crypto is the new MLM

[i_have_so_much_to_learn]

Is it just me, or is every high school friend talking about crypto like Jordan Belfort talked about Aerotyne Industries (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q0sfpJir8BU) in wolf of wall street? They are all of a sudden talking about investing in crypto like beanie babies in 1999.

I'm not anti crypto, but speculation is different from valuation based on investment and profitable returns.

I feel like this is antimustachian.

anyways, those are my two cents... or should i say, two bitcoins.

anyone else want to share?

[JAYSLOL]

I 100% agree.  I’ve played with crypto, I’ve made a bunch of money too, but at the end of the day it’s a zero sum game with no fundamental value (behind the coins, not necessarily the blockchain).

[Travis]

Been like this for several years. Friends on Facebook who have almost no investing experience are parroting the latest and greatest propaganda or coin prices. Then the world goes silent when the crypto market tanks for a few weeks.

[gooki]

but at the end of the day it’s a zero sum game with no fundamental value (behind the coins, not necessarily the blockchain).

This. Same reason I don't invest in gold or silver, tulips, or foreign exchange. They're not product assets.

[i_have_so_much_to_learn]

People seem to forget that past performance is not indicative of future performance, but there are folks who really believe in it's utility. And the fa t that it's getting so much money might become a self-fulfilling prophesy.... But it isn't a given.

[Kimera757]

Is it just me, or is every high school friend talking about crypto like Jordan Belfort talked about Aerotyne Industries (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q0sfpJir8BU) in wolf of wall street? They are all of a sudden talking about investing in crypto like beanie babies in 1999.

I'm not anti crypto, but speculation is different from valuation based on investment and profitable returns.

I feel like this is antimustachian.

anyways, those are my two cents... or should i say, two bitcoins.

anyone else want to share?

Most people are too impatient to invest properly. Investing in cryptocurrency is a bit like "investing" in horse races. Sure, you might win a bundle (there's always a story about a Bitcoin billionaire, or how much Dogecoin went up last month), but you'll most likely lose what you invest and end so end up worse off.

My interest in cryptocurrency is purely based on the scams. Some have been inventive: the rug pull being a now-common one. (You trick people into buying a new coin, since you can create one with a few hours' work. These coins are often sold for $1 at first and are "backed" by $1 of Tether per coin. You pump the value through advertising. People buy the new coins with Ethereum. Then you quickly sell the coins and make a profit in Ethereum. Anyone who didn't move fast enough gets screwed.) This happens over and over again. It seems like people aren't learning the lesson, but I suspect a few people get burned but new gamblers fall for the next scam. The scammers inundate my Discord (which has no mention of cryptocurrency at all) and Reddit (which has only a few mentions) with messages trying to get me to buy coins. Someone hacked the accounts of several celebrities to promote crypto: I think Elon Musk was a victim of this (and Musk is himself guilty of manipulating the crypto market). Many celebrities get a cut of the profits: I don't think most football players or boxers are credentialed investors, but I guess a lot of new investors seem to think this.

Techlead (a Youtube personality "as a millionaire") spent a lot of time attacking these scams. Then he promoted one. Because of course he would; he could make millions of (more) dollars in a few weeks off of his followers, as if he was selling drugs. He lied about how much "skin" he had in the game. He said he invested $1 million and was selling 1 million tokens for $1 each, but actually invested only $50,000. Think about the leveraging ratio. Leveraging isn't necessarily a bad thing, but you shouldn't lie about it. (Also, that token isn't actually worth more than about 5 cents. He lied about that.)

Speaking of scams, Tether USD is the proverbial drunk president with a nuke (if I can semi-quote The Big Short). Each Tether token is supposedly worth $1 US. It claims that it is backed up by $1 of fiat per token, which is not the case: in fact, it's mathematically impossible. Tether USD is popular because it's a convenient measuring tool for purchasing crypto. You can easily buy Tether with real dollars, but you cannot easily buy other crypto with real dollars. Of course that scheme will eventually collapse (the shady company in charge has had many close shaves already) and when it does the value of most crypto tokens will fall. There is another token worth $1 US that is apparently legitimately backed (by a more reputable crypto company) but I can't remember it's name. Not that I care since I won't even touch one of these stablecoins.

[zolotiyeruki]

This seems like an appropriate place to link the Bitcoin Billionaire spoof in all its glory.  Remy is hilarious!

[Kimera757]

There's lots of scams involving some shiny new TV show, sports team, etc. There's one based on Squid Game. (Awesome show. If you FIRE, you don't have to play!)

https://coinmarketcap.com/alexandria/article/i-lost-everything-how-squid-game-token-collapsed

Unusual tokenomics left investors who bought SQUID trapped — meaning they had no choice but to watch helplessly as the token's value surged to $2,800 and crashed to $0.0007.

Of course this token had no connection to the show. The "white paper" outright tells the victims how they will be scammed, and doesn't even use weasel words like "eliminated". Is it better if new people get scammed, or if it's the same people getting scammed over and over?

[dandarc]

I feel like we hit the "shoeshine boys with stock tips" moment yesterday when I got an email letting me know that there is now a new promotion available:  spend $5 or more ordering food on the Burger King app and, courtesy of BK and Robin Hood, you'll get an (unspecified amount of) crypto.

I am not making this up.

Every coin is 100% backed by onion rings!

[ncornilsen]

I feel like we hit the "shoeshine boys with stock tips" moment yesterday when I got an email letting me know that there is now a new promotion available:  spend $5 or more ordering food on the Burger King app and, courtesy of BK and Robin Hood, you'll get an (unspecified amount of) crypto.

I am not making this up.

Every coin is 100% backed by onion rings!

At least it would have some utility in that case!

[LetsRetireYoung]

Most people are too impatient to invest properly. Investing in cryptocurrency is a bit like "investing" in horse races. Sure, you might win a bundle (there's always a story about a Bitcoin billionaire, or how much Dogecoin went up last month), but you'll most likely lose what you invest and end so end up worse off.

Spot on!

This seems like an appropriate place to link the Bitcoin Billionaire spoof in all its glory.  Remy is hilarious!

I can't believe I've never seen that before! :) The amount of work he put into that... Even reading the "Wells Fargo employee manual" binder when singing how many accounts he opened LOL

For those of you who are new to the idea of crypto, this book is very good at describing the history of that whole industry. The writer tries very hard to be objective and not to make fun of those gamblers, but it's hard to do when describing how one genius suffered permanent brain damage from overheating his bedroom (those servers get hot), or how business partners took out hits on one another, or how a 15-year-old child cobbled together an unholy monstrosity using an old Javascript manual and got people to invest a ton of money hahaha

The recent rise of all the funny-named coins (Doge, DogeWife (or is it WifeDoge?), the SquidGame coin, etc - to me, that's just madness. It looks like the collective consensus that no, these things aren't worth anything, but if you jump in now, you can resell it later. (The so-called Greater Fool Theory.) I'm not saying Bitcoin will stop going up (there's a lot of money to be made and transferred on the dark web, I suppose) but it's such a gamble... Poor Benjamin Graham must be spinning in his grave.

When I declared lean-FIRE 6 months ago, I went to my warehouse for the first time in a year to turn in my badge and my laptop. (I was a WFH financial analyst with Amazon.) The folks who worked there knew that I was retiring, at the ripe old age of 34. :) I dropped by to say goodbye to a few of them (since I'd only ever seen then on webcams), and a couple of them (young dudes, in their mid-20s) took that opportunity to ask me not about the fundamentals of value investing, or how to save money, etc - they asked me which crypto I think they should put their money in. O_o

I like to think I was gentle when I chewed them out for gambling instead of investing... I have a list of 4 books I recommend to everyone who says they want to learn about investing. The first book is The Intelligent Investor by Graham, aka 600 pages of really dense (if wise) stuff. So far, only one person has actually made it through the book - the rest gave up and started shilling crypto coins hahaha

When all of this finally collapses (solar flare or not), my fellow Millennials (and many Zoomers) are going to be so screwed. :( And the worst part is that, unlike the time we got screwed in 2008, this will be entirely self-inflicted.

[roomtempmayo]

There's lots of scams involving some shiny new TV show, sports team, etc. There's one based on Squid Game. (Awesome show. If you FIRE, you don't have to play!)

https://coinmarketcap.com/alexandria/article/i-lost-everything-how-squid-game-token-collapsed

Unusual tokenomics left investors who bought SQUID trapped — meaning they had no choice but to watch helplessly as the token's value surged to $2,800 and crashed to $0.0007.

Of course this token had no connection to the show. The "white paper" outright tells the victims how they will be scammed, and doesn't even use weasel words like "eliminated". Is it better if new people get scammed, or if it's the same people getting scammed over and over?

But, but, but, it's scarce!

Other things that are scarce: Great Aunt Sally's embroidery, wringer washing machines, Ti-83 calculators, Pioneer chainsaws, fresh asbestos.

[LetsRetireYoung]

Other things that are scarce: Great Aunt Sally's embroidery, wringer washing machines, Ti-83 calculators, Pioneer chainsaws, fresh asbestos.

LOL re: fresh asbestos. :) It's like the term "collectible!" in every marketing copy. Why yes, technically speaking, anything can be collectible - even rocks. It still blows my mind that in the mid-1970s, people actually paid money for pet rocks. (Just how many drugs were in the water supply back then? :P )

[Metalcat]

Some very, very intelligent people I know are working in the crypto space, but they fully agree that investing in individual coins is nothing more than speculation, and how blockchain actually plays out in terms of use in the future is promising, but unpredictable.

Then there's the Army of Idiots who keep screaming at me that crypto = $$$$$$$

In truth, it's the raging Army of Idiots who really turn me off crypto. I'm very much trying to understand it, but the amount of fucking morons screaming about it is really off putting.

Like no, sorry, I'm not taking investing advice from someone who doesn't know what equities are and has no idea even how tax deferred accounts work.

[The_Big_H]

I can tell you this...  normally I find it very poor form (and bad for your mental health) to wish/hope for the financial ruin of irritating/seedy people who push some stupid fad speculation/asset/stock/tulip/toy/whatever.  Everyone has to learn the hard way and some do make money and its very much part of human nature.

But the crypto people, yeah I'm pretty much ready for full on schadenfreude when people lose large sums of money over it.    In addition to the extreme annoyingness of crypto-bros, beyond any other speculative field (well beyond gold bugs even); the wanton gigantic waste of electricity/resources and ensuing carbon required (accelerating global warming) for this particular speculation is VERY F**ING maddening to me, to the point I hope they lose and I hope it hurts.

[MudPuppy]

“Crypto is astrology for men” as one internet wit quipped

[Dave1442397]

Attached is an interesting paper on NFTs, Blockchain, etc, and the issues that the author sees with the whole crypto scene.

[Adventine]

“Crypto is astrology for men” as one internet wit quipped

Heh. I like that a lot.

[Metalcat]

“Crypto is astrology for men” as one internet wit quipped

I posted this in the current crypto thread, but we were out visiting DH's family and two of his cousins are super into crypto, despite not understanding it, or money for that matter, at all.

So the one cousin, after lecturing us for a good long time about how we "have to" put all of our money into crypto because it's a "guaranteed win", pays for his coffee with his phone and says "see? that's the future, that's crypto!" he explains that he doesn't even need his bank card, and somehow this relates to crypto???

Note, he wasn't using crypto, he was using either his bank card or his credit card on his phone. So the tech he was marveling at was actually RFID tech, which has what to do with crypto??

So then I try to explain to him that RFID tech is very old, and I tell him about a guy who years ago, pre-crypto had an RFID chip implanted in his arm like a pet and could use it for certain things. And the cousin says "exactly! Crypto!"

I'm not anti crypto, but I am really sick of morons lecturing me about it.

[scottish]

This seems like an appropriate place to link the Bitcoin Billionaire spoof in all its glory.  Remy is hilarious!

Let me just add Remy's Dogecoin rap.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cbI31x3FpS0

[Metalcat]

This seems like an appropriate place to link the Bitcoin Billionaire spoof in all its glory.  Remy is hilarious!

Let me just add Remy's Dogecoin rap.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cbI31x3FpS0

So, so good.

[MudPuppy]

@Malcat is your cousin an Ethereum Classic with Dogecoin in their seventh house? Probably with a Bitcoin moon, because that would be so predictable!

[Metalcat]

@Malcat is your cousin an Ethereum Classic with Dogecoin in their seventh house? Probably with a Bitcoin moon, because that would be so predictable!

Lol!

There's two of them, and they're twins, so that would make sense.

[SpeedReader]

I don't even pretend to understand crypto; I'm not touching the stuff.

[BlueMR2]

I don't even pretend to understand crypto; I'm not touching the stuff.

I understand it and it makes the conservationist/environmentalist in me sick when I think of the waste.

The block chain technology makes the programmer in me makes me sick when I think of the compute scalability issues.

Digital assets in general make the security guy in me sick when I think if the inherent hackability of all things digital (considering how yesteryear's top notch encryption gets easier and easier to break every passing moment).

[zolotiyeruki]

I don't even pretend to understand crypto; I'm not touching the stuff.

I understand it and it makes the conservationist/environmentalist in me sick when I think of the waste.

The block chain technology makes the programmer in me makes me sick when I think of the compute scalability issues.

Digital assets in general make the security guy in me sick when I think if the inherent hackability of all things digital (considering how yesteryear's top notch encryption gets easier and easier to break every passing moment).

There's also the issue of losing the key to your wallet and watching your money go *poof*.  Or watching the owners of an exchange abscond with it.  Or hackers steal it.

The economist in me cringes at the immense waste of potential--all these bright programmers spending their time (and getting paid) to build things that in no way make the world a better place.  The same can be said for all the HFT and quant stuff.

[LonerMatt]

Oh man if you think CRYPTO is a scam have I got news for you: NFTs! An invented and pointless product that provides a further speculative market for people with CRYPTO.

If you like gambling with crypto imagine using crypto to GAMBLE (it's gambling squared baby!). Use any crypto, under the veil of buying and selling art tokens, to get rich quick! Hell yeah.

[ChpBstrd]

Is it just me, or is every high school friend talking about crypto like Jordan Belfort talked about Aerotyne Industries (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q0sfpJir8BU) in wolf of wall street? They are all of a sudden talking about investing in crypto like beanie babies in 1999.

I'm not anti crypto, but speculation is different from valuation based on investment and profitable returns.

I feel like this is antimustachian.

anyways, those are my two cents... or should i say, two bitcoins.

anyone else want to share?

Most people are too impatient to invest properly. Investing in cryptocurrency is a bit like "investing" in horse races. Sure, you might win a bundle (there's always a story about a Bitcoin billionaire, or how much Dogecoin went up last month), but you'll most likely lose what you invest and end so end up worse off.

My interest in cryptocurrency is purely based on the scams. Some have been inventive: the rug pull being a now-common one. (You trick people into buying a new coin, since you can create one with a few hours' work. These coins are often sold for $1 at first and are "backed" by $1 of Tether per coin. You pump the value through advertising. People buy the new coins with Ethereum. Then you quickly sell the coins and make a profit in Ethereum. Anyone who didn't move fast enough gets screwed.) This happens over and over again. It seems like people aren't learning the lesson, but I suspect a few people get burned but new gamblers fall for the next scam. The scammers inundate my Discord (which has no mention of cryptocurrency at all) and Reddit (which has only a few mentions) with messages trying to get me to buy coins. Someone hacked the accounts of several celebrities to promote crypto: I think Elon Musk was a victim of this (and Musk is himself guilty of manipulating the crypto market). Many celebrities get a cut of the profits: I don't think most football players or boxers are credentialed investors, but I guess a lot of new investors seem to think this.

Techlead (a Youtube personality "as a millionaire") spent a lot of time attacking these scams. Then he promoted one. Because of course he would; he could make millions of (more) dollars in a few weeks off of his followers, as if he was selling drugs. He lied about how much "skin" he had in the game. He said he invested $1 million and was selling 1 million tokens for $1 each, but actually invested only $50,000. Think about the leveraging ratio. Leveraging isn't necessarily a bad thing, but you shouldn't lie about it. (Also, that token isn't actually worth more than about 5 cents. He lied about that.)

Speaking of scams, Tether USD is the proverbial drunk president with a nuke (if I can semi-quote The Big Short). Each Tether token is supposedly worth $1 US. It claims that it is backed up by $1 of fiat per token, which is not the case: in fact, it's mathematically impossible. Tether USD is popular because it's a convenient measuring tool for purchasing crypto. You can easily buy Tether with real dollars, but you cannot easily buy other crypto with real dollars. Of course that scheme will eventually collapse (the shady company in charge has had many close shaves already) and when it does the value of most crypto tokens will fall. There is another token worth $1 US that is apparently legitimately backed (by a more reputable crypto company) but I can't remember it's name. Not that I care since I won't even touch one of these stablecoins.

^ This is one of the better demolitions I’ve ever read.

[scottish]

One of the most interesting things about BitCoin is how it has convinced/incentivized thousands of people to buy hardware and pay for electricity to computationally solve problems based around reversing a cryptographic hash.    Satoshi (whoever she is) must be sitting on a beach somewhere, drinking a margarita, chuckling at everyone.

[zolotiyeruki]

Oh man if you think CRYPTO is a scam have I got news for you: NFTs! An invented and pointless product that provides a further speculative market for people with CRYPTO.

If you like gambling with crypto imagine using crypto to GAMBLE (it's gambling squared baby!). Use any crypto, under the veil of buying and selling art tokens, to get rich quick! Hell yeah.

I've heard it said that crypto and NFTs are a bit like artwork.  It's only valuable because it's rare and someone else is willing to spend lots of money on it, not because it has any intrinsic value.  As soon as you run out of suckers to buy it, the value goes to 0.

[Adventine]

Oh man if you think CRYPTO is a scam have I got news for you: NFTs! An invented and pointless product that provides a further speculative market for people with CRYPTO.

If you like gambling with crypto imagine using crypto to GAMBLE (it's gambling squared baby!). Use any crypto, under the veil of buying and selling art tokens, to get rich quick! Hell yeah.

I've heard it said that crypto and NFTs are a bit like artwork.  It's only valuable because it's rare and someone else is willing to spend lots of money on it, not because it has any intrinsic value.  As soon as you run out of suckers to buy it, the value goes to 0.

And when the monetary value does go to 0, you won't even have anything beautiful to show for it.

[MustacheAndaHalf]

Bitcoin is controversial - if everyone agrees on it, you might be in an echo chamber.

The Chicago Mercantile Exchange does not seem to view it as a scam.
https://www.cmegroup.com/education/bitcoin/cme-bitcoin-futures-frequently-asked-questions.html

[scottish]

The CME doesn't offer an opinion as to whether BitCoin is a scam or not.   They're offering futures contracts for BitCoin.   This seems natural since the CME makes its money by brokering financial derivatives...

[MustacheAndaHalf]

You can view the full source code that Bitcoin's Blockchain uses, and all the data captured in blocks since it's 2009 beginning.  What percentage of scams are fully transparent about all of their processes and all of their data?

[ChpBstrd]

The CME doesn't offer an opinion as to whether BitCoin is a scam or not.   They're offering futures contracts for BitCoin.   This seems natural since the CME makes its money by brokering financial derivatives...

Levi Strauss became rich selling jeans to gold prospectors, most of whom went broke and never found anything. I don't think the presence of financial vendors catering to people with a certain economic theory is a reliable sign of that theory's validity, or future returns. There would have to be some kind of economic vacuum or a law against it for there not to be funds and futures market makers siphoning off a portion of  the flood of investor dollars into crypto.

I fully expect we will soon see "ultra" leveraged futures funds to short cryptos, run by the same companies selling "ultra" long futures funds, just like with the indices and VIX.

[YttriumNitrate]

I've pretty much watched exclusively NetFlix / Prime for the past decade or so, and my live TV watching occurs at other people's houses. This Thanksgiving at the in-laws there was a football game on, and while the game was boring, it was interesting to see the current state of commercials. From what I could surmise, the commercials tended fell into one of three categories: 1) vehicle commercials (mostly trucks), 2) medication commercials that don't tell what the medication is supposed to treat, and 3) gambling commercials.

The gambling commercials were mainly sports betting related, but Matt Damon's hawking of crypto seemed eerily similar to Whoppi Goldberg hawking Flooz a couple decades ago.

[GuitarStv]

At the dinner table yesterday, my eight year old son asked me if he could have a bitcoin for his birthday because "that's how you get rich".

:S

[dandarc]

At the dinner table yesterday, my eight year old son asked me if he could have a bitcoin for his birthday because "that's how you get rich".

:S

Sell it at 8 and get an extra decade or two of compounding in real investments - indeed a whole bitcoin for your 8th birthday could make you rich.

[elaine amj]

Sigh. My DS’ best friend (19) has made a killing with crypto and daytrading this past year. He has tons of followers on Discord, etc. So much so that he is taking time off from university this year to make a ton of money. And my son plans to join him in the summer.

I shake my head, bite my tongue, and made sure the vast bulk of DS’ money is tucked away into Van guard as a retirement nest egg.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[talltexan]

Is it just me, or is every high school friend talking about crypto like Jordan Belfort talked about Aerotyne Industries (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q0sfpJir8BU) in wolf of wall street? They are all of a sudden talking about investing in crypto like beanie babies in 1999.

I'm not anti crypto, but speculation is different from valuation based on investment and profitable returns.

I feel like this is antimustachian.

anyways, those are my two cents... or should i say, two bitcoins.

anyone else want to share?

Most people are too impatient to invest properly. Investing in cryptocurrency is a bit like "investing" in horse races. Sure, you might win a bundle (there's always a story about a Bitcoin billionaire, or how much Dogecoin went up last month), but you'll most likely lose what you invest and end so end up worse off.

My interest in cryptocurrency is purely based on the scams. Some have been inventive: the rug pull being a now-common one. (You trick people into buying a new coin, since you can create one with a few hours' work. These coins are often sold for $1 at first and are "backed" by $1 of Tether per coin. You pump the value through advertising. People buy the new coins with Ethereum. Then you quickly sell the coins and make a profit in Ethereum. Anyone who didn't move fast enough gets screwed.) This happens over and over again. It seems like people aren't learning the lesson, but I suspect a few people get burned but new gamblers fall for the next scam. The scammers inundate my Discord (which has no mention of cryptocurrency at all) and Reddit (which has only a few mentions) with messages trying to get me to buy coins. Someone hacked the accounts of several celebrities to promote crypto: I think Elon Musk was a victim of this (and Musk is himself guilty of manipulating the crypto market). Many celebrities get a cut of the profits: I don't think most football players or boxers are credentialed investors, but I guess a lot of new investors seem to think this.

Techlead (a Youtube personality "as a millionaire") spent a lot of time attacking these scams. Then he promoted one. Because of course he would; he could make millions of (more) dollars in a few weeks off of his followers, as if he was selling drugs. He lied about how much "skin" he had in the game. He said he invested $1 million and was selling 1 million tokens for $1 each, but actually invested only $50,000. Think about the leveraging ratio. Leveraging isn't necessarily a bad thing, but you shouldn't lie about it. (Also, that token isn't actually worth more than about 5 cents. He lied about that.)

Speaking of scams, Tether USD is the proverbial drunk president with a nuke (if I can semi-quote The Big Short). Each Tether token is supposedly worth $1 US. It claims that it is backed up by $1 of fiat per token, which is not the case: in fact, it's mathematically impossible. Tether USD is popular because it's a convenient measuring tool for purchasing crypto. You can easily buy Tether with real dollars, but you cannot easily buy other crypto with real dollars. Of course that scheme will eventually collapse (the shady company in charge has had many close shaves already) and when it does the value of most crypto tokens will fall. There is another token worth $1 US that is apparently legitimately backed (by a more reputable crypto company) but I can't remember it's name. Not that I care since I won't even touch one of these stablecoins.

This is a great analogy. I think people fall into trouble when they approach this kind of project without a clear plan, including working out in advance how they will respond to market movements.

My own attempt to ride this tiger is detailed here: https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/journals/tall-texan's-crypto-trading-journal/msg2926673/#msg2926673

I've tried to create a system to reduce risk but still benefit from the high volatility as I build up to a significant position in crypto.

[js82]

Is it just me, or is every high school friend talking about crypto like Jordan Belfort talked about Aerotyne Industries (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q0sfpJir8BU) in wolf of wall street? They are all of a sudden talking about investing in crypto like beanie babies in 1999.

I'm not anti crypto, but speculation is different from valuation based on investment and profitable returns.

I feel like this is antimustachian.

anyways, those are my two cents... or should i say, two bitcoins.

anyone else want to share?

Meme coins are literally the MLM/Ponzi model in action.

"I'm going to buy this coin with no use case and a super tiny market cap, and hype it up to everyone in hopes that the price goes up and I can make a ton of money"

I'm actually pro-crypto(or more accurately, pro-blockchain) from a technology standpoint(and own a non-trivial amount of it) but the mania around a bunch of nonsensical memecoins with no use case is reminiscent of the overvalued garbage from the late 90's dotcom bubble.

[thesis]

Has anybody else experienced this as a particular trend with conservative or libertarian friends? It seems to me that the people I know who have been buying these cryptocurrencies are all toeing the middle/far right political line, I guess because they think government is bad, crypto is the way to escape inflation caused by said dirty government, and going decentralized will solve all the world's problems, or something like that? Just curious, because that has been my experience. I even swing conservative on several issues, but it seems to me that many people I know are choosing to buy cryptocurrencies because of some weird desire to see libertarian dreams come true, not necessarily because there is anything particularly compelling about crypto. It's like they are choosing to believe something because it tells them what they want to hear, not because of any compelling evidence?

[zolotiyeruki]

Has anybody else experienced this as a particular trend with conservative or libertarian friends? It seems to me that the people I know who have been buying these cryptocurrencies are all toeing the middle/far right political line, I guess because they think government is bad, crypto is the way to escape inflation caused by said dirty government, and going decentralized will solve all the world's problems, or something like that? Just curious, because that has been my experience. I even swing conservative on several issues, but it seems to me that many people I know are choosing to buy cryptocurrencies because of some weird desire to see libertarian dreams come true, not necessarily because there is anything particularly compelling about crypto. It's like they are choosing to believe something because it tells them what they want to hear, not because of any compelling evidence?

I'm mostly surrounded by conservative folks, and while a few have speculated in crypto, the vast, vast majority have zero interest.  The get-rich-off-crypto runs pretty counter to the whole protestant work ethic.

[Metalcat]

Has anybody else experienced this as a particular trend with conservative or libertarian friends? It seems to me that the people I know who have been buying these cryptocurrencies are all toeing the middle/far right political line, I guess because they think government is bad, crypto is the way to escape inflation caused by said dirty government, and going decentralized will solve all the world's problems, or something like that? Just curious, because that has been my experience. I even swing conservative on several issues, but it seems to me that many people I know are choosing to buy cryptocurrencies because of some weird desire to see libertarian dreams come true, not necessarily because there is anything particularly compelling about crypto. It's like they are choosing to believe something because it tells them what they want to hear, not because of any compelling evidence?

100%

All of the crypto bros I know who are hyped about meme coins are particularly anti-government, right wing, oil and gas types.

But I'm talking the Canadian version of right wing, so a very different creature than what you might be talking about.

[NaN]

I thought this was a good article (paywall): https://www.nytimes.com/2021/12/10/opinion/cash-crypto-trust-money.html

There are now more dollars circulating outside the United States than in it.

Bitcoin and other volatile cryptocurrencies, while popular as speculative investments, by and large, aren’t useful for everyday transactions, making them more akin to financial assets than to money.

Modern monetary theory says money is not just a social institution; it’s valuable because national governments require it for payment of taxes and fees.

In the United States, there is not an urgent crisis of trust when it comes to government-issued money.

The two new kinds of money that are rising as cash falls are stablecoins and central bank digital currencies. Stablecoins, which like Bitcoin exist in virtual ledgers, are issued by private entities that promise to convert them on demand into government money or some other asset at a fixed exchange rate. “The irony here is that cryptocurrencies were supposed to get us away from official money, whereas the ones that seem to work as a medium of exchange are backed by official money,” said Dr. Prasad, the Cornell economist, who is the author of a new book, “The Future of Money: How the Digital Revolution Is Transforming Currencies and Finance.”

The problem for stablecoin issuers is that to make their promise of convertibility rock solid, they would need to hold $1 in cash in reserve for every dollar stablecoin they put into circulation. That’s a lot of money for them to have tied up earning no return. The temptation is to invest the reserves to earn some kind of return. But that makes the reserves less than perfectly safe.

Central bank digital currency is less anonymous than cash, which makes it less useful to criminals but likewise more of a threat to the privacy of law-abiding citizens. It could also be programmed to be used for only certain purposes, which many people would regard as an infringement on their liberty.

[thesis]

I'm mostly surrounded by conservative folks, and while a few have speculated in crypto, the vast, vast majority have zero interest.  The get-rich-off-crypto runs pretty counter to the whole protestant work ethic.

100%

All of the crypto bros I know who are hyped about meme coins are particularly anti-government, right wing, oil and gas types.

But I'm talking the Canadian version of right wing, so a very different creature than what you might be talking about.

Okay, good to see two perspectives. It must really depend on who you happen to know, but might happen to have a strong appeal to the more conservative types.

I've wondered sometimes if that's why it's so difficult to have meaningful discussions about crypto currencies, if it's almost turned into something a political issue, what people think should be vs. what is, but I would probably have to look at a larger sample size to draw conclusions. At most it might be the line of thinking that spreads from person to person. If it's true, though, I wonder if that determination to "vote" for what "should be" is propping up a lot of values. It's just very curious to me.

[Metalcat]

I'm mostly surrounded by conservative folks, and while a few have speculated in crypto, the vast, vast majority have zero interest.  The get-rich-off-crypto runs pretty counter to the whole protestant work ethic.

100%

All of the crypto bros I know who are hyped about meme coins are particularly anti-government, right wing, oil and gas types.

But I'm talking the Canadian version of right wing, so a very different creature than what you might be talking about.

Okay, good to see two perspectives. It must really depend on who you happen to know, but might happen to have a strong appeal to the more conservative types.

I've wondered sometimes if that's why it's so difficult to have meaningful discussions about crypto currencies, if it's almost turned into something a political issue, what people think should be vs. what is, but I would probably have to look at a larger sample size to draw conclusions. At most it might be the line of thinking that spreads from person to person. If it's true, though, I wonder if that determination to "vote" for what "should be" is propping up a lot of values. It's just very curious to me.

Of course, "right wing" isn't a monolith.

The right wing oil and gas yahoos I'm talking about are a totally different creature from the right wing financial executives I'm friends with.

Also, the crypto experts I know are actually staunch left wingers, and again, we're talking Canadian left wing, so actual left wing, not US right of center "left wing".

Very left wing folks can be even more staunchly anti-establishment.

But there's a major demographic difference between DH's very entertaining cousin who thinks paying with CAD from his phone is somehow evidence of the impending takeover of crypto vs my colleague who is such a massive player in the crypto world that I'm currently seeing 5-10 articles a day about him in my newsfeed.

It's hard to generalize about crypto because those interested in it range from highly technically knowledgeable to fucking clueless.

That's like trying to generalize about people who buy Apple stock. It's impossible to paint with a broad brush.

That said you will likely HEAR about is most from outspoken libertarian right wingers because they just happen to be a particularly vocal group.

[ChpBstrd]

I'm mostly surrounded by conservative folks, and while a few have speculated in crypto, the vast, vast majority have zero interest.  The get-rich-off-crypto runs pretty counter to the whole protestant work ethic.

100%

All of the crypto bros I know who are hyped about meme coins are particularly anti-government, right wing, oil and gas types.

But I'm talking the Canadian version of right wing, so a very different creature than what you might be talking about.

Okay, good to see two perspectives. It must really depend on who you happen to know, but might happen to have a strong appeal to the more conservative types.

I've wondered sometimes if that's why it's so difficult to have meaningful discussions about crypto currencies, if it's almost turned into something a political issue, what people think should be vs. what is, but I would probably have to look at a larger sample size to draw conclusions. At most it might be the line of thinking that spreads from person to person. If it's true, though, I wonder if that determination to "vote" for what "should be" is propping up a lot of values. It's just very curious to me.

Of course, "right wing" isn't a monolith.

The right wing oil and gas yahoos I'm talking about are a totally different creature from the right wing financial executives I'm friends with.

Also, the crypto experts I know are actually staunch left wingers, and again, we're talking Canadian left wing, so actual left wing, not US right of center "left wing".

Very left wing folks can be even more staunchly anti-establishment.

But there's a major demographic difference between DH's very entertaining cousin who thinks paying with CAD from his phone is somehow evidence of the impending takeover of crypto vs my colleague who is such a massive player in the crypto world that I'm currently seeing 5-10 articles a day about him in my newsfeed.

It's hard to generalize about crypto because those interested in it range from highly technically knowledgeable to fucking clueless.

That's like trying to generalize about people who buy Apple stock. It's impossible to paint with a broad brush.

That said you will likely HEAR about is most from outspoken libertarian right wingers because they just happen to be a particularly vocal group.

I still remember the day, and what the high school classroom looked like, when one of my teachers went off-curriculum and demonstrated that left-wing and right-wing actually form a circle instead of a linear spectrum. At some point all extremism meets at a point called authoritarianism, which is a functionally similar perspective whether it is branded communism, fascism, theocracy, or monarchism. It was one of those mind-blowing moments when everything that hadn't made sense for years suddenly fell together.

The people I know who are attracted to crypto tend to feel aggrieved and like they're living in a world under the control of malicious government/banking actors. This perspective has become the left-wing/right-wing consensus in the past couple of decades, although they differ on the specific definition of the villain.

Crypto fits into the narrative as a way to achieve personal liberation from the obligation to work. According to the narrative, this obligation is imposed on us by the government's financial system*. The fantasy of becoming a crypto millionaire is about achieving independence and escaping a system where you save to buy a house only to watch the price go up, work to earn a promotion only to get laid off, try your hand at day trading only to lose tens of thousands, get conned on the internet at least monthly, and fall behind playing by the rules while unethical people get rich.

Thus the same people who envision the mainstream world as a con job are attracted to both crypto and authoritarian leaders who promise to smash the allegedly oppressive existing systems.

*Note that the MMM narrative, in contrast, says the obligation to work is imposed on us by our own failures to control spending, endure tiny inconveniences, and live more simply. MMM promotes an internal locus of control, whereas the people buying crypto and going after long shots on Wall Street Bets envision their gambles as the only way to have a chance at escaping circumstances that the external world imposes upon them. When people troll MMM, this is their usual message - that it is actually impossible to escape external circumstances such as housing expenses, health insurance costs, and inflation. Whether their conclusion is that we should give up and become consumerists or that we should gamble our way to liberation, the critics, like ideologues, are revolting against the concept of self-accountability.

[boarder42]

why am i see the term locus of control here more and more frequently? i had never heard of this term til Malcat used it in a pitty party self deprication FIRE is the enemy thread. 

[js82]

Has anybody else experienced this as a particular trend with conservative or libertarian friends? It seems to me that the people I know who have been buying these cryptocurrencies are all toeing the middle/far right political line, I guess because they think government is bad, crypto is the way to escape inflation caused by said dirty government, and going decentralized will solve all the world's problems, or something like that? Just curious, because that has been my experience. I even swing conservative on several issues, but it seems to me that many people I know are choosing to buy cryptocurrencies because of some weird desire to see libertarian dreams come true, not necessarily because there is anything particularly compelling about crypto. It's like they are choosing to believe something because it tells them what they want to hear, not because of any compelling evidence?

100%

All of the crypto bros I know who are hyped about meme coins are particularly anti-government, right wing, oil and gas types.

But I'm talking the Canadian version of right wing, so a very different creature than what you might be talking about.

In the US, there's a definite right-wing/libertarian subset of the crypto community.  Many of the crypto "true believers" are in this category.  Their belief system is akin to the gold hoarders of the older generation (common theme: The Fed is evil/ Money printer go BRRR/ distrust of government + OMG bitcoin is "scarce" so it doesn't matter whether or not it has intrinsic value).  I've met people in this group, and they are a very real portion of the crypto community.  Many of the group are less memecoin-focused and more Bitcoin diehards (because SCARCITY OMG).

There's also a technocratic element to the cryptocurrency community, which spans from the center-right to pretty darn liberal.  Among this I include one of my friends, who is currently running the cryptocurrency equivalent of a hedge fund(and who is relatively liberal, by American standards at least).  This group believes in decentralization/Web 3.0, and that blockchain will be a driving force in the next evolution of the internet.  This group is less meme-oriented, and more technology/future focused.

As someone who is relatively liberal and technocratic(with a healthy dose of pragmatism) myself, I tend to align with the 2nd view - blockchain/cryptocurrency is coming up a demand curve, and the price will evolve accordingly.  However, most crypocurrencies are not productive assets, and hence are no longer assets I'd hold once the adoption cycle has reached its conclusion.

I've observed less of any particular political disposition among the memecoin followers, and more of the type of people that are prone to following the latest fad/get-rich-quick scheme(think: essential oils, CBD-everything, etc.) without a ton of critical thought.