Advice for moving to New England (Vermont) as someone unaccustomed to winter

[uniwelder]

@RumBurgundy your posting has come back to life and we’re all hoping you’re doing well in Vermont if you made the move up there yet. Let us know how you like the wood stove , cold weather, and what you’re up to.

[FLBiker]

Since this thread is back from the dead -- I've been thinking about purchasing both a trickle charger and a battery jump starter.  We just have one car, and it's a Subaru Outback which seems to have a decent amount of passive energy draw.  We've had to get it jumped twice in 18 months (in fairness, both times due to user error) and we have free roadside assistance from a credit card, but I'd like to be able to handle it ourselves, without relying on a tow truck.

I'm thinking about this for the trickle charger: https://www.amazon.ca/dp/B07W6B987F/

And this for the jump starter: https://www.amazon.ca/dp/B015TKUPIC/

Any experience / opinions on these?

[GreenSheep]

Just in case anyone else is still reading this for cold climate advice, I thought I'd add my two cents even though I'm late to the party.

For years I made the mistake of ignoring my legs when trying to dress warmly. I'd have a billion layers on my top half, a hat, gloves, and then just... jeans. It's true that it's the wind, not just the cold, that really makes you feel cold. I've never been skiing (saw too many injuries among friends when I was a teenager), but I have two pairs of ski pants that I wear when outside with the dog, etc. They're a bit... swishy... for everyday wear, but they're great for around the yard, hiking, etc. I wear long underwear or thicker tight-fitting pants underneath, both to add warmth and to decrease the need for frequent washing.

If you're not in a situation where you can wear ski pants, then at least wear a coat that covers your butt and upper thighs. I've found that helps a lot. I see all these trendy cropped down puffy coats lately, and I wonder where on earth they expect people to wear them!

Seems like everyone has their preferred boot. I love my Bogs. They're waterproof and temperature rated to -58F/-50C. Even the ones with laces are easy to slip on/off for quick trips to the yard. And they're actually comfortable -- not overly tight or stiff. Micro-spikes have saved me from ice more times than I care to remember, and they keep me from hibernating inside due to fear of slipping.

[FLBiker]

For years I made the mistake of ignoring my legs when trying to dress warmly. I'd have a billion layers on my top half, a hat, gloves, and then just... jeans. It's true that it's the wind, not just the cold, that really makes you feel cold. I've never been skiing (saw too many injuries among friends when I was a teenager), but I have two pairs of ski pants that I wear when outside with the dog, etc. They're a bit... swishy... for everyday wear, but they're great for around the yard, hiking, etc. I wear long underwear or thicker tight-fitting pants underneath, both to add warmth and to decrease the need for frequent washing.

I've got a couple pairs of fleece-lined Wrangler cargo pants that I really like for winter hiking.  Plus snow pants for playing in the snow. :)

[Dave1442397]

Since this thread is back from the dead -- I've been thinking about purchasing both a trickle charger and a battery jump starter.  We just have one car, and it's a Subaru Outback which seems to have a decent amount of passive energy draw.  We've had to get it jumped twice in 18 months (in fairness, both times due to user error) and we have free roadside assistance from a credit card, but I'd like to be able to handle it ourselves, without relying on a tow truck.

I'm thinking about this for the trickle charger: https://www.amazon.ca/dp/B07W6B987F/

And this for the jump starter: https://www.amazon.ca/dp/B015TKUPIC/

Any experience / opinions on these?

The Noco Genius models get good reviews. I bought the 5 back in September, and it's been taking care of my car since then. I've only put around 250 miles on the car in the past four months, and 125 of those was a single trip.

https://no.co/genius5

[FLBiker]

Since this thread is back from the dead -- I've been thinking about purchasing both a trickle charger and a battery jump starter.  We just have one car, and it's a Subaru Outback which seems to have a decent amount of passive energy draw.  We've had to get it jumped twice in 18 months (in fairness, both times due to user error) and we have free roadside assistance from a credit card, but I'd like to be able to handle it ourselves, without relying on a tow truck.

I'm thinking about this for the trickle charger: https://www.amazon.ca/dp/B07W6B987F/

And this for the jump starter: https://www.amazon.ca/dp/B015TKUPIC/

Any experience / opinions on these?

The Noco Genius models get good reviews. I bought the 5 back in September, and it's been taking care of my car since then. I've only put around 250 miles on the car in the past four months, and 125 of those was a single trip.

https://no.co/genius5

Excellent, thanks!

[Dr Kidstache]

Seems like everyone has their preferred boot. I love my Bogs. They're waterproof and temperature rated to -58F/-50C. Even the ones with laces are easy to slip on/off for quick trips to the yard. And they're actually comfortable -- not overly tight or stiff. Micro-spikes have saved me from ice more times than I care to remember, and they keep me from hibernating inside due to fear of slipping.

So true! I'm obsessed with Baffin boots. They're the only boots I wear in winter now. I basically pull out my Baffins at first snow and wear them everyday until mud season. Mine are all "tundra rated" which is rated to -40 degrees and is their mid-range warmth level. I find them very cozy in our winters here which are generally between 0 and 30 degrees. Their "polar rated" boots are rated to -140 degrees. I also have some insulated hikers from Baffin that are better for mud season temperatures like freezing to 50. Love Baffins!

[Turtle]

Another vote for wool &/or alpaca or cashmere.  All come from animals who are adapted to being outside in the cold, and the difference between those fibers and plant fibers during cold weather is not to be underestimated.

Sometimes these items can be found second hand.  Rustic / non-superwash wool requires more care when washing, and isn't necessarily next to skin soft - but if you are wearing a base layer under it there's not as frequent washing required anyway.

For buying new - I'd recommend getting on the mailing lists and stalking sales.  If you aren't picky about colors, you can reduce your overall expenses for kitting yourself out in wool. 

[GreenSheep]

Another vote for wool &/or alpaca or cashmere.  All come from animals who are adapted to being outside in the cold, and the difference between those fibers and plant fibers during cold weather is not to be underestimated.

I suspect that the amount of fur my dog produces is enough to sweep up and turn into clothing, and she's outside lolling around when it's 20 degrees F out there... seems like a very Mustachian endeavor that no one has taken up quite yet. :-) (Yes, by choice... she has a dog door and knows how to use it!)

Some of the more outdoorsy cities/towns have secondhand stores specifically for outdoor gear. When I was a poor, starving student, I bought a bunch of secondhand stuff at a shop in Denver, and I still wear some of it almost 2 decades later!

[RumBurgundy]

Hi all,
I got a PM asking for an update so here goes.

My partner and I quickly learned that certain things just tend to get done slowly right now in this area of VT. Case in point, we contacted Green Mountain Power about limb removal over power lines at the advice of the home inspector and we were told the waiting list was months long. There may be COVID related delays but others in the neighborhood suggested that this was pretty typical. In November we were told it would be February time line. My partner opted to call daily to check for cancellations and grease the wheel and they accelerated the job timeline a few months, thankfully.

Chimney inspector told us our wood stove is under sized; we went to order a new one from Vermont Castings and were told the wait time would be about 3 months. In the meantime we got Efficiency Vermont to do an energy audit, who suggested the following:

1. insulate the basement (walls and floor, but not between basement and first floor)
2. insulation checks in the attic
3. upgrade the wood stove (somewhat undersized, and older/less efficient)
4. consider a pellet stove instead of the wood stove for convenience (my partner and I are not enthused by this)
5. consider a hybrid heat pump water heater when current one dies
6. air sealing of the attic hatch and recessed lights

If the above doesn't work, then consider a heat pump (with the caveat that they don't work when you hit -20 deg F). Since we have some pretty big windows on the top floor in the living area he also recommended storm window glass or a thermal hex shade for those windows.

We lucked out to find renters who are savvy and pretty damn Mustachian and they have been super flexible with us as we navigate getting the house to more comfortable and efficient and while we had about a cord of wood at the house to begin with they have already ordered and stacked a significant amount of additional wood. Electric bill in November was for $400, and it was $500 this month and we're working to mitigate that for future wintry months. Those amounts seem *very* high to us for a household that is burning a lot of wood and not reportedly not using the basement heat much. But our sticker shock is in part due to the declared energy usage the previous owners gave us on their seller disclosure.   

Going forward our plan is to move to VT in June when the school semester ends down south, and to stay through either November or December, before returning south for the colder months and then hopefully live there at least 6 months each year. This is a bit of a trial situation as child custody is worked out which is the biggest reason we won't move there full time yet.

I've started looking at vehicles so that I can leave one at the house in case I need to fly in for something during the seasons I don't live there and so that my partner and I won't have to drive two cars up there each time we migrate. It's also so I can keep a spare car in the South so I can fly in quickly and have transport if there's a child situation I am needed for during the summer/fall when I'm in VT. I know that becoming a 3 car household might be a sticking point for the MMM purists but I'll likely be going back and forth from Maine and VT a fair amount during the summers and my partner needs her own transport for her work and social life. Not sure about the feasibility of winterizing a vehicle and leaving it in that climate for the coldest months unless a future renter wants to rent a car along with the house. My hesitancy with pulling the trigger on keeping a spare vehicle there is compounded by the fact there is no garage and I don't think I can stomach paying to store a car for 6 months annually. At least I can cross off AWD and even 4WD as a requirement due to our neighborhood's ample plowing situation.

Can't think of anything else at the moment. I'll try to chime in with some responses to some of the other posts. I'm blown away at the quantity and quality of the tips you folks provided. Love this community!

[RumBurgundy]

On electric heat.  Anyone in New England will laugh their ass off at the notion that anyone would use electricity.  Our rates are at the top, matched only by California and I think Hawaii.  I lived in Virginia during grad school.  Mass rates are double Virginia.  Why?  We're all powered by natural gas and the pipelines (we have a transfer station in my town) are woefully inadequate and any submission for new or upgraded lines are shot down by powerful residents.
.......

Wood burning.  Sigh.  So I forest manage my property for tax savings and for firewood.  I've got both a Stihl pro and Husqvarna little (440) chainsaws, a log splitter and that 4x4 diesel tractor with a bucket to move it (and a cart).  My property tax savings make it worth it, I love working in the woods and I love saving the money for heating oil, which 90% of homes in New England are heated by.  But if I could not get the wood for free, I would never go through the expense and work of heating with wood.  ....

I missed this on my previous reads of the thread. How much of Vermont electricity is from natural gas plants? I would have assumed the state would have massive investments in solar energy by now. Is that not the case, and if so, why not? (if that isn't too demanding/presumptive a question)

But even more importantly, I have to ask, if wood wasn't free what would you invest in for heating your home? Feels like a cliffhanger!

[RumBurgundy]

A little late to the party, but I'm in Rutland and thought I would say hello!

I would not worry about buying a new car, just getting good winter tires is sufficient.  Unless your driveway is particularly gnarly, and unplowed, you won't need studs.  Just get some winter tires from one of the local shops and you will be fine.  If you are a first-responder or otherwise have to go on back roads that are not plowed, than you might need more -- but your coworkers will be your best resource then.  I wouldn't bother with dedicated rims for the winter tires either.

I also echo the sentiment that you need to own the winter, and make sure you make the most of the light and the outdoor options.  There is great XC and downhill skiing here, or ice fishing, or sledding, or snow biking, or snowshoeing.  More so if you have a relationship with drinking or drugs.  Winters are long, days are short, and it's funny all the little things that can't happen, or that become difficult when you throw in ice and snow and cold.  Keep chill, which is not hard in VT, and enjoy the scenery.

Some good duck boots (LL Bean?), or muck boots are important too -- lots of snow and slush mixed with salt.

Good gloves and a hat will become prized possessions, as will good socks.  Darn Tough, is assumed.  Good house slippers will be treasured.  WRT long underwear, while wool is the best, you may find it irritating after days and days on your skin.  I have a mix of wool, synthetic and blends, and in varying weights.

If you need social interaction, check out the Rutland Rocks curling club -- they do "learn to curl" sessions frequently (pre covid at least).

Since I moved here, about 8 years ago, I have enjoyed my motorcycle riding, trail running, and skiing (any mode you can think of), foraging -- all of which get me into the woods.  Moving thru the woods all year round, thru all the seasons (except mud season, heh) gives me great joy.

Yah, Mud Season is a thing, when the spring rains come and melt the snow and ice..  Along with Stick Season, after the leaves go, but before the snow, it's what gives VT 6 seasons.

Wow, how cool. Hello neighbor!

So are you saying drinking/drugs makes the winter hobbies better or makes the winter hobbies more necessary? 2021 (a full six years post corporate) was the year I finally gave in, relaxed, and started smoking herb daily. It was very exciting that not so long ago I googled to see how Vermont's legalization efforts were going to find how much further along they were than just 6 or 7 years ago when I'd last specifically looked.

I'll be especially looking for summer hobbies as I'm transitioning away from "FI" to "RE" and it will be interesting to see what grabs my attention. I've even checked to see if Rutland had the closest bowling alley and if maybe I should embrace the full Lebowski and try some league play.

[RumBurgundy]

Vermont rocks. We're residents in the Northeast Kingdom, right on the NH/Canadian borders. Have yet to spend a winter there but it's on the list (after we spend a lot of winters in the Caribbean and other warm sailing places!)

You've got this seasonal living thing figured out to the max!

Yeah, both my partner and I are looking forward to truly acclimating at some point to the full swing of seasons up there, but for right now we still have a familial connection that will keep us based in the South for about half the year. In the meantime, I'm living somewhat vicariously through this really sweet couple who are renting the house and sending amazing photos and occasional weather reports that seem relatively harrowing to these southern Mississippi temperatures I'm currently enjoying. One day when kiddo is in college or beyond maybe I'll pick up the sailing. Maybe. I've heard it gets "expensive" quick considering repeated equipment replacement and maintenance.

[RumBurgundy]

I would break winter tires (NOT snow tires, as @RetiredAt63 correctly pointed out) into 4 categories.  All-weather tires (not to be confused with all-season tires), performance winter tires, winter tires, and studded winter tires. 
All-weather tires are essentially a new category of winter tires, and as of a few years ago the brand Nokian had the first and only in this category.  They are real winter tires with the snowflake emblem on the tire, but can be used year round.  While they're vastly better than all-season tires (which do not have the snowflake on the sidewall) I would only recommend them for someone who simply cannot store and change an extra set of tires.  If you live in an apartment or a 500 sq. ft. house with no storage, then they're an acceptable option.
Performance winter tires, as Car Jack correctly pointed out, handle almost like all-season tires in the dry but do much better than all-season tires in cold, slush, snow, and on ice.  If you are picky about how your car handles in the dry and can minimize time on snowy/icy roads, then they're a great option.  They probably get you to 90% of the capability of the next category of tires in winter conditions, but without the slushy handling of the next category.
Winter tires are the most common category, and are what people mean when they talk about Blizzak-style tires.  Blizzaks are just a brand name, like Kleenex, that is often used for a category even though Bridgestone has long had a Performance version (Blizzak LM....) of the Blizzaks just to capitalize on the brand name.  This category of tires will generally give you the best performance in cold, slush, packed snow, and deep snow.  The drawbacks are that they feel sloppy to drive on - every input is delayed a bit.  People describe this as feeling like they're driving on mud or like the tires are underinflated.  This feeling is something you can get used to pretty quickly.  For people who live where there is a real winter and they need to drive in all conditions, I think these are the best option.  As long as you expect slightly worse handling and stopping than you're used to with all-season tires in the dry, you'll be fine.  And the upside is that when the conditions are less than ideal you'll have the best possible control of your vehicle. 
The final category is studded tires.  Again, Car Jack was correct.  Studded tires do help on ice, but they hurt pretty much everywhere else.  They're also loud, contribute to air pollution, tear up the roads, and can slide on roads that aren't covered in ice.  I wouldn't recommend them unless the conditions in your area mean you'll be driving on bare ice very often. 

I am bookmarking this for certain need of future reference, thanks!
We actually have some close friends that live near a Nokian factory in Tennessee who have joked that maybe they can source a private connection.

[RumBurgundy]

The kids were super excited for ice skating this weekend. We convinced them -1 F on Saturday wasn't going to be a good time. So we went out yesterday in the 20 degree rain that turned to ice as soon as it touched anything.

They had a great time and fell asleep in the trailer on the way home.

I probably missed it in a previous post, but where are you based?

Is the weather you're experiencing somewhat warmer than it used to be even 5-10 years ago?

[RumBurgundy]

Since this thread is back from the dead -- I've been thinking about purchasing both a trickle charger and a battery jump starter.  We just have one car, and it's a Subaru Outback which seems to have a decent amount of passive energy draw.  We've had to get it jumped twice in 18 months (in fairness, both times due to user error) and we have free roadside assistance from a credit card, but I'd like to be able to handle it ourselves, without relying on a tow truck.

Dumb question here and maybe it's already been covered, but do I need to get a different battery for a car that lives in VT/NE than I would for a car in the southeast?

[RumBurgundy]

For years I made the mistake of ignoring my legs when trying to dress warmly. I'd have a billion layers on my top half, a hat, gloves, and then just... jeans. It's true that it's the wind, not just the cold, that really makes you feel cold. I've never been skiing (saw too many injuries among friends when I was a teenager), but I have two pairs of ski pants that I wear when outside with the dog, etc. They're a bit... swishy... for everyday wear, but they're great for around the yard, hiking, etc. I wear long underwear or thicker tight-fitting pants underneath, both to add warmth and to decrease the need for frequent washing.

If you're not in a situation where you can wear ski pants, then at least wear a coat that covers your butt and upper thighs. I've found that helps a lot. I see all these trendy cropped down puffy coats lately, and I wonder where on earth they expect people to wear them!

Fortunately for me, I neither have a fashion sense nor want one, so I'll dress however I need to survive. No joke, sometimes I even need long underwear on the Gulf Coast because the wetness in our cold here makes it hurt, even if it's only for a few weeks each year.

[Sanitary Stache]

On electric heat.  Anyone in New England will laugh their ass off at the notion that anyone would use electricity.  Our rates are at the top, matched only by California and I think Hawaii.  I lived in Virginia during grad school.  Mass rates are double Virginia.  Why?  We're all powered by natural gas and the pipelines (we have a transfer station in my town) are woefully inadequate and any submission for new or upgraded lines are shot down by powerful residents.
.......

Wood burning.  Sigh.  So I forest manage my property for tax savings and for firewood.  I've got both a Stihl pro and Husqvarna little (440) chainsaws, a log splitter and that 4x4 diesel tractor with a bucket to move it (and a cart).  My property tax savings make it worth it, I love working in the woods and I love saving the money for heating oil, which 90% of homes in New England are heated by.  But if I could not get the wood for free, I would never go through the expense and work of heating with wood.  ....

I missed this on my previous reads of the thread. How much of Vermont electricity is from natural gas plants? I would have assumed the state would have massive investments in solar energy by now. Is that not the case, and if so, why not? (if that isn't too demanding/presumptive a question)

But even more importantly, I have to ask, if wood wasn't free what would you invest in for heating your home? Feels like a cliffhanger!

Vermont claims to have 100% renewable electricty.  With close to half coming from Hydro-Quebec.  I don't totally believe it.

Pellets are more convenient than split wood and you can pay a premium for locally sourced pellets.  Air-to-air heat pump with back up oil is what your energy inspector should have recommended.  I like heat pump for a furnace replacement and wood stove for comfort heat (comfort in one room). 

I keep laughing at Vermont's Congressman Peter Welch, defending a doubling of the home heating assistance funding in VT by saying, "There are some homes in Vermont where folks can see their breath inside."  hahahaha.  I wonder which homes in VT are so wasteful that they can't see their breath, at least upstairs.

[Sanitary Stache]

The kids were super excited for ice skating this weekend. We convinced them -1 F on Saturday wasn't going to be a good time. So we went out yesterday in the 20 degree rain that turned to ice as soon as it touched anything.

They had a great time and fell asleep in the trailer on the way home.

I probably missed it in a previous post, but where are you based?

Is the weather you're experiencing somewhat warmer than it used to be even 5-10 years ago?

I wouldn't trust my memory on this.  But I am sure there is data.  I am in the NEK.  This winter is colder than last winter which was warmer than the winter before.  -20 F is about the coldest I know and we generally reach it at least once.  30 degree temperature changes in a day are normal. Single digits are the most comfortable for me to recreate in.  Anything over 32 degrees is a beach day and shorts are not strange to see.

[SunnyDays]

Since this thread is back from the dead -- I've been thinking about purchasing both a trickle charger and a battery jump starter.  We just have one car, and it's a Subaru Outback which seems to have a decent amount of passive energy draw.  We've had to get it jumped twice in 18 months (in fairness, both times due to user error) and we have free roadside assistance from a credit card, but I'd like to be able to handle it ourselves, without relying on a tow truck.

Dumb question here and maybe it's already been covered, but do I need to get a different battery for a car that lives in VT/NE than I would for a car in the southeast?

Yes, you may well need a different battery, depending on what you have now.  The most important thing is called Cold Cranking Power, which needs to be a higher rating for batteries in cold weather areas.  Otherwise, it won't start or won't keep running if it does.

I live further north than you where we have "cheap" electricity and it's still way more expensive to use that than natural gas, which most people have.  So I would first use whatever other heat sources you have and leave electric as a last resort.  You can also put your bills on a budget plan after the first year so that you pay the same amount year round with a one month adjustment bill.  That way, no nasty surprises.

[RumBurgundy]

Yes, you may well need a different battery, depending on what you have now.  The most important thing is called Cold Cranking Power, which needs to be a higher rating for batteries in cold weather areas.  Otherwise, it won't start or won't keep running if it does.

I live further north than you where we have "cheap" electricity and it's still way more expensive to use that than natural gas, which most people have.  So I would first use whatever other heat sources you have and leave electric as a last resort.  You can also put your bills on a budget plan after the first year so that you pay the same amount year round with a one month adjustment bill.  That way, no nasty surprises.

Thanks.
I'd consider natural gas but as I understand it I'd have to bury a tank and I am 90% sure I can't do that on the rocky hillside my house is on.

[RumBurgundy]

Pellets are more convenient than split wood and you can pay a premium for locally sourced pellets.  Air-to-air heat pump with back up oil is what your energy inspector should have recommended.  I like heat pump for a furnace replacement and wood stove for comfort heat (comfort in one room). 

Definitely looking into a heat pump. Should I be concerned about what the inspector said about heat pumps not working at low temperatures?

[SailingOnASmallSailboat]

You might want to look into heat pumps in general, to understand what you're looking for and how you want to use it. They move heat from outside to in, or inside to out. The challenge in its heating mode is that the outdoor unit is a heat exchanger; when the temp difference narrows and the delta between the refrigerant temp and the air temp becomes smaller and smaller, the efficiency declines. Hence the recommendation for a backup heat source in areas where it's freaking freezing for chunks of time - a heat pump can quite literally stop working at super low temperatures.

A suggestion is to research by talking to a number of heating specialists. I'm not sure where in Vermont exactly you are (I have suspicions given that you're talking about Rutland being close enough to try bowling on the regular there) but local suppliers will be important. Brattleboro and Burlington have pretty different climate, weirdly enough.

[Sanitary Stache]

Pellets are more convenient than split wood and you can pay a premium for locally sourced pellets.  Air-to-air heat pump with back up oil is what your energy inspector should have recommended.  I like heat pump for a furnace replacement and wood stove for comfort heat (comfort in one room). 

Definitely looking into a heat pump. Should I be concerned about what the inspector said about heat pumps not working at low temperatures?

The danger is freezing pipes. If you can size the heat pump to prevent freezing the pipes for the coldest period. There are calculations for this. I think MMM recently went through how to adjust them for less wasteful parameters.  You might not be exactly comfortable 100% of the time, but you won’t destroy your house.

I bought a heat pump that works for most of its design down-to -20 F and then works less well.

Did you read the latest MMM article? Your furnace was likely sized 2-3x too big to keep a very drafty house hot during the coldest days.

Seeing sailing on a boats post. We used the HEAT Squad out of Rutland. They are reliable and a good place to start.

[RainyDay]

I'm very curious about the heat pump in cold weather as well.  We live in Virginia and the heat pump does NOT work well when it gets below 20 degrees F.  The system literally cannot keep the house warm.  We had the heat set at 62 degrees and it ran all day and didn't come up to temperature until about 3pm.  The auxiliary heat kicks on (electric, so expensive) but it still didn't keep up.  Granted, it's possible something is wrong with the system.  I don't know enough about this stuff to know.  For reference, our house is about 1900 sq ft and on a concrete slab, and my guess is the furnace is 20+ years old.

I'm astonished at the price of electricity in VT!  The highest our bill has ever been is $220/month.  $400-500/month blows my mind! 

[uniwelder]

I'm very curious about the heat pump in cold weather as well.  We live in Virginia and the heat pump does NOT work well when it gets below 20 degrees F.  The system literally cannot keep the house warm.  We had the heat set at 62 degrees and it ran all day and didn't come up to temperature until about 3pm.  The auxiliary heat kicks on (electric, so expensive) but it still didn't keep up.  Granted, it's possible something is wrong with the system.  I don't know enough about this stuff to know.  For reference, our house is about 1900 sq ft and on a concrete slab, and my guess is the furnace is 20+ years old.

I'm astonished at the price of electricity in VT!  The highest our bill has ever been is $220/month.  $400-500/month blows my mind!

Its the technology that makes difference in new heat pumps.  I live in Virginia also, and my mini-split (heat pump without ductwork) works just fine.  Its rated to -5 F, though the coldest we've seen was +5 F a few nights, and it has no backup resistance heat strips.  LG and Mitsubishi (maybe others too) makes units that will operate down to -20 F without backup resistance heat.

[SailingOnASmallSailboat]

So good to know the technology has advanced that much. We moved from central Virginia where our experience was much like @RainyDay - a heat pump (which we installed in 2003 or thereabouts) that kicked over to (super expensive) resistance electric heat when it went below 20. Happily that wasn't often, but it was a shock to the wallet when it did.

With Vermont the way it is, those units that'll go to -20 will be important. And I'd still throw in a backup source of heat!

[Sanitary Stache]

There is no one in Vermont that will acknowledge installing a heat pump without a backup source. I am 100% sure this is because most people can't comprehend allowing oneself to be uncomfortably cold in their houses.  But there is also a very real risk of freezing pipes - the thing is that this is going to happen regardless of your heat source if your pipes are vulnerable in an uninsulated exterior wall or in a cold basement or if you run out of fuel (it has happened to EVERYONE at least once).  My house had pipes freeze in basement when it was vacant and for sale. This was the result of a missed fuel delivery, a heat pump likely would not have had this problem because power outages are so short at my location. 

We have the Mitsubishi and sought out the contractor that could provide it.  The Fujitsu is very common also and I haven't heard any complaints on it yet.  I haven't seen an LG that is described as a cold weather heat pump yet.  The rebates in VT on these units is excellent and can be combined with other great funding options for more weatherization work (Heat Squad is going to give you a summary for free or maybe for $50).  I have seen an excellent video about how there is still heat to be harvested even in very cold air.  It compares the amount of heat in the air to 0 Kelvin and shows how far away -20 F is from 0 Kelvin in comparison to any temperature humans can endure.

$400-$500 per month is too much and something is going on that is wasting electricity.  I don't know if OP said there was electric heat at this building, but those are the kinds of bills that result from electric heat.  Maybe an older or multiple electric hot water heaters.  We also have a "hybrid hot water heater" that uses a heat pump, but takes air from our otherwise conditioned space.  We have ours in the basement which gets down to 50 and that slows the heat production down significantly (so much that we have it in hybrid mode now rather than full heat pump).  Sometimes people put these in their garage, but mostly they are taking heat from your other heat source (furnace), still more efficient than using just electric heat if you can keep it in a place that can handle losing a few degrees.

@SailingOnASmallSailboat I can't imagine you would stay on the water in the winter!  There are some pretty sweet ski rentals available in the area though. We had one once that we could take excellent ski tours from along the Long Trail and the area snow mobile trails.

[uniwelder]

$400-$500 per month is too much and something is going on that is wasting electricity.  I don't know if OP said there was electric heat at this building, but those are the kinds of bills that result from electric heat. 

Yes, OP has electric resistance baseboard heat along with the wood stove.

[FLBiker]

We have the Mitsubishi and sought out the contractor that could provide it.  The Fujitsu is very common also and I haven't heard any complaints on it yet.  I haven't seen an LG that is described as a cold weather heat pump yet.

We have a Fujitsu (in Nova Scotia) and have been very happy with it.  We've had a lot of cold weather in the past few weeks (down to -20C) and it has continued to perform well.  I just make sure to clear the outside unit after a heavy snow.  We basically use the heat pump upstairs and a pellet stove downstairs.  We also have resistance heat, but never use it.

The question we've been debating is what to do when the time comes to replace the pellet stove.  Heat pumps are very efficient, and ours has been totally trouble free, but there's just something very cozy about the pellet stove.  We'll see when the time comes!

[JustK]

I just wanted to weigh in on one aspect of "culture" as someone who grew up a Yankee (born & raised in Connecticut, attended college & grad school in New Hampshire) but ended up living in the South as an adult.  It's just... very different.

I'm super introverted, and was painfully shy as a kid/young adult, so I grew up feeling like I didn't fit in, couldn't make friends, wasn't "popular" enough.  I always had a small tribe of close friends, but overall, I just felt like something was wrong with me. I could never put my finger on it.  And then I moved to Florida after grad school (a purple part of the state) and suddenly everybody was so NICE to me.  I actually cried the first time a waitress called me "hon" and seemed to mean it.  I realized that it wasn't me, it was just that the people "up North" were less open and welcoming, and my own shyness made it difficult for me to overcome that. I sure wish I'd figured that out sooner.   

[RumBurgundy]

Wow, I didn't realize how long it'd been since I checked this thread, life really got away from me. Hopefully it's ok with the mods that I'm posting to such an old thread.

  The rebates in VT on these units is excellent and can be combined with other great funding options for more weatherization work (Heat Squad is going to give you a summary for free or maybe for $50).

Coincidentally, Heat Squad is exactly who we went with. And yes, the rebates were stunning, coming from someone who is used to Red State distrust of subsidizing energy efficiency. We ended up getting the basement walls' insulation redone, had a vapor barrier put in, had the attic on the top story sprayed with closed cell foam and topped with cellulose AND put in the heat pumps. There have been significant reductions in power bills so far this winter, just not as drastic as I'd hoped (I'll post actual numbers if there's interest).

I just wanted to weigh in on one aspect of "culture" as someone who grew up a Yankee (born & raised in Connecticut, attended college & grad school in New Hampshire) but ended up living in the South as an adult.  It's just... very different.

I'm super introverted, and was painfully shy as a kid/young adult, so I grew up feeling like I didn't fit in, couldn't make friends, wasn't "popular" enough.  I always had a small tribe of close friends, but overall, I just felt like something was wrong with me. I could never put my finger on it.  And then I moved to Florida after grad school (a purple part of the state) and suddenly everybody was so NICE to me.  I actually cried the first time a waitress called me "hon" and seemed to mean it.  I realized that it wasn't me, it was just that the people "up North" were less open and welcoming, and my own shyness made it difficult for me to overcome that. I sure wish I'd figured that out sooner.   

This was a really thoughtful contribution, thank you! Approx where in the South did you end up?

[JupiterGreen]

Wow, I didn't realize how long it'd been since I checked this thread, life really got away from me. Hopefully it's ok with the mods that I'm posting to such an old thread.

  The rebates in VT on these units is excellent and can be combined with other great funding options for more weatherization work (Heat Squad is going to give you a summary for free or maybe for $50).

Coincidentally, Heat Squad is exactly who we went with. And yes, the rebates were stunning, coming from someone who is used to Red State distrust of subsidizing energy efficiency. We ended up getting the basement walls' insulation redone, had a vapor barrier put in, had the attic on the top story sprayed with closed cell foam and topped with cellulose AND put in the heat pumps. There have been significant reductions in power bills so far this winter, just not as drastic as I'd hoped (I'll post actual numbers if there's interest).

I just wanted to weigh in on one aspect of "culture" as someone who grew up a Yankee (born & raised in Connecticut, attended college & grad school in New Hampshire) but ended up living in the South as an adult.  It's just... very different.

I'm super introverted, and was painfully shy as a kid/young adult, so I grew up feeling like I didn't fit in, couldn't make friends, wasn't "popular" enough.  I always had a small tribe of close friends, but overall, I just felt like something was wrong with me. I could never put my finger on it.  And then I moved to Florida after grad school (a purple part of the state) and suddenly everybody was so NICE to me.  I actually cried the first time a waitress called me "hon" and seemed to mean it.  I realized that it wasn't me, it was just that the people "up North" were less open and welcoming, and my own shyness made it difficult for me to overcome that. I sure wish I'd figured that out sooner.   

This was a really thoughtful contribution, thank you! Approx where in the South did you end up?

I'd be interested to know what your heating bill in VT is. We are planning to move to a colder climate than we are at present.

[RumBurgundy]

]

I'd be interested to know what your heating bill in VT is. We are planning to move to a colder climate than we are at present.

Sure! It's a small data set but enough to see what the improvements are (and aren't) saving me.

Nov 2021 — $177
Nov 2022 — $205
Dec 2021 — $409
Dec 2022 — $265
Jan 2022 —$501
Jan 2023 — $329
Feb 2022 — $777
Feb 2023 — $287
Mar 2022 —$514
Mar 2023 — (will edit to add)
Apr 2022 — $357
Apr 2023 —(will edit to add)

I installed an energy monitor on the breaker box in September so I need to go in and see if there's an obvious offender other than the electric baseboard heat still needing to be used as a backup during some of the doozy winter storm(s) the last few months brought.

I guess the next thing for me to target would be inner wall insulation. However the energy audit guys (Heat Squad) seemed to think it would be cost prohibitive as they advised against simply drilling holes and blowing insulation into the wall.

[Sanitary Stache]

We qualified for another weatherizarion program through NETO. They are going to do all the things that weren’t quite cost effective for Heat Squad to recommend.

Additional insulation dams around the soffits and chimney in the attic, a new attic access hatch, miscellaneous air sealing the doors, redoing and insulating my bathroom vents, and blowing dense pack cellulose in the walls and spaces between the floors.

It’s all free to me and they have an excellent reputation. We qualified because our income was low this past year since I went part time for a few months.

[JupiterGreen]

]

I'd be interested to know what your heating bill in VT is. We are planning to move to a colder climate than we are at present.

Sure! It's a small data set but enough to see what the improvements are (and aren't) saving me.

Nov 2021 — $177
Nov 2022 — $205
Dec 2021 — $409
Dec 2022 — $265
Jan 2022 —$501
Jan 2023 — $329
Feb 2022 — $777
Feb 2023 — $287
Mar 2022 —$514
Mar 2023 — (will edit to add)
Apr 2022 — $357
Apr 2023 —(will edit to add)

I installed an energy monitor on the breaker box in September so I need to go in and see if there's an obvious offender other than the electric baseboard heat still needing to be used as a backup during some of the doozy winter storm(s) the last few months brought.

I guess the next thing for me to target would be inner wall insulation. However the energy audit guys (Heat Squad) seemed to think it would be cost prohibitive as they advised against simply drilling holes and blowing insulation into the wall.

I don't know anything about the insulation idea, but wow that is a huge savings from 2022 to 2023, way to go! I'm in a mild climate and my energy bill was almost $400 last month with my thermostat down to 65-66 (2000 sq ft house though). The temperature average here was between 51-67F in February with only one or two days that dipped below freezing. I'm really trying to figure out my energy costs for an eventual move to the north (probably northeast). Here we have one energy company. That company came in to take over the last company and they are major evil, our bills have doubled (even though we are using less energy this year). Sure we have the money, but I hate paying this particular bill. The injustice of this energy company having a monopoly (and the politics around here that allow it) is a big reasons we may leave here sooner. But it doesn't help struggling families who can't relocate.

Thank you very much for this info.

[RumBurgundy]

We qualified for another weatherizarion program through NETO. They are going to do all the things that weren’t quite cost effective for Heat Squad to recommend.

Additional insulation dams around the soffits and chimney in the attic, a new attic access hatch, miscellaneous air sealing the doors, redoing and insulating my bathroom vents, and blowing dense pack cellulose in the walls and spaces between the floors.

We actually had most of those things done, just not the walls. If I recall correctly the insulation contractor said the potential for voids especially around switches, outlets, wires and pre existing insulation was so high that we'd be better off cost/efficiency-wise  taking down the walls and spraying closed cell foam. We weren't quite ready for that undertaking yet.

[GilesMM]

How is the rental working out? Are you making good cash flow? Can you visit or only between renters?

[ChpBstrd]

We qualified for another weatherizarion program through NETO. They are going to do all the things that weren’t quite cost effective for Heat Squad to recommend.

Additional insulation dams around the soffits and chimney in the attic, a new attic access hatch, miscellaneous air sealing the doors, redoing and insulating my bathroom vents, and blowing dense pack cellulose in the walls and spaces between the floors.

We actually had most of those things done, just not the walls. If I recall correctly the insulation contractor said the potential for voids especially around switches, outlets, wires and pre existing insulation was so high that we'd be better off cost/efficiency-wise  taking down the walls and spraying closed cell foam. We weren't quite ready for that undertaking yet.

In my (warm) area people are advertising a foam that is sprayed into small holes in the drywall that can be easily patched. I think it was $7 / sf of wall last time I checked. I was tempted.

[trc4897]

We qualified for another weatherizarion program through NETO. They are going to do all the things that weren’t quite cost effective for Heat Squad to recommend.

Additional insulation dams around the soffits and chimney in the attic, a new attic access hatch, miscellaneous air sealing the doors, redoing and insulating my bathroom vents, and blowing dense pack cellulose in the walls and spaces between the floors.

We actually had most of those things done, just not the walls. If I recall correctly the insulation contractor said the potential for voids especially around switches, outlets, wires and pre existing insulation was so high that we'd be better off cost/efficiency-wise  taking down the walls and spraying closed cell foam. We weren't quite ready for that undertaking yet.

In my (warm) area people are advertising a foam that is sprayed into small holes in the drywall that can be easily patched. I think it was $7 / sf of wall last time I checked. I was tempted.

I think this only works well if you have no insulation in your walls. But someone correct me if I'm wrong!

[Sanitary Stache]

We qualified for another weatherization program through NETO. They are going to do all the things that weren’t quite cost effective for Heat Squad to recommend.

Additional insulation dams around the soffits and chimney in the attic, a new attic access hatch, miscellaneous air sealing the doors, redoing and insulating my bathroom vents, and blowing dense pack cellulose in the walls and spaces between the floors.

We actually had most of those things done, just not the walls. If I recall correctly the insulation contractor said the potential for voids especially around switches, outlets, wires and pre existing insulation was so high that we'd be better off cost/efficiency-wise  taking down the walls and spraying closed cell foam. We weren't quite ready for that undertaking yet.

Everything I have heard is that this contractor is so experienced with homes in this area that there isn't going to be a problem with the existing insulation that I put in or with the electrical wires (I don't have any knob and tube).  My brother bought a house, similar in vintage to mine, that this group blew dense pack cellulose into 20 years ago and everything we have opened up so far (for electrical replacement and a new bathroom addition) all looks really good.

Now that I am living with the spray foam in the basement, I am motivated to not add any more foam into my living environment. I'll take my chances with the borax in the dese pack cellulose over the unknown in the foam.  I have seen a few homes with their siding and sheathing off and foam sprayed into the stud bays (more often I see this in older timber frame homes where there aren't stick built stud bays).  It is intense and looks a lot like rebuilding the house, but I think is a more feasible option for timber frame structures. My balloon frame stick built house can handle the dense pack cellulose just fine. 

I am pretty excited.  This will bring us almost all the way through the ABCs of weatherization.  Attic, Basement, Conditioned space.

[RumBurgundy]

How is the rental working out? Are you making good cash flow? Can you visit or only between renters?

The renters who stayed over last fall/winter/spring became good friends and decided to stay again this winter. We're renting under-market because they have handled a lot in our absence and have been patient with us as we get the upgrades done. Technically it's cash-flowing but we have also spent 5 figures between weatherization and insulation, new chimney liner, and a new wood stove. BUT the cash flow potential is there if our current renters decide not to come back next winter. Houses nearby have been selling for more than double what we got ours for so it seems by dumb-luck we got our foot in the door before the area priced us out.

We got to stay for the summer last year and will this year as well. A family obligation has somewhat unexpectedly required us to spend the rest of the year back in Louisiana, but at least we get to escape the hottest months with our current arrangement. Hoping we eventually split our time 50/50 between Vermont and the South but that's a little out of our hands right now.

Last summer was like a dream, and that was still with me covered in sheet rock dust or fiberglass most of that time getting 70s Era wall texture removed and working on wiring and pulling out can lights in the attic prior to insulation upgrades. The dog was happier, DW was happier (started a new online business herself), and I was pretty blissed out. Really looking forward to seeing what this summer holds for us.