Author Topic: 2 Job Offers - Need Advice  (Read 2124 times)

MrFire22

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2 Job Offers - Need Advice
« on: April 28, 2024, 02:35:08 PM »
All:

I have two offers I'm considering. I'm a lawyer in a VHCOL area..I currently make $230K. I've talked compensation with my current firm and also interviewed with a second firm. Some insight: My wife is expecting and we should be welcoming a child next year. Here's what I'm decideing between:

Current firm:
-$275K new base.
- 5% on out-of-state cases I Iitigate since I'm the only attorney at the firm licenced in those states. The cases are valued anywhere between $200K-$2M
- Work from home
- no 401K match
- 12 week parental leave but pays: $4K per month. So less than fully salary.
- I'm a partner so I get 1% profit from my practice group. Last year it was $110K, but this year might be more since we are doing really well and growing.

Firm 2:
-$300K base
- $100K signing bonus
- promise or $100K end of year bonus at least
- 3 days in the office, but they said they don't strictly enforce that
- 100% 401K match
- Full salary parental leave for 12 weeks.

Part of me wants to go back to my current firm and see if they can agree to $300K base and full salary parental leave.  Then I'd likely stay. I'm generally happy at the current firm

Thoughts?

reeshau

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Re: 2 Job Offers - Need Advice
« Reply #1 on: April 28, 2024, 02:47:30 PM »
Is firm 2 also a partner position?

Is there the same draw for out-of-state cases?  Do you like / value those cases, and that unique angle?

What do you know about the work atmosphere in firm 2?  How does it compare to your current firm?  There's an element here of the devil you know...

I don't generally think going back to sweeten the pot works well with current employers.  They have followed their model to make an offer.  Deviating from that could cause problems down the road--little corners cut here and there to put you back in line.  But, this can vary for specific industries, so maybe it's more common for you.

And, the Mustachian question of, how far is the commute to firm 2's office, in terms of time and distance?  What would it mean to your lifestyle if you did have to go into the office 3 days a week?

mistymoney

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Re: 2 Job Offers - Need Advice
« Reply #2 on: April 28, 2024, 03:28:58 PM »
what is the comparison of usual hours per day and travel?

With a baby on the way - I would prioritze work/life balance. New offer parental leave looks good - make sure you are eligible for it. Not sure if it is still legal but I worked one place you weren't eligible for maternity leave until 9 month of employment....so shady! If you took the job while pregnant you had to resign to get the time off. Seems like that would not be allowed these days, but who knows?

MrFire22

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Re: 2 Job Offers - Need Advice
« Reply #3 on: April 28, 2024, 04:02:13 PM »
The current job, I've been working like crazy, but they are promising me that they will provide more help and change that.

The second job is claiming great work life balance, but honestly it's tough to tell unless you're there. I don't want to commute into the office 3 times a week. I really prefer WFH. It's only a 40-45 min commute via public transportation, but that's each way so it's like 1h 30 of my life 3 days a week.

Both will require some travel too. I'm leaning towards staying if they can 1) match the $300K base and 2) provide full parental leave

reeshau

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Re: 2 Job Offers - Need Advice
« Reply #4 on: April 28, 2024, 04:24:03 PM »
It sounds like you know your priorities.  I think it's smart to start with the one that fulfills your highest priority (WFH) and see about improving it.

The difficulty with a current employer, though, is: what do you do if they say no?  If you cave, then they know your limits, and you have caved.  If you are ready to walk, you risk your biggest win.  Just be aware of what you are prepared to do, before you enter the negotiation, so that you know the tone to take, and don't get forced into a high-stress decision unprepared.

Of course, make sure your spouse is on board, too.  If some scenario does involve moving, that's a big life change for you both.

MrFire22

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Re: 2 Job Offers - Need Advice
« Reply #5 on: April 28, 2024, 05:32:13 PM »
No move required.

MrFire22

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Re: 2 Job Offers - Need Advice
« Reply #6 on: April 28, 2024, 05:34:20 PM »
I'm prepared to go to the second job if the first job doesn't match the base and especially if they don't match the paternity leave.

lucenzo11

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Re: 2 Job Offers - Need Advice
« Reply #7 on: April 28, 2024, 09:48:39 PM »
Look up your state rules on if they have paid parental leave. Sometimes companies only offer a partial benefit because they know the state is picking up the rest. And reverse, some companies claim fully paid parental leave, but in the policy, it actually states that you must take full benefit of the state program and then they'll pay the remainder up to your salary. So just do your homework on each before you assume that the second one is best. You are an attorney so you probably already did this, but just wanted to point it out for others.

Can you elaborate on the compensation discussions you've had with your current employer so far? Like how did this increase offer come up? Did you go and ask for it? Is this their first offer or did you negotiate to that?

JAYSLOL

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Re: 2 Job Offers - Need Advice
« Reply #8 on: April 29, 2024, 07:12:17 AM »
Seems to me like the slightly higher base salary from #2 and 401k match is going to be wiped out by the various profit sharing of #1.  Personally, as someone working a blue collar job looking in from the literal outside, both of those are highly paid positions, and no matter which one comes out technically a bit ahead at the end of the day, my choice would be 100% about work/life balance and company culture rather than $. 

joe189man

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Re: 2 Job Offers - Need Advice
« Reply #9 on: April 29, 2024, 07:30:29 AM »
Why not negotiate more on the out of state cases - i see 5% of $2 mill is $100k so the bonuses match at the high end - i think this would be an easier ask vs getting full pay parental leave. Also something to consider - some companies require you to be an employee for a certain amount of time before you can use parental leave - my company was 6 months of employment prior to birth and i ended up with 4 months -> and didnt get the extra time off with the baby

3 days a week at 48 weeks a year at 1.5 hours per day is 216 hours - so you are essentially "working" (commuting) ~10% more at job 2 (216/2080) just by commuting to the office 3 days a week

with a new baby commuting will not be fun, when the baby comes you will want things as simple as possible

i would focus on higher base comp and higher out of state percentages

zolotiyeruki

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Re: 2 Job Offers - Need Advice
« Reply #10 on: April 29, 2024, 08:47:28 AM »
I don't have much wisdom to offer on the other points, but this one stuck out to me:
The current job, I've been working like crazy, but they are promising me that they will provide more help and change that.
Do you have that promise in writing, with a specific deadline?  If not, you can assume it will not happen.

I've been in waaaay too many situations where my employer made promises that were never fulfilled.  It's not malicious, it's just business--as long as you stay and accomplish the work, your employer has zero incentive to follow through on incentives. In fact, it's in your employer's interest *not* to get you that help, because hiring people to help you costs lots of money.

If you're going to negotiate with your current employer, that additional help ought to be part of the package, and in writing.

Laura33

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Re: 2 Job Offers - Need Advice
« Reply #11 on: April 29, 2024, 09:21:55 AM »
What are the profit-sharing options with the second firm?  As you've presented it, it sounds more like a contract position, with a base salary and guaranteed bonus, but no percentage of firm profits/out-of-state cases.  The profit-sharing is where you can make serious money through other people's efforts.

Don't hyper-fixate on parental leave.  That is a blip over a long career.  Base salary is also almost entirely irrelevant if you're a partner, because you should get trued up at the end of the year based on your performance.  If you are focused on those two things, you run the risk of ignoring the things that matter far more.  You don't want to be in a position where you're jumping firms every couple of years and having to rebuild your practice, so look at the long-term financial and practice implications.  Which firm will help you continue to develop your business?  Do both firms have comparable associate and paralegal support, other partners who can mentor you, marketing support/$$, etc.?  Over the longer-term, you will make far more money from developing a good book of business than you could possibly lose from a couple of months of parental leave. 

The impression I get is that you're still thinking more like an employee than as an owner of the business.  To be a successful partner, it can't be about guaranteed salaries and bonuses -- it has to be about the financial health of the firm, and how well each place will support you and allow/help you to grow your own practice, what kind of associates do they have so you can create your own little pyramid of people who work for you (and whose efforts you get paid for), etc.  I mean, really -- if you're an equity partner, your "salary" is really a draw against the ultimate firm profits, so the difference is entirely immaterial in the end.  (And if you're a non-equity partner, growth of your own business is even more critical, because that's how you get to equity partner).  Which firm offers the best business opportunities -- and will compensate you best for success in those efforts?  How does each firm determine partner compensation -- origination, billable hours, other people's hours, etc.?  Again, those differences have a far greater effect on comp than whatever your base draw is. 

Also, the firm may not be able to vary its parental leave terms -- if it's a firm policy, they need to apply it the same to everyone.  You may have better luck negotiating in other areas. 

IMO, being able to WFH is absolutely killer -- and I have a short commute.  I suspect you may be undervaluing that, particularly with a baby on the way.  But you also need to really think about how much work-life balance matters to you.  You can't really argue for raises/bonuses/etc., at the same time you're arguing to lighten your workload.  You need to figure out how much you really want to work, and then figure out how much each firm will pay you for that.  How much insight do you have into each firm's financials?  At my firm, the expectations for each class are clearly laid out in writing, and we see exactly what everyone else did and how much they got paid.  So when I wanted to drop to 80%, then 60%, then 50%, I could easily tell how much it would cost me.  There's no point in arguing for a raise, because then I'd have to work more to earn it; if my numbers stay the same, I'd just get more up-front and less at the end of the year. 

At a bare minimum, get the baseline expectations for each offer laid out clearly -- you wouldn't want to be jump ship, only to be surprised at what they expect for that $100K bonus.

Finally, does either firm have a profit-sharing that allows some of your EOY $$ to go into your 401(k)?  That's really valuable -- lets me put another c. $35K away pre-tax every year.  I'm getting closer to actual retirement, and every time I think about stepping away, I think "but I'll lose my extra 401(k) money!" and bail.  ;-)

MrFire22

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Re: 2 Job Offers - Need Advice
« Reply #12 on: May 03, 2024, 08:22:18 AM »
All:

Wanted to thank everyone for their advice. I ended up staying with the current firm. They agreed to come up to $300K base pay. 5% on cases where I'm local counsell and 1% on every case assigned to me. It's a pretty sweet deal. Very lucky to be in this position and it makes FIRE likely just 2 years away.

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!