Author Topic: Electric heating for 100 year old house  (Read 2717 times)

mozar

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Electric heating for 100 year old house
« on: January 04, 2021, 06:03:22 PM »
Hello,
I currently have baseboard electric heat (no central heat or central ac or ductwork, I have an attic/crawlspace). It's on a thermostat that turns the heat on from 6pm to 10pm every night for the living room. There are baseboard heaters in each bedroom. And an electric fan heater in the bathroom and kitchen. I keep the one in my bedroom on all day since now I'm home all day.

There is no "low setting." How it works is that it gets up to temperature then turns completely off. This gets very expensive. I decided against a mini split 5 years ago because the one the hoa was offering to install didn't work below 40 degrees.
There are times when I go downstairs and it is bone chillingly cold (in the afternoon). I have been putting on a coat to go downstairs but, that's not really a great way to live.

When I tried leaving an oil radiator heater on low my electric bills were 500+ a month. I'm working on a solution for the windows, and I'm tightening up the doors and outlets.

Any ideas? Or do I just have to wait until Elon Musk creates an hvac system?

Edit: my whole house is 920 sq ft. My kitchen is about 50 sq ft. In the mid-Atlantic area.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2021, 06:08:19 PM by mozar »

jrhampt

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Re: Electric heating for 100 year old house
« Reply #1 on: January 04, 2021, 06:33:02 PM »
I also have a 100 year old house, but it’s only 600ish sq ft...I like electric heaters and an electric blanket in whatever room I’m using.  And warm socks.  Make sure to turn them off if you’re not there though.  I’d also add insulation to the attic and get some window coverings to insulate the place (thermal curtains etc).
« Last Edit: January 04, 2021, 06:38:55 PM by jrhampt »

mozar

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Re: Electric heating for 100 year old house
« Reply #2 on: January 04, 2021, 06:57:02 PM »
I forgot to add that the attic is insulated.
Quote
I like electric heaters
Do you have a preferred type of electric heater?

nereo

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Re: Electric heating for 100 year old house
« Reply #3 on: January 04, 2021, 07:03:42 PM »
I’m a bit confused when you talk about your HOA and say “wouldn’t work below 40ºF”.
Are you really confined by those choices, and do they suck tha much?

FWIW, I own a 120 year old home, and we recently installed two Fujitsu mini-split heat pumps.  Both will work down o -17ºF, and work beautifully at temperatures at temperatures above 0. I live in northern New England (climate zone 6).

Given what you’ve described (old house, no ductwork), I’d revisit today’s mini-split heat pumps. Newer models have better SEER ratings and work down to sub-freezing temperatures quite well.

jrhampt

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Re: Electric heating for 100 year old house
« Reply #4 on: January 04, 2021, 07:21:01 PM »
I forgot to add that the attic is insulated.
Quote
I like electric heaters
Do you have a preferred type of electric heater?

I’m sure the attic is already insulated but we always add more insulation when we move into a house.  Plus an attic hat over the attic door.  For electric heaters, I use whatever’s on sale at Costco :-)

mozar

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Re: Electric heating for 100 year old house
« Reply #5 on: January 04, 2021, 07:41:04 PM »
Quote
Fujitsu mini-split heat pumps

This looks like a good option. Yes, what the hoa was offering was that bad, and they were charging 7k for it! Did you buy it directly from Fujitsu? Why did you only buy two? And who installed it for you?

Quote
I’m sure the attic is already insulated but we always add more insulation when we move into a house.  Plus an attic hat over the attic door.
My hoa did an upgrade for all the units 5 years ago. I think I went with the mid tier option. Blow in insulation but not the whole attic. I think you're talking about an attic hatch cover? I have that too. And I added insulation under the siding.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2021, 07:46:58 PM by mozar »

Fishindude

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Re: Electric heating for 100 year old house
« Reply #6 on: January 05, 2021, 07:22:30 AM »
It's an old house which was never set up with ductwork, probably originally heated with radiant coal or a coal or oil boiler.   The cheap and easy way to upgrade the heating system was baseboard electric, as it's much easier to run wires than it is to run duct.   Unfortunately, electric heat can be pretty expensive and pretty inefficient as well.

If you are there for the long term, I'd start thinking about a total HVAC system replacement and figure out a way to get some conventional forced air gas heat / electric AC with ductwork installed.   Might get interesting figuring out where to put equipment, run ductwork, etc. but there is almost always a way it can be accomplished.   Even exposed ductwork doesn't look to bad if installed neatly and professionally.

nereo

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Re: Electric heating for 100 year old house
« Reply #7 on: January 05, 2021, 08:28:50 AM »
Quote
Fujitsu mini-split heat pumps

This looks like a good option. Yes, what the hoa was offering was that bad, and they were charging 7k for it! Did you buy it directly from Fujitsu? Why did you only buy two? And who installed it for you?

We got quotes from four different installers and went with a local company that specializes in heat pumps. All told our costs were $5,300 for two 12,000BTU fujitsu minisplits.  That included everything, including some new electrical (sub-panel and new external outlets to meet code).  My home is 2,000 sqft two-story balloon construction built 1900.  It's been modified a lot over the years.

We went with two because it was the best solution for our house - one downstairs and one upstairs. Together they can keep our home a comfortable temperature when it gets to 4ºF (the coldest it's been since installation), as well as provide A/C during 95ºF heat (about as warm as it gets in my neck of the woods).

For us, it made more sense to go with two compressors and two head units (i.e. single room mini splits).  However it might make sense for you to multi-room mini-split off a single compressor - I know most manufacturers after multi-room that will power up to five head units.

To facilitate air movement without duct-work we use a couple of door fans, which do a surprisingly good job and are very cheap.  I have plans to add a through-wall fan later on into one of the bedrooms that is the farthest from the heat pump. There are ways of adding duct work to old houses though it's highly situation dependent.  One method we pondered and then rejected was to build run duct-0work along the corner of the ceiling and then cover it with a soffit.  Ultimately it proved un-neccessary in our situation, and I'm glad we didn't go that route.

mozar

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Re: Electric heating for 100 year old house
« Reply #8 on: January 05, 2021, 11:35:23 AM »
@nereo I've never heard of a door fan. How cute! Did you ever consider getting an erv (air exchanger) to get more air moving?

nereo

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Re: Electric heating for 100 year old house
« Reply #9 on: January 05, 2021, 02:36:52 PM »
@nereo I've never heard of a door fan. How cute! Did you ever consider getting an erv (air exchanger) to get more air moving?

For us it hasn’t been necessary.
The fan from the heat pump is sufficient to move heat all through or open plan downstairs, and our upstairs rooms are small enough that the door fans are more than enough.

But that’s where the rub is - it’s highly dependent on the particulars of each home, including layout, climate, insulation, cubic footage, solar gain and a few other factors. I wouldn’t pretend mini splits are the best solution for all homes - they were just the best option (IMO) for our situation. In general they work great for older homes with no existing HVAC

Interestingly, the designs we are considering for our next build don’t rely on HVAC either, but radiant floor heating. Extensive duct work carried their own problems. For a while builders tried to solve all heating/cooling issues by going with oversized ducts and comically large units.

mozar

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Re: Electric heating for 100 year old house
« Reply #10 on: January 05, 2021, 03:20:22 PM »
Quote
Interestingly, the designs we are considering for our next build don’t rely on HVAC either, but radiant floor heating. Extensive duct work carried their own problems. For a while builders tried to solve all heating/cooling issues by going with oversized ducts and comically large units.
I'm thinking of doing this for the bathroom and kitchen renovation. But not for the living room and dining room because of the original floors.

Alternatepriorities

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Re: Electric heating for 100 year old house
« Reply #11 on: January 05, 2021, 03:56:53 PM »
Wood Stove!

Partly kidding, I know they are not for everyone or every place, but mine is awesome to sit next to all winter while I work!

I didn't see any mention of insulating better. Is insulating the house out because of the HOA? It's become pretty common up here to add a layer of insulation over the outer sheathing and then put new siding on over that. I attended a presentation by the state's cold climate research group before Covid and helped my sister and BIL do it on their house. Blowing more insulation into the attic is also pretty straight forward.

The idea of spending $500 a month for heating about made my head explode... We haven't broken $100 a month yet this winter and I'm mostly working in shorts because it's too warm next to the stove. The house is about 2k sq ft including the garage and I've been dreaming about downsizing by building my own place now that we are FI. I think I will have to look into a heat pump for minimum viable heating with the wood stove for comfort if I do.

alsoknownasDean

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Re: Electric heating for 100 year old house
« Reply #12 on: January 05, 2021, 05:26:06 PM »
FWIW, I own a 120 year old home, and we recently installed two Fujitsu mini-split heat pumps.  Both will work down o -17ºF, and work beautifully at temperatures at temperatures above 0. I live in northern New England (climate zone 6).

Given what you’ve described (old house, no ductwork), I’d revisit today’s mini-split heat pumps. Newer models have better SEER ratings and work down to sub-freezing temperatures quite well.

I had three Mitsubishi Heavy Industries split systems installed last year. They work well, but I've not used them below about -1C/30F so I can't comment on colder temps. :)

Energy use isn't too bad, although I've been working from home and in the winter was in the back room all day with the smallest, most efficient of the units. Bonus is of course the aircon in the summer.

OP, is your house on a concrete slab or on stumps? Are there any air leaks, or poor insulation?
« Last Edit: January 05, 2021, 05:29:58 PM by alsoknownasDean »

nereo

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Re: Electric heating for 100 year old house
« Reply #13 on: January 05, 2021, 06:27:01 PM »
+1 to additional insulation, but even before that is air sealing.  Seriously, a few cans of GreatStuff and several tubes of caulk can have an unexpectedly large reduction on your heating/cooling bills, and all for <$50.

Air seal first.  Then insulate. Those will pay back for themselves in a matter of months. Then worry about heating/cooling systems (all of which assumes you have proper vapor/water management, which is paramount).

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Re: Electric heating for 100 year old house
« Reply #14 on: January 05, 2021, 06:45:32 PM »
+1 to additional insulation, but even before that is air sealing.  Seriously, a few cans of GreatStuff and several tubes of caulk can have an unexpectedly large reduction on your heating/cooling bills, and all for <$50.

Air seal first.  Then insulate. Those will pay back for themselves in a matter of months. Then worry about heating/cooling systems (all of which assumes you have proper vapor/water management, which is paramount).

That's a great point about air sealing. It's a decent bet that there is no insulation/sealing around the window frames even if there is some in the walls. I've had decent success popping off the trim without damaging it and sealing around the frames.

Installing foam board outside the walls will create a vapor barrier. I kind of assumed an 100 year old house wouldn't have one. If there is one already in place it's worth doing some research on how to avoid a double vapor barrier.

mozar

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Re: Electric heating for 100 year old house
« Reply #15 on: January 06, 2021, 11:29:15 AM »
Wood stove is out because I have asthma. But an electric one is definitely in my future!

Quote
OP, is your house on a concrete slab or on stumps? Are there any air leaks, or poor insulation?

It's a brick foundation with a crawlspace. A lot of air leaks. It's like whack-a-mole in here. As soon as I think I got them all, I find more.

There is exterior insulation under the siding and blown in insulation the attic. If I remember correctly it's R-38.


nereo

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Re: Electric heating for 100 year old house
« Reply #16 on: January 06, 2021, 11:41:52 AM »
Wood stove is out because I have asthma. But an electric one is definitely in my future!

Quote
OP, is your house on a concrete slab or on stumps? Are there any air leaks, or poor insulation?

It's a brick foundation with a crawlspace. A lot of air leaks. It's like whack-a-mole in here. As soon as I think I got them all, I find more.

There is exterior insulation under the siding and blown in insulation the attic. If I remember correctly it's R-38.

I know what you mean about playing whack-a-mole with air-sealing.  A blower-door test will help spot new leaks, as will looking for signs of air infiltration (e.g. dirty spots near trim where cold air condenses). I spent the better part of a year with a re-usable foam gun sealing gaps and penetrations in the exterior walls.  I've reduced our blower-door number by over 40%, but there's still gains to be had.

You say you are 'mid-Atlantic' which probably means you are climate zone 4.  If so (and even if you are ≥3) you should take your attic insulation up to R-60, blown cellulose. Cost-benefit wise it's a no-brainer, and it's pretty cheap to do.  If you are at R-38 you are looking at add about 6-7" of additional insulation.  Estimating from your states square-footage - if your attic is 450 sqft that's 18-20 bags, at a cost of about $200.  Blower rental is free at most stores.

mozar

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Re: Electric heating for 100 year old house
« Reply #17 on: January 06, 2021, 11:59:03 AM »
I am in climate 4. R-60 wow! There is a place in the center that was insulated to r-29, the sides of the attic is r-38 should I upgrade the center too?

This website has a picture of what my attic looks like under the title "insulate floor" https://jmofnb.com/insulation/attic-insulation/

How difficult is it to get a blower-door test?
« Last Edit: January 06, 2021, 12:16:23 PM by mozar »

nereo

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Re: Electric heating for 100 year old house
« Reply #18 on: January 06, 2021, 12:47:18 PM »

Source: epa energy star

nereo

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Re: Electric heating for 100 year old house
« Reply #19 on: January 06, 2021, 12:53:58 PM »
I am in climate 4. R-60 wow! There is a place in the center that was insulated to r-29, the sides of the attic is r-38 should I upgrade the center too?

This website has a picture of what my attic looks like under the title "insulate floor" https://jmofnb.com/insulation/attic-insulation/

How difficult is it to get a blower-door test?

Blower for tests are dirt simple, and in some states free or subsidized. If not they typically cost about $100. If you can get one coupled with a thermal imaging camera it really highlights leaks

Yes, insulate it all to R60. There really is no danger going over (within reason). If you went absurdly high you could run the risk of the ceiling buckling, but I’ve seen normal attics go to r100 with no problems. Standard 1/2” drywall can support R60 of blown cellulose easily.  Lath and plaster can hold more.

habanero

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Re: Electric heating for 100 year old house
« Reply #20 on: January 06, 2021, 01:17:05 PM »
I had three Mitsubishi Heavy Industries split systems installed last year. They work well, but I've not used them below about -1C/30F so I can't comment on colder temps. :)


The high-end heat pumps work pretty well for lower temperatures as well, but as it gets colder the COP (Coefficient of performace, how much heat you get out per unit of electric energy used) drops off. For the ones sold here (can get pretty cold in the winter) you get aboout 2 units of heat for each unit of electricity at -15C outside temp. At  around 0C you get close to 3 times. They are best for climate where it never gets really cold, or at least does not stay really cold for a long time. They provide more energy than put in down to around -30C, but the obvious problem is they get less efficient the more heat you need due to low outside temp. When it gets that cold the energy savings compared to a pure electric heater is pretty much zero.

The high-end models from Panasonic, Daikin and Mitsubishi are pretty popular here in the colder areas.

They generally call them some variation on "Nordic edition" over here, guess they would be "Canadian edition" in North America;)

mozar

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Re: Electric heating for 100 year old house
« Reply #21 on: January 06, 2021, 01:31:22 PM »
Quote
Blower for tests are dirt simple, and in some states free or subsidized. If not they typically cost about $100. If you can get one coupled with a thermal imaging camera it really highlights leaks

Yes, insulate it all to R60. There really is no danger going over (within reason). If you went absurdly high you could run the risk of the ceiling buckling, but I’ve seen normal attics go to r100 with no problems. Standard 1/2” drywall can support R60 of blown cellulose easily.  Lath and plaster can hold more.

Thanks!

nereo

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Re: Electric heating for 100 year old house
« Reply #22 on: January 06, 2021, 01:49:45 PM »
I had three Mitsubishi Heavy Industries split systems installed last year. They work well, but I've not used them below about -1C/30F so I can't comment on colder temps. :)


The high-end heat pumps work pretty well for lower temperatures as well, but as it gets colder the COP (Coefficient of performace, how much heat you get out per unit of electric energy used) drops off. For the ones sold here (can get pretty cold in the winter) you get aboout 2 units of heat for each unit of electricity at -15C outside temp. At  around 0C you get close to 3 times. They are best for climate where it never gets really cold, or at least does not stay really cold for a long time. They provide more energy than put in down to around -30C, but the obvious problem is they get less efficient the more heat you need due to low outside temp. When it gets that cold the energy savings compared to a pure electric heater is pretty much zero.

The high-end models from Panasonic, Daikin and Mitsubishi are pretty popular here in the colder areas.

They generally call them some variation on "Nordic edition" over here, guess they would be "Canadian edition" in North America;)
This is true but not applicable to the op who is in climate zone 4. Temperatures there rarely drop below -10°C (14°f) and the bulk of the winter temps hover between -5 and +5C.  Then there is also the question of what alternatives to use (the choices are limited in older buildings). Even with the diminished COP head pumps are more efficient than alternatives and lower cost than almost everything save wood burning stoves. Baseboard electric can never exceed 100%. Natural gas is less than that.

habanero

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Re: Electric heating for 100 year old house
« Reply #23 on: January 06, 2021, 01:58:13 PM »
-5 to +5 would be close to ideal for a heat pump. A tiny bit on the cold side, but energy savings should be substantial with a good pump.

They are very popular here as they are pretty cheap to buy and install and can be retrofitted into pretty much any house without much work. It is generally considered to be the only major energy saving option that really pays off here. Adding insulation is all well and good, but due to the high cost the payback time is probably somewhere around infinity. This apart from small, cheap and simple stuff like preventing obvious heat leakage around windows etc. My house is old so I am aware of most of the issues in that regard.

I want one myself, but my GF doesn't so we don't have one. Also the house is not ideal for it as it has several smallish rooms so heat circulation would not be the best and where it would be best to put it we have the fireplace anyway so heating that area on the coldest days isn't a problem and we get free firewood. An open floorplan is a big advantage, unless using more indoor units.

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Re: Electric heating for 100 year old house
« Reply #24 on: January 06, 2021, 02:28:08 PM »
I’m surprised to hear you say insulation costs where you are make the ROI prohibitive. When I ran the numbers for our place in New England adding insulation was one of the fastest payback periods after sealing leaks. We put over $800 in blown cellulose into our attic but the reduction of energy bills we made that back our first winter.

mozar

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Re: Electric heating for 100 year old house
« Reply #25 on: January 06, 2021, 02:31:35 PM »
Quote
Also the house is not ideal for it as it has several smallish rooms so heat circulation would not be the best

My house is similar, I'm glad you explained that.

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Re: Electric heating for 100 year old house
« Reply #26 on: January 06, 2021, 02:36:49 PM »
Baseboard electric can never exceed 100%. Natural gas is less than that.

At least electric baseboard is never less than 100% either... unless of course the electricity is coming from a gas plant, then it's likely more efficient to just use the gas for heat directly.

habanero

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Re: Electric heating for 100 year old house
« Reply #27 on: January 06, 2021, 02:43:53 PM »
I’m surprised to hear you say insulation costs where you are make the ROI prohibitive. When I ran the numbers for our place in New England adding insulation was one of the fastest payback periods after sealing leaks. We put over $800 in blown cellulose into our attic but the reduction of energy bills we made that back our first winter.

If I were to add a substantial amount of insulation to the house it would be a major contracting job. The previous owners did it (outer walls + extra in roof of top floor) so I have some. The general rule here is that you only do it if you have to replace the outside wooden panels anyway - as they will have to come off for wall insulation to be added in any meaningful amount. Thus it becomes very expensive and as electricity is relatively cheap here the ROI is horrible. Something simpler, like adding insulation to the attic would be another story as the work is much less invasive. 

The way most houses are built here you can't just blow insulation into the walls. Most houses are built in wood and the outer walls of my house is solid wood so there is no space to blow anything. So the method for adding wall insulation is to take off outer panels, add some say 2x4" to the house to make some space, add insulation in this new space and then refitting outer wall.

This is for old houses like mine (built in the 1930s) Newer houses have much better insulation by default so the marginal effect of bringing insuation up to modern building code will cost a lot but the marginal benefit won't be that great as it's not bad to start with.

For reference I pay around +/- 3000 bucks / year for electricity. This covers heating of the house, hot water, running all stuff obviously and also "fuel" for the electric car. So the budget to play around with for reducing the heating bill isn't that great. And almost half of my electricity use is non-heating anyway based on consumption during the months with no heating. Just the cost of buying new wooden panels + the paint job if outsourced would probably come to like a decade of money spent on electricity for heating with status quo. Even if I did all the work myself, which would be way beyond anything I would take on, the cost of materials alone would be years worth of heating costs. Heck, if I just invested the total cost of such a project the 4% rule would probably cover more than my full heating bill.

In other places with other building styles, cheaper contractors and higher electricity prices the math can obv work out otherwise.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2021, 02:54:13 PM by habanero »

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Re: Electric heating for 100 year old house
« Reply #28 on: January 06, 2021, 04:50:36 PM »
It's an old house which was never set up with ductwork, probably originally heated with radiant coal or a coal or oil boiler.   The cheap and easy way to upgrade the heating system was baseboard electric, as it's much easier to run wires than it is to run duct.   Unfortunately, electric heat can be pretty expensive and pretty inefficient as well.

If you are there for the long term, I'd start thinking about a total HVAC system replacement and figure out a way to get some conventional forced air gas heat / electric AC with ductwork installed.   Might get interesting figuring out where to put equipment, run ductwork, etc. but there is almost always a way it can be accomplished.   Even exposed ductwork doesn't look to bad if installed neatly and professionally.
This.  Go with what the pro says. 

Resistance electric heat is terribly expensive.   


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Ecky

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Re: Electric heating for 100 year old house
« Reply #29 on: January 06, 2021, 07:29:21 PM »
I’m a bit confused when you talk about your HOA and say “wouldn’t work below 40ºF”.
Are you really confined by those choices, and do they suck tha much?

FWIW, I own a 120 year old home, and we recently installed two Fujitsu mini-split heat pumps.  Both will work down o -17ºF, and work beautifully at temperatures at temperatures above 0. I live in northern New England (climate zone 6).

Given what you’ve described (old house, no ductwork), I’d revisit today’s mini-split heat pumps. Newer models have better SEER ratings and work down to sub-freezing temperatures quite well.

This is exactly what I did with my home. I have a Fujitsu mini split heating the front of the house. I live in northern Vermont, and it keeps the house warm on all but those nights where temperatures dip to -20F or below. On those nights I have a pellet stove I crank up. My heating costs per year are less than $1000, even with Vermont's somewhat expensive electricity, and my home is around 70 years old and not absurdly well insulated.

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Re: Electric heating for 100 year old house
« Reply #30 on: January 06, 2021, 08:49:15 PM »
Two words.

Mini. Split.

Installed an LGred myself total cost around 2k, electric bill is cut in HALF. House is warm and cozy. Had cold day down to -16 and it hasn’t skipped a beat yet.

50 y/o house all electric heat before.

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Re: Electric heating for 100 year old house
« Reply #31 on: January 07, 2021, 09:57:18 AM »
I would check into the mini split again.  The model you looked at 5 years ago has probably been updated to something more efficient.  I recently installed the Mr Cool DIY mini split.  Its not a hyper heat model for very low temps but still works fine in 20°C weather. 

Ecky

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Re: Electric heating for 100 year old house
« Reply #32 on: January 07, 2021, 03:04:23 PM »
I would check into the mini split again.  The model you looked at 5 years ago has probably been updated to something more efficient.  I recently installed the Mr Cool DIY mini split.  Its not a hyper heat model for very low temps but still works fine in 20°C weather.

I've looked at those but the efficiency difference compared with a Fujitsu unit was significant enough that, even paying for professional installation (I think it came out to around $2200 installed) the break-even point was less than a year.