MMM Hate

[Davnasty]

It started as a reader comment, but he fully endorsed by including it here.  It's the first of 3 ways to reduce road trip costs on this post:

https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/08/20/three-fuel-saving-hacks-for-long-roadtrips/

But of course, you're not really retired if you don't use A/C.  ;)

Tangential to this thread, I've been using the spray bottle technique for close to ten years in the second hottest location in the U.S. I initially intended to repair my AC, but after expending some effort trying to find the refrigerant leak (without success, indicating it was likely in the evaporator), and not wanting to replace my whole system nor pay more for repairs than the vehicle was worth, I decided I could live with it. The only time I'd say it is anything more than uncomfortable is in the blazing sun of midday summer. (I also grew up in central Florida driving cars without AC, and I will testify that the Sonoran Desert is worse.)

Nice. I viewed this one as going in the voluntary discomfort column more than the savings hacks, but if you're talking about avoiding costly repairs this could be real savings.

Unfortunatly I suspect little suggestions like this gave some readers an excuse to say "this guy is crazy, I should ignore all the other nonsense too".

[Pigeon]

It is, afterall, the blogsnark reddit, so one might expect snark.

I think they have some valid points, some of which seem pretty standard for personal finance sites.  The preponderance of posters are male STEM types, most with stereotypical engineering personalities.  The misogyny often runs deep.  Bogleheads amuses me because there are often posts that blast women for things like wanting engagement rings, with the same posters in strong support of men who want luxury watch collections or Teslas. 

[phildonnia]

...where he didn't pay for home insurance and said he was self-insured so I found that pretty stupid, who risks having to spend 100s of thousands to save about 1200/yr just to advertise staying under 25/yr? 

Insurance needs depend on your exposure and tolerance for risk, so you cannot say in the absolute that risking a large loss is not worth a certain premium.

In general, insurance never saves you money, and certainly doesn't make money. It is only for managing risk.  "Self-insured" does not mean that your house won't burn down and set you back hundreds of thousands of dollars.  It means that you can manage this risk more cheaply than through insurance.

Basically, if you have millions of dollars, then losing your house will not ruin you, so there's not as much value in the insurance.

[Boofinator]

The misogyny often runs deep.

No offense to anyone, but let's please not go there. Or, let's start a new thread that questions how deep misogyny runs in MMM and not derail this one.

[nereo]

No offense to anyone, but let's please not go there. Or, let's start a new thread that questions how deep misogyny runs in MMM and not derail this one.

Agreed.

I find it telling that a thread topic of "MMM Hate" comes up with the OP asking: Why do people go out of their way to remain ignorant, and discount what he says, by straight up twisting it to fit whatever biases they have? - and there's two kinds of responses.

The first seeks to explain why some people go out of their way to remain ignorant, discount what he saids and twist his posts to fit their own biases.

Another group joins in, as if to say: Great, a thread for us to Hate on MMM!

[Eric]

ETA: typos.

Not to pile on after the air quote debacle, but you just wrote that you "edited to add typos".  What kind of maniac adds typos?!  lol

[nereo]

ETA: typos.

Not to pile on after the air quote debacle, but you just wrote that you "edited to add typos".  What kind of maniac adds typos?!  lol

Is that what ETA means?  I always thought it meant: 'Edited To Address:'  but now Google tells me it means "the seventh star in a constellation. I'm more confused than ever!!

[Eric]

ETA: typos.

Not to pile on after the air quote debacle, but you just wrote that you "edited to add typos".  What kind of maniac adds typos?!  lol

Is that what ETA means?  I always thought it meant: 'Edited To Address:'  but now Google tells me it means "the seventh star in a constellation. I'm more confused than ever!!

I guess it could depend on what dictionary you're choosing to use.  Maybe we should wait for Fanta to chime in on the matter, since he's the resident expert now.  Hahaha

[Rosy]

^^^ ETA - estimated time of arrival is what I think of:). ^^^

[dragoncar]

ETA: typos.

Not to pile on after the air quote debacle, but you just wrote that you "edited to add typos".  What kind of maniac adds typos?!  lol

Is that what ETA means?  I always thought it meant: 'Edited To Address:'  but now Google tells me it means "the seventh star in a constellation. I'm more confused than ever!!

I guess it could depend on what dictionary you're choosing to use.  Maybe we should wait for Fanta to chime in on the matter, since he's the resident expert now.  Hahaha

Why start relying on dictionaries now?  You've got a great thing going ;)

The word "Fanta" also has a meaning.  So unless you are literally "a brand of fruit-flavored carbonated drinks created by The Coca-Cola Company and marketed globally," GTFO

[Telecaster]

^ The hate is real:  https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.reddit.com/r/blogsnark/comments/9iifjg/mr_money_mustache/#ampf=undefined.

I also changed careers: military to civilian to a pro sport to long sabbatical (is that even a career?) to FIRE. But I wasn't FI until hitting FIRE so didn't call myself retired. I think the FI part is why MMM considers himself retired rather than just changing careers no matter if he works or not. While I'm more on the IRP's side of this I understand where the MMM RE idea stems from.

Ha!  That was hilarious.   I've noticed there a few general categories of MMM hate:

1.  He's not really retired!  'nuff said on that one.

2.  The 4% rule is bogus!   

3.  MMM and FIRE only apply to people with good paying jobs!

4. I don't like his lifestyle choices, therefore I hate him!  A good example was the comments about how MMM drinks olive oil.   That killed several posters ability to read MMM.

5.  I'll never be able to retire, so I hate MMM!

Most of those comments seem to boil down to not understanding what MMM is saying combined with an inability to think for yourself.  Not everybody has the skills or inclination to build a studio on the backyard.  But saving, investing, not being a consumer suckah, and generally controlling your finances instead of your finances controlling you is pretty good lifestyle advice for anybody.   If you don't feel like biking, you can reject that part.  No need to get mad about it. 

[Eric]

I guess it could depend on what dictionary you're choosing to use.  Maybe we should wait for Fanta to chime in on the matter, since he's the resident expert now.  Hahaha

Why start relying on dictionaries now?  You've got a great thing going ;)

The word "Fanta" also has a meaning.  So unless you are literally "a brand of fruit-flavored carbonated drinks created by The Coca-Cola Company and marketed globally," GTFO

It made me laugh, fwiw

[bacchi]

Dragoncar,

"Fanta": Short, easy to remember, and delicious.  Doesn't really go deeper than that. 

If you're basically trying to shame me and suggest some alternative meaning, that wouldn't be too surprising.  Definitely shame the guy who doesn't worship everything Pete does.  Make me the other.  Suppose that's the playbook. Well done. 

You're the second person to encourage me to leave now (you and Dicey).  This forum really doesn't like it when I critique Dear Leader (Pete).   Love it or leave it man, yada yada.

I suppose I could suggest that your own handle (Dragoncar) has some unattractive meaning, but I won't do that. :)

https://www.complex.com/pop-culture/2016/04/dragons-sex-cars-reddit

Take a look at dragoncar's avatar. :)

I don't think dragoncar was trying to shame you, either; it was a joke (but I could be wrong).

[Boofinator]

^ The hate is real:  https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.reddit.com/r/blogsnark/comments/9iifjg/mr_money_mustache/#ampf=undefined.

I also changed careers: military to civilian to a pro sport to long sabbatical (is that even a career?) to FIRE. But I wasn't FI until hitting FIRE so didn't call myself retired. I think the FI part is why MMM considers himself retired rather than just changing careers no matter if he works or not. While I'm more on the IRP's side of this I understand where the MMM RE idea stems from.

Ha!  That was hilarious.   I've noticed there a few general categories of MMM hate:

1.  He's not really retired!  'nuff said on that one.

2.  The 4% rule is bogus!   

3.  MMM and FIRE only apply to people with good paying jobs!

4. I don't like his lifestyle choices, therefore I hate him!  A good example was the comments about how MMM drinks olive oil.   That killed several posters ability to read MMM.

5.  I'll never be able to retire, so I hate MMM!

Most of those comments seem to boil down to not understanding what MMM is saying combined with an inability to think for yourself.  Not everybody has the skills or inclination to build a studio on the backyard.  But saving, investing, not being a consumer suckah, and generally controlling your finances instead of your finances controlling you is pretty good lifestyle advice for anybody.   If you don't feel like biking, you can reject that part.  No need to get mad about it.

Thanks for taking the time to break it down. I'd add that these views seem to be expressed from a few different perspectives:

1. The ignorant.
2. The envious.
3. The apprehensive.
4. The consumer-sukka.

The last I find somewhat inspiring. They state that they don't have a problem with Mustachianism, but they feel we're all a bunch of frugalism sukkas not living in the present. Frankly, they have a point, as long as it isn't stated in a spiteful manner.

[dragoncar]

Dragoncar,

"Fanta": Short, easy to remember, and delicious.  Doesn't really go deeper than that. 

If you're basically trying to shame me and suggest some alternative meaning, that wouldn't be too surprising.  Definitely shame the guy who doesn't worship everything Pete does.  Make me the other.  Suppose that's the playbook. Well done. 

You're the second person to encourage me to leave now (you and Dicey).  This forum really doesn't like it when I critique Dear Leader (Pete).   Love it or leave it man, yada yada.

I suppose I could suggest that your own handle (Dragoncar) has some unattractive meaning, but I won't do that. :)

https://www.complex.com/pop-culture/2016/04/dragons-sex-cars-reddit

Take a look at dragoncar's avatar. :)

I don't think dragoncar was trying to shame you, either; it was a joke (but I could be wrong).

bacchi, at some point I must have chosen the "Don't show avatars" option.  Dragoncar's avatar (and name) makes sense now. 

Regardless, he insinuated I'm some kind of nazi (google "Fanta") and then told me to Get The Fuck Out.  Doesn't seem like much of a joke. 

I think I will get the fuck out.

FWIW, the GTFO part was a joke.  I'm sorry, it isn't my intent to scare anyone off, and I was not aware of the nazi meaning.... although you are the one who chose the name having a fanatical sense of linguistics.

I don't care if anyone worships MMM or not.  I do take issue with your staunch "words have meaning" approach that doesn't recognize that words have various meanings in different contexts.  It's not intellectually honest when you refuse to accept any meaning other than one particular dictionary entry you find, when it's clear in your own personal life you are much more flexible about the meanings of words.  For that, I do shame you.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SrDSqODtEFM

[Dicey]

Dragoncar,

"Fanta": Short, easy to remember, and delicious.  Doesn't really go deeper than that. 

If you're basically trying to shame me and suggest some alternative meaning, that wouldn't be too surprising.  Definitely shame the guy who doesn't worship everything Pete does.  Make me the other.  Suppose that's the playbook. Well done. 

You're the second person to encourage me to leave now (you and Dicey).  This forum really doesn't like it when I critique Dear Leader (Pete).   Love it or leave it man, yada yada.

I suppose I could suggest that your own handle (Dragoncar) has some unattractive meaning, but I won't do that. :)

https://www.complex.com/pop-culture/2016/04/dragons-sex-cars-reddit

Ha! Since words are so fluid, I'm not surprised you went there. If you think arguing your point in this particular place is a good way to spend your time, have at it. But in the words of Jim Croce...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQrTGE4wwwA

Side Note: I had never seen this version. Looka that fine mustache! RIP, Jim Croce.

[tooqk4u22]

Why not?

Personally, I don't think I would turn down free money regardless of how much I had. Especially after a lifetime of cultivating this idea in my brain that more money = more freedom, it's hard not to want more. And as petty as it is, I do like seeing big numbers when I log in to my accounts :)

On top of that, the 4% rule as stated by MMM does not guarantee 100% success. So even if his confidence in the 4% rule is exactly as he claims, more money still increase his chance of success.

As for the charity question, who knows? he may being giving lots to charity, he may plan to give it all in his will, he may have plans to start his own charitable organization, or he may do any other thing you can possibly think of with it. You seem to have a very narrow view of what might be going on in the life and mind of someone you've never met.

I agree, even if I am FIRE'd in the truest most conservative ridiculous definition (2% WR on Fat Fat Fat FIRE with pensions and HC covered) and somebody wants to pay me for something I am already doing for fun/hobby/whatever....I am definitely not saying no. 

And the 4% rule is not guaranteed, so why not for that reason too.  And shit happens (like divorce) that can f things up, so why not take the money for that reason too. 

As for the charity, I think I recall that he said he would put most of the money toward charitable pursuits but I think he has only evidenced about $100k.  And because of the more recent twitter comment that said he would be ramping up the blog to buy a house suggest that minimally his intended purpose has changed.....not too mention some or a lot of the money has also going to building up his assets in other ways too.  So the $100k was nice, but the indicated saving of the world was not completely followed through.

And for the definition of FIRE - for me it falls under the following:

A) if your investments can support your "DESIRED" lifestyle then you are FIRE'd
B) it they can't, then you are not. 
C) possible exception is one time expense...like maybe you want to take your family on a bitching month long safari trip to Africa that all in is $20k so you decide to go to work to cover the expense (this only applies if its a one time desire and not recurring expectation of this kind of travel every year.    But if you budget $5k for travel and decide to forgo other travel for the next 3 years - then still FIRE'd.

* I think it also possible to move between the three scenarios as your Desired Lifestyle evolves that can result in inflation or deflation - after all peoples interests/desires can change.

[dragoncar]

Personally, I don't think I would turn down free money regardless of how much I had.

Don't you know?  Once you retire, you can't do any market research or do any trades.  That's effort in exchange for money.  Not allowed in FIRE.  Nope.

[Boofinator]

And for the definition of FIRE - for me it falls under the following:

A) if your investments can support your "DESIRED" lifestyle then you are FIRE'd
B) it they can't, then you are not. 
C) possible exception is one time expense...like maybe you want to take your family on a bitching month long safari trip to Africa that all in is $20k so you decide to go to work to cover the expense (this only applies if its a one time desire and not recurring expectation of this kind of travel every year.    But if you budget $5k for travel and decide to forgo other travel for the next 3 years - then still FIRE'd.

I'm curious, do you draw a distinction between FI and FIRE? In my mind they are two different statuses, delineated by the "RE" portion of the acronym.

[Boofinator]

Personally, I don't think I would turn down free money regardless of how much I had.

Don't you know?  Once you retire, you can't do any market research or do any trades.  That's effort in exchange for money.  Not allowed in FIRE.  Nope.

Does market research create earned income? (Other than for folks whose job it is to manage money.)

[iris lily]

For heavens sake, the Snark blogs like reddit subs have a place in the world. It keeps a lot of the Snark out of this website for one thing. Would you rather have it in here? I think not.

I thought that a sub Reddit about Mr. Orange’s journal would’ve been a lot of fun.

[dragoncar]

Personally, I don't think I would turn down free money regardless of how much I had.

Don't you know?  Once you retire, you can't do any market research or do any trades.  That's effort in exchange for money.  Not allowed in FIRE.  Nope.

Does market research create earned income? (Other than for folks whose job it is to manage money.)

Does the blog create earned income?  Depends on which dictionary you are using.

[DreamFIRE]

And for the definition of FIRE - for me it falls under the following:

A) if your investments can support your "DESIRED" lifestyle then you are FIRE'd

By that definition, I'm already FIREd, yet my FIRE target is 5 to 15 months off as I continue to work the same full time job that I've had for 18 years.

To me, simply having the funds to FIRE makes me FI, not FIRE, since I've never retired for the RE part.

A similar comment was made earlier in this thread that I responded to the same way...
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/mmm-hate/msg2258284/#msg2258284

[DadJokes]

And for the definition of FIRE - for me it falls under the following:

A) if your investments can support your "DESIRED" lifestyle then you are FIRE'd
B) it they can't, then you are not. 
C) possible exception is one time expense...like maybe you want to take your family on a bitching month long safari trip to Africa that all in is $20k so you decide to go to work to cover the expense (this only applies if its a one time desire and not recurring expectation of this kind of travel every year.    But if you budget $5k for travel and decide to forgo other travel for the next 3 years - then still FIRE'd.

I'm curious, do you draw a distinction between FI and FIRE? In my mind they are two different statuses, delineated by the "RE" portion of the acronym.

I think certain people just started calling it FI instead of FIRE just to avoid the internet retirement police. As far as I can tell, it’s the same movement and the same type of people.

[EscapeVelocity2020]

And for the definition of FIRE - for me it falls under the following:

A) if your investments can support your "DESIRED" lifestyle then you are FIRE'd
B) it they can't, then you are not. 
C) possible exception is one time expense...like maybe you want to take your family on a bitching month long safari trip to Africa that all in is $20k so you decide to go to work to cover the expense (this only applies if its a one time desire and not recurring expectation of this kind of travel every year.    But if you budget $5k for travel and decide to forgo other travel for the next 3 years - then still FIRE'd.

I'm curious, do you draw a distinction between FI and FIRE? In my mind they are two different statuses, delineated by the "RE" portion of the acronym.

I think certain people just started calling it FI instead of FIRE just to avoid the internet retirement police. As far as I can tell, it’s the same movement and the same type of people.

Have to call a giant Nah on this one.  The ER part of FIRE is important.  FI is one thing, very sustainable and most likely full of life getting increasingly easier (since FI and not ER).  FIRE is more a step off the cliff to saying this is it. 

What causes the hate, in general, is when the FI person then starts a blog, emphasizes the ER, and collects paychecks by selling some 'perfect version' of their life.  For the rest of us FI and not ER folk, or at least me personally, I wonder why they need ads and CC offers and sponsored income streams (Betterment, First Capital, SoFi...).  Once you're FI, talk about it clean and clear of who is incentivizing what (for example, Vanguard does not offer sponsored or affiliate offers, so people really do just love their funds), or just get on with life and hang out less on the internet.

[tooqk4u22]

And for the definition of FIRE - for me it falls under the following:

A) if your investments can support your "DESIRED" lifestyle then you are FIRE'd
B) it they can't, then you are not. 
C) possible exception is one time expense...like maybe you want to take your family on a bitching month long safari trip to Africa that all in is $20k so you decide to go to work to cover the expense (this only applies if its a one time desire and not recurring expectation of this kind of travel every year.    But if you budget $5k for travel and decide to forgo other travel for the next 3 years - then still FIRE'd.

I'm curious, do you draw a distinction between FI and FIRE? In my mind they are two different statuses, delineated by the "RE" portion of the acronym.

Not really, because to me FI is all that matters - I am not a member of the IRP.  The RE part I think of more I can do whatever I want now....work, sit on the couch and eat Cheetos, volunteer, whatever suits my mind.  The key being A above, like I said I do think its possible to move through the levels.

If you apply above to MMM I do feel that he started at A (he had enough cash flow to live their desired life at the time) then went to C (think working in Hawaii in trade for family vacation) then with all of his side pursuits morphed into B (whether through the blog or on his personal statement those things cost money that were outside of what his investments likely would have covered if not for the blog).  And I wonder if because of the divorce he is currently in either B or C due to his twitter post about having to raise revenue to buy the house.  But he could be back to A in a month for all we know once the house is bought and paid for.

[tooqk4u22]

And for the definition of FIRE - for me it falls under the following:

A) if your investments can support your "DESIRED" lifestyle then you are FIRE'd

By that definition, I'm already FIREd, yet my FIRE target is 5 to 15 months off as I continue to work the same full time job that I've had for 18 years.

To me, simply having the funds to FIRE makes me FI, not FIRE, since I've never retired for the RE part.

A similar comment was made earlier in this thread that I responded to the same way...
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/mmm-hate/msg2258284/#msg2258284

Have to call a giant Nah on this one.  The ER part of FIRE is important.  FI is one thing, very sustainable and most likely full of life getting increasingly easier (since FI and not ER).  FIRE is more a step off the cliff to saying this is it. 

I will disagree to your disagreements....I may or may not be retiring from working who knows, but I am absolutely retiring from doing things I don't want to do - that to me is the ER part.  So if one decides that they hit FI and decide to stay in your job for another year then its a choice and my guess its driven by some pension or other bronze/golden handcuffs that one doesn't want to forego, but if its needed to work the next year for your desired lifestyle then no you haven't reached FI or FIRE.   FI to me is well beyond FU money. 

What causes the hate, in general, is when the FI person then starts a blog, emphasizes the ER, and collects paychecks by selling some 'perfect version' of their life.  For the rest of us FI and not ER folk, or at least me personally, I wonder why they need ads and CC offers and sponsored income streams (Betterment, First Capital, SoFi...).  Once you're FI, talk about it clean and clear of who is incentivizing what (for example, Vanguard does not offer sponsored or affiliate offers, so people really do just love their funds), or just get on with life and hang out less on the internet.

I don't think its the monetization itself that is the problem and is more the inconsistencies of messaging between expenses of personal vs. blog and the rhetoric of I only do this for fun and don't need money or monetization but then do the sales pitch for various products to drive revenue (albeit much less than other websites).  Not to mention the masses hate a winner....I am sure the hate increased exponentially when it came out that he pulled in $400k.   People like crabs have a tendency to pull others down.

[EscapeVelocity2020]

Maybe we don’t disagree as much as we think.  It’s interesting that you use ER to say ‘retire from doing the parts of work that you don’t like’.  To me then, making money, especially at the 400k level involves crap like paying estimated taxes, curating comments and spam, handling big spikes in traffic, and lots of behind the scenes work.  You don’t just type up something fun (like on this forum) hit post and cash a cheque.  When I ER, my only job will be managing my investments and tracking spending.  Even those tasks will be minimized as much as possible so I can focus my remaining time and energy on other pursuits, none of which will produce income (unless I discover some unknown talent).  Even then, I’d prefer expressing that skill without money being involved.

[nereo]

never seemed like MMM started this blog with the intent to make money.  Back in the early days it was just him banging out his frustration of consumeristic society as a sort of cathartic release. It only became a cash cow years down the road when  his early blog posts started getting picked up on national news stories and the forum membership exploded.  Ironically by this time his personal involvement had already gone into steep decline; int he first few years he was posting weekly, then monthly.  now it's 3-4 articles per year and essentially zero forum presence.

[FenderBender]

HATE  HATERS

serious words, lots of impact, i get it, cools words these days, but no one really hates MMM, people might hate that he seems not to live what he preaches but they don't hate him.  i said on page 1 that i didn't "like" him but i meant i didn't like that he seems to not live what he preaches and so i eventually stopped reading what he wrote. 

for those living on 25k or less each year, i don't hate you either.  very happy for you if you are living on so little and are happy.   high five to you! 

tidbits of what pete has wrote indicate he's hell bent on banking income to grow his net worth.  his frugal living message has changed some people's financial ways, but other than this, i haven't heard that he's giving in any major way beyond his messaging.  some might say he's given but he keeps it a secret, but for someone who is supposedly out to change the world, one would think he'd be very public about his giving .... the typical i made it story, i give back but i haven't heard that about him.  he seems more of a banker than a giver, but maybe i've missed some articles related to his giving so please correct me if i'm wrong.

[tooqk4u22]

Maybe we don’t disagree as much as we think.  It’s interesting that you use ER to say ‘retire from doing the parts of work that you don’t like’.  To me then, making money, especially at the 400k level involves crap like paying estimated taxes, curating comments and spam, handling big spikes in traffic, and lots of behind the scenes work.  You don’t just type up something fun (like on this forum) hit post and cash a cheque.  When I ER, my only job will be managing my investments and tracking spending.  Even those tasks will be minimized as much as possible so I can focus my remaining time and energy on other pursuits, none of which will produce income (unless I discover some unknown talent).  Even then, I’d prefer expressing that skill without money being involved.

I agree, all that stuff sounds awful and still like work.  The hobby became a business and living beast that needed to be fed and also led to other things like MMM HQ.  That said being completely without work still comes with BS.....even as you say tracking your spending and investments (still requires some thought and effort on the mundane).  Heck, just living requires a lot of that...laundry, dishes, taking out the trash, etc. So there will always be some BS stuff.

never seemed like MMM started this blog with the intent to make money.  Back in the early days it was just him banging out his frustration of consumeristic society as a sort of cathartic release. It only became a cash cow years down the road when  his early blog posts started getting picked up on national news stories and the forum membership exploded.  Ironically by this time his personal involvement had already gone into steep decline; int he first few years he was posting weekly, then monthly.  now it's 3-4 articles per year and essentially zero forum presence.

I agree that he started it for fun and just to type shit into the computer with no further expectation, although the blog was pretty well designed from the start and he said he and his wife discussed it before starting it so I am a little bit suspect that there wasn't a touch of it being a neat low expectation side hustle/business pursuit. 

Also, you keep saying only 3-4 this but he had 13 posts in 2018 and 18 in 2017 so no.  And as EV said running the thing requires a bunch of behind the scenes BS.  And as I said above it also may have gotten bigger

[nereo]

Also, you keep saying only 3-4 this but he had 13 posts in 2018 and 18 in 2017 so no.  And as EV said running the thing requires a bunch of behind the scenes BS.  And as I said above it also may have gotten bigger

Ah, it seems you are correct on the more recent posts, while I underestimated the number of posts he made back in his early days.  This is why relying on memory does.  He was posting roughly monthly in 2018 (13x) and slightly more than monthly in 2017, but back 'in the beggining' he was posting multiple times per week - over 100 posts in the first 60 months, and ~2x/week for most of 2012 and 2013.

point is, his posting frequency (a measure of effort) has steadily dwindled year-after-year, which is the opposite of what one wold expect if he were trying now to 'ramp up' things.

[patchyfacialhair]

For heavens sake, the Snark blogs like reddit subs have a place in the world. It keeps a lot of the Snark out of this website for one thing. Would you rather have it in here? I think not.

I thought that a sub Reddit about Mr. Orange’s journal would’ve been a lot of fun.

Did he get banned? I know the journal was locked of course and he hasn't been very active since.

[nereo]

for those living on 25k or less each year, i don't hate you either.  very happy for you if you are living on so little and are happy.   high five to you! 

You seem to think that living on $25k after housing expenses is "so little", which is a point of contention with me.  That's more than 95% of humanity, and puts you pretty close to the middle of US households. Or to put it another way: If you think its extreme frugality you are missing the point.

I thought that a sub Reddit about Mr. Orange’s journal would’ve been a lot of fun.

Did he get banned? I know the journal was locked of course and he hasn't been very active since.

That surprised me as well - first time I've seen Mods lock an individual journal (though it wasn't without cause).

[FenderBender]

for those living on 25k or less each year, i don't hate you either.  very happy for you if you are living on so little and are happy.   high five to you! 

You seem to think that living on $25k after housing expenses is "so little", which is a point of contention with me.  That's more than 95% of humanity, and puts you pretty close to the middle of US households. Or to put it another way: If you think its extreme frugality you are missing the point.

I thought that a sub Reddit about Mr. Orange’s journal would’ve been a lot of fun.

Did he get banned? I know the journal was locked of course and he hasn't been very active since.

That surprised me as well - first time I've seen Mods lock an individual journal (though it wasn't without cause).

is that 25k gross or net income?  i've never bothered to ask.

my wife is from the Philippines, i see first hand what it is like to live on very little.  but, things are different in the US vs. the philippines for example i can hire a handyman or a gardener and pay 8 to 10 dollars for an entire day's work.  i can also get an hour massage for 4 dollars on weekdays, 5 dollars on weekends.   so as you say 95% are living on less, i understand but that shouldn't be compared to life in the US.    btw, i also see my wife's mom and dad who are over 75 live without AC which people in the US who claim to care about global warming are largely not willing to do (not saying you aren't, this is just a side note to the hypocrisy). 

[tooqk4u22]

Also, you keep saying only 3-4 this but he had 13 posts in 2018 and 18 in 2017 so no.  And as EV said running the thing requires a bunch of behind the scenes BS.  And as I said above it also may have gotten bigger

Ah, it seems you are correct on the more recent posts, while I underestimated the number of posts he made back in his early days.  This is why relying on memory does.  He was posting roughly monthly in 2018 (13x) and slightly more than monthly in 2017, but back 'in the beggining' he was posting multiple times per week - over 100 posts in the first 60 months, and ~2x/week for most of 2012 and 2013.

point is, his posting frequency (a measure of effort) has steadily dwindled year-after-year, which is the opposite of what one wold expect if he were trying now to 'ramp up' things.

Yup, but the ramp it up (revenue) was from his words not mine.   And the added history above supports a number of our collective theses and mine such that he started with a bit of business plan, wrote extensively, created a bunch of revenue then either got tired/bored of all the work of writing so much and tapered off - I mean after all that is when the writing slowed down. 

Separately, you probably feel like he wrote only 3-4 posts last year because most of them were crap/uninteresting/off message or whatever.

[Cassie]

Living on 25k after housing is a very different experience depending on where you live. Even in the states the COL really varies. Do you pay for health insurance. Ours is 1k/month but it’s good insurance through my former employer.  Also at 64 I am much less willing to go without comfort then I was when young.  Plus who knows how much time I have left so we are traveling, eating out and paying for experiences. Having lived frugal my entire life this is a time to enjoy. 

[nereo]

for those living on 25k or less each year, i don't hate you either.  very happy for you if you are living on so little and are happy.   high five to you! 

You seem to think that living on $25k after housing expenses is "so little", which is a point of contention with me.  That's more than 95% of humanity, and puts you pretty close to the middle of US households. Or to put it another way: If you think its extreme frugality you are missing the point.

I thought that a sub Reddit about Mr. Orange’s journal would’ve been a lot of fun.

Did he get banned? I know the journal was locked of course and he hasn't been very active since.

That surprised me as well - first time I've seen Mods lock an individual journal (though it wasn't without cause).

is that 25k gross or net income?  i've never bothered to ask.

You have an opinion but you've never bothered to ask?  Even after you expressed skepticism about its feasibility because you supposedly tried it but couldn't?
It's $25k in spending with a paid off house, as has been said multiple times throughout this thread and on the blog.
Not income.  Spending. 

[Cassie]

I am curious Nereo where you live.

[FenderBender]

You have an opinion but you've never bothered to ask?  Even after you expressed skepticism about its feasibility because you supposedly tried it but couldn't?

i always thought it was net but wanted to be sure.  thank you.  i think i already commented about the feasibility thing.

[FenderBender]

for those living on 25k or less each year, i don't hate you either.  very happy for you if you are living on so little and are happy.   high five to you! 

when i say so little i mean from prospective of not me but society as a whole since most if not all around me spend a lot more just based on the cars they drive and the size of their homes and where they go on vacation.

i really need to look at my own spending, because maybe i'm spending way less than i think, i look at pie chart bank website produces and just glance at it for the most part.  my saving over the years has been so off the charts great that detailing spend out in detail is meaningless.   

[mathlete]

Skimmed the first two pages.

Doesn't anyone have any concrete examples of the hate? Seems like that would be a useful place to start.

[mathlete]

Skimmed the first two pages.

Doesn't anyone have any concrete examples of the hate? Seems like that would be a useful place to start.

check out page 3. Some very wise person posted a link to one "I hate MMM" blog ;-). There are more on other FI websites I've seen.

Hahah! Thanks!

Wow... that's really... something. I get being put off by smugness and judgmental nature of the cult persona. Not my cup of tea either. But everyone turns it up to 15 on their blog. I'm sure the real dude is really chill. They should afford him the benefit of keeping that in mind.

Actually, maybe people turn it up to 15 when posting on r/blogsnark too. We should give them a little bit of that benefit too.

[Zikoris]

You have an opinion but you've never bothered to ask?  Even after you expressed skepticism about its feasibility because you supposedly tried it but couldn't?

i always thought it was net but wanted to be sure.  thank you.  i think i already commented about the feasibility thing.

Net spending does not exist. You might as well ask if it's yellow or purple spending.

[dogboyslim]

...Regarding the insurance - that's basically what self-insurance is all about.  Insurance companies make money off of you.  If you can afford to cover the worst case scenario it's typically better to self insure, or at most carry catastrophic insurance with a very high deductible (which is our basic strategy).

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This has absolutely nothing to do with it.  All insurance policies are calculated to generate profits for the insurance company, and it's a pretty fat margin. 
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FWIW.  I do not recommend self insuring the home unless you purchase additional liability coverage that HO insurance typically includes (which is specifically excluded from auto liability policies).  While property risks are known, liability risks are not, and they are messy, and liability policies also cover defense costs.

As to insurance company profits, typically 5-10% of Homeowners premium is targeted for profit.  25-35% of premium goes to cover the expenses of the insurance company, so really, 30-45% of your premium is going to something other than covering your risk of loss.  If you can afford to self-insure, you will be financially better in terms of expectation.  The issue is the process risk faced by the large loss of the home that most cannot absorb, so again, self insurance is not recommended unless you can truly absorb the loss.

[nereo]

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[dragoncar]

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[nereo]

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you ignorant bastard!!!

[DreamFIRE]

And for the definition of FIRE - for me it falls under the following:

A) if your investments can support your "DESIRED" lifestyle then you are FIRE'd

By that definition, I'm already FIREd, yet my FIRE target is 5 to 15 months off as I continue to work the same full time job that I've had for 18 years.

To me, simply having the funds to FIRE makes me FI, not FIRE, since I've never retired for the RE part.

A similar comment was made earlier in this thread that I responded to the same way...
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/mmm-hate/msg2258284/#msg2258284

Have to call a giant Nah on this one.  The ER part of FIRE is important.  FI is one thing, very sustainable and most likely full of life getting increasingly easier (since FI and not ER).  FIRE is more a step off the cliff to saying this is it. 

I will disagree to your disagreements....I may or may not be retiring from working who knows, but I am absolutely retiring from doing things I don't want to do - that to me is the ER part.  So if one decides that they hit FI and decide to stay in your job for another year then its a choice and my guess its driven by some pension or other bronze/golden handcuffs that one doesn't want to forego, but if its needed to work the next year for your desired lifestyle then no you haven't reached FI or FIRE.   FI to me is well beyond FU money.

Your definition that I responded to wasn't you talking about FI or FU money.  You specifically stated:
A) if your investments can support your "DESIRED" lifestyle then you are FIRE'd".

Based on that definition, I am already FIREd, because I already have enough stash for FAT FIRE to support my DESIRED lifestyle, more than double my required expenses, even though I'm still working over 40 hours per week at the same full time job I've had for 18 years.  No pension, necessity to work, nor golden handcuffs in the mix - all irrelevant.  I think it's ridiculous to suggest that I'm already FIREd to anyone.  So what, my stash passed a threshold one day, but nothing else in my life changed.  The job continues as it has for years.  I'm merely FI, not FIREd.

I don't call that FIREd, and I don't call it retired.  I call it working my full time job while being FI.  But that's fine for anyone that disagrees and wants to called me FIREd.  Either way, I'm on the cohort list to FIRE at a future date, when I will stop working at my job and be truly FIREd.

arebelspy explained the difference between FI and RE on this forum about 5 years back:

Dummy question but what is really the difference?

FI/Financially independent = You no longer have to work for money, your investments provide enough to cover your annual living expenses.

RE (or ER) = You retired from your job.  Usually after FI.

Semi-ER = You switched to part-time work.

MMM equates the two terms as identical, even if you haven't yet left your job he calls you "retired."  Many of us here disagree.  But the above are the most common definitions.

[oldtoyota]

Since the divorce, MMM has popped up on a few of the other blogs I frequent with varying degrees of awareness. Much like many MSM articles that allow comments, the misinformation, assumptions, and straight up lies about what he is or is not is shocking. People aren't educated, and don't want to be educated. Several pages of people arguing whether he's retired or not. "He run a blog. It makes money. Not retired. QED". "He eats catfood, never travels or does anything fun, just sits in his home alone counting dollars"

What causes this? Why is this subject so bloody controversial and bringing out the worst in so many people? Why do people go out of their way to remain ignorant, and discount what he says, by straight up twisting it to fit whatever biases they have?

Maybe it comes from anger toward themselves over not being able to restrain themselves from buying this or that. Over the years, I just assumed we weren't doing as well as others. We weren't taking the fancy vacations, driving beautiful cars. Our clothing is okay but not the best. The furlough has happened and I see people saying they will stop their Target runs. "Target run" as thought that is a noun. Wow! People are doing things like "Target runs" and using up their money for it. This is scary for many reasons.

Well, people realize they don't have much saved. They see they spent too much on stupid things and they feel bad, so they lash out at strangers.