How to choose where to live?

[4tify]

Any recommendations on how to choose a place to live post-RE?

I have lived in major cities my whole life and am interested in potentially relocating now that I'm not dependent on location for w*rk. What factors did you take into consideration? Prior to covid I was a bit spoiled on food in particular, so that's one area I'd like to optimize. Also easy access to outdoor activities (hiking, etc). And since we plan to travel a few times per year we need access to an airport...what else?

We don't have kids so that's not a consideration.

Thanks!

[Rubyvroom]

Climate change unfortunately was our major consideration. We live in Minnesota in the U.S. and thought about moving after FIRE but decided to stay where we were due to an abundance of water and being outside of most natural disaster zones. There is a pretty decent summary on considerations when determining where to live in "How to Prepare for Climate Change" by David Pogue. Learned some things about Alaska that I had never thought about in that chapter... in summary, holy crap don't move to Alaska. D:

That said, the only other places that drew us were the Southwest (New Mexico specifically) and mountainous regions (Colorado specifically), both places with amazing food so I hear ya there, but in the end we decided we liked water and didn't like fires so we just visit those places now.

[mrsnamemustache]

For most people, myself included, preferred weather would be useful for selecting region. And cultural climate.

[Moustachienne]

You might find some of the observations in this interview with Melody Warnick about her book This Is Where You Belong: The Art and Science of Loving the Place You Live helpful or at least interesting. She discusses both learning to appreciate where you live and what to think about in choosing somewhere else, e.g. LCOL isn't everything.  I read the book a few years ago and enjoyed it.
https://livability.com/topics/love-where-you-live/how-to-love-where-you-live-no-matter-where-you-live/

The Livability website seems to be devoted to your exact question. :) https://livability.com/

[Linea_Norway]

We are also moving elsewhere, but in another country. Things to consider for us are:
- driving distance from our cabin. This is a large factor.
- close to the coast, but high enough in terrain to avoid flooding at extreme floods
- proximity to a reasonably sized town, hospital, airport, etc
- easy access to local grocery shop, library etc
- prepated for climate issues, enough rain (but maybe the already wet areas will become wetter), no landslides, etc
- no stone quarries or other human noise in the direct vicinity
- nice view
- forest in vicinity

[FLBiker]

We made a big move ~2 years ago (Tampa FL to the Annapolis Valley in Nova Scotia).  We moved from a big city to a small town (~30K people in this town and the surrounding towns).  Here are the things we thought about, with the huge caveat that it is different for everyone.

• Ambient culture - This may have been the number 1 factor.  While we certainly had a niche that we liked in Tampa, the ambient culture (from our POV) sucked.  It was very much a driving / consumer culture.  You'd see extreme political t-shirts and bumper stickers all the time.  We lived near the fairgrounds, and there were constantly gun shows going on.  I didn't realize how much that took out of me until I was no longer in it.  We went back to the US last month (Rhode Island) and I was shocked by how angry everyone seemed all the time.
• Walkable - I can walk "downtown" in ~15 minutes, where there is a hardware store, hospital, post office, grocery store, etc.
• Convenient - In addition to the above, the next town over (~5-10 minute drive) has multiple big box stores (Walmart, home depot, staples, etc.).  Also, as we are inexperienced in both small town living and winter, we did NOT want to be responsible for our own well, plowing a long driveway, etc.  So we wanted to be on municipal services, which has been great.
• Less pollution / traffic / crime
• Better positioned for climate change - less prone to flooding, hurricanes, relatively near the coast to help moderate extreme temperatures, in a country that believes in climate change
• Close to nature / outdoor activities
• Decent schools for our daughter - pros: French immersion, no active shooter drills, very little standardized testing; cons: not a lot of support for gifted education
• Reasonable cost of living - BC seems nice, but too expensive for us
• Reasonably close to an airport - ~1.25 hours from Halifax
• Activities - Our town is VERY proactive with activities -- lots of recreational activities, games, performances, etc.  It's all pretty low-key, but there is plenty to do and it really builds the community feeling.

Things that weren't important to us:

• Restaurants - Restaurants are more expensive up here, so we don't go out to eat as much as we did in Tampa.  Probably once or twice a month now vs. once or twice a week before.  That said, there are several really good ones within 15-20 minutes of us.
• Bars / Night life - We don't drink.
• "Big" cultural activities - we have lots of live music and some live theater, but it's all pretty low key.  At the same time, we actually have a really amazing theater group about 30 minutes away (Ross Creek).  We just have tiny local museums, and we don't have any big sports (although Acadia University is fairly close).  For us, that's fine.  We like to do all that stuff sometimes, but it doesn't need to be the biggest and the best.
• Avoiding winter - Obviously, we moved from Florida to Canada, which seems crazy to a lot of people.  For us, though, we actually prefer the weather here.  Having four seasons is awesome, and each one has it's own benefits.  I love the freshness that the changes in seasons bring.  I also feel like some discomfort is good for us -- my goal isn't to be 100% comfortable all the time.  I like having to shovel snow, haul in bags of pellets for the pellet stove, etc.  All that being said, we do live in town, which means the roads are well plowed.  We also have a garage, which is great in the winter (and less common up here than you might think).  And I work from home (and DW teaches) so snow days aren't a big deal.
• Taxes - Yes, taxes are higher here but I do feel like you kind of get what you pay for.  We don't need to worry about health insurance in early retirement, for example.  Plus, we're quite close to FI, so earning / saving as much as possible isn't a priority.  And in early retirement I expect our income will be relatively low.
• Health care - having "free" health care is great, but there is a real doctor shortage, so getting a family doctor can take a long time (almost two years and counting for us).  COVID didn't help.  At the same time, clinics and the ER are very accessible.  We definitely had better access in Tampa (with great insurance through our work) but that was entirely conditional on our continued employment (and continued employment isn't our goal).  If we had major conditions that required ongoing care, we might have been more hesitant about moving here (knowing we'd have to wait a while to get a doctor).

[Sandi_k]

For us, there were a lot of factors:

- Weather. No snow, ever.
- Access to water for boating.
- Within an hour of a Southwest airport route.
- Medical care - reasonable infrastructure, ER, doctors.
- University town nearby, as that includes book stores, theater, music, college games, restaurants.

[Watchmaker]

We used similar criteria to what other people have said:

-Cultural fit
-Weather
-Climate Change Risk
-Affordability
-Healthcare
-Access to arts
-Walkability
-Access to an airport

It just so happened when we looked at where we were living it met those criteria as well as anyplace we could think of, so we are staying put.

If you do move somewhere new, I highly recommend not buying a house until you've been there at least a year and and are certain you will stay. I'll also add that, while there are obviously good and bad places to live, a lot of your enjoyment of a place will come down to choices you make once you are there.

[reeshau]

I see a lot of *what* to look for, but @4tify , you asked for *how*.

The biggest tip I can say is, spend some time in your target place(s) before you commit long-term.  Spend a month, or 3.  More than once.  And not just in the best of times, but in the off- / hot- / cold- / rainy seasons.  No place is perfect.  If you can manage the worst of it, you will love the best of it.  Ideally, you could be patient enough to make this your goal for the first year or two of retirement, since you'll be decompressing / decluttering, anyway.

If you can't wait that long, then focus what vacation time you do have in the years leading up to it.  And for heaven's sake, don't stay in a hotel!  Try to find the least touristy place you can, and stay in that neighborhood, either at an AirBnB or a monthly rental.  That might be easier to do that you think in the "off" season, as there are probably a number of people who want to leave, and might even pay you to house sit.

We've ended up in Houston more for family than for our dreams--sandwich generation time.  But we are happy to be here for the next decade or two, and will be looking out for what's next in the meantime.

[joe189man]

A suggestion for the How - create a list of your desired criteria, like weather, cultural climate, proximity to costco, etc.
then create a matrix in excel where you have rows with your desired criteria, and columns with the locations. Rank the locations based upon that criteria 1 to N
for each criteria give it a "weighting" factor like weather is 30% and cultural climate is 15%, and proximity to costco is 30%. Vary the weighting factors for all desired criteria, have the sum or total of the weighting factors = 100%

then do a weighted analysis of your criteria and rankings, a google search should help you find examples in excel or similar software

this way you can play with the weighting factors to see how changing a desired criteria affects the results, maybe costco is 50% and weather is 10%, cultural climate is 40% for example

We do something similar in my job when analyzing alternatives

[Kris]

Climate change unfortunately was our major consideration. We live in Minnesota in the U.S. and thought about moving after FIRE but decided to stay where we were due to an abundance of water and being outside of most natural disaster zones. There is a pretty decent summary on considerations when determining where to live in "How to Prepare for Climate Change" by David Pogue. Learned some things about Alaska that I had never thought about in that chapter... in summary, holy crap don't move to Alaska. D:

That said, the only other places that drew us were the Southwest (New Mexico specifically) and mountainous regions (Colorado specifically), both places with amazing food so I hear ya there, but in the end we decided we liked water and didn't like fires so we just visit those places now.

Fellow Minnesotan here, and we came to similar conclusions.

[infromsea]

Some great advice already here so I'll just add my experience:

Wife and I bought a great little place in a wonderful neighborhood that was perfect for:
- Kids and school (great school systems)
- Proximity to everything (she goes one way to work, I went the other way), grocery store/auto repair/home store/couple restaurants all close, only thing "missing" is a quality bar and grill (we like to go out and watch a game or two with groups vice alone at home)
- Mature trees/nice size lots etc...

THE PROBLEM
I've retired (a couple of times now) and have found that this is NOT a good neighborhood for retiring folks (I feel bad for another retired Sailor who lives on the corner, he's 100% retired and older, NOT a good idea).

The issue is that this is a GREAT "working neighborhood". Got kids, work all the time, need access to food on the way home/auto repair drop offs on your way etc... then this place works. Once retired though, you quickly realize:
- While the lots are bigger, they get small quick when you are home everyday and you can't expand as much as you might want (I want a gym/a woodshop/a sauna in the backyard, no room for any of them)
- The walk-ability is OK BUT, to walk/run/bike on the "main drag" which has a walk path, you will deal with a LOT of traffic, trying to get a quiet run requires running/walking super early or walking in the neighborhood (which isn't bad but has gotten SMALL over 15 years).
- The road/city noise is too loud here, this is super site specific, but something to keep in mind

Another very specific location thing is that leaving the Hampton Roads area almost always involves a bridge or tunnel, making it a true pain to leave ANY Friday from 1-9 PM or randomly (traffic here... sooooo random and almost always frustrating).

Bottom line, NOT a "retire to" area, maybe some INTEL there that could help.

Also, look for a reddit in the areas you are considering, there is one for my area and we discuss almost all of the above.

Good luck!

[FLBiker]

Re: how -- we may just have been extremely lucky, but we really just trusted our gut (rather than spending a lot of time in the place).

My wife came to the town for a conference (about 1.5 days) and absolutely loved it.  Then we came to Nova Scotia for a week, and visited 4 different potential areas.  We both loved the area that my wife initially loved, although we only spent about 3 hours there on that trip.  We planned to come up to househunt but then COVID happened and we bought a house completely sight unseen (FaceTime only).  Granted, we were also lucky, but we also trusted our guts (about the place, about our realtor, etc.).  If we would have waited to buy after renting for a year, we would have been buying into the teeth of a VERY hot housing market.  As it was, we bought right before it got crazy.

I'm not saying this because I recommend buying a house in a place you've only briefly visited, but just to make the point that (in some cases) first impressions can tell you everything you really need to know.  We've been here almost 2 years now and love it.

[4tify]

Thanks everyone, this is really helpful. So interesting that so many of you are considering climate change.

@Rubyvroom I'll check out the Pogue book thanks!

@Moustachienne Livability.com is awesome, thanks!

@FLBiker how did you manage to move to Canada? Are you a US citizen?

@reeshau your point about long term stays is well taken!

@spartana I agree that getting things right is more important than cost necessarily. There are a lot of LCOL places out there that I know I wouldn't be happy in! Good luck with your adventure. Sounds fun :)

[MMMarbleheader]

We moved to the VT/NH border called the upper valley, near Dartmouth college and live in the VT side. We love the balance between rural and (somewhat) urban. It’s pretty easy to be frugal here as people have been living that way for so long. The old anecdote of why the hippies and old Yankees got along was because what the hippies were doing (farming, hearing with wood, not buying things) is what the old Yankees had been doing since forever.

On my wife’s birthday I picked up Korean/sushi in Hanover,NH then drove to a sheep farm in VT to get a trash bag full of unprocessed wool for her to spin, forgot to get directions back home because I didn’t have service, got stuck in a snow squal, and had to ask some random guy for directions who when finding out it was my wife’s birthday gave be a bottle of his cider. Got hope and said yup, moved to the right place.

[former player]

One important factor to consider that only spartana has mentioned so far is family.  You may want (or need) to be either closer to or further away from certain family members and that decision may change over time.

Something that hasn't been mentioned but could come under the heading "climate change" is that if you are talking FIRE then you may be looking at several decades of retirement, and I wouldn't bet on travel, particularly air travel, being so available and so cheap in ten or twenty or thirty or forty years' time.  So if you are thinking "we can live in place X and fly to place Y regularly to see family" then you might want to think again.

[blue_green_sparks]

We moved to the VT/NH border called the upper valley, near Dartmouth college and live in the VT side. We love the balance between rural and (somewhat) urban. It’s pretty easy to be frugal here as people have been living that way for so long. The old anecdote of why the hippies and old Yankees got along was because what the hippies were doing (farming, hearing with wood, not buying things) is what the old Yankees had been doing since forever.

On my wife’s birthday I picked up Korean/sushi in Hanover,NH then drove to a sheep farm in VT to get a trash bag full of unprocessed wool for her to spin, forgot to get directions back home because I didn’t have service, got stuck in a snow squal, and had to ask some random guy for directions who when finding out it was my wife’s birthday gave be a bottle of his cider. Got hope and said yup, moved to the right place.

Lucky you! My dream relocation place is the NEK, a secluded cabin on 10 or more acres. However, my sweetheart is a thin blooded Florida girl, so I am looking forward to fall vacations there.

[4tify]

We moved to the VT/NH border called the upper valley, near Dartmouth college and live in the VT side. We love the balance between rural and (somewhat) urban. It’s pretty easy to be frugal here as people have been living that way for so long. The old anecdote of why the hippies and old Yankees got along was because what the hippies were doing (farming, hearing with wood, not buying things) is what the old Yankees had been doing since forever.

On my wife’s birthday I picked up Korean/sushi in Hanover,NH then drove to a sheep farm in VT to get a trash bag full of unprocessed wool for her to spin, forgot to get directions back home because I didn’t have service, got stuck in a snow squal, and had to ask some random guy for directions who when finding out it was my wife’s birthday gave be a bottle of his cider. Got hope and said yup, moved to the right place.

This sounds amazing. We have rented an AirBnB in the fall in Portland ME to use as a base to explore the NE. Looking forward to it! Sounds like you found a good solution.

One important factor to consider that only spartana has mentioned so far is family.  You may want (or need) to be either closer to or further away from certain family members and that decision may change over time.

Something that hasn't been mentioned but could come under the heading "climate change" is that if you are talking FIRE then you may be looking at several decades of retirement, and I wouldn't bet on travel, particularly air travel, being so available and so cheap in ten or twenty or thirty or forty years' time.  So if you are thinking "we can live in place X and fly to place Y regularly to see family" then you might want to think again.

Good point thank you.

[Car Jack]

This is a topic DW and I have addressed for literally decades.  I used to travel for my job extensively, so could rule out certain places just from my time in them.  We started taking vacations in places that rated tops on our list.  We made sure we visited in the worst weather part of the year because....well....Ft. Myers Florida in February for us New Englanders fighting an ice storm to get to the airport would just be unfair. 

We learned a lot by doing this.  Ft. Myers was actually one of our choices.  We went down in August.  Found that we wanted very little to be outdoors until it was dark and cooler.  We were impressed, but not in a good way that one of my sons and I coming in from parasailing, heard lightning warnings and headed out of there.  Later saw on the news that it struck 100 feet from where my wife and other son were set up.  3 people killed.  Great.  Yah, I know, I shouldn't judge Ft Myers for this.  The heat is what got me.  I soon learned by paying attention that any temp over 70 was too high for me.  Easy to rule out where I had employers over the years in Arizona and Dallas. 

Various places in California seemed pretty nice.  San Diego, Thousand Oaks,  Carlsbad.  I guess the cost, small lots and potential hot summers pushed that away. 

We had our honeymoon in Hawaii and the weather was perfect.  Cost is high but it does seem like it could be great.  I suppose the wife's concern that the kids and everyone we know would be an expensive plane ride away makes that tough.  I don't know what 20 acres of forest (I don't know if you even call it forest in Hawaii) with a single house costs.  I sort of assume a lot.

So we have settled on staying where we are.  We live one marathon west of Boston.  On a bit over 13 acres of native forest that I forest manage to save on taxes and get our own firewood and get in the woods a lot.  Every year is another form of wildlife taking stage.  This year, we have a Barred Owl nest and the parents' calls are awesome and we do see them both perching and flying pretty often.  Pileated woodpeckers are all over.  I call them pterodactyls because at about 18 inches, that's what they look like.  Our cats watch the crows and growl at them from inside.  Our house is over 800 feet from the road so now that the leaves have come out, we can't see any houses, which I like.  Yah, taxes can be relatively high, but we choose to live here and property taxes can't go up much unless the town specifically votes to raise them for a specific project like buying a fire engine or redoing the soccer fields (both on the ballot last week). 

[FINate]

A couple of things to think about that haven't been mentioned:

Neighborhood: People often focus on the city, and that's all well and good because you can't fix a city that's not a good fit. But you also need to consider the neighborhood. When we were looking to move a few years ago we thought about staying in the greater Bay Area to remain closer to family, and we could have made this work. But it was also apparent that doing so would mean living in a nondescrip cookie-cutter neighborhood filled with cul-de-sacs with no decent amenities withing biking/walking distance. Whereas for less money we could buy in a charming inner ring neighborhood in Boise that's laid out on a grid within easy biking/walking distance to over 20 eateries, parks, and a 5 minute bike ride to downtown, plus 5 minutes to hiking/biking trails and the river. Our neighborhood is very quite, with no stroads (big multi-lane arterial roads). We wouldn't love it here nearly as much if we lived out in one of the far flung suburbs.

Distinctness: I learned this from one of MMM's posts and found it useful. Pick a city that is its own distinct thing and not just a suburb for for a larger metro. A city that is distinct from other cities is way more likely to have stuff that makes urban life fun and interesting rather than just a place people sleep at night. The Boise area isn't all that large, but the next biggest cities are Salt Lake City (350 miles) and Portland (450 miles), so Boise punches above it's weight in dining, services, etc.

[infromsea]

A couple of things to think about that haven't been mentioned:

Neighborhood: People often focus on the city, and that's all well and good because you can't fix a city that's not a good fit. But you also need to consider the neighborhood.
Distinctness: I learned this from one of MMM's posts and found it useful. Pick a city that is its own distinct thing and not just a suburb for for a larger metro. A city that is distinct from other cities is way more likely to have stuff that makes urban life fun and interesting rather than just a place people sleep at night.

Very well said! I tried to convey the same opinions but didn't put it as well as you did.

We are constantly on the look for places with these traits. You also hit on another good point, to seek out places that are 2-3  hours away from other "good to visit" places.

I think having other great cities/places to visit within those short drives elevates a potential target.

[leevs11]

We've been struggling with this too. Currently live in NYC, SF before that, but are from Minnesota and Florida.

SF & NYC seem too expensive for RE. I could do SF weather wise, but definitely not in love with NYC.

MN has a lot of family, but cold weather. FL has some family and hot weather.

We've checked out a bunch of other places, but are not really getting anywhere with it. The other weird factor is whether we take WFH jobs at some point before we actually RE. That would open things up, but again make it hard to decide.

This probably wasn't helpful, but wanted to share that we're in the same boat.

[Log]

Enjoyed this recent video from CityNerd on under-valued American cities, but of course any such list is only valuable in-so-far as your preferences are in alignment with the preferences of the person making the list.

If you don't want to watch, his factors (aside from considering cost implicit in 'under-valued') were:
-Larger cities! This entire list is premised on living in the city, so if you plan a suburban or rural retirement the whole list is pretty much useless (:
-Transit
-Walkability and bikability
-Urban fabric not broken up by excessive freeways
-Culture and sports
-Air and rail connections to other cities
-Climate

Loved to see New York make the list even considering cost, albeit at number 10. The outer boroughs or the Jersey side still have some excellent urban places at much lower cost. The winters might get wintery, but are really not bad at all relative to mid-western winters. If avoiding cold is a factor, it's worth noting that all forms of "winter" are not created equal. In my time living in New York, there were honestly very few winter days where I wasn't happy and comfortable going for a long walk with a decent coat and scarf. There's a big difference between 20 and -20.

The remaining selections were:
9. Minneapolis-St Paul
8. St Louis
7. Milwaukee
6. Buffalo
5. Cleveland
4. New Orleans
3. Pittsburgh
2. Philly
1. Chicago

Of course, many of those options have truly crappy winters... but the housing markets in most warm climates are obscene, and you're retired, you can just use those savings to travel in the winters!

[YttriumNitrate]

My preference would be for college towns in somewhat rural / less big city areas. I lived in a Big 10 college town for 15 years and it was a great mix of low-cost of living and fun things to do.

[srrb]

Have you thought about how you want to age -- the day-to-day habits we have that are often heavily influenced by our environment. Assuming you want a healthy longevity, what's there to keep you active and civically engaged? For instance, we pay more to live on the westcoast for mild weather that makes it easy to walk for errands 12 months of the year. Or, despite being regular travelers, we dont live near a major airport but are at the rec centre almost everyday. Ease and enjoyment of local programming six days a week beats out an extra day of travel six times a year.

[Villanelle]

DH and I aren't yet quite in this position yet, but it's something we talk about probably at least weekly.  Living in Northern Virginia has taught me that hot, humid weather is really detrimental to my QOL.  I overheat easily so being active outside is extremely limited.  I'm also very reactive to mosquito bites, which is another strike against this climate.  It has all made me much more aware of how important climate is to me.

If money were no object, we'd land in Coronado, CA, which was pretty much perfect in all ways but one, for the 9 months we lived there?  That "one way"?  Cost.  Housing prices are insanity.  $1.3m gets you an 1100sqft condo. Can't do that.  Climate change might also be a concern for Coronado.

We know we will have to sacrifice some things.  While 'climate' is toward the top of my list of important factors, it is probably going to be one of the things we have to sacrifice because I'm not sure there is anywhere in the US that has the climate I want, that isn't also incredibly expensive. 

[srrb]

As an aside, because we're off the beaten path, part of our annual budget is airfare for the kids to come visit. We have a little airport nearby that connects to a a couple of major cities a few times a week. We keep a "tab" and they can book themselves (and friends or partners) to visit whenever they want. Sometimes just a couple of nights, sometimes a couple of weeks. We plan to keep this economic support open for always as a way to enjoy our wealth while still alive. And part of our community choice was being able to afford a home with lots of room for house guests. We're in a bit of aan adventure tourist area so often enjoyably host friends and family.

[pdxvandal]

I used to fantasize about living full-time (or most of the time) in Panama, Mexico, Arizona, wherever's warm ... and far cheaper. But as I get older and read some of the wise posts of the MMM members, I'm definitely going to stay in the general area I'm living now, largely due to many friends and relationships. But also because there is cleaner air and an abundance of water, despite the drought we've had for many years.

Water's going to be an increasingly precious resource over time and I don't want my primary residence to be in California, Arizona, Nevada, New Mexico, etc., when the $hit hits the fan. And due to humidity and lack of personal connections, I won't do the Midwest or East Coast. I'm in a HCOL place right now and will ideally downsize to a MCHOL area in 6-7 years. That will allow me to visit warm-weather places for a few months during dreary PNW winters.

[Cranky]

You might find some of the observations in this interview with Melody Warnick about her book This Is Where You Belong: The Art and Science of Loving the Place You Live helpful or at least interesting. She discusses both learning to appreciate where you live and what to think about in choosing somewhere else, e.g. LCOL isn't everything.  I read the book a few years ago and enjoyed it.
https://livability.com/topics/love-where-you-live/how-to-love-where-you-live-no-matter-where-you-live/

The Livability website seems to be devoted to your exact question. :) https://livability.com/

We read that book for a church group, and then the author came and gave us a talk! I asked her "What if you've done all those things and you still aren't crazy about where you live?" and she answered "Then you are not living in the right place."

And so, we moved. LOL

We moved closer to family, to a place with better services and more to do. It is not the place I had envisioned retiring to, which was Florida where I grew up. I absolutely hate winter, so Wisconsin is not an obvious choice. But Florida is out for climate change reasons, plus the nutty politics only get nuttier. And we do like Wisconsin, winter and all.

[Moustachienne]

So interesting to hear a real life experience with the book - and author!  I live in a place I love so read the book with an eye to getting even more out of it but it's true that moving might just be the ultimate answer if you can't get on with a place despite your best efforts. :)

As a Canadian, it always seems to me that Americans are much more willing to move cities, even states, for work or just because. I think there's data to back this up but can't put my finger on it at the moment.  Maybe because the US is such a giant country with lots of options in terms of locations, climates, cultures, COL.  Canadians will move for work, just ask all the Down Homers who've had to "go down the road", first to Toronto for the factory work in the '50's and '60's, and then west to Alberta for the oilsands jobs.  Some stay but many send money home and save up to retire back in the Maritimes.

You might find some of the observations in this interview with Melody Warnick about her book This Is Where You Belong: The Art and Science of Loving the Place You Live helpful or at least interesting. She discusses both learning to appreciate where you live and what to think about in choosing somewhere else, e.g. LCOL isn't everything.  I read the book a few years ago and enjoyed it.
https://livability.com/topics/love-where-you-live/how-to-love-where-you-live-no-matter-where-you-live/

The Livability website seems to be devoted to your exact question. :) https://livability.com/

We read that book for a church group, and then the author came and gave us a talk! I asked her "What if you've done all those things and you still aren't crazy about where you live?" and she answered "Then you are not living in the right place."

And so, we moved. LOL

We moved closer to family, to a place with better services and more to do. It is not the place I had envisioned retiring to, which was Florida where I grew up. I absolutely hate winter, so Wisconsin is not an obvious choice. But Florida is out for climate change reasons, plus the nutty politics only get nuttier. And we do like Wisconsin, winter and all.

[lutorm]

For us, not having to work has meant that we can move to be closer to family, the grandparents, etc. Maybe once the kids are moved out (by then the grandparents will probably be dead, too) we'll want to move somewhere else, but having family around when you have kids is pretty huge IMHO.

[FLBiker]

@FLBiker how did you manage to move to Canada? Are you a US citizen?

My wife and I are both US citizens.  We became Canadian permanent residents via the Express Entry for Skilled Workers pathway -- it is a long, fairly complicated, and somewhat expensive process.  It probably took us about 18 months, and cost around ~$3000 all-in (app fees, English tests, transcript evaluations, medical exams).  If you're under 40, though, with decent work experience and degrees, it's totally doable.  Or, at least it was 2 years ago.  If you (or anyone else) has specific questions, feel free to PM me.  And once we had PR status, I got a WFH job and talked my employer (based in the US) into employing me through a Professional Employment Organization (aka PEO) so that I could relocate to Canada.  The nice thing about this set up is I get Canadian benefits, and get paid in Canadian dollars.  It's a bit more expensive for my employer, but it isn't too bad since healthcare is cheaper up here.  And having a WFH job is really nice as we were able to move to a town we really liked, rather than having to to move to a particular place for work.  And housing in Canada is much more reasonable outside of the cities, and we'd likely have to be in a city for work.  That said, housing prices in our small town have really gone up in the last couple years.

[Cranky]

So interesting to hear a real life experience with the book - and author!  I live in a place I love so read the book with an eye to getting even more out of it but it's true that moving might just be the ultimate answer if you can't get on with a place despite your best efforts. :)

As a Canadian, it always seems to me that Americans are much more willing to move cities, even states, for work or just because. I think there's data to back this up but can't put my finger on it at the moment.  Maybe because the US is such a giant country with lots of options in terms of locations, climates, cultures, COL.  Canadians will move for work, just ask all the Down Homers who've had to "go down the road", first to Toronto for the factory work in the '50's and '60's, and then west to Alberta for the oilsands jobs.  Some stay but many send money home and save up to retire back in the Maritimes.

You might find some of the observations in this interview with Melody Warnick about her book This Is Where You Belong: The Art and Science of Loving the Place You Live helpful or at least interesting. She discusses both learning to appreciate where you live and what to think about in choosing somewhere else, e.g. LCOL isn't everything.  I read the book a few years ago and enjoyed it.
https://livability.com/topics/love-where-you-live/how-to-love-where-you-live-no-matter-where-you-live/

The Livability website seems to be devoted to your exact question. :) https://livability.com/

We read that book for a church group, and then the author came and gave us a talk! I asked her "What if you've done all those things and you still aren't crazy about where you live?" and she answered "Then you are not living in the right place."

And so, we moved. LOL

We moved closer to family, to a place with better services and more to do. It is not the place I had envisioned retiring to, which was Florida where I grew up. I absolutely hate winter, so Wisconsin is not an obvious choice. But Florida is out for climate change reasons, plus the nutty politics only get nuttier. And we do like Wisconsin, winter and all.

Most Americans don't actually move that far over their lifetimes! I think it really is heavily tied to the kind of job that you have, too.

[Missy B]

...But also because there is cleaner air and an abundance of water, despite the drought we've had for many years.

Water's going to be an increasingly precious resource over time and I don't want my primary residence to be in California, Arizona, Nevada, New Mexico, etc., when the $hit hits the fan.

Yeah, this. Also live in the PNW, Canadian side of the border. Told my bf we need to get down and see AZ, CA, NV and NM before it goes all Mad Max, and only half joking. I think there will be an ugly reversal in real estate prices in CA when the water supply dries up and that will be in my lifetime.

[reeshau]

Most Americans don't actually move that far over their lifetimes! I think it really is heavily tied to the kind of job that you have, too.

I know you are literally talking about distance, but I found this statistic interesting when I first came across it.  The average American moves 11 times in their lifetime.  (As of 2015)

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/how-many-times-the-average-person-moves/

While a number of moves can be explained as childhood home / first apartment / buy a house, I have a hard time seeing 11 moves all being writhing a narrow range--what would be the motivation?

I had questioned the statistic itself when I first heard it.  At the time, I concluded I was at 13.  (A good number occurred during college years)  I am now up to 16.  While I don't anticipate such a pace any more, post FIRE, I do expect we have at least one more to go.

[Sandi_k]

Most Americans don't actually move that far over their lifetimes! I think it really is heavily tied to the kind of job that you have, too.

I know you are literally talking about distance, but I found this statistic interesting when I first came across it.  The average American moves 11 times in their lifetime.  (As of 2015)

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/how-many-times-the-average-person-moves/

While a number of moves can be explained as childhood home / first apartment / buy a house, I have a hard time seeing 11 moves all being writhing a narrow range--what would be the motivation?

For Americans, I think it's childhood, sibling additions, college, jobs, upsizing from the "starter home", then downsizing in retirement, and then optimizing for age - single level, senior community, etc.

Most folks I know with kids have moved at least twice while the kids are age 5-18. And in real estate, the often-read stat is that Americans tend to stay in a home for 7 years.

So yeah - 11 times checks out, IMO.

[Cranky]

There's a current article in the NYT about how much *less* Americans are moving - it's been decreasing since the 80s and has sharply decreased since 2008.

But people do tend to do most of their moving within a short distance.

Let's see - we moved 4 times before I was old enough to remember! These had to do with my dad finishing school and getting a job and then buying a house. We moved 3 more times while I still lived at home, related to my dad's job, and then getting a larger house.

I lived in maybe 6 more places while I was in college/grad school.

7 moves while married. 1 move last year after dh retired. So I've lived in 20 different houses...

[Fomerly known as something]

Not for immediate life post Fire but as one gets older, 100% take Health Care access into consideration.  If I’m going to live in a more rural area, it will be in the big city for that Area in order to be close to a good sized hospital.  Example Marquette or Traverse city Michigan.  Each small city supports the regional level 2 hospital, people sent to these hospitals are sometimes from hours away where their local “hospital” is really an urgent care clinic.

[Just Joe]

There's a current article in the NYT about how much *less* Americans are moving - it's been decreasing since the 80s and has sharply decreased since 2008.

Just add in a turn in the military. I'm up to 16 addresses. One enlistment, one university degree, one marriage. We are happy in the house we live in now. However, expect we'll downsize when we get old.

[mcluhan]

Keep in mind that people in low cost of living areas usually make their lifelong friends during high school and aren't interested in making new ones during adulthood.

[Metalcat]

Keep in mind that people in low cost of living areas usually make their lifelong friends during high school and aren't interested in making new ones during adulthood.

I've been adopted into plenty established friend groups.
I just spent the summer doing this in two LCOL locations, one extremely tight knit and a bit hostile to outsiders.

That said, making friends is a skill that most people never actually learn.

[2sk22]

I found this wonderful resource with a lot of thoughtful information about the impact of climate change on various areas in the US: https://firststreet.org/risk-factor/
They offer projections of the impact of climate change on heat, fire risk and flood risk.

[JupiterGreen]

I found this wonderful resource with a lot of thoughtful information about the impact of climate change on various areas in the US: https://firststreet.org/risk-factor/
They offer projections of the impact of climate change on heat, fire risk and flood risk.

Thanks, this risk map is great! 

[malacca]

I was living in a Seoul Korea and was getting burned out. My business partners were also. So we sat down and made a list of criteria of places to move. It was very methodical.

The list ended up as:

Singapore
Australia
Malaysia

So off we went and visited each place. We ended up in Malaysia (6 years).

I did the same for US States when I moved back to the USA.

I started in AZ. But my information on schools was inaccurate (they sucked donkey). So we ended up in MN.

[poxpower]

Really thinking about this myself since rent just about doubled since I retired and moved here to Vancouver island.

Would appreciate feedback on my options...

1- keep living on Vancouver Island.
Pro: My sister and brother in law family are here. I'm fond of them, and them of me. They are the best part of living here. Cycling is good here, weather isn't so bad but not as good as expected.
Con: Rent is now so high I cannot afford to live alone and stay retired. There's very few dating prospects here and having roomates at 37 certainly won't help that either. Do I want to start building a life in a ludicrously impossible to afford place?

2- Move to mainland BC
Pro: Way more people, not stuck on an island ( so can do road trips easily, no covid shutting down boats etc. ). More places to cycle, more people to meet and date. Rent in some areas almost affordable.
Con: Moving to where I know nobody. Vancouver is a huge toilet. Rents are still somewhat ludicrous.

3- Stay on island and travel
Pro: Periodically come back to family. Travel all over the world for cheaper then it costs to live in BC.
Con: Make no lasting bonds with anyone new. No relationships. Always mostly alone.

4- Stay on island and travel then move back to quebec next summer
Pro: My friends are still mostly in Quebec/Montreal. Big cycling community. It's my roots and culture. Affordable rent.
Con: Garbage roads, garbage weather, garbage taxes/tax system, nutty politics ( covid curfew... what's next? ).

5- Buy some dumpy place and just travel
Pro: Own my place. Cheap cost of living. Tons of extra money for toys and travel.
Con: Completely isolated at all times. Very unlikely to meet anyone for a relationship in my opinion. Cycling likely garbage, weather likely garbage.

Distant 6th plan: Find some low cost of living country and plan some kind of exit from Canada to there.

I really really have no idea what to do. If rent was the same as 2 years ago, I'd stay here. Now? No idea.

[former player]

The two themes running through your post are "find my tribe" and "find a relationship".  You can do either of those almost anywhere.  So how much of your questions is really about location?  And would answering the question about location be an answer to the rest?

[treffpunkt]

Really thinking about this myself since rent just about doubled since I retired and moved here to Vancouver island.

Would appreciate feedback on my options...

1- keep living on Vancouver Island.
Pro: My sister and brother in law family are here. I'm fond of them, and them of me. They are the best part of living here. Cycling is good here, weather isn't so bad but not as good as expected.
Con: Rent is now so high I cannot afford to live alone and stay retired. There's very few dating prospects here and having roomates at 37 certainly won't help that either. Do I want to start building a life in a ludicrously impossible to afford place?

2- Move to mainland BC
Pro: Way more people, not stuck on an island ( so can do road trips easily, no covid shutting down boats etc. ). More places to cycle, more people to meet and date. Rent in some areas almost affordable.
Con: Moving to where I know nobody. Vancouver is a huge toilet. Rents are still somewhat ludicrous.

3- Stay on island and travel
Pro: Periodically come back to family. Travel all over the world for cheaper then it costs to live in BC.
Con: Make no lasting bonds with anyone new. No relationships. Always mostly alone.

4- Stay on island and travel then move back to quebec next summer
Pro: My friends are still mostly in Quebec/Montreal. Big cycling community. It's my roots and culture. Affordable rent.
Con: Garbage roads, garbage weather, garbage taxes/tax system, nutty politics ( covid curfew... what's next? ).

5- Buy some dumpy place and just travel
Pro: Own my place. Cheap cost of living. Tons of extra money for toys and travel.
Con: Completely isolated at all times. Very unlikely to meet anyone for a relationship in my opinion. Cycling likely garbage, weather likely garbage.

Distant 6th plan: Find some low cost of living country and plan some kind of exit from Canada to there.

I really really have no idea what to do. If rent was the same as 2 years ago, I'd stay here. Now? No idea.

I lived most of my life in Vancouver and lived for two years on Vancouver Island (left in April this year). Coincidentally, I'm visiting Montreal for three months (leaving in October). My two cents is if you're going to do a city, do a proper one like Montreal. If you're going to do nature, stay on the island but very seriously consider moving away from Victoria (rents and average age of the residents will both decrease as you head up!). If you do go to the mainland for nature, go to the interior or the Kootenays. Vancouver tries to be both so doesn't do either as well as other places do. The no-fun city moniker is accurate. Being in Montreal has certainly driven that home for me.

You can find a relationship and your tribe anywhere, even if you are moving around. If you're living in the way you want, you'll meet other people also living that way. If you want to be settled somewhere and "build a life", then find somewhere affordable and as appealing as possible to settle; don't struggle to try to make a too-expensive place work. If you want to explore the world for a while first, then do that. In either scenario, you'll meet like-minded people. But if the age in your profile is accurate, then you really are hobbling your dating life living in Victoria. :)

For what it's worth I'm doing a modified version of your #5: I don't have a permanent home anymore. I'm heading to Mexico and the Caribbean this winter and then back to B.C. for a bit in the spring to visit family. I haven't decided yet where to after that.

[poxpower]

The two themes running through your post are "find my tribe" and "find a relationship".  You can do either of those almost anywhere.  So how much of your questions is really about location?  And would answering the question about location be an answer to the rest?

It's all about location.
Where do I settle to try and find those two things? I can't decide.

You can find a relationship and your tribe anywhere, even if you are moving around. If you're living in the way you want, you'll meet other people also living that way.

I traveled all over Canada this summer: https://www.thepoxbox.com/travel
Definitely not the way to meet anyone though haha. At least not how I traveled.

then you really are hobbling your dating life living in Victoria. :)

Yeah that certainly is true...

So you're going nomad for a bit then. Are you in a relationship? How old are you? What made you want to leave the island / region?

[treffpunkt]

I traveled all over Canada this summer: https://www.thepoxbox.com/travel
Definitely not the way to meet anyone though haha. At least not how I traveled.
...
So you're going nomad for a bit then. Are you in a relationship? How old are you? What made you want to leave the island / region?

Lightning speed and car camping do not make for a lot of social opportunities, I imagine. I've been trying to stay at least a month in each place and to meet like-minded people I participate in some sort of charitable thing when possible (gleaning in the Okanagan or cleaning up a park, for example) and join a local hiking, biking, or walking group (or all three). I'm 50 and not in a relationship. I didn't want to leave the island but the pros, as pro as they are, simply did not outweigh the cons for me. No amount of wishing for (the SW of) BC to return to its empty and affordable glory days will ever make it so. It was time to move on.

[poxpower]

Lightning speed and car camping do not make for a lot of social opportunities, I imagine.

I really sacrificed the social component in favor of the tourism component yah. It was such a huge hassle to time myself with people I already knew x_X
But I did meet like 5-10 new cycling people, if only for a day. They're still on strava so who knows.

Another funny thing is how many men/older men would chat me up about my bike. "Woah that's a nice bike, how much does it cost?" lol. "Woah how much does it weigh?". I'd try to send them postcards and stuff.

Same for the boondockers people. Nothing much came from it but I'm sure they appreciated the card and I had fun sending them.

I've been trying to stay at least a month in each place and to meet like-minded people I participate in some sort of charitable thing when possible (gleaning in the Okanagan or cleaning up a park, for example) and join a local hiking, biking, or walking group (or all three).

Where do you stay for a month? Like an airbnb? Rent?

How would you say the social aspect of this usually pans out?