Author Topic: 401k without guaranteed company match worth it?  (Read 5604 times)

wtjbatman

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401k without guaranteed company match worth it?
« on: November 15, 2013, 09:06:51 PM »
My company did not provide a lot of information about its 401k when I was hired, but when I became eligible recently I enrolled. I have been able to learn a few things about it that I didn't know before. FYI I'm paid hourly, and my pay averages out to right around $35,000 a year. I currently contribute 10% every week.

First off, there is no guaranteed company match. Whatever percentage of my pay that I put in, that's all that is guaranteed to go in. However what my company does is, at two points during the year, offer one time lump sums. They are a profit sharing lump sum, and a "scrap bonus" lump sum. The profit sharing is ONLY given out to employees with a 401k, and it is automatically deposited. The scrap bonus can either be paid out as a regular bonus (with the accompanying tax), or deposited into the 401k. The scrap bonus is paid out in December. I already signed off on having the scrap bonus deposited. Now I am waiting for the profit sharing at the beginning of next year (I believe March). These bonuses are not a lot of money. The scrap bonus this year is around $750, the profit sharing is generally around $2000. And, as is the nature of the beast, the profit sharing is not guaranteed. If the company doesn't do well, we obviously don't get a profit sharing bonuses. However I am not too worried as employees who I have talked to say the company has basically never failed to pay out a profit sharing bonus. The company is doing very well right now, and is an industry leader in sales and is still expanding.

So, I guess the question is, is this 401k actually worth investing a significant amount of my pay into? Obviously, at this point I will keep the account open no matter what, as just having the 401k entitles me to my cut of the profit sharing. But since there is no employee match on my weekly contribution, does it make more sense to cut back on 401k contributions and get my new Roth IRA maxed out first, or even look at putting more post-tax money into a taxable investment account? In addition, this job is not my career. It's an entry level position that I am working at as I finish my last semester of college. I will be applying elsewhere and moving on (most likely within 6-12 months), at which point I will rollover this account into an IRA or leave as-is for a while, or whatever makes the most sense at the time.

My initial thought was, yes, it's worth it. It's a tax advantaged account, I have the option of (and put all my contribution into) investing in the Vanguard Institutional Index Fund with its .04% expense ratio, and Personal Capital/BrightScope says the 401k fees are reasonable (less than the industry average apparently). But I just can't shake the feeling that without that company match, I might as well be putting the money towards maxing out my Roth IRA first, and then just collect the two upcoming "bonuses". And then take the rest of my money and put it into my taxable account and savings for eventual move/future house/etc, and worry about a fully funded 401k when I get into my career. If it matters, my grown up career will involve working in law enforcement and eventually collecting a pension.

Hopefully I've done a good job of explaining. Ultimately, I guess what I'm looking for is someone to either point out reasons why it's *obviously* worth it to contribute to that 401k while I'm still employed here, or reasons why I *obviously* shouldn't worry about putting extra money into that 401k right now, as the other options make more sense for me. Or maybe I'm just venting because this is the first job I've had that doesn't offer a true 401k match, and it frustrates me, hah.

the fixer

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Re: 401k without guaranteed company match worth it?
« Reply #1 on: November 15, 2013, 09:23:01 PM »
In your position I would contribute as much to the 401(k) as you can, setting aside $5500 for a Roth contribution which will benefit you more tax-wise. Your 401(k) sounds like it has pretty good investment options, even if there isn't a match.

ch12

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Re: 401k without guaranteed company match worth it?
« Reply #2 on: November 15, 2013, 09:28:54 PM »
You need to run the numbers. This question is not a silly, soft question with a vague answer. This is a math question with a definite answer.

Quote
FYI I'm paid hourly, and my pay averages out to right around $35,000 a year. I currently contribute 10% every week.

Is that gross or post-tax? There's a huge difference between my gross and net income, since I am taxed more than a Canadian.

Quote
But since there is no employee match on my weekly contribution, does it make more sense to cut back on 401k contributions and get my new Roth IRA maxed out first, or even look at putting more post-tax money into a taxable investment account? In addition, this job is not my career. It's an entry level position that I am working at as I finish my last semester of college. I will be applying elsewhere and moving on (most likely within 6-12 months), at which point I will rollover this account into an IRA or leave as-is for a while, or whatever makes the most sense at the time.

  • Get Roth IRA maxed
  • Taxable investment

Put money in a Roth IRA while you are still eligible. Hands down. There will be people who tell you that you should put all retirement money in tax-deferred accounts http://www.financialsamurai.com/2012/03/29/disadvantages-of-the-roth-ira-not-all-is-what-it-seems/, but I just don't want to pay unknown tax in the future. I'd rather the devil I know than the devil I don't, and that part is up to personal preference.

MadFIentist comes to the same result as Financial Samurai in a less anti-government way.
http://www.madfientist.com/traditional-ira-vs-roth-ira/ He says in another post that you can cut two years off of your working life if you use tax-deferred accounts over Roths. You need to run the numbers for your particular situation. You have to take into account that you are in one of the lowest tax brackets and therefore prepaying into a Roth might make sense for you, since you are going to be in the same tax bracket probably when you retire.

Have you figured out your retirement expenses? That can be used to determine what tax bracket you need to hit in order to have enough money to live on. Once you have that, then you will know if you should go into your 401k or Roth IRA.


wtjbatman

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Re: 401k without guaranteed company match worth it?
« Reply #3 on: November 15, 2013, 10:28:04 PM »
You need to run the numbers. This question is not a silly, soft question with a vague answer. This is a math question with a definite answer.

Half see your point, half disagree. Having numbers means doing the math, but I'm also looking at vague future possibilities (ie what future career will be/pay/bennies/etc) as opposed to having access to hard numbers and being able to "run them". That's one reason I'm looking for what people think of this 401k instead of asking for a spreadsheet I can just punch some numbers into.

Is that gross or post-tax? There's a huge difference between my gross and net income, since I am taxed more than a Canadian.

Sorry I thought that was obvious, I should have been more clear. The $35,000 is gross.

*snip Roth IRA advice*

That's definitely where I was leaning. My pay is (relatively) low now, and will almost certainly be higher later on. My retirement needs will be sub-$40k a year, as I am a midwest guy and intend to remain in the midwest. And I have no interest in moving to an area with high COL.

In your position I would contribute as much to the 401(k) as you can, setting aside $5500 for a Roth contribution which will benefit you more tax-wise. Your 401(k) sounds like it has pretty good investment options, even if there isn't a match.

I'm definitely feeling the Roth IRA is my best bet for my first $5500 dollars, and then after that... well I can always flip a coin (as the head of every math nerd who reads this explodes)

Charlotte

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Re: 401k without guaranteed company match worth it?
« Reply #4 on: November 16, 2013, 04:01:37 AM »
Just a thought -- at this point in your career, putting money into the 401k will help reduce your AGI. You only need an AGI below $29,500 as a single filer to would qualify for the Saver's Credit on your taxes. Every dollar helps!

See: http://www.irs.gov/Retirement-Plans/Plan-Participant,-Employee/Retirement-Topics-Retirement-Savings-Contributions-Credit-%28Saver%E2%80%99s-Credit%29

chasesfish

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Re: 401k without guaranteed company match worth it?
« Reply #5 on: November 16, 2013, 04:39:30 AM »
Just a thought -- at this point in your career, putting money into the 401k will help reduce your AGI. You only need an AGI below $29,500 as a single filer to would qualify for the Saver's Credit on your taxes. Every dollar helps!

See: http://www.irs.gov/Retirement-Plans/Plan-Participant,-Employee/Retirement-Topics-Retirement-Savings-Contributions-Credit-%28Saver%E2%80%99s-Credit%29

+1 -  If you can pull it off, put as much as you can away and enjoy the free money.  That credit was awesome in my first 2-3 working years

ch12

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Re: 401k without guaranteed company match worth it?
« Reply #6 on: November 16, 2013, 06:53:18 AM »
You need to run the numbers. This question is not a silly, soft question with a vague answer. This is a math question with a definite answer.

Half see your point, half disagree. Having numbers means doing the math, but I'm also looking at vague future possibilities (ie what future career will be/pay/bennies/etc) as opposed to having access to hard numbers and being able to "run them". That's one reason I'm looking for what people think of this 401k instead of asking for a spreadsheet I can just punch some numbers into.
If you want to have input that takes into account your future possibilities, then say that. What is your potential future career once you graduate?
Is that gross or post-tax? There's a huge difference between my gross and net income, since I am taxed more than a Canadian.

Sorry I thought that was obvious, I should have been more clear. The $35,000 is gross.
Just a thought -- at this point in your career, putting money into the 401k will help reduce your AGI. You only need an AGI below $29,500 as a single filer to would qualify for the Saver's Credit on your taxes. Every dollar helps!

See: http://www.irs.gov/Retirement-Plans/Plan-Participant,-Employee/Retirement-Topics-Retirement-Savings-Contributions-Credit-%28Saver%E2%80%99s-Credit%29

+1 -  If you can pull it off, put as much as you can away and enjoy the free money.  That credit was awesome in my first 2-3 working years
Thirded
*snip Roth IRA advice*

That's definitely where I was leaning. My pay is (relatively) low now, and will almost certainly be higher later on. My retirement needs will be sub-$40k a year, as I am a midwest guy and intend to remain in the midwest. And I have no interest in moving to an area with high COL.
You still could hit the 25% tax bracket with a sub-40k lifestyle. Do you have a good projection of your retirement budget?
In your position I would contribute as much to the 401(k) as you can, setting aside $5500 for a Roth contribution which will benefit you more tax-wise. Your 401(k) sounds like it has pretty good investment options, even if there isn't a match.

I'm definitely feeling the Roth IRA is my best bet for my first $5500 dollars, and then after that... well I can always flip a coin (as the head of every math nerd who reads this explodes)

Ramit Sethi's ladder of savings hits your 401k up to the match, then your Roth IRA, then your 401k up to the max. Since you'll have to wait until you have a full time job to max out your 401k (unless you're fine living on your take-home minus $17,500/year), really it's Roth IRA, then 401k.

wtjbatman

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Re: 401k without guaranteed company match worth it?
« Reply #7 on: November 16, 2013, 06:11:54 PM »
Just a thought -- at this point in your career, putting money into the 401k will help reduce your AGI. You only need an AGI below $29,500 as a single filer to would qualify for the Saver's Credit on your taxes. Every dollar helps!

See: http://www.irs.gov/Retirement-Plans/Plan-Participant,-Employee/Retirement-Topics-Retirement-Savings-Contributions-Credit-%28Saver%E2%80%99s-Credit%29

Thanks for the info! That would be great to have. Unfortunately it looks like since I'm a full time student, I'm not eligible. I got excited for nothing! I'll have to keep that in mind for next year though, since I'm graduating this December.

wtjbatman

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Re: 401k without guaranteed company match worth it?
« Reply #8 on: November 16, 2013, 06:16:19 PM »
Ramit Sethi's ladder of savings hits your 401k up to the match, then your Roth IRA, then your 401k up to the max. Since you'll have to wait until you have a full time job to max out your 401k (unless you're fine living on your take-home minus $17,500/year), really it's Roth IRA, then 401k.

Good stuff here, thanks. I had started leaning away from Roth IRA, and was thinking 401k first, but I'm pretty much convinced Roth IRA first is my best bet. After that I'm in an awkward spot where I can't really go wrong with 401k.

Thanks for the helpful information everyone!

 

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