Why is a 40 hour work week normal, are most fine with this?

[purplish]

Honestly I find a standard 40 hour week to be exhausting and super time consuming! It's hard for me to get everything done in general, once I get home I just want to plop down on the couch and rest. For me personally I know I'm in a good situation though, as I only need to be full time for 1 more year. But the thought of 40 hours a week the rest of one's life sounds super draining. Why as a society did we agree to this?? However I also feel like for some it's perfectly fine and they function great at 40 hours, or even 50-60.

[RFAAOATB]

Didn't Henry Ford figure out that after 40 hours worker productivity declined?  Before hand they were working more.

Now that manufacturing technology and productivity has outpaced previous demand, we as a society would rather demand more and work for it than work less and live off less than we could have otherwise.

[Blonde Lawyer]

I feel like there is no 40 hour work week anymore.  I think most jobs expect 45 or 40.  Or you have to be away from home minimum of 45 because you have a one hour unpaid lunch. 40 hours is now the minimum, and you don't want to be someone who just does the minimum do you? (Cue Office Space here.)  I never quite understood why we all have to pretend we want to be at work rather than elsewhere and then I worked with someone always moaning and groaning that she wished she could go home early.  Then I realized how annoying it is to be around unhappy people and why we expect everyone to just pretend they are happy.

Your post just made me chuckle because I was considering posting asking where the 40 hour work week went.  I'm glad you still have one and hope you get to escape it soon.

[seanc0x0]

I am right there with you!  By the time the day is done I'm often completely knackered mentally and all I want to do is veg out when I get home instead of doing fun stuff with the kids or get things done around the house. 

I've brought up the possibility of going to four day work weeks, but you'd think I asked them for a 150% pay raise given the response. I'm just lucky that overtime is incredibly rare here.  Just another reason to push for FI.

[Gin1984]

Didn't Henry Ford figure out that after 40 hours worker productivity declined?  Before hand they were working more.

Now that manufacturing technology and productivity has outpaced previous demand, we as a society would rather demand more and work for it than work less and live off less than we could have otherwise.

For manufacturing etc, that is true and had been studied not by Ford but was implemented by him.  More recent studies show that for more intellectual job the actual time before there is a lack of productivity is 6hr/day/5 days a week.  It takes a bit for that productivity to decline (I may be misremembering but I think the study said the average was six weeks).

[Hall11235]

Trapped in the 45 hour work week here. Our bosses talk about how great an hour unpaid lunch is. I would just rather skip it and leave at 4. Honestly, my productivity drops exponentially after about 11:30. Something about the morning person in me. I could do my week's work in 15 hours if I wanted. Most of my time is spent waiting on others to make decisions (I am my bosse's B****, he'll spout an idea, tell me to build it and then, I have to wait to see fif it gets his approval).

[golden1]

My job is technically 40 hours a week, but between lunch and my commute, I am out of the house 11-12 hours per weekday for work related stuff.   I do manage to work out and do other stuff, but it makes very little time for anything fun. 

[seanc0x0]

With 280 hours in the week, I don't think that 40 hours is too horrible.

I guess it depends on the type of work you do. For me, no two days are the same. There is definitely time to walk around and take breaks, plus I actually enjoy my job.

Check your math. 24x7 is 168, not 280.

[2Birds1Stone]

Whooops, I guess 38 hours at work this week really gave me Friday afternoon fuzzy brain syndrome =D

[mschaus]

We should all be thanking our lucky stars for 40hrs! Don't forget the history:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eight-hour_day

But really, a mustachian's working career is only 15hrs/wk when spread over the whole career time (45yrs) that we could have been working, so industrialization and automation really has brought us (smart people) a shorter work week.

[Gin1984]

We should all be thanking our lucky stars for 40hrs! Don't forget the history:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eight-hour_day

But really, a mustachian's working career is only 15hrs/wk when spread over the whole career time (45yrs) that we could have been working, so industrialization and automation really has brought us (smart people) a shorter work week.

And is it a surprise that with unions getting less power, more and more people are working more than 40 hours (many without OT)?

[purplish]

We should all be thanking our lucky stars for 40hrs! Don't forget the history:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eight-hour_day

But really, a mustachian's working career is only 15hrs/wk when spread over the whole career time (45yrs) that we could have been working, so industrialization and automation really has brought us (smart people) a shorter work week.

Oh it's totally true, we are lucky in that sense. The 9-5 is just mind numbing though.

[AZDude]

The thing is, after 6 hours at work, productivity declines significantly. Work days should be 6 hours long, just to get maximum efficiency.

[willikers]

I like my hour lunch. I hop on the bus at the depot across the street from my office, do some reading, sketching or sound design on my tablet during the 15 minute (30 minutes both ways) bus trip, and spend the other half hour eating/catching up with my wife and 2 year old (although the boy is usually napping when I come home).

I'm allowed 2 15-minute breaks outside of that (paid) which I usually don't take, but I can walk away from my desk at any point and not have anyone bat an eye if I tell someone I am going for a walk (which is usually what I do with the time, should I need it).

I work a desk job, so I'm never tired when I get home (maybe mentally on an especially demanding day), so I still have plenty of energy to cook dinner for the family, give the boy a bath and play with matchbox cars before he goes to bed. From there I can catch up on some chores and grab a little bit of TV/cuddle time with the lady right before bed.

I really have a great life. 8-5 has been a huge boon to my peace of mind and work-life balance.

[mtn]

I work a desk job, so I'm never tired when I get home (maybe mentally on an especially demanding day), so I still have plenty of energy to cook dinner for the family, give the boy a bath and play with matchbox cars before he goes to bed. From there I can catch up on some chores and grab a little bit of TV/cuddle time with the lady right before bed.

I really have a great life. 8-5 has been a huge boon to my peace of mind and work-life balance.

Maybe it is my hour long commute each way (spent reading or sleeping) or my bonkered sleep schedule and my getting older (25 now, so not that old). but I find that I have way less energy at the end of the day working the desk job than I do when I spend the day doing yard work, or golfing, or playing hockey.  Object in motion and all that.

[CashFlowDiaries]

HA! I ask myself the same question every day.  I dont understand how most people are okay with this.  This cant be how we are meant to live.  I learned years ago that I can not continue living my life going to the same place every single day, for the same hours doing the same crap.  It really drives me crazy thinking about it.

This is the absolute MAIN reason why I am reaching FIRE super aggressively right now.  I will do everything I can to get out of this RAT RACE.  As of recently, Im finally making enough passive income to pay all my bills but not be able to accommodate food,entertainment and travel which I absolutely need to.

So for now, I will continue working this crap 40 hour work week but Im not excited about it for one second! 

[willikers]

It is worth pointing out that as Mustachians, I think we all feel the 40 hr work week is crap, otherwise we wouldn't want to FIRE.

I do think that it is still pretty cushy, all things considered. That being said, I have thought about leaving commercial banking and going to work as a lineman at the local power company for $40/hr @ 70 hours a week. That would allow me to FIRE in 3-4 years (max) instead of 20 (best case scenario at current savings rate/income).

[Gone Fishing]

Do your best to work more and more personal items into the day to free up time outside of work, that is how most of the working world has evolved to compensate...

[Blonde Lawyer]

Do your best to work more and more personal items into the day to free up time outside of work, that is how most of the working world has evolved to compensate...

True dat.  And also, not always by choice.  If I need to deal w/ my doctor's office or insurance company, I need to call during the same hours I am at work.

[forummm]

In the US we have a work hard, spend hard culture. My understanding is that the workweek isn't quite as long in much of Europe, and they get way more time off than the average American. And I think I saw recently that people in the US don't even take half the time off they are allotted! It's the US culture.

[NoraLenderbee]

With 280 hours in the week, I don't think that 40 hours is too horrible.

I guess it depends on the type of work you do. For me, no two days are the same. There is definitely time to walk around and take breaks, plus I actually enjoy my job.

Check your math. 24x7 is 168, not 280.

If there really were 280 hours in a week, 40 wouldn't seem like a lot. :)

[okits]

Forty hours isn't that much, but they're usually the best waking hours and they take precedence over just about everything else.  If you're spending those 40 hours doing something unenjoyable, then yes, it sucks.

[Blonde Lawyer]

In the US we have a work hard, spend hard culture. My understanding is that the workweek isn't quite as long in much of Europe, and they get way more time off than the average American. And I think I saw recently that people in the US don't even take half the time off they are allotted! It's the US culture.

Or we at least have to pretend we would rather be working.  Few people in my profession use their vacation time just to use it.  There are few staycations.  Rather we hear reasons they need to use it and they are said begrudgingly rather than with excitement.  "Well, the kids are out of school in February so I guess I'll need to take those days off, sigh."  Or "Got to make the yearly trek to see the in-laws."  Or "It's my anniversary, got to take the wife somewhere nice for a week."  Everyone seems to pretend they would rather be at work when we know it is just an act and we are all thrilled to get some time off.  I was so happy one boss finally said he loved the weekends and that he only worked them when he had to.

[mtn]

I was caught up in a project yesterday, and didn't notice what time it was, and I missed my train. No point in going to the train station early, all that would have happened is I would have had a beer or two. So I stayed and worked for another 15 minutes. At 5:03, my boss was leaving and asked "Jeez mtn, you working late?"

I like it here. We also get 22 days of vacation and 10 Holidays a year, and my bosses bosses boss usually tells us to go home at 2PM the day before a holiday--that is really great, because it basically gives me another half day of vacation every time--for instance, normally on Christmas eve I would take at least a half day if not a whole day. But because I know he'll tell us to leave early, I just come in to work and leave at 2, and take a whole day the day after Christams.

[Schaefer Light]

My biggest complaint is that we're keeping track of work hours at all.  Shouldn't we be more concerned with results and less concerned with hours?  As a manager, if you give me a choice between two employees - one who can perform a task in 2 hours and one who takes 8 hours - I'm taking the guy who can do it in 2 hours every time.  If he chooses to go home after his 2 hours of work, then who gives a damn?  The task has still been completed.  The really crazy thing is that the guy who finishes in 2 hours and goes home is viewed as a slacker while the slow guy is viewed as hard-working.

[forummm]

My biggest complaint is that we're keeping track of work hours at all.  Shouldn't we be more concerned with results and less concerned with hours?  As a manager, if you give me a choice between two employees - one who can perform a task in 2 hours and one who takes 8 hours - I'm taking the guy who can do it in 2 hours every time.  If he chooses to go home after his 2 hours of work, then who gives a damn?  The task has still been completed.  The really crazy thing is that the guy who finishes in 2 hours and goes home is viewed as a slacker while the slow guy is viewed as hard-working.

The world would be a better place for workers if more management had your perspective.

Also, are you hiring? :)

[Rezdent]

My biggest complaint is that we're keeping track of work hours at all.  Shouldn't we be more concerned with results and less concerned with hours?  As a manager, if you give me a choice between two employees - one who can perform a task in 2 hours and one who takes 8 hours - I'm taking the guy who can do it in 2 hours every time.  If he chooses to go home after his 2 hours of work, then who gives a damn?  The task has still been completed.  The really crazy thing is that the guy who finishes in 2 hours and goes home is viewed as a slacker while the slow guy is viewed as hard-working.

I took a work-sponsored class in generational diversity and this was a topic.  Seems like younger generations prefer free time to more work.

[nobodyspecial]

In the US we have a work hard, spend hard culture. My understanding is that the workweek isn't quite as long in much of Europe, and they get way more time off than the average American. And I think I saw recently that people in the US don't even take half the time off they are allotted! It's the US culture.

http://www.economist.com/blogs/freeexchange/2015/07/extreme-working-hours

[forward]

I won't say I wish I had a 40 hour work week but the reality for me is 50-60 plus hours a week.  It's just what is expected.  Just last week my supervisor said to me that we need to strategize how to get people out of the mentality that it is ok to leave at 5:30..."they need to be here late into the evening to really be accomplishing anything."  I usually get in at 7 and I am suppossed to set an example.

Thats why I want out....

[ncornilsen]

My biggest complaint is that we're keeping track of work hours at all.  Shouldn't we be more concerned with results and less concerned with hours?  As a manager, if you give me a choice between two employees - one who can perform a task in 2 hours and one who takes 8 hours - I'm taking the guy who can do it in 2 hours every time.  If he chooses to go home after his 2 hours of work, then who gives a damn?  The task has still been completed.  The really crazy thing is that the guy who finishes in 2 hours and goes home is viewed as a slacker while the slow guy is viewed as hard-working.

This is a very naïve mindset, to be frank. Most places seem to load up every worker so much, that even Two Hour Timmy has 10 hours a day of stuff to do Even if he got more done than anyone else, a bunch of stuff still ISN'T done, and it isn't defensible to go home after two hours in that situation.

[woodnut]

Before I found MMM I didn't know there were any alternatives myself.  Today is my first Friday off of working part time.  It was amazing how much push back I got trying to negotiate this.  It took me 8 months to finally succeed.  I guess they were afraid everybody else would ask for the same arrangement (not likely, plenty of X5's and brand new Silverado's in the parking lot and $500K mortgages to go around).  I was only successful because of FU money.  In the end I mustered enough courage to suggest 4 days a week or 0 days a week.  I'm sure I'm on higher ups shit list now, but I'm happy with my new 32 hour work week. 

[11ducks]

I hate that I spend most of my waking hours, most days of the week at work! And that we do that for most of our lives. I teach, so I get a lot of weeks off on hols (though the time on can be pretty stressful), but still. I'm hoping to reduce this to 3 days a week from about 45 onwards life is for living!  I want to spend my time climbing and exploring and volunteering and drawing and living life!!! I realise how incredibly lucky we are to live in a society where we can save and retire early.

[mpg350]

I am on a flex schedule and work 4 10 hour days and have Wednesday off...I love this schedule
wish more places would go to that type of schedule. 

[Albert]

In the US we have a work hard, spend hard culture. My understanding is that the workweek isn't quite as long in much of Europe, and they get way more time off than the average American. And I think I saw recently that people in the US don't even take half the time off they are allotted! It's the US culture.

I'm living in Switzerland and my work week is pretty long as well. Usually leaving home at 7:30 am and returning shortly before 7 pm and occasionally I would do some work related stuff on weekends as well.  It's true about a lot more vacation however and everyone takes it in full.

[Neustache]

Before I found MMM I didn't know there were any alternatives myself.  Today is my first Friday off of working part time.  It was amazing how much push back I got trying to negotiate this.  It took me 8 months to finally succeed.  I guess they were afraid everybody else would ask for the same arrangement (not likely, plenty of X5's and brand new Silverado's in the parking lot and $500K mortgages to go around).  I was only successful because of FU money.  In the end I mustered enough courage to suggest 4 days a week or 0 days a week.  I'm sure I'm on higher ups shit list now, but I'm happy with my new 32 hour work week. 

Congrats, Woodnut! 

[zoltani]

In the US we have a work hard, spend hard culture. My understanding is that the workweek isn't quite as long in much of Europe, and they get way more time off than the average American. And I think I saw recently that people in the US don't even take half the time off they are allotted! It's the US culture.

Not exactly true. In France, home of the 35 hr work week (HAHA), my wife often worked 12 and 14 hour days. On the flip side she got 5 weeks of vacation plus 2.5 days a month for doing things like going to the bank, doctor, etc. Many of our french friends reported working late hours just to be present and look like they were working hard, even if they had no work. They never wanted to leave before the boss. This is in an office environment, not sure how it is for unskilled jobs like cashiers. Speaking of, why aren't cashier in US grocery stores allowed to sit?

[CitrusFruit]

My biggest complaint is that we're keeping track of work hours at all.  Shouldn't we be more concerned with results and less concerned with hours?  As a manager, if you give me a choice between two employees - one who can perform a task in 2 hours and one who takes 8 hours - I'm taking the guy who can do it in 2 hours every time.  If he chooses to go home after his 2 hours of work, then who gives a damn?  The task has still been completed.  The really crazy thing is that the guy who finishes in 2 hours and goes home is viewed as a slacker while the slow guy is viewed as hard-working.

This is a very naïve mindset, to be frank. Most places seem to load up every worker so much, that even Two Hour Timmy has 10 hours a day of stuff to do Even if he got more done than anyone else, a bunch of stuff still ISN'T done, and it isn't defensible to go home after two hours in that situation.

So, Timmy with four hundred percent effectiveness has 10 hours of work to do a day. The normal worker has 40 hours of work to do a day.
Most places are then obviously understaffed, and in reality need five times their current number of workers.
Places who consistently understaff are naïve.

[AZDude]

Yeah, someone who claims most places have some sort of never ending work and that leaving after getting all your stuff done is irresponsible is either some kind of slow-working efficiency killer with inflated ego or has an extremely shitty grasp of basic management concepts.

[Paul der Krake]

Jurisdictions with the lowest hours always conveniently leave white collar jobs out of it.

Right now I clock in at 35 hours of work + 1 hour lunch (spent reading), unless the situation demands extra hours. So far nobody has complained.

[fattest_foot]

My biggest complaint is that we're keeping track of work hours at all.  Shouldn't we be more concerned with results and less concerned with hours?  As a manager, if you give me a choice between two employees - one who can perform a task in 2 hours and one who takes 8 hours - I'm taking the guy who can do it in 2 hours every time.  If he chooses to go home after his 2 hours of work, then who gives a damn?  The task has still been completed.  The really crazy thing is that the guy who finishes in 2 hours and goes home is viewed as a slacker while the slow guy is viewed as hard-working.

Reminds me of this thread: http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/the-art-of-not-working-at-work/

Personally, I'm one of those people who seems to be able to accomplish all of my work in 1-2 hours at the most. Then I hear my coworkers talking about how they're just so overloaded and would never be able to complete everything without OT. It baffles me, because our workload is publicized (for tracking purposes). I know exactly what everyone else is working on, and generally my 1-2 hours are actually more productive than their 8. It makes me wonder if they're all just screwing around all day too, but hamming it up so it doesn't sound like they're lazy.

So I end up spending 7 hours a day surfing the internet. I feel like it's a giant waste of my time. That's usually the part where someone says, "Ask for more work!" Uh, why? I'm not going to get some magical promotion for overloading myself (and in reality, I'm already potentially in line for a promotion; during my reviews I get glowing recommendations which further confuses me because of how little effort I'm putting forth).

I'll just reiterate the other comments above at this point. The 40 hour workweek has pushed me to pursue FIRE more aggressively. I can't fathom spending another 25-30 years doing this.

[aschmidt2930]

I think 40 hours is a pretty reasonable amount, but much more than that and I start to agree with you.  The reality is most professionals are putting in quite a bit more than that.

[forward]

Yeah, someone who claims most places have some sort of never ending work and that leaving after getting all your stuff done is irresponsible is either some kind of slow-working efficiency killer with inflated ego or has an extremely shitty grasp of basic management concepts.

Speaking only for my place of work as an organization: this=slow working efficiency killer
this=inflated ego= times 10
and this = shitty grasp of basic management skills

I tell all of my direct reports - you know what needs to be done with your work better than anyone else, you know how to get it done, if you need help ask, if theres a problem, then we'll talk...you can make your schedule within reason around those parameters.

[ncornilsen]

My biggest complaint is that we're keeping track of work hours at all.  Shouldn't we be more concerned with results and less concerned with hours?  As a manager, if you give me a choice between two employees - one who can perform a task in 2 hours and one who takes 8 hours - I'm taking the guy who can do it in 2 hours every time.  If he chooses to go home after his 2 hours of work, then who gives a damn?  The task has still been completed.  The really crazy thing is that the guy who finishes in 2 hours and goes home is viewed as a slacker while the slow guy is viewed as hard-working.

This is a very naïve mindset, to be frank. Most places seem to load up every worker so much, that even Two Hour Timmy has 10 hours a day of stuff to do Even if he got more done than anyone else, a bunch of stuff still ISN'T done, and it isn't defensible to go home after two hours in that situation.

So, Timmy with four hundred percent effectiveness has 10 hours of work to do a day. The normal worker has 40 hours of work to do a day.
Most places are then obviously understaffed, and in reality need five times their current number of workers.
Places who consistently understaff are naïve.

I'm not in "management," in that nobody reports directly to me. But I do manage a lot of projects. I have a pipeline of projects, prioritized by how much they save, how critical the equipment is, and random bullshit that I don't always agree with, but it is what it is. If I get everything done (Ie, waiting for quotes, drawings, etc) for project #1 in two hours, and go home, I'd be fired in a week. To keep my job, I'm expected  grab items from project #2, work it 'till I'm waiting for responses, quotes, etc, then move to project 3. I juggle anywhere from 5 to 10 projects at a given time. When one wraps up, there's always another waiting. In that case, I don't call that understaffed, and I can never finish enough stuff to be "done" in two hours. 

If your job entails "Make x calls today" "Assemble y widgets today" then fine, knock it out in 4 hours and go home. But that isn't everyones job, and I wouldn't say I'm an efficiency killer or not understanding of management concepts. I can't make out what Forward is trying to say... can you clarify what you mean?

[fb132]

I enjoy my job, so 40 hours to me goes by like a breeze, but I am still working on FI just incase I change my mind down the road.

[Trimatty471]

I work a desk job, so I'm never tired when I get home (maybe mentally on an especially demanding day), so I still have plenty of energy to cook dinner for the family, give the boy a bath and play with matchbox cars before he goes to bed. From there I can catch up on some chores and grab a little bit of TV/cuddle time with the lady right before bed.

I really have a great life. 8-5 has been a huge boon to my peace of mind and work-life balance.

Maybe it is my hour long commute each way (spent reading or sleeping) or my bonkered sleep schedule and my getting older (25 now, so not that old). but I find that I have way less energy at the end of the day working the desk job than I do when I spend the day doing yard work, or golfing, or playing hockey.  Object in motion and all that.

a desk job is more draining or it could be the case that after 6 hours, work gets pretty idle.

[steveo]

I'm a project manager and everyone on my team including myself have been working at least 50 hours per week every week for the last couple of months. I hate it but we have all adapted to it. One guy has worked 24 hours twice - seriously all the through the night and then come to work the next day. I have to manage him to take some time off.

I'm not fine with this however everyone seems to be enjoying it.

[ender]

A lot of people work more than 40 hours a week because they haven't learned to push back appropriately, flat out say "no," or care far too much about what other people might think.

[CitrusFruit]

My biggest complaint is that we're keeping track of work hours at all.  Shouldn't we be more concerned with results and less concerned with hours?  As a manager, if you give me a choice between two employees - one who can perform a task in 2 hours and one who takes 8 hours - I'm taking the guy who can do it in 2 hours every time.  If he chooses to go home after his 2 hours of work, then who gives a damn?  The task has still been completed.  The really crazy thing is that the guy who finishes in 2 hours and goes home is viewed as a slacker while the slow guy is viewed as hard-working.

This is a very naïve mindset, to be frank. Most places seem to load up every worker so much, that even Two Hour Timmy has 10 hours a day of stuff to do Even if he got more done than anyone else, a bunch of stuff still ISN'T done, and it isn't defensible to go home after two hours in that situation.

So, Timmy with four hundred percent effectiveness has 10 hours of work to do a day. The normal worker has 40 hours of work to do a day.
Most places are then obviously understaffed, and in reality need five times their current number of workers.
Places who consistently understaff are naïve.

I'm not in "management," in that nobody reports directly to me. But I do manage a lot of projects. I have a pipeline of projects, prioritized by how much they save, how critical the equipment is, and random bullshit that I don't always agree with, but it is what it is. If I get everything done (Ie, waiting for quotes, drawings, etc) for project #1 in two hours, and go home, I'd be fired in a week. To keep my job, I'm expected  grab items from project #2, work it 'till I'm waiting for responses, quotes, etc, then move to project 3. I juggle anywhere from 5 to 10 projects at a given time. When one wraps up, there's always another waiting. In that case, I don't call that understaffed, and I can never finish enough stuff to be "done" in two hours. 

I would not call the described situation necessarily understaffed either. Filling X hours with X hours worth of work seems (barely) acceptably staffed.

However, your argument seems be: Your work is nuanced and cannot be completed in two hours. Thus leaving after an arbitrary time period would be irresponsible, because your job is to juggle N projects.

Which is in agreement with Schaefer's argument that doing your work ought to be more important than the time it takes.

[Bearded Man]

I agree that the 40 hour work week is unrealistic. With prep time (showering, getting dressed, etc.), drive time, etc. you are gone from home nearly half the day. Assuming you sleep 8 hours you barely have free time; you still have to cook, clean, etc.

[alsoknownasDean]

I'm fine with it, provided there's some flexibility.

My normal working hours are 38 hours a week. There's periods throughout the year where I need to work longer. This I'm OK with if I can take a longer lunch or go home early on Friday when it's quieter.