If you could live anywhere in the US...?

[Wolfpack Mustachian]

A lot of these responses talk about moving towards cities as a positive place to live/change of location (NYC, etc.). Has anyone moved from a rural/semi-rural environment to a larger city and had positive experiences with it? Just curious if, as people have relocated, they have relocated to areas of similar population density or if they've jumped into an entirely different one and had a positive experience with it.

[Kris]

A lot of these responses talk about moving towards cities as a positive place to live/change of location (NYC, etc.). Has anyone moved from a rural/semi-rural environment to a larger city and had positive experiences with it? Just curious if, as people have relocated, they have relocated to areas of similar population density or if they've jumped into an entirely different one and had a positive experience with it.

I have. I grew up in semi-rural areas. My first job out of grad school was to a semi-rural area, as well. I left for the city and am so much happier.

[RetiredAt63]

I worked in Hanover for a few years around 2010 - it's a nice area if you don't mind NH weather.

Every Canadian east of the Rockies is killing themselves laughing at this.   ;-)

People often ask how we like the Maine winter.
Our stock response is: “it’s a lot milder and shorter”

Well you were in Quebec City - which is well North of Montreal or Ottawa and a lot colder and snowier.  Are Maine winters really that easy?  I thought they would be comparable to Montreal, except close to the coast where it would be more like Halifax or St. John.

[nereo]

A lot of these responses talk about moving towards cities as a positive place to live/change of location (NYC, etc.). Has anyone moved from a rural/semi-rural environment to a larger city and had positive experiences with it? Just curious if, as people have relocated, they have relocated to areas of similar population density or if they've jumped into an entirely different one and had a positive experience with it.

Twice in my life I’ve lived in very rural areas, and then moved to an urban location. Both times the move was a huge QOL upgrade for us, even as our lodging expenses more than doubled.

We still love some aspects of rural living, which probably explains why we are now living in a very small town about 20 minutes from a medium city and 5 minutes from the nearest dairy farm. Unique spot where we get some of everything (including HCOL).

So… sorta?

[sui generis]

A lot of these responses talk about moving towards cities as a positive place to live/change of location (NYC, etc.). Has anyone moved from a rural/semi-rural environment to a larger city and had positive experiences with it? Just curious if, as people have relocated, they have relocated to areas of similar population density or if they've jumped into an entirely different one and had a positive experience with it.

I grew up partially in an exurban area and moved to the city and my life got so much better.  It's a lot to do with the correlation of exurban/rural areas with racism, misogyny, extreme Christianity, etc. that made me miserable, but since not *all* rural areas are that way, I am sort of interested in finding out if I would like living rural if there was an absence of those things.

[wenchsenior]

A lot of these responses talk about moving towards cities as a positive place to live/change of location (NYC, etc.). Has anyone moved from a rural/semi-rural environment to a larger city and had positive experiences with it? Just curious if, as people have relocated, they have relocated to areas of similar population density or if they've jumped into an entirely different one and had a positive experience with it.

I grew up living in a very rural area where the nearest sizeable town was 7,000 people. LOVED it (but I was a kid).

Moved to the Madison area (small city) for a few years as a teenager and LOVED it.

Moved to Tucson, large city in a radically different climate, for college, and LOVED it.

Worked regularly in remote rural or wilderness areas on and off as a young adult. LOVED it.

Moved to Minneapolis/St Paul (huge city) for about 2 years as a young adult. It was ok.

Moved to a small city in Texas (same approximate size as Madison but about one-one hundredth as cool), where I've been living for 20 years. STRONGLY DISLIKE it.

I really think it depends on where the place is, rather than how big. I might even like a really big city under some circumstances, though it's clearly not my natural preference, which is to be able to get far away from people.

[Morning Glory]

I noticed I slept much better after moving from an isolated farm house to an apartment complex.  I just feel safer with people around I guess. 

[Villanelle]

I recently moved from a "downtown" area, old-style Main Street type vibe that was part of a large metro area, to a suburb of the same metro area.  It was a definitely QOL downgrade.  We moved when spouse's work moved as just about anything else would have been a long commute, so it made sense, but I'm definitely less happy out in the 'burbs, with large, lovely homes, chain restaurants, and basically nothing walkable from anything else.

[Metalcat]

A lot of these responses talk about moving towards cities as a positive place to live/change of location (NYC, etc.). Has anyone moved from a rural/semi-rural environment to a larger city and had positive experiences with it? Just curious if, as people have relocated, they have relocated to areas of similar population density or if they've jumped into an entirely different one and had a positive experience with it.

I grew up in a small village that was close to a major city. I've lived in all sorts of different population densities in my life. I currently have two homes, one in a small village and one in a major city. I own another property in a small 70K person city that I'm considering relocating to at some point. 

In general though, I'm someone who is tremendously adaptable and extremely comfortable with change. I like radical lifestyle changes on a regular basis.

I would lose my bloody mind if I lived in generally the same size/kind of place my entire life.

[mastrr]

down south to a red state.

[Cranky]

So, in my fair city, the main streets are plowed and salted, but for water quality reasons residential streets are plowed but not salted, and after a few days they are a sheet of ice.

I value my bones, and I will not walk on that ice no matter what my footwear is. When I was 40 I would have done it (and I've trudged over a lot of ice and snow) but not now. It makes for a long winter.

My city is the same. In some ways it's worse when you aren't far enough north to have snows that stay frozen.

Have you ever tried YakTrax? I rely on them for navigating ice sheets. But I am "only" 40 and can still risk it.

I do have Yak Trax, and they are helpful for making it down the street, but not so great for long walks, and a big nuisance to take on and off if I'm going to the library.

I mean, I do walk 3 blocks to and from the elementary school every day in the winter, but it's precarious and a lot depends on whether people have done their shoveling.

[wenchsenior]

So, honestly,  how annoying are the tourists? :she asks having been a tourist multiple times there:  And also, do you go to Madison for medical care or is there something closer?

I honestly don't mind the tourists at all. We don't get so many that it's disruptive, and they help us have more good local businesses.

For healthcare, we have two really good small clinics in town and a solid regional hospital seven miles away in Dodgeville. People do go in to the Madison hospitals for more complicated/specialized stuff.

I have another, more specialized question, which you might or might not have an answer to.

While researching the whole Iowa Co area, one of my big challenges is that I really need access to a pool for lap swimming, and I think that's likely to rule out most of the area. Then yesterday I ran across pictures of an incredible looking fitness facility with a pool (Comer Activity Center) in Dodgeville. I guess it was built by the Land's End founder? Anyway, it doesn't have a typical gym website so I'm wondering if it's private? Or only for use by Land's End people? And if so, that seems crazy, but not as crazy I guess as having a state of the art gym in a town of ~4,000 people.

Do you know if regular people can use that facility? And if not, do you know of any year round pools (like YMCA) type pools in the area?  UGH, if I had another 300K to burn, I'd just chuck this idea of living in the country and move to the planned community in Middleton right near the Harbour Athletic club, but money is a definite limiting factor. Assuming I settled on moving to WI at all.

[Log]

A lot of these responses talk about moving towards cities as a positive place to live/change of location (NYC, etc.). Has anyone moved from a rural/semi-rural environment to a larger city and had positive experiences with it? Just curious if, as people have relocated, they have relocated to areas of similar population density or if they've jumped into an entirely different one and had a positive experience with it.

I grew up in low-density outer-ring suburbia in the PNW, did undergrad in a pretty rural college town, and then grad school in Manhattan. Up until then I had always been very uncomfortable when visiting big cities, and I went to NYC somewhat begrudgingly in order to work with a specific professor. But my prior conception of big city life, based only on being a tourist, had been extremely misleading. I always felt anxious and uncomfortable as a tourist in cities, but actually living in NYC, I could settle in and get to know the neighborhoods I frequented at a more intimate level. I've since learned to appreciate other cities much more as a tourist, but there's really nothing like living there to get comfortable in a city. Since leaving NYC, I very much want to get back to dense urban living as soon as possible.

I would honestly go so far as to suggest basically all people should live in a big city for a couple years at some point in their life. There's a set of trade-offs from suburban/rural living, and I think status quo bias makes those trade-offs seem much worse when low-density living is all one has ever known. Private space is more scarce and therefore more expensive, so the same amount of money will get you a small apartment instead of a house with a yard... but in exchange you get much better public space. You don't get to drive and park your car wherever you want for free, but you can walk for basically any regular errands and have transit to reach destinations further away. You might need to feel slightly more cautious about watching your personal belongings in public, but you get to be in a vibrant, communal space where you feel connected to other people. I frankly think suburban living is associated with the atomization, loneliness, social anxiety, and general fear of other people that is becoming all too common in this country. I had to experience city living for myself in order to discover I'm actually just much happier when I spend time in a walkable city, in close contact with a lot of other people.

All the walking is great for overall health and happiness, compared to clown-car life. Also, financially speaking, being able to go fully car-free goes a long way towards compensating for higher cost of living in other categories. Frankly, MMM was a contributing factor to me considering the benefits to car-free urban life. And I think in this community, his emphasis on minimizing driving is one of the most oft-ignored tenet, because people rightfully say, "it's not safe/practical to walk/bike where I live." Well then, move somewhere it's safe and practical.

My answer to this thread is without a doubt New York City, specifically somewhere in Manhattan or the close-in neighborhoods of Brooklyn. I lived in upper Manhattan already and I wouldn't choose to go back to the same neighborhoods I lived in, but maybe Morningside Heights (around Columbia). I'd never want to live in midtown, but I'd love to get to know lower Manhattan up close for a little while. For now I'd be aiming for hipper/younger neighborhoods, but I like the Upper West Side a lot and would probably be happy to settle there when I'm older.

[Kris]

A lot of these responses talk about moving towards cities as a positive place to live/change of location (NYC, etc.). Has anyone moved from a rural/semi-rural environment to a larger city and had positive experiences with it? Just curious if, as people have relocated, they have relocated to areas of similar population density or if they've jumped into an entirely different one and had a positive experience with it.

I grew up in low-density outer-ring suburbia in the PNW, did undergrad in a pretty rural college town, and then grad school in Manhattan. Up until then I had always been very uncomfortable when visiting big cities, and I went to NYC somewhat begrudgingly in order to work with a specific professor. But my prior conception of big city life, based only on being a tourist, had been extremely misleading. I always felt anxious and uncomfortable as a tourist in cities, but actually living in NYC, I could settle in and get to know the neighborhoods I frequented at a more intimate level. I've since learned to appreciate other cities much more as a tourist, but there's really nothing like living there to get comfortable in a city. Since leaving NYC, I very much want to get back to dense urban living as soon as possible.

I would honestly go so far as to suggest basically all people should live in a big city for a couple years at some point in their life. There's a set of trade-offs from suburban/rural living, and I think status quo bias makes those trade-offs seem much worse when low-density living is all one has ever known. Private space is more scarce and therefore more expensive, so the same amount of money will get you a small apartment instead of a house with a yard... but in exchange you get much better public space. You don't get to drive and park your car wherever you want for free, but you can walk for basically any regular errands and have transit to reach destinations further away. You might need to feel slightly more cautious about watching your personal belongings in public, but you get to be in a vibrant, communal space where you feel connected to other people. I frankly think suburban living is associated with the atomization, loneliness, social anxiety, and general fear of other people that is becoming all too common in this country. I had to experience city living for myself in order to discover I'm actually just much happier when I spend time in a walkable city, in close contact with a lot of other people.

All the walking is great for overall health and happiness, compared to clown-car life. Also, financially speaking, being able to go fully car-free goes a long way towards compensating for higher cost of living in other categories. Frankly, MMM was a contributing factor to me considering the benefits to car-free urban life. And I think in this community, his emphasis on minimizing driving is one of the most oft-ignored tenet, because people rightfully say, "it's not safe/practical to walk/bike where I live." Well then, move somewhere it's safe and practical.

My answer to this thread is without a doubt New York City, specifically somewhere in Manhattan or the close-in neighborhoods of Brooklyn. I lived in upper Manhattan already and I wouldn't choose to go back to the same neighborhoods I lived in, but maybe Morningside Heights (around Columbia). I'd never want to live in midtown, but I'd love to get to know lower Manhattan up close for a little while. For now I'd be aiming for hipper/younger neighborhoods, but I like the Upper West Side a lot and would probably be happy to settle there when I'm older.

I 100% agree with you re the tradeoffs between low-density and high-density living, and public vs. private space.

[PDXTabs]

A lot of these responses talk about moving towards cities as a positive place to live/change of location (NYC, etc.). Has anyone moved from a rural/semi-rural environment to a larger city and had positive experiences with it? Just curious if, as people have relocated, they have relocated to areas of similar population density or if they've jumped into an entirely different one and had a positive experience with it.

I grew up in low-density outer-ring suburbia in the PNW, did undergrad in a pretty rural college town, and then grad school in Manhattan. Up until then I had always been very uncomfortable when visiting big cities, and I went to NYC somewhat begrudgingly in order to work with a specific professor. But my prior conception of big city life, based only on being a tourist, had been extremely misleading. I always felt anxious and uncomfortable as a tourist in cities, but actually living in NYC, I could settle in and get to know the neighborhoods I frequented at a more intimate level. I've since learned to appreciate other cities much more as a tourist, but there's really nothing like living there to get comfortable in a city. Since leaving NYC, I very much want to get back to dense urban living as soon as possible.

I would honestly go so far as to suggest basically all people should live in a big city for a couple years at some point in their life. There's a set of trade-offs from suburban/rural living, and I think status quo bias makes those trade-offs seem much worse when low-density living is all one has ever known. Private space is more scarce and therefore more expensive, so the same amount of money will get you a small apartment instead of a house with a yard... but in exchange you get much better public space. You don't get to drive and park your car wherever you want for free, but you can walk for basically any regular errands and have transit to reach destinations further away. You might need to feel slightly more cautious about watching your personal belongings in public, but you get to be in a vibrant, communal space where you feel connected to other people. I frankly think suburban living is associated with the atomization, loneliness, social anxiety, and general fear of other people that is becoming all too common in this country. I had to experience city living for myself in order to discover I'm actually just much happier when I spend time in a walkable city, in close contact with a lot of other people.

All the walking is great for overall health and happiness, compared to clown-car life. Also, financially speaking, being able to go fully car-free goes a long way towards compensating for higher cost of living in other categories. Frankly, MMM was a contributing factor to me considering the benefits to car-free urban life. And I think in this community, his emphasis on minimizing driving is one of the most oft-ignored tenet, because people rightfully say, "it's not safe/practical to walk/bike where I live." Well then, move somewhere it's safe and practical.

I would add that you don't have to live in a big city to get this. I'm currently hanging out in Edinburgh, UK in a neighborhood where almost nobody owns a car or drives. But it isn't a "big city," it only has ~500k residents. To bring this back on topic I would imagine that San Francisco, where I have visited in the past but not nearly as much, is similar (only ~875k residents).

[Wolfpack Mustachian]

A lot of these responses talk about moving towards cities as a positive place to live/change of location (NYC, etc.). Has anyone moved from a rural/semi-rural environment to a larger city and had positive experiences with it? Just curious if, as people have relocated, they have relocated to areas of similar population density or if they've jumped into an entirely different one and had a positive experience with it.

I grew up in low-density outer-ring suburbia in the PNW, did undergrad in a pretty rural college town, and then grad school in Manhattan. Up until then I had always been very uncomfortable when visiting big cities, and I went to NYC somewhat begrudgingly in order to work with a specific professor. But my prior conception of big city life, based only on being a tourist, had been extremely misleading. I always felt anxious and uncomfortable as a tourist in cities, but actually living in NYC, I could settle in and get to know the neighborhoods I frequented at a more intimate level. I've since learned to appreciate other cities much more as a tourist, but there's really nothing like living there to get comfortable in a city. Since leaving NYC, I very much want to get back to dense urban living as soon as possible.

I would honestly go so far as to suggest basically all people should live in a big city for a couple years at some point in their life. There's a set of trade-offs from suburban/rural living, and I think status quo bias makes those trade-offs seem much worse when low-density living is all one has ever known. Private space is more scarce and therefore more expensive, so the same amount of money will get you a small apartment instead of a house with a yard... but in exchange you get much better public space. You don't get to drive and park your car wherever you want for free, but you can walk for basically any regular errands and have transit to reach destinations further away. You might need to feel slightly more cautious about watching your personal belongings in public, but you get to be in a vibrant, communal space where you feel connected to other people. I frankly think suburban living is associated with the atomization, loneliness, social anxiety, and general fear of other people that is becoming all too common in this country. I had to experience city living for myself in order to discover I'm actually just much happier when I spend time in a walkable city, in close contact with a lot of other people.

All the walking is great for overall health and happiness, compared to clown-car life. Also, financially speaking, being able to go fully car-free goes a long way towards compensating for higher cost of living in other categories. Frankly, MMM was a contributing factor to me considering the benefits to car-free urban life. And I think in this community, his emphasis on minimizing driving is one of the most oft-ignored tenet, because people rightfully say, "it's not safe/practical to walk/bike where I live." Well then, move somewhere it's safe and practical.

My answer to this thread is without a doubt New York City, specifically somewhere in Manhattan or the close-in neighborhoods of Brooklyn. I lived in upper Manhattan already and I wouldn't choose to go back to the same neighborhoods I lived in, but maybe Morningside Heights (around Columbia). I'd never want to live in midtown, but I'd love to get to know lower Manhattan up close for a little while. For now I'd be aiming for hipper/younger neighborhoods, but I like the Upper West Side a lot and would probably be happy to settle there when I'm older.

I 100% agree with you re the tradeoffs between low-density and high-density living, and public vs. private space.

Thank you all for your thoughts. Other than college, I have lived in a couple of smaller non-walkable cities and fairly rural areas. I'm considering what to do eventually when the kids leave (still a ways away). I don't mind reduced home space - would like it to be honest. I really want walkability and accessibilty of cool things from hiking to ethnic grocery stores, but hugely crowded areas (bumping into people every few feet on a walk) make me feel a bit overwhelmed. Apartments are OK - sound carrying is my biggest drawback with them, but I think I could live with it.  All of that to say, I feel like I would really appreciate many of the public space improvements mentioned above but be challenged, at least somewhat, if there was heavy crowds and a little by apartments. It's nice to see that many enjoyed the tradeoffs from rural to urban. Anyways, sorry for derailing things!

[MMMarbleheader]

While I miss walkability of urban areas and there is a tangible reduced risks of driving, I have found the spirit of the people of northern New England to be much more mustachian and frugal than the people I knew when I lived in cities. We all haul our trash/recycling to the transfer station Saturday mornings, solve a lot of issues during town meeting, heat with wood from our land, potluck parties are the norm, etc. my kids go back and see their friends in the more urban place we used to live and it’s all about consumption with those kids. I am glad we got away from it, even though we have to drive a bit more.

But this type of rural living seems to be very much based around the New England town setup. Our town is 1000 people but we have our own select board, town meeting, elementary schools, etc. neighbors need to cooperate to make it all work. Our form of government was very similar to Small Towns in England. I and I am  not sure you would get the same vibe in more rural counties in other parts of the country that were founded by more tribal and  skeptical Scotts. Also our town was 70% Biden in 2020

[Log]

Further responses: yes, density is really the key metric rather than size. I’d also say it’s more accurate to think of living in a neighborhood rather than in a city. A lot of “big cities” are a whole bunch of sprawl, and a lot of small cities have great walkable neighborboods. Living in the same city can obviously be a vastly different experience from different neighborhoods. I personally would want to live somewhere with multiple contiguous walkable neighborhoods for easy access to more amenities and just for variety’s sake, but there’s still a lot of benefit to living in a walkable neighborhood even if it’s surrounded by car-centric sprawl.

Density doesn’t just mean building height, it can also just be smaller lots and narrower streets, so you can get these benefits without highrise/downtown vibes. Lots of neighborboods outside the core in the “bit cities” are dense with rowhouses and multi-plexes. Montreal is a really beautiful example of great urban density spread throughout the city, not just a core surrounded by car-dominated sprawl.

In regards to apartments, I think a lot of people get turned off apartment living when they live in cheap apartments during their student years. Nicer buildings will generally have more much better sound insulation.

[Villanelle]

A lot of these responses talk about moving towards cities as a positive place to live/change of location (NYC, etc.). Has anyone moved from a rural/semi-rural environment to a larger city and had positive experiences with it? Just curious if, as people have relocated, they have relocated to areas of similar population density or if they've jumped into an entirely different one and had a positive experience with it.

I grew up in low-density outer-ring suburbia in the PNW, did undergrad in a pretty rural college town, and then grad school in Manhattan. Up until then I had always been very uncomfortable when visiting big cities, and I went to NYC somewhat begrudgingly in order to work with a specific professor. But my prior conception of big city life, based only on being a tourist, had been extremely misleading. I always felt anxious and uncomfortable as a tourist in cities, but actually living in NYC, I could settle in and get to know the neighborhoods I frequented at a more intimate level. I've since learned to appreciate other cities much more as a tourist, but there's really nothing like living there to get comfortable in a city. Since leaving NYC, I very much want to get back to dense urban living as soon as possible.

I would honestly go so far as to suggest basically all people should live in a big city for a couple years at some point in their life. There's a set of trade-offs from suburban/rural living, and I think status quo bias makes those trade-offs seem much worse when low-density living is all one has ever known. Private space is more scarce and therefore more expensive, so the same amount of money will get you a small apartment instead of a house with a yard... but in exchange you get much better public space. You don't get to drive and park your car wherever you want for free, but you can walk for basically any regular errands and have transit to reach destinations further away. You might need to feel slightly more cautious about watching your personal belongings in public, but you get to be in a vibrant, communal space where you feel connected to other people. I frankly think suburban living is associated with the atomization, loneliness, social anxiety, and general fear of other people that is becoming all too common in this country. I had to experience city living for myself in order to discover I'm actually just much happier when I spend time in a walkable city, in close contact with a lot of other people.

All the walking is great for overall health and happiness, compared to clown-car life. Also, financially speaking, being able to go fully car-free goes a long way towards compensating for higher cost of living in other categories. Frankly, MMM was a contributing factor to me considering the benefits to car-free urban life. And I think in this community, his emphasis on minimizing driving is one of the most oft-ignored tenet, because people rightfully say, "it's not safe/practical to walk/bike where I live." Well then, move somewhere it's safe and practical.

My answer to this thread is without a doubt New York City, specifically somewhere in Manhattan or the close-in neighborhoods of Brooklyn. I lived in upper Manhattan already and I wouldn't choose to go back to the same neighborhoods I lived in, but maybe Morningside Heights (around Columbia). I'd never want to live in midtown, but I'd love to get to know lower Manhattan up close for a little while. For now I'd be aiming for hipper/younger neighborhoods, but I like the Upper West Side a lot and would probably be happy to settle there when I'm older.

Great post. 

Most of my formative years were spent on SoCal, so I'm sure that affected my view on cars.  But when we first moved to the urban main street location I mentioned earlier, there was only street parking.  DH could take public transport (2 options in case one method was down, even) to work nearly all of the time.  And still, I was pretty anxious about only having one car.  I think the only reason I talked myself into it was ultimately the knowledge that if it was terrible, we could easilya nd pretty quickly buy a second car. 

And then our car would sit for sometimes weeks at a time.  We'd occasionally drive it around the block for the sake of the battery and because technically, it wasn't supposed to stay on the public street more than 72 hours (though we never saw anyone with a street parking permit, which locals were issued by city hall with proof of address).  I loved living there.  I'm a pretty extreme introvert, but I still loved knowing the neighborhood and the neighbors, even if usually that just meant a waive and a nod.  It has become my favored form of neighborhood, when feasible with our other choices.

I've also live in Japan, and while we didn't live in Tokyo, I did fine it terribly overwhelming.  (I'm sure there were language and cultural issues at play there, too.)  Many people around me loved it, and I loved some things about it, but never felt at ease there.  I always felt like I was sort of missing something--the key to unlock the enjoyment that so many others got there.  I wonder if part of that is related to what you mention, and if living there would have eventually felt at least somewhat different.

[Metalcat]

So, in my fair city, the main streets are plowed and salted, but for water quality reasons residential streets are plowed but not salted, and after a few days they are a sheet of ice.

I value my bones, and I will not walk on that ice no matter what my footwear is. When I was 40 I would have done it (and I've trudged over a lot of ice and snow) but not now. It makes for a long winter.

My city is the same. In some ways it's worse when you aren't far enough north to have snows that stay frozen.

Have you ever tried YakTrax? I rely on them for navigating ice sheets. But I am "only" 40 and can still risk it.

I do have Yak Trax, and they are helpful for making it down the street, but not so great for long walks, and a big nuisance to take on and off if I'm going to the library.

I mean, I do walk 3 blocks to and from the elementary school every day in the winter, but it's precarious and a lot depends on whether people have done their shoveling.

Try boots with the spikes that can be easily flipped.

https://www.yellowshoes.com/products/iceridge?variant=28240615276616

[wenchsenior]

It's interesting how many people indicate liking the people generally around them/their home. I don't hate it, but I sure don't like it.  I don't even like to take walks in our neighborhood when there are a lot of people out and about (even though in the abstract, I like the idea that the people in the neighborhood are getting outside to our little park down the street, exercising, etc.)  I know my husband has come close to throwing punches while trying to just shop for 10 minutes in big city bodegas, or trying to walk down big city streets during rush hour, b/c he cannot tolerate how strangers will come so close and brush against him.  I am not quite that sensitive, but I similarly just find other people in my field of view, or within 6 feet of me, kind of...off putting. It's not b/c I don't want people looking at me (which I don't care about at all) and it's not b/c I feel actively unsafe or anxious. It's more like they distract me from things I really want to be looking at, b/c I feel I have to kind of remain 'aware' of what people in my vicinity are doing, and that makes me very tired and irritated. It's better if people are around me but sitting quietly or moving very slowly. So I can and do live in higher density areas (and for energy efficiency, I feel I SHOULD do it), but I doubt I'll ever enjoy it. Tolerating it is what I aim for. ETA:  I should also point out that I love the concept of walkability, both in abstract and in practice, and that conflicts with my desire to see as few people as possible.

I think the only time I really enjoy being around strangers in any capacity is during a concert/show/movie/sporting event, but honestly even then sometimes I dislike it.  Classes started last week on the university campus, and I was torn between sort of enjoying it b/c the first autumn week reminds me nostalgically of my freshman year of college, and being constantly irritated at how many people were suddenly everywhere, scurrying and loitering LOL (in the immortal words of Principal Snyder: "One day the campus is completely bare, empty. The next, there are children everywhere... Like locusts, crawling around, mindlessly bent on feeding and mating.")

Part of this might be that I've never had a sense of 'community' except associated with work, or small groups of friends. I do not associate that feeling remotely with random people in my neighborhood or on the streets I walk. I definitely attach myself emotionally to places (ecology, geology, landscape, even buildings) more than the people associated with the place. 

[Villanelle]

It's interesting how many people indicate liking the people generally around them/their home. I don't hate it, but I sure don't like it.  I don't even like to take walks in our neighborhood when there are a lot of people out and about (even though in the abstract, I like the idea that the people in the neighborhood are getting outside to our little park down the street, exercising, etc.)  I know my husband has come close to throwing punches while trying to just shop for 10 minutes in big city bodegas, or trying to walk down big city streets during rush hour, b/c he cannot tolerate how strangers will come so close and brush against him.  I am not quite that sensitive, but I similarly just find other people in my field of view, or within 6 feet of me, kind of...off putting. It's not b/c I don't want people looking at me (which I don't care about at all) and it's not b/c I feel actively unsafe or anxious. It's more like they distract me from things I really want to be looking at, b/c I feel I have to kind of remain 'aware' of what people in my vicinity are doing, and that makes me very tired and irritated. It's better if people are around me but sitting quietly or moving very slowly. So I can and do live in higher density areas (and for energy efficiency, I feel I SHOULD do it), but I doubt I'll ever enjoy it. Tolerating it is what I aim for. ETA:  I should also point out that I love the concept of walkability, both in abstract and in practice, and that conflicts with my desire to see as few people as possible.

I think the only time I really enjoy being around strangers in any capacity is during a concert/show/movie/sporting event, but honestly even then sometimes I dislike it.  Classes started last week on the university campus, and I was torn between sort of enjoying it b/c the first autumn week reminds me nostalgically of my freshman year of college, and being constantly irritated at how many people were suddenly everywhere, scurrying and loitering LOL (in the immortal words of Principal Snyder: "One day the campus is completely bare, empty. The next, there are children everywhere... Like locusts, crawling around, mindlessly bent on feeding and mating.")

Part of this might be that I've never had a sense of 'community' except associated with work, or small groups of friends. I do not associate that feeling remotely with random people in my neighborhood or on the streets I walk. I definitely attach myself emotionally to places (ecology, geology, landscape, even buildings) more than the people associated with the place.

Oh, I don't think I could ever live in the heart of a huge city where sidewalks at certain times of day are full of people pressed together like sardines if I had to be out in that.  Thankfully, there are small cities, or parts of large cities that never get that congested.  And as a non-employed person, I could avoid being out in rush-hour walking times most of the time, so it would be less of an issue. 

[Watchmaker]

I have another, more specialized question, which you might or might not have an answer to.

While researching the whole Iowa Co area, one of my big challenges is that I really need access to a pool for lap swimming, and I think that's likely to rule out most of the area. Then yesterday I ran across pictures of an incredible looking fitness facility with a pool (Comer Activity Center) in Dodgeville. I guess it was built by the Land's End founder? Anyway, it doesn't have a typical gym website so I'm wondering if it's private? Or only for use by Land's End people? And if so, that seems crazy, but not as crazy I guess as having a state of the art gym in a town of ~4,000 people.

Do you know if regular people can use that facility? And if not, do you know of any year round pools (like YMCA) type pools in the area?  UGH, if I had another 300K to burn, I'd just chuck this idea of living in the country and move to the planned community in Middleton right near the Harbour Athletic club, but money is a definite limiting factor. Assuming I settled on moving to WI at all.

I'll send you a PM.

[joemandadman189]

Here is another thread about where to live

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/post-fire/how-to-choose-where-to-live-127459/

[SuperNintendo Chalmers]

It's interesting how many people indicate liking the people generally around them/their home. I don't hate it, but I sure don't like it.  I don't even like to take walks in our neighborhood when there are a lot of people out and about (even though in the abstract, I like the idea that the people in the neighborhood are getting outside to our little park down the street, exercising, etc.)  I know my husband has come close to throwing punches while trying to just shop for 10 minutes in big city bodegas, or trying to walk down big city streets during rush hour, b/c he cannot tolerate how strangers will come so close and brush against him.  I am not quite that sensitive, but I similarly just find other people in my field of view, or within 6 feet of me, kind of...off putting. It's not b/c I don't want people looking at me (which I don't care about at all) and it's not b/c I feel actively unsafe or anxious. It's more like they distract me from things I really want to be looking at, b/c I feel I have to kind of remain 'aware' of what people in my vicinity are doing, and that makes me very tired and irritated. It's better if people are around me but sitting quietly or moving very slowly. So I can and do live in higher density areas (and for energy efficiency, I feel I SHOULD do it), but I doubt I'll ever enjoy it. Tolerating it is what I aim for. ETA:  I should also point out that I love the concept of walkability, both in abstract and in practice, and that conflicts with my desire to see as few people as possible.

I think the only time I really enjoy being around strangers in any capacity is during a concert/show/movie/sporting event, but honestly even then sometimes I dislike it.  Classes started last week on the university campus, and I was torn between sort of enjoying it b/c the first autumn week reminds me nostalgically of my freshman year of college, and being constantly irritated at how many people were suddenly everywhere, scurrying and loitering LOL (in the immortal words of Principal Snyder: "One day the campus is completely bare, empty. The next, there are children everywhere... Like locusts, crawling around, mindlessly bent on feeding and mating.")

Part of this might be that I've never had a sense of 'community' except associated with work, or small groups of friends. I do not associate that feeling remotely with random people in my neighborhood or on the streets I walk. I definitely attach myself emotionally to places (ecology, geology, landscape, even buildings) more than the people associated with the place.

I'm similar.  If I am running or hiking on the trails near my house and get to a point where the 360-degree view to the horizon includes beautiful scenery but no people, that's my happy place.  :)

[Trifle]

We did this Where-To-Live exercise a few years back (my thread is somewhere here on the forum). 

We grew up in the upper midwest -- Wisconsin/Iowa -- and lived there a long time as adults.  We were just done with the winters and the high taxes.  So we came up with our "must-haves" for our new location:  1.  Milder climate; 2.  Lower taxes and COL; 3.  More nature/trail access;  4.  Blue or purple state.  With help from the forum input we identified a handful of great places that ticked all our boxes and we visited them.  The winner was Asheville, NC.   We moved here and it has not disappointed; we love it.  The weather is excellent 10 to 11 months out of the year.  Real estate prices have skyrocketed since we bought, however, so it's a lot less affordable than it was five years ago.   

[Arbitrage]

We did this Where-To-Live exercise a few years back (my thread is somewhere here on the forum). 

We grew up in the upper midwest -- Wisconsin/Iowa -- and lived there a long time as adults.  We were just done with the winters and the high taxes.  So we came up with our "must-haves" for our new location:  1.  Milder climate; 2.  Lower taxes and COL; 3.  More nature/trail access;  4.  Blue or purple state.  With help from the forum input we identified a handful of great places that ticked all our boxes and we visited them.  The winner was Asheville, NC.   We moved here and it has not disappointed; we love it.  The weather is excellent 10 to 11 months out of the year.  Real estate prices have skyrocketed since we bought, however, so it's a lot less affordable than it was five years ago.

Nice!  Asheville was certainly a place we considered when planning our move, but it's just too hot for us from June - September.  Otherwise, it would've ticked a lot of boxes. 

[Trifle]

We did this Where-To-Live exercise a few years back (my thread is somewhere here on the forum). 

We grew up in the upper midwest -- Wisconsin/Iowa -- and lived there a long time as adults.  We were just done with the winters and the high taxes.  So we came up with our "must-haves" for our new location:  1.  Milder climate; 2.  Lower taxes and COL; 3.  More nature/trail access;  4.  Blue or purple state.  With help from the forum input we identified a handful of great places that ticked all our boxes and we visited them.  The winner was Asheville, NC.   We moved here and it has not disappointed; we love it.  The weather is excellent 10 to 11 months out of the year.  Real estate prices have skyrocketed since we bought, however, so it's a lot less affordable than it was five years ago.

Nice!  Asheville was certainly a place we considered when planning our move, but it's just too hot for us from June - September.  Otherwise, it would've ticked a lot of boxes.

Yeah, weather is definitely relative.  For us the summers are cooler and less humid than where we were living in the upper midwest.   

[mathlete]

We've had a week of tolerable weather here in Texas and now it doesn't seem so bad.

The more I think about it, the more "money is no object" really does a lot of lifting here. If money is no object, then there is the temptation to just pick the richest zipcode you can find. Obviously, people are paying a lot of money to live there, so it must be a pretty valuable (however you want to define value) place to live.

Living in San Francisco can be really cool, or abject misery depending upon how much of an "object" money is. Ditto for Appalachia. Do I live in a shrinking and economically depressed former coal town with bad roads? Or do I have a ranch in the mountains?

[Villanelle]

We've had a week of tolerable weather here in Texas and now it doesn't seem so bad.

The more I think about it, the more "money is no object" really does a lot of lifting here. If money is no object, then there is the temptation to just pick the richest zipcode you can find. Obviously, people are paying a lot of money to live there, so it must be a pretty valuable (however you want to define value) place to live.

Living in San Francisco can be really cool, or abject misery depending upon how much of an "object" money is. Ditto for Appalachia. Do I live in a shrinking and economically depressed former coal town with bad roads? Or do I have a ranch in the mountains?

Yeah, I definitely didn't intend this to be a "money is no object" conversation.  I think that needs to be factored into the pros and cons of a place.  In some ways, having lived largely in HCOL places, my meter for what is "expensive" has been calibrated higher than average.  And since we own in a H/VHCOL area (formerly our home, now a rental) and have seen significant appreciation at that price point, it helps us in being able to afford some more expensive cities.  I still wouldn't even consider SF or NYC, and it also rules out my dream location of Coronado, CA, but it makes cities like Denver look somewhat unremarkable, price-wise.

[mm1970]

A lot of these responses talk about moving towards cities as a positive place to live/change of location (NYC, etc.). Has anyone moved from a rural/semi-rural environment to a larger city and had positive experiences with it? Just curious if, as people have relocated, they have relocated to areas of similar population density or if they've jumped into an entirely different one and had a positive experience with it.

Long long ago and far away...
When I graduated from college, I moved to the DC area, inside the beltway.  I lived there for 5 years, all in Arlington, from Rosslyn to Crystal City/Pentagon City.
It was awesome.

I grew up in VERY rural NW PA, went to college in the 'burgh, which was at least a city.

I used the metro a lot, walked there from my apartments.  By the end, I was walking to work every morning - it was about a mile, almost all of it underground.  It was a great place to be in your 20s.  Many of my friends still live in the area.

[Cranky]

A lot of these responses talk about moving towards cities as a positive place to live/change of location (NYC, etc.). Has anyone moved from a rural/semi-rural environment to a larger city and had positive experiences with it? Just curious if, as people have relocated, they have relocated to areas of similar population density or if they've jumped into an entirely different one and had a positive experience with it.

I grew up in low-density outer-ring suburbia in the PNW, did undergrad in a pretty rural college town, and then grad school in Manhattan. Up until then I had always been very uncomfortable when visiting big cities, and I went to NYC somewhat begrudgingly in order to work with a specific professor. But my prior conception of big city life, based only on being a tourist, had been extremely misleading. I always felt anxious and uncomfortable as a tourist in cities, but actually living in NYC, I could settle in and get to know the neighborhoods I frequented at a more intimate level. I've since learned to appreciate other cities much more as a tourist, but there's really nothing like living there to get comfortable in a city. Since leaving NYC, I very much want to get back to dense urban living as soon as possible.

I would honestly go so far as to suggest basically all people should live in a big city for a couple years at some point in their life. There's a set of trade-offs from suburban/rural living, and I think status quo bias makes those trade-offs seem much worse when low-density living is all one has ever known. Private space is more scarce and therefore more expensive, so the same amount of money will get you a small apartment instead of a house with a yard... but in exchange you get much better public space. You don't get to drive and park your car wherever you want for free, but you can walk for basically any regular errands and have transit to reach destinations further away. You might need to feel slightly more cautious about watching your personal belongings in public, but you get to be in a vibrant, communal space where you feel connected to other people. I frankly think suburban living is associated with the atomization, loneliness, social anxiety, and general fear of other people that is becoming all too common in this country. I had to experience city living for myself in order to discover I'm actually just much happier when I spend time in a walkable city, in close contact with a lot of other people.

All the walking is great for overall health and happiness, compared to clown-car life. Also, financially speaking, being able to go fully car-free goes a long way towards compensating for higher cost of living in other categories. Frankly, MMM was a contributing factor to me considering the benefits to car-free urban life. And I think in this community, his emphasis on minimizing driving is one of the most oft-ignored tenet, because people rightfully say, "it's not safe/practical to walk/bike where I live." Well then, move somewhere it's safe and practical.

I would add that you don't have to live in a big city to get this. I'm currently hanging out in Edinburgh, UK in a neighborhood where almost nobody owns a car or drives. But it isn't a "big city," it only has ~500k residents. To bring this back on topic I would imagine that San Francisco, where I have visited in the past but not nearly as much, is similar (only ~875k residents).

And you can go much smaller and have that! My small (and frigid! LOL) has all that vibrant urban space if you like that kind of thing, but you can also drive almost anywhere in 10 or 15 minutes and the neighbors aren't right on top of you. Today alone I rode my bike to the grocery store and walked to the library, and I *still* have half an acre and some chickens. ;-)

[Just Joe]

Twice in my life I’ve lived in very rural areas, and then moved to an urban location. Both times the move was a huge QOL upgrade for us, even as our lodging expenses more than doubled.

We still love some aspects of rural living, which probably explains why we are now living in a very small town about 20 minutes from a medium city and 5 minutes from the nearest dairy farm. Unique spot where we get some of everything (including HCOL).

We've both done the big city thing. Maybe we've lived in the wrong cities or the wrong neighborhoods. Clearly more money helps and we were certainly poor when we gave the big city lifestyle our test drives. Neither of us felt it was the right place. Too crowded. Too loud. Too many people. We have a strong attachment to the natural world. We like the seasons, the animals, waterways, the trees, the plants and the dirt. We had deer in our front yard again this morning much to our dog's chagrin. Sounds of donkey's and cattle in the distance. All the bird sounds. The family of foxes that live in our woods.

I think we have an aversion to American car-centric cities and "stroads". NYC would be a very different place without all the cars and trucks. They should close every third street and make it bike and pedestrian only. More streetcars. More like a Dutch city.

We are really pleased where we live. Smallish prospering town in the south. We have a comfortable house on a large patch of ground. We have great jobs. There is a university here and a strong sense of community. Choose your friends wisely and there is an all inclusive sense of community here, that's who we spend time with. We aren't churchy folks. Around here much of the church crowd is invested in red state politics and never very LGBTQ+ friendly so we've left them behind. Some are downright ugly about it but we rarely witness this first hand.

However, as we are semi-introverts this is fine b/c all we need are a dozen friends that we see occasionally. Our social activities deliver plenty of people time for us. Anymore and we want to go home and recharge. Family, pets, hobbies, etc.

And that's just it - no matter where we lived or what the prevailing politics are or where on the "culture wars" spectrum a place might be - we'd probably have a dozen or so friends and try to live a similar lifestyle as we do now. A comfortable home in a safe place is very important to us. A ten minute country commute gets us to work or plenty of shopping or entertainment options. An hour or so gets us to the big cities for famous name entertainment, restaurants and shopping. Online shopping takes care of what we can't find or don't want to search for locally.

We both like parts of the PNW but our lifestyle wouldn't be nearly as comfortable if our income was similar. We've never visited the NE any further north than NYC but it looks/sounds good on "This Old House" anyhow. ;)

We enjoyed visiting Wisconsin and I really enjoyed a week I spent in Madison. I took my bike and rode everywhere after work. I think winter would not be fun however. Hawaii has always looked nice on TV but I think the COL would be challenging. Never Florida (did that), never Texas (did that too). The other southern states would require a local university nearby b/c it helps shapes the local flavor. There are many places in Europe that has appeal. I enjoyed living in Italy for example. Norway/Sweden/Finland/Netherlands/Germany/parts of the UK look appealing. Again having money helps.

[Just Joe]

I noticed I slept much better after moving from an isolated farm house to an apartment complex.  I just feel safer with people around I guess.

I'm just the opposite. Fewer people the better. ;)

[Just Joe]

While I miss walkability of urban areas and there is a tangible reduced risks of driving, I have found the spirit of the people of northern New England to be much more mustachian and frugal than the people I knew when I lived in cities. We all haul our trash/recycling to the transfer station Saturday mornings, solve a lot of issues during town meeting, heat with wood from our land, potluck parties are the norm, etc. my kids go back and see their friends in the more urban place we used to live and it’s all about consumption with those kids. I am glad we got away from it, even though we have to drive a bit more.

But this type of rural living seems to be very much based around the New England town setup. Our town is 1000 people but we have our own select board, town meeting, elementary schools, etc. neighbors need to cooperate to make it all work. Our form of government was very similar to Small Towns in England. I and I am  not sure you would get the same vibe in more rural counties in other parts of the country that were founded by more tribal and  skeptical Scotts. Also our town was 70% Biden in 2020

1st paragraph: same.
2nd paragraph: red state so different. The gov't meetings here are accessible though. Some of the politicians says typical red state things but support moderate policies.

[Just Joe]

We did this Where-To-Live exercise a few years back (my thread is somewhere here on the forum). 

We grew up in the upper midwest -- Wisconsin/Iowa -- and lived there a long time as adults.  We were just done with the winters and the high taxes.  So we came up with our "must-haves" for our new location:  1.  Milder climate; 2.  Lower taxes and COL; 3.  More nature/trail access;  4.  Blue or purple state.  With help from the forum input we identified a handful of great places that ticked all our boxes and we visited them.  The winner was Asheville, NC.   We moved here and it has not disappointed; we love it.  The weather is excellent 10 to 11 months out of the year.  Real estate prices have skyrocketed since we bought, however, so it's a lot less affordable than it was five years ago.

Nice!  Asheville was certainly a place we considered when planning our move, but it's just too hot for us from June - September.  Otherwise, it would've ticked a lot of boxes.

Yeah, weather is definitely relative.  For us the summers are cooler and less humid than where we were living in the upper midwest.

We like Asheville and have visited several times. Each visit gets better b/c we know our way around better.

[wenchsenior]

I noticed I slept much better after moving from an isolated farm house to an apartment complex.  I just feel safer with people around I guess.

I'm just the opposite. Fewer people the better. ;)

Absolutely. 

[Cranky]

From the time I've spent in big cities, I've concluded that I'm going to be interested in doing the same things whether I live in Manhattan or San Francisco or in the suburbs or in a rural area - go for walks, read, do projects, cook, spend time with family and friends. I'm not interested in most events (and there are plenty of those wherever you go, in my experience) so there's no advantage to urban life for me. It's just more inconvenient to get around.

[Jesstache]

We live in Bend, OR and absolutely love it.  Of course we bought a house way back when it was only kind of pricey (after housing crashed super hard here during the great recession) and our house has been paid off for a couple of years.  If we wanted to move here today, we likely could afford to, but the cost of housing would give us tremendous pause.  We love it here so much though.  Weather, outdoors, walkable, bikeable, family friendly, good schools, mountains, rivers, lakes, etc, etc, etc.

[Monocle Money Mouth]

I would like to live close to Redwood National Park and all the state redwood parks around it. I've taken vacations there a couple of times and loved the cool weather and old growth forests. I currently live in a suburb near Cleveland and we have a nice county wide park system called the Metroparks. The adjacent counties have similar park systems. They have picnic pavilions and baseball diamonds, but also have some mostly undisturbed forests with extensive trails. I try to visit a park weekly.

Ohio forests are a let down after visiting a redwood forest. We have nice forests if you know where to look, but they're not nice in absolute terms. They're just nice for Ohio. It would be nice live some place where the nearby parks have old growth redwood forests.

Practically, I don't know if I could afford to live in California. The cost of living is still higher than the midwest. I don't want to contribute to overburdening utilities and water supplies that are already struggling to keep up with demand. I'm also not sure if I want to deal with the threat of wildfires either. California would be my destination if money were no object and I could afford to abandon it at the drop of a hat.

[startingsmall]

But this type of rural living seems to be very much based around the New England town setup. Our town is 1000 people but we have our own select board, town meeting, elementary schools, etc. neighbors need to cooperate to make it all work. Our form of government was very similar to Small Towns in England. I and I am  not sure you would get the same vibe in more rural counties in other parts of the country that were founded by more tribal and  skeptical Scotts. Also our town was 70% Biden in 2020

This is an interesting assessment. I lived in two small towns in North Carolina, and really disliked both towns both due to dramatic fear of "the other"... racism, xenophobia, skepticism of people who moved there from other locations (I heard a lot of "you ain't from around here," despite 15 years in that approximate area), hostility towards education and the educated, etc. I think I could enjoy a small town in theory, but NC small towns definitely were NOT the right small towns for me!

I haven't spent any considerable time in New England, but the small towns up there definitely sound infinitely more civilized, friendly, and appealing. Unfortunately, I grew up in Florida and have low tolerance for prolonged, dark winters and extreme cold. I've never consider English vs. Scottish influences and how they relate to North vs. South issues, but that's an interesting idea!

We'd love to move from our current town in Florida (it's very... umm... "aggressive," for lack of a better word, and has a reputation in our area for being pretty trashy/rednecky), but we're struggling to decide where to go. Our family is all in FL, NC, and SC and my husband is a big family guy, so he doesn't want to go any further north than NC. Leading contenders right now are Raleigh/Durham or Wilmington, but I have some reservations. 

[ender]

This is interesting for me because my wife and I are basically wondering this exact question.

I have been remote now for several years and see myself staying remote. And all the constraints drawing us to our current house have changed.

It's hard though because what we want is a largerish acreage (5+ acres) but also not too far in the middle of nowhere. And in the upper midwest, if you don't want crazy winters like northern MN/WI get, that's reasonably expensive.

But... the concrete mania of bigger cities, even for us in a suburb, feels almost oppressive to me. Being out in nature more is so much more peaceful.

[jrhampt]

But this type of rural living seems to be very much based around the New England town setup. Our town is 1000 people but we have our own select board, town meeting, elementary schools, etc. neighbors need to cooperate to make it all work. Our form of government was very similar to Small Towns in England. I and I am  not sure you would get the same vibe in more rural counties in other parts of the country that were founded by more tribal and  skeptical Scotts. Also our town was 70% Biden in 2020

This is an interesting assessment. I lived in two small towns in North Carolina, and really disliked both towns both due to dramatic fear of "the other"... racism, xenophobia, skepticism of people who moved there from other locations (I heard a lot of "you ain't from around here," despite 15 years in that approximate area), hostility towards education and the educated, etc. I think I could enjoy a small town in theory, but NC small towns definitely were NOT the right small towns for me!

I haven't spent any considerable time in New England, but the small towns up there definitely sound infinitely more civilized, friendly, and appealing. Unfortunately, I grew up in Florida and have low tolerance for prolonged, dark winters and extreme cold. I've never consider English vs. Scottish influences and how they relate to North vs. South issues, but that's an interesting idea!

We'd love to move from our current town in Florida (it's very... umm... "aggressive," for lack of a better word, and has a reputation in our area for being pretty trashy/rednecky), but we're struggling to decide where to go. Our family is all in FL, NC, and SC and my husband is a big family guy, so he doesn't want to go any further north than NC. Leading contenders right now are Raleigh/Durham or Wilmington, but I have some reservations.

I have a friend who moved from NE to Wilmington, and I've been down to visit a couple of times.  It's a great small waterfront town with good restaurants and could be very walkable if you lived near the historic neighborhoods downtown.  It's way too hot/humid for me in the summers, but otherwise I like it.  Needs more bike trails though.

[Arbitrage]

We live in Bend, OR and absolutely love it.  Of course we bought a house way back when it was only kind of pricey (after housing crashed super hard here during the great recession) and our house has been paid off for a couple of years.  If we wanted to move here today, we likely could afford to, but the cost of housing would give us tremendous pause.  We love it here so much though.  Weather, outdoors, walkable, bikeable, family friendly, good schools, mountains, rivers, lakes, etc, etc, etc.

Bend was #2 on our list.  Visited and loved the town.  Definitely more of a "tourist town" feel than Bellingham, for better or worse.  The weather wouldn't have been as good for our family's particular needs, though, and the isolation was another con.  Though I don't want to live in a large city anymore, sometimes it's handy to have one (or two) just a short drive away, especially if you've got family living there. 

I'm sure I would've been perfectly happy to live in Bend, but it wouldn't have worked as well for the rest of my family.

[RetiredAt63]

But this type of rural living seems to be very much based around the New England town setup. Our town is 1000 people but we have our own select board, town meeting, elementary schools, etc. neighbors need to cooperate to make it all work. Our form of government was very similar to Small Towns in England. I and I am  not sure you would get the same vibe in more rural counties in other parts of the country that were founded by more tribal and  skeptical Scotts. Also our town was 70% Biden in 2020

This is an interesting assessment. I lived in two small towns in North Carolina, and really disliked both towns both due to dramatic fear of "the other"... racism, xenophobia, skepticism of people who moved there from other locations (I heard a lot of "you ain't from around here," despite 15 years in that approximate area), hostility towards education and the educated, etc. I think I could enjoy a small town in theory, but NC small towns definitely were NOT the right small towns for me!

I haven't spent any considerable time in New England, but the small towns up there definitely sound infinitely more civilized, friendly, and appealing. Unfortunately, I grew up in Florida and have low tolerance for prolonged, dark winters and extreme cold. I've never consider English vs. Scottish influences and how they relate to North vs. South issues, but that's an interesting idea!

We'd love to move from our current town in Florida (it's very... umm... "aggressive," for lack of a better word, and has a reputation in our area for being pretty trashy/rednecky), but we're struggling to decide where to go. Our family is all in FL, NC, and SC and my husband is a big family guy, so he doesn't want to go any further north than NC. Leading contenders right now are Raleigh/Durham or Wilmington, but I have some reservations.

Hmm, I have lived in or have family from Ontario, Quebec, Nova Scotia and New Brunswick, so more north (another country even) than the areas you are talking about.  Areas of Scottish/Irish/French settlement.  All have very long settlement histories, and small towns tend to be hard to assimilate into.  I suspect it may be more of a case of "everyone else has been here for many generations, half the streets are named after us, 15 years is nothing".

[Just Joe]

But this type of rural living seems to be very much based around the New England town setup. Our town is 1000 people but we have our own select board, town meeting, elementary schools, etc. neighbors need to cooperate to make it all work. Our form of government was very similar to Small Towns in England. I and I am  not sure you would get the same vibe in more rural counties in other parts of the country that were founded by more tribal and  skeptical Scotts. Also our town was 70% Biden in 2020

This is an interesting assessment. I lived in two small towns in North Carolina, and really disliked both towns both due to dramatic fear of "the other"... racism, xenophobia, skepticism of people who moved there from other locations (I heard a lot of "you ain't from around here," despite 15 years in that approximate area), hostility towards education and the educated, etc. I think I could enjoy a small town in theory, but NC small towns definitely were NOT the right small towns for me!

I haven't spent any considerable time in New England, but the small towns up there definitely sound infinitely more civilized, friendly, and appealing. Unfortunately, I grew up in Florida and have low tolerance for prolonged, dark winters and extreme cold. I've never consider English vs. Scottish influences and how they relate to North vs. South issues, but that's an interesting idea!

We'd love to move from our current town in Florida (it's very... umm... "aggressive," for lack of a better word, and has a reputation in our area for being pretty trashy/rednecky), but we're struggling to decide where to go. Our family is all in FL, NC, and SC and my husband is a big family guy, so he doesn't want to go any further north than NC. Leading contenders right now are Raleigh/Durham or Wilmington, but I have some reservations.

Friend left Wilmington at least partially b/c of fire ants and hurricanes. I find that a local university helps the local culture. Larger group of educated folks to develop a friendship circle from. Dilutes any bad influences who are not receptive to newcomers and new ideas.

[Kris]

But this type of rural living seems to be very much based around the New England town setup. Our town is 1000 people but we have our own select board, town meeting, elementary schools, etc. neighbors need to cooperate to make it all work. Our form of government was very similar to Small Towns in England. I and I am  not sure you would get the same vibe in more rural counties in other parts of the country that were founded by more tribal and  skeptical Scotts. Also our town was 70% Biden in 2020

This is an interesting assessment. I lived in two small towns in North Carolina, and really disliked both towns both due to dramatic fear of "the other"... racism, xenophobia, skepticism of people who moved there from other locations (I heard a lot of "you ain't from around here," despite 15 years in that approximate area), hostility towards education and the educated, etc. I think I could enjoy a small town in theory, but NC small towns definitely were NOT the right small towns for me!

I haven't spent any considerable time in New England, but the small towns up there definitely sound infinitely more civilized, friendly, and appealing. Unfortunately, I grew up in Florida and have low tolerance for prolonged, dark winters and extreme cold. I've never consider English vs. Scottish influences and how they relate to North vs. South issues, but that's an interesting idea!

We'd love to move from our current town in Florida (it's very... umm... "aggressive," for lack of a better word, and has a reputation in our area for being pretty trashy/rednecky), but we're struggling to decide where to go. Our family is all in FL, NC, and SC and my husband is a big family guy, so he doesn't want to go any further north than NC. Leading contenders right now are Raleigh/Durham or Wilmington, but I have some reservations.

Friend left Wilmington at least partially b/c of fire ants and hurricanes. I find that a local university helps the local culture. Larger group of educated folks to develop a friendship circle from. Dilutes any bad influences who are not receptive to newcomers and new ideas.

Back in the day, I was a finalist for a tenure-track position at UNCW. It was the hurricanes that made me decide the location probably wouldn't be a good fit. And that was back in the late nineties. These days, no way in hell would I choose to live in a place where hurricanes occurred semi-regularly.

[startingsmall]

But this type of rural living seems to be very much based around the New England town setup. Our town is 1000 people but we have our own select board, town meeting, elementary schools, etc. neighbors need to cooperate to make it all work. Our form of government was very similar to Small Towns in England. I and I am  not sure you would get the same vibe in more rural counties in other parts of the country that were founded by more tribal and  skeptical Scotts. Also our town was 70% Biden in 2020

This is an interesting assessment. I lived in two small towns in North Carolina, and really disliked both towns both due to dramatic fear of "the other"... racism, xenophobia, skepticism of people who moved there from other locations (I heard a lot of "you ain't from around here," despite 15 years in that approximate area), hostility towards education and the educated, etc. I think I could enjoy a small town in theory, but NC small towns definitely were NOT the right small towns for me!

I haven't spent any considerable time in New England, but the small towns up there definitely sound infinitely more civilized, friendly, and appealing. Unfortunately, I grew up in Florida and have low tolerance for prolonged, dark winters and extreme cold. I've never consider English vs. Scottish influences and how they relate to North vs. South issues, but that's an interesting idea!

We'd love to move from our current town in Florida (it's very... umm... "aggressive," for lack of a better word, and has a reputation in our area for being pretty trashy/rednecky), but we're struggling to decide where to go. Our family is all in FL, NC, and SC and my husband is a big family guy, so he doesn't want to go any further north than NC. Leading contenders right now are Raleigh/Durham or Wilmington, but I have some reservations.

Friend left Wilmington at least partially b/c of fire ants and hurricanes. I find that a local university helps the local culture. Larger group of educated folks to develop a friendship circle from. Dilutes any bad influences who are not receptive to newcomers and new ideas.

Ha! Clearly, fire ants and hurricanes don't deter me! (They probably should, but I love the coast and saltwater kayaking too much to live very far inland.)

I feel like the college town atmosphere would be a big help help. I currently have a digital subscription to their local newspaper and while the area as a whole still appears a bit more conservative/segregated than I'd prefer, it doesn't seem too bad. I have a friend who recently moved there, so we're looking forward to seeing how her experience goes over the next few years!

[Michael in ABQ]

But this type of rural living seems to be very much based around the New England town setup. Our town is 1000 people but we have our own select board, town meeting, elementary schools, etc. neighbors need to cooperate to make it all work. Our form of government was very similar to Small Towns in England. I and I am  not sure you would get the same vibe in more rural counties in other parts of the country that were founded by more tribal and  skeptical Scotts. Also our town was 70% Biden in 2020

This is an interesting assessment. I lived in two small towns in North Carolina, and really disliked both towns both due to dramatic fear of "the other"... racism, xenophobia, skepticism of people who moved there from other locations (I heard a lot of "you ain't from around here," despite 15 years in that approximate area), hostility towards education and the educated, etc. I think I could enjoy a small town in theory, but NC small towns definitely were NOT the right small towns for me!

I haven't spent any considerable time in New England, but the small towns up there definitely sound infinitely more civilized, friendly, and appealing. Unfortunately, I grew up in Florida and have low tolerance for prolonged, dark winters and extreme cold. I've never consider English vs. Scottish influences and how they relate to North vs. South issues, but that's an interesting idea!

We'd love to move from our current town in Florida (it's very... umm... "aggressive," for lack of a better word, and has a reputation in our area for being pretty trashy/rednecky), but we're struggling to decide where to go. Our family is all in FL, NC, and SC and my husband is a big family guy, so he doesn't want to go any further north than NC. Leading contenders right now are Raleigh/Durham or Wilmington, but I have some reservations.

It's several years old now but I strongly recommend the book American Nations by Colin Woodward - https://colinwoodard.com/books/american-nations/.
Here's a good summary that includes a county-level map - https://www.businessinsider.com/the-11-nations-of-the-united-states-2015-7

It's all about how the early settlement patterns dating back to the 1600 and 1700s produced multiple different nations within the US. It's not just the north/south divide, it's the difference between New England, the Deep South, Appalachia, the Far West, etc. The deep south was founded by wealthy English slave owners from Barbados and other islands in the Caribbean when they ran out of room. They brought a very different culture than just a few hundred miles northwest in Appalachia where it was mostly founded by Scots Irish immigrants from the borderlands of the English empire. Both groups make up what is traditionally considered the South, but the culture in South Carolina is going to be very different than eastern Tennesse even though they may be fairly close geographically.

I've spent most of my life in the Far West and that's definitely where I feel most comfortable. Anything east of the Mississippi seems very unappealing - both from a cultural perspective and a climate perspective (screw humidity).

[startingsmall]

But this type of rural living seems to be very much based around the New England town setup. Our town is 1000 people but we have our own select board, town meeting, elementary schools, etc. neighbors need to cooperate to make it all work. Our form of government was very similar to Small Towns in England. I and I am  not sure you would get the same vibe in more rural counties in other parts of the country that were founded by more tribal and  skeptical Scotts. Also our town was 70% Biden in 2020

This is an interesting assessment. I lived in two small towns in North Carolina, and really disliked both towns both due to dramatic fear of "the other"... racism, xenophobia, skepticism of people who moved there from other locations (I heard a lot of "you ain't from around here," despite 15 years in that approximate area), hostility towards education and the educated, etc. I think I could enjoy a small town in theory, but NC small towns definitely were NOT the right small towns for me!

I haven't spent any considerable time in New England, but the small towns up there definitely sound infinitely more civilized, friendly, and appealing. Unfortunately, I grew up in Florida and have low tolerance for prolonged, dark winters and extreme cold. I've never consider English vs. Scottish influences and how they relate to North vs. South issues, but that's an interesting idea!

We'd love to move from our current town in Florida (it's very... umm... "aggressive," for lack of a better word, and has a reputation in our area for being pretty trashy/rednecky), but we're struggling to decide where to go. Our family is all in FL, NC, and SC and my husband is a big family guy, so he doesn't want to go any further north than NC. Leading contenders right now are Raleigh/Durham or Wilmington, but I have some reservations.

It's several years old now but I strongly recommend the book American Nations by Colin Woodward - https://colinwoodard.com/books/american-nations/.
Here's a good summary that includes a county-level map - https://www.businessinsider.com/the-11-nations-of-the-united-states-2015-7

It's all about how the early settlement patterns dating back to the 1600 and 1700s produced multiple different nations within the US. It's not just the north/south divide, it's the difference between New England, the Deep South, Appalachia, the Far West, etc. The deep south was founded by wealthy English slave owners from Barbados and other islands in the Caribbean when they ran out of room. They brought a very different culture than just a few hundred miles northwest in Appalachia where it was mostly founded by Scots Irish immigrants from the borderlands of the English empire. Both groups make up what is traditionally considered the South, but the culture in South Carolina is going to be very different than eastern Tennesse even though they may be fairly close geographically.

I've spent most of my life in the Far West and that's definitely where I feel most comfortable. Anything east of the Mississippi seems very unappealing - both from a cultural perspective and a climate perspective (screw humidity).

Thanks for the recommendation... I just added that book to my library holds list!! I'm currently in part of the Spanish Caribbean, and my small-town NC experiences were in Greater Appalachia. Looking forward to some helpful insights in the book, hopefully.