How have you resolved marital forks in the road? No compromise possible

[J Boogie]

Team,

We've reached a fork in the road. We have two kids. 5 and 2. I work, she doesn't. Both mid thirties.

I need to make the right decision here and I believe with near perfect confidence she has made some critical errors in assessing the situation. She is equally convinced of the opposite. She has what I think would be understood as a paranoid worldview that can occasionally impact the way we make decisions but not too often and there's usually a way to find something close to a win win. But in this case what I am going to do will leave her extremely upset.

It's the vax. I have to get it to keep my job like nearly everyone else. I'm happy to. I considered risk/benefit and had planned on getting it a while ago and that's when our disagreements began but now they've reached a fever pitch. She believes there could be some potential long term issues w fertility or DNA and I must admit I am embarrassed to share this dispute with anyone I know in real life. Just the fact that I feel ashamed of her is obviously a bad sign for our marriage, and while I try my absolute hardest to discuss this issue respectfully she inevitably walks away feeling as though I am behaving condescendingly towards her (without being able to point to any examples - I simply make her feel this way and am not sure how to behave short of pretending to agree with evidence free claims. A separate issue, but I often feel as though she subconsciously weaponizes her hurt to get me to be more amenable to her point of view and ultimately her favored approach. It feels like emotional blackmail, it feels like she's being excessively controlling about a call that is unambiguously my call to make, and I've called this out in attempt to shut it down but she has persisted albeit with a softer tone).

So I'm in a rough position where doing the obviously right thing for my family, not just medically, but from a providing financial stability perspective, is going to translate to my wife as disregarding her concerns and l leaving her feeling unappreciated, unloved, and vetoed.

Obviously, we'll probably need counseling. Any tips on how to approach this? This is my wife here and I want to stay married. We otherwise have a great relationship with very few issues. But this paranoid/political aspect really blew up over the past 18 months or so and has been driving a wedge between us. I have brought this up that we should try to avoid politics but it has become sort of the main thing she shares and naturally begins to talk about and I'm pretty much never on the same page. We have seen my family a bit less because they're mostly not that politically minded and the ones who are lean in the other direction. And when we do I stress a bit because my wife has shared she feels betrayed when I do not have her back when she has disagreements or dust ups with my family members. She is really polite and considerate and restrained around my family but given her main go-to's for topics these days that she gets fired up about I'd rather visit my family without her to avoid the headache and then potential blowback for failing to chime in on her behalf even if I think she's in the wrong.

Thanks for reading, thanks in advance for any advice. Even if it's just to go to therapy, which yeah, I already know. We'll get it on the calendar.

[Kris]

Yes, counseling for sure. And also, maybe you could read some reputable sources about how to deal with loved ones who have fallen into conspiracy cults/ disinformation rabbit holes. It might help you try to figure out a strategy for communicating.

[dandarc]

Obviously therapy will be necessary if you want to stay married. I would be seriously asking whether I did want to stay married - many things can be worked through, but this would have me questioning whether wife's judgement can be trusted about anything important at all.

But that's gonna take time to set up and work through. In the mean time, just go get the vaccine. Right now - go find a CVS or wherever it is available in your area and get your first shot tonight or tomorrow. You know what she thinks. You know there's no way to convince her. You know what the right thing to do is. So just go do it.

[iluvzbeach]

Wow, this is such a tough one and I am so sorry that you are faced with this challenging situation. There are so many articles I would love to link here about young families where one or both parents have died because of Covid, but I’m sure you’ve seen them or could easily find dozens of them from a quick Google search. As you’ve mentioned, counseling is definitely in order.

My initial thought is that you need to ask yourself what’s most important in this situation. Is it keeping your spouse happy, is it doing everything within your power to remain alive for your children, is it doing what you can to reasonably prevent passing a virus to others who might die from getting it, is it remaining fertile at all costs (even if you die before the child can be born), etc?

If I were a parent, I think my number one obligation would be to my children. If you can’t provide for them because you’ve lost your job or you’ve got a horrible case of long-haul Covid or you’ve died, those all create hardship (potentially lifelong) for your children.

This is one situation where I think you should do what’s best for you, whether that risks pissing off your wife or risks dealing with serious repercussions of a potentially fatal virus.

I do not envy the position you are in. Please keep us posted.

(If I had a vote, I’d vote you get the vaccination. I want you to be around as long as possible - even if just for the benefit of your children - and I don’t even know you.)

[secondcor521]

I simply make her feel this way

I don't think so.  That way lies victimhood, guilt trips, and manipulative behavior.  Her feelings are hers, and she needs to own them.  (As an aside, this is true regardless of sex, gender, or orientation of the people involved in the relationship.)

What alternatives other than not getting vaccinated does she suggest?  If that is the only alternative she has offered, that does sound unreasonable.  Would she consider freezing some of your sperm for later?  Costly, probably, but technically a possible option.

When you don't like all the option you have, find more options.

[J Boogie]

Thanks everyone. To be clear, I'm getting vaccinated and keeping my job. I am crystal clear on what is the right choice morally.

I largely trust my wife's judgment and conscience but have found where this gut feeling, intuition type of decision can have major negative outcomes I have a duty to step in and prevent or reroute it as much as possible with, shall we say, a firm and gentle manner. The distrust of large bureaucratic institutions exists for me as well, but I prefer to assess things from first principles. Definitely not interested in divorce though.

[J Boogie]

What alternatives other than not getting vaccinated does she suggest?  If that is the only alternative she has offered, that does sound unreasonable.  Would she consider freezing some of your sperm for later?  Costly, probably, but technically a possible option.

Well, my employer won't accept our supplement and horse paste receipts as proof of immunity :)

Regarding the frozen sperm, our faith does not permit in vitro.

[MaybeBabyMustache]

Wow, this sounds really tough. It sounds like you are clear on both your own path forward (vaccination, staying healthy for yourself/your family, keeping your job & financial security, & attending to therapy). All of those sound like the right steps.

A few things jump out at me from your post/follow up:
-I get that you want to stay married, & can respect that. I agree with a previous poster that this would really cause some major angst for me, as I would be quite torn between staying married to someone exhibiting this type of judgement, and our overall desire to stay together.
-You reference your wife talking a lot about politics. How is she doing otherwise? Does she have friends, hobbies & other positive things in her life? Becoming overly focused on politics (regardless of your political affinity) isn't super healthy. Does she exercise, and take good care of herself? Can you have a frank conversation (perhaps with the help of a therapist) that you respect her desire to have her own political perspective, but you want family time & discussion to be focused on other things?
-To the point above, I'd be really unimpressed if my spouse wanted to go to my family's home & start up a political debate that no one wanted to have. That would be a pretty big problem for me. And, my spouse is an adult, so I wouldn't swoop in & defend him. I'd instead attempt to diffuse the situation, and then request politely that we don't repeat that. Is your family trying to start up these political debates, & your wife is simply stating her perspective? Or, is the family gathered around talking about Timmy's latest baseball game, or Grandma's excellent cooking, & your wife starts talking politics?

[SimpleCycle]

What alternatives other than not getting vaccinated does she suggest?  If that is the only alternative she has offered, that does sound unreasonable.  Would she consider freezing some of your sperm for later?  Costly, probably, but technically a possible option.

Well, my employer won't accept our supplement and horse paste receipts as proof of immunity :)

Regarding the frozen sperm, our faith does not permit in vitro.

Does it prohibit all assisted reproductive technology?  The most common way to get pregnant with frozen sperm is actually IUI, which is a glorified turkey baster.  If this is the true stumbling block, I might go for it even if I thought it was crazy.

I don't have good thoughts on the rest.  I'm sorry you are facing such a tough situation.

[ixtap]

What alternatives other than not getting vaccinated does she suggest?  If that is the only alternative she has offered, that does sound unreasonable.  Would she consider freezing some of your sperm for later?  Costly, probably, but technically a possible option.

Well, my employer won't accept our supplement and horse paste receipts as proof of immunity :)

Regarding the frozen sperm, our faith does not permit in vitro.

Frozen sperm can be used in utero, if that makes any difference.

[mistymoney]

this is really a tough one, sorry you are going through it.

So yes, definitely to therapy.

the "having her back" when you disagree with her? what would that look like? Would you pretend to share her view? I don't understandd this. That should be a topic for the therapist as well.

Being ashamed of her. that is tough, and I suppose you don't feel like you can be honest about this with her? of course, not using the word ashamed.

But yeah, if divorce is off the table, definitely therapy.

I tried very hard to make my marriage work, but once I had lost respect/felt ashamed of xh, it progress very rapidly to dislike.

Good luck.

[Omy]

I learned early in marriage counseling (first marriage) that nobody makes me feel...anything. I alone *choose* how I feel. It's a great idea to get counseling to learn how to communicate and to stop pushing each other's buttons. And to remove manipulative language from your conversations.

That being said, this particular fork in the road would probably be a deal breaker for me. I've had to distance myself from family members who refuse to get vaccinated - I really feel for you.

If my spouse insisted on making choices that endangered me and my kids, I'd have a tough time sticking around. Since she's worried about fertility and DNA issues, she thinks you are making a choice that will harm any future children you might have and might affect her and your current kids indirectly. How do you "agree to disagree" on something where both partners believe the other's action (or inaction) will harm the family? And where each side thinks the other is misinformed and irrational?

You are going to need one heck of a good counselor to keep this train on the tracks. I wish you all the best.

[cannotWAIT]

I’m sorry this is happening. I think you’re far from alone. Just yesterday my neighbor told me he is contemplating divorce over the same constellation of issues. My partner and I luckily each have our own house but he, although vaccinated, is a much bigger risk taker than I am. My attitude is that I have no interest in policing his behavior but I also have no interest in getting a breakthrough infection, so I am happy to stay apart for as long as he wants so he can enjoy the freedom to hang out indoors and unmasked with other people. (This experience is Reason #4,857 I will never cohabitate with anyone again. Our relationship is strained but basically okay right now. If we lived together we would have broken up.)

I have seen antivaxxers who have adopted the (originally pro-choice!) slogan “my body, my choice.” Does she believe in individual choice? If she believes in it for herself, surely she must see that you are entitled to the same choice. I don’t think you’re going to change her mind on the safety of vaccines but perhaps she is susceptible to ordinary concepts of autonomy and respect?

Regardless, get vaccinated right away. You have nothing to gain and everything to lose by waiting.

[boarder42]

How do you even pick a therapist in this situation. I mean as polarizing as this topic is today I'm sure you can easily find one to support both of your views. How will your wife handle a therapist who is pro vaccine. Probably about as good as you'd handle one anti vax.

[Fru-Gal]

I experienced a battle earlier this year with a smart, curious loved one who had fallen into anti-vax conspiracies. Based on that experience IMHO you cannot underestimate how this disinformation has been effectively weaponized. Ultimately the person was vaxxed. Perhaps what made them switch was the peer pressure of everyone around them doing it, and the realization that these helping professionals (doctors, nurses, etc) mobilized in the nearby large vaccination center were likely not doing anything nefarious. But they still harbor some resentment about how "it was all communicated" and do not admit to falling prey to disinformation. I think it's key that this is not a win-lose between you and her. Because falling into these rabbit holes is deeply emotional and addicting. I know what you mean about the embarrassment as this person is ranting about something.

Getting past this as a family will make you all stronger for it. And then setting up fun alternatives to media consumption and ground rules for family conversations (including the kids) can be good too.

[secondcor521]

The root problem is probably neither the vaccine nor the politics.

It's how to deal with disagreements - discussing, listening, being patient, being respectful, being reasonable, being mature, identifying options, cooperating, believing the best rather than the worst, trusting, compromising where possible.

The lack of respect on both sides is a major danger signal.  Major.  Major.  Huge.

Counseling, either together or apart or both, is probably the best bet.  Since OP mentioned faith, perhaps a pastor or rabbi or other church leader could be an option.  They have a greater likelihood of trying to keep the marriage together, which is not always the case with secular counselors.  This is probably important to OP, and maybe has a better chance of being acceptable to his wife as an option.  It can also be less expensive.

[Fru-Gal]

I mean, anyone who's married, especially with kids, understands that conflict happens. Constantly. Ironically, I disagree that THIS particular topic is about disagreements. It is a weaponized cultural meme with a lot of money being made on perpetuating the conflict.

However, in a matter of months it may be so glaringly obvious what the answer is that the argument will end of its own accord.

Another interesting philosophical question is, to protect his life and that of his young children, should OP get vaccinated in secret? Apparently in many parts of the US where antivax sentiment is the popular view, plenty of patients are vaccinated in secret, with the doctor suggesting no one needs to know.

[iris lily]

I am in a divided household about the vax. I am vaccinated because I consider the Covid illness to be far more threatening to my own  health than the vaccine.My spouse does not agree. I respect him making a decision for his own body, just as I get to make the decision for my own body.

He is a separate person from me, he gets to make separate decisions. And yes, I think his decision is fairly stupid. But he does so many things that earn my respect, this is one issue of many.

OP, I think you have a serious problem if you think THIS is the insurmountable fork in the road. I wouldn't dream of divorcing DH over this, and I dont even have children to raise.  It just isnt that big of a deal. Your REAL problem surrounding the Covid vaccine will come when your children are eligible for vaccine. You may need counseling to work through that one.

[Kris]

I mean, it isn’t that big a deal if you aren’t concerned with your spouse bringing Covid into the house and infecting, hospitalizing, or killing your kids. Or your spouse contracting it herself, and potentially depriving your young children of their mother.

[scantee]

Oof.

You say you’re going to get the vaccine. I suggest doing it, like, tomorrow. Every drugstore chain has appointments and it takes like 30 minutes. The reason I think you should do it immediately is that it forecloses on that that piece of your disagreement and allows you to move on to dealing with the aftermath. After you get it, tell her, and also tell her you’re open to discussing any concerns she has.

You say you are religious so maybe there is someone within your community who you trust who would be willing to work with you as a couple. A therapist that is ‘like’ you is much more likely to be trusted by your wife than an outsider. I suspect though that you may have limited success with therapy. Therapy tends to distill all relationships down to communication — which don’t get me wrong is super important— when there are some differences that can’t be improved through better communication. Sometimes you just have different values and no amount of talking can change that. At that point you need to find a way to maintain respect for each other knowing that you may likely never agree on this issue.

[innkeeper77]

Oh wow. Good luck with this, I don’t have anything productive to add, but has this been happening for longer than just covid? My wife and I talked a while ago and came to the conclusion that if one of us was radically politically opposed (aka voted for trump) the other would have been fully justified and EXPECTED to initiate divorce. Radical differences in opinion politically do not allow for a healthy marriage in a situation where one side is extremely selfish and self centered, while the other wants to help everyone as much as possible and therefore wants to compromise. This doesn’t seem like it would have come out of nowhere.

Not getting the vaccine is another thing we agreed would have been divorce worthy, due to the danger of transmitting to others, our kids, or even dying ourselves leaving the other spouse to fend alone.

It would be different if you DIDNT have kids- but you have to take their health and well-being into account here. They do make disputes messier and more difficult to resolve though.

[SunnyDays]

You call it a “gut feeling intuition type of decision,” but it’s not.  They are beliefs she is encountering on social media, not something she has concluded on her own.  Given that they are medical concerns, you need to counter them with medical knowledge, preferably by experts.  Can you schedule consultations with geneticists and fertility doctors?  It might be expensive, but cheaper than a divorce or ongoing marital strife.  If you present it as “let’s get professional opinions about your concerns because I understand you’re worried” versus “let’s get doctors to prove that you’re wrong” she may go along with it.  If she holds to her beliefs afterwards, then you have some serious thinking to do.  Have your kids received the age appropriate immunizations so far and what will you do if she decides she doesn’t want them to get them in future?  I agree that it would be hard not to distrust her logical reasoning ability and you have to think about what this might mean for your family life going forward.

[charis]

Yowser. I'm very left of center (ie not particularly happy with Biden), but I can't imagine an expectation that I would initiate divorce based on who my spouse voted for.  That's an extreme and irrational stance (in my own personal opinion).

OP, it appears that given your wife's need to confront people with her political conspiracy theories, there is something else afoot. Anxiety, depression? Mixed with religious convictions. Couples therapy seems like great first step because you both need help dealing with this conflict more than you can hope to change her mind (although hopefully her mind can be changed).

Even if you divorce, I don't see a family court forcing her to get vaccinated, so if your primary motivation is to protect the kids from covid, that ain't it. Plus they may be eligible for the vaccine before anything could be accomplished legally.  You can get your kids vaccinated when they are eligible. I think an ongoing pandemic is an unwise time to make life changing decisions for your family, as has been suggested here, but I fully understand your concerns.

[former player]

I'm sorry for this situation.

I think being a stay at home mom with two small children is a hard row to hoe.  I hope your wife has regular social contact with other adults other than you, and preferably for some of that time doesn't have the kids with her.  As you both seem to have a strong religious faith that should be a good community to build outwards from with personal connections.

One thing that I don't think has been suggested yet is both of you agreeing to delete some or all of your social media, or at least to curate them to remove the news feeds and any "friends" who aren't also friends in real life.  This might be something to discuss with the therapist though, it certainly isn't something you can impose - and it would probably work better with an expanded off-line life to replace the on-line stuff.

On the issue of respect, I hope it is possible for you to think "I don't respect anti-vax views but our human nature makes us vulnerable to the advertising and media industries, and the informational rabbit hole on this has taken in many tens of millions of other people in the same way."

Are you planning to have more children?  This is obviously a very bad time for your wife to get pregnant, not least because of the high risk of covid to unvaccinated pregnant women.  It would be very reasonable for you to say that you aren't prepared to risk your current children losing their mother to an unvaccinated pregnancy while the pandemic is in progress.

[Metalcat]

How do you even pick a therapist in this situation. I mean as polarizing as this topic is today I'm sure you can easily find one to support both of your views. How will your wife handle a therapist who is pro vaccine. Probably about as good as you'd handle one anti vax.

The therapist's personal views on vaccines won't matter if the therapist is even halfway competent. This isn't an issue, a properly trained, ethical therapist is equipped to deal with literally any conflict from a non judgemental position. Being non judgemental is the cornerstone of therapy. That said, being non judgemental is also the hardest part of the job, and a lot of therapists fail. I think it's especially hard for the faith-based therapists, because so much judgement is built in to a lot of sects of various religions.

It still stands though, that a properly trained therapist should be able to provide marital counselling without taking sides, period.

Now to OP:

As other have pointed out, your issue isn't the vaccine, the vaccine is simply the conflict that is revealing the underlying fractures in your marriage. Your marriage was always vulnerable to this form of conflict, and covid has revealed how deep the conflict goes.

Try to conceptualize the vaccine as the thing that's revealing the problem, and not the problem in and of itself. From there, put your energy towards trying to understand what the problem actually is.

You talk about feeling embarrassed by her. Why? What exactly about her behaviour is making you embarrassed. Ignore the subject matter, and focus on what it is about her that is driving her to behave in a way that you can't respect. What about her made her capable of behaving in a way that embarrasses you?

You feel emotionally manipulated. Has she always reacted this way in conflict? Have you ever felt like you can trust her with your vulnerability in a conflict? What would you need in order to feel safe when in conflict with her? What do you think drives her behaviour? What does she need to feel safe in a conflict?

How invested is she in resolving this?  From the sounds of it, there are some significant emotional maladaptations going on here. Is she willing to seek individual counselling as well as marriage counselling? Because marriage counselling can only address a conflict between you, it is useless for addressing internal issues that she or you might have. So if there are underlying individual problems driving conflict issues, then those need to be addressed in parallel with the marriage counselling.

In fact, if I get *any* sense that the individuals need work, I recommend solo therapy *before* couples counselling.

Again, I repeat, try not to let the content of the conflict distract you. You're focused on it because you have a timeline to get the vaccine. Well, at the end of the day, that's not the issue. Get the vaccine if you need to, her feelings will be hurt, and you will add that to the shit that you need to deal with in therapy.

It's only in your head that you think this isn't solvable. But what you are actually seeing is that this isn't solvable without more conflict. You can't avoid this getting worse. If you just accept that simple fact, then what to do about the vaccine is quite simple. Remember, the vaccine isn't the issue, the structural marital problem beneath it is. The vaccine is just revealing how warped the underlying structure is.

So don't worry too much about the vaccine. It's your body, it's your career, there's no question that you should get it. The fact that doing so is going to cause a massive blow up isn't necessarily a bad thing. It's unpleasant, but it isn't necessarily bad.

You can't find a peaceful way to resolve this because there is no peaceful way to resolve it. The dysfunction won't allow it. And the dysfunction isn't going to be magically healed in time for you to get your vaccine. So worsening conflict is the only natural outcome. The sooner you accept that, the sooner you can move forward with figuring out how you want to handle it.

[FLBiker]

I don't know if this would help, but what about doing a social media fast as a family?  That way, it doesn't need to be about her, or about a particular issue.  You can frame it around "having grown apart" or "being more distracted" or whatever, and then do some amount of time with no social media.

I could be way off base, but I tend to blame social media with stuff like this.  I'm no expert (I have a LinkedIn I never check and that's it) but in my life, the folks who have these types of aggressive non-evidence based opinions tend get their "information" from social media.

[SaucyAussie]

Your whole post sounds very condescending toward your wife.  I'm not surprised she picks up on it.

You need to learn to respect her opinions and feelings, no matter how wrong you think she is.  You will face far greater challenges than this in your marriage.

[Rosy]

Oh my goodness. I feel for you both.
Her, because I know how easy it is to get drawn into conspiracy theories with the media whipping up the masses into a frenzy of fear especially if you are at home and listen to those rantings on TV or FB over and over again. It becomes reality in your mind unless you can distance yourself and rationalize with a clear head before you become a mindless follower.
Critical thinking and a healthy dose of skepticism is not inherent in all of us or we may be in a vulnerable frame of mind and therefore more susceptible to influence. 

It is hard to stay immune (no pun intended) to highly sophisticated, highly paid, professional fear-mongers who will not hesitate to lie and provide false evidence. When you think about it they are a little like the false prophets the Bible talks about. There is a reason the most 'successful' social media personalities are called "influencers".

I don't know how therapy would help, but deep entrenchment on both sides suggests a line in the sand, other, potentially deeper issues that were never addressed and have grown out of proportion, poor communication, not a good sign.

I am sad for you to find yourself in this ridiculous practically government-sanctioned fight. Remain calm and rational this will eventually blow over. I have heard of websites and organizations dedicated to solving dilemmas like yours, started by people who once were committed believers to help others see the deception. You both need support and help to communicate and move forward. 

You are not the only one dealing with this politically driven divide forcing familial divides across the nation. It is highly disturbing to see friends and family stop talking and distance themselves from one another. 
The problem is this causes death and fatherless or motherless children.

PS - glad to see Malcat's questions that bypass the obvious but misleading conflict at hand and point to deeper contentious issues that need to be acknowledged and discussed. You said you were not interested in divorce, well in that case, find the courage to talk openly about everything with each other. A professional where your wife can talk without feeling challenged - just being listened to and her fears allayed and acknowledged for what they are - the need and urge to protect herself and her unborn children. A place where both your current perspectives can be voiced and analyzed, not judged or disrespected or swept aside - that would be a good start.

[Hibernaculum]

That's tough, for sure. For the long term, you do need to be trying to uncover what is driving your disagreements. But for the near term, I think there are a couple of things that might help you to deal with these issues with less acrimony.

1- Go on an information diet. Try not to dwell on covid. Try not to be outraged.

2- Harmonize your information sources. Where is her information coming from? Where is your information coming from? Try to limit is (see #1), and then try to incorporate the information sources of the other into your "diet." Discuss.

3- Be critical information consumers. I think that to be anti-vax, you have to be willing to discount multiple media sources saying, "get the vaccine." But, can your wife devote the same degree of skepticism to her alternative media sources? Praise her skepticism, and encourage her to use it for ALL her information sources.

4- Don't use or consume inflammatory language. I mean, we've seen it in responses so far to this thread, too... the sort of "this is life and death, if she doesn't get the vaccine she's gonna DIE and leave the kids motherless." Well, yes, it CAN be a life and death decision, and it is an important decision... but try to look at the numbers together. Try to find common ground. In your age group, covid is NOT the leading cause of death, whether vaccinated or un-vaccinated. Same for your kids. See if you can find sources for the numbers that you can both agree on.

And, this is slightly in contravention to #1, but maybe it could be worth it to take a deep dive into the vaccines themselves- how they were developed, how they differ, how they were funded. This could just lead you to the areas where she might things are being covered up, but on the other hand, maybe it could be that she'd come to the conclusion that she wouldn't accept the Pfizer vaccine but maybe the Moderna would be OK? Or vice versa. Just a thought...

[J Boogie]

Your whole post sounds very condescending toward your wife.  I'm not surprised she picks up on it.

You need to learn to respect her opinions and feelings, no matter how wrong you think she is.  You will face far greater challenges than this in your marriage.

I guess I'll ask you the same question I ask her. What can you point to that shows condescension and what is a better approach?

I am genuinely feeling as though my wife's exhortation for us to "work together" when facing big issues is simply a subconscious euphemism for us to take the path she feels is best. Because no matter how respectful, patient, and willing to listen I am the moment I will gently question the premise or present my views I will, sooner or later, get a comment like "well I guess you've made up your mind" or "you always talk like your understanding is the only understanding."

So I walk away from the conversation feeling as though the only thing that would make her feel heard and respected is more or less agreement. Perhaps you can share some techniques to disagree firmly and respectfully.

[ChpBstrd]

Ugh, what a situation. If it was parents or friends you could just get the vaccine and not talk about it, but hiding things from a spouse is tricky.

The Facts
First things first. There is precisely ZERO evidence of people becoming infertile due to any of the COVID, flu, MMR, DTAP, polio, etc. vaccines we take all the time. There is LOTS of evidence that people who get COVID can have long-term health issues, including possibly permanent heart/lung/kidney/brain damage, etc. You are factually correct in wanting to get vaccinated. There are a lot of people getting medical advice from rap stars, politicians(!), clickbait, and YouTubers who get paid per ad view and that's the root cause why thousands of people are dying per day and hundreds of thousands are getting infected. Get your info from doctors and scientists, not entertainers. The CDC has info about fertility in particular: https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/planning-for-pregnancy.html

The Standoff
That said, it sounds like you've each become defensively dug in on the issue. Your wife can't look at the legitimate evidence and say "oh, guess I was incorrect" without fear of losing respect and status in the relationship. Maybe if she admitted being wrong, that would tilt the relationship in the direction of you being the decision maker? Would you hold this decision over her as an example of a time she was wrong in the past? Are you a power-sensitive couple with domineering habits?

You may be able to bargain by trading another decision for this one. E.g. DW wants a newer car but you think the old one is fine, so trade the car decision for the vaccination decision. That way you each retain your decision-making power status, and you've set an example of diplomatic negotiation that could be used down the road. 

Boundaries
My last thought is boundaries. To what extent does one member of a relationship get to make medical decisions for the other? What if the decision could mean hospitalization, long-term disability, or death? One way to split the difference would be to say "we'll each make our own medical decisions regarding the vaccine for our own bodies, and that way we don't have to fight about what each other does." But this is unlikely to be satisfactory, because if you each think the other has taken a deadly risk then you'll each think the other lacks commitment to this family project. Yet that might be the best you can do. At some point, you have to take care of yourself regardless of what your spouse is doing. When COVID eventually runs through your house, as it will, having one person still standing could make the difference.

Everyone Off The Fucking Internet!
If you're serious about the relationship, you'll be in counseling by next week. It's a cheap, effective, and relatively easy way to avoid familial destruction. Get expert assistance with resolving the problem. Don't just take the word of a bunch of random people on the internet. That would be as bad as getting medical advice from TikTok ("eat mentos and then quickly drink a Dr. Pepper to cure COVID!" etc). See if you can pull each other off the internet and into real life - that's where your connection is. A lower-information diet might save one of your lives.

[charis]

Your whole post sounds very condescending toward your wife.  I'm not surprised she picks up on it.

You need to learn to respect her opinions and feelings, no matter how wrong you think she is.  You will face far greater challenges than this in your marriage.

I guess I'll ask you the same question I ask her. What can you point to that shows condescension and what is a better approach?

I am genuinely feeling as though my wife's exhortation for us to "work together" when facing big issues is simply a subconscious euphemism for us to take the path she feels is best. Because no matter how respectful, patient, and willing to listen I am the moment I will gently question the premise or present my views I will, sooner or later, get a comment like "well I guess you've made up your mind" or "you always talk like your understanding is the only understanding."

So I walk away from the conversation feeling as though the only thing that would make her feel heard and respected is more or less agreement. Perhaps you can share some techniques to disagree firmly and respectfully.

It sounds like you have made up your mind.  If she is making you uncomfortable around your family, it's fair to say "no political talk, please, or I will be cutting the visit short because that's not pleasant for me."  You can disagree without trying to convince her that her position is incorrect.

It's not helpful to continue talking about the vaccine. Get it and make an appointment with a therapist.

[J Boogie]

How do you even pick a therapist in this situation. I mean as polarizing as this topic is today I'm sure you can easily find one to support both of your views. How will your wife handle a therapist who is pro vaccine. Probably about as good as you'd handle one anti vax.

The therapist's personal views on vaccines won't matter if the therapist is even halfway competent. This isn't an issue, a properly trained, ethical therapist is equipped to deal with literally any conflict from a non judgemental position. Being non judgemental is the cornerstone of therapy. That said, being non judgemental is also the hardest part of the job, and a lot of therapists fail. I think it's especially hard for the faith-based therapists, because so much judgement is built in to a lot of sects of various religions.

It still stands though, that a properly trained therapist should be able to provide marital counselling without taking sides, period.

Now to OP:

As other have pointed out, your issue isn't the vaccine, the vaccine is simply the conflict that is revealing the underlying fractures in your marriage. Your marriage was always vulnerable to this form of conflict, and covid has revealed how deep the conflict goes.

Try to conceptualize the vaccine as the thing that's revealing the problem, and not the problem in and of itself. From there, put your energy towards trying to understand what the problem actually is.

You talk about feeling embarrassed by her. Why? What exactly about her behaviour is making you embarrassed. Ignore the subject matter, and focus on what it is about her that is driving her to behave in a way that you can't respect. What about her made her capable of behaving in a way that embarrasses you?

You feel emotionally manipulated. Has she always reacted this way in conflict? Have you ever felt like you can trust her with your vulnerability in a conflict? What would you need in order to feel safe when in conflict with her? What do you think drives her behaviour? What does she need to feel safe in a conflict?

How invested is she in resolving this?  From the sounds of it, there are some significant emotional maladaptations going on here. Is she willing to seek individual counselling as well as marriage counselling? Because marriage counselling can only address a conflict between you, it is useless for addressing internal issues that she or you might have. So if there are underlying individual problems driving conflict issues, then those need to be addressed in parallel with the marriage counselling.

In fact, if I get *any* sense that the individuals need work, I recommend solo therapy *before* couples counselling.

Again, I repeat, try not to let the content of the conflict distract you. You're focused on it because you have a timeline to get the vaccine. Well, at the end of the day, that's not the issue. Get the vaccine if you need to, her feelings will be hurt, and you will add that to the shit that you need to deal with in therapy.

It's only in your head that you think this isn't solvable. But what you are actually seeing is that this isn't solvable without more conflict. You can't avoid this getting worse. If you just accept that simple fact, then what to do about the vaccine is quite simple. Remember, the vaccine isn't the issue, the structural marital problem beneath it is. The vaccine is just revealing how warped the underlying structure is.

So don't worry too much about the vaccine. It's your body, it's your career, there's no question that you should get it. The fact that doing so is going to cause a massive blow up isn't necessarily a bad thing. It's unpleasant, but it isn't necessarily bad.

You can't find a peaceful way to resolve this because there is no peaceful way to resolve it. The dysfunction won't allow it. And the dysfunction isn't going to be magically healed in time for you to get your vaccine. So worsening conflict is the only natural outcome. The sooner you accept that, the sooner you can move forward with figuring out how you want to handle it.

Wow, thanks for a solid chunk of good advice here. I guess I'll share more detail here to keep things easy.

I agree that the vaccine is simply the thing that is revealing we have different ways of arriving at truth when it comes to making big decisions. We just simply didn't have any big decisions before. A few years ago she insisted that I keep the modem/router out of the bedroom, even though it meant a little bit of rewiring. Fine by me, I don't think wifi is harmful but there's no cost to moving a router.

However many of these things have been popping up lately. She wanted to get a no trespassing sign when Biden announced people might canvas neighborhoods about vaccination. Eh, not my favorite look or vibe of neighborliness but not the hill I'll die on. Still, if there's something I'm not comfortable with I will mention how I feel about it even if I compromise. Recently she has been talking about moving to a state like Texas, Florida, or some other red state to be proactive about escaping the tyranny she feels is on the horizon. Some here know we live in MN. We have an amazing parish we live very close to and have a great little Catholic community we are very involved in. Plus my family is here. But recently her IL based brother got pressure to get vaxxed by his employer and recently got a job in TX and will be moving soon. So she has some feelings of wishing that were her family. She has other family members she is close to that have the same views and ones that are even more intense.

About her family. She's not a citizen yet. She was born in Nicaragua during the socialist Sandinista era and her parents fled to Miami soon after. There is an unhealthy level of distrust and fixation when it comes to the govt, specifically democrats. There are very few actual socialists for US latin american political refugees to fixate around, so the democrats receive this as they're the next best thing. There is a sort of PTSD where many things are interpreted as signs of tyranny and dismissing these concerns is viewed as denying the validity of her parents' experience and the things they've gone through giving them a unique insight where I might not pick up on clues.

She has gone to therapy before, but it was mostly for her to overcome the trauma surrounding her C section to give her the courage to attempt a vaginal birth for her second. There was some talk of family issues, as she has occasionally fought with family members, and she mentioned therapy helped her grow in being able to better control her anger. I've never done personal therapy and my honest view is that I'm not in need of it - the obvious problem here is that she is, understandably, not a fan of being the one in the relationship that needs to change. I'm not sure what issues I would personally work on - for a while I would bottle things up and not bring them up until we had an argument, but these days I'm better bringing things up as they come. But I would be happy to attend couples therapy to develop some better communication habits which is a joint problem.

Do I feel I can trust her with my vulnerability during a conflict? I guess the answer is no. To do so I would need us to have quite a few arguments in a row where she did not bring up past events. I would need to see more restraint during arguments where things we generally agree are not helpful to bring up and not brought up. She will tend to lash out if she feels hurt and I will not usually be too affected as the insults or hurtful comments she makes rarely ring very true and are fairly easy to understand simply as lashing out. But it does make me very hesitant to offer any vulnerability. This is enlightening. Thanks again.

Regarding what embarrasses me, I guess part of the reason I married her is because I believed her to be intelligent, considerate, and reasonable. And she is. Perhaps her us vs them worldview is what made her capable of accepting the validity of these fertility whataboutisms to occupy a mental space that should be reserved for evidence-based concerns. Cnce we get deep enough into the discussion there are signs a paranoid worldview is behind this as well - well encapsulated by the idea that this vaccine and its corresponding passports *might* be the mark of the beast mentioned in the book of revelation.

We are Catholics, and one of the benefits of our oppressive, centralized Church is that we don't leave willy nilly scripture interpretation up to the unwashed masses. HOWEVER. There is an embarrassingly strong strain of right wing Catholic populism active right now, with figures like Vigano and Altman leading the charge in decrying the corruption in the Vatican and insisting the true path for the faithful is more or less the inverse of whatever secular authorities are promoting. Catholic moral theology as enshrined by Thomas Aquinas and Alphonsus Ligouri supports the common good practice of getting vaccines, and the Church put out authoritative documents saying even though some of the cell lines used to test the vaccines came from elective abortions that Catholics should (but are not morally obligated to) get vaccinated. But many influential Catholics view abortion as bigger than our tradition of moral theology and there should be no cooperation with it at all.

Sorry to get into the weeds.

Regarding her willingness to resolve this, she is willing to go 1000% into masking and scrimping and supplementing and distancing if it means I don't get vaccinated. But she has mentioned multiple times she doesn't see a way forward for us if I get it and has mentioned separation a few times in the heat of the argument. It's really hard to know when she means it and when she doesn't. But she wants to stay married too, and views it sort of like why would I throw our marriage and family life into chaos over a vaccine for a disease that my chances of dying from are like 1 in 25,000. Of course I reject that premise for reasons mentioned above, she chooses how she feels etc. So naturally I know quite well that it wouldn't be much of a marriage to save if I simply go with her suggested path. The dynamic would be that whoever feels the strongest about something would get their way - and I'm happy to do that until real world consequences are involved.

I guess that's why I say I am not sure how well we'll survive this - because I'm not the one who will be left disappointed by my decision. I might be disappointed by her behavior after the fact but I'll have been the one who charted our course.








 

[youngwildandfree]

Your whole post sounds very condescending toward your wife.  I'm not surprised she picks up on it.

You need to learn to respect her opinions and feelings, no matter how wrong you think she is.  You will face far greater challenges than this in your marriage.

I guess I'll ask you the same question I ask her. What can you point to that shows condescension and what is a better approach?

I am genuinely feeling as though my wife's exhortation for us to "work together" when facing big issues is simply a subconscious euphemism for us to take the path she feels is best. Because no matter how respectful, patient, and willing to listen I am the moment I will gently question the premise or present my views I will, sooner or later, get a comment like "well I guess you've made up your mind" or "you always talk like your understanding is the only understanding."

So I walk away from the conversation feeling as though the only thing that would make her feel heard and respected is more or less agreement. Perhaps you can share some techniques to disagree firmly and respectfully.

It sounds like you have made up your mind.  If she is making you uncomfortable around your family, it's fair to say "no political talk, please, or I will be cutting the visit short because that's not pleasant for me."  You can disagree without trying to convince her that her position is incorrect.

It's not helpful to continue talking about the vaccine. Get it and make an appointment with a therapist.

It sounds like he has made up his mind about the vaccine, but my understanding is the concern is communication in general. How does he keep the conflict to a minimum in this specific situation, and how does he help her feel heard and loved without agreeing with her?

To OP: I have people in my life who I love that process information and conflicts in the way you describe. Thankfully my spouse is not one of them. Perhaps it is my personal bias, but I disagree with some of these posts/conventional wisdom that "there are two sides to this" or "the problem is both of you need to come together". If she can't have a discussion/disagreement without throwing a fit and saying you don't respect or love her, that's a huge problem. That is not something YOU can solve for her. It is perhaps something you can deal with better though.

Please do seek therapy, both individually and together. As Malcat pointed out, you cannot keep this decision from causing conflict, but conflict is not bad in and of itself. You do need to find healthier ways to discuss problems and make decisions as a team. It sounds like part of that is finding ways to say no to her or deal with her being unreasonable.

[sonofsven]

I would go to solo counseling for now.
You won't necessarily find a therapist that "works" for you right away, so keep trying.
You want someone that will listen to you and challenge you, it's not always easy, but it's helpful to you to have the undivided attention of an expert (hopefully!) while you rant away. It will help to solidify your own thoughts and feelings without the extra emotional turmoil of the current situation with your spouse, with her sitting right there.
FWIW, I've seen six different therapists over the years, three men and three women, and I had the best results with one of the women and one of the men. Two of them I saw once and that was it (bad fit).
One of the women was a relationship counselor we saw when going through a difficult time with my current partner. The relationship survived, but the counseling relationship did not. I felt that my partner bonded so strongly with the counselor it left me the "odd man out" (I am kinda an odd man, so...). The counselor let slip that she was going through her own issues with her own husband (who was "so like me") so that didn't help. But it was still helpful overall, in that it increased our ability to communicate.
Also, all of this happened after my relationship with my wife hit the skids. We divorced when my daughter was four. It was difficult but we turned it around and developed a very positive co-parenting relationship that was good for all of us.

Edit: I just read your post above. Wow. Be careful. I would be very concerned that she's going to run off with the kids to escape your "tyranny". You might need to skip the marriage counselor and head right to the lawyer.

[scantee]

I thought I remembered that you and your spouse had another big marital disagreement in the past so I looked back at your history and saw the thread about you leaving the faith spiritually while remaining a part of it culturally. Is that still the case? How did you resolve that with your wife? Because that is a pretty big marital disagreement in terms of values and if you were able to come to a shared understanding about that issue it may provide guidance as to how to approach this one.

Just one more thing: threatening divorce or separation to get your partner to behave the way you want is not okay. It is not okay that you’re wife has done that repeatedly. I imagine you likely know that yet I think it is important to impress on you how dysfunctional that behavior is on her part. She really needs individual therapy to address some of these maladaptive behaviors.

[J Boogie]

OP, I think you have a serious problem if you think THIS is the insurmountable fork in the road. I wouldn't dream of divorcing DH over this, and I dont even have children to raise.  It just isnt that big of a deal. Your REAL problem surrounding the Covid vaccine will come when your children are eligible for vaccine. You may need counseling to work through that one.

But how would you feel if your DH was ready to go nuclear about you getting it?

I'm happy to stay out of her decision to get it or not. My belief is that her behavior towards me is controlling in an extremely unhealthy way and I have said as much.  I know you're not supposed to use therapy for this, but I'd be lying if I said I wasn't interested in some 3rd party validation on that one. I'd really like it if a trusted friend of hers would weigh in on this. I've asked her if she's asked her friends about it, and she says she has - but her line of inquiry is usually more along the lines of how they feel about the mandate, the messaging, the corruption and capture in the federal agencies etc and little to nothing about the ultimatum (that she backed off of) about me getting it.

We talked to our priest and he wisely avoided playing the referee, mostly encouraging us to love and support each other, walk together, and focus on Jesus. Unfortunately when she told him about her brother's move to Texas his comments were "well that is heroic but it is good for families not to move too much or they never put down roots." He also threw me an unusable bone by saying that he had noticed when families did what the women wanted to do and the men just went along with it that the men became effeminate. LOL. I can't work with that. I can't seriously argue to my wife that I have to get my way or I'll become effeminate and she wouldn't want that either.  He's from Peru BTW and speaks freely. He got vaxxed after some initial hesitation but realized being a priest means he'll be constantly around others. He said if you can avoid it, avoid it. But get it if you must. The problem here is my wife sees me as being willing and able to find some decent paying job at a company with less than 100 employees that doesn't care if I'm vaxxed very soon. We have some savings, like 20k or so, but it's for real emergencies and not self-inflicted ones, and I would probably be taking like a 30-50% pay cut to take my not-very-transferable skills elsewhere assuming I could quickly find another job.

[J Boogie]

I thought I remembered that you and your spouse had another big marital disagreement in the past so I looked back at your history and saw the thread about you leaving the faith spiritually while remaining a part of it culturally. Is that still the case? How did you resolve that with your wife? Because that is a pretty big marital disagreement in terms of values and if you were able to come to a shared understanding about that issue it may provide guidance as to how to approach this one.

Just one more thing: threatening divorce or separation to get your partner to behave the way you want is not okay. It is not okay that you’re wife has done that repeatedly. I imagine you likely know that yet I think it is important to impress on you how dysfunctional that behavior is on her part. She really needs individual therapy to address some of these maladaptive behaviors.

That factors into it a little bit. I have come back into the faith and have written a bit about it - I think I'll resurrect that thread and share the follow up.

She has shared that she felt I was alone on my faith journey and often feels I operate on my own in general when it comes thinking about the big things. We are trying to participate in our faith together more now. But the feeling I get, and part of why I mentioned to Malcat that I don't feel comfortable being vulnerable during conflict with her, is that she views this period of doubt as a sign of my spiritual unreliability and that she must be the spiritual leader of the family.

But yeah, if I mention her unhealthy behaviors to her, she begins to resent the idea that she's the problem in the relationship and tells me I never self reflect. Then I ask her what I should reflect on, and don't really get anything I can work with, except things like how I didn't "have her back" when my sister in law expressed surprise that she was not an American citizen and she took this as a microaggression (which she now looks back on with regret as she processed this in a way she later came to understand as overly sensitive - but my betrayal remains, even if her initial judgment does not).

Probably not the right move to insist on telling someone they're the problem and they need to work on themselves, so I'm hoping that by doing couples therapy we can address some of this. And yeah, I'm happy to work on my stuff too.

[joemandadman189]

OP, I think you have a serious problem if you think THIS is the insurmountable fork in the road. I wouldn't dream of divorcing DH over this, and I dont even have children to raise.  It just isnt that big of a deal. Your REAL problem surrounding the Covid vaccine will come when your children are eligible for vaccine. You may need counseling to work through that one.

But how would you feel if your DH was ready to go nuclear about you getting it?

I'm happy to stay out of her decision to get it or not. My belief is that her behavior towards me is controlling in an extremely unhealthy way and I have said as much.  I know you're not supposed to use therapy for this, but I'd be lying if I said I wasn't interested in some 3rd party validation on that one. I'd really like it if a trusted friend of hers would weigh in on this. I've asked her if she's asked her friends about it, and she says she has - but her line of inquiry is usually more along the lines of how they feel about the mandate, the messaging, the corruption and capture in the federal agencies etc and little to nothing about the ultimatum (that she backed off of) about me getting it.

We talked to our priest and he wisely avoided playing the referee, mostly encouraging us to love and support each other, walk together, and focus on Jesus. Unfortunately when she told him about her brother's move to Texas his comments were "well that is heroic but it is good for families not to move too much or they never put down roots." He also threw me an unusable bone by saying that he had noticed when families did what the women wanted to do and the men just went along with it that the men became effeminate. LOL. I can't work with that. I can't seriously argue to my wife that I have to get my way or I'll become effeminate and she wouldn't want that either.  He's from Peru BTW and speaks freely. He got vaxxed after some initial hesitation but realized being a priest means he'll be constantly around others. He said if you can avoid it, avoid it. But get it if you must. The problem here is my wife sees me as being willing and able to find some decent paying job at a company with less than 100 employees that doesn't care if I'm vaxxed very soon. We have some savings, like 20k or so, but it's for real emergencies and not self-inflicted ones, and I would probably be taking like a 30-50% pay cut to take my not-very-transferable skills elsewhere assuming I could quickly find another job.

WTF, just WTF.

if i were you, i would get the vaccine, if she goes nuclear - take the kids and get a divorce. The whole situation is terrible, but think of your health and that of your kids.

Or listen to Malcat

[ysette9]

Oh wow, I feel for you. What a tough spot to be in. I agree with others that you need to both get into counseling immediately. The vaccine question merely unearthed what sounds like a big pile of issues you’ve got collecting under the rug.

From my outside perspective it sounds like you having values that don’t line up, which is huge. I also wonder if your wife may be struggling with depression without realizing it? It took me quite a while to realize in myself that after each baby I went through an incredibly tough time that was PPD that lasted over a year in each case. My youngest is 2 so for those who can do math, you realize his babyhood intersected with Covid. I happened to FIRE just as the Covid shutdown hit so what was supposed to be a rejuvenating time for me became something like hell being locked at home with little kids 24/7.

Some people do great being stay at home parents. Maybe your wife is one of them. I am very much not. The difficulty of having a baby and being at home combined with the isolation and constant stress of Covid did a real number on my mental health. It was tough on me and my husband and the kids. And my husband and I are aligned value-wise.

In my parents I saw the isolation and worry lead them to consuming a lot of media and that got them riled up. It negatively impacted their lives and that was just consuming fact-based reality media. I imagine a diet of conspiracy theory junk food media would be even worse for the mental health. In their case they left the country and now spend their time hiking in beautiful outdoor nature instead of locked up reading about political messes. Those changes have been transformative for them and they are happy, optimistic people again.

That is my long way of saying that it may be helpful for your wife to consider something productive outside the home to get her mind engaged elsewhere. That could help combat the isolation and worry and leave little time for a diet of junk and lies.

But definitely get counseling. Good luck.

[roomtempmayo]

@J Boogie This is a rough spot and I don't envy you.

This isn't worth blowing up your marriage or your job over.  A couple years from now this will look like a conflict over whether you should build a bunker for Y2K.  The whole thing will just pass and nobody will want to admit how emotionally invested they were in it.

There is a compromise to be had here by changing the terms of the engagement.  Right now you're framing it as a dichotomous (vax/no vax) situation, which is a zero sum game.  You need to find a way to introduce other competing values and interests to allow both of you to come out of your corners while saving face.

From what you say and what I can infer, your wife has two identities and values.  The first is the internet conspiracy theorist.  My guess is this is relatively new.  She's enthusiastic about it, but it's not that deeply rooted.  The second is as a Catholic housewife who supports her family and wants them to thrive.  My guess is that this is the hard core of her identity, and you can lean on it to find a compromise.

If it were me, I'd start by acknowledging that there's a risk to taking a vaccine.  The extent of that risk is immaterial.  You think it's small, she thinks it's big.  Resist the urge to litigate this point.  And then, if it were me, I'd say that men have long taken bigger risks to provide for their families.  They've worked in coal mines.  They've joined the infantry.  They've gone fishing offshore.  By taking a risk to provide for your family, you're demonstrating how much you love them and want them to have everything they need.  And this is a business decision you're making because it simply must be done to head off really bad consequences.

That's the best I've got.  Good luck.  You'll find a way through this.

[charis]

The fact you don't think you have anything to work on, just her, as you've stated repeatedly, but she doesn't think that you have her back, is a bit of a red flag. The least you could do is start solo therapy, first as a gesture of your willingness to put in the same work that you'd like her to do. If nothing else, it may help you clarify what you need to continue this relationship and decide how to move forward, whether it's together or apart.

[ysette9]

On thé risk discussion, it is true there are risks with the vaccines. If it is helpful (and I suspect it wouldn’t be because you can have a rational discussion with an irrational person) compare the risks side by side.


What are the known risks of the vaccines? What are the known risks of Covid? How likely are you to have death or negative side effects from both?

The thing to keep in mind is that the two choices are Covid vaccine or Covid. The way things have spiraled so totally out of control in the US there is no third option of avoiding getting sick if you live in society and have a life span over a couple of years.

[ysette9]

The fact you don't think you have anything to work on, just her, as you've stated repeatedly, but she doesn't think that you have her back, is a bit of a red flag. The least you could do is start solo therapy, first as a gesture of your willingness to put in the same work that you'd like her to do. If nothing else, it may help you clarify what you need to continue this relationship and decide how to move forward, whether it's together or apart.

Ding ding!

[Metalcat]

Wow, thanks for a solid chunk of good advice here. I guess I'll share more detail here to keep things easy.

I agree that the vaccine is simply the thing that is revealing we have different ways of arriving at truth when it comes to making big decisions. We just simply didn't have any big decisions before. A few years ago she insisted that I keep the modem/router out of the bedroom, even though it meant a little bit of rewiring. Fine by me, I don't think wifi is harmful but there's no cost to moving a router.

However many of these things have been popping up lately. She wanted to get a no trespassing sign when Biden announced people might canvas neighborhoods about vaccination. Eh, not my favorite look or vibe of neighborliness but not the hill I'll die on. Still, if there's something I'm not comfortable with I will mention how I feel about it even if I compromise. Recently she has been talking about moving to a state like Texas, Florida, or some other red state to be proactive about escaping the tyranny she feels is on the horizon. Some here know we live in MN. We have an amazing parish we live very close to and have a great little Catholic community we are very involved in. Plus my family is here. But recently her IL based brother got pressure to get vaxxed by his employer and recently got a job in TX and will be moving soon. So she has some feelings of wishing that were her family. She has other family members she is close to that have the same views and ones that are even more intense.

About her family. She's not a citizen yet. She was born in Nicaragua during the socialist Sandinista era and her parents fled to Miami soon after. There is an unhealthy level of distrust and fixation when it comes to the govt, specifically democrats. There are very few actual socialists for US latin american political refugees to fixate around, so the democrats receive this as they're the next best thing. There is a sort of PTSD where many things are interpreted as signs of tyranny and dismissing these concerns is viewed as denying the validity of her parents' experience and the things they've gone through giving them a unique insight where I might not pick up on clues.

She has gone to therapy before, but it was mostly for her to overcome the trauma surrounding her C section to give her the courage to attempt a vaginal birth for her second. There was some talk of family issues, as she has occasionally fought with family members, and she mentioned therapy helped her grow in being able to better control her anger. I've never done personal therapy and my honest view is that I'm not in need of it - the obvious problem here is that she is, understandably, not a fan of being the one in the relationship that needs to change. I'm not sure what issues I would personally work on - for a while I would bottle things up and not bring them up until we had an argument, but these days I'm better bringing things up as they come. But I would be happy to attend couples therapy to develop some better communication habits which is a joint problem.

Do I feel I can trust her with my vulnerability during a conflict? I guess the answer is no. To do so I would need us to have quite a few arguments in a row where she did not bring up past events. I would need to see more restraint during arguments where things we generally agree are not helpful to bring up and not brought up. She will tend to lash out if she feels hurt and I will not usually be too affected as the insults or hurtful comments she makes rarely ring very true and are fairly easy to understand simply as lashing out. But it does make me very hesitant to offer any vulnerability. This is enlightening. Thanks again.

Regarding what embarrasses me, I guess part of the reason I married her is because I believed her to be intelligent, considerate, and reasonable. And she is. Perhaps her us vs them worldview is what made her capable of accepting the validity of these fertility whataboutisms to occupy a mental space that should be reserved for evidence-based concerns. Cnce we get deep enough into the discussion there are signs a paranoid worldview is behind this as well - well encapsulated by the idea that this vaccine and its corresponding passports *might* be the mark of the beast mentioned in the book of revelation.

We are Catholics, and one of the benefits of our oppressive, centralized Church is that we don't leave willy nilly scripture interpretation up to the unwashed masses. HOWEVER. There is an embarrassingly strong strain of right wing Catholic populism active right now, with figures like Vigano and Altman leading the charge in decrying the corruption in the Vatican and insisting the true path for the faithful is more or less the inverse of whatever secular authorities are promoting. Catholic moral theology as enshrined by Thomas Aquinas and Alphonsus Ligouri supports the common good practice of getting vaccines, and the Church put out authoritative documents saying even though some of the cell lines used to test the vaccines came from elective abortions that Catholics should (but are not morally obligated to) get vaccinated. But many influential Catholics view abortion as bigger than our tradition of moral theology and there should be no cooperation with it at all.

Sorry to get into the weeds.

Regarding her willingness to resolve this, she is willing to go 1000% into masking and scrimping and supplementing and distancing if it means I don't get vaccinated. But she has mentioned multiple times she doesn't see a way forward for us if I get it and has mentioned separation a few times in the heat of the argument. It's really hard to know when she means it and when she doesn't. But she wants to stay married too, and views it sort of like why would I throw our marriage and family life into chaos over a vaccine for a disease that my chances of dying from are like 1 in 25,000. Of course I reject that premise for reasons mentioned above, she chooses how she feels etc. So naturally I know quite well that it wouldn't be much of a marriage to save if I simply go with her suggested path. The dynamic would be that whoever feels the strongest about something would get their way - and I'm happy to do that until real world consequences are involved.

I guess that's why I say I am not sure how well we'll survive this - because I'm not the one who will be left disappointed by my decision. I might be disappointed by her behavior after the fact but I'll have been the one who charted our course.

Well yeah, your marriage might not survive being tested, many marriages with fundamental fault lines don't.

You can't chart your collective course either, you can just get a vaccine that you need to get, and then she can react however her priorities and values drive her to react.

You don't have the power to control her reaction, you just don't.

Also, I want to come back to your statement that you don't need therapy and she does. I get therapy regularly and I'm what my therapist calls "remarkably mentally healthy". Therapy is a tool that I use to maintain that excellent health, especially when faced with difficult situations where I'm unsure exactly what to do.

Being mentally healthy doesn't by default make you excellent at handling conflict or difficult situations.

To me, you saying that you don't need therapy, but she does, is highly problematic. Perhaps you don't have a mental health issue and she might, but you are BOTH in a situation that is very difficult, where you could both benefit from support.

Her previous traumas and experiences may make it more challenging for her to deal with certain things emotionally, but you're both stuck in the exact same difficult marriage. This problem belongs to both of you, and yes, you both need support to get through it.

If you aren't emotionally traumatized yourself, you probably will be by the end of this if you don't seek appropriate supports along the way.

First things first though, you need to accept that things are going to get much worse even if they do ultimately get better. The sooner you accept that, the sooner you can start figuring out how you want to handle things.

If she is threatening to leave you over something that you've already decided to do (which yes, you should do and are entirely entitled to do), then yes, this very realistically could lead to the end of your marriage, but there may be nothing you can do to prevent that.

What you need to decide is what measures you are willing to take to *try* and prevent that outcome.

ETA: I also just wanted to say, anyone who feels compelled to share their deep personal marital conflict with strangers on the internet who will likely shit on them in response DEFINITELY could use a good therapist.

[J Boogie]

Ok I'm confused. I'm happy to go to couples therapy and learn about some ways to improve myself, or go to solo therapy to learn how to deal with this situation better.

But I'm unclear on something. This just seems like semantics to me.

I shouldn't pretend that I have toxic behaviors that need to be addressed by therapy, correct? I might have some, sure, but if I do I'm unaware of them and believe it is disingenuous to carry on as though I want to "work on myself" like the fit wife telling her obese husband she wants to improve her shoddy health and would he like to work out with her.

To be clear, I haven't suggested to my wife that SHE should go to therapy alone for her toxic behavior. But I don't see the benefit in pretending to find fault in my own behavior beyond simply signaling openness to change the way I communicate etc.

[wenchsenior]

I just want to echo what Malcat said in the previous post. People often mistake 'therapy' with being psycho analysis (e.g., talk therapy where you delve into your family/history/subconscious etc).  That is ONE type of therapy, but there are many other types of therapies, and some are focused around simply building awareness of habitual patterns of thought or behavior, and developing new tools and skills to better manage those.  That is more what is needed here.

In general you have great sympathy from me.  Several people on this thread indicated sentiments like this is 'not a big deal; wait until you have a REAL marriage conflict' or 'marriage means regular conflict and this is just more of that' etc.  Having been married more than 20 years and in a relationship for more than 30, I find those kind of sentiments absolutely incredible (and often wonder just what the hell sorts of relationships people are living with). This would be a five alarm fire in my own marriage, and I would muster every possible effort to deal with it...not just hope it blows over.

First, get the shot ASAP. There's no need to tell her you got it. Your safety and your kids' safety is paramount.

Second, counseling is clearly in order here; and I agree with several posters that this appears to be a flag on more extensive problems with your communication as a couple (or possibly with her emotional health).  I wonder if your wife isn't struggling with isolation or loneliness or generalized anxiety (totally understandable given the past couple years) that is latching itself onto social media or more extreme religious beliefs than normal.  That is something that a good counselor should ferret out pretty quickly, but they might need individual time with your wife (or you) to do it.

I also agree that a joint effort at social media 'fasting' and also media consumption, using jointly established 'rules' of skepticism/critical thinking, might be helpful.

Good luck.  Remember that as a scary as this kind of warning sign can be, it's also helpful b/c it can force us to change, learn, and grow.  It took me a long time to start recognizing that a lot of the most unpleasant periods of my life taught me the most useful stuff.

[Metalcat]

Ok I'm confused. I'm happy to go to couples therapy and learn about some ways to improve myself, or go to solo therapy to learn how to deal with this situation better.

But I'm unclear on something. This just seems like semantics to me.

I shouldn't pretend that I have toxic behaviors that need to be addressed by therapy, correct? I might have some, sure, but if I do I'm unaware of them and believe it is disingenuous to carry on as though I want to "work on myself" like the fit wife telling her obese husband she wants to improve her shoddy health and would he like to work out with her.

To be clear, I haven't suggested to my wife that SHE should go to therapy alone for her toxic behavior. But I don't see the benefit in pretending to find fault in my own behavior beyond simply signaling openness to change the way I communicate etc.

You're assuming that therapy is for fixing yourself. It isn't.
That's a HUGE problem in your thinking. Therapy is for seeking expert level help in dealing with the challenges of life.

You are absolutely dealing with a major challenge that you could use help navigating.

I don't go to therapy because I'm broken, I go to therapy because I know that everyone struggles with challenges sometimes, and therapy helps keep your thinking about those struggles in a healthy, productive space.

Even if you are perfectly mentally healthy, that doesn't mean you are amazing at making decisions or handling conflict without some guidance and support. That doesn't mean you aren't as prone to human bias and errors in judgement just like every other human being.

You wouldn't be reaching out here if you didn't need some kind of support. I guarantee you that a paid professional will be better, more appropriate support than a bunch of judgemental internet strangers.

[sonofsven]

Ok I'm confused. I'm happy to go to couples therapy and learn about some ways to improve myself, or go to solo therapy to learn how to deal with this situation better.

But I'm unclear on something. This just seems like semantics to me.

I shouldn't pretend that I have toxic behaviors that need to be addressed by therapy, correct? I might have some, sure, but if I do I'm unaware of them and believe it is disingenuous to carry on as though I want to "work on myself" like the fit wife telling her obese husband she wants to improve her shoddy health and would he like to work out with her.

To be clear, I haven't suggested to my wife that SHE should go to therapy alone for her toxic behavior. But I don't see the benefit in pretending to find fault in my own behavior beyond simply signaling openness to change the way I communicate etc.

That is an excellent subject to discuss with your therapist.

[roomtempmayo]

@J Boogie  I'm going to go against the line of thinking from several folks saying that this vax discussion is a sign of something bigger/deeper that you must address or you'll never have a happy marriage.

I'd at least allow the possibility that your marriage is basically fine.  Quirky, yes.  But so are lots of marriages.  I don't think you need to get all the quirks worked out in order to keep going.

The pandemic is a weird event that's thrown lots of good people off their game.  Give the world a chance to get back to normal before excavating the faultlines in your marriage.  It may turn out that those fissures sink back away from the surface in the future and become functionally unimportant.

You can have a perfectly fine marriage with someone who is very different than you, and you certainly don't need to go digging into every past disagreement and trauma to make sure you're totally aligned.  All you need is a workable day-to-day relationship for doing life.  It sounds like if you can get past this particular disagreement, you two can basically do normal life together going forward.