POLL: Should the government mandate facial protection in crowded places ?

[Cranky]

But businesses won’t say “wear a mask or go home” because they need the business and not the aggravation.

Mandating masks lets them say “it’s the law!”

I live in an area where everything is open now and mask wearing is spotty. I can’t count on it at any given time, so I am reluctant to go out and spend money.

[Jack0Life]

But businesses won’t say “wear a mask or go home” because they need the business and not the aggravation.

Mandating masks lets them say “it’s the law!”

I live in an area where everything is open now and mask wearing is spotty. I can’t count on it at any given time, so I am reluctant to go out and spend money.

Been reading up on the replies and I get a lot of people saying we should leave it to the business owners.
This post shares my exact feelings.
Business owners aren't doing it except for a few.
1) They don't want to lose the customers.
2) They don't want to deal with irate customers.
If we had to states mandating all stores should require customers to wear masks, it would become a non-issue.
I applaud Costco for being the first major retailer to mandate wearing one. Except for the one "I woke in America" guy, its been a non issue.

Here in Florida, we have had 2 consecutive days of record cases. Its not because of more testing. We have had FREE testing available for a while now. The rates are going up because we have too many ignorant people not concerning the welfare of others.
States like Florida need a scare like NY to change perception. I'd bet if you go to NY now you'll see most people wearing masks there.

[Slow2FIRE]

All of these mask refusers...so shamefully selfish.

I have an at risk person at home and find myself scrubbing groceries, hands and arms after every trip outside.  We could have just put on a fucking mask instead of being selfish little bitches, but no, I see you guys and know that my life will be saddled with all this additional work for no damn reason other than selfishness.

Is it really that hard?

Hell, if everyone continues to wear masks for the rest of the year, we probably won't even have much of a flu season, let alone a resurgence of COVID 19.

All of you mask refusers:  FUCK YOU

[SuperNintendo Chalmers]

All of these mask refusers...so shamefully selfish.

I have an at risk person at home and find myself scrubbing groceries, hands and arms after every trip outside.  We could have just put on a fucking mask instead of being selfish little bitches, but no, I see you guys and know that my life will be saddled with all this additional work for no damn reason other than selfishness.

Is it really that hard?

Hell, if everyone continues to wear masks for the rest of the year, we probably won't even have much of a flu season, let alone a resurgence of COVID 19.

All of you mask refusers:  FUCK YOU

As Daniel Day-Lewis said in Gangs of New York:  "A touch indelicate, but fair."

[Jack0Life]

All of these mask refusers...so shamefully selfish.

I have an at risk person at home and find myself scrubbing groceries, hands and arms after every trip outside.  We could have just put on a fucking mask instead of being selfish little bitches, but no, I see you guys and know that my life will be saddled with all this additional work for no damn reason other than selfishness.

Is it really that hard?

Hell, if everyone continues to wear masks for the rest of the year, we probably won't even have much of a flu season, let alone a resurgence of COVID 19.

All of you mask refusers:  FUCK YOU

This is exactly how I feel toward people NOT wearing masks inside establishments.
Its takes very little effort and it can save lives preventing 2nd, 3rd waves.
https://www.wesh.com/article/study-says-100-percent-face-mask-use-could-crush-second-third-covid-19-wave/32843976?fbclid=IwAR0Q4Bn9eKNWjgEDJ7wpGd5XbYResKRujy4Bw9bz6YLYwBO_xZQv1d21avs#

I mean, read around the internet, get educated about the effectiveness of wearing masks.
I'm really dumbfounded at how our leaders aren't doing more.
Here's a story of 2 hairstylists that had COVID19 but they wore masks and non of their 140 customers got it.
Wearing masks will help prevent infections greatly. Whats so hard to understand?
https://www.adn.com/nation-world/2020/06/12/two-infected-missouri-hairstylists-were-wearing-masks-none-of-their-140-customers-also-masked-contracted-coronavirus/?fbclid=IwAR0npH8seBCMLAdyiTOic6mZvvoth65oNd5TXmnUc6BOo63o6OUZ5Z0t87k

[LennStar]

Are you willing to wear a mask forever? If so why didn't you wear a mask for the 2018 flu season?
And if you’re not willing to wear a mask forever, why are you wearing one today?
Because the chances are 2,500-1 against you suffering any more than a few days in bed.

Yeah, the typical Republican stance: I don't have a lot to fear, so screw everyone else who has!

And that people don't wear masks even when they have flu is no excuse to not wear one too for an 10 times more dangerous virus.

It's starting to look like the US may be one of the last first world countries to fully open up again.

No, wonder, since it was by far the last.
The other countries have less new infections than the US has new death.

or there will be the biggest catastrophe in the last 100 years.

No, just the biggest drop in economic activity.
We can all go wonderfully without a Clown Car or cruise ships or daily eating out.

[happyuk]

I don't wear a mask for me. I wear a mask so I don't spread it and kill someone in case I'm pre-symptomatic and don't even know I'm a danger to the general public.

Really?  You have a one-way mask?

A mask that can let viruses IN that can infect you, but it doesn't let viruses OUT that can infect others?

Where can I buy one of those one-way masks?

Let's examine the vast majority of mask wearer's I encounter in the stores. The one's who run away from me (you've guessed by now I don't wear a mask).  It is obvious that they haven't read the mask warnings (that they offer very little protection) neither are they aware of the WHO report that says "there is no evidence that wearing a mask - of any type - protects non-sick persons."

They are wearing their masks because they are petrified of catching the virus.  It's painfully obvious, you can see the fear in their eyes and their body language.

So if wearing a mask won't protect you from getting infected, that means viruses can penetrate masks.  And if viruses can penetrate masks, they can enter the person wearing the mask, or they can exit the person wearing the mask and enter someone else.

So I don't see how you can say that "I wear a mask so I don't spread it and kill someone."  The mask is not protecting you, nor other people.

[OtherJen]

I don't wear a mask for me. I wear a mask so I don't spread it and kill someone in case I'm pre-symptomatic and don't even know I'm a danger to the general public.

Really?  You have a one-way mask?

A mask that can let viruses IN that can infect you, but it doesn't let viruses OUT that can infect others?

Where can I buy one of those one-way masks?

Let's examine the vast majority of mask wearer's I encounter in the stores. The one's who run away from me (you've guessed by now I don't wear a mask).  It is obvious that they haven't read the mask warnings (that they offer very little protection) neither are they aware of the WHO report that says "there is no evidence that wearing a mask - of any type - protects non-sick persons."

They are wearing their masks because they are petrified of catching the virus.  It's painfully obvious, you can see the fear in their eyes and their body language.

So if wearing a mask won't protect you from getting infected, that means viruses can penetrate masks.  And if viruses can penetrate masks, they can enter the person wearing the mask, or they can exit the person wearing the mask and enter someone else.

So I don't see how you can say that "I wear a mask so I don't spread it and kill someone."  The mask is not protecting you, nor other people.

The WHO no longer agrees with you. https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2020/06/who-updates-guidance-on-masks-heres-what-to-know-now/

In areas with community transmission, the WHO now advises that members of the general public aged 60 and older and those with underlying conditions should wear a medical mask in situations where physical distancing is not possible.

The general public should wear non-medical masks where there is widespread transmission and when physical distancing is difficult, such as on public transport, in shops or in other confined or crowded environments.

Do you live in an area with widespread transmission? Many of us in the USA do. Hence, we're losing patience with people who whine like toddlers about a relatively minor inconvenience, even if it means that other things (e.g., people's jobs, social services) could return to some semblance of normal.

[GuitarStv]

So if wearing a mask won't protect you from getting infected, that means viruses can penetrate masks.  And if viruses can penetrate masks, they can enter the person wearing the mask, or they can exit the person wearing the mask and enter someone else.

So I don't see how you can say that "I wear a mask so I don't spread it and kill someone."  The mask is not protecting you, nor other people.

Transmission of the virus is often facilitated through tiny droplets of water that exit peoples mouths when they talk, cough, sneeze, etc.  Wearing a mask traps most of these drops of water and prevents the virus from spreading as easily as it otherwise would.

Wearing a mask is protecting other people by preventing your drops of water from hitting them.  If an idiot without a mask spits a little while talking and hits your mask you'll still likely get infected (although my understanding is that even in this type of case chance of infection is slightly reduced).

[Jack0Life]

So if wearing a mask won't protect you from getting infected, that means viruses can penetrate masks.  And if viruses can penetrate masks, they can enter the person wearing the mask, or they can exit the person wearing the mask and enter someone else.

So I don't see how you can say that "I wear a mask so I don't spread it and kill someone."  The mask is not protecting you, nor other people.

Transmission of the virus is often facilitated through tiny droplets of water that exit peoples mouths when they talk, cough, sneeze, etc.  Wearing a mask traps most of these drops of water and prevents the virus from spreading as easily as it otherwise would.

Wearing a mask is protecting other people by preventing your drops of water from hitting them.  If an idiot without a mask spits a little while talking and hits your mask you'll still likely get infected (although my understanding is that even in this type of case chance of infection is slightly reduced).

This stance has been hammered down over and over again yet the uneducated still can't grasp the concept.
Its not about you, its protecting orders.
Sometimes its best to lay down the rules instead of leaving it to uneducated people making decisions for themselves.

[alex753]

This situation is absolutely ludicrous.  Mask mandating is 100% impractical and will not be enforceable over the longer term - plus it is extremely ineffective.

[Laserjet3051]

As a medical scientist working in the convergent disciplines of virology, microbiology, and pharmacology, what i find utterly amusing are the folks who berate others for uneducated conclusions about COVID, that reflect ignorance. Whereas in reality, they dont even realize that their own prosthelytizing also comes from an ignorant perspective. I cant actually blame them since public health directives and policies have been all over the place, often conflicting, and yes, sometimes medically/scientifically wrong.

[Cranky]

This situation is absolutely ludicrous.  Mask mandating is 100% impractical and will not be enforceable over the longer term - plus it is extremely ineffective.

Well, lets all wear masks in crowded public places for the next 6 months or so and see if it's effective or not. Again, wearing a mask in crowded public places is a very mild inconvenience.

The cost of doing so is low, and the consequences of not doing so may be very high. Let's do that experiment!

[MudPuppy]

As a medical scientist working in the convergent disciplines of virology, microbiology, and pharmacology, what i find utterly amusing are the folks who berate others for uneducated conclusions about COVID, that reflect ignorance. Whereas in reality, they dont even realize that their own prosthelytizing also comes from an ignorant perspective. I cant actually blame them since public health directives and policies have been all over the place, often conflicting, and yes, sometimes medically/scientifically wrong.

Care to share your perspective?

[alex753]

This situation is absolutely ludicrous.  Mask mandating is 100% impractical and will not be enforceable over the longer term - plus it is extremely ineffective.

Well, lets all wear masks in crowded public places for the next 6 months or so and see if it's effective or not. Again, wearing a mask in crowded public places is a very mild inconvenience.

The cost of doing so is low, and the consequences of not doing so may be very high. Let's do that experiment!

It's impractical.  The difficulty with said experiment is that we cannot have two independent experiments.  A six month period in which one masks are mandated and one they are not.  What if wearing masks counter intuitively increases virus exposure? 

Have to keep an open mind for all outcomes when an "experiment" is performed.  So rendered a futile experiment.

Friends, this is an unfortunate situation where culture has blinded reality.

[alex753]

As a medical scientist working in the convergent disciplines of virology, microbiology, and pharmacology, what i find utterly amusing are the folks who berate others for uneducated conclusions about COVID, that reflect ignorance. Whereas in reality, they dont even realize that their own prosthelytizing also comes from an ignorant perspective. I cant actually blame them since public health directives and policies have been all over the place, often conflicting, and yes, sometimes medically/scientifically wrong.

Care to share your perspective?

+1

[alex753]

So if wearing a mask won't protect you from getting infected, that means viruses can penetrate masks.  And if viruses can penetrate masks, they can enter the person wearing the mask, or they can exit the person wearing the mask and enter someone else.

So I don't see how you can say that "I wear a mask so I don't spread it and kill someone."  The mask is not protecting you, nor other people.

If an idiot without a mask...

Sigh.  This controversy is causing otherwise intelligent and cooperative people to ad hominem and even fight in public.  Should mask opinions warranted or not cause civil unrest?

[Eowyn_MI]

This situation is absolutely ludicrous.  Mask mandating is 100% impractical and will not be enforceable over the longer term - plus it is extremely ineffective.

Well, lets all wear masks in crowded public places for the next 6 months or so and see if it's effective or not. Again, wearing a mask in crowded public places is a very mild inconvenience.

The cost of doing so is low, and the consequences of not doing so may be very high. Let's do that experiment!

I agree with alex753.  A government mandate for facial protection is fraught with all sorts of problems.  Fair and equal enforcement across the board is one of them.  Given the current feelings towards the police in the USA, I wouldn't want to put them in the difficult position of having to enforce such a highly controversial law.

Everyone says that wearing masks is a minor inconvenience.  I disagree.  My mother (65 y/o, very healthy) was wearing a mask for one hour to attend a church service.  She said that she had to remove the mask at one point because she was getting dizzy and seeing double. 

Wearing masks is a major inconvenience.  I am always conscious of my breathing with a mask on and deliberately try to pull in and expel more air from my lungs so that I get enough oxygen.  However, I wear a mask when grocery shopping indoors because I support the right of an individual business to require the use of one.  I do not support the government trying to mandate masks for everyone.  I do not wear a mask in parking lots or when going for a walk outside.

[alex753]

This situation is absolutely ludicrous.  Mask mandating is 100% impractical and will not be enforceable over the longer term - plus it is extremely ineffective.

Well, lets all wear masks in crowded public places for the next 6 months or so and see if it's effective or not. Again, wearing a mask in crowded public places is a very mild inconvenience.

The cost of doing so is low, and the consequences of not doing so may be very high. Let's do that experiment!

I agree with alex753.  A government mandate for facial protection is fraught with all sorts of problems.  Fair and equal enforcement across the board is one of them.  Given the current feelings towards the police in the USA, I wouldn't want to put them in the difficult position of having to enforce such a highly controversial law.

Everyone says that wearing masks is a minor inconvenience.  I disagree.  My mother (65 y/o, very healthy) was wearing a mask for one hour to attend a church service.  She said that she had to remove the mask at one point because she was getting dizzy and seeing double. 

Wearing masks is a major inconvenience.  I am always conscious of my breathing with a mask on and deliberately try to pull in and expel more air from my lungs so that I get enough oxygen.  However, I wear a mask when grocery shopping indoors because I support the right of an individual business to require the use of one.  I do not support the government trying to mandate masks for everyone.  I do not wear a mask in parking lots or when going for a walk outside.

Thank you Eowynd.  Excellent points. I would also like to point out that our opinion is not coming from a selfish or uncaring perspective as is believed by proponents of wearing masks.  We are not for misfortune but sometimes being a pragmatist is tough! 

[mrs sideways]

What if wearing masks counter intuitively increases virus exposure?

If that were the case, Japan would be totally overwhelmed with COVID-19 right now. Instead they have far, FAR fewer cases than we do.

[alex753]

What if wearing masks counter intuitively increases virus exposure?

If that were the case, Japan would be totally overwhelmed with COVID-19 right now. Instead they have far, FAR fewer cases than we do.

Invalid conclusion.  We cannot precisely compare the evolution of Japanese covid and United States covid and draw significant conclusions.  Two completely different physical and cultural societies.

[Cranky]

I think you get used to wearing a mask. I am also 65yo, and have not keeled over from wearing a mask while taking a walk or in the store, and the longer I wear one the less I notice it.

My dd works in a hospital lab and they are now required to wear masks all day at work. She says it was annoying at first and now it isn’t.

We don’t actually have to do the experiment because there are lots of people doing it for us.

So what other things should the government not mandate because they are hard to enforce?

[bigblock440]

So what other things should the government not mandate because they are hard to enforce?

Pre-marital coitus? 

[Eowyn_MI]

I think you get used to wearing a mask. I am also 65yo, and have not keeled over from wearing a mask while taking a walk or in the store, and the longer I wear one the less I notice it.

My dd works in a hospital lab and they are now required to wear masks all day at work. She says it was annoying at first and now it isn’t.

We don’t actually have to do the experiment because there are lots of people doing it for us.

So what other things should the government not mandate because they are hard to enforce?

The government should not mandate stay at home/lockdown orders unless they have a plan to make it fair and equitable for all people across every demographic.  (Hint: I do not think this is possible to do in America.)

And if they do mandate a lockdown, they still should not send the police to arrest a man who is playing in the park with his wife and daughter.  They absolutely should not arrest more black people than white people like they did in NYC. 

The lockdown rules were ill-conceived and poorly managed.  I would like to believe that in the beginning the government had their citizen's best interests at heart, but given the way it's played out, I'm not so sure anymore.

[totoro]

I don't wear a mask for me. I wear a mask so I don't spread it and kill someone in case I'm pre-symptomatic and don't even know I'm a danger to the general public.

Really?  You have a one-way mask?

A mask that can let viruses IN that can infect you, but it doesn't let viruses OUT that can infect others?

Where can I buy one of those one-way masks?

Let's examine the vast majority of mask wearer's I encounter in the stores. The one's who run away from me (you've guessed by now I don't wear a mask).  It is obvious that they haven't read the mask warnings (that they offer very little protection) neither are they aware of the WHO report that says "there is no evidence that wearing a mask - of any type - protects non-sick persons."

They are wearing their masks because they are petrified of catching the virus.  It's painfully obvious, you can see the fear in their eyes and their body language.

So if wearing a mask won't protect you from getting infected, that means viruses can penetrate masks.  And if viruses can penetrate masks, they can enter the person wearing the mask, or they can exit the person wearing the mask and enter someone else.

So I don't see how you can say that "I wear a mask so I don't spread it and kill someone."  The mask is not protecting you, nor other people.

One thing that should be put to rest is whether wearing a mask protects others.  It absolutely does - scientific fact.  If you want to protect yourself better use a face shield and glasses.  WHO researchers just released the study of all studies (literally) which analyzed 172 research papers on the matter (assessing for credibility and reliability before assigning weight) and changed their position as a result stating that community mask wearing is effective.  If you don't want to wear a mask that is a different story, but please stop spreading misinformation.   https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)31142-9/fulltext#%20

[Jack0Life]

This situation is absolutely ludicrous.  Mask mandating is 100% impractical and will not be enforceable over the longer term - plus it is extremely ineffective.

Well, lets all wear masks in crowded public places for the next 6 months or so and see if it's effective or not. Again, wearing a mask in crowded public places is a very mild inconvenience.

The cost of doing so is low, and the consequences of not doing so may be very high. Let's do that experiment!

I agree with alex753.  A government mandate for facial protection is fraught with all sorts of problems.  Fair and equal enforcement across the board is one of them.  Given the current feelings towards the police in the USA, I wouldn't want to put them in the difficult position of having to enforce such a highly controversial law.

Everyone says that wearing masks is a minor inconvenience.  I disagree.  My mother (65 y/o, very healthy) was wearing a mask for one hour to attend a church service.  She said that she had to remove the mask at one point because she was getting dizzy and seeing double. 

Wearing masks is a major inconvenience.  I am always conscious of my breathing with a mask on and deliberately try to pull in and expel more air from my lungs so that I get enough oxygen.  However, I wear a mask when grocery shopping indoors because I support the right of an individual business to require the use of one.  I do not support the government trying to mandate masks for everyone. I do not wear a mask in parking lots or when going for a walk outside.

Talking about missing the point. Nobody is talking about having to wear masks outiside. The entire premise is based on having to wear one when you can't keep social distancing.

[LiveLean]

I live in Florida but have spent much of the past six weeks in Virginia. I'm self-employed and have worked from home for 20 years. At one point in March/April I went stand-up paddleboarding 40 days in a row. (It's been 80-plus degrees here in FL since mid-March).

I've worn a mask maybe 6-8 times since the pandemic started and that includes the four times since May 1 when Costco required it as a national policy. The VA governor made masks mandatory June 1, but it wasn't especially enforced or followed.

What is a crowded place? I've been to Lowe's and Home Depot a half dozen times. They weren't particularly crowded. I didn't wear a mask, nor did many other customers. Until VA made it mandatory June 1, half the Home Depot employees weren't wearing them.

I would go to a concert, church or pro sporting event tonight if they were held. I would wear a mask. But for the rest of my daily life, I'm just not in crowded places.

[MudPuppy]

@LiveLean i think that’s roughly what those in favor of a mask are saying. If you’re in an uncrowded place, no mask needed. If you’re in a place where it is reasonable to belief you will not be able to easily maintain distance, mask required.

[Fishindude]

Not just no, but .... Hell No !
This B.S. has gotten way out of hand.   I still don't know anyone that has gotten this illness, and I don't know anybody that personally knows anyone that has gotten this illness.
Also, from everything you read it's not much more dangerous than the flu.

Let people make their own judgement on keep the government from passing and wide sweeping regs.   What's needed in one area can be widely different from another.   In more rural, less populated areas, the risk is quite low, while inner city areas packed tight with people are much higher risk.

If you're scared of it, stay home.    If you're a business owner and scared of it, set your own rules for your establishment.   If the local transit authority thinks its a concern, they can make the decision for the things under their control, etc., etc.   

And don't forget that this would be very difficult to effectively enforce.   What are you going to do, lock up or shoot everyone spotted without a mask?

[dogboyslim]

I voted no.  The only way to enforce such a ban is by increasing the police presence.  It also gives police yet another tool to randomly stop someone to try to find out if something else is going on.  This practice reinforces the police state, and further enables the police to act egregiously but have cover of "but they weren't wearing a mask."

No thanks.

[teen persuasion]

Holy mother of God. Of course. You mean your slack jawed governor has not done so yet? Can you impeach him for incompetence?'

+1

Even if it can't or isn't being enforced, at least businesses (and more importantly, the lesser employees) can point to that requirement to short-circuit the wrath of those who don't want to follow the rules for the sake of everyone else.  I work in a public library; the entire system was dithering about when to reopen if masks weren't required.  As soon as the governor said they were required, and individual businesses could refuse entry to those w/o masks, they began planning reopening dates.  If we hadn't had that power, the system would have remained fully closed months longer, to better protect our patrons.

Locally, everyone wears a mask in any business we've visited.  There are big signs out front with policy - MASKS REQUIRED.

[Indexer]

But businesses won’t say “wear a mask or go home” because they need the business and not the aggravation.

Mandating masks lets them say “it’s the law!”

I live in an area where everything is open now and mask wearing is spotty. I can’t count on it at any given time, so I am reluctant to go out and spend money.

That goes both ways. There are people who don't want to be inconvenienced to wear a mask, and businesses don't want to lose them as customers. Yes, that is true. However, there are also people who don't want to be around people without masks who will likely avoid businesses if everyone isn't wearing a mask.

Based on your post, you fit in the second category. A business could easily win you, and many others, over by being the only business in their field that requires masks.

Example: If Chic fil A required masks and McDonalds, Taco Bell, Wendy's, etc. didn't, the people who really care about masks will all go to Chic fil A. The people who demand masks might be a minority compared to people who don't want to wear them, but if one business captures that entire minority they will come out ahead.

[jrhampt]

Not just no, but .... Hell No !
This B.S. has gotten way out of hand.   I still don't know anyone that has gotten this illness, and I don't know anybody that personally knows anyone that has gotten this illness.

How nice for you.  I do.

Fortunately there's a mandate to wear masks inside businesses here, and >99% of people seem to be following it.  Probably why our curve has gone way down.

[Knapptyme]

How is this unlike seat belts? Did I miss someone already mentioning that?

It's a mild inconvenience to wear one. Sometimes it's uncomfortable. Sometimes, if the seat belt is on, it's difficult to get something out of my pocket. Ah, to hell with it, what are the chances of a car accident? What are the chances of a car accident where I'll need a seat belt to save me?

Should the government (read local authorities) repeal seat belt laws? Are those laws enforced well anyway? Has it become an ingrained habit for most of us to endure this inconvenience in the rare event we'll need/want it?

Initially, I voted yes. As I read some of the responses, I wavered on the government's role in such minutiae of our lives.

Ultimately, it is a sign of solidarity. I'm a safe driver for the most part, but it would be a damn shame if my kids repeatedly saw me "breaking the law" and it ended up costing them their dad's life just because of a low probability accident. So I wear my seat belt--not because I need it. And I will wear a mask in public indoor settings until it is clear and obvious that it no longer is necessary. If that means I wear a mask to the grocery store for the rest of my life, so be it. I've already given it to those horrid, detestable, freedom sucking seat belts.

[alex753]

Not just no, but .... Hell No !
This B.S. has gotten way out of hand.   I still don't know anyone that has gotten this illness, and I don't know anybody that personally knows anyone that has gotten this illness.
Also, from everything you read it's not much more dangerous than the flu.

Let people make their own judgement on keep the government from passing and wide sweeping regs.   What's needed in one area can be widely different from another.   In more rural, less populated areas, the risk is quite low, while inner city areas packed tight with people are much higher risk.

If you're scared of it, stay home.    If you're a business owner and scared of it, set your own rules for your establishment.   If the local transit authority thinks its a concern, they can make the decision for the things under their control, etc., etc.   

And don't forget that this would be very difficult to effectively enforce.   What are you going to do, lock up or shoot everyone spotted without a mask?

Right.  And I was just at my local supermarket where masks were being worn all kinds of janky ways.  Only mouth, only on chin, employees doing all sorts of adjusting their masks while handling packages, running into plexiglass plastic installed between registers. 

Look at your local supermarket where it's impossible to effectively socially distance even though we've forced the owners to spend money on intercom announcements about, gasp, social distancing, one way arrows in walkways (are you kidding me?), etc.

Why don't we just pass laws prohibiting social consumerism.  No grocery stores, restaurants, retails spaces, Wake.... Up!

Can you imagine strictly enforcing this and jailing people who don't have a mask or don't wear it properly?  Insanity.

This is just madness people, sorry.

[alex753]

I voted no.  The only way to enforce such a ban is by increasing the police presence.  It also gives police yet another tool to randomly stop someone to try to find out if something else is going on.  This practice reinforces the police state, and further enables the police to act egregiously but have cover of "but they weren't wearing a mask."

No thanks.

Right.  And don't forget the new social distancing software just being installed on IOS and Android devices.  Completely Orwellian.  And 100% wasteful.  There is no way our smartphones and the new government Contract Tracers will effectively enforce people to isolate.  The new government "Contract Tracer" jobs is an utter waste of time and money as well as a blatant personal privacy intrusion. That's even if this virus, (or future viruses, gasp!) would have ended up devastating the human population.

You cannot effectively contact trace a respiratory and contact virus anyway!

[OtherJen]

Not just no, but .... Hell No !
This B.S. has gotten way out of hand.   I still don't know anyone that has gotten this illness, and I don't know anybody that personally knows anyone that has gotten this illness.

How nice for you.  I do.

Fortunately there's a mandate to wear masks inside businesses here, and >99% of people seem to be following it.  Probably why our curve has gone way down.

Yeah, I also know people who've gotten it. I knew someone who died of it. The last 3 months were not pleasant. It was very sobering to watch the big convention center downtown be turned into a FEMA hospital, to read the pages of COVID-19 obituaries in the local papers (and the informal obituaries on social media of friends and family members who lost loved ones), and to hear the stories from relatives and friends who worked at local hospitals when they hit capacity and started sending patients to other facilities.

How lucky to have been spared those experiences.

I have changed my original opinion in that I don't think this should be government-mandated, given the obvious problems with law enforcement, but I'm all for public pressure (shaming, refusal of business, whatever) on this issue. I honestly don't care if someone thinks that I'm wearing a mask out of fear. They're right. I'm a trained biomedical scientist who reads medical literature as a career. I've read plenty on COVID-19. It probably won't kill you, but there seems to be a decent risk of significant and potentially debilitating medical complications beyond the acute disease phase, and we don't know how long those will last or who is more susceptible. I don't want to catch it. I already have a life-long immunological disorder that was triggered by H1N1 influenza. I don't want my husband, who works in retail, to catch it. I'll wear a mask to reduce my risk until there's a vaccine, thanks. I hope everyone else will wear masks when in indoor public places to protect people like my husband.

[alex753]

Not just no, but .... Hell No !
This B.S. has gotten way out of hand.   I still don't know anyone that has gotten this illness, and I don't know anybody that personally knows anyone that has gotten this illness.

How nice for you.  I do.

Fortunately there's a mandate to wear masks inside businesses here, and >99% of people seem to be following it.  Probably why our curve has gone way down.

Yeah, I also know people who've gotten it. I knew someone who died of it. The last 3 months were not pleasant. It was very sobering to watch the big convention center downtown be turned into a FEMA hospital, to read the pages of COVID-19 obituaries in the local papers (and the informal obituaries on social media of friends and family members who lost loved ones), and to hear the stories from relatives and friends who worked at local hospitals when they hit capacity and started sending patients to other facilities.

How lucky to have been spared those experiences.

I have changed my original opinion in that I don't think this should be government-mandated, given the obvious problems with law enforcement, but I'm all for public pressure (shaming, refusal of business, whatever) on this issue. I honestly don't care if someone thinks that I'm wearing a mask out of fear. They're right. I'm a trained biomedical scientist who reads medical literature as a career. I've read plenty on COVID-19. It probably won't kill you, but there seems to be a decent risk of significant and potentially debilitating medical complications beyond the acute disease phase, and we don't know how long those will last or who is more susceptible. I don't want to catch it. I already have a life-long immunological disorder that was triggered by H1N1 influenza. I don't want my husband, who works in retail, to catch it. I'll wear a mask to reduce my risk until there's a vaccine, thanks. I hope everyone else will wear masks when in indoor public places to protect people like my husband.

You've come a long way since the other thread about "why aren't more Americans wearing masks."  You are correct.  This is impossible to ethically or practically force on a human population, but the bureaucrats are trying.  And now the bureaucrats are in you pocket if you own IOs or Android device.  So I was correct about slippery slope. 

It only took a few months for people you do not know to get into your pocket in a manner that 100% is not practical to "control" said virus or future respiratory or contact viruses. Sigh.

[OtherJen]

Not just no, but .... Hell No !
This B.S. has gotten way out of hand.   I still don't know anyone that has gotten this illness, and I don't know anybody that personally knows anyone that has gotten this illness.

How nice for you.  I do.

Fortunately there's a mandate to wear masks inside businesses here, and >99% of people seem to be following it.  Probably why our curve has gone way down.

Yeah, I also know people who've gotten it. I knew someone who died of it. The last 3 months were not pleasant. It was very sobering to watch the big convention center downtown be turned into a FEMA hospital, to read the pages of COVID-19 obituaries in the local papers (and the informal obituaries on social media of friends and family members who lost loved ones), and to hear the stories from relatives and friends who worked at local hospitals when they hit capacity and started sending patients to other facilities.

How lucky to have been spared those experiences.

I have changed my original opinion in that I don't think this should be government-mandated, given the obvious problems with law enforcement, but I'm all for public pressure (shaming, refusal of business, whatever) on this issue. I honestly don't care if someone thinks that I'm wearing a mask out of fear. They're right. I'm a trained biomedical scientist who reads medical literature as a career. I've read plenty on COVID-19. It probably won't kill you, but there seems to be a decent risk of significant and potentially debilitating medical complications beyond the acute disease phase, and we don't know how long those will last or who is more susceptible. I don't want to catch it. I already have a life-long immunological disorder that was triggered by H1N1 influenza. I don't want my husband, who works in retail, to catch it. I'll wear a mask to reduce my risk until there's a vaccine, thanks. I hope everyone else will wear masks when in indoor public places to protect people like my husband.

You've come a long way since the other thread about "why aren't more Americans wearing masks."  You are correct.  This is impossible to ethically or practically force on a human population, but the bureaucrats are trying.  And now the bureaucrats are in you pocket if you own IOs or Android device.  So I was correct about slippery slope. 

It only took a few months for people you do not know to get into your pocket in a manner that 100% is not practical to "control" said virus or future respiratory or contact viruses. Sigh.

I haven't changed my mindset on the need for masks at all. If anything, I think there's a stronger argument in favor of masks, and I think businesses should take a hard line on requiring them. The change in opinion is solely a reflection of my concerns regarding law enforcement.

[Jack0Life]

Its really hard to argue against dense people.
Now the argument turned into "well the government can't police everyone to wear a mask".
Its fucking simple. Start with requiring all businesses to require a mask when entering the premise. If they don't abide by the rules, fine them or shut the down. Its not fucking rocket scientist.
Last I remembered, Costco imposed the mask requirement and I  don't see riots at Costco.
The government came down with the "no smoking" rule a long long time ago and I don't see riots against that either.
It has to start somewhere. If you walk into a store and 95% of the people are wearing masks, the ones that doesn't would feel pressured into wearing one.
When you walk into a store and 50% aren't wearing facial protection, this pandemic is not going away.
To get back to normal life, the inconvenience of wareing masks is too much too bear ??

[alex753]

Its really hard to argue against dense people.
Now the argument turned into "well the government can't police everyone to wear a mask".
Its fucking simple. Start with requiring all businesses to require a mask when entering the premise. If they don't abide by the rules, fine them or shut the down. Its not fucking rocket scientist.
Last I remembered, Costco imposed the mask requirement and I  don't see riots at Costco.
The government came down with the "no smoking" rule a long long time ago and I don't see riots against that either.
It has to start somewhere. If you walk into a store and 95% of the people are wearing masks, the ones that doesn't would feel pressured into wearing one.
When you walk into a store and 50% aren't wearing facial protection, this pandemic is not going away.
To get back to normal life, the inconvenience of wareing masks is too much too bear ??

Wearing masks to promote a sterile social environment is not practical.  As I stated before I just went to my local supermarket where people were wearing masks all kinds "ineffective" ways, over mouth only, nose only, on chin, not at all, masked employees adjusting them with their hands and then proceeding to touch the packages, etc... 

I'm not sure I've seen this yet but if, and that's a big if, we should change something in the future to "control" said virus or viruses certain to come we should have put all this time and money into changing the *physical structure and capacity* of the hospital system and not make sweeping highly ineffective policies such as the Contract Tracing jobs.

Utterly ridiculous. We should not plastic bubble human society, IMO... 

Just watch, we are slowly going to make it culturally inappropriate to engage in social consumerism; restaurants, grocery stores, brick and mortar retail establishments... 

[MudPuppy]

There’s difference in sterile and clean. Wearing a mask in crowded spaces is not putting society in a plastic bubbles.

[alex753]

There’s difference in sterile and clean. Wearing a mask in crowded spaces is not putting society in a plastic bubbles.

But now there are quasi plastic 6 foot bubbles being "encouraged", face shields, highly ineffective Plexiglas shields between employees and people, and I've mentioned a few times before now your smartphone has contact tracing software (100% impractical) using Bluetooth to monitor whether you might have been in contact with a current or future virus carrier...

I can't believe I just wrote that.  So if a government contact tracer sees you were in proximity, and MIGHT have a virus that like otherjen said PROBABLY won't kill you, you will be required to self isolate or "pay the consequences."

So tell me, if you partake and get the call or text message telling you to self isolate, are you going to comply?

Will people comply with this nonsense?  Can you imagine the utter impracticality of all this?

[Schaefer Light]

If one believes in herd immunity, then wouldn't one also believe that wearing masks is counter-productive and will only draw things out for a longer time than is necessary?

[GuitarStv]

It's hard for me to get excited about smart phone tracking of people . . . given that I don't own a cell.

[alex753]

If one believes in herd immunity, then wouldn't one also believe that wearing masks is counter-productive and will only draw things out for a longer time than is necessary?

Exactly!  And there are epidemiologists that believe that letting the virus naturally spread is a BETTER way than flattening the curve via isolation.

And as I mentioned before, if anything should change in the future it should be the *physical structure and capacity* of the hospital system, so that when these natural and largely unfatal viruses occur "the hospital system" can accommodate this type of, ummm, epidemic.

Would you rather the hospitals deal with people who are sick or politicians and bureaucrats making these ineffective and impractical policies.

Wake up people.  Build up the hospital system IF you believe that the existing structure would not have accommodated this without isolation. We can't isolate and flatten the curve when every new virus surfaces! 

It is supremely obvious that one way to fix capacity problems would be to re-think the physical capabilities of the hospitals, so that when people start getting sick they, umm, go to the hospital. Because the models predicted we could overrun healthcare capacity...

Has anyone seen a politician or bureaucrat bring up this obvious option? 

[MudPuppy]

Gerd immunity isn’t a sure think and even if it is, it doesn’t happen overnight. It takes a generation or more.

[js82]

If one believes in herd immunity, then wouldn't one also believe that wearing masks is counter-productive and will only draw things out for a longer time than is necessary?

Exactly!  And there are epidemiologists that believe that letting the virus naturally spread is a BETTER way than flattening the curve via isolation.

You are both flat-out wrong.

You have effective herd immunity(Number of cases trends toward zero) as R <1.  R is modified by a number of things - most prominently the fraction of the population that has already had the virus and is immune, *and* human behavior.  And these effects are multiplicative.

What this means is that you can get R to < 1 (and end the pandemic) with a lower number of terminal cases/deaths by lowering contagion through human behavior.

In the US, it's completely impractical to attempt to shut down every business for 6 months or a year to drive the case load to zero - but it *is* practical to continue wearing masks so that the endpoint of this pandemic has fewer cases/deaths.

Sustainable actions that lower transmission rates *WILL* lower the total number of fatalities.  And FFS, wearing a mask in indoor, public spaces is nothing more than a minor nuisance for the overwhelming majority of the population.

I haven't changed my mindset on the need for masks at all. If anything, I think there's a stronger argument in favor of masks, and I think businesses should take a hard line on requiring them. The change in opinion is solely a reflection of my concerns regarding law enforcement.

This is precisely how I feel about masks, as well.  If we enforce masks the way we enforce burnt-out tail lights or failing to come to a complete stop at a stop sign, there's going to be a whole lot of BS going on - but that doesn't negate the value of masks.

[alex753]

If one believes in herd immunity, then wouldn't one also believe that wearing masks is counter-productive and will only draw things out for a longer time than is necessary?

Exactly!  And there are epidemiologists that believe that letting the virus naturally spread is a BETTER way than flattening the curve via isolation.

You are both flat-out wrong.

You have effective herd immunity(Number of cases trends toward zero) as R <1.  R is modified by a number of things - most prominently the fraction of the population that has already had the virus and is immune, *and* human behavior.  And these effects are multiplicative.

What this means is that you can get R to < 1 (and end the pandemic) with a lower number of terminal cases/deaths by lowering contagion through human behavior.

In the US, it's completely impractical to attempt to shut down every business for 6 months or a year to drive the case load to zero - but it *is* practical to continue wearing masks so that the endpoint of this pandemic has fewer cases/deaths.

Sustainable actions that lower transmission rates *WILL* lower the total number of fatalities.  And FFS, wearing a mask in indoor, public spaces is nothing more than a minor nuisance for the overwhelming majority of the population.

I haven't changed my mindset on the need for masks at all. If anything, I think there's a stronger argument in favor of masks, and I think businesses should take a hard line on requiring them. The change in opinion is solely a reflection of my concerns regarding law enforcement.

This is precisely how I feel about masks, as well.  If we enforce masks the way we prosecute burnt-out tail lights or failing to come to a complete stop at a stop sign, there's going to be a whole lot of BS going on - but that doesn't negate the value of masks.

I am pointing out that educated epidemiologists disagree with you.  Whatever the case, social policy is inexact and futile, just like you point out.   Revamp the healthcare and hospital system to accommodate the POSSIBILITY of these virus "epidemics." 

Even if they are effective.... People are not wearing them properly, people who think they are wearing them properly probably are not, people touch their face more when they have them on, people put them on and take them off, use them for consecutive days, people are fighting in public about wearing masks...

Maybe, and that is a definite maybe, in a textbook training setting they could be effective.  But real life is dynamic and highly imperfect. 

[MudPuppy]

But why should we let perfect be the enemy of good?