk like that. And don't try banning words, since they'll just use other ones. If animal is the worst word she uses about her brother, that's not too bad
4 - So, you yell. And she yells. And she gets in trouble for yelling at you. Do you get in trouble for yelling at her?
5 - You invaded her space. Her room is sacred and you have to respect that.
1 - she does not have the right to be disrespectful. "I don't really want to look at a deer in the yard."
2 - this was already covered. She ate most of them. She does not have the right to be disrespectful.
3 - Screaming is not okay. She needs to adjust her method of talking to her brother.
4 - yeah, everyone should stop yelling
5 - my house. Her room is sacred when she pays rent or has her own mortgage. That said, if she needs space to cool down, the correct method of going about that is "mom, please give me some space"
+100 to these responses by mm1970
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Your daughter misbehaves and the consequence is that your son loses his birthday dinner? In such a scenario you might want to instead have one parent stay home with daughter and let her make a peanut butter sandwich while other parent drops off daughter's friend at her house and then takes son and his friend out for a fun meal. Your daughter control of the whole family with that dinner cancellation; she wa allowed to be a bully. Many good books have been suggested, but I think one way to begin is for you to find a counselor who can help you come up with a parenting plan and provide you with support to carry it out.
It was an awkward situation because she had a friend over who we were supposed to be feeding dinner to. I wasn't going to bring her home without giving her dinner. And it potentially would have been uncomfortable for the friend to go out to dinner with us without my daughter. We promised my son and his friend a birthday dinner another night. Under ordinary circumstances, one of us would've gone and one would've stayed home, but the friend in the mix made it awkward. I guess one of us could've gone with the boys and one could've stayed home with daughter/friend, but I didn't really think of it at the time. And I wasn't going to leave her home alone because she was screaming about her horrible life and was packing a bag to go live outside. She may not have been here when we got back.
I wouldn't have left her alone under those circumstances either.
I have a 12 year girl also. For a contrarian angle:
1 - So? She has a right to not want to interact. Instruct your son to avoid her and not talk to her.
2 - Again, so? If this is an issue, she has her pops, and your son has his. Give them independence to track their own usage.
3 - Um, yeah. It's not best, but siblings talk like that. And don't try banning words, since they'll just use other ones. If animal is the worst word she uses about her brother, that's not too bad
4 - So, you yell. And she yells. And she gets in trouble for yelling at you. Do you get in trouble for yelling at her?
5 - You invaded her space. Her room is sacred and you have to respect that.
Regarding the birthday dinner - so did she clean her room or not? You punished your son for her actions. Misery loves company and you caved. You should have just left her at home and gone. 12 y/o can stay by themselves.
Anyway, it boils down to backing the hell off. Give her space.
If you get her in trouble for minor infractions, your life will be miserable.
And Disney for a 12 year old? Are you not letting her have access to other shows? Blaming this behavior on those Disney shows is absurd. Disney is a bit childish. What do her friends watch?
EDIT: Also, about cleaning rooms: who cares if it's messy. It's her room not yours. Again, back off.
A lot of these suggestions have no consequences for disrespectful and bratty behavior, or in effect rewarding it. No way. Particularly with respect to the little brother. She is being a bully to him and it sends a very wrong message to tell him not to speak to her to avoid her wrath, and it could damage their relationship for years to come.
Also, there is plenty of tween and teenage programing on the Disney channel. I watched some of it in high school, it's certainly ok for a young 12 year old.
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Just running through before school pickup so haven't read all the responses. One question: is she getting enough sleep? Being sleep deprived is not a reason to be a jerk, of course, but it sure helps prevent it. We went through something like that last year when my son was 12. I took away the ipod he was using to watch movies in bed, then eventually took his superbright night light that he was using to read late in bed, and his temper magically improved.
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I am 1000% serious here.
The stuff with her brother is because she is angry. Her lashing out at him is a symptom. There is no way in hell a average tween is going to say things like "I don't really want to look at a deer in the yard." or "mom, please give me some space"
"He went a few steps into her room and was being very calm saying how we had already told her that morning that she had to clean her room that day. " Did he ask if he could go in? And who cares if her room is messy? If she does, she'll clean. This goes back to creating problems. With a kid who is already tough to handle, flash points like this need to be avoided.
The whole family needs to collectively chill out to start repairing the damage. Maybe ask her want she wants? Not in a general sense, but in a specific day to day matter. What would she change? And actually listen and try to accomplish.
What they have been doing obviously isn't working. So, your options are to double-down, or try something different.
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SuperSecretName- you are right that she was not a bully. Thanks for correcting me on that.
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Just running through before school pickup so haven't read all the responses. One question: is she getting enough sleep? Being sleep deprived is not a reason to be a jerk, of course, but it sure helps prevent it. We went through something like that last year when my son was 12. I took away the ipod he was using to watch movies in bed, then eventually took his superbright night light that he was using to read late in bed, and his temper magically improved.
I had this issue as a preteen/teen, but it was not eating. I'm realizing now that I spent most of those years quite hangry. When I would flip out, my mom would make a sandwhich, leave it on the counter and walk away. lol
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She started acting this way when she was about 9. It's getting slowly worse over time. I had initially thought it was a phase. She seemed really well-adjusted before this started. Social, happy, friendly, easy to explain things to if her behavior was off-base. She gets along well with other kids as long as the other kids are really nice. If they're slightly bossy or rude, she can't handle it. She does well with girls who are a few years younger than she is because they're not mean yet. The middle school age girls are calling each other "ugly", "fat", "stupid-ass" for fun. Even if they consider themselves to be your friend. She has a few friends who don't do that and she gets along well with them. I'm fine with that. I don't expect her to be friends with kids who are mean.
Can you find a safe place or neutral ground where you can get her talking again? Going for long walks, or long drives, can be a way to get her to open up. The trick is not to force her to say anything, and not bring other people, but let her have the room to open up to one of her parents without it having any consequence. If she wants to walk, or ride, in silence; that is fine. But according to this experienced foster father I talked to, this was one of his most fire proof tricks for getting in contact with closed off teenagers. My father and I had some of our best talks in the boat fishing during my angry teenage years. The trick is to find a thing to do that is not to action filled, but you still don't have to look at eachother.
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What I'm planning on doing is sending her to her room for every eye roll or hostile tone and telling her she can come back out when she's ready to behave positively. I'd also like to ban Disney Channel shows because the entire premise is that the parents are idiots and the little brothers are annoying. This can't be helping. My husband would never back me on that one though and he's mostly home with them in the afternoons/evenings. I took her iPod yesterday (pretty much acts as a phone as long as she has wifi). I told her she's not getting it back until I see a clear, consistent improvement in her attitude.
First, I am a parent, but my daughter is 5 years old, so... this is more experience from growing up in a dysfunctional household. Also, I am definitely not a perfect parent, so this is simply advice, not judgement.
So here it goes, the quoted paragraph seems like terrible ideas. First, blaming her attitude on Disney channel is nonsense, and indicative of a refusal to look at the real issues that might exist. Are you picking fights with her? Does every eye roll turn into a confrontation? Sometimes you need to pick your battles. "Consistent improvement in attitude" is not something that should be a goal. A goal needs to be clearly defined, easily measured, and attainable. That is very subjective and will lead to conflict over whether or not it has been accomplished.
Trying to force her into band or team sports to improve her attitude is pretty terrible. Especially for someone who is not athletic. You are already giving her the idea that you think she is defective because she is not like the kids in sports/band. Try embracing her interests, not ones you think she should have. Why does she think you favor your son? Ask yourself honestly, do you? Do you go to special events for him while your daughter is just dropped off? I could certainly relate to that as a child(being dropped off or told to ride my bike 4 miles to the event while they go my siblings practice... or worse, stay home and watch TV). How involved are you in her life? What is her school life like right now? This is a tough time for any person, so maybe look into how she behaves at school. If she is the same in school, counseling might be a good idea. If she does well in school, then maybe *you* should take the initiative and ask for both of you to go to counseling so you can learn to be a better parent.
Are there reasons she is acting out? Trouble at school, recent tragedy, recent move, some looming event that is giving her anxiety?
Finally, cancelling your *son's* birthday dinner because his sister was acting out is terrible. Make it up to him. I remember my father screaming "Fuck you" at my siblings on my birthday over some minor incident. I was 7 at the time. I still remember it vividly decades later. That stuff sticks with you. Try not to make bad memories.
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She started acting this way when she was about 9. It's getting slowly worse over time. I had initially thought it was a phase. She seemed really well-adjusted before this started. Social, happy, friendly, easy to explain things to if her behavior was off-base. She gets along well with other kids as long as the other kids are really nice. If they're slightly bossy or rude, she can't handle it. She does well with girls who are a few years younger than she is because they're not mean yet. The middle school age girls are calling each other "ugly", "fat", "stupid-ass" for fun. Even if they consider themselves to be your friend. She has a few friends who don't do that and she gets along well with them. I'm fine with that. I don't expect her to be friends with kids who are mean.
Can you find a safe place or neutral ground where you can get her talking again? Going for long walks, or long drives, can be a way to get her to open up. The trick is not to force her to say anything, and not bring other people, but let her have the room to open up to one of her parents without it having any consequence. If she wants to walk, or ride, in silence; that is fine. But according to this experienced foster father I talked to, this was one of his most fire proof tricks for getting in contact with closed off teenagers. My father and I had some of our best talks in the boat fishing during my angry teenage years. The trick is to find a thing to do that is not to action filled, but you still don't have to look at eachother.
Thank you. I can try taking her for walks.
Someone asked about food and sleep. She sometimes has a little trouble falling asleep. She goes to bed around 9 and gets up at 7 on school days. She sleeps till 8:30-9 on weekends and stays up a little later.
She often doesn't want to eat breakfast but eats well otherwise. She is at the very upper limit of what is considered to be normal weight. A few more pounds would push her into overweight. She has become more self conscious about her body. I'm really trying to give her healthy foods without mentioning weight or size ever. She does highly gravitate towards junk food if it's available. More than most kids from my casual observations. But she likes fruits and veggies. Right now she's having an after school snack of tomatoes and mini rice cakes.
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What I'm planning on doing is sending her to her room for every eye roll or hostile tone and telling her she can come back out when she's ready to behave positively. I'd also like to ban Disney Channel shows because the entire premise is that the parents are idiots and the little brothers are annoying. This can't be helping. My husband would never back me on that one though and he's mostly home with them in the afternoons/evenings. I took her iPod yesterday (pretty much acts as a phone as long as she has wifi). I told her she's not getting it back until I see a clear, consistent improvement in her attitude.
First, I am a parent, but my daughter is 5 years old, so... this is more experience from growing up in a dysfunctional household. Also, I am definitely not a perfect parent, so this is simply advice, not judgement.
So here it goes, the quoted paragraph seems like terrible ideas. First, blaming her attitude on Disney channel is nonsense, and indicative of a refusal to look at the real issues that might exist. Are you picking fights with her? Does every eye roll turn into a confrontation? Sometimes you need to pick your battles. "Consistent improvement in attitude" is not something that should be a goal. A goal needs to be clearly defined, easily measured, and attainable. That is very subjective and will lead to conflict over whether or not it has been accomplished.
Trying to force her into band or team sports to improve her attitude is pretty terrible. Especially for someone who is not athletic. You are already giving her the idea that you think she is defective because she is not like the kids in sports/band. Try embracing her interests, not ones you think she should have. Why does she think you favor your son? Ask yourself honestly, do you? Do you go to special events for him while your daughter is just dropped off? I could certainly relate to that as a child(being dropped off or told to ride my bike 4 miles to the event while they go my siblings practice... or worse, stay home and watch TV). How involved are you in her life? What is her school life like right now? This is a tough time for any person, so maybe look into how she behaves at school. If she is the same in school, counseling might be a good idea. If she does well in school, then maybe *you* should take the initiative and ask for both of you to go to counseling so you can learn to be a better parent.
Are there reasons she is acting out? Trouble at school, recent tragedy, recent move, some looming event that is giving her anxiety?
Finally, cancelling your *son's* birthday dinner because his sister was acting out is terrible. Make it up to him. I remember my father screaming "Fuck you" at my siblings on my birthday over some minor incident. I was 7 at the time. I still remember it vividly decades later. That stuff sticks with you. Try not to make bad memories.
Maybe I didn't explain well. I mentioned that she doesn't like team sports to explain why she isn't in any team sports. She's tried some in the past and didn't like them. We don't sign her up for anything unless she says she wants to do it. We offered the suggestion of 4H because her friend is in it and enjoys it. She wanted to do it. She's in band because her school requires it or a music theory class. She chose band. She does gymnastics during the school year. She's not great at it but she loves it so we make room in the budget for it. She does cheer in the fall. She's going to horseback riding camp this summer, cheer camp, and a week at sleepover camp.
I explained the birthday dinner thing a little further down in the thread.
I think it's pretty equal with how much I participate in both kids activities, field trips, bring room mom, etc. She gets dropped off for more stuff than he does. He has food allergies and asthma, so I can't drop him off at soccer practice. Her gymnastics doesn't allow parents to stay. The Middle School doesn't allow as much parent participation anymore, so I was more involved in that stuff when she was in elementary school. She gets more privileges than he does because she's older (sleepovers, sleepover camp, having an iPod).
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Back from pickup! For us at least, the sleep issue was pretty easy to diagnose in retrospect, because son used to wake himself up around 7, even without an alarm. When he began to stay up late, he began to have to be woken up. Once the device and nightlight went away, he became an early riser again and stopped being so snappish. His grades improved a little too. So, if your daughter is getting enough sleep she should be easy to wake or even wake herself up.
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I'm not a parent, but I still remember being a teenager so this is more a perspective from your daughter's side. At that age I wasn't super rebellious, but I was starting to want more independence, like the freedom to go places with my friends, and my little sister was the most annoying person in the world. In my opinion, punishment and yelling won't work. It will make her resent you more and drive you apart to the point where she will break the rules in secret, and you don't want that. Natural consequences are better (ex. you break your phone, now you don't have a phone until you can buy a new one). Taking away her things until something very intangible happens is not going to work. If you don't want her to yell, you can't also yell at her. Kids are very good at detecting hypocrisy.
I feel like there must be stuff going on in her life that is causing this. You won't find out unless you can build a better relationship with her. Bullying (even the covert kind like exclusion from a group or laughs as she walks by) can be really damaging, especially if she feels like she is larger than her peers. Feeling like you give her brothers more of a pass for bad behaviour, or treat them better, even if it isn't true, the perception may be there. Hormones, lack of sleep, lack of nutrition, mental illness are also all possibilities.
I'd say choose your battles carefully, don't yell, and don't impose arbitrary punishments. Treat her like an adult to the greatest extent possible, gradually of course. Let her have a messy room as long as it's not attracting ants. It's that one space where she can be herself and keep her things the way she wants them. Lay out expectations of behaviour for everyone in the family, and agree on consequences that are equally enforced. It's a difficult time for everyone and the focus should be on maintaining harmony and healthy boundaries for the whole family. Seek out conselling if necessary, but I think that changing the tone of your interactions and taking a good look at your own reaction to her will help. Good luck!
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She started acting this way when she was about 9. It's getting slowly worse over time. I had initially thought it was a phase. She seemed really well-adjusted before this started. Social, happy, friendly, easy to explain things to if her behavior was off-base. She gets along well with other kids as long as the other kids are really nice. If they're slightly bossy or rude, she can't handle it. She does well with girls who are a few years younger than she is because they're not mean yet. The middle school age girls are calling each other "ugly", "fat", "stupid-ass" for fun. Even if they consider themselves to be your friend. She has a few friends who don't do that and she gets along well with them. I'm fine with that. I don't expect her to be friends with kids who are mean.
Honestly, this sounds like a really rough school/friend environment. I would really focus on minimizing the demands at home and giving her more space, both physically and psychologically. Everyone needs some place to decompress, someplace where they feel completely safe and loved. Your daughter is clearly not getting that from her friends or at school, so she needs it to be you. And I do mean "needs."
So please, pick your battles very, very carefully. Choose one or two Most Important Things -- e.g., thou shalt not be evil to thy little brother. Put a stop to those when it happens -- let her know in advance what the consequence is going to be, and then when it happens excute, quickly and without rancor, no negotiation, no engagement, no discussion, just consequence. And let everything else go -- especially her room, she needs a place that is entirely hers to retreat to. Find ways to spend time together, to be with her, present, open if she wants to talk. Do things like go for walks or throw a frisbee or whatever -- just low-stress, low-pressure, get-out-of-the-house-and-move-around fun. Find useful things she can do to demonstrate value, like making you a batch of cookies or something. Actively look for things to compliment her on, let her know when you notice her doing something good. Etc.
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BTW here is the last volume of a great book series, if you haven't heard of it. Some of the attitudes are a bit outdated as these were written in the 70s, but still I found a lot of the information on developmental norms for kids at various ages is spot-on. I'd check the library for this book and read the chapters for ages 11 and 12.
https://www.amazon.com/Your-Ten-Fourteen-Year-Old-Louise-Bates/dp/0440506786
Attached interesting quote from the book:
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I agree. The school environment is horrible. She doesn't want to talk to the guidance counselor by herself or with me. I offered to go with her or to go by myself without her. The best we were able to do was call the principal and ask that he try to arrange her schedule for next year as best as possible to avoid certain kids.
I've talked to another mom whose daughter is very sweet and she has been having a horrible time at school this year too.
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Can you find a safe place or neutral ground where you can get her talking again? Going for long walks, or long drives, can be a way to get her to open up. The trick is not to force her to say anything, and not bring other people, but let her have the room to open up to one of her parents without it having any consequence. If she wants to walk, or ride, in silence; that is fine. But according to this experienced foster father I talked to, this was one of his most fire proof tricks for getting in contact with closed off teenagers. My father and I had some of our best talks in the boat fishing during my angry teenage years. The trick is to find a thing to do that is not to action filled, but you still don't have to look at eachother.
This. I agree with this so much. Try not to talk or press or really even find out what is going on. Just listen. When she figures out what's going on, and she wants to share it with you, she will. Just continue to love her unconditionally. You can hate the behavior, but you still love the daughter. Make sure she knows the difference.
Someone else mentioned diet, sleep, and medical tests. My cousin's step daughter was really unlikeable at about age 9 when we all first met her. To the point that some of us more distant relatives thought she was going to be some kind of serial killer. Honestly. There really seemed to be something wrong with her that we didn't think could be fixed. Gods bless my cousin and her mother because through a lot of love and trial and error and some doctors, they found out she had celiac disease. She was literally being eaten alive by the very food she was eating. The next time we saw her, she was a completely different person, both physically and mentally. So maybe watch for dietary triggers or even try one of those elimination plans for food sensitivity? But I agree with others above. Do not ever mention any physical trait for the next 10 years except to say that you think she is beautiful just the way she is. She won't believe it. Just be consistent and say only that.
ETA: Green Daisy, you're a gem for taking advice. Asking for parenting advice is hard and not all of the responses will fit every situation or every kid. You're doing a great job, and your daughter, although being a little poop at this stage, is no more poopy than other kids. I have never met a kid that doesn't have some sort of attitude problem inside them. That's how they figure things out and how they start figuring out who they are. Keep smiling!
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There have been some great responses here.
This may not be relevant in this case, but with an angry girl or young woman I would, sadly, have half an eye out for possible sexual abuse.
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Lots of good responses. I have no kids but I still remember this age really well. My one cautionary note is to look at your own behavior as well. My parents often brag about what a great job they did raising me and what great parents they were and how awful I was at this age and they did absolutely nothing wrong. They never seem to remember how often and how loudly they screamed at me, among other things I won't go into here. I say this because you mentioned screaming, put yourself in her shoes from a physical standpoint. A grown adult's loud angry voice is a lot scarier than a 12 year old's, even moreso if the grown angry adult is your parent. If you're a man (don't think you are but I didn't read that carefully) this goes double. I distinctly remember being terrified of my parents, particularly my father who had an incredibly loud voice and mean face when he was angry, on a number of occasions. Don't yell. I know that's easy for me to say and I'm not saying she should get away with bad behavior but seriously, don't yell, even when she yells first.
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Lots of good responses. I have no kids but I still remember this age really well. My one cautionary note is to look at your own behavior as well. My parents often brag about what a great job they did raising me and what great parents they were and how awful I was at this age and they did absolutely nothing wrong. They never seem to remember how often and how loudly they screamed at me, among other things I won't go into here. I say this because you mentioned screaming, put yourself in her shoes from a physical standpoint. A grown adult's loud angry voice is a lot scarier than a 12 year old's, even moreso if the grown angry adult is your parent. If you're a man (don't think you are but I didn't read that carefully) this goes double. I distinctly remember being terrified of my parents, particularly my father who had an incredibly loud voice and mean face when he was angry, on a number of occasions. Don't yell. I know that's easy for me to say and I'm not saying she should get away with bad behavior but seriously, don't yell, even when she yells first.
+1000. My DH is like a bear, he has a very big, deep voice, and he gets very, very angry. When she was little and he lost it, DD would snap into line. But you could see in her face that it was out of terror. As I explained to him at the time: you are teaching her how she deserves to be treated by every other man in her life. Is that what you want her to expect from a future boyfriend? So she gets angry and has a fit, and you get angry and yell back. She's 4. What's your excuse?
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I'd recommend you start gathering some information on her behaviors at home and at school. Speak to her teachers and learn about any behaviors that may be occurring at school. How are her grades? Is she involved in any activities or groups at school? How are her interactions in those extra- or co-curricular activities?
I'd track her sleeping habits, eating habits, use of technology, etc. Does she have outbursts in the morning, afternoon, evening? Particular day of the week? Before or after interactions with a friend or friends, an event, etc.
Then - I'd make an appointment with a counselor and your pediatrician and share what you've learned. I'd get their recommendations on next steps - family therapy, group therapy, at-home behavior modification, assessments, etc. There are all sorts of things that could be impacting her behavior - everything from allergies to anxiety - physical to social/emotional. A good counselor and pediatrician will work with you to help rule out or rule in possible causes.
Before and during all of the data gathering, I'd set expectations and consequences and clearly outline them with her.
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I'd recommend you start gathering some information on her behaviors at home and at school. Speak to her teachers and learn about any behaviors that may be occurring at school. [...] I'd track her sleeping habits, eating habits, use of technology, etc. [...] Then - I'd make an appointment with a counselor and your pediatrician and share what you've learned.
Not meaning to have a a go, but if I were a teenager, this would sound like a horrifying invasion of privacy to me.
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I'd recommend you start gathering some information on her behaviors at home and at school. Speak to her teachers and learn about any behaviors that may be occurring at school. [...] I'd track her sleeping habits, eating habits, use of technology, etc. [...] Then - I'd make an appointment with a counselor and your pediatrician and share what you've learned.
Not meaning to have a a go, but if I were a teenager, this would sound like a horrifying invasion of privacy to me.
Appreciate your not meaning to have a go. Horrifying invasion of privacy? I guess that depends on your perspective.
Just offering my advice/experience that saved my son's life.
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I'd recommend you start gathering some information on her behaviors at home and at school. Speak to her teachers and learn about any behaviors that may be occurring at school. [...] I'd track her sleeping habits, eating habits, use of technology, etc. [...] Then - I'd make an appointment with a counselor and your pediatrician and share what you've learned.
Not meaning to have a a go, but if I were a teenager, this would sound like a horrifying invasion of privacy to me.
Appreciate your not meaning to have a go. Horrifying invasion of privacy? I guess that depends on your perspective.
Just offering my advice/experience that saved my son's life.
Thank you. I think I will contact her teachers and ask about her interactions at school. Her grades are so-so. A's in classes where there aren't any tests or homework (gym, art). B's and the occasional C in other classes. She doesn't study much and sometimes doesn't do assignments.
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Lots of good responses. I have no kids but I still remember this age really well. My one cautionary note is to look at your own behavior as well. My parents often brag about what a great job they did raising me and what great parents they were and how awful I was at this age and they did absolutely nothing wrong. They never seem to remember how often and how loudly they screamed at me, among other things I won't go into here. I say this because you mentioned screaming, put yourself in her shoes from a physical standpoint. A grown adult's loud angry voice is a lot scarier than a 12 year old's, even moreso if the grown angry adult is your parent. If you're a man (don't think you are but I didn't read that carefully) this goes double. I distinctly remember being terrified of my parents, particularly my father who had an incredibly loud voice and mean face when he was angry, on a number of occasions. Don't yell. I know that's easy for me to say and I'm not saying she should get away with bad behavior but seriously, don't yell, even when she yells first.
+1000. My DH is like a bear, he has a very big, deep voice, and he gets very, very angry. When she was little and he lost it, DD would snap into line. But you could see in her face that it was out of terror. As I explained to him at the time: you are teaching her how she deserves to be treated by every other man in her life. Is that what you want her to expect from a future boyfriend? So she gets angry and has a fit, and you get angry and yell back. She's 4. What's your excuse?
1000% this. My dad used to yell a lot and now my sister and both automatically feel like crying when someone yells. Not good. Not healthy. I wish my dad had known how to control his anger better. Don't leave that impression on your kids.
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I agree about the yelling. I don't yell frequently. The last time I yelled was February. I had started birth control pills for endometriosis and they made me ragey for a few months.
My husband yells more. And I agree, it's scary when he yells. I can see he's trying to control it. He was very calm yesterday while this was all going on. But the kids have told me that he yells a lot while I'm at work. I can't control him though, so I'm not sure what to do about that. He is open to family counseling so maybe the counselor will get through to him. He is also open to reading the parenting books I got from the library today. He has never read a book in all the years I've known him or been open to any self improvement, so this is a positive step.
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My mother was a screamer. She had a horrible temper. I hated her when I was a preteen/teen. She has mellowed out over time now that I'm an adult, but I still feel tension around her. I've tried very hard not to repeat that. She would call us every horrible name, say how it was a mistake to have us and how she didn't know what she did to have kids as horrible as us. I was a straight A student, excelled at music, active in sports. Very self-motivated. If I won an award at school, she would say how they didn't know what I was really like, otherwise they never would've given me that award. She seemed weirdly jealous of me (I see this looking back, didn't realize it then). Once I turned about 12, she started buying my clothes way too big. I was 105 lbs wearing a size 10. She was a size 10. She would brag "I'm skinnier than you" if she fit in my clothes. She would make fun of me if I got a pimple or made a mistake at something. Things like "Haha, you're not so perfect after all, are you?" She gave massive punishments that weren't proportionate, and seemed to take great joy in it. "You raised your voice at me. You're grounded for 2 months!" She would yell at me at times where I couldn't respond, like waking me up in the middle of the night to scream at me. Once, she called my school and had the secretary pull me out of class so she could tell me over the phone that "you're a mean, nasty, horrible person."
In my case, it only further motivated me to make the most of myself so I could get out of that house. I was set to go away to college over half-way across the country. She came to my room crying that if I left, she wouldn't have anyone to talk to about her problems and she didn't know what to do. She told me that if I went to that college, my parents were not going to help me get there and I was on my own to figure out how to get myself and my stuff across the country with no help. I chickened out of going and stayed home for college, during which time she would tell me how awful I was and how she wished I had gone away to college. In hindsight, I should've told my dad about her threats about college. He would've stepped it. We weren't close at the time though. He worked a lot. All the parenting fell on her.
I ended up marrying young to get out of there.
In positive news, daughter and I are going to do a 5K race together in September. We'll train over the summer and get lots of bonding time! And I found a local counseling group with good reviews in our insurance network. I really want to fix this.
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WTF? You need counselling to probably deal with all that baggage from your childhood. Then maybe get your kid into counselling.
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WTF? You need counselling to probably deal with all that baggage from your childhood. Then maybe get your kid into counselling.
I've been to counseling as an adult. It was very helpful. I went for about 2 years. I'm open to going again. I have to call the center and see what they recommend for us. I assume they'd want to meet with me/husband first, then maybe all of us or just some of us. I'm not planning on dropping my daughter off for them to "fix" her.
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I work in a therapeutic community for at risk youth and worked with many struggling teens/preteens. Lots of great advice here especially from Laura33. I won't repeat their excellent advice. Just a few small pieces of wisdom I've gleaned in my line of work...
It takes a calm brain to calm a brain. you have to be the one with the calm brain to lead your child. When a kid is in their emotional brain they literally cannot hear you. Adults like to try to verbally process with screaming/emotional kids. It won't work. Start with some sort of calming activity. Swing sets, rocking chairs, bouncing a ball, deep breathing are great for calming down. You and she could even decide together on a calming strategy that works for her and even a code word for when you or she thinks a cool down time is needed. After she is calm, then you guys can talk about what happened.
People heal in community and get worse in isolation. The temptation is to send a kid to their room when they are bad. Not saying a cool down time in a room is a bad thing. Just don't banish a kid when they are bad. Instead look for ways to interact positively do more of the relational stuff.
Be curious!Adults like to think we've got all the answers. We say things like that kid is doing _____ they are just defiant/bad/selfish. But all behavior has meaning. Something is going on. Bullying at school/some sort of trauma/body issues/hormones/physical issues/etc. become a detective and find out what thing or things are going on. Make sure she knows you are her biggest advocate.
Someone else mentioned this but I'll repeat it. There's something about side by side activities that gets kids talking. Walk, go for a drive, work on a puzzle. Just something side by side. You're in the same space, doing something together, but they don't have to look at you - then they start to open up.
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with an angry girl or young woman I would, sadly, have half an eye out for possible sexual abuse.
(Boys, too, of course... They are often overlooked as possible survivors.)
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I can't control him though, so I'm not sure what to do about that. He is open to family counseling so maybe the counselor will get through to him. He is also open to reading the parenting books I got from the library today. He has never read a book in all the years I've known him or been open to any self improvement, so this is a positive step.
Green daisy, first, I'm sorry about your childhood. FWIW, your description of your husband is very similar to mine, except that mine was not open to parenting books or counseling (this is the one ultimatum I have given him in 21 years of marriage). What I did was I told him it was counseling *for DD*, and I told DD it was counseling for *us*, so that no one felt like they were the specific target who needed to be "fixed." In reality, it was counseling for all of us to change the family dynamic -- but given DD's age at the time, that really meant counseling for the parents to respond to her differently. And then the counseling gave me the place to say all those things I had learned from the parenting books and have DH hear it from the "expert's" mouth. :-)
But the other thing I had to do was decide to take the lead in parenting. It sucked, because we both had jobs, and I was seriously pissed off at having to manage a grown-ass man in addition to two young kids, because he couldn't grow the fuck up and behave like an adult [not that I'm still annoyed about that or anything]. But my #1 job was keeping them safe -- and I include emotionally in that term. So for a couple of years, I intentionally tried to take the brunt of most of the two-kid duty and sent him off to be helpful doing other things. And I threw the "unified front" idea out the window when he was losing it -- I just calmly told him to stop and took over whatever it was with the kids.
That obviously won't work if your DH is the primary caregiver and you aren't there when that stuff happens. So good luck with the counseling; it sounds like your DH is more open to learning new things than mine was. But keep in mind that if that doesn't help change the dynamic, you might want to consider other options.
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Thank you. I think I will contact her teachers and ask about her interactions at school. Her grades are so-so. A's in classes where there aren't any tests or homework (gym, art). B's and the occasional C in other classes. She doesn't study much and sometimes doesn't do assignments.
You've received a lot of great advice, but I wanted to add something I don't think has been mentioned before.
When I was her age, I stopped trying in school. I'd do what needed to be done (getting few A's, mostly B's & C's), but I didn't care for it. I even failed gym class Freshman year because I just stopped dressing in my gym clothes and participating. I thought it was such a waste of time. I was very detached from school, and even family & friends. Looking back, I believe I wasn't challenged. I could've really used a mentor or role model.
Perhaps she feels the same way. Ask her if she thinks her school work is too easy, too hard, or the right level of difficulty. If she thinks it's too easy, try to challenge her academically. Get her into some accelerated classes, or get her on Khan Academy. Perhaps she could even move up a grade. That would boost her self-confidence a ton too.
Good luck!
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I have a question, and I'm really not trying to be trollish: why is it important to parents that their teenagers (adolescents) have a "clean" room?
I would actually like to know the compelling reasons. I'm not a parent. I did have a lot of conflicts about this when I was an adolescent/early teenager, though. My grandmother tried to explain to me "When you are older you will be embarrassed to have friends over". Which didn't make sense to me, because if I was embarrassed my future 25-year-old self could just clean my apartment (I did not tell her this, because that would have been sass).
Is it morally superior to have a clean room?
Is it because the parents find it aesthetically unpleasant?
Is it because the parents are trying to set life-long habits?
Is it because it is a societal norm for parents to demand this?
I'm curious if, after some analysis, people can come up with really compelling reasons. I never felt my parents had those reasons. They just didn't like the way it looked. I felt it was my room, my safe haven. I admit, I know as an adult that would annoy me if my imaginary kid acted like the house belonged to HER. It just doesn't seem that bad, though . . . versus maintaining shared space and contributing to household.
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@Ann: because the bugs spread to the rest of the house.
That being said; bug free living is the level of cleanliness we demand. General messiness doesn't bother me.
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@Ann
When we demand it, it's because I think that clutter in space equals clutter in mind. Imposing order on the outside should help impose order on the inside. Imposing order is a skill that needs to be reinforced. My husband demands it because... I don't know. I'll venture a guess that he feels better in clean space and it's about him.
Also, kids need to have chores. This seems like a good one to have.
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ann, my kid is allowed a messy (untidy) room to a point. The limits are: no mould, no structural damage, no stench, he can find needed things in a moment, I can reach something without hurting myself, fire escape.
My kid used to literally "toss" things into his room. Once we were missing his lunch kit for a couple of weeks, I didn't worry about it, he used a grocery bag instead... And then the smell developed... And got worse... We started in one corner of the room to work our way around... Found the lunch bag, sealed shut with mold, and the mold having spread across the container it had landed in, the shelf, the wall...
Also, my kid has a diagnosed disability which includes an inability to locate things visually, so having things in "their place" makes all the difference to whether we ever get to leave the house. His ability to find things and to feel calm in his untidy room vs the rest of the (very tidy) house is dramatic.
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I'm surprised that a few people don't prefer a neat and orderly living space. For me, I get super stressed out when the house is in disarray. It just becomes overwhelming.
I think it stems from a few things:
1) Everything should have a place - If you know where something should be, it's easier to find.
2) It shows provides tranquility - Knowing that nothing needs to be done.
3) If you look good, you feel good - Both in personal appearance, and home appearance.
Of course, people are different. So, someone may "feel good" when their home is not neat. It's just a new concept to me.
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Here is some advice that I am very confident of:
1) Do read the "How to talk so your kids will listen and listen so your kids will talk". I would start with the original one, which lays down the basics and teaches the basic skills. I have not read the ones specific to teens, sibling rivalry, etc., but it seems to me that the original one is so solid that there is no need. I read this book in detail, as a textbook, cover to cover, three times, over a period of ~10 years. I needed to learn parenting skills (also had an abusive mother, though not as bad as yours), and this book, as well as some other material on positive parenting (e.g., the word "discipline" has a root in 'teaching', so you should understand yourself as a teacher, not police), helped tremendously. Each time I read the book, some additional skills would stick. It's a process. You can only learn so much at a time.
2) Related: In my experience, punishment works for "regular strength" misbehavior. If you have rapport, it will correct behavior. If you have a good relationship, it will correct attitude. If things are out of control, which they seem to be, it will not be the answer. If you double-down on punishment, your daughter will double-down on rebellion. In my experience (with an impossible, physically violent 4 year old), the less I disciplined, the better he behaved, though it was admittedly hard to get into that virtuous cycle. It seems that with the relationship you have with your daughter now, the best you can hope to achieve with punishment is to have her stop the behavior _while you are around_, and that only if you find something painful enough to punish with. The pain will surely inflict damage, so you have to weigh priorities, such as your sanity and little brother's emotional well-being vs her emotional well-being. That's a no-win.
3) After you described your childhood, I am pretty confident that therein lies part of the problem. Therapy is great to process your trauma, but doesn't teach parenting skills. You may 'know' that something is wrong, but that's completely different from being able to do something different or knowing how. Instead of negative knowledge (this should not be done), you need positive knowledge (that should be done). Study up on parenting skills, best from books, and practice, practice. Good behavior will not feel natural for you.
Now some advice that could apply:
4) It is very possible that your husband is a large part of the problem. If he yells at your daughter too much (which is abuse, btw), she is likely angry at him for that, and at you for allowing that to go on. How to fix that if he is the primary caregiver, I don't know. My daughter was not that angry, and has a more compliant personality, and wasn't particularly angry with me, and an honest talk helped some (I think). I explained that no, dad's behavior is not normal, he has problems with his anger, there is something called 'intermittent explosive disorder' (which I think is just a fancy name for 'aggressive self-centered jerk', but it helps to not make things personal), and that dad needs anger management therapy, which I suggested to him and was laughed off. Daughter was 11, and would be clearly distressed by his out-of-control yelling, and I just figured that she was too old to keep that papered over. She still gets very angry at his outbursts, (even when she is in the wrong, heh), but at least she has an outlet, she can complain to me, and I hope having a pressure-release valve will help in the future. So, no defiant behavior with me. There is very little, but slowly growing, with dad.
5) Without too much sugarcoating... Your abusive childhood sets you up for being abusive. So you need to learn positive parenting skills on your own and purposefully. See 1) and 3). Also, it sets you up for marrying someone abusive - not necessarily because that's what you feel comfortable with, but because you are the person that does not see 'red flags' that other women see. So, you end up with an abuser because other women picked milder-mannered men. Also, women who stand up for themselves are not attractive to such men for long. If this is your story, you're in a pickle. You need to protect daughter from abuse, or at least give appearance that you're trying, if this is to get better. This is not going to work until your parenting is not abusive, and even then, it's going to be hard. So, a long road ahead of you... Part of how to keep sane is to recognize that this is a difficult situation that may not have good outcomes, only more or less bad ones, and your job is to minimize damage. You can't change the past, but you can work on making the future as good as possible given the circumstances.
Again, something I am very confident of: you don't put out fire with gasoline, so you don't put out anger with punishment.
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@Ann: because the bugs spread to the rest of the house.
That being said; bug free living is the level of cleanliness we demand. General messiness doesn't bother me.
messy/clutter does not mean bugs. I think we all can agree that food/dishes shouldn't be left in a room and that bugs are bad.
But a messy room doesn't cause bugs to develop.
Like most parents, mine forced me to clean my room. And now, guess what - it's still a mess. I just don't care. It doesn't make things bad. People just care about different things.
I'm surprised that a few people don't prefer a neat and orderly living space. For me, I get super stressed out when the house is in disarray. It just becomes overwhelming.
I think it stems from a few things:
1) Everything should have a place - If you know where something should be, it's easier to find.
2) It shows provides tranquility - Knowing that nothing needs to be done.
3) If you look good, you feel good - Both in personal appearance, and home appearance.
Of course, people are different. So, someone may "feel good" when their home is not neat. It's just a new concept to me.
Exactly. Maybe you feel that way. Not everyone does. Let kids make their own choices over their own space (not communal spaces) and decide for themselves what they want to do. I'd imagine for some kids, it's actually more stressful to keep a clean room than for it to be dirty. As parents we shouldn't force our likes/dislikes on our kids. That doesn't mean letting them eat ice cream for dinner or leaving dirty underwear on the couch.
The more you let your kids do things for themselves and make their own choices, the more satisfied they will be. Let kids make wrong choices sometimes. My kids (13,11) do their own laundry. A few times they have forgotten to do it and wear old/least dirty clothes. The consequences are theirs alone. They learn that they are responsible for themselves, and have gotten much better at planning when to do laundry. And you know what, sometimes they don't want to do laundry and decide to wear old/ill-fitting clothes. But again, that is their choice, and I'm fine with it. They need to be able to create their own existence.
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I agree. The school environment is horrible. She doesn't want to talk to the guidance counselor by herself or with me. I offered to go with her or to go by myself without her. The best we were able to do was call the principal and ask that he try to arrange her schedule for next year as best as possible to avoid certain kids.
I've talked to another mom whose daughter is very sweet and she has been having a horrible time at school this year too.
Kids this age (boys and girls) can be total shits. And there is very little that you can do about it, in my experience. Schools and teachers are often next to worthless, because they cannot be there every single minute.
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I have a question, and I'm really not trying to be trollish: why is it important to parents that their teenagers (adolescents) have a "clean" room?
I would actually like to know the compelling reasons. I'm not a parent. I did have a lot of conflicts about this when I was an adolescent/early teenager, though. My grandmother tried to explain to me "When you are older you will be embarrassed to have friends over". Which didn't make sense to me, because if I was embarrassed my future 25-year-old self could just clean my apartment (I did not tell her this, because that would have been sass).
Is it morally superior to have a clean room?
Is it because the parents find it aesthetically unpleasant?
Is it because the parents are trying to set life-long habits?
Is it because it is a societal norm for parents to demand this?
I'm curious if, after some analysis, people can come up with really compelling reasons. I never felt my parents had those reasons. They just didn't like the way it looked. I felt it was my room, my safe haven. I admit, I know as an adult that would annoy me if my imaginary kid acted like the house belonged to HER. It just doesn't seem that bad, though . . . versus maintaining shared space and contributing to household.
I believe it teaches a sense of ownership, setting up expectations that you take care of stuff that is yours. That is *your* room, and thus you need to take care of it by keeping it clean, organized, etc... I wouldn't expect perfection, just that it not be a total disaster. It takes 5 minutes a day to keep a room clean.
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Let kids make their own choices over their own space (not communal spaces) and decide for themselves what they want to do.
Another part of it is that when kids are little (11 is little), their room is still somewhat part of the communal space. Friends' parents come in and see what the room is like, etc. It reflects on the whole household. When they are 15, it still reflects on the whole household, but at that age, you need to let it go.
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Let kids make their own choices over their own space (not communal spaces) and decide for themselves what they want to do.
Another part of it is that when kids are little (11 is little), their room is still somewhat part of the communal space. Friends' parents come in and see what the room is like, etc. It reflects on the whole household. When they are 15, it still reflects on the whole household, but at that age, you need to let it go.
I'm not sure you have to let it go entirely. Sometimes the room will need to be cleaned/vacuumed (bugs aside), along with the rest of the house. I own the house, so I expect the rooms to be cleaned on a semi-regular basis. There is no need to demand perfection or daily cleaning, but even special snowflake teenagers are part of the family and, as such, shall not be absolved of this responsibility just because they don't like it.
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I have a question, and I'm really not trying to be trollish: why is it important to parents that their teenagers (adolescents) have a "clean" room?
I would actually like to know the compelling reasons. I'm not a parent. I did have a lot of conflicts about this when I was an adolescent/early teenager, though. My grandmother tried to explain to me "When you are older you will be embarrassed to have friends over". Which didn't make sense to me, because if I was embarrassed my future 25-year-old self could just clean my apartment (I did not tell her this, because that would have been sass).
Is it morally superior to have a clean room?
Is it because the parents find it aesthetically unpleasant?
Is it because the parents are trying to set life-long habits?
Is it because it is a societal norm for parents to demand this?
I'm curious if, after some analysis, people can come up with really compelling reasons. I never felt my parents had those reasons. They just didn't like the way it looked. I felt it was my room, my safe haven. I admit, I know as an adult that would annoy me if my imaginary kid acted like the house belonged to HER. It just doesn't seem that bad, though . . . versus maintaining shared space and contributing to household.
For me, it's that I want her to develop good habits. It doesn't have to be perfect, but I want it to be reasonably clean. And it doesn't have to be clean all the time, but it needs to be cleaned up periodically. What prompted us telling her to clean the room on Sunday was that we have company coming in from out of state this week and she will have guests in her room. I don't want to put them up in a pig sty.
I grew up in a very messy house with lots of animals. We probably were the smelly kids at school. It has taken great effort for me to become an organized adult. My slob tendencies run deep. And I was so embarrassed as a kid to have friends over since the house was so bad. I have often wished that I had more of a natural tendency to be organized and I don't want my kids to struggle so much with that. I'm trying to teach them good habits (along with eating well, money management). I'm not extremely controlling about the clean room.
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This was a really good thread, and really applicable to my life the last few years.
My oldest daughter, now nearly 15, started to act similarly a few months before her first period at age 13. She changed rapidly over the course of a few months from a very quiet and sweet child to a very sullen child who rarely smiled and had what I like to call a persecution complex. Everyone was out to get her. She became a bit of a hypochondriac. She withdrew and spent a lot of time in her room. She became very emotionally volatile. She started snapping at her brother also over any thing that annoyed her. It became very hard to talk to her without getting into some sort of argument over something petty.
She actually requested counseling herself, and we find out that, like her mom, she has dysthymia and anxiety disorder. No big surprise really. (My own struggles with anxiety were contributing to making our interactions disfunctional since my anxiety would feed hers etc... Working on my own anxiety actually helped her out a bit.). The trick is that once your adolescent child knows this about herself, you have to teach them that this doesn't give them an excuse to take it out on other people. IN my case, I had to be a good example of how you can manage these things without making others miserable.
We also found out recently that she is gay, which I think made her feel even more isolated than most teenagers and contributed to her emotional instability.
Things are gradually getting better. I am trying to support her as best as I can. I spend time with her just going grocery shopping and hanging out. I took her to pride parade on Saturday in Boston, which made her happy. I just spend time enjoying her sense of humor.
I guess what I am trying to say is that this is the age when hormones are out of whack, and kids are trying to figure out who they are separate from their parents. I see some of the same feeling I had when my daughter started going through these things. "Who is this person and what happened to my sweet little girl?"
I also sense in your posts that you are looking at more punitive measures, and while that might work for some kids, I would actually try backing off a bit. Don't just accept blatant disrespect, but don't let it drive you over the edge either. If you find yourself getting overly upset, go cool off, and think of an appropriate punishment or consequence, natural ones are better. I also wouldn't force sports either. Let her find what she wants to do and support that. My daughter is into music and art.
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When we demand it, it's because I think that clutter in space equals clutter in mind. Imposing order on the outside should help impose order on the inside.
Umm, you do realize that this is not true for everyone? :-)
My mom was really into order and structure, to the point that it drove her nuts if you left your shoes on the steps to go up or a dish in the sink. I was thereby required to clean my room every Saturday, because that was The Way Things Should Be. What she didn't realize is that I am the other way around: my brain gets itchy when things are too pristine; I need a little clutter to be able to relax and feel at home. AND I have a highly visual memory; to this day, if I file something away, there is a better-than-even chance that it will never be found again -- the "organization" method she insisted on just led to me losing track of things and feeling stupid/incompetent. So my mom's "life lesson" (a) totally did NOT take, because it was so contrary to who I was and what I needed, and (b) just bred resentment that I couldn't have one. stupid. stinking. space. that was just me. I mean, the whole freaking house was hers and had to be maintained to her standards (you want to talk habits and cleaning and organizational skills, you have the entire rest of the house to practice on). But I couldn't have even one little spot that *I* could control as I liked.
So you will not be surprised that this is a battle I intentionally chose not to fight with my kids. I offer help if/when they feel overwhelmed. There is no eating in their rooms (or electronic devices either). But other than that, they get to experience the natural consequences of their choices (e.g., no, I'm not going to buy you new clothes when you can't show me what still fits and what doesn't).
Not to imply that there's anything wrong with asking a kid to pitch in when someone is going to be staying in there with her! Common courtesy 101. But rooms tend to epitomize the kid's need to break away and establish a separate identity from the parents and the family unit -- if you think about it, it's the first space outside her body that she gets to control. When they're 2 and learning that they are a separate creature from mom, they will assert their independence by refusing to eat certain things, or by refusing to pee in the potty, or whatever, because the only thing they control is their own body. By adolescence, they are now defining themselves as separate from the family unit, and so asserting their control over their own personal space is the next logical step. Which is exactly why teens are frequently so touchy and resistant to parental interference -- each attempt to assert control over the room is really a direct attack on her own burgeoning independence.
And of course, from my perspective as mom, it is a sort of ridiculously safe way for DD to assert her independence and separateness. I mean, she could be out drinking or messing around, right? But instead she wants to paint her walls teal and leave the extra mattress on the floor for when her friends come over, and then go hang out there and read a book? Freaking awesome.
Tl;dr: If disorder on the outside really does reflect disorder on the inside, then insisting that she clean the room to your standards tells her that who she is at that point isn't good enough and must be fixed. Fix the cause, not the symptom.
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Seems a stretch to insist on a frugality/badassity forum that absolute control of one's room is necessary for healthy psychological development when many teens and kids manage to grow up just fine without ever having their own room. I didn't; wasn't in the budget. When I complained I was usually reminded that mom shared a bed with granny growing up.
Being able to clean/upkeep your living space to someone else's standard of comfort seems an important skill for college and young adult life with roommates and flatmates. (Though on the flip side, so is being able to put up with a little mess.) You don't want to raise the kid who then *needs* a single/own apartment.
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As a somewhat troubled pre teen I can recommend counseling. I know they gave my parents suggestions to improve to. It felt balanced to me instead of like they were just attacking me.
Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk
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I can't control him though, so I'm not sure what to do about that. He is open to family counseling so maybe the counselor will get through to him. He is also open to reading the parenting books I got from the library today. He has never read a book in all the years I've known him or been open to any self improvement, so this is a positive step.
But the other thing I had to do was decide to take the lead in parenting. It sucked, because we both had jobs, and I was seriously pissed off at having to manage a grown-ass man in addition to two young kids, because he couldn't grow the fuck up and behave like an adult [not that I'm still annoyed about that or anything]. But my #1 job was keeping them safe -- and I include emotionally in that term. So for a couple of years, I intentionally tried to take the brunt of most of the two-kid duty and sent him off to be helpful doing other things. And I threw the "unified front" idea out the window when he was losing it -- I just calmly told him to stop and took over whatever it was with the kids.
That obviously won't work if your DH is the primary caregiver and you aren't there when that stuff happens. So good luck with the counseling; it sounds like your DH is more open to learning new things than mine was. But keep in mind that if that doesn't help change the dynamic, you might want to consider other options.
I work 2-3 days a week and am gone until late evening. He works very early mornings and is home by late morning. So he's here during most waking hours. And with the house being small-ish, it's hard to keep him uninvolved, if that makes sense. But I will try your tactic. I've been to 2 different divorce attorneys who both said he would get 50/50 custody if he wanted it.
I really appreciate all that you (and everyone else) have said and I'm taking it all to heart. The responses are so thorough and helpful.
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Seems a stretch to insist on a frugality/badassity forum that absolute control of one's room is necessary for healthy psychological development when many teens and kids manage to grow up just fine without ever having their own room.
No one said it was necessary. Just as it's not necessary for healthy psychological development to insist that your kid keep her room to some specified parental standard. There's no such thing as a perfect parent or a perfect kid, and what works for one doesn't work for another, and most do just fine.
OTOH, it is entirely natural for kids that age to seek out ways to proclaim their independence. So if you happen to have a kid who chooses to do so through her room, and if it's causing unnecessary friction or your kid is having problems, you might want to consider whether that is a battle you really want to fight.
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You are contemplating divorce? Is it possible that your marital problems have been affecting your daughter more than you realize?
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I can't control him though, so I'm not sure what to do about that. He is open to family counseling so maybe the counselor will get through to him. He is also open to reading the parenting books I got from the library today. He has never read a book in all the years I've known him or been open to any self improvement, so this is a positive step.
But the other thing I had to do was decide to take the lead in parenting. It sucked, because we both had jobs, and I was seriously pissed off at having to manage a grown-ass man in addition to two young kids, because he couldn't grow the fuck up and behave like an adult [not that I'm still annoyed about that or anything]. But my #1 job was keeping them safe -- and I include emotionally in that term. So for a couple of years, I intentionally tried to take the brunt of most of the two-kid duty and sent him off to be helpful doing other things. And I threw the "unified front" idea out the window when he was losing it -- I just calmly told him to stop and took over whatever it was with the kids.
That obviously won't work if your DH is the primary caregiver and you aren't there when that stuff happens. So good luck with the counseling; it sounds like your DH is more open to learning new things than mine was. But keep in mind that if that doesn't help change the dynamic, you might want to consider other options.
I work 2-3 days a week and am gone until late evening. He works very early mornings and is home by late morning. So he's here during most waking hours. And with the house being small-ish, it's hard to keep him uninvolved, if that makes sense. But I will try your tactic. I've been to 2 different divorce attorneys who both said he would get 50/50 custody if he wanted it.
I really appreciate all that you (and everyone else) have said and I'm taking it all to heart. The responses are so thorough and helpful.
I'm kind of in the same boat. I've talked a bit about the explosions with my husband, and it seems like sleep deprivation may be aggravating things (he works nights), which makes sense. So I've been slowly pushing the idea of going to bed after the night shift. I couldn't get commitment at the time, but over time, he spends more of Sundays and Mondays in bed. Not that sleep deprivation excuses abusive behavior, but as Laura33 says, the goal is to keep kids safe, so you focus on minimizing damage. Also, unified front - out the window. ("Why are you not keeping my side!?! You are supposed to support me!! Instead, you are sabotaging me!!!") Also, yes, yes, I am, at times, managing a grownup the way little kids need to be managed, and it's exhausting and it's maddening at times. But it has to be done. Also, very, very careful about consulting lawyers before a divorce... I don't know anyone with kids for whom things turned out the way they hoped they would.
Things will come to the best possible conclusion if you can avoid abusive behavior yourself. You've got plenty of suggestions for parenting books, and I will just throw out "Anger Management for Dummies". That book was life-changing for me. I read it to see if it would help my husband, but instead I realized that I too have an anger problem. The fact that I was controlling my behavior was not enough, I needed ways to dissipate my anger, not keep it under a lid. My life is so much better after learning how to not get angry, and this is why I am now able to close my eyes and breathe deeply and do what needs to be done without losing energy in anger and resentment and feeling that life is not fair (which would all be appropriate, but unhelpful). I'm throwing this out because I think you mentioned that you get angry at your daughter too. It's better when you don't get worked up. I do yell at my kids on occasion, but I do it for show, as feedback that they've done something wrong. It's fast and easy and immediate and time-limited - all good things. But, I'm not angry before, and I'm not worked up after, and I go back to being good, loving mom right after. Not getting angry is key.
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You are contemplating divorce? Is it possible that your marital problems have been effecting affecting your daughter more than you realize?
+1
More reason not to double-down on punishment. Also, more reason to consider counseling.
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You are contemplating divorce? Is it possible that your marital problems have been effecting affecting your daughter more than you realize?
+1
More reason not to double-down on punishment. Also, more reason to consider counseling.
It wasn't recent. Once 2 years ago, once 7 years ago. I contemplate it on and off. I mentioned it because there were a few hints (I think, unless I was misunderstanding) in some responses about divorcing. ETA I looked back. It was regarding his yelling and saying that if it doesn't stop, I should consider other options. Maybe I was misunderstanding.
Marriage counseling was a pretty terrible experience. Anyway, we aren't hostile towards each other and I can't fix a marriage with a person who fundamentally lacks integrity and honesty. This has been a very long term issue.
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You are contemplating divorce? Is it possible that your marital problems have been effecting affecting your daughter more than you realize?
+1
More reason not to double-down on punishment. Also, more reason to consider counseling.
It wasn't recent. Once 2 years ago, once 7 years ago. I contemplate it on and off. I mentioned it because there were a few hints (I think, unless I was misunderstanding) in some responses about divorcing. Marriage counseling was a pretty terrible experience. Anyway, we aren't hostile towards each other and I can't fix a marriage with a person who fundamentally lacks integrity and honesty.
All right... but this is all so much more than what the original post related.
Given all the complex issues... abusive childhood, husband/dad with temper issues, dysfunctional marriage... it's not surprising for your daughter to behave as she does. That could be a perfectly normal, though unfortunate, reaction. Being a complete stranger on the internet, I would recommend: getting your temper/anger under control, positioning yourself as an ally, exposing/naming dad's bad behavior as such (denial is confusing for kids), validating her negative and threatening feelings, and just generally digging deep down to find the loving mother you are and putting yourself on your daughter's side (while protecting brother). This will involve ignoring a lot of disrespectful behavior, hence the need for anger management.
Also, sadly, if things are getting progressively worse, I would think about sexual abuse, even as it's highly unlikely. I wouldn't know how to go about it though. I'm sure there are resources on how to give your child an opportunity to safely talk to someone (counselor?).
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Kids can be jerks. Consider selective ignoring. If you are starting a battle/confrontation every time she huffs or rolls her eyes or has a disrespectful tone, I'll bet there's a lot of arguing going on in your place. In any interaction, the first time she rolls her eyes or speaks with attitude, try not to immediately amp up/escalate the confrontation. Sometimes, ignoring the eye roll and continuing in a pleasant tone can stop it from becoming a big drama. If it continues after that, sure, address it, but often teens don't realise that they are sounding rude/angry. As an adult, it would be horrid if you were publicly chastised every time your tone wasn't perfect. If she does it without realising, then you have a go at her, she could be feeling persecuted (ie why is she always picking on me!). Your kids don't get to yell at you and send you to your room each time you aren't a perfect parent, they should get a little slack too. Yelling at her and cancelling dinner with her friend must have been mortifying for her.
My mom and I clashed horribly doing puberty. She always (still now,
15 years on), had to be right and 'win' the argument/battle. She would shout and sulk and guilt trip until you apologised, regardless of who is at fault. Took me years to stop feeling guilty and immediately apologising any time I interacted with someone (ie you step on my foot, and I apologise). I'm not saying she isn't at fault here, but critically evaluating whether you are unintentionally not helping the situation may be helpful too.
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You are contemplating divorce? Is it possible that your marital problems have been effecting affecting your daughter more than you realize?
+1
More reason not to double-down on punishment. Also, more reason to consider counseling.
It wasn't recent. Once 2 years ago, once 7 years ago. I contemplate it on and off. I mentioned it because there were a few hints (I think, unless I was misunderstanding) in some responses about divorcing. Marriage counseling was a pretty terrible experience. Anyway, we aren't hostile towards each other and I can't fix a marriage with a person who fundamentally lacks integrity and honesty.
All right... but this is all so much more than what the original post related.
Given all the complex issues... abusive childhood, husband/dad with temper issues, dysfunctional marriage... it's not surprising for your daughter to behave as she does. That could be a perfectly normal, though unfortunate, reaction. Being a complete stranger on the internet, I would recommend: getting your temper/anger under control, positioning yourself as an ally, exposing/naming dad's bad behavior as such (denial is confusing for kids), validating her negative and threatening feelings, and just generally digging deep down to find the loving mother you are and putting yourself on your daughter's side (while protecting brother). This will involve ignoring a lot of disrespectful behavior, hence the need for anger management.
Also, sadly, if things are getting progressively worse, I would think about sexual abuse, even as it's highly unlikely. I wouldn't know how to go about it though. I'm sure there are resources on how to give your child an opportunity to safely talk to someone (counselor?).
Holy crap, all of this. Long-term marital issues, underlain by a fundamental lack of respect between the two of you, adds a whole new level to this.
FWIW, my "problem" child has stress antennae like you wouldn't believe. She has always been the canary in the coal mine -- sometimes, when she'd be acting up and I couldn't find an obvious cause, I would realize that *I* was stressed, or DH was stressed, and even though we thought we were acting normally, she sensed the difference. Which circles back to family counseling, and maybe individual counseling for you privately to work through all of the stress you are under trying to hold everything together.
FWIW, I think I was the one who mentioned "other options," and I meant things like "paid daycare." But I have also been sort of where you are: the only time I even considered divorce was when DH was losing it with the kids when DD was about 6 and DS was about 1.5, and I elected to stay and assume the burden for exactly the same reason you mentioned (how would it be better to leave them alone with him half of the time?). I am sorry you are having to deal with this, because there is no simple/easy answer.
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I think counseling is a definite path to consider. I was a horrible teenager, absolutely horrendous....hey look I turned out ok ;) But depending on her personality you need to consider other things, obviously punishment doesn't work (for me it honestly was a quick way to ensure even more anger and resentment were fostered in my relationship with my parents.) It may sounds counter intuitive but (at least for me) I hated anyone telling me what to do, I truley wanted to be in control of my own life, so the more freedom and responsibility I was given the more I flourished. But in order to find out what is making her tick I think you need counseling, an outsider who will listen to her and who she may feel comfortable sharing more with. Wish you he best of luck...teenagers scare me!!
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I haven't read the whole thread, but will chime in a bit to give you hope. My daughter was horrible at that age. Her brother would walk by and she would punch him for no reason that I knew of (not hard, but just being a little shit). Of course, he was being annoying to her when we didn't see it. She was ALWAYS angry. All in all, it worked out and she and her brother are really good friends now, such that when my daughter turned 18, she asked if she could be his guardian if something happened to her dad or I. He was good with that. Even today, he is good with her being trustee over any funds he would inherit if I died in the next couple of years.
The "tween" years are the worst.
My daughter is 22 (still living with me while in school). She gets mad easily and spouts off at me in ways that I wouldn't accept from anyone else. I call her on it if it gets bad, but I have learned that it is her way of dealing with stress. I rarely blow up at her anymore, but I do call her on her behavior and let her know when she is hurting my feelings. As long as I am calm, she calms down much quicker than if it escalates or if I "preach" at her about her behavior. She has gotten much better as she has matured more. She has been my rock in some difficult times.
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Ok. Now I've read the whole thread. I think I have had an epiphany moment that perhaps my daughter is reactive to my stress level. I need to explore this more.
To the OP. If you have a dysfunctional marriage, that can cause a lot of stress in the family and the kids. I fought the idea of divorce for a very long time thinking that it was better to stay together than to divorce (partly from a financial perspective and partly because I didn't want to put my kids through that trauma). I feel like my ex also lacks integrity and honesty. He also feels like his way is the only right way to do anything and that translated to him attempting to be very autocratic (luckily I am pretty stubborn, so he didn't get too far with that). When he was in the house, everyone was way more stressed and tempers flared much more often. I stayed for a long time because I was concerned that he would get 50/50 custody and I felt like I needed to be there to shield my kids from him. When I finally divorced him, my kids became calmer and happier because they were out from under the stress of him and me fighting all the time (whether silently or out loud). They were older (youngest was barely 16) and elected to go with me. As much as I hated to divorce, it was ultimately the best thing for my family.
I would at the very least advise you to get counseling for yourself. I was stretched to the breaking point trying to work, deal with unhappy children and an unhappy marriage. There were times I should have done things differently, but I was so stressed myself that I just couldn't cope with things. Perhaps counseling will give you some tools to deal with your situation so that it isn't so overwhelming.
I wish you all the best.
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I think you've gotten some good advice. I have a couple of teens. One is easy going and always pleasant. The other one is ...not. She's older now, and she has outgrown the worst of the attitude, but for a year she was unbearable.
We tried counseling. She wouldn't participate. We tried older counselors and younger ones and one with therapy dogs. Dd was having none of it. She's in college now, but I still think she'd benefit, but she won't hear about it.
We got the best results from staying calm and not catering to her nasty behavior. Being mean didn't get her what she wanted. It also didn't get a big rise out of us, which is what she often was looking for.
Teens should come with instruction manuals.
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I stayed for a long time because I was concerned that he would get 50/50 custody and I felt like I needed to be there to shield my kids from him.
Yes, it's best to wait until kids are old enough to have their wishes taken into account, and also old enough to be able to process the dynamic and see right from wrong. Labeling behavior correctly is important (this is abuse, this is not, etc.), and so is making sure that you act in a sane manner. And if things improve in the meantime, and you both act in a sane manner, well that's a great outcome.
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One other thought, our rule is that the kids have to participate in a minimum of one activity that has a moderately high demand (meets about at least once weekly). Our schools have a million different offerings. It doesn't have to be sports. We didn't make our kids do any one thing, they got to decide what they wanted to do, but they had to do something. There are musical groups, arts groups, dance, theatre, civic organizations, all kinds of things.
My more challenging daughter resisted a bit, but it turns out music is one of her passions and it helped teach her many different life lessons, as well as being a great, healthy outlet. Being in performing groups taught her about teamwork, and she learned that in order to be successful at some things, you need to work at it. It helped her with time management. It took her mind off some of the petty, mean girl stuff that goes on, and she made some friends who were good for her. I do think that having too much time doing nothing isn't good for kids. My other daughter is a real introvert, but she loves being in musical groups as well.
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What Laura33 said, down to staying because now I can at least intervene and stand up for my daughter, (and it's needed occasionally), instead of leaving her alone with an angry, resentful dad. (And he would be very resentful if I divorced.) Plus, I've caught him badmouthing me to my 4 year old and then he was unapologetic about it. This is now when we have a good relationship. I can only imagine what he would say when I'm not around, _and_ he's pissed at me.
Also, as Laura33 said, kids pick up stress. When my daughter was a toddler, she behaved horribly, and I had to discipline all the time, and nothing was working. Then I was put on antidepressants, and she magically became this well-behaved kid. After a couple of cycles of this, I made the connection.
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As an opposite point, I wish my mom had left earlier (I was 7 when she finally did). I remember the fighting and feeling stressed out very very well. My dad fought her over money, but never bothered going for custody.
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As a teacher and the mother of girls, I'll say this: 12-13 is the pits for girls. It may be different for boys. You'll find that things will really turn around about the time she turns 14. Her mind will mature to the point that she'll understand that cooperation garners more rewards than rebellion, even if she doesn't agree with you.
I agree with much of what's been said, but I'll throw out these thoughts too:
- Consider taking her on a mother-daughter weekend so the two of you can have some fun time together. Make sure it's something that interests her and involve her in the planning. NO friends on this trip. Just the two of you. Similarly, my husband used to take our girls out for dinner ... one at a time. They LOVED having personal time with Dad and looked forward to those evenings immensely.
- You say she's a the top of her weight limit and gravitates towards junk food ... consider the two of you signing up for something like a Yoga class. Something that leans towards adult, something that could become a bonding activity between the two of you -- and it'd be healthy as well.
- About her sleep ... is she leaving her phone on the kitchen counter? All too many teens text one another during the night, and you don't want her to have interrupted sleep.
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Reading this thread, I wanted to solicit more conversation from some of the posters on a related topic, but not derail this important thread, so I started a new one on how people express feelings and how this affects relationships and families. https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/off-topic/peopulewho-yell-and-other-expressions-of-feelings/
Please participate if this interests you!
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You are contemplating divorce? Is it possible that your marital problems have been effecting affecting your daughter more than you realize?
+1
More reason not to double-down on punishment. Also, more reason to consider counseling.
It wasn't recent. Once 2 years ago, once 7 years ago. I contemplate it on and off. I mentioned it because there were a few hints (I think, unless I was misunderstanding) in some responses about divorcing. Marriage counseling was a pretty terrible experience. Anyway, we aren't hostile towards each other and I can't fix a marriage with a person who fundamentally lacks integrity and honesty.
All right... but this is all so much more than what the original post related.
Given all the complex issues... abusive childhood, husband/dad with temper issues, dysfunctional marriage... it's not surprising for your daughter to behave as she does. That could be a perfectly normal, though unfortunate, reaction. Being a complete stranger on the internet, I would recommend: getting your temper/anger under control, positioning yourself as an ally, exposing/naming dad's bad behavior as such (denial is confusing for kids), validating her negative and threatening feelings, and just generally digging deep down to find the loving mother you are and putting yourself on your daughter's side (while protecting brother). This will involve ignoring a lot of disrespectful behavior, hence the need for anger management.
Also, sadly, if things are getting progressively worse, I would think about sexual abuse, even as it's highly unlikely. I wouldn't know how to go about it though. I'm sure there are resources on how to give your child an opportunity to safely talk to someone (counselor?).
Holy crap, all of this. Long-term marital issues, underlain by a fundamental lack of respect between the two of you, adds a whole new level to this.
FWIW, my "problem" child has stress antennae like you wouldn't believe. She has always been the canary in the coal mine -- sometimes, when she'd be acting up and I couldn't find an obvious cause, I would realize that *I* was stressed, or DH was stressed, and even though we thought we were acting normally, she sensed the difference. Which circles back to family counseling, and maybe individual counseling for you privately to work through all of the stress you are under trying to hold everything together.
FWIW, I think I was the one who mentioned "other options," and I meant things like "paid daycare." But I have also been sort of where you are: the only time I even considered divorce was when DH was losing it with the kids when DD was about 6 and DS was about 1.5, and I elected to stay and assume the burden for exactly the same reason you mentioned (how would it be better to leave them alone with him half of the time?). I am sorry you are having to deal with this, because there is no simple/easy answer.
I'm sorry for misunderstanding what you meant. Thank you for clarifying and for all your helpful responses.
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I think counseling is a definite path to consider. I was a horrible teenager, absolutely horrendous....hey look I turned out ok ;) But depending on her personality you need to consider other things, obviously punishment doesn't work (for me it honestly was a quick way to ensure even more anger and resentment were fostered in my relationship with my parents.) It may sounds counter intuitive but (at least for me) I hated anyone telling me what to do, I truley wanted to be in control of my own life, so the more freedom and responsibility I was given the more I flourished. But in order to find out what is making her tick I think you need counseling, an outsider who will listen to her and who she may feel comfortable sharing more with. Wish you he best of luck...teenagers scare me!!
I love this comment. Thank you!!
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Once again, thank you to everyone who responded. I wish we had a like button so I could go through and like your advice. And I also received some amazing and supportive PMs that made my day.
My daughter and I signed up for a 5k, I have some helpful books from the library, and am calling tomorrow to set up counseling.
That said, I'm a bit triggered by some responses that felt victim-shamey regarding my childhood, which is something I've never felt before. I think the comments came with good intentions, but it's best for me to step away from this thread at this point.
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Good luck!
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Yes, your daughter is running your household. When you gave the privileges back, was it because she changed her behavior or because she kept at you to give them back?
Have you tried Love & Logic? This system is over 35 years old & it works. I first learned about it because DS' teachers in grade school used it, so I did a class with the parenting version. There are many books & videos available on the LoveAndLogic.com website.
In a nutshell, L&L allows parents to allow the child to choose from options you pre-approve & utilizes natural consequences for bad behavior. You cannot reason with an angry child; the child earns the right to speak with you only in calm & kind tones. For example, instead of cancelling your son's birthday dinner, you have a baby sitter on standby so your daughter loses the party instead of your son, & she gets charged for the sitter. No friend. No social events until the room gets cleaned according to your list or directions. In some cases, a child who slammed their bedroom door repeatedly came home to find the door removed. You don't have to come up with a consequence on the spot -- in fact it's often more effective to say you'll deal with it later while expecting her to go to her room while you get your positive energy back.
Love & Logic saved my sanity & helped me be a loving, guiding, & patient parent. DS got to the point where all I had to ask was whether he wanted to choose a consequence if he continued what he was doing, & I only said it once -- he knew I'd always follow through. (We had absolutely no problems in his teen years & he's an amazing person at 23 today.)
L&L does advise that if you are still having anger & defiant issues after 3 months of following its program, then professional counseling for the entire family should be considered.
Love and Logic works well, but only if it's followed through with, as with any other behavior management tool.
I use pieces of Love and Logic in my classroom, but the behavior management tool I really like is from a behavior management program called Capturing Kids Hearts. It's called a.social contact. Every one in the household would sit down and agree on words that describe how they want to be treated, how the adult s want to be treated, how kids and adults should treat each other, and how to solve conflict. Write he words down that everyone agrees with, and make sure to talk about what each word means (for example, what Respec t looks like). Once a contract is agreed upon, everyone signs it, and agrees to the consequences of not following it. In my classroom, one redirect is a warning, a second redirect is loss of a hall pass, third is a lunch detention. They know it's a warning because I have the warning phrases posted (what are you doing? What are you supposed to be doing? Are you doing it? What are you going to do about it? ) There's a different set of questions for disrespectful treatment (who are you talking to? How do you talk to me/adult? Are you talking to me respectfully? What are you going to do?) Make sure everyone agrees to the contract and signs it knowing g there will be consequences for repeated breaches.
For major breaches of contract, I will then turn to Love and Logic. Make sure it's a logical consequence for the crime that won't hurt anyone elses day (especially yours!) For example, I never assign kids to work during lunch for not doing their homework because then I'd miss lunch! I stead they get 75% the next day or 90% if it has a parent signature.
Most importantly, follow through! If the kids see that they can get away with things and can treat each other or you disrespectfully without being called out, then it was pointless to do in the first place.
Also, do please call the counselor. Lots of kids and adults see them these days, and there's not nearly as much stigma as there used to be. She does need some strategies to help her cope and direct her anger.
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Also, I see that you mentioned that she is going to a horseback riding camp, As a rider myself and a volunteer for a therapeutic riding center, I can vouch for the healing qualities of being around horses. I'm always amazed at how poised, independent, and confident teenage girls are at the barn. (Might be true for boys, too -- it just tends to be about 95% female at my barns). Horses are incredible empathetic while requiring a great deal of respect -- 1000 lb creature won't put up with disrespect. It also might give her something that is uniquely hers. If she is having friend issues, she could find new friends in a barn or just simply form a new team with just her and the horse.
There has been a lot of good advice so far. I want to echo the parts that she might be picking up on anxiety in the home or harboring fear at her father's anger and feels you are complicit. I know from experience.
It is apparent you have your daughter's best interest at heart. Cheering for you!
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I never assign kids to work during lunch for not doing their homework because then I'd miss lunch! I stead they get 75% the next day or 90% if it has a parent signature.
You obviously know your teaching environment better than I, so this may not apply, but this stick out to me so I wanted to point it out... It seems to me that your policy penalizes students with less involved parents (who would already be at a disadvantage) and gives an advantage to those with more "helicoptery" parents (the ones that would argue with a teacher about a grade or ask for extra credit on their kid's behalf, vs encouraging the kid to negotiate for themselves...through high school).I can see a tougher parent being like "no, I'm not signing your assignment, you can take the full penalty, should have done your work on time!" And another that wouldn't do that no matter how irresponsible their kid had been.
Basically, you're basing 15% of a kid's grade (only on late assignments, but nonetheless...) not on the quality of their work, but on their parents' attitude...
PS I've always appreciated teachers that had a penalty policy for late work vs no late work. I felt like it did a better job conveying that doing the work and learning the material is still a valuable experience, even if it doesn't happen by the deadline.
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That said, I'm a bit triggered by some responses that felt victim-shamey regarding my childhood, which is something I've never felt before. I think the comments came with good intentions, but it's best for me to step away from this thread at this point.
If this is what you were referring to:
5) Without too much sugarcoating... Your abusive childhood sets you up for being abusive. So you need to learn positive parenting skills on your own and purposefully. See 1) and 3). Also, it sets you up for marrying someone abusive - not necessarily because that's what you feel comfortable with, but because you are the person that does not see 'red flags' that other women see. So, you end up with an abuser because other women picked milder-mannered men. Also, women who stand up for themselves are not attractive to such men for long. If this is your story, you're in a pickle. You need to protect daughter from abuse, or at least give appearance that you're trying, if this is to get better. This is not going to work until your parenting is not abusive, and even then, it's going to be hard. So, a long road ahead of you... Part of how to keep sane is to recognize that this is a difficult situation that may not have good outcomes, only more or less bad ones, and your job is to minimize damage. You can't change the past, but you can work on making the future as good as possible given the circumstances.
I have to apologize profusely for not explaining what I meant. I see now that it could easily be taken the wrong way.
I put it in for exactly the opposite reason... I struggled mightily with the questions of "why is this happening to me?", "what did I do to bring this about?", and "what is wrong with me, to end up in a situation like this?" The shame is a common reaction to being abused, and I dealt with that for a long time. Eventually, through studying, I learned of the dynamic of perpetuating the abuse cycle. I realized that it's not my fault at all. It is not my (or your) fault at all, this is just how the universe revolves, this is the default outcome, and this is the expected outcome from an abusive childhood history. This is the norm. We can only hope to improve on it, and if we can, we should pat ourselves on the back. If we can't, we're no worse than the average. This lifted a big heavy weight off my shoulders, as I didn't have to look for any deficiency in myself any more. I was trying to communicate that, and it seems that I failed miserably and achieved the opposite effect.
I apologize again. I should have put more context and more effort into writing that paragraph.
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https://www.amazon.com/How-Talk-Teens-Will-Listen/dp/0060741260
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Also, I see you said she is 12 -- OMG, yes, THE worst age with us. With my own DD, the 6 months before she had her first period were sheer hell, and we can still tell when it's coming on by the pretty dramatic change in volatility. So if this is a recent uptick, it is very likely hormonally-driven. Not that it excuses it -- as I've said to my own DD, yes, it totally sucks and it's not fair, but you are going to have these intense feelings and mood swings for probably 40 years or so, so you need to learn ways to recognize and deal with them. But have a little empathy and treat her like you used to when she was a toddler -- expecting her to be calm and pleasant when she has PMS is like taking a hungry toddler to the mall during nap time. :-) So if/when you can identify a pattern, try to set her up for success during those periods, with lower expectations, fewer plans, some nice calm reading time alone, or family movie time, etc.
I agree with Laura33 that period onset can well play a part in your daughter's anger issues. I put the emphasis on the sentence above because you can't always overcome PMS symptoms out of pure willpower and you'd need external help. I've watched an interesting report about women experiencing extreme PMS and it was truly scary how angry these women were at the height of PMS.
Women tend to suffer period symptoms in silence and that can lead to sexual and fertility problems down the road (late diagnostics for endometriosis for example). So I think it is a good idea to assess that what shes's experiencing on that front is not out of the ordinary.
This is not an excuse for your daughter's behavior but that could at least provide a piece of explanation. Most women are unlucky enough to know how PMS sucks.
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I agree about the yelling. I don't yell frequently. The last time I yelled was February. I had started birth control pills for endometriosis and they made me ragey for a few months.
My husband yells more. And I agree, it's scary when he yells. I can see he's trying to control it. He was very calm yesterday while this was all going on. But the kids have told me that he yells a lot while I'm at work. I can't control him though, so I'm not sure what to do about that. He is open to family counseling so maybe the counselor will get through to him. He is also open to reading the parenting books I got from the library today. He has never read a book in all the years I've known him or been open to any self improvement, so this is a positive step.
Haven't seen the rest of the thread since this, but is there at least a decent chance that your daughter's hormones are making her feel exactly this right now? Except without the years of experience of handling them, and without full frontal lobe development to, you know, help decide to make good choices.
Yay husband reading parenting books/maybe counseling! Those are good things! Yelling will either scare them, or will become ineffective. My mom's yelling no longer bothered me by 14 or 15 because I was used to it. So not a great long term parenting tactic either way.
ETA: Also, around this age I found a few adults that I developed better relationships with. A great aunt in particular, and some cousins in their 20's who were fairly responsible adults. That allowed me to feel more adult-ish, and it was a place for me to talk about how I felt about school, friends, siblings, and parents without judgement. I'm sure, looking back, that what I said made it back to my parents, but it was important for me to get my thoughts out there and also be taken (somewhat) seriously. That I knew best about my friendships, how my parents were annoying, etc. The older people could agree with me, which made me feel better, and also point out a few things like "maybe your mom just gets tired when you guys bicker all day, so that's why she snaps - maybe you could cut back a bit?" or "that friend really doesn't sound like a good friend to me, why are you friends?" that kind of thing. My parents or other close adults could have said the same thing and I wouldn't have listened. These other people were wonderful.
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Another +1 to love and logic.
I'm a high school teacher and my wife taught middle school for 10 years. The best managed classrooms generally have teachers who use it or who basically use the principals, even if they aren't doing it consciously.
the main ideas:
-you always stay calm.
- you only set rules if you plan to enforce them.
- give choices whenever possible, but choices that you will be happy with either way.
- When your expectations are not met, then you will give a consequence. The consequence will depend on the unique situation.
It's kinda like finance and exercise, right? Success is simple, but simple does not mean easy. Staying calm is a really simple thing, but we all know as parents or teachers that it's often very difficult to do.
And Lskistach is right, Capturing Kids Hearts is another very closely related program that is often met with success.
Good luck, you can do this!!!!