The Money Mustache Community
Learning, Sharing, and Teaching => Ask a Mustachian => Topic started by: J Boogie on September 21, 2021, 03:48:04 PM
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Team,
We've reached a fork in the road. We have two kids. 5 and 2. I work, she doesn't. Both mid thirties.
I need to make the right decision here and I believe with near perfect confidence she has made some critical errors in assessing the situation. She is equally convinced of the opposite. She has what I think would be understood as a paranoid worldview that can occasionally impact the way we make decisions but not too often and there's usually a way to find something close to a win win. But in this case what I am going to do will leave her extremely upset.
It's the vax. I have to get it to keep my job like nearly everyone else. I'm happy to. I considered risk/benefit and had planned on getting it a while ago and that's when our disagreements began but now they've reached a fever pitch. She believes there could be some potential long term issues w fertility or DNA and I must admit I am embarrassed to share this dispute with anyone I know in real life. Just the fact that I feel ashamed of her is obviously a bad sign for our marriage, and while I try my absolute hardest to discuss this issue respectfully she inevitably walks away feeling as though I am behaving condescendingly towards her (without being able to point to any examples - I simply make her feel this way and am not sure how to behave short of pretending to agree with evidence free claims. A separate issue, but I often feel as though she subconsciously weaponizes her hurt to get me to be more amenable to her point of view and ultimately her favored approach. It feels like emotional blackmail, it feels like she's being excessively controlling about a call that is unambiguously my call to make, and I've called this out in attempt to shut it down but she has persisted albeit with a softer tone).
So I'm in a rough position where doing the obviously right thing for my family, not just medically, but from a providing financial stability perspective, is going to translate to my wife as disregarding her concerns and l leaving her feeling unappreciated, unloved, and vetoed.
Obviously, we'll probably need counseling. Any tips on how to approach this? This is my wife here and I want to stay married. We otherwise have a great relationship with very few issues. But this paranoid/political aspect really blew up over the past 18 months or so and has been driving a wedge between us. I have brought this up that we should try to avoid politics but it has become sort of the main thing she shares and naturally begins to talk about and I'm pretty much never on the same page. We have seen my family a bit less because they're mostly not that politically minded and the ones who are lean in the other direction. And when we do I stress a bit because my wife has shared she feels betrayed when I do not have her back when she has disagreements or dust ups with my family members. She is really polite and considerate and restrained around my family but given her main go-to's for topics these days that she gets fired up about I'd rather visit my family without her to avoid the headache and then potential blowback for failing to chime in on her behalf even if I think she's in the wrong.
Thanks for reading, thanks in advance for any advice. Even if it's just to go to therapy, which yeah, I already know. We'll get it on the calendar.
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Yes, counseling for sure. And also, maybe you could read some reputable sources about how to deal with loved ones who have fallen into conspiracy cults/ disinformation rabbit holes. It might help you try to figure out a strategy for communicating.
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Obviously therapy will be necessary if you want to stay married. I would be seriously asking whether I did want to stay married - many things can be worked through, but this would have me questioning whether wife's judgement can be trusted about anything important at all.
But that's gonna take time to set up and work through. In the mean time, just go get the vaccine. Right now - go find a CVS or wherever it is available in your area and get your first shot tonight or tomorrow. You know what she thinks. You know there's no way to convince her. You know what the right thing to do is. So just go do it.
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Wow, this is such a tough one and I am so sorry that you are faced with this challenging situation. There are so many articles I would love to link here about young families where one or both parents have died because of Covid, but I’m sure you’ve seen them or could easily find dozens of them from a quick Google search. As you’ve mentioned, counseling is definitely in order.
My initial thought is that you need to ask yourself what’s most important in this situation. Is it keeping your spouse happy, is it doing everything within your power to remain alive for your children, is it doing what you can to reasonably prevent passing a virus to others who might die from getting it, is it remaining fertile at all costs (even if you die before the child can be born), etc?
If I were a parent, I think my number one obligation would be to my children. If you can’t provide for them because you’ve lost your job or you’ve got a horrible case of long-haul Covid or you’ve died, those all create hardship (potentially lifelong) for your children.
This is one situation where I think you should do what’s best for you, whether that risks pissing off your wife or risks dealing with serious repercussions of a potentially fatal virus.
I do not envy the position you are in. Please keep us posted.
(If I had a vote, I’d vote you get the vaccination. I want you to be around as long as possible - even if just for the benefit of your children - and I don’t even know you.)
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I simply make her feel this way
I don't think so. That way lies victimhood, guilt trips, and manipulative behavior. Her feelings are hers, and she needs to own them. (As an aside, this is true regardless of sex, gender, or orientation of the people involved in the relationship.)
What alternatives other than not getting vaccinated does she suggest? If that is the only alternative she has offered, that does sound unreasonable. Would she consider freezing some of your sperm for later? Costly, probably, but technically a possible option.
When you don't like all the option you have, find more options.
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Thanks everyone. To be clear, I'm getting vaccinated and keeping my job. I am crystal clear on what is the right choice morally.
I largely trust my wife's judgment and conscience but have found where this gut feeling, intuition type of decision can have major negative outcomes I have a duty to step in and prevent or reroute it as much as possible with, shall we say, a firm and gentle manner. The distrust of large bureaucratic institutions exists for me as well, but I prefer to assess things from first principles. Definitely not interested in divorce though.
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What alternatives other than not getting vaccinated does she suggest? If that is the only alternative she has offered, that does sound unreasonable. Would she consider freezing some of your sperm for later? Costly, probably, but technically a possible option.
Well, my employer won't accept our supplement and horse paste receipts as proof of immunity :)
Regarding the frozen sperm, our faith does not permit in vitro.
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Wow, this sounds really tough. It sounds like you are clear on both your own path forward (vaccination, staying healthy for yourself/your family, keeping your job & financial security, & attending to therapy). All of those sound like the right steps.
A few things jump out at me from your post/follow up:
-I get that you want to stay married, & can respect that. I agree with a previous poster that this would really cause some major angst for me, as I would be quite torn between staying married to someone exhibiting this type of judgement, and our overall desire to stay together.
-You reference your wife talking a lot about politics. How is she doing otherwise? Does she have friends, hobbies & other positive things in her life? Becoming overly focused on politics (regardless of your political affinity) isn't super healthy. Does she exercise, and take good care of herself? Can you have a frank conversation (perhaps with the help of a therapist) that you respect her desire to have her own political perspective, but you want family time & discussion to be focused on other things?
-To the point above, I'd be really unimpressed if my spouse wanted to go to my family's home & start up a political debate that no one wanted to have. That would be a pretty big problem for me. And, my spouse is an adult, so I wouldn't swoop in & defend him. I'd instead attempt to diffuse the situation, and then request politely that we don't repeat that. Is your family trying to start up these political debates, & your wife is simply stating her perspective? Or, is the family gathered around talking about Timmy's latest baseball game, or Grandma's excellent cooking, & your wife starts talking politics?
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What alternatives other than not getting vaccinated does she suggest? If that is the only alternative she has offered, that does sound unreasonable. Would she consider freezing some of your sperm for later? Costly, probably, but technically a possible option.
Well, my employer won't accept our supplement and horse paste receipts as proof of immunity :)
Regarding the frozen sperm, our faith does not permit in vitro.
Does it prohibit all assisted reproductive technology? The most common way to get pregnant with frozen sperm is actually IUI, which is a glorified turkey baster. If this is the true stumbling block, I might go for it even if I thought it was crazy.
I don't have good thoughts on the rest. I'm sorry you are facing such a tough situation.
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What alternatives other than not getting vaccinated does she suggest? If that is the only alternative she has offered, that does sound unreasonable. Would she consider freezing some of your sperm for later? Costly, probably, but technically a possible option.
Well, my employer won't accept our supplement and horse paste receipts as proof of immunity :)
Regarding the frozen sperm, our faith does not permit in vitro.
Frozen sperm can be used in utero, if that makes any difference.
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this is really a tough one, sorry you are going through it.
So yes, definitely to therapy.
the "having her back" when you disagree with her? what would that look like? Would you pretend to share her view? I don't understandd this. That should be a topic for the therapist as well.
Being ashamed of her. that is tough, and I suppose you don't feel like you can be honest about this with her? of course, not using the word ashamed.
But yeah, if divorce is off the table, definitely therapy.
I tried very hard to make my marriage work, but once I had lost respect/felt ashamed of xh, it progress very rapidly to dislike.
Good luck.
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I learned early in marriage counseling (first marriage) that nobody makes me feel...anything. I alone *choose* how I feel. It's a great idea to get counseling to learn how to communicate and to stop pushing each other's buttons. And to remove manipulative language from your conversations.
That being said, this particular fork in the road would probably be a deal breaker for me. I've had to distance myself from family members who refuse to get vaccinated - I really feel for you.
If my spouse insisted on making choices that endangered me and my kids, I'd have a tough time sticking around. Since she's worried about fertility and DNA issues, she thinks you are making a choice that will harm any future children you might have and might affect her and your current kids indirectly. How do you "agree to disagree" on something where both partners believe the other's action (or inaction) will harm the family? And where each side thinks the other is misinformed and irrational?
You are going to need one heck of a good counselor to keep this train on the tracks. I wish you all the best.
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I’m sorry this is happening. I think you’re far from alone. Just yesterday my neighbor told me he is contemplating divorce over the same constellation of issues. My partner and I luckily each have our own house but he, although vaccinated, is a much bigger risk taker than I am. My attitude is that I have no interest in policing his behavior but I also have no interest in getting a breakthrough infection, so I am happy to stay apart for as long as he wants so he can enjoy the freedom to hang out indoors and unmasked with other people. (This experience is Reason #4,857 I will never cohabitate with anyone again. Our relationship is strained but basically okay right now. If we lived together we would have broken up.)
I have seen antivaxxers who have adopted the (originally pro-choice!) slogan “my body, my choice.” Does she believe in individual choice? If she believes in it for herself, surely she must see that you are entitled to the same choice. I don’t think you’re going to change her mind on the safety of vaccines but perhaps she is susceptible to ordinary concepts of autonomy and respect?
Regardless, get vaccinated right away. You have nothing to gain and everything to lose by waiting.
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How do you even pick a therapist in this situation. I mean as polarizing as this topic is today I'm sure you can easily find one to support both of your views. How will your wife handle a therapist who is pro vaccine. Probably about as good as you'd handle one anti vax.
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I experienced a battle earlier this year with a smart, curious loved one who had fallen into anti-vax conspiracies. Based on that experience IMHO you cannot underestimate how this disinformation has been effectively weaponized. Ultimately the person was vaxxed. Perhaps what made them switch was the peer pressure of everyone around them doing it, and the realization that these helping professionals (doctors, nurses, etc) mobilized in the nearby large vaccination center were likely not doing anything nefarious. But they still harbor some resentment about how "it was all communicated" and do not admit to falling prey to disinformation. I think it's key that this is not a win-lose between you and her. Because falling into these rabbit holes is deeply emotional and addicting. I know what you mean about the embarrassment as this person is ranting about something.
Getting past this as a family will make you all stronger for it. And then setting up fun alternatives to media consumption and ground rules for family conversations (including the kids) can be good too.
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The root problem is probably neither the vaccine nor the politics.
It's how to deal with disagreements - discussing, listening, being patient, being respectful, being reasonable, being mature, identifying options, cooperating, believing the best rather than the worst, trusting, compromising where possible.
The lack of respect on both sides is a major danger signal. Major. Major. Huge.
Counseling, either together or apart or both, is probably the best bet. Since OP mentioned faith, perhaps a pastor or rabbi or other church leader could be an option. They have a greater likelihood of trying to keep the marriage together, which is not always the case with secular counselors. This is probably important to OP, and maybe has a better chance of being acceptable to his wife as an option. It can also be less expensive.
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I mean, anyone who's married, especially with kids, understands that conflict happens. Constantly. Ironically, I disagree that THIS particular topic is about disagreements. It is a weaponized cultural meme with a lot of money being made on perpetuating the conflict.
However, in a matter of months it may be so glaringly obvious what the answer is that the argument will end of its own accord.
Another interesting philosophical question is, to protect his life and that of his young children, should OP get vaccinated in secret? Apparently in many parts of the US where antivax sentiment is the popular view, plenty of patients are vaccinated in secret, with the doctor suggesting no one needs to know.
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I am in a divided household about the vax. I am vaccinated because I consider the Covid illness to be far more threatening to my own health than the vaccine.My spouse does not agree. I respect him making a decision for his own body, just as I get to make the decision for my own body.
He is a separate person from me, he gets to make separate decisions. And yes, I think his decision is fairly stupid. But he does so many things that earn my respect, this is one issue of many.
OP, I think you have a serious problem if you think THIS is the insurmountable fork in the road. I wouldn't dream of divorcing DH over this, and I dont even have children to raise. It just isnt that big of a deal. Your REAL problem surrounding the Covid vaccine will come when your children are eligible for vaccine. You may need counseling to work through that one.
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I mean, it isn’t that big a deal if you aren’t concerned with your spouse bringing Covid into the house and infecting, hospitalizing, or killing your kids. Or your spouse contracting it herself, and potentially depriving your young children of their mother.
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Oof.
You say you’re going to get the vaccine. I suggest doing it, like, tomorrow. Every drugstore chain has appointments and it takes like 30 minutes. The reason I think you should do it immediately is that it forecloses on that that piece of your disagreement and allows you to move on to dealing with the aftermath. After you get it, tell her, and also tell her you’re open to discussing any concerns she has.
You say you are religious so maybe there is someone within your community who you trust who would be willing to work with you as a couple. A therapist that is ‘like’ you is much more likely to be trusted by your wife than an outsider. I suspect though that you may have limited success with therapy. Therapy tends to distill all relationships down to communication — which don’t get me wrong is super important— when there are some differences that can’t be improved through better communication. Sometimes you just have different values and no amount of talking can change that. At that point you need to find a way to maintain respect for each other knowing that you may likely never agree on this issue.
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Oh wow. Good luck with this, I don’t have anything productive to add, but has this been happening for longer than just covid? My wife and I talked a while ago and came to the conclusion that if one of us was radically politically opposed (aka voted for trump) the other would have been fully justified and EXPECTED to initiate divorce. Radical differences in opinion politically do not allow for a healthy marriage in a situation where one side is extremely selfish and self centered, while the other wants to help everyone as much as possible and therefore wants to compromise. This doesn’t seem like it would have come out of nowhere.
Not getting the vaccine is another thing we agreed would have been divorce worthy, due to the danger of transmitting to others, our kids, or even dying ourselves leaving the other spouse to fend alone.
It would be different if you DIDNT have kids- but you have to take their health and well-being into account here. They do make disputes messier and more difficult to resolve though.
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You call it a “gut feeling intuition type of decision,” but it’s not. They are beliefs she is encountering on social media, not something she has concluded on her own. Given that they are medical concerns, you need to counter them with medical knowledge, preferably by experts. Can you schedule consultations with geneticists and fertility doctors? It might be expensive, but cheaper than a divorce or ongoing marital strife. If you present it as “let’s get professional opinions about your concerns because I understand you’re worried” versus “let’s get doctors to prove that you’re wrong” she may go along with it. If she holds to her beliefs afterwards, then you have some serious thinking to do. Have your kids received the age appropriate immunizations so far and what will you do if she decides she doesn’t want them to get them in future? I agree that it would be hard not to distrust her logical reasoning ability and you have to think about what this might mean for your family life going forward.
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Yowser. I'm very left of center (ie not particularly happy with Biden), but I can't imagine an expectation that I would initiate divorce based on who my spouse voted for. That's an extreme and irrational stance (in my own personal opinion).
OP, it appears that given your wife's need to confront people with her political conspiracy theories, there is something else afoot. Anxiety, depression? Mixed with religious convictions. Couples therapy seems like great first step because you both need help dealing with this conflict more than you can hope to change her mind (although hopefully her mind can be changed).
Even if you divorce, I don't see a family court forcing her to get vaccinated, so if your primary motivation is to protect the kids from covid, that ain't it. Plus they may be eligible for the vaccine before anything could be accomplished legally. You can get your kids vaccinated when they are eligible. I think an ongoing pandemic is an unwise time to make life changing decisions for your family, as has been suggested here, but I fully understand your concerns.
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I'm sorry for this situation.
I think being a stay at home mom with two small children is a hard row to hoe. I hope your wife has regular social contact with other adults other than you, and preferably for some of that time doesn't have the kids with her. As you both seem to have a strong religious faith that should be a good community to build outwards from with personal connections.
One thing that I don't think has been suggested yet is both of you agreeing to delete some or all of your social media, or at least to curate them to remove the news feeds and any "friends" who aren't also friends in real life. This might be something to discuss with the therapist though, it certainly isn't something you can impose - and it would probably work better with an expanded off-line life to replace the on-line stuff.
On the issue of respect, I hope it is possible for you to think "I don't respect anti-vax views but our human nature makes us vulnerable to the advertising and media industries, and the informational rabbit hole on this has taken in many tens of millions of other people in the same way."
Are you planning to have more children? This is obviously a very bad time for your wife to get pregnant, not least because of the high risk of covid to unvaccinated pregnant women. It would be very reasonable for you to say that you aren't prepared to risk your current children losing their mother to an unvaccinated pregnancy while the pandemic is in progress.
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How do you even pick a therapist in this situation. I mean as polarizing as this topic is today I'm sure you can easily find one to support both of your views. How will your wife handle a therapist who is pro vaccine. Probably about as good as you'd handle one anti vax.
The therapist's personal views on vaccines won't matter if the therapist is even halfway competent. This isn't an issue, a properly trained, ethical therapist is equipped to deal with literally any conflict from a non judgemental position. Being non judgemental is the cornerstone of therapy. That said, being non judgemental is also the hardest part of the job, and a lot of therapists fail. I think it's especially hard for the faith-based therapists, because so much judgement is built in to a lot of sects of various religions.
It still stands though, that a properly trained therapist should be able to provide marital counselling without taking sides, period.
Now to OP:
As other have pointed out, your issue isn't the vaccine, the vaccine is simply the conflict that is revealing the underlying fractures in your marriage. Your marriage was always vulnerable to this form of conflict, and covid has revealed how deep the conflict goes.
Try to conceptualize the vaccine as the thing that's revealing the problem, and not the problem in and of itself. From there, put your energy towards trying to understand what the problem actually is.
You talk about feeling embarrassed by her. Why? What exactly about her behaviour is making you embarrassed. Ignore the subject matter, and focus on what it is about her that is driving her to behave in a way that you can't respect. What about her made her capable of behaving in a way that embarrasses you?
You feel emotionally manipulated. Has she always reacted this way in conflict? Have you ever felt like you can trust her with your vulnerability in a conflict? What would you need in order to feel safe when in conflict with her? What do you think drives her behaviour? What does she need to feel safe in a conflict?
How invested is she in resolving this? From the sounds of it, there are some significant emotional maladaptations going on here. Is she willing to seek individual counselling as well as marriage counselling? Because marriage counselling can only address a conflict between you, it is useless for addressing internal issues that she or you might have. So if there are underlying individual problems driving conflict issues, then those need to be addressed in parallel with the marriage counselling.
In fact, if I get *any* sense that the individuals need work, I recommend solo therapy *before* couples counselling.
Again, I repeat, try not to let the content of the conflict distract you. You're focused on it because you have a timeline to get the vaccine. Well, at the end of the day, that's not the issue. Get the vaccine if you need to, her feelings will be hurt, and you will add that to the shit that you need to deal with in therapy.
It's only in your head that you think this isn't solvable. But what you are actually seeing is that this isn't solvable without more conflict. You can't avoid this getting worse. If you just accept that simple fact, then what to do about the vaccine is quite simple. Remember, the vaccine isn't the issue, the structural marital problem beneath it is. The vaccine is just revealing how warped the underlying structure is.
So don't worry too much about the vaccine. It's your body, it's your career, there's no question that you should get it. The fact that doing so is going to cause a massive blow up isn't necessarily a bad thing. It's unpleasant, but it isn't necessarily bad.
You can't find a peaceful way to resolve this because there is no peaceful way to resolve it. The dysfunction won't allow it. And the dysfunction isn't going to be magically healed in time for you to get your vaccine. So worsening conflict is the only natural outcome. The sooner you accept that, the sooner you can move forward with figuring out how you want to handle it.
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I don't know if this would help, but what about doing a social media fast as a family? That way, it doesn't need to be about her, or about a particular issue. You can frame it around "having grown apart" or "being more distracted" or whatever, and then do some amount of time with no social media.
I could be way off base, but I tend to blame social media with stuff like this. I'm no expert (I have a LinkedIn I never check and that's it) but in my life, the folks who have these types of aggressive non-evidence based opinions tend get their "information" from social media.
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Your whole post sounds very condescending toward your wife. I'm not surprised she picks up on it.
You need to learn to respect her opinions and feelings, no matter how wrong you think she is. You will face far greater challenges than this in your marriage.
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Oh my goodness. I feel for you both.
Her, because I know how easy it is to get drawn into conspiracy theories with the media whipping up the masses into a frenzy of fear especially if you are at home and listen to those rantings on TV or FB over and over again. It becomes reality in your mind unless you can distance yourself and rationalize with a clear head before you become a mindless follower.
Critical thinking and a healthy dose of skepticism is not inherent in all of us or we may be in a vulnerable frame of mind and therefore more susceptible to influence.
It is hard to stay immune (no pun intended) to highly sophisticated, highly paid, professional fear-mongers who will not hesitate to lie and provide false evidence. When you think about it they are a little like the false prophets the Bible talks about. There is a reason the most 'successful' social media personalities are called "influencers".
I don't know how therapy would help, but deep entrenchment on both sides suggests a line in the sand, other, potentially deeper issues that were never addressed and have grown out of proportion, poor communication, not a good sign.
I am sad for you to find yourself in this ridiculous practically government-sanctioned fight. Remain calm and rational this will eventually blow over. I have heard of websites and organizations dedicated to solving dilemmas like yours, started by people who once were committed believers to help others see the deception. You both need support and help to communicate and move forward.
You are not the only one dealing with this politically driven divide forcing familial divides across the nation. It is highly disturbing to see friends and family stop talking and distance themselves from one another.
The problem is this causes death and fatherless or motherless children.
PS - glad to see Malcat's questions that bypass the obvious but misleading conflict at hand and point to deeper contentious issues that need to be acknowledged and discussed. You said you were not interested in divorce, well in that case, find the courage to talk openly about everything with each other. A professional where your wife can talk without feeling challenged - just being listened to and her fears allayed and acknowledged for what they are - the need and urge to protect herself and her unborn children. A place where both your current perspectives can be voiced and analyzed, not judged or disrespected or swept aside - that would be a good start.
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That's tough, for sure. For the long term, you do need to be trying to uncover what is driving your disagreements. But for the near term, I think there are a couple of things that might help you to deal with these issues with less acrimony.
1- Go on an information diet. Try not to dwell on covid. Try not to be outraged.
2- Harmonize your information sources. Where is her information coming from? Where is your information coming from? Try to limit is (see #1), and then try to incorporate the information sources of the other into your "diet." Discuss.
3- Be critical information consumers. I think that to be anti-vax, you have to be willing to discount multiple media sources saying, "get the vaccine." But, can your wife devote the same degree of skepticism to her alternative media sources? Praise her skepticism, and encourage her to use it for ALL her information sources.
4- Don't use or consume inflammatory language. I mean, we've seen it in responses so far to this thread, too... the sort of "this is life and death, if she doesn't get the vaccine she's gonna DIE and leave the kids motherless." Well, yes, it CAN be a life and death decision, and it is an important decision... but try to look at the numbers together. Try to find common ground. In your age group, covid is NOT the leading cause of death, whether vaccinated or un-vaccinated. Same for your kids. See if you can find sources for the numbers that you can both agree on.
And, this is slightly in contravention to #1, but maybe it could be worth it to take a deep dive into the vaccines themselves- how they were developed, how they differ, how they were funded. This could just lead you to the areas where she might things are being covered up, but on the other hand, maybe it could be that she'd come to the conclusion that she wouldn't accept the Pfizer vaccine but maybe the Moderna would be OK? Or vice versa. Just a thought...
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Your whole post sounds very condescending toward your wife. I'm not surprised she picks up on it.
You need to learn to respect her opinions and feelings, no matter how wrong you think she is. You will face far greater challenges than this in your marriage.
I guess I'll ask you the same question I ask her. What can you point to that shows condescension and what is a better approach?
I am genuinely feeling as though my wife's exhortation for us to "work together" when facing big issues is simply a subconscious euphemism for us to take the path she feels is best. Because no matter how respectful, patient, and willing to listen I am the moment I will gently question the premise or present my views I will, sooner or later, get a comment like "well I guess you've made up your mind" or "you always talk like your understanding is the only understanding."
So I walk away from the conversation feeling as though the only thing that would make her feel heard and respected is more or less agreement. Perhaps you can share some techniques to disagree firmly and respectfully.
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Ugh, what a situation. If it was parents or friends you could just get the vaccine and not talk about it, but hiding things from a spouse is tricky.
The Facts
First things first. There is precisely ZERO evidence of people becoming infertile due to any of the COVID, flu, MMR, DTAP, polio, etc. vaccines we take all the time. There is LOTS of evidence that people who get COVID can have long-term health issues, including possibly permanent heart/lung/kidney/brain damage, etc. You are factually correct in wanting to get vaccinated. There are a lot of people getting medical advice from rap stars, politicians(!), clickbait, and YouTubers who get paid per ad view and that's the root cause why thousands of people are dying per day and hundreds of thousands are getting infected. Get your info from doctors and scientists, not entertainers. The CDC has info about fertility in particular: https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/planning-for-pregnancy.html (https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/planning-for-pregnancy.html)
The Standoff
That said, it sounds like you've each become defensively dug in on the issue. Your wife can't look at the legitimate evidence and say "oh, guess I was incorrect" without fear of losing respect and status in the relationship. Maybe if she admitted being wrong, that would tilt the relationship in the direction of you being the decision maker? Would you hold this decision over her as an example of a time she was wrong in the past? Are you a power-sensitive couple with domineering habits?
You may be able to bargain by trading another decision for this one. E.g. DW wants a newer car but you think the old one is fine, so trade the car decision for the vaccination decision. That way you each retain your decision-making power status, and you've set an example of diplomatic negotiation that could be used down the road.
Boundaries
My last thought is boundaries. To what extent does one member of a relationship get to make medical decisions for the other? What if the decision could mean hospitalization, long-term disability, or death? One way to split the difference would be to say "we'll each make our own medical decisions regarding the vaccine for our own bodies, and that way we don't have to fight about what each other does." But this is unlikely to be satisfactory, because if you each think the other has taken a deadly risk then you'll each think the other lacks commitment to this family project. Yet that might be the best you can do. At some point, you have to take care of yourself regardless of what your spouse is doing. When COVID eventually runs through your house, as it will, having one person still standing could make the difference.
Everyone Off The Fucking Internet!
If you're serious about the relationship, you'll be in counseling by next week. It's a cheap, effective, and relatively easy way to avoid familial destruction. Get expert assistance with resolving the problem. Don't just take the word of a bunch of random people on the internet. That would be as bad as getting medical advice from TikTok ("eat mentos and then quickly drink a Dr. Pepper to cure COVID!" etc). See if you can pull each other off the internet and into real life - that's where your connection is. A lower-information diet might save one of your lives.
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Your whole post sounds very condescending toward your wife. I'm not surprised she picks up on it.
You need to learn to respect her opinions and feelings, no matter how wrong you think she is. You will face far greater challenges than this in your marriage.
I guess I'll ask you the same question I ask her. What can you point to that shows condescension and what is a better approach?
I am genuinely feeling as though my wife's exhortation for us to "work together" when facing big issues is simply a subconscious euphemism for us to take the path she feels is best. Because no matter how respectful, patient, and willing to listen I am the moment I will gently question the premise or present my views I will, sooner or later, get a comment like "well I guess you've made up your mind" or "you always talk like your understanding is the only understanding."
So I walk away from the conversation feeling as though the only thing that would make her feel heard and respected is more or less agreement. Perhaps you can share some techniques to disagree firmly and respectfully.
It sounds like you have made up your mind. If she is making you uncomfortable around your family, it's fair to say "no political talk, please, or I will be cutting the visit short because that's not pleasant for me." You can disagree without trying to convince her that her position is incorrect.
It's not helpful to continue talking about the vaccine. Get it and make an appointment with a therapist.
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How do you even pick a therapist in this situation. I mean as polarizing as this topic is today I'm sure you can easily find one to support both of your views. How will your wife handle a therapist who is pro vaccine. Probably about as good as you'd handle one anti vax.
The therapist's personal views on vaccines won't matter if the therapist is even halfway competent. This isn't an issue, a properly trained, ethical therapist is equipped to deal with literally any conflict from a non judgemental position. Being non judgemental is the cornerstone of therapy. That said, being non judgemental is also the hardest part of the job, and a lot of therapists fail. I think it's especially hard for the faith-based therapists, because so much judgement is built in to a lot of sects of various religions.
It still stands though, that a properly trained therapist should be able to provide marital counselling without taking sides, period.
Now to OP:
As other have pointed out, your issue isn't the vaccine, the vaccine is simply the conflict that is revealing the underlying fractures in your marriage. Your marriage was always vulnerable to this form of conflict, and covid has revealed how deep the conflict goes.
Try to conceptualize the vaccine as the thing that's revealing the problem, and not the problem in and of itself. From there, put your energy towards trying to understand what the problem actually is.
You talk about feeling embarrassed by her. Why? What exactly about her behaviour is making you embarrassed. Ignore the subject matter, and focus on what it is about her that is driving her to behave in a way that you can't respect. What about her made her capable of behaving in a way that embarrasses you?
You feel emotionally manipulated. Has she always reacted this way in conflict? Have you ever felt like you can trust her with your vulnerability in a conflict? What would you need in order to feel safe when in conflict with her? What do you think drives her behaviour? What does she need to feel safe in a conflict?
How invested is she in resolving this? From the sounds of it, there are some significant emotional maladaptations going on here. Is she willing to seek individual counselling as well as marriage counselling? Because marriage counselling can only address a conflict between you, it is useless for addressing internal issues that she or you might have. So if there are underlying individual problems driving conflict issues, then those need to be addressed in parallel with the marriage counselling.
In fact, if I get *any* sense that the individuals need work, I recommend solo therapy *before* couples counselling.
Again, I repeat, try not to let the content of the conflict distract you. You're focused on it because you have a timeline to get the vaccine. Well, at the end of the day, that's not the issue. Get the vaccine if you need to, her feelings will be hurt, and you will add that to the shit that you need to deal with in therapy.
It's only in your head that you think this isn't solvable. But what you are actually seeing is that this isn't solvable without more conflict. You can't avoid this getting worse. If you just accept that simple fact, then what to do about the vaccine is quite simple. Remember, the vaccine isn't the issue, the structural marital problem beneath it is. The vaccine is just revealing how warped the underlying structure is.
So don't worry too much about the vaccine. It's your body, it's your career, there's no question that you should get it. The fact that doing so is going to cause a massive blow up isn't necessarily a bad thing. It's unpleasant, but it isn't necessarily bad.
You can't find a peaceful way to resolve this because there is no peaceful way to resolve it. The dysfunction won't allow it. And the dysfunction isn't going to be magically healed in time for you to get your vaccine. So worsening conflict is the only natural outcome. The sooner you accept that, the sooner you can move forward with figuring out how you want to handle it.
Wow, thanks for a solid chunk of good advice here. I guess I'll share more detail here to keep things easy.
I agree that the vaccine is simply the thing that is revealing we have different ways of arriving at truth when it comes to making big decisions. We just simply didn't have any big decisions before. A few years ago she insisted that I keep the modem/router out of the bedroom, even though it meant a little bit of rewiring. Fine by me, I don't think wifi is harmful but there's no cost to moving a router.
However many of these things have been popping up lately. She wanted to get a no trespassing sign when Biden announced people might canvas neighborhoods about vaccination. Eh, not my favorite look or vibe of neighborliness but not the hill I'll die on. Still, if there's something I'm not comfortable with I will mention how I feel about it even if I compromise. Recently she has been talking about moving to a state like Texas, Florida, or some other red state to be proactive about escaping the tyranny she feels is on the horizon. Some here know we live in MN. We have an amazing parish we live very close to and have a great little Catholic community we are very involved in. Plus my family is here. But recently her IL based brother got pressure to get vaxxed by his employer and recently got a job in TX and will be moving soon. So she has some feelings of wishing that were her family. She has other family members she is close to that have the same views and ones that are even more intense.
About her family. She's not a citizen yet. She was born in Nicaragua during the socialist Sandinista era and her parents fled to Miami soon after. There is an unhealthy level of distrust and fixation when it comes to the govt, specifically democrats. There are very few actual socialists for US latin american political refugees to fixate around, so the democrats receive this as they're the next best thing. There is a sort of PTSD where many things are interpreted as signs of tyranny and dismissing these concerns is viewed as denying the validity of her parents' experience and the things they've gone through giving them a unique insight where I might not pick up on clues.
She has gone to therapy before, but it was mostly for her to overcome the trauma surrounding her C section to give her the courage to attempt a vaginal birth for her second. There was some talk of family issues, as she has occasionally fought with family members, and she mentioned therapy helped her grow in being able to better control her anger. I've never done personal therapy and my honest view is that I'm not in need of it - the obvious problem here is that she is, understandably, not a fan of being the one in the relationship that needs to change. I'm not sure what issues I would personally work on - for a while I would bottle things up and not bring them up until we had an argument, but these days I'm better bringing things up as they come. But I would be happy to attend couples therapy to develop some better communication habits which is a joint problem.
Do I feel I can trust her with my vulnerability during a conflict? I guess the answer is no. To do so I would need us to have quite a few arguments in a row where she did not bring up past events. I would need to see more restraint during arguments where things we generally agree are not helpful to bring up and not brought up. She will tend to lash out if she feels hurt and I will not usually be too affected as the insults or hurtful comments she makes rarely ring very true and are fairly easy to understand simply as lashing out. But it does make me very hesitant to offer any vulnerability. This is enlightening. Thanks again.
Regarding what embarrasses me, I guess part of the reason I married her is because I believed her to be intelligent, considerate, and reasonable. And she is. Perhaps her us vs them worldview is what made her capable of accepting the validity of these fertility whataboutisms to occupy a mental space that should be reserved for evidence-based concerns. Cnce we get deep enough into the discussion there are signs a paranoid worldview is behind this as well - well encapsulated by the idea that this vaccine and its corresponding passports *might* be the mark of the beast mentioned in the book of revelation.
We are Catholics, and one of the benefits of our oppressive, centralized Church is that we don't leave willy nilly scripture interpretation up to the unwashed masses. HOWEVER. There is an embarrassingly strong strain of right wing Catholic populism active right now, with figures like Vigano and Altman leading the charge in decrying the corruption in the Vatican and insisting the true path for the faithful is more or less the inverse of whatever secular authorities are promoting. Catholic moral theology as enshrined by Thomas Aquinas and Alphonsus Ligouri supports the common good practice of getting vaccines, and the Church put out authoritative documents saying even though some of the cell lines used to test the vaccines came from elective abortions that Catholics should (but are not morally obligated to) get vaccinated. But many influential Catholics view abortion as bigger than our tradition of moral theology and there should be no cooperation with it at all.
Sorry to get into the weeds.
Regarding her willingness to resolve this, she is willing to go 1000% into masking and scrimping and supplementing and distancing if it means I don't get vaccinated. But she has mentioned multiple times she doesn't see a way forward for us if I get it and has mentioned separation a few times in the heat of the argument. It's really hard to know when she means it and when she doesn't. But she wants to stay married too, and views it sort of like why would I throw our marriage and family life into chaos over a vaccine for a disease that my chances of dying from are like 1 in 25,000. Of course I reject that premise for reasons mentioned above, she chooses how she feels etc. So naturally I know quite well that it wouldn't be much of a marriage to save if I simply go with her suggested path. The dynamic would be that whoever feels the strongest about something would get their way - and I'm happy to do that until real world consequences are involved.
I guess that's why I say I am not sure how well we'll survive this - because I'm not the one who will be left disappointed by my decision. I might be disappointed by her behavior after the fact but I'll have been the one who charted our course.
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Your whole post sounds very condescending toward your wife. I'm not surprised she picks up on it.
You need to learn to respect her opinions and feelings, no matter how wrong you think she is. You will face far greater challenges than this in your marriage.
I guess I'll ask you the same question I ask her. What can you point to that shows condescension and what is a better approach?
I am genuinely feeling as though my wife's exhortation for us to "work together" when facing big issues is simply a subconscious euphemism for us to take the path she feels is best. Because no matter how respectful, patient, and willing to listen I am the moment I will gently question the premise or present my views I will, sooner or later, get a comment like "well I guess you've made up your mind" or "you always talk like your understanding is the only understanding."
So I walk away from the conversation feeling as though the only thing that would make her feel heard and respected is more or less agreement. Perhaps you can share some techniques to disagree firmly and respectfully.
It sounds like you have made up your mind. If she is making you uncomfortable around your family, it's fair to say "no political talk, please, or I will be cutting the visit short because that's not pleasant for me." You can disagree without trying to convince her that her position is incorrect.
It's not helpful to continue talking about the vaccine. Get it and make an appointment with a therapist.
It sounds like he has made up his mind about the vaccine, but my understanding is the concern is communication in general. How does he keep the conflict to a minimum in this specific situation, and how does he help her feel heard and loved without agreeing with her?
To OP: I have people in my life who I love that process information and conflicts in the way you describe. Thankfully my spouse is not one of them. Perhaps it is my personal bias, but I disagree with some of these posts/conventional wisdom that "there are two sides to this" or "the problem is both of you need to come together". If she can't have a discussion/disagreement without throwing a fit and saying you don't respect or love her, that's a huge problem. That is not something YOU can solve for her. It is perhaps something you can deal with better though.
Please do seek therapy, both individually and together. As Malcat pointed out, you cannot keep this decision from causing conflict, but conflict is not bad in and of itself. You do need to find healthier ways to discuss problems and make decisions as a team. It sounds like part of that is finding ways to say no to her or deal with her being unreasonable.
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I would go to solo counseling for now.
You won't necessarily find a therapist that "works" for you right away, so keep trying.
You want someone that will listen to you and challenge you, it's not always easy, but it's helpful to you to have the undivided attention of an expert (hopefully!) while you rant away. It will help to solidify your own thoughts and feelings without the extra emotional turmoil of the current situation with your spouse, with her sitting right there.
FWIW, I've seen six different therapists over the years, three men and three women, and I had the best results with one of the women and one of the men. Two of them I saw once and that was it (bad fit).
One of the women was a relationship counselor we saw when going through a difficult time with my current partner. The relationship survived, but the counseling relationship did not. I felt that my partner bonded so strongly with the counselor it left me the "odd man out" (I am kinda an odd man, so...). The counselor let slip that she was going through her own issues with her own husband (who was "so like me") so that didn't help. But it was still helpful overall, in that it increased our ability to communicate.
Also, all of this happened after my relationship with my wife hit the skids. We divorced when my daughter was four. It was difficult but we turned it around and developed a very positive co-parenting relationship that was good for all of us.
Edit: I just read your post above. Wow. Be careful. I would be very concerned that she's going to run off with the kids to escape your "tyranny". You might need to skip the marriage counselor and head right to the lawyer.
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I thought I remembered that you and your spouse had another big marital disagreement in the past so I looked back at your history and saw the thread about you leaving the faith spiritually while remaining a part of it culturally. Is that still the case? How did you resolve that with your wife? Because that is a pretty big marital disagreement in terms of values and if you were able to come to a shared understanding about that issue it may provide guidance as to how to approach this one.
Just one more thing: threatening divorce or separation to get your partner to behave the way you want is not okay. It is not okay that you’re wife has done that repeatedly. I imagine you likely know that yet I think it is important to impress on you how dysfunctional that behavior is on her part. She really needs individual therapy to address some of these maladaptive behaviors.
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OP, I think you have a serious problem if you think THIS is the insurmountable fork in the road. I wouldn't dream of divorcing DH over this, and I dont even have children to raise. It just isnt that big of a deal. Your REAL problem surrounding the Covid vaccine will come when your children are eligible for vaccine. You may need counseling to work through that one.
But how would you feel if your DH was ready to go nuclear about you getting it?
I'm happy to stay out of her decision to get it or not. My belief is that her behavior towards me is controlling in an extremely unhealthy way and I have said as much. I know you're not supposed to use therapy for this, but I'd be lying if I said I wasn't interested in some 3rd party validation on that one. I'd really like it if a trusted friend of hers would weigh in on this. I've asked her if she's asked her friends about it, and she says she has - but her line of inquiry is usually more along the lines of how they feel about the mandate, the messaging, the corruption and capture in the federal agencies etc and little to nothing about the ultimatum (that she backed off of) about me getting it.
We talked to our priest and he wisely avoided playing the referee, mostly encouraging us to love and support each other, walk together, and focus on Jesus. Unfortunately when she told him about her brother's move to Texas his comments were "well that is heroic but it is good for families not to move too much or they never put down roots." He also threw me an unusable bone by saying that he had noticed when families did what the women wanted to do and the men just went along with it that the men became effeminate. LOL. I can't work with that. I can't seriously argue to my wife that I have to get my way or I'll become effeminate and she wouldn't want that either. He's from Peru BTW and speaks freely. He got vaxxed after some initial hesitation but realized being a priest means he'll be constantly around others. He said if you can avoid it, avoid it. But get it if you must. The problem here is my wife sees me as being willing and able to find some decent paying job at a company with less than 100 employees that doesn't care if I'm vaxxed very soon. We have some savings, like 20k or so, but it's for real emergencies and not self-inflicted ones, and I would probably be taking like a 30-50% pay cut to take my not-very-transferable skills elsewhere assuming I could quickly find another job.
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I thought I remembered that you and your spouse had another big marital disagreement in the past so I looked back at your history and saw the thread about you leaving the faith spiritually while remaining a part of it culturally. Is that still the case? How did you resolve that with your wife? Because that is a pretty big marital disagreement in terms of values and if you were able to come to a shared understanding about that issue it may provide guidance as to how to approach this one.
Just one more thing: threatening divorce or separation to get your partner to behave the way you want is not okay. It is not okay that you’re wife has done that repeatedly. I imagine you likely know that yet I think it is important to impress on you how dysfunctional that behavior is on her part. She really needs individual therapy to address some of these maladaptive behaviors.
That factors into it a little bit. I have come back into the faith and have written a bit about it - I think I'll resurrect that thread and share the follow up.
She has shared that she felt I was alone on my faith journey and often feels I operate on my own in general when it comes thinking about the big things. We are trying to participate in our faith together more now. But the feeling I get, and part of why I mentioned to Malcat that I don't feel comfortable being vulnerable during conflict with her, is that she views this period of doubt as a sign of my spiritual unreliability and that she must be the spiritual leader of the family.
But yeah, if I mention her unhealthy behaviors to her, she begins to resent the idea that she's the problem in the relationship and tells me I never self reflect. Then I ask her what I should reflect on, and don't really get anything I can work with, except things like how I didn't "have her back" when my sister in law expressed surprise that she was not an American citizen and she took this as a microaggression (which she now looks back on with regret as she processed this in a way she later came to understand as overly sensitive - but my betrayal remains, even if her initial judgment does not).
Probably not the right move to insist on telling someone they're the problem and they need to work on themselves, so I'm hoping that by doing couples therapy we can address some of this. And yeah, I'm happy to work on my stuff too.
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OP, I think you have a serious problem if you think THIS is the insurmountable fork in the road. I wouldn't dream of divorcing DH over this, and I dont even have children to raise. It just isnt that big of a deal. Your REAL problem surrounding the Covid vaccine will come when your children are eligible for vaccine. You may need counseling to work through that one.
But how would you feel if your DH was ready to go nuclear about you getting it?
I'm happy to stay out of her decision to get it or not. My belief is that her behavior towards me is controlling in an extremely unhealthy way and I have said as much. I know you're not supposed to use therapy for this, but I'd be lying if I said I wasn't interested in some 3rd party validation on that one. I'd really like it if a trusted friend of hers would weigh in on this. I've asked her if she's asked her friends about it, and she says she has - but her line of inquiry is usually more along the lines of how they feel about the mandate, the messaging, the corruption and capture in the federal agencies etc and little to nothing about the ultimatum (that she backed off of) about me getting it.
We talked to our priest and he wisely avoided playing the referee, mostly encouraging us to love and support each other, walk together, and focus on Jesus. Unfortunately when she told him about her brother's move to Texas his comments were "well that is heroic but it is good for families not to move too much or they never put down roots." He also threw me an unusable bone by saying that he had noticed when families did what the women wanted to do and the men just went along with it that the men became effeminate. LOL. I can't work with that. I can't seriously argue to my wife that I have to get my way or I'll become effeminate and she wouldn't want that either. He's from Peru BTW and speaks freely. He got vaxxed after some initial hesitation but realized being a priest means he'll be constantly around others. He said if you can avoid it, avoid it. But get it if you must. The problem here is my wife sees me as being willing and able to find some decent paying job at a company with less than 100 employees that doesn't care if I'm vaxxed very soon. We have some savings, like 20k or so, but it's for real emergencies and not self-inflicted ones, and I would probably be taking like a 30-50% pay cut to take my not-very-transferable skills elsewhere assuming I could quickly find another job.
WTF, just WTF.
if i were you, i would get the vaccine, if she goes nuclear - take the kids and get a divorce. The whole situation is terrible, but think of your health and that of your kids.
Or listen to Malcat
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Oh wow, I feel for you. What a tough spot to be in. I agree with others that you need to both get into counseling immediately. The vaccine question merely unearthed what sounds like a big pile of issues you’ve got collecting under the rug.
From my outside perspective it sounds like you having values that don’t line up, which is huge. I also wonder if your wife may be struggling with depression without realizing it? It took me quite a while to realize in myself that after each baby I went through an incredibly tough time that was PPD that lasted over a year in each case. My youngest is 2 so for those who can do math, you realize his babyhood intersected with Covid. I happened to FIRE just as the Covid shutdown hit so what was supposed to be a rejuvenating time for me became something like hell being locked at home with little kids 24/7.
Some people do great being stay at home parents. Maybe your wife is one of them. I am very much not. The difficulty of having a baby and being at home combined with the isolation and constant stress of Covid did a real number on my mental health. It was tough on me and my husband and the kids. And my husband and I are aligned value-wise.
In my parents I saw the isolation and worry lead them to consuming a lot of media and that got them riled up. It negatively impacted their lives and that was just consuming fact-based reality media. I imagine a diet of conspiracy theory junk food media would be even worse for the mental health. In their case they left the country and now spend their time hiking in beautiful outdoor nature instead of locked up reading about political messes. Those changes have been transformative for them and they are happy, optimistic people again.
That is my long way of saying that it may be helpful for your wife to consider something productive outside the home to get her mind engaged elsewhere. That could help combat the isolation and worry and leave little time for a diet of junk and lies.
But definitely get counseling. Good luck.
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@J Boogie This is a rough spot and I don't envy you.
This isn't worth blowing up your marriage or your job over. A couple years from now this will look like a conflict over whether you should build a bunker for Y2K. The whole thing will just pass and nobody will want to admit how emotionally invested they were in it.
There is a compromise to be had here by changing the terms of the engagement. Right now you're framing it as a dichotomous (vax/no vax) situation, which is a zero sum game. You need to find a way to introduce other competing values and interests to allow both of you to come out of your corners while saving face.
From what you say and what I can infer, your wife has two identities and values. The first is the internet conspiracy theorist. My guess is this is relatively new. She's enthusiastic about it, but it's not that deeply rooted. The second is as a Catholic housewife who supports her family and wants them to thrive. My guess is that this is the hard core of her identity, and you can lean on it to find a compromise.
If it were me, I'd start by acknowledging that there's a risk to taking a vaccine. The extent of that risk is immaterial. You think it's small, she thinks it's big. Resist the urge to litigate this point. And then, if it were me, I'd say that men have long taken bigger risks to provide for their families. They've worked in coal mines. They've joined the infantry. They've gone fishing offshore. By taking a risk to provide for your family, you're demonstrating how much you love them and want them to have everything they need. And this is a business decision you're making because it simply must be done to head off really bad consequences.
That's the best I've got. Good luck. You'll find a way through this.
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The fact you don't think you have anything to work on, just her, as you've stated repeatedly, but she doesn't think that you have her back, is a bit of a red flag. The least you could do is start solo therapy, first as a gesture of your willingness to put in the same work that you'd like her to do. If nothing else, it may help you clarify what you need to continue this relationship and decide how to move forward, whether it's together or apart.
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On thé risk discussion, it is true there are risks with the vaccines. If it is helpful (and I suspect it wouldn’t be because you can have a rational discussion with an irrational person) compare the risks side by side.
What are the known risks of the vaccines? What are the known risks of Covid? How likely are you to have death or negative side effects from both?
The thing to keep in mind is that the two choices are Covid vaccine or Covid. The way things have spiraled so totally out of control in the US there is no third option of avoiding getting sick if you live in society and have a life span over a couple of years.
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The fact you don't think you have anything to work on, just her, as you've stated repeatedly, but she doesn't think that you have her back, is a bit of a red flag. The least you could do is start solo therapy, first as a gesture of your willingness to put in the same work that you'd like her to do. If nothing else, it may help you clarify what you need to continue this relationship and decide how to move forward, whether it's together or apart.
Ding ding!
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Wow, thanks for a solid chunk of good advice here. I guess I'll share more detail here to keep things easy.
I agree that the vaccine is simply the thing that is revealing we have different ways of arriving at truth when it comes to making big decisions. We just simply didn't have any big decisions before. A few years ago she insisted that I keep the modem/router out of the bedroom, even though it meant a little bit of rewiring. Fine by me, I don't think wifi is harmful but there's no cost to moving a router.
However many of these things have been popping up lately. She wanted to get a no trespassing sign when Biden announced people might canvas neighborhoods about vaccination. Eh, not my favorite look or vibe of neighborliness but not the hill I'll die on. Still, if there's something I'm not comfortable with I will mention how I feel about it even if I compromise. Recently she has been talking about moving to a state like Texas, Florida, or some other red state to be proactive about escaping the tyranny she feels is on the horizon. Some here know we live in MN. We have an amazing parish we live very close to and have a great little Catholic community we are very involved in. Plus my family is here. But recently her IL based brother got pressure to get vaxxed by his employer and recently got a job in TX and will be moving soon. So she has some feelings of wishing that were her family. She has other family members she is close to that have the same views and ones that are even more intense.
About her family. She's not a citizen yet. She was born in Nicaragua during the socialist Sandinista era and her parents fled to Miami soon after. There is an unhealthy level of distrust and fixation when it comes to the govt, specifically democrats. There are very few actual socialists for US latin american political refugees to fixate around, so the democrats receive this as they're the next best thing. There is a sort of PTSD where many things are interpreted as signs of tyranny and dismissing these concerns is viewed as denying the validity of her parents' experience and the things they've gone through giving them a unique insight where I might not pick up on clues.
She has gone to therapy before, but it was mostly for her to overcome the trauma surrounding her C section to give her the courage to attempt a vaginal birth for her second. There was some talk of family issues, as she has occasionally fought with family members, and she mentioned therapy helped her grow in being able to better control her anger. I've never done personal therapy and my honest view is that I'm not in need of it - the obvious problem here is that she is, understandably, not a fan of being the one in the relationship that needs to change. I'm not sure what issues I would personally work on - for a while I would bottle things up and not bring them up until we had an argument, but these days I'm better bringing things up as they come. But I would be happy to attend couples therapy to develop some better communication habits which is a joint problem.
Do I feel I can trust her with my vulnerability during a conflict? I guess the answer is no. To do so I would need us to have quite a few arguments in a row where she did not bring up past events. I would need to see more restraint during arguments where things we generally agree are not helpful to bring up and not brought up. She will tend to lash out if she feels hurt and I will not usually be too affected as the insults or hurtful comments she makes rarely ring very true and are fairly easy to understand simply as lashing out. But it does make me very hesitant to offer any vulnerability. This is enlightening. Thanks again.
Regarding what embarrasses me, I guess part of the reason I married her is because I believed her to be intelligent, considerate, and reasonable. And she is. Perhaps her us vs them worldview is what made her capable of accepting the validity of these fertility whataboutisms to occupy a mental space that should be reserved for evidence-based concerns. Cnce we get deep enough into the discussion there are signs a paranoid worldview is behind this as well - well encapsulated by the idea that this vaccine and its corresponding passports *might* be the mark of the beast mentioned in the book of revelation.
We are Catholics, and one of the benefits of our oppressive, centralized Church is that we don't leave willy nilly scripture interpretation up to the unwashed masses. HOWEVER. There is an embarrassingly strong strain of right wing Catholic populism active right now, with figures like Vigano and Altman leading the charge in decrying the corruption in the Vatican and insisting the true path for the faithful is more or less the inverse of whatever secular authorities are promoting. Catholic moral theology as enshrined by Thomas Aquinas and Alphonsus Ligouri supports the common good practice of getting vaccines, and the Church put out authoritative documents saying even though some of the cell lines used to test the vaccines came from elective abortions that Catholics should (but are not morally obligated to) get vaccinated. But many influential Catholics view abortion as bigger than our tradition of moral theology and there should be no cooperation with it at all.
Sorry to get into the weeds.
Regarding her willingness to resolve this, she is willing to go 1000% into masking and scrimping and supplementing and distancing if it means I don't get vaccinated. But she has mentioned multiple times she doesn't see a way forward for us if I get it and has mentioned separation a few times in the heat of the argument. It's really hard to know when she means it and when she doesn't. But she wants to stay married too, and views it sort of like why would I throw our marriage and family life into chaos over a vaccine for a disease that my chances of dying from are like 1 in 25,000. Of course I reject that premise for reasons mentioned above, she chooses how she feels etc. So naturally I know quite well that it wouldn't be much of a marriage to save if I simply go with her suggested path. The dynamic would be that whoever feels the strongest about something would get their way - and I'm happy to do that until real world consequences are involved.
I guess that's why I say I am not sure how well we'll survive this - because I'm not the one who will be left disappointed by my decision. I might be disappointed by her behavior after the fact but I'll have been the one who charted our course.
Well yeah, your marriage might not survive being tested, many marriages with fundamental fault lines don't.
You can't chart your collective course either, you can just get a vaccine that you need to get, and then she can react however her priorities and values drive her to react.
You don't have the power to control her reaction, you just don't.
Also, I want to come back to your statement that you don't need therapy and she does. I get therapy regularly and I'm what my therapist calls "remarkably mentally healthy". Therapy is a tool that I use to maintain that excellent health, especially when faced with difficult situations where I'm unsure exactly what to do.
Being mentally healthy doesn't by default make you excellent at handling conflict or difficult situations.
To me, you saying that you don't need therapy, but she does, is highly problematic. Perhaps you don't have a mental health issue and she might, but you are BOTH in a situation that is very difficult, where you could both benefit from support.
Her previous traumas and experiences may make it more challenging for her to deal with certain things emotionally, but you're both stuck in the exact same difficult marriage. This problem belongs to both of you, and yes, you both need support to get through it.
If you aren't emotionally traumatized yourself, you probably will be by the end of this if you don't seek appropriate supports along the way.
First things first though, you need to accept that things are going to get much worse even if they do ultimately get better. The sooner you accept that, the sooner you can start figuring out how you want to handle things.
If she is threatening to leave you over something that you've already decided to do (which yes, you should do and are entirely entitled to do), then yes, this very realistically could lead to the end of your marriage, but there may be nothing you can do to prevent that.
What you need to decide is what measures you are willing to take to *try* and prevent that outcome.
ETA: I also just wanted to say, anyone who feels compelled to share their deep personal marital conflict with strangers on the internet who will likely shit on them in response DEFINITELY could use a good therapist.
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Ok I'm confused. I'm happy to go to couples therapy and learn about some ways to improve myself, or go to solo therapy to learn how to deal with this situation better.
But I'm unclear on something. This just seems like semantics to me.
I shouldn't pretend that I have toxic behaviors that need to be addressed by therapy, correct? I might have some, sure, but if I do I'm unaware of them and believe it is disingenuous to carry on as though I want to "work on myself" like the fit wife telling her obese husband she wants to improve her shoddy health and would he like to work out with her.
To be clear, I haven't suggested to my wife that SHE should go to therapy alone for her toxic behavior. But I don't see the benefit in pretending to find fault in my own behavior beyond simply signaling openness to change the way I communicate etc.
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I just want to echo what Malcat said in the previous post. People often mistake 'therapy' with being psycho analysis (e.g., talk therapy where you delve into your family/history/subconscious etc). That is ONE type of therapy, but there are many other types of therapies, and some are focused around simply building awareness of habitual patterns of thought or behavior, and developing new tools and skills to better manage those. That is more what is needed here.
In general you have great sympathy from me. Several people on this thread indicated sentiments like this is 'not a big deal; wait until you have a REAL marriage conflict' or 'marriage means regular conflict and this is just more of that' etc. Having been married more than 20 years and in a relationship for more than 30, I find those kind of sentiments absolutely incredible (and often wonder just what the hell sorts of relationships people are living with). This would be a five alarm fire in my own marriage, and I would muster every possible effort to deal with it...not just hope it blows over.
First, get the shot ASAP. There's no need to tell her you got it. Your safety and your kids' safety is paramount.
Second, counseling is clearly in order here; and I agree with several posters that this appears to be a flag on more extensive problems with your communication as a couple (or possibly with her emotional health). I wonder if your wife isn't struggling with isolation or loneliness or generalized anxiety (totally understandable given the past couple years) that is latching itself onto social media or more extreme religious beliefs than normal. That is something that a good counselor should ferret out pretty quickly, but they might need individual time with your wife (or you) to do it.
I also agree that a joint effort at social media 'fasting' and also media consumption, using jointly established 'rules' of skepticism/critical thinking, might be helpful.
Good luck. Remember that as a scary as this kind of warning sign can be, it's also helpful b/c it can force us to change, learn, and grow. It took me a long time to start recognizing that a lot of the most unpleasant periods of my life taught me the most useful stuff.
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Ok I'm confused. I'm happy to go to couples therapy and learn about some ways to improve myself, or go to solo therapy to learn how to deal with this situation better.
But I'm unclear on something. This just seems like semantics to me.
I shouldn't pretend that I have toxic behaviors that need to be addressed by therapy, correct? I might have some, sure, but if I do I'm unaware of them and believe it is disingenuous to carry on as though I want to "work on myself" like the fit wife telling her obese husband she wants to improve her shoddy health and would he like to work out with her.
To be clear, I haven't suggested to my wife that SHE should go to therapy alone for her toxic behavior. But I don't see the benefit in pretending to find fault in my own behavior beyond simply signaling openness to change the way I communicate etc.
You're assuming that therapy is for fixing yourself. It isn't.
That's a HUGE problem in your thinking. Therapy is for seeking expert level help in dealing with the challenges of life.
You are absolutely dealing with a major challenge that you could use help navigating.
I don't go to therapy because I'm broken, I go to therapy because I know that everyone struggles with challenges sometimes, and therapy helps keep your thinking about those struggles in a healthy, productive space.
Even if you are perfectly mentally healthy, that doesn't mean you are amazing at making decisions or handling conflict without some guidance and support. That doesn't mean you aren't as prone to human bias and errors in judgement just like every other human being.
You wouldn't be reaching out here if you didn't need some kind of support. I guarantee you that a paid professional will be better, more appropriate support than a bunch of judgemental internet strangers.
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Ok I'm confused. I'm happy to go to couples therapy and learn about some ways to improve myself, or go to solo therapy to learn how to deal with this situation better.
But I'm unclear on something. This just seems like semantics to me.
I shouldn't pretend that I have toxic behaviors that need to be addressed by therapy, correct? I might have some, sure, but if I do I'm unaware of them and believe it is disingenuous to carry on as though I want to "work on myself" like the fit wife telling her obese husband she wants to improve her shoddy health and would he like to work out with her.
To be clear, I haven't suggested to my wife that SHE should go to therapy alone for her toxic behavior. But I don't see the benefit in pretending to find fault in my own behavior beyond simply signaling openness to change the way I communicate etc.
That is an excellent subject to discuss with your therapist.
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@J Boogie I'm going to go against the line of thinking from several folks saying that this vax discussion is a sign of something bigger/deeper that you must address or you'll never have a happy marriage.
I'd at least allow the possibility that your marriage is basically fine. Quirky, yes. But so are lots of marriages. I don't think you need to get all the quirks worked out in order to keep going.
The pandemic is a weird event that's thrown lots of good people off their game. Give the world a chance to get back to normal before excavating the faultlines in your marriage. It may turn out that those fissures sink back away from the surface in the future and become functionally unimportant.
You can have a perfectly fine marriage with someone who is very different than you, and you certainly don't need to go digging into every past disagreement and trauma to make sure you're totally aligned. All you need is a workable day-to-day relationship for doing life. It sounds like if you can get past this particular disagreement, you two can basically do normal life together going forward.
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Ok I'm confused. I'm happy to go to couples therapy and learn about some ways to improve myself, or go to solo therapy to learn how to deal with this situation better.
But I'm unclear on something. This just seems like semantics to me.
I shouldn't pretend that I have toxic behaviors that need to be addressed by therapy, correct? I might have some, sure, but if I do I'm unaware of them and believe it is disingenuous to carry on as though I want to "work on myself" like the fit wife telling her obese husband she wants to improve her shoddy health and would he like to work out with her.
To be clear, I haven't suggested to my wife that SHE should go to therapy alone for her toxic behavior. But I don't see the benefit in pretending to find fault in my own behavior beyond simply signaling openness to change the way I communicate etc.
Well, it won't do you any good to be dishonest with your therapist, but you're wrong if you think your wife's behavior toward you is independent of your behavior towards your wife, especially if the behaviors you're talking about occur during emotionally heated discussions.
You mentioned not knowing how serious she is about the line in the sand on the vaccine, well a therapist could help you raise the subject during a less heated time, or even figure out if you should raise it at all.
If you don't know what's happening in your spouses head that leads her to believe crazy theories, a therapist could help you figure out some possibilities, not to get your spouse to change, but to get you to where you can live at peace with her.
A therapist could help you prepare for and deal with any fallout from getting the vaccine without your spouse's approval (an approval which I don't see any real reason should be required in the first place).
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@J Boogie I'm going to go against the line of thinking from several folks saying that this vax discussion is a sign of something bigger/deeper that you must address or you'll never have a happy marriage.
I'd at least allow the possibility that your marriage is basically fine. Quirky, yes. But so are lots of marriages. I don't think you need to get all the quirks worked out in order to keep going.
The pandemic is a weird event that's thrown lots of good people off their game. Give the world a chance to get back to normal before excavating the faultlines in your marriage. It may turn out that those fissures sink back away from the surface in the future and become functionally unimportant.
You can have a perfectly fine marriage with someone who is very different than you, and you certainly don't need to go digging into every past disagreement and trauma to make sure you're totally aligned. All you need is a workable day-to-day relationship for doing life. It sounds like if you can get past this particular disagreement, you two can basically do normal life together going forward.
Hey man, you don't need to dust under the rug if you never look under the rug, am I right??
There's some truth to what you're saying, but there's also some irrational optimism baked into what you're saying.
The idea that we'll coalesce around our usual shared sources of trusted information after this doesn't seem guaranteed or even likely.
Sooner or later we'll have to develop some way to be as husband and wife approaching the unknown with different epistemologies. I'd rather do it sooner so our future disagreements can have something of a decision tree we've agreed to follow. Or if she simply can't feel loved by someone who won't act upon her concerns, maybe it just is what it is.
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I don't think this will go away. This particular issue might "go away", and by that you could get vaccinated & preserve your job & your health/the health of your family (which, you said in a follow up that your wife might leave you over?). But, at some point, you will need to make shared medical decisions for your children on this topic. Or, decide whether to send them to school masked, or to have high risk friends over, or what have you. Leaving COVID alone, you both need to have trust in each other's decision making. I can't imagine parenting, let alone just being married to someone where we didn't have that shared trust.
FWIW, my husband lived through a revolution in the country he grew up in, left as a teen & had to raise himself. We see the world pretty differently, and have varied political views on nearly every topic. However, we are united in our trust & judgement of things like: science, media sources, engaging respectfully with family, handling conflict, etc. We do sometimes disagree on parenting (doesn't everyone?), but we ask questions like: which of us cares most passionately about this? Will this have any significant lasting impact on the kids? Etc, as a guide. These things matter because, as teenagers, my kids are very much a part of a discussion about things like: religion, politics, science, media sources, etc. They understand we don't always agree, & as a family, we talk about how it's okay to have different opinions, but how to use critical thinking skills, and multiple sources of verification, etc to understand things. I'd really, really struggle with someone who was teaching my kids about conspiracy theories & to disregard trusted sources/science.
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@J Boogie I'm going to go against the line of thinking from several folks saying that this vax discussion is a sign of something bigger/deeper that you must address or you'll never have a happy marriage.
I'd at least allow the possibility that your marriage is basically fine. Quirky, yes. But so are lots of marriages. I don't think you need to get all the quirks worked out in order to keep going.
The pandemic is a weird event that's thrown lots of good people off their game. Give the world a chance to get back to normal before excavating the faultlines in your marriage. It may turn out that those fissures sink back away from the surface in the future and become functionally unimportant.
You can have a perfectly fine marriage with someone who is very different than you, and you certainly don't need to go digging into every past disagreement and trauma to make sure you're totally aligned. All you need is a workable day-to-day relationship for doing life. It sounds like if you can get past this particular disagreement, you two can basically do normal life together going forward.
My understanding is there are several topics where they can't have a discussion/disagreement without threats of separation or accusations of him being unsupportive/controlling/etc. Even if the discussion was just on vaccination that would be alarming to me. For multiple subjects that's just unsustainable and absolutely has to be addressed if OP wants a happy marriage/life.
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@J Boogie I'm going to go against the line of thinking from several folks saying that this vax discussion is a sign of something bigger/deeper that you must address or you'll never have a happy marriage.
I'd at least allow the possibility that your marriage is basically fine. Quirky, yes. But so are lots of marriages. I don't think you need to get all the quirks worked out in order to keep going.
The pandemic is a weird event that's thrown lots of good people off their game. Give the world a chance to get back to normal before excavating the faultlines in your marriage. It may turn out that those fissures sink back away from the surface in the future and become functionally unimportant.
You can have a perfectly fine marriage with someone who is very different than you, and you certainly don't need to go digging into every past disagreement and trauma to make sure you're totally aligned. All you need is a workable day-to-day relationship for doing life. It sounds like if you can get past this particular disagreement, you two can basically do normal life together going forward.
Healthy marriages that are going through a "quirky time" don't result in one partner threatening to leave and the other partner saying that they feel emotionally manipulated and increasingly embarrassed by their partner.
There are red flags all over this issue.
To me, I don't think the vaccination issue is even a big deal. I think the communication issues that have blown up around it are.
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So I walk away from the conversation feeling as though the only thing that would make her feel heard and respected is more or less agreement. Perhaps you can share some techniques to disagree firmly and respectfully.
Your situation is unenviable, but you've done yourself no favors along the way. You always get more of what you do. Going to the trouble to rewire your router to move it out of the bedroom because WiFi might be harmful was giving in to irrational behavior. Getting a no trespassing sign because one of the two major US political parties won was giving into irrational behavior. You can probably think of many more instances of this sort of thing that you've not bothered to stand against. Each one a small thing individually, except that it continually gave and reinforced the message that if she fought the way she fought over her irrational beliefs, she would win. Now you're in it big time and she believes, thanks to all the past evidence, that she can get you to do what she wants on this too.
I know this doesn't help you now. But you need to understand you also have a role in bringing things to this point. This isn't her being crazy. This is her executing a strategy that you've shown her time and again works. That's rational. You're the crazy one if you think that you can just undo all of that because there's a result you care about at stake now. You should've had the fight, or better yet, learned how to defuse it without capitulating, when the stakes were inconsequential.
Also know that you're going about this wrong. You can't logic somebody out of a position that they didn't logic themselves into. You're doing an admirable job with your arguments, poking holes in lines of assertion and questioning, and you're getting nowhere for it. You will not get anywhere for it. You can present all the statistics, arguments, anything you want, and it's going to fall on deaf ears.
Presumably, this is much like the argument for vaccination fell on yours. If you thought it was a good idea, you'd already have done it without your workplace mandating it. And don't think you gave into logic because of the mandate. The only thing that changed was threat of losing your job, not the facts at hand. That's not an argument. You gave into an emotion, fear. The fear of being unable to provide for your family. The fear of being unable to pursue your goals at a lower paying job.
You have a seriously narrow path to thread. You're going to have to make her feel listened to and respected while not capitulating. You're going to have to do this after reinforcing her notion that you listening to her and respecting her is just doing what she wants because that's what she wanted. Maybe you can find the emotion that's going to get her belief on this to flip, just like you flipped, if it even exists. Good luck.
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I did a word search on the many replies and didn't see this noted, excuse me if I am re-treading something:
Get the Johnson & Johnson shot. It is like a normal annual flu vaccine with no MRNA fancy schmancy technology, just a weak virus that you fight off. Just like your childhood polio and whatnot. Single shot, one and done, no worries. Maybe the Mrs. will buy into that idea.
Honestly for anyone still on the fence this is something you should grab ahold of before they decide it somehow "doesn't count." In our area most sites are not offering it any longer (I have no idea why, probably political and financial motives, the usual) so you may need to go to one of the community health sites where they are emphasizing trying to capture the low-mobility folks who are less able to easily follow up with a second shot.
I realize this doesn't address the marital discord, but these are crazy times and some extra grace toward your wife may pay off in the long run.
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So I walk away from the conversation feeling as though the only thing that would make her feel heard and respected is more or less agreement. Perhaps you can share some techniques to disagree firmly and respectfully.
Your situation is unenviable, but you've done yourself no favors along the way. You always get more of what you do. Going to the trouble to rewire your router to move it out of the bedroom because WiFi might be harmful was giving in to irrational behavior. Getting a no trespassing sign because one of the two major US political parties won was giving into irrational behavior. You can probably think of many more instances of this sort of thing that you've not bothered to stand against. Each one a small thing individually, except that it continually gave and reinforced the message that if she fought the way she fought over her irrational beliefs, she would win. Now you're in it big time and she believes, thanks to all the past evidence, that she can get you to do what she wants on this too.
I know this doesn't help you now. But you need to understand you also have a role in bringing things to this point. This isn't her being crazy. This is her executing a strategy that you've shown her time and again works. That's rational. You're the crazy one if you think that you can just undo all of that because there's a result you care about at stake now. You should've had the fight, or better yet, learned how to defuse it without capitulating, when the stakes were inconsequential.
Also know that you're going about this wrong. You can't logic somebody out of a position that they didn't logic themselves into. You're doing an admirable job with your arguments, poking holes in lines of assertion and questioning, and you're getting nowhere for it. You will not get anywhere for it. You can present all the statistics, arguments, anything you want, and it's going to fall on deaf ears.
Presumably, this is much like the argument for vaccination fell on yours. If you thought it was a good idea, you'd already have done it without your workplace mandating it. And don't think you gave into logic because of the mandate. The only thing that changed was threat of losing your job, not the facts at hand. That's not an argument. You gave into an emotion, fear. The fear of being unable to provide for your family. The fear of being unable to pursue your goals at a lower paying job.
You have a seriously narrow path to thread. You're going to have to make her feel listened to and respected while not capitulating. You're going to have to do this after reinforcing her notion that you listening to her and respecting her is just doing what she wants because that's what she wanted. Maybe you can find the emotion that's going to get her belief on this to flip, just like you flipped, if it even exists. Good luck.
Well, I shared the instances where I didn't insist upon my way because the stakes were low. But there have been plenty of times where she didn't get what she wanted and we compromised or more or less went with my way after some convincing. I have a hard time seeing a marriage work where one partner polices the epistemology of the other in meaningless things. Like if they didn't like standing right next to a running microwave or something. "NO! That's debunked! Stay there!"
Regarding the vaccine timing, I wasn't particularly motivated to get it given that my odds of getting hospitalized from covid are like 1 in 40,000 while my risk of getting myocarditis from the vax is like 1 in 120,000. Also data isn't too promising regarding me being significantly less likely to spread while vaxxed, so I wasn't too convinced there was a really strong case to make regarding the common good.
However a few months ago I become aware of a more pressing common good concern which is that ICU beds are in short supply in places where the unvaxxed numbers are high and this effectively makes hospitals unavailable to those who need them most. I figured many of the unvaxxed covid patients in those ICU beds made similar calculations to me and even if the odds are low I have a duty to do my best to stay out of the ICU during a time when beds are in short supply.
But I've been admittedly dragging my feet as I want to communicate to my wife that I'm not rushing this, I'm listening to her thoughts, and I'm open to any good information that might give me reason to reconsider. But predictably our conversations haven't been very fruitful as they haven't resulted in me being convinced by any of her points and interested in coming up with a supplement and treatment plan together.
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I did a word search on the many replies and didn't see this noted, excuse me if I am re-treading something:
Get the Johnson & Johnson shot. It is like a normal annual flu vaccine with no MRNA fancy schmancy technology, just a weak virus that you fight off. Just like your childhood polio and whatnot. Single shot, one and done, no worries. Maybe the Mrs. will buy into that idea.
Honestly for anyone still on the fence this is something you should grab ahold of before they decide it somehow "doesn't count." In our area most sites are not offering it any longer (I have no idea why, probably political and financial motives, the usual) so you may need to go to one of the community health sites where they are emphasizing trying to capture the low-mobility folks who are less able to easily follow up with a second shot.
I realize this doesn't address the marital discord, but these are crazy times and some extra grace toward your wife may pay off in the long run.
Thanks for the idea Nancy. However as Catholics we are compelled to seek out the vaccines that have the least cooperation with abortion, and so the mRNA vaccines are the winner ethically as their involvement with the fetal cell lines only involved testing whereas the JNJ involves them in the production.
There's also the blood clot issue which, though statistically small, has left an impression.
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OP, from what I can tell, you have two basic options:
-- Immediate and intensive marriage counseling, possibly with individual therapy for one or both of you.
-- Continuing in an unhealthy, dysfunctional relationship until the wheels fall off and the marriage implodes (or explodes).
The first option might actually lead to divorce. It if does, the divorce is likely to be relatively amicable, and will be less damaging for all involved. The 2nd option leads to divorce, quite possibly a nasty, traumatic one where your innocent children will suffer irrevocable damage. Therapy helps heal. It can't erase the scars.
So, as a devout Catholic as it sounds like you and your wife are, you are morally and ethically obligated to the first option.
And fast. Kids are likely going to be eligible for the Covid vaccines by the end of the year. You do not have much time before your backs are against a wall.
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Well, I shared the instances where I didn't insist upon my way because the stakes were low. But there have been plenty of times where she didn't get what she wanted and we compromised or more or less went with my way after some convincing. I have a hard time seeing a marriage work where one partner polices the epistemology of the other in meaningless things. Like if they didn't like standing right next to a running microwave or something. "NO! That's debunked! Stay there!"
You misunderstand. I'm not telling you to police her behavior and force her to do things. That'd be seriously troubling. I'm talking about you wasting your time and effort or bearing some consequence like appearing like bad neighbors, as in the instances you listed. I'm talking about you capitulating because it's easier to give in. Every time you do that, you weaken your ability to stand against the same sort of behavior when it matters. Consistency is key.
It's good that there are times where things went your way regarding irrational behavior. What's the common theme there? How do you make this one of those times?
Regarding the vaccine timing, I wasn't particularly motivated to get it given that my odds of getting hospitalized from covid are like 1 in 40,000 while my risk of getting myocarditis from the vax is like 1 in 120,000. Also data isn't too promising regarding me being significantly less likely to spread while vaxxed, so I wasn't too convinced there was a really strong case to make regarding the common good.
However a few months ago I become aware of a more pressing common good concern which is that ICU beds are in short supply in places where the unvaxxed numbers are high and this effectively makes hospitals unavailable to those who need them most. I figured many of the unvaxxed covid patients in those ICU beds made similar calculations to me and even if the odds are low I have a duty to do my best to stay out of the ICU during a time when beds are in short supply.
ICUs being full has been an issue since the start of this. The whole flattening the curve thing to reduce stress on the medical system might ring a bell. Having a lower chance of a breakthrough infection than an unvaccinated infection lowers your ability to spread while vaccinated. You're mixing up your base rates. But that's a digression. Medical professionals have pleaded with everybody to get vaccinated, for very good reasons. Rationalize your decision to be convinced only after facing job loss as you please.
But I've been admittedly dragging my feet as I want to communicate to my wife that I'm not rushing this, I'm listening to her thoughts, and I'm open to any good information that might give me reason to reconsider. But predictably our conversations haven't been very fruitful as they haven't resulted in me being convinced by any of her points and interested in coming up with a supplement and treatment plan together.
Again, going about this entirely wrong. You seem to think this is a debate, where facts and figures matter. You're in a battle for your wife's emotions. Saying you could be convinced by some fact doesn't matter. You need to listen to her fears, her worries, her deep seated concerns. You need to acknowledge that she has those. You need to understand them. You need to show sympathy. You don't have to be bound by them, but you can't just brush them away because you're unconvinced by her argument.
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I did a word search on the many replies and didn't see this noted, excuse me if I am re-treading something:
Get the Johnson & Johnson shot. It is like a normal annual flu vaccine with no MRNA fancy schmancy technology, just a weak virus that you fight off. Just like your childhood polio and whatnot. Single shot, one and done, no worries. Maybe the Mrs. will buy into that idea.
Honestly for anyone still on the fence this is something you should grab ahold of before they decide it somehow "doesn't count." In our area most sites are not offering it any longer (I have no idea why, probably political and financial motives, the usual) so you may need to go to one of the community health sites where they are emphasizing trying to capture the low-mobility folks who are less able to easily follow up with a second shot.
I realize this doesn't address the marital discord, but these are crazy times and some extra grace toward your wife may pay off in the long run.
The J&J issue seems to be simple supply and demand. People were getting it when they were taking whatever was available, but even then there was a preference for Pfizer or Moderna. A few folks still prefer the one and done idea, but not many.
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So I walk away from the conversation feeling as though the only thing that would make her feel heard and respected is more or less agreement. Perhaps you can share some techniques to disagree firmly and respectfully.
Your situation is unenviable, but you've done yourself no favors along the way. You always get more of what you do. Going to the trouble to rewire your router to move it out of the bedroom because WiFi might be harmful was giving in to irrational behavior. Getting a no trespassing sign because one of the two major US political parties won was giving into irrational behavior. You can probably think of many more instances of this sort of thing that you've not bothered to stand against. Each one a small thing individually, except that it continually gave and reinforced the message that if she fought the way she fought over her irrational beliefs, she would win. Now you're in it big time and she believes, thanks to all the past evidence, that she can get you to do what she wants on this too.
I know this doesn't help you now. But you need to understand you also have a role in bringing things to this point. This isn't her being crazy. This is her executing a strategy that you've shown her time and again works. That's rational. You're the crazy one if you think that you can just undo all of that because there's a result you care about at stake now. You should've had the fight, or better yet, learned how to defuse it without capitulating, when the stakes were inconsequential.
Also know that you're going about this wrong. You can't logic somebody out of a position that they didn't logic themselves into. You're doing an admirable job with your arguments, poking holes in lines of assertion and questioning, and you're getting nowhere for it. You will not get anywhere for it. You can present all the statistics, arguments, anything you want, and it's going to fall on deaf ears.
Presumably, this is much like the argument for vaccination fell on yours. If you thought it was a good idea, you'd already have done it without your workplace mandating it. And don't think you gave into logic because of the mandate. The only thing that changed was threat of losing your job, not the facts at hand. That's not an argument. You gave into an emotion, fear. The fear of being unable to provide for your family. The fear of being unable to pursue your goals at a lower paying job.
You have a seriously narrow path to thread. You're going to have to make her feel listened to and respected while not capitulating. You're going to have to do this after reinforcing her notion that you listening to her and respecting her is just doing what she wants because that's what she wanted. Maybe you can find the emotion that's going to get her belief on this to flip, just like you flipped, if it even exists. Good luck.
Well, I shared the instances where I didn't insist upon my way because the stakes were low. But there have been plenty of times where she didn't get what she wanted and we compromised or more or less went with my way after some convincing. I have a hard time seeing a marriage work where one partner polices the epistemology of the other in meaningless things. Like if they didn't like standing right next to a running microwave or something. "NO! That's debunked! Stay there!"
Regarding the vaccine timing, I wasn't particularly motivated to get it given that my odds of getting hospitalized from covid are like 1 in 40,000 while my risk of getting myocarditis from the vax is like 1 in 120,000. Also data isn't too promising regarding me being significantly less likely to spread while vaxxed, so I wasn't too convinced there was a really strong case to make regarding the common good.
However a few months ago I become aware of a more pressing common good concern which is that ICU beds are in short supply in places where the unvaxxed numbers are high and this effectively makes hospitals unavailable to those who need them most. I figured many of the unvaxxed covid patients in those ICU beds made similar calculations to me and even if the odds are low I have a duty to do my best to stay out of the ICU during a time when beds are in short supply.
But I've been admittedly dragging my feet as I want to communicate to my wife that I'm not rushing this, I'm listening to her thoughts, and I'm open to any good information that might give me reason to reconsider. But predictably our conversations haven't been very fruitful as they haven't resulted in me being convinced by any of her points and interested in coming up with a supplement and treatment plan together.
The ways in which you are responding to ideas here point to some issues that I REALLY think you should address with professional counselling.
The point that was trying to be made to you was not that you did anything wrong by giving in to your wife's irrational concerns, but just to point out to you that you helped create the dynamic that you are in now.
You are seeing her as a person with a problem, and you as the person who has to deal with her problem. You are not perceiving the two of your as engaging together on creating your current dynamic.
You may think this is a her problem, but it's a both of you problem, because both of you HAVE the problem.
There's never a point in focusing on blame in a marriage, it doesn't matter. What matters is responsibility, and because there are two of you, you are both equally responsible for the situation you are in, and equally responsible for getting out of it.
But you can only control your behaviour.
This is why I think you REALLY need some guidance in determining what your behaviour ideally should be. Because I'm telling you, from the ways you are perceiving what people are saying, and the fact that you posted this to begin with, you DO NOT know how best to behave right now.
And that's okay.
Go get some help on this. You really, really need it.
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This seems like a strange hill to die on to me. I get the vibe that you're not really into getting the vax but you would if it means you could keep your job. I assume as a Catholic that you realize your main allegiance is to your family. Are you considering losing your family over your job? Or do you really want to get the vaccine? I assume not if you haven't done it yet. Why don't you think about moving to a state that doesn't mandate it? Is it really because you are afraid of being out of work, or is it because you are secretly trying to find an excuse to get the vaccine? If your wife has said she'd rather move and take the loss of income that might entail, instead of the risks of the vaccine, it seems to be win-win.
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This is why I think you REALLY need some guidance in determining what your behaviour ideally should be. Because I'm telling you, from the ways you are perceiving what people are saying, and the fact that you posted this to begin with, you DO NOT know how best to behave right now.
And that's okay.
Go get some help on this. You really, really need it.
Yeah, that's true. I guess knowing what I have to do and knowing how to behave and communicate right now are two different things.
Thanks.
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The point that was trying to be made to you was not that you did anything wrong by giving in to your wife's irrational concerns, but just to point out to you that you helped create the dynamic that you are in now.
You are seeing her as a person with a problem, and you as the person who has to deal with her problem. You are not perceiving the two of your as engaging together on creating your current dynamic.
You may think this is a her problem, but it's a both of you problem, because both of you HAVE the problem.
Yes, that. I admire your ability to be concise. Thank you.
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OP, I think you have a serious problem if you think THIS is the insurmountable fork in the road. I wouldn't dream of divorcing DH over this, and I dont even have children to raise. It just isnt that big of a deal. Your REAL problem surrounding the Covid vaccine will come when your children are eligible for vaccine. You may need counseling to work through that one.
But how would you feel if your DH was ready to go nuclear about you getting it?…
We’ve been married 32 years. If he Failed in a “live and let live “attitude toward me it would’ve come out way before this. In fact it would’ve come up when we were dating.
You have no idea how independent I was and I wasn’t going to be hamstrung by somebody else.
He and I also have very different approaches to religion. And once again, it’s OK because we don’t have children so he can have whatever faith he has and I can have whatever lack of faith I have. He doesn’t require that I’m a believer, I don’t require that he’s a nonbeliever.
So if he went “nuclear “if I got a vaccine then that’s on him. He’s made a decision about our marriage, not me. He ended it, not me.
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This seems like a strange hill to die on to me. I get the vibe that you're not really into getting the vax but you would if it means you could keep your job. I assume as a Catholic that you realize your main allegiance is to your family. Are you considering losing your family over your job? Or do you really want to get the vaccine? I assume not if you haven't done it yet. Why don't you think about moving to a state that doesn't mandate it? Is it really because you are afraid of being out of work, or is it because you are secretly trying to find an excuse to get the vaccine? If your wife has said she'd rather move and take the loss of income that might entail, instead of the risks of the vaccine, it seems to be win-win.
No, I am interested in getting the vaccine and have been for the past couple months as I saw death numbers tick up predictably in places where vaccination rates are low.
I haven't gotten it yet because I've been trying to communicate to my wife that her input is important to me and that her perspective is considered and that I'm open to trying to work together. But as we've communicated I haven't given her any reason to think that I've become persuaded and this is upsetting her.
I have no interest in blowing up our lives and moving and switching jobs over something like this. I'd do it if my employer asked me to do something immoral, but not this.
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This is why I think you REALLY need some guidance in determining what your behaviour ideally should be. Because I'm telling you, from the ways you are perceiving what people are saying, and the fact that you posted this to begin with, you DO NOT know how best to behave right now.
And that's okay.
Go get some help on this. You really, really need it.
Yeah, that's true. I guess knowing what I have to do and knowing how to behave and communicate right now are two different things.
Thanks.
Exactly. Great insight.
That's why I said that the vaccine issue isn't even the issue, it's the catalyst that's bringing the real issue to light, which is that you and your wife don't have great mechanisms in place to deal with conflict.
The fact that she's prone to fears that you don't think are rational isn't the problem in your marriage, plenty of marriages do just fine with that as their reality. The problem is that neither of you have the very learnable communication skills to move through such a conflict.
If either, ideally both, of you do the work to learn these skills, then your marriage will be much more resilient to ANY conflict that can come up.
My marriage has been through hell and back over the past few years with DH and I frequently starting out on the opposite sides of issues, but we both have total confidence in our ability to work through things respectfully and lovingly because we've learned how to do that.
My DH has become a much better partner in a conflict since he started solo therapy. And he was total shit at conflict. Like, epic level bad. I also needed therapy to help me deal with that because I was totally unaccustomed to dealing with someone who was just frankly horrible at handling conflict. His therapist has helped him process trauma, largely to do with his abusive father, and my therapist helped me figure out how to handle my reactions to his trauma responses.
We BOTH had responsibility to learn how to modify our behaviours and reactions for better outcomes. That's how partnership works.
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But is any mechanism to deal with conflict going to matter if each party is entrenched in their position and the issue has a potentially fatal outcome? No matter how much or how well each communicates and no matter how compassionate they are toward each other, the bottom line is that there is one decision to be made - to vaccinate or not - and no matter which option is chosen, someone will be unhappy. Will it affect the marriage in the long term? Time will tell. Unfortunately, it has taken a deadly illness to reveal that you each have radically different world views. I have no answers. Best of luck.
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Hey man, you don't need to dust under the rug if you never look under the rug, am I right??
There's some truth to what you're saying, but there's also some irrational optimism baked into what you're saying.
I always root for marriages to work, and I think they usually can if both parties want them to.
Maybe this anti-vax issue really represents an epistemological shift on your wife's part, and you no longer understand knowledge in the same way at all.
But, just maybe it's a one off. If it is, you could be making more out of it than it needs to be.
You do have to solve the vaccine problem. I don't think you have to fix her theory of knowledge to do it.
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But is any mechanism to deal with conflict going to matter if each party is entrenched in their position and the issue has a potentially fatal outcome? No matter how much or how well each communicates and no matter how compassionate they are toward each other, the bottom line is that there is one decision to be made - to vaccinate or not - and no matter which option is chosen, someone will be unhappy. Will it affect the marriage in the long term? Time will tell. Unfortunately, it has taken a deadly illness to reveal that you each have radically different world views. I have no answers. Best of luck.
I don;t know if this is in response to my post about communication, but if you read my earlier posts for context, I already said that he should go get vaccinated and that dealing with the fallout of that is part of dealing with the conflict in their marriage.
The advice I'm giving above has no bearing on whether or not he should get vaccinated, that's not even the issue in the marriage, it's just a catalyst. Of course he should get vaccinated.
I made this *very* clear in my very first response.
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Hey man, you don't need to dust under the rug if you never look under the rug, am I right??
There's some truth to what you're saying, but there's also some irrational optimism baked into what you're saying.
I always root for marriages to work, and I think they usually can if both parties want them to.
Maybe this anti-vax issue really represents an epistemological shift on your wife's part, and you no longer understand knowledge in the same way at all.
But, just maybe it's a one off. If it is, you could be making more out of it than it needs to be.
You do have to solve the vaccine problem. I don't think you have to fix her theory of knowledge to do it.
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FWIW, I totally agree with this.
OP, You can work on your marriage by focusing on the way you communicate when you don't agree. Ignore the vaccination issue entirely when you try to conceptualize it, because it's pointless to even focus on that.
You don't need to fix her, you need to fix how your communicate with her.
The issue is that you hold differing beliefs, which is bound to happen, and there's nothing wrong with this. Marriages can work just fine when there are differing beliefs, as long as you have effective communication and conflict management skills in place to respectfully navigate those differing beliefs.
Right now, the problem is that you seem to think they're something wrong with her, and she feels it's okay to threaten leaving you if you try and assert your own bodily autonomy. Neither response is healthy or helpful.
There is a way to respect each other and not have it turn into WW3 and talk of separating just because you disagree over a vaccine. BUT, it requires both of you to have healthier communication and conflict skills.
You don't have to agree with her beliefs to respect her, and she doesn't have to threaten to leave you when you don't agree with her beliefs. There are ways to not at all be on the same page in terms of belief, but to still get on the same page in terms of high level priorities, where each person feels like their needs are being taken seriously.
It's hard work though, and you BOTH have to do it.
The question is, do you want to, and does she?
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As for the wife’s concern about altering DNA: I would think the Catholic Church has come up with a position on this. Don’t they usually issue guidance for Catholics of the world on topics of science and reproduction? I wouldn’t be looking at the local priest for this As I consider it to be high-level Vatican level theology.
Also, you can always get the JNJ vaccine which is not an mRNA vaccine although seems to be shaking out as less effective against Covid virus.
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As for the wife’s concern about altering DNA: I would think the Catholic Church has come up with a position on this. Don’t they usually issue guidance for Catholics of the world on topics of science and reproduction? I wouldn’t be looking at the local priest for this As I consider it to be high-level Vatican level theology.
Also, you can always get the JNJ vaccine which is not an mRNA vaccine although seems to be shaking out as less effective against Covid virus.
Part of the problem with your first paragraph is that it is an appeal to logic to someone who is no longer thinking logically. The other part of the problem is that the Catholic conspiracy theorists are busy convincing themselves that the current Pope is not a true Pope, for some batshit reason, and that therefore anything coming out of the Vatican is false.
OP needs to find a way to communicate with his wife that will restore a partnership between them, because at the moment his wife is backed into a corner and neither of them know how to communicate so as to get her out of it.
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As for the wife’s concern about altering DNA: I would think the Catholic Church has come up with a position on this. Don’t they usually issue guidance for Catholics of the world on topics of science and reproduction? I wouldn’t be looking at the local priest for this As I consider it to be high-level Vatican level theology.
Also, you can always get the JNJ vaccine which is not an mRNA vaccine although seems to be shaking out as less effective against Covid virus.
I haven't followed this thread closely enough to know if J Boogie and wife are Catholic, but yes, Pope Francis and "Bishops across North and South America" encourage vaccination: https://www.vaticannews.va/en/pope/news/2021-08/pope-francis-appeal-covid-19-vaccines-act-of-love.html
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As for the wife’s concern about altering DNA: I would think the Catholic Church has come up with a position on this. Don’t they usually issue guidance for Catholics of the world on topics of science and reproduction? I wouldn’t be looking at the local priest for this As I consider it to be high-level Vatican level theology.
Also, you can always get the JNJ vaccine which is not an mRNA vaccine although seems to be shaking out as less effective against Covid virus.
I haven't followed this thread closely enough to know if J Boogie and wife are Catholic, but yes, Pope Francis and "Bishops across North and South America" encourage vaccination: https://www.vaticannews.va/en/pope/news/2021-08/pope-francis-appeal-covid-19-vaccines-act-of-love.html
The OP is Catholic.
Ok, but this doesn't address the wife’s specific concerns about altered DNA in the context of reproducing. I suppose this general seal of approval from the Pope is good, but having a proclamation from the old men in skirts where they say “go forth with a Covid vaccine and populate the earth and your progeny won’t suffer (Because Science!) “ might help to put her mind at ease.
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Hey man, you don't need to dust under the rug if you never look under the rug, am I right??
There's some truth to what you're saying, but there's also some irrational optimism baked into what you're saying.
I always root for marriages to work, and I think they usually can if both parties want them to.
Maybe this anti-vax issue really represents an epistemological shift on your wife's part, and you no longer understand knowledge in the same way at all.
But, just maybe it's a one off. If it is, you could be making more out of it than it needs to be.
You do have to solve the vaccine problem. I don't think you have to fix her theory of knowledge to do it.
This is smart! Yes!!!
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Mostly PTF, as this thread has been very entertaining
J Boogie, my FIL is anti-vax with regards to covid. He plans to let his employer fire him if it comes down to a mandate. Meanwhile, my MIL got vaccinated without his knowledge. Even before this issue, I wouldn't say that they had a healthy marriage, but they are devout enough in their faith that they would sooner be miserable together than get a divorce. So I understand where you are coming from, to an extent.
Have you suggested marriage counseling to your wife yet?
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The other part of the problem is that the Catholic conspiracy theorists are busy convincing themselves that the current Pope is not a true Pope, for some batshit reason, and that therefore anything coming out of the Vatican is false.
I could write volumes on this, but to summarize, as an orthodox (meaning I accept Church teaching as opposed to picking and choosing) Catholic I find the recently growing strain of Catholic right wing paranoia to mirror partisan divides almost exactly - where positions are adopted simply to oppose ideological opponents. It used to be that Catholics on the right would criticize Catholics on the left as "cafeteria catholics" for picking and choosing which doctrines to abide by - contraception being the elephant in the room, as just a tiny % of Catholics abide by this teaching.
But when it comes to the Church's longstanding positions on the death penalty, cooperation in promoting environmental stewardship, acceptance of immigrants and refugees, and obedience (when it doesn't violate Catholic teaching) to civil authorities who are not tyrants (tyrant being defined as someone who it would be justified or honorable to kill).
I say that this mirrors partisan divides almost exactly because either side has one foot disingenuously and conspicuously rooted in our shared project of constitutional liberal democracy and one foot dedicated toward the primary-winning red meat of dubious constitutionality.
At least left wing cafeteria Catholics are honest about their casual approach to doctrine, simply saying they're not in favor of it, rather than insisting that the doctrine-makers have been poisoned by the devil within in order to continue regarding themselves as faithful orthodox Catholics.
Ross Douthat is probably the most insightful voice on this.
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I feel for you OP.
I don't have anything brilliant to add except that I live in TX and if anything, the politics of masking/vaccines/mandates are more charged here than anywhere. The people who don't believe in the COVID vaccines feel they are experiencing just as much "tryanny" here as anywhere else -- amped by the constant political footballs of governor vs. mayors/school districts/localities lawsuits. So I highly doubt moving would help (not that you are seriously considering it).
I agree with the others who say getting the vaccine may at least move the conversation to the aftermath rather than the ongoing build up. That becomes something of a fever pitch. At least in the aftermath, you start unearthing the core issues (do you each feel respected in your individual agency, how to you move past something where you fundamentally disagree, etc.). I'd like to imagine that ~2 weeks post your second dose (in the case of Pfizer/Moderna), and submitting some sort of proof that you're still fertile, would somehow make her feel better. But that's likely wishful thinking since the deeper issue seems to be a disagreement about how to handle disagreements.
+100 on the agreement for a media diet and therapist socratic discussions on what's a reasonable way to respond when someone you love needs to act in accordance with their own values as opposed to the values you wished they held
I'm sorry you're going through this. It sounds very difficult. I feel like she could benefit from reading/learning about differentiation vs. attachment in marriage. I know early in my marriage I could be unintentionally emotionally controlling. I conflated our agreement over issues as marital health, and failed to see how demanding the same views could be a form of enmeshment. I found it threatening when we weren't in agreement on big issues. I was young (early 20s) and mostly outgrew that perspective, but I also benefited from engaging with couple's therapists and resources like the Gottman institue, David Schnarch's work on differentiation, E. Perel, etc. Maybe something like that could help.
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I feel for you OP.
I don't have anything brilliant to add except that I live in TX and if anything, the politics of masking/vaccines/mandates are more charged here than anywhere. The people who don't believe in the COVID vaccines feel they are experiencing just as much "tryanny" here as anywhere else -- amped by the constant political footballs of governor vs. mayors/school districts/localities lawsuits. So I highly doubt moving would help (not that you are seriously considering it).
I agree with the others who say getting the vaccine may at least move the conversation to the aftermath rather than the ongoing build up. That becomes something of a fever pitch. At least in the aftermath, you start unearthing the core issues (do you each feel respected in your individual agency, how to you move past something where you fundamentally disagree, etc.). I'd like to imagine that ~2 weeks post your second dose (in the case of Pfizer/Moderna), and submitting some sort of proof that you're still fertile, would somehow make her feel better. But that's likely wishful thinking since the deeper issue seems to be a disagreement about how to handle disagreements.
+100 on the agreement for a media diet and therapist socratic discussions on what's a reasonable way to respond when someone you love needs to act in accordance with their own values as opposed to the values you wished they held
I'm sorry you're going through this. It sounds very difficult. I feel like she could benefit from reading/learning about differentiation vs. attachment in marriage. I know early in my marriage I could be unintentionally emotionally controlling. I conflated our agreement over issues as marital health, and failed to see how demanding the same views could be a form of enmeshment. I found it threatening when we weren't in agreement on big issues. I was young (early 20s) and mostly outgrew that perspective, but I also benefited from engaging with couple's therapists and resources like the Gottman institue, David Schnarch's work on differentiation, E. Perel, etc. Maybe something like that could help.
Thanks - I'll check out those resources. I've heard of Gottman institute before and find their work pretty compelling. Thanks for sharing what you've gone through.
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Have you suggested marriage counseling to your wife yet?
Yes. But she is convinced that I am trying to recruit an ally to scoff at her fears. When I try to explain that I view this current impasse as a sign that our relationship needs to be better understood and worked on she doesn't seem convinced or supportive. She has however mentioned that she is open to seeing a counselor that comes with recommendations from her friends though, so it's not that she's closed off to idea - it's that she's wary of mainstream health care providers all towing the line and providing her with printouts from institutions that she doesn't place much trust in. She also says I just haven't followed through on the things we've planned on doing to strengthen our marriage, which is partially true as I am very rarely the initiator of family outings or dates, something I admittedly need to work on and mostly only end up doing after she gets upset that she is usually the one who initiates them (her fam is almost always the babysitter as the in laws live upstairs)- but we have done plenty of the things like praying together more and seeing a priest together.
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Have you suggested marriage counseling to your wife yet?
Yes. But she is convinced that I am trying to recruit an ally to scoff at her fears. When I try to explain that I view this current impasse as a sign that our relationship needs to be better understood and worked on she doesn't seem convinced or supportive. She has however mentioned that she is open to seeing a counselor that comes with recommendations from her friends though, so it's not that she's closed off to idea - it's that she's wary of mainstream health care providers all towing the line and providing her with printouts from institutions that she doesn't place much trust in. She also says I just haven't followed through on the things we've planned on doing to strengthen our marriage, which is partially true as I am very rarely the initiator of family outings or dates, something I admittedly need to work on and mostly only end up doing after she gets upset that she is usually the one who initiates them (her fam is almost always the babysitter as the in laws live upstairs)- but we have done plenty of the things like praying together more and seeing a priest together.
This description is concerning to me. Is this new behavior for your wife? Honestly would you be interested in bringing another child into this home environment as-is? The worry (unfounded as it may be) about fertility sounds like putting the cart before the horse.
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Have you suggested marriage counseling to your wife yet?
Yes. But she is convinced that I am trying to recruit an ally to scoff at her fears. When I try to explain that I view this current impasse as a sign that our relationship needs to be better understood and worked on she doesn't seem convinced or supportive. She has however mentioned that she is open to seeing a counselor that comes with recommendations from her friends though, so it's not that she's closed off to idea - it's that she's wary of mainstream health care providers all towing the line and providing her with printouts from institutions that she doesn't place much trust in. She also says I just haven't followed through on the things we've planned on doing to strengthen our marriage, which is partially true as I am very rarely the initiator of family outings or dates, something I admittedly need to work on and mostly only end up doing after she gets upset that she is usually the one who initiates them (her fam is almost always the babysitter as the in laws live upstairs)- but we have done plenty of the things like praying together more and seeing a priest together.
This is why I strongly suggest she find her own therapist first. Therapy only works as well as you are willing to engage in it. If she can't trust the marriage counsellor, it will serve no purpose and may worsen things. She needs a solid, excellently qualified therapist of her own who can make her feel supported and safe with the therapeutic process. Someone who can feel solidly in her corner alone, who can help her work through her fears and reactions. This is your best hope at dramatically improving her readiness for couple's counselling.
There's a reason couple's counselling doesn't work for most couples, because they aren't both ready for it, often go when it's far too deep into the crisis, and one or both parties desperately need individual counselling in order to even begin engaging in collaborative work.
She sounds very scared, and as her partner, your priority should be to focus on finding ways to help her feel less afraid and more empowered in her life. This doesn't mean giving in to her fears when it's not too inconvenient for you, this means expressing your need for her to get the kind of supports she needs to feel genuinely safe.
Your job is to encourage her to care for herself properly, not because she's broken and needs fixing, but because you genuinely care about her, and want her to thrive.
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OP, sorry, didn’t read your sentence out thread about the J and J vaccine being untenable for you due to religious reasons. Just now caught that.
I echo a recent poster and that I hope you are using super Duper reliable birth control. That is always where my mind goes when I read the first couple of paragraphs of marital discord in families with children. Please do not bring any more children into this situation. That’s none of my business but can’t help but say that.
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OP, sorry, didn’t read your sentence out thread about the J and J vaccine being untenable for you due to religious reasons. Just now caught that.
I echo a recent poster and that I hope you are using super Duper reliable birth control. That is always where my mind goes when I read the first couple of paragraphs of marital discord in families with children. Please do not bring any more children into this situation. That’s none of my business but can’t help but say that.
A very central teaching of the Catholic church is that artificial birth control is not allowed. No contraceptives, no IUDs, no condoms. This is why I am one of 8 kids (well, to be fair my parents really loved kids). Only natural family planning is permissible (rhythm method and the like). As a teen, my doctor wanted to prescribe me birth control for non-reproductive reasons and my parents strictly would not allow it.
I've been following this thread with interest. I was raised in a very strictly Catholic family (never thought to call it orthodox, but based on J Boogie's description of orthodox=believing exactly what the church teaches, without variation, that's what my family was.) I don't really have a lot of insight to offer but am impressed with so much of the wisdom in this thread.
I hope that OP and OP's wife are able to start individual counseling because it sounds like it would be very beneficial for this situation.
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OP, sorry, didn’t read your sentence out thread about the J and J vaccine being untenable for you due to religious reasons. Just now caught that.
I echo a recent poster and that I hope you are using super Duper reliable birth control. That is always where my mind goes when I read the first couple of paragraphs of marital discord in families with children. Please do not bring any more children into this situation. That’s none of my business but can’t help but say that.
A very central teaching of the Catholic church is that artificial birth control is not allowed. No contraceptives, no IUDs, no condoms. This is why I am one of 8 kids (well, to be fair my parents really loved kids). Only natural family planning is permissible (rhythm method and the like). As a teen, my doctor wanted to prescribe me birth control for non-reproductive reasons and my parents strictly would not allow it…l
Oh, I know that, .i was just hoping against hope there is something out there nowdays such as super dooper reliable rhythm. I think the tools for tracking cycles are better than decades ago, but ya fotta use ‘em.
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I know this isn’t the point of the thread but I just can’t wrap my head around people refusing simple and proven methods of improving the quality of their lives for Reasons. Vaccines are proven to reduce and avoid tremendous suffering and death. Birth control leads to empowerment and higher education and income attainment and better outcomes for children and families, not to mention assisting with a host of other medical issues. Looking over the arc of history we have enjoyed such significant improvement in quality of life for billions by such advances.
If only we humans were more rational and did a better job of weighing risks and rewards (myself included; we are all human after all). What I learned in my risk and decision making classes was to assess the various possible outcomes and the probabilities of them, and make a decision that maximizes value per your preferences. On paper it is so straightforward and clearly our minds don’t work that way at all. It makes the engineer in me want to pound my head on the table.
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So does your wife no longer believe in following the Pope? He clearly believes Catholics should get the vaccine, calling it an act of love for others.
https://www.vaticannews.va/en/pope/news/2021-08/pope-francis-appeal-covid-19-vaccines-act-of-love.html
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I know this isn’t the point of the thread but I just can’t wrap my head around people refusing simple and proven methods of improving the quality of their lives for Reasons. Vaccines are proven to reduce and avoid tremendous suffering and death. Birth control leads to empowerment and higher education and income attainment and better outcomes for children and families, not to mention assisting with a host of other medical issues. Looking over the arc of history we have enjoyed such significant improvement in quality of life for billions by such advances.
If only we humans were more rational and did a better job of weighing risks and rewards (myself included; we are all human after all). What I learned in my risk and decision making classes was to assess the various possible outcomes and the probabilities of them, and make a decision that maximizes value per your preferences. On paper it is so straightforward and clearly our minds don’t work that way at all. It makes the engineer in me want to pound my head on the table.
Humans are not, never have been, and never will be rational creatures. We are rationalizing creatures.
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I agree with everyone else posting to get the vaccine and then deal with the fallout (also that you both need therapy). If you need an appeal to her emotions, I would recommend the subreddit r/HermanCainAward. It has a compilation of THOUSANDS of people who posted anti-vax conspiracy theories, and then had horrifying and painful ER stays and/or died from COVID, leaving orphans and grieving friends and family. Seriously, each time you refresh the page there's a new batch. There are also posts by people who were formerly anti-vax, read the threads of how painful it is to die this way, and then changed their minds and got the vaccine. It puts a very personal face on the statistics.
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I had this situation. I waited several months to get vaccinated for a few reasons (WFH, no travel, young/healthy, wanting more data, etc), and when I finally decided to do it, I got an extreme reaction from my wife. I was pretty blown away, and backed down for the time being because I valued peace in the home. After chewing on it for a couple more weeks, I finally returned and simply said that I was going to do it and that I had an appointment to do it. She was still adamantly opposed, but had a couple of weeks herself to think about it and didn't have an extreme emotional reaction this time.
She asked me to look at VAERS and some other articles (from mainstream pubs, not conspiracy theory sites), but those honestly made me even more comfortable with my decision about my personal risk profile with the vax. The final request she made was that I at least have a family member take me in case I had an allergic reaction on the drive home. I didn't think it was necessary, but it wasn't an unreasonable request and I was happy to oblige. Both doses were a big nothing burger for me, save 24 hours of a sore deltoid.
Fast forward three months and SHE just got her first dose of vaccine.
There were a few things that helped her feel safe enough to get it herself. First, I just treated it like it was nothing and also respected her decision to have control of her own body. I didn't try to argue or pressure her to do it - I didn't even talk about it, unless she brought it up, and I just listened to her concerns and had some empathy for her. Second, nothing happened to me, no fever, no fatigue, nothing. Third, she's gotten really tired of taking precautions and being scared of this virus. Finally, she started watching videos from https://zdoggmd.com (https://zdoggmd.com) on YouTube. Rational, empathetic, and free of judgment - providing fact based information on COVID vaccines. She started forwarding me his videos and I watched a few of them. He is very pro-vax, but anti-shaming.
This model is one that is born out time and again - if you actually want to convince someone to do something, you can't force it on them. Listen to them, validate any real concerns they may have (anyone who says there are ZERO concerns with these new vaccines - or any medication for that matter - is not being sincere or is politically blinded), and give them space to make decisions for themselves. If you want more, you can look up stages of change research from Prochaska and DiClemente, as well as books like Motivational Interviewing (grad-level counseling book). The bottom line from years of research and volumes of published works is that the more you push on someone - even if it's something they already want to do - the more they will push back, even if they know it is not in their best interests.
Case in point - there have been two times in the past three months where she was close to getting a COVID shot and backed off. The first time was when NYC and LA announced vaccine mandates. The second was when Biden announced his national mandates. When given the space to think for herself, she was moving in the direction of getting vaccinated, but as soon as she started to sense govt pressure to do so, she dug in and backed away. This isn't a character flaw - this is basic human nature, and the stuff that counseling textbooks are made of. At the end of the day, she is not under any mandates at the moment, nor facing any in the immediate future (we currently live in TX), but when she was even just given the mental space to consider her options and shown respect for her autonomy and dignity as a human being, she ultimately made a decision that I believe was in her best interests.
Thank you for your story. I have a sibling that still refuses to be vaccinated, who has also backed away more forcefully after government or family pressure. I try very hard to be respectful and I truly believe mandates make things worse for many people actively considering this. It's hard to balance being respectful with ensuring I am meeting my personal/social responsibility to help inform those around me.
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I'm so sorry this is happening to you. Fellow Catholic here, and mom of young kids.
You say this anti-vax/paranoid phase started happening around 18 months ago, which would be shortly after the birth of your youngest child. I second others that she may be suffering from untreated post-partum depression or anxiety. Being a SAHM is HARD with young kids. The isolation may contribute to her getting sucked into the internet conspiracy theory wormholes.
I would ask:
1. Do you give her a break for any regular activities that don't involve the kids (e.g. classes at the gym, weekly happy hour with friends)
2. Do you ever take initiative to plan fun outings (e.g. date nights, trips to the zoo with the kids, vacation) Or is that always on her?
3. Is there a history of miscarriage, trouble conceiving, etc. that may be at the root of her fertility paranoia? Of course fine if you don't want to post this all over the internet, but something to consider...
4. You said she was open to counseling. Are you putting it on her to set up the therapy? If she's comfortable going with recommendations from friends, you ask for a list of names and then take care of the rest yourself. This would also allow you to google them beforehand and pick the one with the best credentials, who is unlikely to be a conspiracy theorist themselves.
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I had this situation. I waited several months to get vaccinated for a few reasons (WFH, no travel, young/healthy, wanting more data, etc), and when I finally decided to do it, I got an extreme reaction from my wife. I was pretty blown away, and backed down for the time being because I valued peace in the home. After chewing on it for a couple more weeks, I finally returned and simply said that I was going to do it and that I had an appointment to do it. She was still adamantly opposed, but had a couple of weeks herself to think about it and didn't have an extreme emotional reaction this time.
She asked me to look at VAERS and some other articles (from mainstream pubs, not conspiracy theory sites), but those honestly made me even more comfortable with my decision about my personal risk profile with the vax. The final request she made was that I at least have a family member take me in case I had an allergic reaction on the drive home. I didn't think it was necessary, but it wasn't an unreasonable request and I was happy to oblige. Both doses were a big nothing burger for me, save 24 hours of a sore deltoid.
Fast forward three months and SHE just got her first dose of vaccine.
There were a few things that helped her feel safe enough to get it herself. First, I just treated it like it was nothing and also respected her decision to have control of her own body. I didn't try to argue or pressure her to do it - I didn't even talk about it, unless she brought it up, and I just listened to her concerns and had some empathy for her. Second, nothing happened to me, no fever, no fatigue, nothing. Third, she's gotten really tired of taking precautions and being scared of this virus. Finally, she started watching videos from https://zdoggmd.com (https://zdoggmd.com) on YouTube. Rational, empathetic, and free of judgment - providing fact based information on COVID vaccines. She started forwarding me his videos and I watched a few of them. He is very pro-vax, but anti-shaming.
This model is one that is born out time and again - if you actually want to convince someone to do something, you can't force it on them. Listen to them, validate any real concerns they may have (anyone who says there are ZERO concerns with these new vaccines - or any medication for that matter - is not being sincere or is politically blinded), and give them space to make decisions for themselves. If you want more, you can look up stages of change research from Prochaska and DiClemente, as well as books like Motivational Interviewing (grad-level counseling book). The bottom line from years of research and volumes of published works is that the more you push on someone - even if it's something they already want to do - the more they will push back, even if they know it is not in their best interests.
Case in point - there have been two times in the past three months where she was close to getting a COVID shot and backed off. The first time was when NYC and LA announced vaccine mandates. The second was when Biden announced his national mandates. When given the space to think for herself, she was moving in the direction of getting vaccinated, but as soon as she started to sense govt pressure to do so, she dug in and backed away. This isn't a character flaw - this is basic human nature, and the stuff that counseling textbooks are made of. At the end of the day, she is not under any mandates at the moment, nor facing any in the immediate future (we currently live in TX), but when she was even just given the mental space to consider her options and shown respect for her autonomy and dignity as a human being, she ultimately made a decision that I believe was in her best interests.
Thank you for your story. I have a sibling that still refuses to be vaccinated, who has also backed away more forcefully after government or family pressure. I try very hard to be respectful and I truly believe mandates make things worse for many people actively considering this. It's hard to balance being respectful with ensuring I am meeting my personal/social responsibility to help inform those around me.
There should be social consequences at this point. Over a year to get educated on whatever concerns there are. We've known vaccines we're in the works, and the timeline was within range of when. Someone being a jerk to you after who knows how many times they've tried to be helpful is not a valid reason for a real adult at this point.
And frankly it is not disrespectful either. It is likely higher conflict than whomever you're talking about was expecting, particularly if you've been too gentle in the past on the same topic. But saying what your really think directly is not disrespectful.
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.i was just hoping against hope there is something out there nowdays such as super dooper reliable rhythm. I think the tools for tracking cycles are better than decades ago, but ya fotta use ‘em.
There is. There are, in fact, several different highly reliable methods to track the female reproductive cycle. It's a scandal how little this is taught in medical schools.
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So does your wife no longer believe in following the Pope? He clearly believes Catholics should get the vaccine, calling it an act of love for others.
https://www.vaticannews.va/en/pope/news/2021-08/pope-francis-appeal-covid-19-vaccines-act-of-love.html
In my circle there is a particularly Catholic person who did not accept the contents of that link. He flat out told me the Pope is an authority on matters of theology but there are some bishops better qualified in matters of virology whose voice should have more weight.
Apparently the Pope is also theologically wrong referring to getting vaxxed as an Act of Love. Or at the very least the journalist is incorrect in the translation.
There is a sizeable proportion of “fundamentalist” Catholics out there who believe the current Pope is too liberal in his interpretations of the faith. The struggle is real getting through to them, they yearn for a time when the world submitted to God first and people a long distant and unimportant second - as if that would provide order and certainty in a disordered world.
As a Catholic myself, it irritates me to be told I’m not a “real” Catholic, simply because I reject some of the more discriminatory practices, such as the lesser role of women in the church.
Just because the religion was developed in a historical period that reflected the times, does not mean we should continue to perpetuate that discrimination now. But here we are… finding common ground is difficult because to the committed Catholic there can be no shifting of positions. You can’t just simply change beliefs - faith doesn’t work that way to the faithfully committed.
Sorry if I’m of no help here, but to the OP, I do understand the problem. It’s seemingly intractable… I hope to find an answer too.
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As a Catholic myself, it irritates me to be told I’m not a “real” Catholic, simply because I reject some of the more discriminatory practices, such as the lesser role of women in the church.
1 Timothy 2:12
Judges 19
There are plenty of other examples; misogyny is laced throughout the Bible.
Edit: I never can remember where the Is & Ys go in that word.
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I can’t tell from your post whether you are pro or anti that misogyny
Edit: sorry if that sounded like I was accusing you personally of being a misogynist. I can infer from the general tone of your forum participation that you are not endorsing the passages.
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Just because the religion was developed in a historical period that reflected the times, does not mean we should continue to perpetuate that discrimination now. But here we are… finding common ground is difficult because to the committed Catholic there can be no shifting of positions. You can’t just simply change beliefs - faith doesn’t work that way to the faithfully committed.
Sorry if I’m of no help here, but to the OP, I do understand the problem. It’s seemingly intractable… I hope to find an answer too.
As an outsider, it seems pretty clear that religions adapt to reflect changes in society. Like any product or service, if you don’t offer what the customers want, they go elsewhere.
If it is the Bible we are taking about, there is so much in it it can be a sort of Rorschach test where you emphasize the bits that resonate with you and dismiss the other bits as archaic, or reflective merely of a former time that is no longer relevant. I mean, you don’t have to look hard to find churches that supported slavery in the past with biblical passages to support. Did that shift, lagging society as a whole, reflect a change in belief or something else? Similar with the Mormons conveniently getting the message from god about giving up polygamy when the US government was threatening them if they didn’t? That was a pretty core belief to that religion. In more modern times you can chart the changes in various religions on the topic of marriage equality. As the greater society changed their mind from closed-minded to open religions, though clearly not all, seemed to spend more time taking about the “god is love” parts of the Bible than the Sodom and Gomorrah parts.
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I can’t tell from your post whether you are pro or anti that misogyny
Edit: sorry if that sounded like I was accusing you personally of being a misogynist. I can infer from the general tone of your forum participation that you are not endorsing the passages.
Ha, definitely opposed
I just find it odd that my very Christian friends would rather act like those items don't exist than address the fact that Christianity is very much a product of the time period the Bible was written in, which, to me, invalidates it as "God-breathed," unless God is also a misogynist.
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You won’t hear me on the Bible is Literal soapbox any time soon!
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Your whole post sounds very condescending toward your wife. I'm not surprised she picks up on it.
You need to learn to respect her opinions and feelings, no matter how wrong you think she is. You will face far greater challenges than this in your marriage.
Like children with covid?
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Just because the religion was developed in a historical period that reflected the times, does not mean we should continue to perpetuate that discrimination now. But here we are… finding common ground is difficult because to the committed Catholic there can be no shifting of positions. You can’t just simply change beliefs - faith doesn’t work that way to the faithfully committed.
Sorry if I’m of no help here, but to the OP, I do understand the problem. It’s seemingly intractable… I hope to find an answer too.
As an outsider, it seems pretty clear that religions adapt to reflect changes in society. Like any product or service, if you don’t offer what the customers want, they go elsewhere.
If it is the Bible we are taking about, there is so much in it it can be a sort of Rorschach test where you emphasize the bits that resonate with you and dismiss the other bits as archaic, or reflective merely of a former time that is no longer relevant. I mean, you don’t have to look hard to find churches that supported slavery in the past with biblical passages to support. Did that shift, lagging society as a whole, reflect a change in belief or something else? Similar with the Mormons conveniently getting the message from god about giving up polygamy when the US government was threatening them if they didn’t? That was a pretty core belief to that religion. In more modern times you can chart the changes in various religions on the topic of marriage equality. As the greater society changed their mind from closed-minded to open religions, though clearly not all, seemed to spend more time taking about the “god is love” parts of the Bible than the Sodom and Gomorrah parts.
I’ll admit I’m not “learned” enough in bible studies to comment… it’s not that important to me but when I do listen to people who try and justify particular verses I’m always left with the impression that those people forget (deliberately or otherwise) that those passages reflected cultural practices from 2-3000 years ago.
Imagine for a second if the Bible was written today. Would be quite the different document indeed.
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Unrelated to your specific martial issue, but the use of fetal cell lines goes beyond vaccines. Your wife may want to evaluate her use of medications and other therapies that also employed these cell lines if she's avoiding vaccines for this reason. I was heartened to see that this is being highlighted in claims of religious exemption for the COVID vaccine.
https://www.webmd.com/vaccines/covid-19-vaccine/news/20210918/some-medications-also-tied-to-religious-vaccine-exemption
"...The hospital’s form includes a list of 30 common medications that used fetal cell lines during research and development. The list includes acetaminophen, albuterol, aspirin, ibuprofen, Tylenol, Pepto Bismol, Tums, Lipitor, Senokot, Motrin, Maalox, Ex-Lax, Benadryl, Sudafed, Preparation H, Claritin, Prilosec, and Zoloft.
Employees are asked to attest that they “truthfully acknowledge and affirm that my sincerely held religious belief is consistent and true” and that they won’t use the medications listed."
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So does your wife no longer believe in following the Pope? He clearly believes Catholics should get the vaccine, calling it an act of love for others.
https://www.vaticannews.va/en/pope/news/2021-08/pope-francis-appeal-covid-19-vaccines-act-of-love.html
In my circle there is a particularly Catholic person who did not accept the contents of that link. He flat out told me the Pope is an authority on matters of theology but there are some bishops better qualified in matters of virology whose voice should have more weight.
Apparently the Pope is also theologically wrong referring to getting vaxxed as an Act of Love. Or at the very least the journalist is incorrect in the translation.
There is a sizeable proportion of “fundamentalist” Catholics out there who believe the current Pope is too liberal in his interpretations of the faith. The struggle is real getting through to them, they yearn for a time when the world submitted to God first and people a long distant and unimportant second - as if that would provide order and certainty in a disordered world.
As a Catholic myself, it irritates me to be told I’m not a “real” Catholic, simply because I reject some of the more discriminatory practices, such as the lesser role of women in the church.
Just because the religion was developed in a historical period that reflected the times, does not mean we should continue to perpetuate that discrimination now. But here we are… finding common ground is difficult because to the committed Catholic there can be no shifting of positions. You can’t just simply change beliefs - faith doesn’t work that way to the faithfully committed.
Sorry if I’m of no help here, but to the OP, I do understand the problem. It’s seemingly intractable… I hope to find an answer too.
Just as an aside, there is a Catholic church literally two blocks from my house that is pre-Vatican II. Years ago I attended their service a couple of times because my mother-in-law was in town, and they do their service in Latin. It was a chance for her to hear old school Catholicism in practice.
It is a trip. Women need to cover their heads. And etc. And they’re pretty proud of themselves for being the one true Catholic Church in the area, considered renegades by Rome. When the pope was here a couple decades ago they were not invited to participate in any of that celebration and They were fine with that!
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.i was just hoping against hope there is something out there nowdays such as super dooper reliable rhythm. I think the tools for tracking cycles are better than decades ago, but ya fotta use ‘em.
There is. There are, in fact, several different highly reliable methods to track the female reproductive cycle. It's a scandal how little this is taught in medical schools.
Interesting! Yes, I would think that some physician assistance in carrying out a reliable rhythm birth control program would be helpful.
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If the idea is to go forth and multiply, why should avoiding pregancy using some natural method (possibly with the help of an app) be OK but the pill, a condom, or an IUD not? The objective is still the same. Does intention not matter?
Also, I'd be very sceptical about the chances of a mother with young kids being able to keep up the morning temperature measurements and mucus checks that the rhythm method requires. Even when doing everything right (and being normal weight, not having health issues affecting your fertility, etc.), this method is nowhere near as reliable as conventional contraceptive methods. In my region, apps used for the rhythm method have had to adjust their documention to include an explicit mention about the risk of unwanted pregnancies, and many doctors find that they shouldn't even be called contraceptives but rather fertility monitors. But then again, this is not what the OP asked about, and his wife seems to want more kids anyway.
OP, you're in a tough spot, and I can sympathize. There is already a lot of good advice in this thread and I'm happy to see you're willing to take it. My 2 cents is to go and get the vaccine, but to not spring it on your wife as a fait accompli -- I'd be pretty pissed if something I had discussed at length in my marriage would then just happen and I'd only hear about it afterwards.
We think it's the right thing to do and something that is your own decision, but your wife doesn't, so for her it would amount to getting the vaccine "behind her back". You'll have to stand your ground when it comes to your own body, but I think telling her in advance is the more respectful way to go.
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"My body, my choice". She can choose to not use birth control and choose to not get the vaccine. While I think it's selfish as there's a chance she could end up getting Covid and dying, leaving you and the kids too early, it's her choice.
You, being an adult and doing real research, have determined that you do not want to get Covid, leaving your wife and kids too early, have made the decision to get vaccinated.
Just tell her flat-out that you're getting it, period. If she doesn't like it too bad. I am very salty when it comes to people not getting vaxxed and all of my sympathy has run out long ago. Just get the damn shots for you and the kids when they are eligible.
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.i was just hoping against hope there is something out there nowdays such as super dooper reliable rhythm. I think the tools for tracking cycles are better than decades ago, but ya fotta use ‘em.
There is. There are, in fact, several different highly reliable methods to track the female reproductive cycle. It's a scandal how little this is taught in medical schools.
Interesting! Yes, I would think that some physician assistance in carrying out a reliable rhythm birth control program would be helpful.
I’m not sure what a doctor would be able to do to help aside from initial education. in my experience apps and websites are better for that. Many women go down this path as part of trying to get pregnant so they can learn the fertile time of the cycle and understand everything that is going on. There is a device called a Tempdrop (I believe) that monitors your basal body temp for you via an app. Again, I think the goal is getting pregnant rather than avoiding it, but who knows? My mother had a failure of the rhythm method long ago and at this point in my life I am so desperately set against another baby I wouldn’t risk it on anything less than high 90s % reliability.
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If the idea is to go forth and multiply, why should avoiding pregancy using some natural method (possibly with the help of an app) be OK but the pill, a condom, or an IUD not? The objective is still the same. Does intention not matter?
Not really. That is not the Catholic Church’s position to go forth and populate the earth, that was just my overstatement. I don’t see Catholics as evangelicals, spreading their faith and increasing the
Catholic population.At least, they aren’t known to be put there converting people to their faith.
I’m not Catholic, but the proscription against artificial birth control has a lot to do with the sin of perverting natural husband and wife marital relations. I don’t necessarily fault the
Catholic Church for this position, they be theology interpreters and rule makers, that is their job. But sure, I think their position about artificial birth control is unfortunate for society.
I’m not Catholic and I’m certainly not knowledgeable to argue the Pope’s point of view, and entire libraries have been written on this issue. Most modern Catholics don’t accept this church teaching about artificial birth control anyway.
As for a woman following a rhythm method and your skepticism in her ability to do that…hunh. That is ….an opinion for sure.
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If the idea is to go forth and multiply, why should avoiding pregancy using some natural method (possibly with the help of an app) be OK but the pill, a condom, or an IUD not? The objective is still the same. Does intention not matter?
Not really. That is not the Catholic Church’s position to go forth and populate the earth, that was just my overstatement. I don’t see Catholics as evangelicals, spreading their faith and increasing the
Catholic population.At least, they aren’t known to be put there converting people to their faith.
I’m not Catholic, but the proscription against artificial birth control has a lot to do with the sin of perverting natural husband and wife marital relations. I don’t necessarily fault the
Catholic Church for this position, they be theology interpreters and rule makers, that is their job. But sure, I think their position about artificial birth control is unfortunate for society.
I’m not Catholic and I’m certainly not knowledgeable to argue the Pope’s point of view, and entire libraries have been written on this issue. Most modern Catholics don’t accept this church teaching about artificial birth control anyway.
As for a woman following a rhythm method and your skepticism in her ability to do that…hunh. That is ….an opinion for sure.
That's....not what I was taught. Although I'm not Catholic, I attended Catholic school for a number of years. My wife's entire family are devout Catholics.
Just like most other branches of Christianity, Catholics do believe that the creation of new life is, more or less, a moral imperative.
https://detroitcatholic.com/news/dave-armstrong/be-fruitful-and-multiply-why-catholics-are-pro-children (https://detroitcatholic.com/news/dave-armstrong/be-fruitful-and-multiply-why-catholics-are-pro-children)
Artificial contraceptives aren't opposed because they pervert martial relations - they are opposed largely because the use of them to prevent pregnancy is the assertion that an individual or a couple has more control than the natural design of the body and the fruits that marital relations provide.
https://sacredheartwinchester.org/catholic-beliefs-about-contraception/ (https://sacredheartwinchester.org/catholic-beliefs-about-contraception/)
The rhythm method is endorsed because it uses solely the tools that couples were provided (although you could certainly argue that science was a necessary tool in the creation of fertility tracking) to allow them to engage in marital relations at their discretion. NFP is not 100% effective, for so many reasons (ask me how I know), and couples are expected to engage in marital relations even if they are following NFP, knowing that the result of that union may be a pregnancy.
Now, as it's been mentioned before (and is somewhat a central issue to OP's circumstance), there are plenty of Catholics who use contraceptives. There are also plenty who would believe that even using NFP is wrong and that a couple should only engage in relations if they are actively seeking to have another child, which is often something that such Catholics also believe is implored upon them by scripture. Your perceptions and experiences may not match what I've shared, but having spent years in Catholic education and being immersed in it through my wife's family, what I've shared are 'mainstream' Catholic views.
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As for a woman following a rhythm method and your skepticism in her ability to do that…hunh. That is ….an opinion for sure.
Er… Did I write “a woman”? I specifically referred to a mother with young kids. Who in this case, if I read correctly, has plural kids, at least one of whom is very young, and who is a primary caregiver with a husband who is the breadwinner. Lying around in bed every single morning to take your temperature (which has to be done before getting up) and feel your mucus does not sound very plausible.
Signed,
a mother with two children
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Catholics aren't known for converting people to their faith?! I....just....I guess you mean modern American Catholics don't use the same techniques as Evangelicals on the street corners handing out tracts??
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Catholics aren't known for converting people to their faith?! I....just....I guess you mean modern American Catholics don't use the same techniques as Evangelicals on the street corners handing out tracts??
I was kind of speechless at that as well.
That's literally what they do, all over the world. It's a HUGE part of their mission. Also, I grew up in Franco-Catholic Quebec where it's an enormous part of the cultural pressure to have as many babies as possible.
I'm so curious what the Catholics are like where pp lives that they got an impression that's diametrically opposed to what I've seen internationally as Catholic messaging.
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Catholics aren't known for converting people to their faith?! I....just....I guess you mean modern American Catholics don't use the same techniques as Evangelicals on the street corners handing out tracts??
I was kind of speechless at that as well.
That's literally what they do, all over the world. It's a HUGE part of their mission. Also, I grew up in Franco-Catholic Quebec where it's an enormous part of the cultural pressure to have as many babies as possible.
I'm so curious what the Catholics are like where pp lives that they got an impression that's diametrically opposed to what I've seen internationally as Catholic messaging.
i feel like in the US bible belt area i live the evangelicals are much more prominent on trying to get people to christ than anything i see from the catholic church. You know outside of all the baby making.
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Catholics aren't known for converting people to their faith?! I....just....I guess you mean modern American Catholics don't use the same techniques as Evangelicals on the street corners handing out tracts??
I was kind of speechless at that as well.
That's literally what they do, all over the world. It's a HUGE part of their mission. Also, I grew up in Franco-Catholic Quebec where it's an enormous part of the cultural pressure to have as many babies as possible.
I'm so curious what the Catholics are like where pp lives that they got an impression that's diametrically opposed to what I've seen internationally as Catholic messaging.
i feel like in the US bible belt area i live the evangelicals are much more prominent on trying to get people to christ than anything i see from the catholic church. You know outside of all the baby making.
Ah, see we don't really have a big evangelical contingent here, so the Catholics are it when it comes to pushy Christians.
That said, I'm heading out this week to go spend some time with my favourite Franciscan monks.
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Catholics aren't known for converting people to their faith?! I....just....I guess you mean modern American Catholics don't use the same techniques as Evangelicals on the street corners handing out tracts??
I was kind of speechless at that as well.
That's literally what they do, all over the world. It's a HUGE part of their mission. Also, I grew up in Franco-Catholic Quebec where it's an enormous part of the cultural pressure to have as many babies as possible.
I'm so curious what the Catholics are like where pp lives that they got an impression that's diametrically opposed to what I've seen internationally as Catholic messaging.
Large swathes of the US are predominantly protestant in culture, and the Catholic presence is muted enough that it is not very visible. For those people who grow up/live in those culturally protestant areas who haven't received a strong education in world history, colonization, etc., I imagine they are unaware of the centuries-long international Catholic mission to convert other cultures.
Also, these days in the US the majority of people going on mission trips are protestant Evangelicals.
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Catholics aren't known for converting people to their faith?! I....just....I guess you mean modern American Catholics don't use the same techniques as Evangelicals on the street corners handing out tracts??
I was kind of speechless at that as well.
That's literally what they do, all over the world. It's a HUGE part of their mission. Also, I grew up in Franco-Catholic Quebec where it's an enormous part of the cultural pressure to have as many babies as possible.
I'm so curious what the Catholics are like where pp lives that they got an impression that's diametrically opposed to what I've seen internationally as Catholic messaging.
Large swathes of the US are predominantly protestant in culture, and the Catholic presence is muted enough that it is not very visible. For those people who grow up/live in those culturally protestant areas who haven't received a strong education in world history, colonization, etc., I imagine they are unaware of the centuries-long international Catholic mission to convert other cultures.
Also, these days in the US the majority of people going on mission trips are protestant Evangelicals.
Yep I mean i'm aware of history and the catholic spreading but catholic friends are the best religious friends to hang out with b/c they never bring it up but invite me to the fish fries!
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Catholics aren't known for converting people to their faith?! I....just....I guess you mean modern American Catholics don't use the same techniques as Evangelicals on the street corners handing out tracts??
They are then? I dunno, they don’t knock on my door like the Jehovah’s witnesses. And they don’t corner me to ask if my heart knows the Lord and Have I Been Saved like the evangelicals. All they do in the odd times I venture into a Catholic Church (about once every decade) is to shake my hand and say “Peace be with you.” Seems relatively benign to me.
But yes, they have a pretty strong tradition of presence among the third world peoples to bring the word of God as well as some Western practices to them.
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See Brazil and the Philippines* for examples of very Catholic practices leading to very high populations…
Jesus would not have known these places existed, but the missionaries have obviously been quite successful at their tasks…
* as a child and a decent student of geography I was confused no end by Paul’s letter to the Phillipians. I just assumed there was a spelling mistake in the Bible and no one was courageous enough to correct it.
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Not that I don't find Catholic history and teaching fascinating, because it is, but if OP is still reading, have you tried talking to your wife about her emotions outside of the specific issues? Like "do you feel anxious a lot? Do you worry about our kids' future? Are you concerned that they will grow up with instability like you did?"
I suspect that the tenor of the media she consumes matches her feelings and makes the media more compelling to her. You can argue forever about the specifics of the vaccine but if you don't address her fear and that it's okay to be scared and that you also want your kids to be secure and her to be fully well she won't feel heard. Having young kids is hard. Being a stay-at-home parent without your own source of income requires a lot of trust, which can be hard.
I imagine that as a kid she saw the US as a safe place, and now as an adult it doesn't seem as safe, which leads many to believe it has "gone downhill" rather than their perspective having changed. If she feels like she is raising her children in a "dangerous" world, that triggers a lot of other stuff for her probably. Vaccines are something she can control, which is really important when you have a lot of anxiety. Of course from a Christian perspective you need to rely on God to relieve your fear, not on your own grip on the world anyway.
TL;DR yeah get therapy and make sure you hear her emotions not just her horrible conspiracy theories.
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As for a woman following a rhythm method and your skepticism in her ability to do that…hunh. That is ….an opinion for sure.
Er… Did I write “a woman”? I specifically referred to a mother with young kids. Who in this case, if I read correctly, has plural kids, at least one of whom is very young, and who is a primary caregiver with a husband who is the breadwinner. Lying around in bed every single morning to take your temperature (which has to be done before getting up) and feel your mucus does not sound very plausible.
Signed,
a mother with two children
This. And the other twist is that once you start paying attention, often the hormones peak to make you really horny at exactly the time in the cycle to need to avoid sex if you are trying to prevent getting pregnant. Which sucks.