Author Topic: How do people make $100+ salary?  (Read 59279 times)

slappy

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Re: How do people make $100+ salary?
« Reply #300 on: January 26, 2018, 02:00:13 PM »
Jaguar can reply with his thoughts, but a good friend of mine just switched careers at 40 and is now highway patrol. He *LOVES* his new job compared to his former career which he described as soul crushing. He patrols an area by himself. No boss looking over his shoulder. While he does pull over and write tickets it's generally just speeders. He responds to accidents more than anything else (mountain ski town) and that of course is a situation where you're there to bring order to chaos and help out on what is someone's worst day in a while. His wife and kid are proud of him. He's got a job for life and great bennies. Obviously results might vary if you were a cop in Compton or something. :D

Highway patrol is much different than being a police officer. My husband was an officer and he responded to calls of suicide, children being abused etc.  Many days involved him performing a welfare check only to find the person deceased for several days. The final straw was him responding to a 911 call at his parents home and finding his father passed away on the kitchen floor.  Obviously not everyone (hopefully no one) will be in that situation, but "sweet/fun" is the last thing I would characterize the job as. Also, it's almost impossible to get in without certain qualifications, at least the area that OP is in.

Jaguar Paw

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Re: How do people make $100+ salary?
« Reply #301 on: January 26, 2018, 08:13:37 PM »
Replying to a few different people so I won't quote anyone in particular.

First I'll start with whoever was talking about officers that make around 100K in the NYC suburbs..The price of living in the northeast is obviously crazy and it is fairly obvious that the 100K goes a lot further down here in LCOL Texas.

On the sweet/fun part: The job is awesome! In 10 years I have worked Patrol, Gangs, and now Human Trafficking. I get paid what I consider way too much to investigate crimes and put really bad people in jail for decades. I get to use intelligence, people skills, acting and outside of the box thinking plus I do not have anyone micromanaging me, which is a plus. Add in the fact that I get 4 weeks of vacation time that I have to use every year, plus another 6 weeks of vacation time that if I don't use keep accruing and it's super sweet. Add in that at 25 years on the job (I'll be 47), I get paid 55% of my salary for the rest of my life and then I just feel spoiled.

I am very lucky in that I sincerely enjoy my job. At the end of a 2 week vacation, or even a weekend, I'm still excited to head to work. That being said, I can't wait until retirement.

GU

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Re: How do people make $100+ salary?
« Reply #302 on: January 26, 2018, 09:50:51 PM »
In response to the OP:

Take out student loans and work in finance/tech/law/consulting/medicine in a HCOL city, and voilŗ, you're making six figures.  This is a pretty stupid thing to do IMO, but it's an almost surefire route to +$100k if you're fairly intelligent and hard working.

Personally, I went to law school, took out huge loans to do so, and make a lot more than $100k while living in a HCOL city.  It is easily the worst decision of my life.  Prior to law school, I was debt-free and living a Mustachian life before MMM (the blog at least) existed.  I was saving +50% of take-home pay on a $35k salary fresh out of college. Had a 401(k) but wasn't maxing it out admittedly. Now I'm a debt slave who has to work long hours at a stressful but boring job.  And some odd circumstances have caused my student loans to balloon out of "reasonable amount to pay off" territory. 

My friend who got kicked out of law school after his first year is in *way* better financial shape than me, LOL. He had a rough go for a few years, then found a sales job and is killing it.  He has a rental property and an AirBnb property along with $150k - $250k salary for about 30 hours of work per week, nearly all of it from home. 

The point?  Find a way to make "+$100k" that doesn't involve trading time for money.  That's a sucker's game, especially if your personality is the type that draws you to Mustachianism.  I know a few people who truly live to work and relish spending 60+ hours a week in the office, but few people can maintain that for very long, and really, why would you want to? Start a business, buy assets, learn sales, etc.

BioLawyer

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Re: How do people make $100+ salary?
« Reply #303 on: January 27, 2018, 10:00:12 AM »
The point?  Find a way to make "+$100k" that doesn't involve trading time for money.  That's a sucker's game, especially if your personality is the type that draws you to Mustachianism.  I know a few people who truly live to work and relish spending 60+ hours a week in the office, but few people can maintain that for very long, and really, why would you want to? Start a business, buy assets, learn sales, etc.

Itís definitely a trade off. Started at $100k+ in a mid-sized firm in a LCOL suburban town several years ago. Should be at $200k+ in a few more years. Didnít have much debt out of law school, so Iíve been able to build my equity. Even though I generally enjoy the work, a 2000 billable hour requirement is a drag. No way around it working at a typical firm. In-house would be a bit more palatable, but income would definitely drop.

Tabaxus

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Re: How do people make $100+ salary?
« Reply #304 on: January 27, 2018, 10:09:24 AM »
In response to the OP:

Take out student loans and work in finance/tech/law/consulting/medicine in a HCOL city, and voilŗ, you're making six figures.  This is a pretty stupid thing to do IMO, but it's an almost surefire route to +$100k if you're fairly intelligent and hard working.

Personally, I went to law school, took out huge loans to do so, and make a lot more than $100k while living in a HCOL city.  It is easily the worst decision of my life.  Prior to law school, I was debt-free and living a Mustachian life before MMM (the blog at least) existed.  I was saving +50% of take-home pay on a $35k salary fresh out of college. Had a 401(k) but wasn't maxing it out admittedly. Now I'm a debt slave who has to work long hours at a stressful but boring job.  And some odd circumstances have caused my student loans to balloon out of "reasonable amount to pay off" territory. 

My friend who got kicked out of law school after his first year is in *way* better financial shape than me, LOL. He had a rough go for a few years, then found a sales job and is killing it.  He has a rental property and an AirBnb property along with $150k - $250k salary for about 30 hours of work per week, nearly all of it from home. 

The point?  Find a way to make "+$100k" that doesn't involve trading time for money.  That's a sucker's game, especially if your personality is the type that draws you to Mustachianism.  I know a few people who truly live to work and relish spending 60+ hours a week in the office, but few people can maintain that for very long, and really, why would you want to? Start a business, buy assets, learn sales, etc.

A lot of people that do things like law school do so because starting a business isn't really in the cards for them (of course, people who don't end up getting firm jobs find out the hard way that they're suddenly starting a business after all).  The "start your own business!" thing is sometimes hard for me to swallow--I cannot fathom trying to have my own business, I have no ideas whatsoever for what such a business would be, etc.  I'll continue hacking away at my firm job for lack of any real alternatives and save some money for the inevitable day where that's no longer an option.  Not a great plan, I realize, but eh.

BTDretire

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Re: How do people make $100+ salary?
« Reply #305 on: January 27, 2018, 11:20:45 AM »
Replying to a few different people so I won't quote anyone in particular.

First I'll start with whoever was talking about officers that make around 100K in the NYC suburbs..The price of living in the northeast is obviously crazy and it is fairly obvious that the 100K goes a lot further down here in LCOL Texas.

On the sweet/fun part: The job is awesome! In 10 years I have worked Patrol, Gangs, and now Human Trafficking. I get paid what I consider way too much to investigate crimes and put really bad people in jail for decades. I get to use intelligence, people skills, acting and outside of the box thinking plus I do not have anyone micromanaging me, which is a plus. Add in the fact that I get 4 weeks of vacation time that I have to use every year, plus another 6 weeks of vacation time that if I don't use keep accruing and it's super sweet. Add in that at 25 years on the job (I'll be 47), I get paid 55% of my salary for the rest of my life and then I just feel spoiled.

 I'm sure you work hard and also in a dangerous profession, thank you.

 But if anyone wonders why goverments are broke, just look at this.
He get's paid a high wage for working an 80% schedule, 10 paid weeks (off).
 He didn't say, but gov jobs usually have a great health insurance plan.
And then to support him with 55% of his salary for what could easily be 35 years probably
with health insurance, when he has paid nothing into it, is just legislators giving away
other peoples money, Taxpayers money.
/rant is over/


AccidentalMiser

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Re: How do people make $100+ salary?
« Reply #306 on: January 27, 2018, 11:22:35 AM »
I joined the Navy at 19 and entered the nuclear power program.  At 25, I got out and got a job as a nuclear equipment operator (non-control room operator at a power plant).  At 28, I broke 100k for the first time and never looked back.  That was 20 years ago.  Now, I make 200k per year and live in a LCOL area.  If I applied myself, I could double that but I don't work all that hard and have a lot of other interests.  I am planning to retire in a year or two.

FWIW, I have two degrees but got them later in life for my own purposes, they have no impact on my salary.

w@nker

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Re: How do people make $100+ salary?
« Reply #307 on: January 27, 2018, 04:14:34 PM »
Hard work ethic.  Above average intelligence/skill.  Relationships/political capital.  Ambition.  Luck.

Possessing any two of these could propel one into a high salary.

JLee

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Re: How do people make $100+ salary?
« Reply #308 on: January 28, 2018, 12:12:03 AM »
Replying to a few different people so I won't quote anyone in particular.

First I'll start with whoever was talking about officers that make around 100K in the NYC suburbs..The price of living in the northeast is obviously crazy and it is fairly obvious that the 100K goes a lot further down here in LCOL Texas.

On the sweet/fun part: The job is awesome! In 10 years I have worked Patrol, Gangs, and now Human Trafficking. I get paid what I consider way too much to investigate crimes and put really bad people in jail for decades. I get to use intelligence, people skills, acting and outside of the box thinking plus I do not have anyone micromanaging me, which is a plus. Add in the fact that I get 4 weeks of vacation time that I have to use every year, plus another 6 weeks of vacation time that if I don't use keep accruing and it's super sweet. Add in that at 25 years on the job (I'll be 47), I get paid 55% of my salary for the rest of my life and then I just feel spoiled.

 I'm sure you work hard and also in a dangerous profession, thank you.

 But if anyone wonders why goverments are broke, just look at this.
He get's paid a high wage for working an 80% schedule, 10 paid weeks (off).
 He didn't say, but gov jobs usually have a great health insurance plan.
And then to support him with 55% of his salary for what could easily be 35 years probably
with health insurance, when he has paid nothing into it, is just legislators giving away
other peoples money, Taxpayers money.
/rant is over/

I absolutely paid into my government/law enforcement retirement plan.  10 weeks off is insane, though.  Apparently I was working in the wrong state.

sol

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Re: How do people make $100+ salary?
« Reply #309 on: January 28, 2018, 12:33:12 AM »
I absolutely paid into my government/law enforcement retirement plan. 

I've never understood why some people hate pensions or think they are some kind of gift.  Of course I pay into it, both directly out of each paycheck and indirectly with my ~30%-below-market-rate government job.

Just imagine how much earlier you could retire if you saved an additional 30% of your pay!  That's approximately how much later I can retire because I work for a federal agency.

Jaguar Paw

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Re: How do people make $100+ salary?
« Reply #310 on: January 28, 2018, 07:19:03 AM »
Replying to a few different people so I won't quote anyone in particular.

First I'll start with whoever was talking about officers that make around 100K in the NYC suburbs..The price of living in the northeast is obviously crazy and it is fairly obvious that the 100K goes a lot further down here in LCOL Texas.

On the sweet/fun part: The job is awesome! In 10 years I have worked Patrol, Gangs, and now Human Trafficking. I get paid what I consider way too much to investigate crimes and put really bad people in jail for decades. I get to use intelligence, people skills, acting and outside of the box thinking plus I do not have anyone micromanaging me, which is a plus. Add in the fact that I get 4 weeks of vacation time that I have to use every year, plus another 6 weeks of vacation time that if I don't use keep accruing and it's super sweet. Add in that at 25 years on the job (I'll be 47), I get paid 55% of my salary for the rest of my life and then I just feel spoiled.

 I'm sure you work hard and also in a dangerous profession, thank you.

 But if anyone wonders why goverments are broke, just look at this.
He get's paid a high wage for working an 80% schedule, 10 paid weeks (off).
 He didn't say, but gov jobs usually have a great health insurance plan.
And then to support him with 55% of his salary for what could easily be 35 years probably
with health insurance, when he has paid nothing into it, is just legislators giving away
other peoples money, Taxpayers money.
/rant is over/

We do have pretty great, and cheap insurance as well. As far as the pension and retirement is concerned: First, I hope that it's more than 35 years. Second, we are not offered health insurance through our job upon retirement so we end up paying a ton when we do retire. Third, and probably most importantly that we actually pay 10.25% from every cent we make into the pension fund. Fourth, most departments around the country are nothing like this compared to pay, paid time off, and even pensions.

TomTX

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Re: How do people make $100+ salary?
« Reply #311 on: January 28, 2018, 08:19:49 AM »
Replying to a few different people so I won't quote anyone in particular.

First I'll start with whoever was talking about officers that make around 100K in the NYC suburbs..The price of living in the northeast is obviously crazy and it is fairly obvious that the 100K goes a lot further down here in LCOL Texas.

On the sweet/fun part: The job is awesome! In 10 years I have worked Patrol, Gangs, and now Human Trafficking. I get paid what I consider way too much to investigate crimes and put really bad people in jail for decades. I get to use intelligence, people skills, acting and outside of the box thinking plus I do not have anyone micromanaging me, which is a plus. Add in the fact that I get 4 weeks of vacation time that I have to use every year, plus another 6 weeks of vacation time that if I don't use keep accruing and it's super sweet. Add in that at 25 years on the job (I'll be 47), I get paid 55% of my salary for the rest of my life and then I just feel spoiled.

 I'm sure you work hard and also in a dangerous profession, thank you.

 But if anyone wonders why goverments are broke, just look at this.
He get's paid a high wage for working an 80% schedule, 10 paid weeks (off).
 He didn't say, but gov jobs usually have a great health insurance plan.
And then to support him with 55% of his salary for what could easily be 35 years probably
with health insurance, when he has paid nothing into it, is just legislators giving away
other peoples money, Taxpayers money.
/rant is over/

I absolutely paid into my government/law enforcement retirement plan.  10 weeks off is insane, though.  Apparently I was working in the wrong state.

While the LEOs do get a moderately better deal - I work for Texas and I'm paying nearly 10% of my salary into the pension, the salary is at least 25% lower than industry, and I'm paying nearly $600/month for decent-not-great (80/20 coverage, $25/$40 copays) health insurance for a family of 3. While there is a 401k available there is no matching.

If you don't work for the State until close to when you draw the pension, you pretty much get screwed. There is no inflation adjustment. If you cash it out instead of waiting, you have gotten a mere 2% interest on that contribution they took from your paycheck. The requirements to start drawing the pension have become more and more onerous for anyone starting after August 31, 2009.

It can be a good deal if you work for the State until you retire, especially if you are grandfathered in.

JLee

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Re: How do people make $100+ salary?
« Reply #312 on: January 28, 2018, 09:46:19 AM »
Replying to a few different people so I won't quote anyone in particular.

First I'll start with whoever was talking about officers that make around 100K in the NYC suburbs..The price of living in the northeast is obviously crazy and it is fairly obvious that the 100K goes a lot further down here in LCOL Texas.

On the sweet/fun part: The job is awesome! In 10 years I have worked Patrol, Gangs, and now Human Trafficking. I get paid what I consider way too much to investigate crimes and put really bad people in jail for decades. I get to use intelligence, people skills, acting and outside of the box thinking plus I do not have anyone micromanaging me, which is a plus. Add in the fact that I get 4 weeks of vacation time that I have to use every year, plus another 6 weeks of vacation time that if I don't use keep accruing and it's super sweet. Add in that at 25 years on the job (I'll be 47), I get paid 55% of my salary for the rest of my life and then I just feel spoiled.

 I'm sure you work hard and also in a dangerous profession, thank you.

 But if anyone wonders why goverments are broke, just look at this.
He get's paid a high wage for working an 80% schedule, 10 paid weeks (off).
 He didn't say, but gov jobs usually have a great health insurance plan.
And then to support him with 55% of his salary for what could easily be 35 years probably
with health insurance, when he has paid nothing into it, is just legislators giving away
other peoples money, Taxpayers money.
/rant is over/

I absolutely paid into my government/law enforcement retirement plan.  10 weeks off is insane, though.  Apparently I was working in the wrong state.

While the LEOs do get a moderately better deal - I work for Texas and I'm paying nearly 10% of my salary into the pension, the salary is at least 25% lower than industry, and I'm paying nearly $600/month for decent-not-great (80/20 coverage, $25/$40 copays) health insurance for a family of 3. While there is a 401k available there is no matching.

If you don't work for the State until close to when you draw the pension, you pretty much get screwed. There is no inflation adjustment. If you cash it out instead of waiting, you have gotten a mere 2% interest on that contribution they took from your paycheck. The requirements to start drawing the pension have become more and more onerous for anyone starting after August 31, 2009.

It can be a good deal if you work for the State until you retire, especially if you are grandfathered in.

My health care was cheap/excellent (single) - no idea what family plans cost. I think my pension contribution was 11% and I didn't have a 401k (I don't think it was offered but I can't say with 100% certainty).

NH retirement used to be awesome - 20 years and out. Then when I got in, it was something like 23 + minimum age, and I think now it's 26 years + minimum age? Unsure anymore, as it's been a long time...

slappy

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Re: How do people make $100+ salary?
« Reply #313 on: January 28, 2018, 10:01:44 AM »
Replying to a few different people so I won't quote anyone in particular.

First I'll start with whoever was talking about officers that make around 100K in the NYC suburbs..The price of living in the northeast is obviously crazy and it is fairly obvious that the 100K goes a lot further down here in LCOL Texas.

On the sweet/fun part: The job is awesome! In 10 years I have worked Patrol, Gangs, and now Human Trafficking. I get paid what I consider way too much to investigate crimes and put really bad people in jail for decades. I get to use intelligence, people skills, acting and outside of the box thinking plus I do not have anyone micromanaging me, which is a plus. Add in the fact that I get 4 weeks of vacation time that I have to use every year, plus another 6 weeks of vacation time that if I don't use keep accruing and it's super sweet. Add in that at 25 years on the job (I'll be 47), I get paid 55% of my salary for the rest of my life and then I just feel spoiled.

 I'm sure you work hard and also in a dangerous profession, thank you.

 But if anyone wonders why goverments are broke, just look at this.
He get's paid a high wage for working an 80% schedule, 10 paid weeks (off).
 He didn't say, but gov jobs usually have a great health insurance plan.
And then to support him with 55% of his salary for what could easily be 35 years probably
with health insurance, when he has paid nothing into it, is just legislators giving away
other peoples money, Taxpayers money.
/rant is over/

I absolutely paid into my government/law enforcement retirement plan.  10 weeks off is insane, though.  Apparently I was working in the wrong state.

While the LEOs do get a moderately better deal - I work for Texas and I'm paying nearly 10% of my salary into the pension, the salary is at least 25% lower than industry, and I'm paying nearly $600/month for decent-not-great (80/20 coverage, $25/$40 copays) health insurance for a family of 3. While there is a 401k available there is no matching.

If you don't work for the State until close to when you draw the pension, you pretty much get screwed. There is no inflation adjustment. If you cash it out instead of waiting, you have gotten a mere 2% interest on that contribution they took from your paycheck. The requirements to start drawing the pension have become more and more onerous for anyone starting after August 31, 2009.

It can be a good deal if you work for the State until you retire, especially if you are grandfathered in.

My health care was cheap/excellent (single) - no idea what family plans cost. I think my pension contribution was 11% and I didn't have a 401k (I don't think it was offered but I can't say with 100% certainty).

NH retirement used to be awesome - 20 years and out. Then when I got in, it was something like 23 + minimum age, and I think now it's 26 years + minimum age? Unsure anymore, as it's been a long time...

I think itís 25 now. The family plan was excellent while we were on it, which wasnít long. My husband was offered a 401k and 457. I donít remember about matching though.

GU

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Re: How do people make $100+ salary?
« Reply #314 on: January 28, 2018, 12:13:13 PM »
I absolutely paid into my government/law enforcement retirement plan. 

I've never understood why some people hate pensions or think they are some kind of gift.  Of course I pay into it, both directly out of each paycheck and indirectly with my ~30%-below-market-rate government job.

Just imagine how much earlier you could retire if you saved an additional 30% of your pay!  That's approximately how much later I can retire because I work for a federal agency.

Most federal government employees earn more than they would in the private sector according to the CBO.  https://www.cbo.gov/publication/52637?utm_source=feedblitz&utm_medium=FeedBlitzEmail&utm_content=812526&utm_campaign=Express_2017-04-25_14%3a30  Only people with professional degrees (M.D., J.D., Ph.D., etc.) earn less, on average, working for the government relative to the private sector.  But for this last group, they probably earn more on an hourly basis.  And if you monetized the ability to work fixed hours, not work on weekends, and take real vacation, holiday, and sick days (things many private sector professionals can't do), the balance would again tip in favor of federal employees.

I'm willing to believe that you are one of the "underpaid" individuals.  Really, I am.  But you are in a distinct minority.

And as to your question, people hate public employee pensions because they are always underfunded, so taxpayers end up paying for them, but they don't get the (extremely generous) benefits themselves.

ender

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Re: How do people make $100+ salary?
« Reply #315 on: January 28, 2018, 12:18:11 PM »
And as to your question, people hate public employee pensions because they are always underfunded, so taxpayers end up paying for them, but they don't get the (extremely generous) benefits themselves.

+1 to the real reason why public pensions get so much flak.


Michael in ABQ

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Re: How do people make $100+ salary?
« Reply #316 on: January 28, 2018, 08:38:48 PM »
And as to your question, people hate public employee pensions because they are always underfunded, so taxpayers end up paying for them, but they don't get the (extremely generous) benefits themselves.

+1 to the real reason why public pensions get so much flak.

I serve in the Army National Guard and the percentage of government workers there is well above average as it's hard to tell a private employer "I need to take three weeks off because a slot just opened up for a school I need for promotion". Through a connection there I received an offer for a state job (the hiring manager asked for my resume and wrote the job description to fit). I ended up turning it down as it would have meant a drop in pay from about $55k to about $40k. I tried to negotiate and I think they came up $1.00 per hour. A few guys who were also state employees told me how great the pension was and how it would make up for any decrease in pay.

I've seen how underfunded the state pension plan is. I don't plan to entrust my retirement to that. Not to mention working 25 years for the state is not exactly my life's goal.

Lifestyle Deflation

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Re: How do people make $100+ salary?
« Reply #317 on: January 28, 2018, 08:53:52 PM »
I wondered the same thing. I started my career making around $25k, during those years 50k would have been awesome and 100k unfathomable.

I spent a few years happy with where I was, but knew it wasn't sustainable long term. So I tried to find out what the "high paying" jobs were in the industry I was in. I found out what those jobs were, and made it my mission to get there.

Long story short, I got there. It was a long series of "I want to do ________" and talking to a lot of people about it. Can't stress that enough. Find out what you want to do, then lobby the shit out of it.

However, be careful! When I finally got "the job" at 125k+ year (coming from less than 50) I felt absolutely rich and spent money like it was going out of style. I bought cars, clothes, apartments, etc. It got so bad that I was in worse debt making the bigger money than I was previously. Hence the "Lifestyle Deflation" username.

But the relentless pursuit of career goals is still worthwhile. I've continued that and it's worked well. Just be careful you don't inflate your lifestyle when you get more money than you thought possible!

Lifestyle Deflation

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Re: How do people make $100+ salary?
« Reply #318 on: January 28, 2018, 09:47:49 PM »
By the way, the relentless pursuit of a position works!

Let's say you want to be CEO of a $1 billion+ company. Making great money, controlling the direction for a large organization, being "the guy" who is responsible for everything. Let's say this is what you want to do, and you're willing to do everything it takes to get there.

But there are only a few thousand of these jobs in the US. And you will be competing with the best of the best to get there. It will take rising up through the ranks of individual contributor, to management levels, to executive levels, and beyond. Everyone who has the same ambition will be fighting for the same roles, all the way up.

The most relentless will win. So if you have big ambitions, you can't be afraid to be relentless. Do what it takes to win -- if that means moving to other companies, getting X degree, doing what you perceive to be ridiculously self-promoting things, do them. Life is short, self-promote the hell out of the great things you do.

My ambition in life is to be said CEO, and you can be damn sure I'm doing these things every day to get there. And I will get there. I don't know exactly the method in which it'll happen, or where it'll be, but I have zero doubt that it'll happen.

My short-term plan is to rise in rank at a megacorp, likely to director level (2-4 years), then take a higher role (VP) at a smaller company (1-2 years). From there, I will be able to get an equal VP spot at a large company (2-3 years), then move into a CxO role at a smaller company (1-2 years).

At that point I will likely take a SVP/President role at a large company (1-2 years) and then become CEO of a smaller company (3-5 years). Then I'll take my success as the CEO of the smaller company to become the CEO of the larger company.

This plan puts me as the CEO of a large company in ~17 years or so, at around age 50. Will it happen exactly as planned? Probably not. But I know where I'm heading. Do you?

Paul der Krake

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Re: How do people make $100+ salary?
« Reply #319 on: January 28, 2018, 10:23:26 PM »
Are you sure you are on the right forum?

Lifestyle Deflation

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Re: How do people make $100+ salary?
« Reply #320 on: January 28, 2018, 10:35:42 PM »
Are you sure you are on the right forum?
100% yes. The beauty of my upward-or-bust strategy is that if there's too much bullshit/politics/etc at whatever level you're at, you can always FIRE.

And if you can take it, there's a lot of money to be made, perhaps for a Fat-FIRE. Or you can always go back to whatever level you're comfortable at to finish your career. Many options.

seattlecyclone

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Re: How do people make $100+ salary?
« Reply #321 on: January 28, 2018, 11:21:25 PM »
Sure, I guess if you honestly enjoy putting in the long hours and playing the corporate politics needed to get to that level, knock yourself out. If there's really nothing that would bring you greater happiness than seeing your name before the letters "CEO" on a business card printed by a major corporation, I wish you all the best. If only we could all see our futures as clearly.

For me, given my spending patterns I would have an eight-digit net worth perhaps ten years into your 17-year plan. Before even reaching that point I would be doing some serious soul searching about whether advancing further in my career was really the way I wanted to spend my finite time on this planet.

Malkynn

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Re: How do people make $100+ salary?
« Reply #322 on: January 29, 2018, 04:21:48 AM »
Sure, I guess if you honestly enjoy putting in the long hours and playing the corporate politics needed to get to that level, knock yourself out. If there's really nothing that would bring you greater happiness than seeing your name before the letters "CEO" on a business card printed by a major corporation, I wish you all the best. If only we could all see our futures as clearly.

For me, given my spending patterns I would have an eight-digit net worth perhaps ten years into your 17-year plan. Before even reaching that point I would be doing some serious soul searching about whether advancing further in my career was really the way I wanted to spend my finite time on this planet.

Some people get a lot of joy out of being shot-callers and having a much broader impact.


Jaguar Paw

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Re: How do people make $100+ salary?
« Reply #323 on: January 29, 2018, 07:03:05 AM »
quick note on my pension: We have the rule of 70. In order to draw your pension, your age plus years of service has to equal 70 or more. I joined at 22 so at 46 I'll have 24 years on. 46 plus 24 equals 70 so I'd be able to leave and draw pension. we get 2.25% for the first 20 years and an added 2% pension every year we work after that. We also have a 457 plan as well, which is maxed out and can be drawn whenever we leave.

Camarillo Brillo

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Re: How do people make $100+ salary?
« Reply #324 on: January 29, 2018, 08:03:42 AM »
By the way, the relentless pursuit of a position works!

Let's say you want to be CEO of a $1 billion+ company. Making great money, controlling the direction for a large organization, being "the guy" who is responsible for everything. Let's say this is what you want to do, and you're willing to do everything it takes to get there.

But there are only a few thousand of these jobs in the US. And you will be competing with the best of the best to get there. It will take rising up through the ranks of individual contributor, to management levels, to executive levels, and beyond. Everyone who has the same ambition will be fighting for the same roles, all the way up.

The most relentless will win. So if you have big ambitions, you can't be afraid to be relentless. Do what it takes to win -- if that means moving to other companies, getting X degree, doing what you perceive to be ridiculously self-promoting things, do them. Life is short, self-promote the hell out of the great things you do.

My ambition in life is to be said CEO, and you can be damn sure I'm doing these things every day to get there. And I will get there. I don't know exactly the method in which it'll happen, or where it'll be, but I have zero doubt that it'll happen.

My short-term plan is to rise in rank at a megacorp, likely to director level (2-4 years), then take a higher role (VP) at a smaller company (1-2 years). From there, I will be able to get an equal VP spot at a large company (2-3 years), then move into a CxO role at a smaller company (1-2 years).

At that point I will likely take a SVP/President role at a large company (1-2 years) and then become CEO of a smaller company (3-5 years). Then I'll take my success as the CEO of the smaller company to become the CEO of the larger company.

This plan puts me as the CEO of a large company in ~17 years or so, at around age 50. Will it happen exactly as planned? Probably not. But I know where I'm heading. Do you?
I love your outlook.  If you're goal is truly to become CEO of a large company you have a solid plan, and it certainly improves your odds of succeeding.

My goal was to never be a CEO but, rather, a VP at a medium size company.  I had a similar plan as you, and it worked out perfectly.  I was Manager at small company at 28, Director at small company at 32, Director at larger company at 37, VP at small company at 40, VP at medium size company at 45, and VP at a larger company at 50.

I never wanted to rise to CEO because with few exceptions, CEO's seem to be miserable. In general, they have few true friends, are workaholics, have shitty family lives, and have shitty ethics.  Of course, some are not like that, and I hope you're one of them.

Good luck.

slackmax

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Re: How do people make $100+ salary?
« Reply #325 on: January 29, 2018, 08:10:06 AM »
Maybe someone has already mentioned this, but not everyone has the grey matter ( IQ) to be a good IT person, lawyer, doctor.  No matter how hard-working they might be.

I was a decent, competent programmer in my working days, but it was often a struggle, Took work home and worked for free just to finish on time, when the assignment was tough. But I survived.

Point is, make sure you are naturally gifted in that high-paying field before you spend the bucks to get training. And please note that even if you do well in training, the field you train for may be much tougher in the actual doing of the job than the training was.   

Not saying I would have been better off in a different field, but I noticed some other programmers having a much easier time of it, always finishing early, never stressing out, asking for more challenging assignments. G*d-darned naturally gifted jerks!   

sol

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Re: How do people make $100+ salary?
« Reply #326 on: January 29, 2018, 08:31:48 AM »
I noticed some other programmers having a much easier time of it, always finishing early, never stressing out, asking for more challenging assignments. G*d-darned naturally gifted jerks!   

I am very strongly of the opinion that no one is ever "gifted" at a learned skill.  Every single human baby is born useless, and we all have to learn how to do absolutely everything.  Talent is something you earn with long practice, not something you are born with.

You can be gifted with physical traits, like height or big hands, that make some skills easier.  A talented basketball player was not born knowing how to dunk and neither were you.  Everyone starts out the same.  "Talent" is the result of your life experience, not the cause of it.

My kids sometimes try to tell me they are bad at something because they are not talented, not gifted, not as good as other kids.  And without a single exception thus far, the other  person who they think is unfairly gifted has actually put in thousands of hours of passionate practice to acquire the skill that they envy.  My 14 year old is just now, for the first time, finally figuring out that hard work pays off in ways that make him look talented to other kids.

ender

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Re: How do people make $100+ salary?
« Reply #327 on: January 29, 2018, 08:41:54 AM »
I noticed some other programmers having a much easier time of it, always finishing early, never stressing out, asking for more challenging assignments. G*d-darned naturally gifted jerks!   

I am very strongly of the opinion that no one is ever "gifted" at a learned skill.  Every single human baby is born useless, and we all have to learn how to do absolutely everything.  Talent is something you earn with long practice, not something you are born with.

You can be gifted with physical traits, like height or big hands, that make some skills easier.  A talented basketball player was not born knowing how to dunk and neither were you.  Everyone starts out the same.  "Talent" is the result of your life experience, not the cause of it.

My kids sometimes try to tell me they are bad at something because they are not talented, not gifted, not as good as other kids.  And without a single exception thus far, the other  person who they think is unfairly gifted has actually put in thousands of hours of passionate practice to acquire the skill that they envy.  My 14 year old is just now, for the first time, finally figuring out that hard work pays off in ways that make him look talented to other kids.

It's worth recognizing that by the time most people are self-aware enough to understand this, they have most of their childhood behind them.

I tend to find slackmax's attitude worth thinking through. Everyone has natural inclinations towards various things, perhaps resulting from their childhood, how they were parented, or just the things they gravitated to throughout their life.

Finding a career that has activities you are either gifted in or drawn to out of curiosity is a major boon for overall life satisfaction.

It's far easier to cultivate and grow skills in areas you have personal interest in, too.

mizzourah2006

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Re: How do people make $100+ salary?
« Reply #328 on: January 29, 2018, 08:47:18 AM »
Ph.D. in a STEM field = $$$

This + luck/serendipity. In addition to the PhD I have really worked on my skills in data analysis and programming (which has recently turned into the buzzwords of Data Science, Machine Learning/AI). I'm also lucky enough to be in a low cost of living area and make between $160-$170k after bonus and equity. According to the CNN COLA calculator it would be the equivalent to over $400k in the San Fran area.

Honestly never thought I would be where I'm at less than 5 years after finishing a PhD, but I will take it :)

ender

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Re: How do people make $100+ salary?
« Reply #329 on: January 29, 2018, 08:49:28 AM »
This makes me want to start a thread with polls on "what's your SF salary?" and "what's your <small town in midwest> salary?" :)

JLee

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Re: How do people make $100+ salary?
« Reply #330 on: January 29, 2018, 08:54:30 AM »
This makes me want to start a thread with polls on "what's your SF salary?" and "what's your <small town in midwest> salary?" :)

COL calculator says I'd have to get $232k/yr to equal what I make here...which is more than double, and I'm 15 minutes from Manhattan.

Damn.

mizzourah2006

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Re: How do people make $100+ salary?
« Reply #331 on: January 29, 2018, 08:59:36 AM »
This makes me want to start a thread with polls on "what's your SF salary?" and "what's your <small town in midwest> salary?" :)

I feel like some standard is needed given the discrepancy in cost of living across the US. I chose San Fran because many of the big data jobs are popping up there and our company has a campus out there. But yeah, NYC, DC, Chicago, etc. are all viable comp options for a thread. I think it can also help people put into perspective that $60k in a place like Kansas City, MO is a decent chunk of change when you compare the cost of living of KC vs. a place like Washington DC.

ender

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Re: How do people make $100+ salary?
« Reply #332 on: January 29, 2018, 09:52:10 AM »

tooqk4u22

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Re: How do people make $100+ salary?
« Reply #333 on: January 29, 2018, 10:17:24 AM »
I noticed some other programmers having a much easier time of it, always finishing early, never stressing out, asking for more challenging assignments. G*d-darned naturally gifted jerks!   

I am very strongly of the opinion that no one is ever "gifted" at a learned skill.  Every single human baby is born useless, and we all have to learn how to do absolutely everything.  Talent is something you earn with long practice, not something you are born with.

You can be gifted with physical traits, like height or big hands, that make some skills easier.  A talented basketball player was not born knowing how to dunk and neither were you.  Everyone starts out the same.  "Talent" is the result of your life experience, not the cause of it.

My kids sometimes try to tell me they are bad at something because they are not talented, not gifted, not as good as other kids.  And without a single exception thus far, the other  person who they think is unfairly gifted has actually put in thousands of hours of passionate practice to acquire the skill that they envy.  My 14 year old is just now, for the first time, finally figuring out that hard work pays off in ways that make him look talented to other kids.

Sure but you can be gifted with more than big hands or being 8 feet tall.  You can also be gifted with a better performing brain (ie higher IQ) - while everyone is born knowing nothing and have to learn everything there is a great variance in each persons ability to learn.  Some brains still operate with an abacus and others act like the latest CPU.  So don't think for a minute that this doesn't come into play.  Also, my personal CPU (brain) may be more suited to math and another may be more suited to art....so they might have the same computing power, the outcomes can be very different depending on the task.

But to your point, a person who is gifted will likely not achieve much without effort (might be better than the average person but that's about it). Conversely, no matter how hard a person works/practices/studies they will never be as good as the gifted one, especially if the gifted one puts in some work too.

dustinst22

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Re: How do people make $100+ salary?
« Reply #334 on: January 29, 2018, 10:19:32 AM »
The thing with the Cost of Living Calculator, you have to see how they are calculating it (the breakdown).

I did a category comparison, and I think for mustachians the difference is not going to be anywhere close to an average person, as they already optimize all the categories regardless of where they live.  Sure, there are some uncontrollables, but even when I looked at say housing for example, it does not create as drastic of a difference in total cost as the calculator is coming up with.  I live in a very HCOL area and for fun compared what the yearly cost differences would be if I lived in an extremely low cost of living area, and while the difference was nothing to sneeze at, it wasn't even close to what the calculator claimed.

ender

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Re: How do people make $100+ salary?
« Reply #335 on: January 29, 2018, 10:27:02 AM »
The thing with the Cost of Living Calculator, you have to see how they are calculating it (the breakdown).

I did a category comparison, and I think for mustachians the difference is not going to be anywhere close to an average person, as they already optimize all the categories regardless of where they live.  Sure, there are some uncontrollables, but even when I looked at say housing for example, it does not create as drastic of a difference in total cost as the calculator is coming up with.  I live in a very HCOL area and for fun compared what the yearly cost differences would be if I lived in an extremely low cost of living area, and while the difference was nothing to sneeze at, it wasn't even close to what the calculator claimed.

I've found that if you maintain the same standard of living it's pretty close to accurate.

The problem is that it's not reasonable to do this in many cases. My 2500ish square foot 1/3 acre lot house backing to a park/woods which cost $230k in the Midwest with a ~5 min commute would be absurdly expensive to have in SF area. But.. that would compensate pretty well with the $100k+ in additional salary it says I need to make there.


dustinst22

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Re: How do people make $100+ salary?
« Reply #336 on: January 29, 2018, 10:31:33 AM »
Okay, yes that makes sense.

It's just a bit misleading to me as I know I will adjust my living situation based on where I live.

For example, here near the beach, it makes absolutely no sense to purchase a property, so you rent.  Sure, if I insisted on buying precisely the same type of house I would in Columbus, OH, yeah the calculator would probably be dead on.

That said, I compared my current situation (renting an apartment) with the low cost of living areas, and while the rent was pretty substantial, that was the only category (other than taxes) that impacted my cost of living that was worth noting.  The salary difference it was projecting based on this was not even close to accurate.  I was somewhat interested in this because I can geo-arbitrage my work (i work from home), but the quality of life to me is too important to do so, and the difference in cost is not substantial enough.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2018, 10:35:39 AM by dustinst22 »

mm1970

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Re: How do people make $100+ salary?
« Reply #337 on: January 29, 2018, 10:33:25 AM »
Replying to a few different people so I won't quote anyone in particular.

First I'll start with whoever was talking about officers that make around 100K in the NYC suburbs..The price of living in the northeast is obviously crazy and it is fairly obvious that the 100K goes a lot further down here in LCOL Texas.

On the sweet/fun part: The job is awesome! In 10 years I have worked Patrol, Gangs, and now Human Trafficking. I get paid what I consider way too much to investigate crimes and put really bad people in jail for decades. I get to use intelligence, people skills, acting and outside of the box thinking plus I do not have anyone micromanaging me, which is a plus. Add in the fact that I get 4 weeks of vacation time that I have to use every year, plus another 6 weeks of vacation time that if I don't use keep accruing and it's super sweet. Add in that at 25 years on the job (I'll be 47), I get paid 55% of my salary for the rest of my life and then I just feel spoiled.

 I'm sure you work hard and also in a dangerous profession, thank you.

 But if anyone wonders why goverments are broke, just look at this.
He get's paid a high wage for working an 80% schedule, 10 paid weeks (off).
 He didn't say, but gov jobs usually have a great health insurance plan.
And then to support him with 55% of his salary for what could easily be 35 years probably
with health insurance, when he has paid nothing into it, is just legislators giving away
other peoples money, Taxpayers money.
/rant is over/
The typical sheriff or fire department retiree in our county retires after 30 years.  That's age 50-55, and their pensions are around $180-240k a year, when you add up pension + medical care.  Often these guys are retired and collecting pensions for longer than they were working.  It's nuts.  Mostly because they are underfunded, and we have to cut county and city services to pay for them.

Has to change, and pretty quickly!
« Last Edit: January 29, 2018, 10:37:59 AM by mm1970 »

mizzourah2006

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Re: How do people make $100+ salary?
« Reply #338 on: January 29, 2018, 10:36:34 AM »
The thing with the Cost of Living Calculator, you have to see how they are calculating it (the breakdown).

I did a category comparison, and I think for mustachians the difference is not going to be anywhere close to an average person, as they already optimize all the categories regardless of where they live.  Sure, there are some uncontrollables, but even when I looked at say housing for example, it does not create as drastic of a difference in total cost as the calculator is coming up with.  I live in a very HCOL area and for fun compared what the yearly cost differences would be if I lived in an extremely low cost of living area, and while the difference was nothing to sneeze at, it wasn't even close to what the calculator claimed.

I've found that if you maintain the same standard of living it's pretty close to accurate.

The problem is that it's not reasonable to do this in many cases. My 2500ish square foot 1/3 acre lot house backing to a park/woods which cost $230k in the Midwest with a ~5 min commute would be absurdly expensive to have in SF area. But.. that would compensate pretty well with the $100k+ in additional salary it says I need to make there.

This is what I've noticed too. I think the assumption that all Mustachians are 100% optimal is a little extreme. If I wanted to be perfectly optimal I would sell my 2.2k sq ft home that my family of 4 lives in and move into a 1.2k sq ft home. But, while that would be optimal I don't know that my wife would like raising two kids in that small of a space. So while, one could change from a 2.2k sq ft house to a 1k sq ft apartment if they moved and only end up paying 2-3x more for housing :) that wouldn't be a completely equivalent exchange. There are also non-monetary things to consider that factor into the time = money motto. For example, I have friends that work in NYC and bought a home over an hour outside of NYC for the space they wanted. They commute up to 2 hours each day. My commute in bad traffic is 20 minutes each way, if I hit it right I can get from my house to the parking lot in about 12 minutes. It's definitely different lifestyles though and it is possible to live well below the suggested cost of living for any given area if you would like to.

gerardc

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Re: How do people make $100+ salary?
« Reply #339 on: January 29, 2018, 10:45:16 AM »
I am very strongly of the opinion that no one is ever "gifted" at a learned skill.  Every single human baby is born useless, and we all have to learn how to do absolutely everything.  Talent is something you earn with long practice, not something you are born with.

You can be gifted with physical traits, like height or big hands, that make some skills easier.  A talented basketball player was not born knowing how to dunk and neither were you.  Everyone starts out the same.  "Talent" is the result of your life experience, not the cause of it.

My kids sometimes try to tell me they are bad at something because they are not talented, not gifted, not as good as other kids.  And without a single exception thus far, the other  person who they think is unfairly gifted has actually put in thousands of hours of passionate practice to acquire the skill that they envy.  My 14 year old is just now, for the first time, finally figuring out that hard work pays off in ways that make him look talented to other kids.

See the book Talent is overrated.

Agree that practice is the most important factor, but being gifted just means having a personality that makes practice more enjoyable, more tolerable, or more rewarding. E.g. you're introverted and OCD, you'll like solving math problems for hours on end without stopping, and you'll eventually get skilled. Some people would get sick doing that, so practice is such a grudge to them. Athletes need much practice but those with better health will be able to push further without issues.

Tabaxus

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Re: How do people make $100+ salary?
« Reply #340 on: January 29, 2018, 11:53:17 AM »
The idea that inherent traits, 100% luck, don't have material impact on success is ridiculous.  As others have said, IQ, size, certain aspects of athletic prowess that are genetic rather than trained, eyesight, hearing.  Massive benefits associated with being born into a family without food scarcity.  Educated family.  Not having a parent die early.  Systemic benefits for white men. Access to a strong school system.  Exposure to violence at home early in life.  Money scarcity at home early in life. It goes on and on and  on.   

Now, it doesn't do much good to throw one's hands up in the air and say that it's not worth trying because everything is up to luck anyway.  You can be born with every advantage and fall on your face for lack of putting in any elbow grease.  You can overcome having started further behind than others--plenty of people do that every day.  Some obstacles are more difficult to overcome than others and, at the extreme, some obstacles are impossible to overcome.  So  celebrate how your hard work contributed to your success, but acknowledge the role that luck played in your success.  People that don't acknowledge the significant role luck and genetics plays are fooling themselves (and others, often enough). 

sol

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Re: How do people make $100+ salary?
« Reply #341 on: January 29, 2018, 12:09:43 PM »
You can also be gifted with a better performing brain (ie higher IQ) - while everyone is born knowing nothing and have to learn everything there is a great variance in each persons ability to learn.  Some brains still operate with an abacus and others act like the latest CPU.  So don't think for a minute that this doesn't come into play.  Also, my personal CPU (brain) may be more suited to math and another may be more suited to art....

I believe that all cognitively normal baby brains are equivalent.  At one hour old, no healthy child is any smarter than any other healthy child.

By the time you start school there are absolutely differences.  Some kids will have done four years of Montessori preschool and some will have watched four years of cartoons, but those are also life experiences and not the result of innate talent.

The key point here is to recognize that when a student (or employee) struggles, it is not because they are dumb.  We all start out dumb.  It is only because they lack the required practice or experiences to achieve subject mastery.  I guarantee you that the NFL quarterback has thrown more paases than you before his first day on the job, and run more laps and drills, and spent more time in the weight room than you.  He's not "gifted" unless his one-hour-old self showed the same gift.  The same is true for efficient computer programmers or kids who breeze through AP chemistry.  They all learned and you can too.

Talent is earned.  Talent is just skill made to look easy by practice.  If you want to be good at something, stand up and put in the hard time instead of lamenting your apparent lack of natural gifts.  "I'm not gifted" is an excuse repeated by people who don't believe in their own ability to succeed.

JLee

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Re: How do people make $100+ salary?
« Reply #342 on: January 29, 2018, 12:15:22 PM »
You can also be gifted with a better performing brain (ie higher IQ) - while everyone is born knowing nothing and have to learn everything there is a great variance in each persons ability to learn.  Some brains still operate with an abacus and others act like the latest CPU.  So don't think for a minute that this doesn't come into play.  Also, my personal CPU (brain) may be more suited to math and another may be more suited to art....

I believe that all cognitively normal baby brains are equivalent.  At one hour old, no healthy child is any smarter than any other healthy child.

By the time you start school there are absolutely differences.  Some kids will have done four years of Montessori preschool and some will have watched four years of cartoons, but those are also life experiences and not the result of innate talent.

The key point here is to recognize that when a student (or employee) struggles, it is not because they are dumb.  We all start out dumb.  It is only because they lack the required practice or experiences to achieve subject mastery.  I guarantee you that the NFL quarterback has thrown more paases than you before his first day on the job, and run more laps and drills, and spent more time in the weight room than you.  He's not "gifted" unless his one-hour-old self showed the same gift.  The same is true for efficient computer programmers or kids who breeze through AP chemistry.  They all learned and you can too.

Talent is earned.  Talent is just skill made to look easy by practice.  If you want to be good at something, stand up and put in the hard time instead of lamenting your apparent lack of natural gifts.  "I'm not gifted" is an excuse repeated by people who don't believe in their own ability to succeed.

I'm not sure I agree. There are some things I've done that I learned incredibly quickly.  Horseback riding and fencing come to mind. There are some things that are hard for me, but I work my ass off to learn it anyway - e.g. dance.  I can absolutely tell that I have a natural ability to learn some things easier than others.

vertkurt

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Re: How do people make $100+ salary?
« Reply #343 on: January 29, 2018, 12:16:42 PM »
I would disagree about the Talent portion. Take Leo Messi and Christiano Ronaldo for instance. Messi is a natural born talent while Ronaldo put in a shitload of hard work to achieve similar results imo. The two play different styles of the game, but Messi is the one that makes it look effortless.

Tabaxus

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Re: How do people make $100+ salary?
« Reply #344 on: January 29, 2018, 12:23:30 PM »
You can also be gifted with a better performing brain (ie higher IQ) - while everyone is born knowing nothing and have to learn everything there is a great variance in each persons ability to learn.  Some brains still operate with an abacus and others act like the latest CPU.  So don't think for a minute that this doesn't come into play.  Also, my personal CPU (brain) may be more suited to math and another may be more suited to art....

I believe that all cognitively normal baby brains are equivalent.  At one hour old, no healthy child is any smarter than any other healthy child.

By the time you start school there are absolutely differences.  Some kids will have done four years of Montessori preschool and some will have watched four years of cartoons, but those are also life experiences and not the result of innate talent.

The key point here is to recognize that when a student (or employee) struggles, it is not because they are dumb.  We all start out dumb.  It is only because they lack the required practice or experiences to achieve subject mastery.  I guarantee you that the NFL quarterback has thrown more paases than you before his first day on the job, and run more laps and drills, and spent more time in the weight room than you.  He's not "gifted" unless his one-hour-old self showed the same gift.  The same is true for efficient computer programmers or kids who breeze through AP chemistry.  They all learned and you can too.

Talent is earned.  Talent is just skill made to look easy by practice.  If you want to be good at something, stand up and put in the hard time instead of lamenting your apparent lack of natural gifts.  "I'm not gifted" is an excuse repeated by people who don't believe in their own ability to succeed.

Setting aside the premise (that I think is extremely dubious but I don't have ready research one way or the other) that all "cognitively normal" people start at the same baseline, are you really going to blame the kid that gets a terrible start (watching cartoons all day) for the fact that the kid got a terrible start?  Much of that "terrible start" stuff cannot be overcome, and goes directly back into the "luck" bucket from the perspective of that kid.  (The fact that it's attributable to a failure of the parents, or perhaps the fact that both parents are minimum wage workers having to work multiple jobs, or there's just a single parent, or, or, or, has nothing to do with whether it's bad luck from the kid's perspective.)

mizzourah2006

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Re: How do people make $100+ salary?
« Reply #345 on: January 29, 2018, 12:29:20 PM »
You can also be gifted with a better performing brain (ie higher IQ) - while everyone is born knowing nothing and have to learn everything there is a great variance in each persons ability to learn.  Some brains still operate with an abacus and others act like the latest CPU.  So don't think for a minute that this doesn't come into play.  Also, my personal CPU (brain) may be more suited to math and another may be more suited to art....

I believe that all cognitively normal baby brains are equivalent.  At one hour old, no healthy child is any smarter than any other healthy child.

By the time you start school there are absolutely differences.  Some kids will have done four years of Montessori preschool and some will have watched four years of cartoons, but those are also life experiences and not the result of innate talent.

The key point here is to recognize that when a student (or employee) struggles, it is not because they are dumb.  We all start out dumb.  It is only because they lack the required practice or experiences to achieve subject mastery.  I guarantee you that the NFL quarterback has thrown more paases than you before his first day on the job, and run more laps and drills, and spent more time in the weight room than you.  He's not "gifted" unless his one-hour-old self showed the same gift.  The same is true for efficient computer programmers or kids who breeze through AP chemistry.  They all learned and you can too.

Talent is earned.  Talent is just skill made to look easy by practice.  If you want to be good at something, stand up and put in the hard time instead of lamenting your apparent lack of natural gifts.  "I'm not gifted" is an excuse repeated by people who don't believe in their own ability to succeed.

There are definitely genetic factors involved in things like cognitive ability. There have been plenty of studies that have provided evidence supporting that statement.

Here are a few that come to mind:

https://www.nature.com/articles/nn758

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2740717/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4006996/

There are definitely extremely strong influences coming from ones environment as well, but I don't think there is enough evidence to suggest every single cognitively normal baby has an identical baseline cognitive ability and the rest is up to their environment. The last study does a good job of discussing the interaction between genetics and environment, which provides evidence that the better your environment the more important the genetic differences become.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2018, 12:30:57 PM by mizzourah2006 »

simonsez

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Re: How do people make $100+ salary?
« Reply #346 on: January 29, 2018, 12:32:08 PM »
You can also be gifted with a better performing brain (ie higher IQ) - while everyone is born knowing nothing and have to learn everything there is a great variance in each persons ability to learn.  Some brains still operate with an abacus and others act like the latest CPU.  So don't think for a minute that this doesn't come into play.  Also, my personal CPU (brain) may be more suited to math and another may be more suited to art....

I believe that all cognitively normal baby brains are equivalent.
How are you defining this?  If you use IQ as a proxy I would imagine one standard deviation from the mean would suffice (85 to 115)?  Or do you just mean "not severely damaged brains" in which case it's like everyone above a 70?

It's an interesting claim but I will disagree.  I get that people learn in different ways but my experience as a trainer/supervisor provides a good lab setting to watch different people try tasks that are completely new and I would say there are absolutely brain differences within normal brains.  Disclaimer: maybe some of the people I've assumed were normal brained people are indeed cognitively below average which would explain the disparate differences in grasping concepts and applying it to work.

big_owl

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Re: How do people make $100+ salary?
« Reply #347 on: January 29, 2018, 12:39:39 PM »
You can also be gifted with a better performing brain (ie higher IQ) - while everyone is born knowing nothing and have to learn everything there is a great variance in each persons ability to learn.  Some brains still operate with an abacus and others act like the latest CPU.  So don't think for a minute that this doesn't come into play.  Also, my personal CPU (brain) may be more suited to math and another may be more suited to art....

I believe that all cognitively normal baby brains are equivalent.  At one hour old, no healthy child is any smarter than any other healthy child.

By the time you start school there are absolutely differences.  Some kids will have done four years of Montessori preschool and some will have watched four years of cartoons, but those are also life experiences and not the result of innate talent.

The key point here is to recognize that when a student (or employee) struggles, it is not because they are dumb.  We all start out dumb.  It is only because they lack the required practice or experiences to achieve subject mastery.  I guarantee you that the NFL quarterback has thrown more paases than you before his first day on the job, and run more laps and drills, and spent more time in the weight room than you.  He's not "gifted" unless his one-hour-old self showed the same gift.  The same is true for efficient computer programmers or kids who breeze through AP chemistry.  They all learned and you can too.

Talent is earned.  Talent is just skill made to look easy by practice.  If you want to be good at something, stand up and put in the hard time instead of lamenting your apparent lack of natural gifts.  "I'm not gifted" is an excuse repeated by people who don't believe in their own ability to succeed.

This doesn't make sense to me.  What about high reactive vs. low reactive individuals?  Studies suggest this is due to amygdala biology (from birth) and the two groups perceive data differently and interact with their environments very differently.  You might argue that a high reactive person technically has the same intelligence as a low reactive person, but their experience in life is going to be drastically different and they are not going to be naturally successful at the same things as a low reactive person, nature vs. nurture.  It's the reason I'm on the verge of a nervous breakdown prior to a big speech and my low(er) reactive wife loves it and kicks ass.  I *can* give a good speech, but it requires easily 20x more practice than my wife and I have to memorize every word I am going to say, where she can just flow with it and it's 100% natural.  She's got better biology for it.  It doesn't matter how many speeches I give, that's the way I'm wired.

As for physical ability, I'm not sure you're arguing it but genetics obviously play a huge role in athletic success.  Skeletal structure, joint mobility, muscle attachments, coordination.  I'll go with something I'm very familiar with and is very obvious - bodybuilding.  You can take all the steroids you want and if you train 6 hours a day and never get injured you'll still never look anything like a Schwarzenegger, Coleman, or Wheeler.  Because they're just better, and nothing you could ever do in the world would be able to make up for that.  Those dudes got lucky in the genetic lottery and took advantage of it. 


Malkynn

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Re: How do people make $100+ salary?
« Reply #348 on: January 29, 2018, 12:41:10 PM »
You can also be gifted with a better performing brain (ie higher IQ) - while everyone is born knowing nothing and have to learn everything there is a great variance in each persons ability to learn.  Some brains still operate with an abacus and others act like the latest CPU.  So don't think for a minute that this doesn't come into play.  Also, my personal CPU (brain) may be more suited to math and another may be more suited to art....

I believe that all cognitively normal baby brains are equivalent.  At one hour old, no healthy child is any smarter than any other healthy child.

By the time you start school there are absolutely differences.  Some kids will have done four years of Montessori preschool and some will have watched four years of cartoons, but those are also life experiences and not the result of innate talent.

The key point here is to recognize that when a student (or employee) struggles, it is not because they are dumb.  We all start out dumb.  It is only because they lack the required practice or experiences to achieve subject mastery.  I guarantee you that the NFL quarterback has thrown more paases than you before his first day on the job, and run more laps and drills, and spent more time in the weight room than you.  He's not "gifted" unless his one-hour-old self showed the same gift.  The same is true for efficient computer programmers or kids who breeze through AP chemistry.  They all learned and you can too.

Talent is earned.  Talent is just skill made to look easy by practice.  If you want to be good at something, stand up and put in the hard time instead of lamenting your apparent lack of natural gifts.  "I'm not gifted" is an excuse repeated by people who don't believe in their own ability to succeed.

Umm...

It's been about a decade since I took developmental psychology, developmental neurobiology, and child language acquisition, but I don't remember the research supporting the presupposition that all morphologically normal infant brains are the same and have the exact same plasticity.

I would look up supporting papers, but I'm way too lazy, and as I said, my neuro knowledge is pretty dated.

tooqk4u22

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Re: How do people make $100+ salary?
« Reply #349 on: January 29, 2018, 12:47:24 PM »
I believe that all cognitively normal baby brains are equivalent.  At one hour old, no healthy child is any smarter than any other healthy child.

By the time you start school there are absolutely differences.  Some kids will have done four years of Montessori preschool and some will have watched four years of cartoons, but those are also life experiences and not the result of innate talent.

You are conflating exposure to development opportunities with ability to retain/absorb/learn things.  I 100% agree that when comparing people of similar traits, or even those within a reasonable factor (maybe +/- 15% however you measure that), then effort and exposure (environment) matter more.  But there genetic makeup (whether intelligence or physical attributes) matter - and a one hour hold baby may appear equal but the DNA would probably suggest otherwise.  And keep in mind that the brain isn't fully developed until after teens.

The key point here is to recognize that when a student (or employee) struggles, it is not because they are dumb.  We all start out dumb.  It is only because they lack the required practice or experiences to achieve subject mastery.  I guarantee you that the NFL quarterback has thrown more paases than you before his first day on the job, and run more laps and drills, and spent more time in the weight room than you.  He's not "gifted" unless his one-hour-old self showed the same gift.  The same is true for efficient computer programmers or kids who breeze through AP chemistry.  They all learned and you can too.

Pretty sure I could have thrown 1,000,000 passes a day, every day, and I still wouldn't be quarterback (let alone NFL) material.  Sure, I can and do understand the how to throw it, the mechanics, the physics, even the wind.....but for some reason I just couldn't throw it the same way.  Also not being 6'4" kind of hurts my chances....and there is the mental.  Tom Brady is as good as he is because of practice and ability....he is not the fastest or most athletic.  But his processing ability is above all others.  Oh yeah...he is 6'4"

Talent is earned.  Talent is just skill made to look easy by practice.  If you want to be good at something, stand up and put in the hard time instead of lamenting your apparent lack of natural gifts.  "I'm not gifted" is an excuse repeated by people who don't believe in their own ability to succeed.

Yes.  There are plenty of people out there that wasted their talent (lazy) and/or didn't have the opportunity (environmental exposure). But you are crazy if you think pure ability/talent/genetics play no role.