Author Topic: How have you resolved marital forks in the road? No compromise possible  (Read 10151 times)

yachi

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Re: How have you resolved marital forks in the road? No compromise possible
« Reply #50 on: September 22, 2021, 10:51:10 AM »
Ok I'm confused. I'm happy to go to couples therapy and learn about some ways to improve myself, or go to solo therapy to learn how to deal with this situation better.

But I'm unclear on something. This just seems like semantics to me.

I shouldn't pretend that I have toxic behaviors that need to be addressed by therapy, correct? I might have some, sure, but if I do I'm unaware of them and believe it is disingenuous to carry on as though I want to "work on myself" like the fit wife telling her obese husband she wants to improve her shoddy health and would he like to work out with her.

To be clear, I haven't suggested to my wife that SHE should go to therapy alone for her toxic behavior. But I don't see the benefit in pretending to find fault in my own behavior beyond simply signaling openness to change the way I communicate etc.

Well, it won't do you any good to be dishonest with your therapist, but you're wrong if you think your wife's behavior toward you is independent of your behavior towards your wife, especially if the behaviors you're talking about occur during emotionally heated discussions.

You mentioned not knowing how serious she is about the line in the sand on the vaccine, well a therapist could help you raise the subject during a less heated time, or even figure out if you should raise it at all.

If you don't know what's happening in your spouses head that leads her to believe crazy theories, a therapist could help you figure out some possibilities, not to get your spouse to change, but to get you to where you can live at peace with her.

A therapist could help you prepare for and deal with any fallout from getting the vaccine without your spouse's approval (an approval which I don't see any real reason should be required in the first place).

J Boogie

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Re: How have you resolved marital forks in the road? No compromise possible
« Reply #51 on: September 22, 2021, 11:08:38 AM »
@J Boogie  I'm going to go against the line of thinking from several folks saying that this vax discussion is a sign of something bigger/deeper that you must address or you'll never have a happy marriage.

I'd at least allow the possibility that your marriage is basically fine.  Quirky, yes.  But so are lots of marriages.  I don't think you need to get all the quirks worked out in order to keep going.

The pandemic is a weird event that's thrown lots of good people off their game.  Give the world a chance to get back to normal before excavating the faultlines in your marriage.  It may turn out that those fissures sink back away from the surface in the future and become functionally unimportant.

You can have a perfectly fine marriage with someone who is very different than you, and you certainly don't need to go digging into every past disagreement and trauma to make sure you're totally aligned.  All you need is a workable day-to-day relationship for doing life.  It sounds like if you can get past this particular disagreement, you two can basically do normal life together going forward.

Hey man, you don't need to dust under the rug if you never look under the rug, am I right??

There's some truth to what you're saying, but there's also some irrational optimism baked into what you're saying.

The idea that we'll coalesce around our usual shared sources of trusted information after this doesn't seem guaranteed or even likely.

Sooner or later we'll have to develop some way to be as husband and wife approaching the unknown with different epistemologies. I'd rather do it sooner so our future disagreements can have something of a decision tree we've agreed to follow. Or if she simply can't feel loved by someone who won't act upon her concerns, maybe it just is what it is.

MaybeBabyMustache

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Re: How have you resolved marital forks in the road? No compromise possible
« Reply #52 on: September 22, 2021, 11:17:59 AM »
I don't think this will go away. This particular issue might "go away", and by that you could get vaccinated & preserve your job & your health/the health of your family (which, you said in a follow up that your wife might leave you over?). But, at some point, you will need to make shared medical decisions for your children on this topic. Or, decide whether to send them to school masked, or to have high risk friends over, or what have you. Leaving COVID alone, you both need to have trust in each other's decision making. I can't imagine parenting, let alone just being married to someone where we didn't have that shared trust.

FWIW, my husband lived through a revolution in the country he grew up in, left as a teen & had to raise himself. We see the world pretty differently, and have varied political views on nearly every topic. However, we are united in our trust & judgement of things like: science, media sources, engaging respectfully with family, handling conflict, etc. We do sometimes disagree on parenting (doesn't everyone?), but we ask questions like: which of us cares most passionately about this? Will this have any significant lasting impact on the kids? Etc, as a guide. These things matter because, as teenagers, my kids are very much a part of a discussion about things like: religion, politics, science, media sources, etc. They understand we don't always agree, & as a family, we talk about how it's okay to have different opinions, but how to use critical thinking skills, and multiple sources of verification, etc to understand things.  I'd really, really struggle with someone who was teaching my kids about conspiracy theories & to disregard trusted sources/science.

youngwildandfree

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Re: How have you resolved marital forks in the road? No compromise possible
« Reply #53 on: September 22, 2021, 11:31:46 AM »
@J Boogie  I'm going to go against the line of thinking from several folks saying that this vax discussion is a sign of something bigger/deeper that you must address or you'll never have a happy marriage.

I'd at least allow the possibility that your marriage is basically fine.  Quirky, yes.  But so are lots of marriages.  I don't think you need to get all the quirks worked out in order to keep going.

The pandemic is a weird event that's thrown lots of good people off their game.  Give the world a chance to get back to normal before excavating the faultlines in your marriage.  It may turn out that those fissures sink back away from the surface in the future and become functionally unimportant.

You can have a perfectly fine marriage with someone who is very different than you, and you certainly don't need to go digging into every past disagreement and trauma to make sure you're totally aligned.  All you need is a workable day-to-day relationship for doing life.  It sounds like if you can get past this particular disagreement, you two can basically do normal life together going forward.

My understanding is there are several topics where they can't have a discussion/disagreement without threats of separation or accusations of him being unsupportive/controlling/etc. Even if the discussion was just on vaccination that would be alarming to me. For multiple subjects that's just unsustainable and absolutely has to be addressed if OP wants a happy marriage/life.

Metalcat

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Re: How have you resolved marital forks in the road? No compromise possible
« Reply #54 on: September 22, 2021, 11:46:40 AM »
@J Boogie  I'm going to go against the line of thinking from several folks saying that this vax discussion is a sign of something bigger/deeper that you must address or you'll never have a happy marriage.

I'd at least allow the possibility that your marriage is basically fine.  Quirky, yes.  But so are lots of marriages.  I don't think you need to get all the quirks worked out in order to keep going.

The pandemic is a weird event that's thrown lots of good people off their game.  Give the world a chance to get back to normal before excavating the faultlines in your marriage.  It may turn out that those fissures sink back away from the surface in the future and become functionally unimportant.

You can have a perfectly fine marriage with someone who is very different than you, and you certainly don't need to go digging into every past disagreement and trauma to make sure you're totally aligned.  All you need is a workable day-to-day relationship for doing life.  It sounds like if you can get past this particular disagreement, you two can basically do normal life together going forward.

Healthy marriages that are going through a "quirky time" don't result in one partner threatening to leave and the other partner saying that they feel emotionally manipulated and increasingly embarrassed by their partner.

There are red flags all over this issue.

To me, I don't think the vaccination issue is even a big deal. I think the communication issues that have blown up around it are.

omachi

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Re: How have you resolved marital forks in the road? No compromise possible
« Reply #55 on: September 22, 2021, 12:14:08 PM »
So I walk away from the conversation feeling as though the only thing that would make her feel heard and respected is more or less agreement. Perhaps you can share some techniques to disagree firmly and respectfully.
Your situation is unenviable, but you've done yourself no favors along the way. You always get more of what you do. Going to the trouble to rewire your router to move it out of the bedroom because WiFi might be harmful was giving in to irrational behavior. Getting a no trespassing sign because one of the two major US political parties won was giving into irrational behavior. You can probably think of many more instances of this sort of thing that you've not bothered to stand against. Each one a small thing individually, except that it continually gave and reinforced the message that if she fought the way she fought over her irrational beliefs, she would win. Now you're in it big time and she believes, thanks to all the past evidence, that she can get you to do what she wants on this too.

I know this doesn't help you now. But you need to understand you also have a role in bringing things to this point. This isn't her being crazy. This is her executing a strategy that you've shown her time and again works. That's rational. You're the crazy one if you think that you can just undo all of that because there's a result you care about at stake now. You should've had the fight, or better yet, learned how to defuse it without capitulating, when the stakes were inconsequential.

Also know that you're going about this wrong. You can't logic somebody out of a position that they didn't logic themselves into. You're doing an admirable job with your arguments, poking holes in lines of assertion and questioning, and you're getting nowhere for it. You will not get anywhere for it. You can present all the statistics, arguments, anything you want, and it's going to fall on deaf ears.

Presumably, this is much like the argument for vaccination fell on yours. If you thought it was a good idea, you'd already have done it without your workplace mandating it. And don't think you gave into logic because of the mandate. The only thing that changed was threat of losing your job, not the facts at hand. That's not an argument. You gave into an emotion, fear. The fear of being unable to provide for your family. The fear of being unable to pursue your goals at a lower paying job.

You have a seriously narrow path to thread. You're going to have to make her feel listened to and respected while not capitulating. You're going to have to do this after reinforcing her notion that you listening to her and respecting her is just doing what she wants because that's what she wanted. Maybe you can find the emotion that's going to get her belief on this to flip, just like you flipped, if it even exists. Good luck.

MissNancyPryor

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Re: How have you resolved marital forks in the road? No compromise possible
« Reply #56 on: September 22, 2021, 12:28:58 PM »
I did a word search on the many replies and didn't see this noted, excuse me if I am re-treading something:

Get the Johnson & Johnson shot.  It is like a normal annual flu vaccine with no MRNA fancy schmancy technology, just a weak virus that you fight off.  Just like your childhood polio and whatnot.  Single shot, one and done, no worries.  Maybe the Mrs. will buy into that idea. 

Honestly for anyone still on the fence this is something you should grab ahold of before they decide it somehow "doesn't count."  In our area most sites are not offering it any longer (I have no idea why, probably political and financial motives, the usual) so you may need to go to one of the community health sites where they are emphasizing trying to capture the low-mobility folks who are less able to easily follow up with a second shot.   

I realize this doesn't address the marital discord, but these are crazy times and some extra grace toward your wife may pay off in the long run. 
« Last Edit: September 22, 2021, 12:31:14 PM by MissNancyPryor »

J Boogie

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Re: How have you resolved marital forks in the road? No compromise possible
« Reply #57 on: September 22, 2021, 12:43:29 PM »
So I walk away from the conversation feeling as though the only thing that would make her feel heard and respected is more or less agreement. Perhaps you can share some techniques to disagree firmly and respectfully.
Your situation is unenviable, but you've done yourself no favors along the way. You always get more of what you do. Going to the trouble to rewire your router to move it out of the bedroom because WiFi might be harmful was giving in to irrational behavior. Getting a no trespassing sign because one of the two major US political parties won was giving into irrational behavior. You can probably think of many more instances of this sort of thing that you've not bothered to stand against. Each one a small thing individually, except that it continually gave and reinforced the message that if she fought the way she fought over her irrational beliefs, she would win. Now you're in it big time and she believes, thanks to all the past evidence, that she can get you to do what she wants on this too.

I know this doesn't help you now. But you need to understand you also have a role in bringing things to this point. This isn't her being crazy. This is her executing a strategy that you've shown her time and again works. That's rational. You're the crazy one if you think that you can just undo all of that because there's a result you care about at stake now. You should've had the fight, or better yet, learned how to defuse it without capitulating, when the stakes were inconsequential.

Also know that you're going about this wrong. You can't logic somebody out of a position that they didn't logic themselves into. You're doing an admirable job with your arguments, poking holes in lines of assertion and questioning, and you're getting nowhere for it. You will not get anywhere for it. You can present all the statistics, arguments, anything you want, and it's going to fall on deaf ears.

Presumably, this is much like the argument for vaccination fell on yours. If you thought it was a good idea, you'd already have done it without your workplace mandating it. And don't think you gave into logic because of the mandate. The only thing that changed was threat of losing your job, not the facts at hand. That's not an argument. You gave into an emotion, fear. The fear of being unable to provide for your family. The fear of being unable to pursue your goals at a lower paying job.

You have a seriously narrow path to thread. You're going to have to make her feel listened to and respected while not capitulating. You're going to have to do this after reinforcing her notion that you listening to her and respecting her is just doing what she wants because that's what she wanted. Maybe you can find the emotion that's going to get her belief on this to flip, just like you flipped, if it even exists. Good luck.

Well, I shared the instances where I didn't insist upon my way because the stakes were low. But there have been plenty of times where she didn't get what she wanted and we compromised or more or less went with my way after some convincing. I have a hard time seeing a marriage work where one partner polices the epistemology of the other in meaningless things. Like if they didn't like standing right next to a running microwave or something. "NO! That's debunked! Stay there!"

Regarding the vaccine timing, I wasn't particularly motivated to get it given that my odds of getting hospitalized from covid are like 1 in 40,000 while my risk of getting myocarditis from the vax is like 1 in 120,000. Also data isn't too promising regarding me being significantly less likely to spread while vaxxed, so I wasn't too convinced there was a really strong case to make regarding the common good.

However a few months ago I become aware of a more pressing common good concern which is that ICU beds are in short supply in places where the unvaxxed numbers are high and this effectively makes hospitals unavailable to those who need them most. I figured many of the unvaxxed covid patients in those ICU beds made similar calculations to me and even if the odds are low I have a duty to do my best to stay out of the ICU during a time when beds are in short supply.

But I've been admittedly dragging my feet as I want to communicate to my wife that I'm not rushing this, I'm listening to her thoughts, and I'm open to any good information that might give me reason to reconsider. But predictably our conversations haven't been very fruitful as they haven't resulted in me being convinced by any of her points and interested in coming up with a supplement and treatment plan together.

J Boogie

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Re: How have you resolved marital forks in the road? No compromise possible
« Reply #58 on: September 22, 2021, 12:52:58 PM »
I did a word search on the many replies and didn't see this noted, excuse me if I am re-treading something:

Get the Johnson & Johnson shot.  It is like a normal annual flu vaccine with no MRNA fancy schmancy technology, just a weak virus that you fight off.  Just like your childhood polio and whatnot.  Single shot, one and done, no worries.  Maybe the Mrs. will buy into that idea. 

Honestly for anyone still on the fence this is something you should grab ahold of before they decide it somehow "doesn't count."  In our area most sites are not offering it any longer (I have no idea why, probably political and financial motives, the usual) so you may need to go to one of the community health sites where they are emphasizing trying to capture the low-mobility folks who are less able to easily follow up with a second shot.   

I realize this doesn't address the marital discord, but these are crazy times and some extra grace toward your wife may pay off in the long run.

Thanks for the idea Nancy. However as Catholics we are compelled to seek out the vaccines that have the least cooperation with abortion, and so the mRNA vaccines are the winner ethically as their involvement with the fetal cell lines only involved testing whereas the JNJ involves them in the production.

There's also the blood clot issue which, though statistically small, has left an impression.

Sibley

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Re: How have you resolved marital forks in the road? No compromise possible
« Reply #59 on: September 22, 2021, 01:10:23 PM »
OP, from what I can tell, you have two basic options:

-- Immediate and intensive marriage counseling, possibly with individual therapy for one or both of you.
-- Continuing in an unhealthy, dysfunctional relationship until the wheels fall off and the marriage implodes (or explodes).

The first option might actually lead to divorce. It if does, the divorce is likely to be relatively amicable, and will be less damaging for all involved. The 2nd option leads to divorce, quite possibly a nasty, traumatic one where your innocent children will suffer irrevocable damage. Therapy helps heal. It can't erase the scars.

So, as a devout Catholic as it sounds like you and your wife are, you are morally and ethically obligated to the first option.

And fast. Kids are likely going to be eligible for the Covid vaccines by the end of the year. You do not have much time before your backs are against a wall.

omachi

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Re: How have you resolved marital forks in the road? No compromise possible
« Reply #60 on: September 22, 2021, 01:27:06 PM »
Well, I shared the instances where I didn't insist upon my way because the stakes were low. But there have been plenty of times where she didn't get what she wanted and we compromised or more or less went with my way after some convincing. I have a hard time seeing a marriage work where one partner polices the epistemology of the other in meaningless things. Like if they didn't like standing right next to a running microwave or something. "NO! That's debunked! Stay there!"
You misunderstand. I'm not telling you to police her behavior and force her to do things. That'd be seriously troubling. I'm talking about you wasting your time and effort or bearing some consequence like appearing like bad neighbors, as in the instances you listed. I'm talking about you capitulating because it's easier to give in. Every time you do that, you weaken your ability to stand against the same sort of behavior when it matters. Consistency is key.

It's good that there are times where things went your way regarding irrational behavior. What's the common theme there? How do you make this one of those times?

Regarding the vaccine timing, I wasn't particularly motivated to get it given that my odds of getting hospitalized from covid are like 1 in 40,000 while my risk of getting myocarditis from the vax is like 1 in 120,000. Also data isn't too promising regarding me being significantly less likely to spread while vaxxed, so I wasn't too convinced there was a really strong case to make regarding the common good.

However a few months ago I become aware of a more pressing common good concern which is that ICU beds are in short supply in places where the unvaxxed numbers are high and this effectively makes hospitals unavailable to those who need them most. I figured many of the unvaxxed covid patients in those ICU beds made similar calculations to me and even if the odds are low I have a duty to do my best to stay out of the ICU during a time when beds are in short supply.
ICUs being full has been an issue since the start of this. The whole flattening the curve thing to reduce stress on the medical system might ring a bell. Having a lower chance of a breakthrough infection than an unvaccinated infection lowers your ability to spread while vaccinated. You're mixing up your base rates. But that's a digression. Medical professionals have pleaded with everybody to get vaccinated, for very good reasons. Rationalize your decision to be convinced only after facing job loss as you please.

But I've been admittedly dragging my feet as I want to communicate to my wife that I'm not rushing this, I'm listening to her thoughts, and I'm open to any good information that might give me reason to reconsider. But predictably our conversations haven't been very fruitful as they haven't resulted in me being convinced by any of her points and interested in coming up with a supplement and treatment plan together.
Again, going about this entirely wrong. You seem to think this is a debate, where facts and figures matter. You're in a battle for your wife's emotions. Saying you could be convinced by some fact doesn't matter. You need to listen to her fears, her worries, her deep seated concerns. You need to acknowledge that she has those. You need to understand them. You need to show sympathy. You don't have to be bound by them, but you can't just brush them away because you're unconvinced by her argument.

ixtap

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Re: How have you resolved marital forks in the road? No compromise possible
« Reply #61 on: September 22, 2021, 01:28:39 PM »
I did a word search on the many replies and didn't see this noted, excuse me if I am re-treading something:

Get the Johnson & Johnson shot.  It is like a normal annual flu vaccine with no MRNA fancy schmancy technology, just a weak virus that you fight off.  Just like your childhood polio and whatnot.  Single shot, one and done, no worries.  Maybe the Mrs. will buy into that idea. 

Honestly for anyone still on the fence this is something you should grab ahold of before they decide it somehow "doesn't count."  In our area most sites are not offering it any longer (I have no idea why, probably political and financial motives, the usual) so you may need to go to one of the community health sites where they are emphasizing trying to capture the low-mobility folks who are less able to easily follow up with a second shot.   

I realize this doesn't address the marital discord, but these are crazy times and some extra grace toward your wife may pay off in the long run.

The J&J issue seems to be simple supply and demand. People were getting it when they were taking whatever was available, but even then there was a preference for Pfizer or Moderna. A few folks still prefer the one and done idea, but not many.

Metalcat

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Re: How have you resolved marital forks in the road? No compromise possible
« Reply #62 on: September 22, 2021, 01:36:12 PM »
So I walk away from the conversation feeling as though the only thing that would make her feel heard and respected is more or less agreement. Perhaps you can share some techniques to disagree firmly and respectfully.
Your situation is unenviable, but you've done yourself no favors along the way. You always get more of what you do. Going to the trouble to rewire your router to move it out of the bedroom because WiFi might be harmful was giving in to irrational behavior. Getting a no trespassing sign because one of the two major US political parties won was giving into irrational behavior. You can probably think of many more instances of this sort of thing that you've not bothered to stand against. Each one a small thing individually, except that it continually gave and reinforced the message that if she fought the way she fought over her irrational beliefs, she would win. Now you're in it big time and she believes, thanks to all the past evidence, that she can get you to do what she wants on this too.

I know this doesn't help you now. But you need to understand you also have a role in bringing things to this point. This isn't her being crazy. This is her executing a strategy that you've shown her time and again works. That's rational. You're the crazy one if you think that you can just undo all of that because there's a result you care about at stake now. You should've had the fight, or better yet, learned how to defuse it without capitulating, when the stakes were inconsequential.

Also know that you're going about this wrong. You can't logic somebody out of a position that they didn't logic themselves into. You're doing an admirable job with your arguments, poking holes in lines of assertion and questioning, and you're getting nowhere for it. You will not get anywhere for it. You can present all the statistics, arguments, anything you want, and it's going to fall on deaf ears.

Presumably, this is much like the argument for vaccination fell on yours. If you thought it was a good idea, you'd already have done it without your workplace mandating it. And don't think you gave into logic because of the mandate. The only thing that changed was threat of losing your job, not the facts at hand. That's not an argument. You gave into an emotion, fear. The fear of being unable to provide for your family. The fear of being unable to pursue your goals at a lower paying job.

You have a seriously narrow path to thread. You're going to have to make her feel listened to and respected while not capitulating. You're going to have to do this after reinforcing her notion that you listening to her and respecting her is just doing what she wants because that's what she wanted. Maybe you can find the emotion that's going to get her belief on this to flip, just like you flipped, if it even exists. Good luck.

Well, I shared the instances where I didn't insist upon my way because the stakes were low. But there have been plenty of times where she didn't get what she wanted and we compromised or more or less went with my way after some convincing. I have a hard time seeing a marriage work where one partner polices the epistemology of the other in meaningless things. Like if they didn't like standing right next to a running microwave or something. "NO! That's debunked! Stay there!"

Regarding the vaccine timing, I wasn't particularly motivated to get it given that my odds of getting hospitalized from covid are like 1 in 40,000 while my risk of getting myocarditis from the vax is like 1 in 120,000. Also data isn't too promising regarding me being significantly less likely to spread while vaxxed, so I wasn't too convinced there was a really strong case to make regarding the common good.

However a few months ago I become aware of a more pressing common good concern which is that ICU beds are in short supply in places where the unvaxxed numbers are high and this effectively makes hospitals unavailable to those who need them most. I figured many of the unvaxxed covid patients in those ICU beds made similar calculations to me and even if the odds are low I have a duty to do my best to stay out of the ICU during a time when beds are in short supply.

But I've been admittedly dragging my feet as I want to communicate to my wife that I'm not rushing this, I'm listening to her thoughts, and I'm open to any good information that might give me reason to reconsider. But predictably our conversations haven't been very fruitful as they haven't resulted in me being convinced by any of her points and interested in coming up with a supplement and treatment plan together.

The ways in which you are responding to ideas here point to some issues that I REALLY think you should address with professional counselling.

The point that was trying to be made to you was not that you did anything wrong by giving in to your wife's irrational concerns, but just to point out to you that you helped create the dynamic that you are in now.

You are seeing her as a person with a problem, and you as the person who has to deal with her problem. You are not perceiving the two of your as engaging together on creating your current dynamic.

You may think this is a her problem, but it's a both of you problem, because both of you HAVE the problem.

There's never a point in focusing on blame in a marriage, it doesn't matter. What matters is responsibility, and because there are two of you, you are both equally responsible for the situation you are in, and equally responsible for getting out of it.

But you can only control your behaviour.

This is why I think you REALLY need some guidance in determining what your behaviour ideally should be. Because I'm telling you, from the ways you are perceiving what people are saying, and the fact that you posted this to begin with, you DO NOT know how best to behave right now.

And that's okay.

Go get some help on this. You really, really need it.

sailinlight

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Re: How have you resolved marital forks in the road? No compromise possible
« Reply #63 on: September 22, 2021, 01:41:22 PM »
This seems like a strange hill to die on to me. I get the vibe that you're not really into getting the vax but you would if it means you could keep your job. I assume as a Catholic that you realize your main allegiance is to your family. Are you considering losing your family over your job? Or do you really want to get the vaccine? I assume not if you haven't done it yet. Why don't you think about moving to a state that doesn't mandate it? Is it really because you are afraid of being out of work, or is it because you are secretly trying to find an excuse to get the vaccine? If your wife has said she'd rather move and take the loss of income that might entail, instead of the risks of the vaccine, it seems to be win-win.

J Boogie

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Re: How have you resolved marital forks in the road? No compromise possible
« Reply #64 on: September 22, 2021, 01:41:48 PM »

This is why I think you REALLY need some guidance in determining what your behaviour ideally should be. Because I'm telling you, from the ways you are perceiving what people are saying, and the fact that you posted this to begin with, you DO NOT know how best to behave right now.

And that's okay.

Go get some help on this. You really, really need it.

Yeah, that's true. I guess knowing what I have to do and knowing how to behave and communicate right now are two different things.

Thanks.

omachi

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Re: How have you resolved marital forks in the road? No compromise possible
« Reply #65 on: September 22, 2021, 01:43:42 PM »
The point that was trying to be made to you was not that you did anything wrong by giving in to your wife's irrational concerns, but just to point out to you that you helped create the dynamic that you are in now.

You are seeing her as a person with a problem, and you as the person who has to deal with her problem. You are not perceiving the two of your as engaging together on creating your current dynamic.

You may think this is a her problem, but it's a both of you problem, because both of you HAVE the problem.
Yes, that. I admire your ability to be concise. Thank you.

iris lily

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Re: How have you resolved marital forks in the road? No compromise possible
« Reply #66 on: September 22, 2021, 01:43:57 PM »
OP, I think you have a serious problem if you think THIS is the insurmountable fork in the road. I wouldn't dream of divorcing DH over this, and I dont even have children to raise.  It just isnt that big of a deal. Your REAL problem surrounding the Covid vaccine will come when your children are eligible for vaccine. You may need counseling to work through that one.

But how would you feel if your DH was ready to go nuclear about you getting it?…

We’ve been married 32 years. If he Failed in a “live and let live “attitude toward me it would’ve come out way before this. In fact it would’ve come up when we were dating.

You have no idea how independent I was and I wasn’t going to be hamstrung by somebody else.

He and I also have very different approaches to religion. And once again, it’s OK because we don’t have children so he can have whatever faith he has and I can have whatever lack of faith I have. He doesn’t require that I’m a believer, I don’t require that he’s a nonbeliever.

So if he went “nuclear “if I got a vaccine then that’s on him. He’s made a decision about our marriage, not me. He ended it, not me.

J Boogie

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Re: How have you resolved marital forks in the road? No compromise possible
« Reply #67 on: September 22, 2021, 01:46:21 PM »
This seems like a strange hill to die on to me. I get the vibe that you're not really into getting the vax but you would if it means you could keep your job. I assume as a Catholic that you realize your main allegiance is to your family. Are you considering losing your family over your job? Or do you really want to get the vaccine? I assume not if you haven't done it yet. Why don't you think about moving to a state that doesn't mandate it? Is it really because you are afraid of being out of work, or is it because you are secretly trying to find an excuse to get the vaccine? If your wife has said she'd rather move and take the loss of income that might entail, instead of the risks of the vaccine, it seems to be win-win.

No, I am interested in getting the vaccine and have been for the past couple months as I saw death numbers tick up predictably in places where vaccination rates are low.

I haven't gotten it yet because I've been trying to communicate to my wife that her input is important to me and that her perspective is considered and that I'm open to trying to work together. But as we've communicated I haven't given her any reason to think that I've become persuaded and this is upsetting her.

I have no interest in blowing up our lives and moving and switching jobs over something like this. I'd do it if my employer asked me to do something immoral, but not this.

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Re: How have you resolved marital forks in the road? No compromise possible
« Reply #68 on: September 22, 2021, 02:02:32 PM »

This is why I think you REALLY need some guidance in determining what your behaviour ideally should be. Because I'm telling you, from the ways you are perceiving what people are saying, and the fact that you posted this to begin with, you DO NOT know how best to behave right now.

And that's okay.

Go get some help on this. You really, really need it.

Yeah, that's true. I guess knowing what I have to do and knowing how to behave and communicate right now are two different things.

Thanks.

Exactly. Great insight.

That's why I said that the vaccine issue isn't even the issue, it's the catalyst that's bringing the real issue to light, which is that you and your wife don't have great mechanisms in place to deal with conflict.

The fact that she's prone to fears that you don't think are rational isn't the problem in your marriage, plenty of marriages do just fine with that as their reality. The problem is that neither of you have the very learnable communication skills to move through such a conflict.

If either, ideally both, of you do the work to learn these skills, then your marriage will be much more resilient to ANY conflict that can come up.

My marriage has been through hell and back over the past few years with DH and I frequently starting out on the opposite sides of issues, but we both have total confidence in our ability to work through things respectfully and lovingly because we've learned how to do that.

My DH has become a much better partner in a conflict since he started solo therapy. And he was total shit at conflict. Like, epic level bad. I also needed therapy to help me deal with that because I was totally unaccustomed to dealing with someone who was just frankly horrible at handling conflict. His therapist has helped him process trauma, largely to do with his abusive father, and my therapist helped me figure out how to handle my reactions to his trauma responses.

We BOTH had responsibility to learn how to modify our behaviours and reactions for better outcomes. That's how partnership works.

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Re: How have you resolved marital forks in the road? No compromise possible
« Reply #69 on: September 22, 2021, 04:30:19 PM »
But is any mechanism to deal with conflict going to matter if each party is entrenched in their position and the issue has a potentially fatal outcome?  No matter how much or how well each communicates and no matter how compassionate they are toward each other, the bottom line is that there is one decision to be made - to vaccinate or not - and no matter which option is chosen, someone will be unhappy.  Will it affect the marriage in the long term?  Time will tell.  Unfortunately, it has taken a deadly illness to reveal that you each have radically different world views.  I have no answers.  Best of luck.


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Re: How have you resolved marital forks in the road? No compromise possible
« Reply #70 on: September 22, 2021, 04:36:14 PM »

Hey man, you don't need to dust under the rug if you never look under the rug, am I right??

There's some truth to what you're saying, but there's also some irrational optimism baked into what you're saying.


I always root for marriages to work, and I think they usually can if both parties want them to.

Maybe this anti-vax issue really represents an epistemological shift on your wife's part, and you no longer understand knowledge in the same way at all.

But, just maybe it's a one off.  If it is, you could be making more out of it than it needs to be.

You do have to solve the vaccine problem.  I don't think you have to fix her theory of knowledge to do it.

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Re: How have you resolved marital forks in the road? No compromise possible
« Reply #71 on: September 22, 2021, 04:38:31 PM »
But is any mechanism to deal with conflict going to matter if each party is entrenched in their position and the issue has a potentially fatal outcome?  No matter how much or how well each communicates and no matter how compassionate they are toward each other, the bottom line is that there is one decision to be made - to vaccinate or not - and no matter which option is chosen, someone will be unhappy.  Will it affect the marriage in the long term?  Time will tell.  Unfortunately, it has taken a deadly illness to reveal that you each have radically different world views.  I have no answers.  Best of luck.

I don;t know if this is in response to my post about communication, but if you read my earlier posts for context, I already said that he should go get vaccinated and that dealing with the fallout of that is part of dealing with the conflict in their marriage.

The advice I'm giving above has no bearing on whether or not he should get vaccinated, that's not even the issue in the marriage, it's just a catalyst. Of course he should get vaccinated.

I made this *very* clear in my very first response.

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Re: How have you resolved marital forks in the road? No compromise possible
« Reply #72 on: September 22, 2021, 04:49:03 PM »

Hey man, you don't need to dust under the rug if you never look under the rug, am I right??

There's some truth to what you're saying, but there's also some irrational optimism baked into what you're saying.


I always root for marriages to work, and I think they usually can if both parties want them to.

Maybe this anti-vax issue really represents an epistemological shift on your wife's part, and you no longer understand knowledge in the same way at all.

But, just maybe it's a one off.  If it is, you could be making more out of it than it needs to be.

You do have to solve the vaccine problem. I don't think you have to fix her theory of knowledge to do it.
[/b]

FWIW, I totally agree with this.

OP, You can work on your marriage by focusing on the way you communicate when you don't agree. Ignore the vaccination issue entirely when you try to conceptualize it, because it's pointless to even focus on that.

You don't need to fix her, you need to fix how your communicate with her.

The issue is that you hold differing beliefs, which is bound to happen, and there's nothing wrong with this. Marriages can work just fine when there are differing beliefs, as long as you have effective communication and conflict management skills in place to respectfully navigate those differing beliefs.

Right now, the problem is that you seem to think they're something wrong with her, and she feels it's okay to threaten leaving you if you try and assert your own bodily autonomy. Neither response is healthy or helpful.

There is a way to respect each other and not have it turn into WW3 and talk of separating just because you disagree over a vaccine. BUT, it requires both of you to have healthier communication and conflict skills.

You don't have to agree with her beliefs to respect her, and she doesn't have to threaten to leave you when you don't agree with her beliefs. There are ways to not at all be on the same page in terms of belief, but to still get on the same page in terms of high level priorities, where each person feels like their needs are being taken seriously.

It's hard work though, and you BOTH have to do it.

The question is, do you want to, and does she?

iris lily

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Re: How have you resolved marital forks in the road? No compromise possible
« Reply #73 on: September 22, 2021, 05:52:51 PM »
As for the wife’s concern about altering DNA: I would think the Catholic Church has come up with a position on this. Don’t they usually issue guidance for Catholics of the world on topics of science and reproduction? I wouldn’t be looking at the local priest for this As I consider it to be high-level Vatican level theology.


Also, you can always get the JNJ vaccine which is not an mRNA vaccine although seems to be shaking out as less effective against Covid virus.

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Re: How have you resolved marital forks in the road? No compromise possible
« Reply #74 on: September 22, 2021, 08:30:05 PM »
As for the wife’s concern about altering DNA: I would think the Catholic Church has come up with a position on this. Don’t they usually issue guidance for Catholics of the world on topics of science and reproduction? I wouldn’t be looking at the local priest for this As I consider it to be high-level Vatican level theology.

Also, you can always get the JNJ vaccine which is not an mRNA vaccine although seems to be shaking out as less effective against Covid virus.
Part of the problem with your first paragraph is that it is an appeal to logic to someone who is no longer thinking logically.  The other part of the problem is that the Catholic conspiracy theorists are busy convincing themselves that the current Pope is not a true Pope, for some batshit reason, and that therefore anything coming out of the Vatican is false.

OP needs to find a way to communicate with his wife that will restore a partnership between them, because at the moment his wife is backed into a corner and neither of them know how to communicate so as to get her out of it.

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Re: How have you resolved marital forks in the road? No compromise possible
« Reply #75 on: September 22, 2021, 09:05:18 PM »
As for the wife’s concern about altering DNA: I would think the Catholic Church has come up with a position on this. Don’t they usually issue guidance for Catholics of the world on topics of science and reproduction? I wouldn’t be looking at the local priest for this As I consider it to be high-level Vatican level theology.


Also, you can always get the JNJ vaccine which is not an mRNA vaccine although seems to be shaking out as less effective against Covid virus.

I haven't followed this thread closely enough to know if J Boogie and wife are Catholic, but yes, Pope Francis and "Bishops across North and South America" encourage vaccination: https://www.vaticannews.va/en/pope/news/2021-08/pope-francis-appeal-covid-19-vaccines-act-of-love.html

iris lily

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Re: How have you resolved marital forks in the road? No compromise possible
« Reply #76 on: September 23, 2021, 06:34:01 AM »
As for the wife’s concern about altering DNA: I would think the Catholic Church has come up with a position on this. Don’t they usually issue guidance for Catholics of the world on topics of science and reproduction? I wouldn’t be looking at the local priest for this As I consider it to be high-level Vatican level theology.


Also, you can always get the JNJ vaccine which is not an mRNA vaccine although seems to be shaking out as less effective against Covid virus.

I haven't followed this thread closely enough to know if J Boogie and wife are Catholic, but yes, Pope Francis and "Bishops across North and South America" encourage vaccination: https://www.vaticannews.va/en/pope/news/2021-08/pope-francis-appeal-covid-19-vaccines-act-of-love.html

The OP is Catholic.

Ok,  but this doesn't address the wife’s specific concerns about altered DNA in the context of reproducing. I suppose this general seal of approval from the Pope is good, but having a proclamation from the old men in skirts where they say “go forth with a Covid vaccine and populate  the earth  and your progeny won’t suffer (Because Science!) “ might help to put her mind at ease.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2021, 07:43:09 AM by iris lily »

iris lily

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Re: How have you resolved marital forks in the road? No compromise possible
« Reply #77 on: September 23, 2021, 06:35:36 AM »

Hey man, you don't need to dust under the rug if you never look under the rug, am I right??

There's some truth to what you're saying, but there's also some irrational optimism baked into what you're saying.


I always root for marriages to work, and I think they usually can if both parties want them to.

Maybe this anti-vax issue really represents an epistemological shift on your wife's part, and you no longer understand knowledge in the same way at all.

But, just maybe it's a one off.  If it is, you could be making more out of it than it needs to be.

You do have to solve the vaccine problem.  I don't think you have to fix her theory of knowledge to do it.

This is smart! Yes!!!

DadJokes

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Re: How have you resolved marital forks in the road? No compromise possible
« Reply #78 on: September 23, 2021, 07:19:04 AM »
Mostly PTF, as this thread has been very entertaining

J Boogie, my FIL is anti-vax with regards to covid. He plans to let his employer fire him if it comes down to a mandate. Meanwhile, my MIL got vaccinated without his knowledge. Even before this issue, I wouldn't say that they had a healthy marriage, but they are devout enough in their faith that they would sooner be miserable together than get a divorce. So I understand where you are coming from, to an extent.

Have you suggested marriage counseling to your wife yet?

J Boogie

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Re: How have you resolved marital forks in the road? No compromise possible
« Reply #79 on: September 23, 2021, 08:23:35 AM »
The other part of the problem is that the Catholic conspiracy theorists are busy convincing themselves that the current Pope is not a true Pope, for some batshit reason, and that therefore anything coming out of the Vatican is false.

I could write volumes on this, but to summarize, as an orthodox (meaning I accept Church teaching as opposed to picking and choosing) Catholic I find the recently growing strain of Catholic right wing paranoia to mirror partisan divides almost exactly - where positions are adopted simply to oppose ideological opponents. It used to be that Catholics on the right would criticize Catholics on the left as "cafeteria catholics" for picking and choosing which doctrines to abide by - contraception being the elephant in the room, as just a tiny % of Catholics abide by this teaching.

But when it comes to the Church's longstanding positions on the death penalty, cooperation in promoting environmental stewardship, acceptance of immigrants and refugees, and obedience (when it doesn't violate Catholic teaching) to civil authorities who are not tyrants (tyrant being defined as someone who it would be justified or honorable to kill).

I say that this mirrors partisan divides almost exactly because either side has one foot disingenuously and conspicuously rooted in our shared project of constitutional liberal democracy and one foot dedicated toward the primary-winning red meat of dubious constitutionality.

At least left wing cafeteria Catholics are honest about their casual approach to doctrine, simply saying they're not in favor of it, rather than insisting that the doctrine-makers have been poisoned by the devil within in order to continue regarding themselves as faithful orthodox Catholics.

Ross Douthat is probably the most insightful voice on this.


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Re: How have you resolved marital forks in the road? No compromise possible
« Reply #80 on: September 23, 2021, 08:34:10 AM »
I feel for you OP.
I don't have anything brilliant to add except that I live in TX and if anything, the politics of masking/vaccines/mandates are more charged here than anywhere. The people who don't believe in the COVID vaccines feel they are experiencing just as much "tryanny" here as anywhere else -- amped by the constant political footballs of governor vs. mayors/school districts/localities lawsuits. So I highly doubt moving would help (not that you are seriously considering it).

I agree with the others who say getting the vaccine may at least move the conversation to the aftermath rather than the ongoing build up. That becomes something of a fever pitch. At least in the aftermath, you start unearthing the core issues (do you each feel respected in your individual agency, how to you move past something where you fundamentally disagree, etc.). I'd like to imagine that ~2 weeks post your second dose (in the case of Pfizer/Moderna), and submitting some sort of proof that you're still fertile, would somehow make her feel better. But that's likely wishful thinking since the deeper issue seems to be a disagreement about how to handle disagreements.

+100 on the agreement for a media diet and therapist socratic discussions on what's a reasonable way to respond when someone you love needs to act in accordance with their own values as opposed to the values you wished they held

I'm sorry you're going through this. It sounds very difficult. I feel like she could benefit from reading/learning about differentiation vs. attachment in marriage. I know early in my marriage I could be unintentionally emotionally controlling. I conflated our agreement over issues as marital health, and failed to see how demanding the same views could be a form of enmeshment. I found it threatening when we weren't in agreement on big issues. I was young (early 20s) and mostly outgrew that perspective, but I also benefited from engaging with couple's therapists and resources like the Gottman institue, David Schnarch's work on differentiation, E. Perel, etc. Maybe something like that could help.


J Boogie

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Re: How have you resolved marital forks in the road? No compromise possible
« Reply #81 on: September 23, 2021, 09:31:03 AM »
I feel for you OP.
I don't have anything brilliant to add except that I live in TX and if anything, the politics of masking/vaccines/mandates are more charged here than anywhere. The people who don't believe in the COVID vaccines feel they are experiencing just as much "tryanny" here as anywhere else -- amped by the constant political footballs of governor vs. mayors/school districts/localities lawsuits. So I highly doubt moving would help (not that you are seriously considering it).

I agree with the others who say getting the vaccine may at least move the conversation to the aftermath rather than the ongoing build up. That becomes something of a fever pitch. At least in the aftermath, you start unearthing the core issues (do you each feel respected in your individual agency, how to you move past something where you fundamentally disagree, etc.). I'd like to imagine that ~2 weeks post your second dose (in the case of Pfizer/Moderna), and submitting some sort of proof that you're still fertile, would somehow make her feel better. But that's likely wishful thinking since the deeper issue seems to be a disagreement about how to handle disagreements.

+100 on the agreement for a media diet and therapist socratic discussions on what's a reasonable way to respond when someone you love needs to act in accordance with their own values as opposed to the values you wished they held

I'm sorry you're going through this. It sounds very difficult. I feel like she could benefit from reading/learning about differentiation vs. attachment in marriage. I know early in my marriage I could be unintentionally emotionally controlling. I conflated our agreement over issues as marital health, and failed to see how demanding the same views could be a form of enmeshment. I found it threatening when we weren't in agreement on big issues. I was young (early 20s) and mostly outgrew that perspective, but I also benefited from engaging with couple's therapists and resources like the Gottman institue, David Schnarch's work on differentiation, E. Perel, etc. Maybe something like that could help.

Thanks - I'll check out those resources. I've heard of Gottman institute before and find their work pretty compelling. Thanks for sharing what you've gone through.


J Boogie

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Re: How have you resolved marital forks in the road? No compromise possible
« Reply #82 on: September 23, 2021, 10:14:25 AM »
Have you suggested marriage counseling to your wife yet?

Yes. But she is convinced that I am trying to recruit an ally to scoff at her fears. When I try to explain that I view this current impasse as a sign that our relationship needs to be better understood and worked on she doesn't seem convinced or supportive. She has however mentioned that she is open to seeing a counselor that comes with recommendations from her friends though, so it's not that she's closed off to idea - it's that she's wary of mainstream health care providers all towing the line and providing her with printouts from institutions that she doesn't place much trust in. She also says I just haven't followed through on the things we've planned on doing to strengthen our marriage, which is partially true as I am very rarely the initiator of family outings or dates, something I admittedly need to work on and mostly only end up doing after she gets upset that she is usually the one who initiates them (her fam is almost always the babysitter as the in laws live upstairs)- but we have done plenty of the things like praying together more and seeing a priest together.


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Re: How have you resolved marital forks in the road? No compromise possible
« Reply #83 on: September 23, 2021, 10:29:49 AM »
Have you suggested marriage counseling to your wife yet?

Yes. But she is convinced that I am trying to recruit an ally to scoff at her fears. When I try to explain that I view this current impasse as a sign that our relationship needs to be better understood and worked on she doesn't seem convinced or supportive. She has however mentioned that she is open to seeing a counselor that comes with recommendations from her friends though, so it's not that she's closed off to idea - it's that she's wary of mainstream health care providers all towing the line and providing her with printouts from institutions that she doesn't place much trust in. She also says I just haven't followed through on the things we've planned on doing to strengthen our marriage, which is partially true as I am very rarely the initiator of family outings or dates, something I admittedly need to work on and mostly only end up doing after she gets upset that she is usually the one who initiates them (her fam is almost always the babysitter as the in laws live upstairs)- but we have done plenty of the things like praying together more and seeing a priest together.
This description is concerning to me. Is this new behavior for your wife? Honestly would you be interested in bringing another child into this home environment as-is? The worry (unfounded as it may be) about fertility sounds like putting the cart before the horse.

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Re: How have you resolved marital forks in the road? No compromise possible
« Reply #84 on: September 23, 2021, 10:55:25 AM »
Have you suggested marriage counseling to your wife yet?

Yes. But she is convinced that I am trying to recruit an ally to scoff at her fears. When I try to explain that I view this current impasse as a sign that our relationship needs to be better understood and worked on she doesn't seem convinced or supportive. She has however mentioned that she is open to seeing a counselor that comes with recommendations from her friends though, so it's not that she's closed off to idea - it's that she's wary of mainstream health care providers all towing the line and providing her with printouts from institutions that she doesn't place much trust in. She also says I just haven't followed through on the things we've planned on doing to strengthen our marriage, which is partially true as I am very rarely the initiator of family outings or dates, something I admittedly need to work on and mostly only end up doing after she gets upset that she is usually the one who initiates them (her fam is almost always the babysitter as the in laws live upstairs)- but we have done plenty of the things like praying together more and seeing a priest together.

This is why I strongly suggest she find her own therapist first. Therapy only works as well as you are willing to engage in it. If she can't trust the marriage counsellor, it will serve no purpose and may worsen things. She needs a solid, excellently qualified therapist of her own who can make her feel supported and safe with the therapeutic process. Someone who can feel solidly in her corner alone, who can help her work through her fears and reactions. This is your best hope at dramatically improving her readiness for couple's counselling.

There's a reason couple's counselling doesn't work for most couples, because they aren't both ready for it, often go when it's far too deep into the crisis, and one or both parties desperately need individual counselling in order to even begin engaging in collaborative work.

She sounds very scared, and as her partner, your priority should be to focus on finding ways to help her feel less afraid and more empowered in her life. This doesn't mean giving in to her fears when it's not too inconvenient for you, this means expressing your need for her to get the kind of supports she needs to feel genuinely safe.

Your job is to encourage her to care for herself properly, not because she's broken and needs fixing, but because you genuinely care about her, and want her to thrive.


iris lily

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Re: How have you resolved marital forks in the road? No compromise possible
« Reply #85 on: September 23, 2021, 12:17:18 PM »
OP, sorry, didn’t read your sentence out thread about the J and J vaccine being untenable for you due to religious reasons. Just now caught that.

I echo a recent poster and that I hope you are using super Duper reliable birth control. That is always where my mind goes when I read the first couple of paragraphs of marital discord in families with children. Please do not bring any more children into this situation. That’s none of my business but can’t help but say that.




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Re: How have you resolved marital forks in the road? No compromise possible
« Reply #86 on: September 23, 2021, 12:44:12 PM »
OP, sorry, didn’t read your sentence out thread about the J and J vaccine being untenable for you due to religious reasons. Just now caught that.

I echo a recent poster and that I hope you are using super Duper reliable birth control. That is always where my mind goes when I read the first couple of paragraphs of marital discord in families with children. Please do not bring any more children into this situation. That’s none of my business but can’t help but say that.

A very central teaching of the Catholic church is that artificial birth control is not allowed. No contraceptives, no IUDs, no condoms. This is why I am one of 8 kids (well, to be fair my parents really loved kids). Only natural family planning is permissible (rhythm method and the like). As a teen, my doctor wanted to prescribe me birth control for non-reproductive reasons and my parents strictly would not allow it.

I've been following this thread with interest. I was raised in a very strictly Catholic family (never thought to call it orthodox, but based on J Boogie's description of orthodox=believing exactly what the church teaches, without variation, that's what my family was.) I don't really have a lot of insight to offer but am impressed with so much of the wisdom in this thread.

I hope that OP and OP's wife are able to start individual counseling because it sounds like it would be very beneficial for this situation.

iris lily

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Re: How have you resolved marital forks in the road? No compromise possible
« Reply #87 on: September 23, 2021, 01:48:26 PM »
OP, sorry, didn’t read your sentence out thread about the J and J vaccine being untenable for you due to religious reasons. Just now caught that.

I echo a recent poster and that I hope you are using super Duper reliable birth control. That is always where my mind goes when I read the first couple of paragraphs of marital discord in families with children. Please do not bring any more children into this situation. That’s none of my business but can’t help but say that.

A very central teaching of the Catholic church is that artificial birth control is not allowed. No contraceptives, no IUDs, no condoms. This is why I am one of 8 kids (well, to be fair my parents really loved kids). Only natural family planning is permissible (rhythm method and the like). As a teen, my doctor wanted to prescribe me birth control for non-reproductive reasons and my parents strictly would not allow it…l

Oh, I know that, .i was just hoping against hope there is something out there nowdays such as super dooper reliable rhythm. I think the tools for tracking cycles are better than decades ago, but ya fotta use ‘em.

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Re: How have you resolved marital forks in the road? No compromise possible
« Reply #88 on: September 23, 2021, 02:11:30 PM »
I know this isn’t the point of the thread but I just can’t wrap my head around people refusing simple and proven methods of improving the quality of their lives for Reasons. Vaccines are proven to reduce and avoid tremendous suffering and death. Birth control leads to empowerment and higher education and income attainment and better outcomes for children and families, not to mention assisting with a host of other medical issues. Looking over the arc of history we have enjoyed such significant improvement in quality of life for billions by such advances.

If only we humans were more rational and did a better job of weighing risks and rewards (myself included; we are all human after all). What I learned in my risk and decision making classes was to assess the various possible outcomes and the probabilities of them, and make a decision that maximizes value per your preferences. On paper it is so straightforward and clearly our minds don’t work that way at all. It makes the engineer in me want to pound my head on the table.

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Re: How have you resolved marital forks in the road? No compromise possible
« Reply #89 on: September 23, 2021, 02:34:32 PM »
So does your wife no longer believe in following the Pope?  He clearly believes Catholics should get the vaccine, calling it an act of love for others.

https://www.vaticannews.va/en/pope/news/2021-08/pope-francis-appeal-covid-19-vaccines-act-of-love.html



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Re: How have you resolved marital forks in the road? No compromise possible
« Reply #90 on: September 23, 2021, 02:53:16 PM »
I know this isn’t the point of the thread but I just can’t wrap my head around people refusing simple and proven methods of improving the quality of their lives for Reasons. Vaccines are proven to reduce and avoid tremendous suffering and death. Birth control leads to empowerment and higher education and income attainment and better outcomes for children and families, not to mention assisting with a host of other medical issues. Looking over the arc of history we have enjoyed such significant improvement in quality of life for billions by such advances.

If only we humans were more rational and did a better job of weighing risks and rewards (myself included; we are all human after all). What I learned in my risk and decision making classes was to assess the various possible outcomes and the probabilities of them, and make a decision that maximizes value per your preferences. On paper it is so straightforward and clearly our minds don’t work that way at all. It makes the engineer in me want to pound my head on the table.

Humans are not, never have been, and never will be rational creatures. We are rationalizing creatures.

Scio5

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Re: How have you resolved marital forks in the road? No compromise possible
« Reply #91 on: September 24, 2021, 12:40:55 PM »
I agree with everyone else posting to get the vaccine and then deal with the fallout (also that you both need therapy). If you need an appeal to her emotions, I would recommend the subreddit r/HermanCainAward. It has a compilation of THOUSANDS of people who posted anti-vax conspiracy theories, and then had horrifying and painful ER stays and/or died from COVID, leaving orphans and grieving friends and family. Seriously, each time you refresh the page there's a new batch. There are also posts by people who were formerly anti-vax, read the threads of how painful it is to die this way, and then changed their minds and got the vaccine. It puts a very personal face on the statistics.

youngwildandfree

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Re: How have you resolved marital forks in the road? No compromise possible
« Reply #92 on: September 24, 2021, 02:27:57 PM »
I had this situation. I waited several months to get vaccinated for a few reasons (WFH, no travel, young/healthy, wanting more data, etc), and when I finally decided to do it, I got an extreme reaction from my wife. I was pretty blown away, and backed down for the time being because I valued peace in the home. After chewing on it for a couple more weeks, I finally returned and simply said that I was going to do it and that I had an appointment to do it. She was still adamantly opposed, but had a couple of weeks herself to think about it and didn't have an extreme emotional reaction this time.

She asked me to look at VAERS and some other articles (from mainstream pubs, not conspiracy theory sites), but those honestly made me even more comfortable with my decision about my personal risk profile with the vax. The final request she made was that I at least have a family member take me in case I had an allergic reaction on the drive home. I didn't think it was necessary, but it wasn't an unreasonable request and I was happy to oblige. Both doses were a big nothing burger for me, save 24 hours of a sore deltoid.

Fast forward three months and SHE just got her first dose of vaccine.

There were a few things that helped her feel safe enough to get it herself. First, I just treated it like it was nothing and also respected her decision to have control of her own body. I didn't try to argue or pressure her to do it - I didn't even talk about it, unless she brought it up, and I just listened to her concerns and had some empathy for her. Second, nothing happened to me, no fever, no fatigue, nothing. Third, she's gotten really tired of taking precautions and being scared of this virus. Finally, she started watching videos from https://zdoggmd.com on YouTube. Rational, empathetic, and free of judgment - providing fact based information on COVID vaccines. She started forwarding me his videos and I watched a few of them. He is very pro-vax, but anti-shaming.

This model is one that is born out time and again - if you actually want to convince someone to do something, you can't force it on them. Listen to them, validate any real concerns they may have (anyone who says there are ZERO concerns with these new vaccines - or any medication for that matter - is not being sincere or is politically blinded), and give them space to make decisions for themselves. If you want more, you can look up stages of change research from Prochaska and DiClemente, as well as books like Motivational Interviewing (grad-level counseling book). The bottom line from years of research and volumes of published works is that the more you push on someone - even if it's something they already want to do - the more they will push back, even if they know it is not in their best interests.

Case in point - there have been two times in the past three months where she was close to getting a COVID shot and backed off. The first time was when NYC and LA announced vaccine mandates. The second was when Biden announced his national mandates. When given the space to think for herself, she was moving in the direction of getting vaccinated, but as soon as she started to sense govt pressure to do so, she dug in and backed away. This isn't a character flaw - this is basic human nature, and the stuff that counseling textbooks are made of. At the end of the day, she is not under any mandates at the moment, nor facing any in the immediate future (we currently live in TX), but when she was even just given the mental space to consider her options and shown respect for her autonomy and dignity as a human being, she ultimately made a decision that I believe was in her best interests.

Thank you for your story. I have a sibling that still refuses to be vaccinated, who has also backed away more forcefully after government or family pressure. I try very hard to be respectful and I truly believe mandates make things worse for many people actively considering this. It's hard to balance being respectful with ensuring I am meeting my personal/social responsibility to help inform those around me.

Darian

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Re: How have you resolved marital forks in the road? No compromise possible
« Reply #93 on: September 24, 2021, 07:18:39 PM »
I'm so sorry this is happening to you. Fellow Catholic here, and mom of young kids.
You say this anti-vax/paranoid phase started happening around 18 months ago, which would be shortly after the birth of your youngest child. I second others that she may be suffering from untreated post-partum depression or anxiety. Being a SAHM is HARD with young kids. The isolation may contribute to her getting sucked into the internet conspiracy theory wormholes.
I would ask:
1. Do you give her a break for any regular activities that don't involve the kids (e.g. classes at the gym, weekly happy hour with friends)
2. Do you ever take initiative to plan fun outings (e.g. date nights, trips to the zoo with the kids, vacation) Or is that always on her?
3. Is there a history of miscarriage, trouble conceiving, etc. that may be at the root of her fertility paranoia? Of course fine if you don't want to post this all over the internet, but something to consider...
4. You said she was open to counseling. Are you putting it on her to set up the therapy? If she's comfortable going with recommendations from friends, you ask for a list of names and then take care of the rest yourself. This would also allow you to google them beforehand and pick the one with the best credentials, who is unlikely to be a conspiracy theorist themselves.

dandarc

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Re: How have you resolved marital forks in the road? No compromise possible
« Reply #94 on: September 24, 2021, 07:58:14 PM »
I had this situation. I waited several months to get vaccinated for a few reasons (WFH, no travel, young/healthy, wanting more data, etc), and when I finally decided to do it, I got an extreme reaction from my wife. I was pretty blown away, and backed down for the time being because I valued peace in the home. After chewing on it for a couple more weeks, I finally returned and simply said that I was going to do it and that I had an appointment to do it. She was still adamantly opposed, but had a couple of weeks herself to think about it and didn't have an extreme emotional reaction this time.

She asked me to look at VAERS and some other articles (from mainstream pubs, not conspiracy theory sites), but those honestly made me even more comfortable with my decision about my personal risk profile with the vax. The final request she made was that I at least have a family member take me in case I had an allergic reaction on the drive home. I didn't think it was necessary, but it wasn't an unreasonable request and I was happy to oblige. Both doses were a big nothing burger for me, save 24 hours of a sore deltoid.

Fast forward three months and SHE just got her first dose of vaccine.

There were a few things that helped her feel safe enough to get it herself. First, I just treated it like it was nothing and also respected her decision to have control of her own body. I didn't try to argue or pressure her to do it - I didn't even talk about it, unless she brought it up, and I just listened to her concerns and had some empathy for her. Second, nothing happened to me, no fever, no fatigue, nothing. Third, she's gotten really tired of taking precautions and being scared of this virus. Finally, she started watching videos from https://zdoggmd.com on YouTube. Rational, empathetic, and free of judgment - providing fact based information on COVID vaccines. She started forwarding me his videos and I watched a few of them. He is very pro-vax, but anti-shaming.

This model is one that is born out time and again - if you actually want to convince someone to do something, you can't force it on them. Listen to them, validate any real concerns they may have (anyone who says there are ZERO concerns with these new vaccines - or any medication for that matter - is not being sincere or is politically blinded), and give them space to make decisions for themselves. If you want more, you can look up stages of change research from Prochaska and DiClemente, as well as books like Motivational Interviewing (grad-level counseling book). The bottom line from years of research and volumes of published works is that the more you push on someone - even if it's something they already want to do - the more they will push back, even if they know it is not in their best interests.

Case in point - there have been two times in the past three months where she was close to getting a COVID shot and backed off. The first time was when NYC and LA announced vaccine mandates. The second was when Biden announced his national mandates. When given the space to think for herself, she was moving in the direction of getting vaccinated, but as soon as she started to sense govt pressure to do so, she dug in and backed away. This isn't a character flaw - this is basic human nature, and the stuff that counseling textbooks are made of. At the end of the day, she is not under any mandates at the moment, nor facing any in the immediate future (we currently live in TX), but when she was even just given the mental space to consider her options and shown respect for her autonomy and dignity as a human being, she ultimately made a decision that I believe was in her best interests.

Thank you for your story. I have a sibling that still refuses to be vaccinated, who has also backed away more forcefully after government or family pressure. I try very hard to be respectful and I truly believe mandates make things worse for many people actively considering this. It's hard to balance being respectful with ensuring I am meeting my personal/social responsibility to help inform those around me.
There should be social consequences at this point. Over a year to get educated on whatever concerns there are. We've known vaccines we're in the works, and the timeline was within range of when. Someone being a jerk to you after who knows how many times they've tried to be helpful is not a valid reason for a real adult at this point.

And frankly it is not disrespectful either. It is likely higher conflict than whomever you're talking about was expecting, particularly if you've been too gentle in the past on the same topic. But saying what your really think directly is not disrespectful.

AMandM

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Re: How have you resolved marital forks in the road? No compromise possible
« Reply #95 on: September 28, 2021, 07:06:37 PM »
.i was just hoping against hope there is something out there nowdays such as super dooper reliable rhythm. I think the tools for tracking cycles are better than decades ago, but ya fotta use ‘em.

There is. There are, in fact, several different highly reliable methods to track the female reproductive cycle. It's a scandal how little this is taught in medical schools.

marty998

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Re: How have you resolved marital forks in the road? No compromise possible
« Reply #96 on: September 28, 2021, 10:27:39 PM »
So does your wife no longer believe in following the Pope?  He clearly believes Catholics should get the vaccine, calling it an act of love for others.

https://www.vaticannews.va/en/pope/news/2021-08/pope-francis-appeal-covid-19-vaccines-act-of-love.html

In my circle there is a particularly Catholic person who did not accept the contents of that link. He flat out told me the Pope is an authority on matters of theology but there are some bishops better qualified in matters of virology whose voice should have more weight.

Apparently the Pope is also theologically wrong referring to getting vaxxed as an Act of Love. Or at the very least the journalist is incorrect in the translation.

There is a sizeable proportion of “fundamentalist” Catholics out there who believe the current Pope is too liberal in his interpretations of the faith. The struggle is real getting through to them, they yearn for a time when the world submitted to God first and people a long distant and unimportant second - as if that would provide order and certainty in a disordered world.

As a Catholic myself, it irritates me to be told I’m not a “real” Catholic, simply because I reject some of the more discriminatory practices, such as the lesser role of women in the church.

Just because the religion was developed in a historical period that reflected the times, does not mean we should continue to perpetuate that discrimination now. But here we are… finding common ground is difficult because to the committed Catholic there can be no shifting of positions. You can’t just simply change beliefs - faith doesn’t work that way to the faithfully committed.

Sorry if I’m of no help here, but to the OP, I do understand the problem. It’s seemingly intractable… I hope to find an answer too.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2021, 10:29:56 PM by marty998 »

DadJokes

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Re: How have you resolved marital forks in the road? No compromise possible
« Reply #97 on: September 29, 2021, 06:57:45 AM »
As a Catholic myself, it irritates me to be told I’m not a “real” Catholic, simply because I reject some of the more discriminatory practices, such as the lesser role of women in the church.


1 Timothy 2:12
Judges 19

There are plenty of other examples; misogyny is laced throughout the Bible.

Edit: I never can remember where the Is & Ys go in that word.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2021, 01:29:08 PM by DadJokes »

MudPuppy

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Re: How have you resolved marital forks in the road? No compromise possible
« Reply #98 on: September 29, 2021, 07:16:04 AM »
I can’t tell from your post whether you are pro or anti that misogyny


Edit: sorry if that sounded like I was accusing you personally of being a misogynist. I can infer from the general tone of your forum participation that you are not endorsing the passages.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2021, 07:19:43 AM by MudPuppy »

ysette9

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How have you resolved marital forks in the road? No compromise possible
« Reply #99 on: September 29, 2021, 01:04:57 PM »

Just because the religion was developed in a historical period that reflected the times, does not mean we should continue to perpetuate that discrimination now. But here we are… finding common ground is difficult because to the committed Catholic there can be no shifting of positions. You can’t just simply change beliefs - faith doesn’t work that way to the faithfully committed.

Sorry if I’m of no help here, but to the OP, I do understand the problem. It’s seemingly intractable… I hope to find an answer too.
As an outsider, it seems pretty clear that religions adapt to reflect changes in society. Like any product or service, if you don’t offer what the customers want, they go elsewhere.

If it is the Bible we are taking about, there is so much in it it can be a sort of Rorschach  test where you emphasize the bits that resonate with you and dismiss the other bits as archaic, or reflective merely of a former time that is no longer relevant. I mean, you don’t have to look hard to find churches that supported slavery in the past with biblical passages to support. Did that shift, lagging society as a whole, reflect a change in belief or something else? Similar with the Mormons conveniently getting the message from god about giving up polygamy when the US government was threatening them if they didn’t? That was a pretty core belief to that religion. In more modern times you can chart the changes in various religions on the topic of marriage equality. As the greater society changed their mind from closed-minded to open religions, though clearly not all, seemed to spend more time taking about the “god is love” parts of the Bible than the Sodom and Gomorrah parts.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2021, 01:08:57 PM by ysette9 »