Author Topic: America on the precipice: What are you doing?  (Read 19621 times)

ctuser1

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Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
« Reply #250 on: January 20, 2021, 10:08:15 AM »
I do not equate banning slavery, child labor or most other laws with socialism.  Anything the government does is not automatically socialism. 

Southern thinkers *did* equate abolition with "socialism". Google "Louisa McCord". She loved using Proudhon as a socialist foil to prop up her inhumane ideas.

And she was not alone!

If you are an "originalist" in the same mold of the judges that conservatives like to get in the court, then arguing the exact point that you did is - let's say - inconsistent.

It is quite common-sense to see why southerners thought that way. Blacks were property to them, and a means of production, in the same manner goats and cows are today. If you take that property away from them for "common good", that IS a textbook definition of socialism.

If you wanted to extend the same line of thinking to todays world (without equating the horrors of slavery to today's social malaise), then it is easy to see why some people think that their "right" to a private healthcare or guns is more important than common goods like preventing Sandy Hook, or providing healthcare for uninsured, etc.

« Last Edit: January 20, 2021, 10:16:22 AM by ctuser1 »

ericrugiero

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Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
« Reply #251 on: January 20, 2021, 10:25:15 AM »
It is quite common-sense to see why southerners thought that way. Blacks were property to them, and a means of production, in the same manner goats and cows are today. If you take that property away from them for "common good", that IS a textbook definition of socialism.

Sure, if you view blacks as property then outlawing slavery is socialism.  I can totally see how some misguided slave owners would call it socialism.  You and I view them as humans that are just as worthy as us anyone else.  That's why I view abolition as something we ethically had to do and not socialism. 

ericrugiero

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Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
« Reply #252 on: January 20, 2021, 10:31:33 AM »
I do not equate banning slavery, child labor or most other laws with socialism.  Anything the government does is not automatically socialism. 

If you are an "originalist" in the same mold of the judges that conservatives like to get in the court, then arguing the exact point that you did is - let's say - inconsistent.


I'm not following this argument.  Can you elaborate? 

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Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
« Reply #253 on: January 20, 2021, 10:39:14 AM »
It is quite common-sense to see why southerners thought that way. Blacks were property to them, and a means of production, in the same manner goats and cows are today. If you take that property away from them for "common good", that IS a textbook definition of socialism.

Sure, if you view blacks as property then outlawing slavery is socialism.  I can totally see how some misguided slave owners would call it socialism.  You and I view them as humans that are just as worthy as us anyone else.  That's why I view abolition as something we ethically had to do and not socialism.
Logically, given the then existing legal premise of slave ownership, sanctioned by the Constitution, abolition was both something that had to be done and socialism.

ctuser1

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Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
« Reply #254 on: January 20, 2021, 10:44:14 AM »
I do not equate banning slavery, child labor or most other laws with socialism.  Anything the government does is not automatically socialism. 

If you are an "originalist" in the same mold of the judges that conservatives like to get in the court, then arguing the exact point that you did is - let's say - inconsistent.


I'm not following this argument.  Can you elaborate?

Originalists come in a couple of flavors. Some tell us we have to use the original meaning extant at the time of writing laws/constitution. Some tell us we have to use the "intent" of the lawmakers over and above the textual meaning.

The second variety is more extremist. Scalia was of this type (despite whatever protestations he may have made). This is why he dictated he alone could decide the true intent over and above the text ("militia") of the second amendment in Heller and over and above other precedents - some of which were unanimous - for decades and centuries preceding him. 

Then of course there is a third group of judges who are textualists, and I consider that to be an honest and consistent thought process and hence respect that point of view even when I may not always agree. But they are not relevant for this discussion.

There was a specific legal "meaning" of the word "socialism" back in the day when much of the laws/constitution was written. If you are an originalist, you would be compelled to use that meaning in any legal context discussing those laws. If the context is "Civil Rights" laws, then the word "socialism" would not include abolition, per originalist logic. For much of the rest of the constitution and legal jurisprudence (e.g. "corporations are people", decided in early 1800's), it would.

Hence, if you make a blanket argument without nuance like you did, you would run afoul of Originalist dogma.

At least that is my - layman's, non-lawyer - reading.


ericrugiero

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Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
« Reply #255 on: January 20, 2021, 11:43:44 AM »
I do not equate banning slavery, child labor or most other laws with socialism.  Anything the government does is not automatically socialism. 

If you are an "originalist" in the same mold of the judges that conservatives like to get in the court, then arguing the exact point that you did is - let's say - inconsistent.


I'm not following this argument.  Can you elaborate?

Originalists come in a couple of flavors. Some tell us we have to use the original meaning extant at the time of writing laws/constitution. Some tell us we have to use the "intent" of the lawmakers over and above the textual meaning.

The second variety is more extremist. Scalia was of this type (despite whatever protestations he may have made). This is why he dictated he alone could decide the true intent over and above the text ("militia") of the second amendment in Heller and over and above other precedents - some of which were unanimous - for decades and centuries preceding him. 

Then of course there is a third group of judges who are textualists, and I consider that to be an honest and consistent thought process and hence respect that point of view even when I may not always agree. But they are not relevant for this discussion.

There was a specific legal "meaning" of the word "socialism" back in the day when much of the laws/constitution was written. If you are an originalist, you would be compelled to use that meaning in any legal context discussing those laws. If the context is "Civil Rights" laws, then the word "socialism" would not include abolition, per originalist logic. For much of the rest of the constitution and legal jurisprudence (e.g. "corporations are people", decided in early 1800's), it would.

Hence, if you make a blanket argument without nuance like you did, you would run afoul of Originalist dogma.

At least that is my - layman's, non-lawyer - reading.

OK.  I haven't done enough research on that to say I'm an originalist or textualist and have never claimed to be either.  I also don't know the specific legal meaning of socialism when the constitution was written.  I'm was using the modern merriam webster definition I posted above.  My basic point is that most of our laws (do not murder, do not steal, etc) aren't based on either socialism or capitalism.  They are based on some combination of the Bible and a more pragmatic approach of treating people well/fairly in order to have a stable society.  An example was given of abolition being socialism which makes sense if you consider black people property.  As I said above, they are not property so abolition is not socialism.  In general, I'm thinking we start with our laws and then choose capitalism, socialism, or some combination.

cerat0n1a

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Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
« Reply #256 on: January 20, 2021, 12:32:31 PM »
Sure, the government is involved in lots of things and we need them to provide roads, oversee electric infrastructure, oversee banking, etc.  I'm not at all saying we can have a pure capitalist society with no government oversite.  Some of that oversite is socialism.  But, from my experience, the things the government runs are less efficient than the things that are done in a free market. 

I do not equate banning slavery, child labor or most other laws with socialism.  Anything the government does is not automatically socialism. 

In my opinion, we should have socialistic policies where it's truly needed.  When we have a choice, we should favor capitalism because it rewards hard work and ingenuity which makes for a more successful society.

While I generally agree with what you say here, it's quite difficult to make the case that the US health system is anything like as efficient as the government run healthcare systems in other rich Western nations. If you measure healthcare spending as a percentage of GDP, the US spends almost double what places like New Zealand and the UK do, and at least 60-70% more than every EU country, in order to achieve overall health outcomes that are worse than just about every other Western country. You do have a lot more shiny offices and high-paid executives in insurance companies though.

Overall, US government spending is around 38% of GDP. That means the overall size of the government as a proportion of the economy wouldn't look wildly out of line in 'socialist' Europe - Netherlands & Spain are at 42%, UK at 39%, Ireland at 25%, Switzerland at 32% to pick a few at random. It's just that spending priorities are different - a government budget of $700 billion per year on defence isn't considered to be 'socialism'.

Also interesting to compare which things are run by governments and which are not. In the US, for example, you have a quasi-government corporation running railroads, same thing is done by private companies in many other countries. You have the government heavily involved in farm and home mortgage lending, which I don't believe happens anywhere in Europe. You have a government owned organisation which delivers letters and parcels, where many European equivalents are now just regular quoted public companies. I suspect if someone were to propose a government agency to do that today, it would be laughed away pretty quickly, but the United States Postal Service is one of the few government agencies mentioned in the original constitution.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2021, 12:34:14 PM by cerat0n1a »

ctuser1

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Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
« Reply #257 on: January 20, 2021, 12:37:43 PM »
Overall, US government spending is around 38% of GDP. That means the overall size of the government as a proportion of the economy wouldn't look wildly out of line in 'socialist' Europe - Netherlands & Spain are at 42%, UK at 39%, Ireland at 25%, Switzerland at 32% to pick a few at random. It's just that spending priorities are different - a government budget of $700 billion per year on defence isn't considered to be 'socialism'.

US GDP is much higher, per capita, than most of those "socialist" countries. So 38% of US GDP is not equal to 38% of France's GDP, e.g.

This further strengthens your overall argument. I just wanted to point this out because you were short selling it.

GuitarStv

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Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
« Reply #258 on: January 20, 2021, 12:41:04 PM »
An example was given of abolition being socialism which makes sense if you consider black people property.  As I said above, they are not property so abolition is not socialism.  In general, I'm thinking we start with our laws and then choose capitalism, socialism, or some combination.

You're cheating here.

so·cial·ism - a political and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.

The laws that ban slavery are created by the community as a whole to regulate and prevent free exchange (of slaves).  It exactly meets the definition of socialism.  It's weird to say that 'people aren't property' without getting back to the socialist roots of why they're not considered property any more by law.  It's important to remember that free market capitalism fully condoned and supported the enslavement of others to generate wealth for the few.

But look, slavery is a really powerful hot button topic.  I get it.  If that's getting you riled up then by the same token, environmental regulation is clearly socialist.  We're telling the free market what to do regarding negative externalities.  A good capitalist gold mining company may well choose to create holding pools of heavy metals while they're extracting gold and making great profit.  But the problem is, when that company goes out of business (maybe a hundred or a hundred and fifty years later) those holding pools still exist.  And as time goes on, they tend to leech chemicals into waterways and damage the surrounding land.  There exists no capitalist way to address the problem.  We need these socialist laws that meddle with what companies can freely do to force a policy for long term environmental care.

Current environmental laws are still very much overly permissive when it comes to negative externalities.


Socialism is certainly not the cure to all woes . . . but it's also not a boogeyman to be afraid of, and (applied judiciously) has caused tremendous good through history.

cerat0n1a

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Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
« Reply #259 on: January 20, 2021, 12:53:07 PM »
Overall, US government spending is around 38% of GDP. That means the overall size of the government as a proportion of the economy wouldn't look wildly out of line in 'socialist' Europe - Netherlands & Spain are at 42%, UK at 39%, Ireland at 25%, Switzerland at 32% to pick a few at random. It's just that spending priorities are different - a government budget of $700 billion per year on defence isn't considered to be 'socialism'.

US GDP is much higher, per capita, than most of those "socialist" countries. So 38% of US GDP is not equal to 38% of France's GDP, e.g.

This further strengthens your overall argument. I just wanted to point this out because you were short selling it.

Using %age of GDP rather than absolute amounts lets us avoid the argument "of course our health spending is higher, our doctors, nurses and janitors get paid more."

If you take the absolute spend per capita rather than as a GDP %age, the US spends 2-3 times as much on healthcare as European countries or Canada. If you adjust the amounts to take into account purchasing power, the US still spends more than double on healthcare what other rich countries do, yet still comes bottom of wealthy countries for most healthcare outcomes. Now you can argue why that is - more obesity, higher rates of extreme poverty and so on, but it's difficult to come up with any data that says private US healthcare is anywhere near as efficient as government run services elsewhere.

Samuel

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Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
« Reply #260 on: January 20, 2021, 01:02:12 PM »
Abolition was "socialist" in roughly the same way that imminent domain laws are. If the government decides the greater good requires you to be forced to sell your house in order to build a new freeway they can force you to sell your property for something approximating market value. Most European powers ended their slavery eras by compensating slave owners. Lincoln proposed the same in the US but the South was already in rebellion and not interested in negotiating. Interestingly, Lincoln DID pay slave owners in the District of Columbia compensation when he made slavery illegal there.

ericrugiero

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Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
« Reply #261 on: January 20, 2021, 01:13:46 PM »
An example was given of abolition being socialism which makes sense if you consider black people property.  As I said above, they are not property so abolition is not socialism.  In general, I'm thinking we start with our laws and then choose capitalism, socialism, or some combination.

You're cheating here.

so·cial·ism - a political and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.

The laws that ban slavery are created by the community as a whole to regulate and prevent free exchange (of slaves).  It exactly meets the definition of socialism.  It's weird to say that 'people aren't property' without getting back to the socialist roots of why they're not considered property any more by law.  It's important to remember that free market capitalism fully condoned and supported the enslavement of others to generate wealth for the few.

But look, slavery is a really powerful hot button topic.  I get it.  If that's getting you riled up then by the same token, environmental regulation is clearly socialist.  We're telling the free market what to do regarding negative externalities.  A good capitalist gold mining company may well choose to create holding pools of heavy metals while they're extracting gold and making great profit.  But the problem is, when that company goes out of business (maybe a hundred or a hundred and fifty years later) those holding pools still exist.  And as time goes on, they tend to leech chemicals into waterways and damage the surrounding land.  There exists no capitalist way to address the problem.  We need these socialist laws that meddle with what companies can freely do to force a policy for long term environmental care.

Current environmental laws are still very much overly permissive when it comes to negative externalities.


Socialism is certainly not the cure to all woes . . . but it's also not a boogeyman to be afraid of, and (applied judiciously) has caused tremendous good through history.

OK, so if your definition of socialism is that ANY restriction on free market for ANY reason is socialism then doing away with slavery is socialism.  That's not what most people view as socialism.  The definition above specifically calls out ECONOMIC theory.  If the North had told the South they couldn't have slaves because it was ECONOMICALLY unfair, I would agree it was socialism.  When it's for moral reasons, that doesn't fit my, (and I think most people's) definition of socialism.  Same thing for environmental regulations.  Establish some regulations to limit the damage companies can do the environment (for moral reasons or the greater good, not for the economy) and then let the free market go to work.  I'm in favor of that whether we call it socialism or not. 

Clearly America has several socialist policies (some of which I like and some I don't). 

The part of socialism that I'm not in favor of, and that many American's dislike, is when we limit free market economy because "it's not fair".  When we take away the reward for hard work, very few people work hard.  As I said before, we need safety nets and programs to help the under-privileged.  Those are socialism.  I think we should limit them, but we do need them.  The goal should be to help people get off those socialistic programs. 

GuitarStv

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Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
« Reply #262 on: January 20, 2021, 01:57:05 PM »
OK, so if your definition of socialism is that ANY restriction on free market for ANY reason is socialism then doing away with slavery is socialism.  That's not what most people view as socialism.  The definition above specifically calls out ECONOMIC theory.  If the North had told the South they couldn't have slaves because it was ECONOMICALLY unfair, I would agree it was socialism.  When it's for moral reasons, that doesn't fit my, (and I think most people's) definition of socialism.  Same thing for environmental regulations.  Establish some regulations to limit the damage companies can do the environment (for moral reasons or the greater good, not for the economy) and then let the free market go to work.  I'm in favor of that whether we call it socialism or not.

Clearly America has several socialist policies (some of which I like and some I don't).

The part of socialism that I'm not in favor of, and that many American's dislike, is when we limit free market economy because "it's not fair".  When we take away the reward for hard work, very few people work hard.  As I said before, we need safety nets and programs to help the under-privileged.  Those are socialism.  I think we should limit them, but we do need them.  The goal should be to help people get off those socialistic programs.

There's a lot to unpack here.


I can buy your argument that ending slavery was done for moral reasons, not economic (slaves were great for the economy, that's why capitalists loved them!).  We enforce societies morality by our rules and laws - which are inherently political.  If you closely read the dictionary definition I provided, you'll see that it specifically refers to 'political and economic' organization.  Not just economic.

I have some trouble with your arguing that capitalism should be limited based upon 'morality' though.  Morality is a meaningless concept that changes over time, culture, and place.  Obviously, slavery wasn't considered immoral for most of the bible (there are many passages that support and condone it).  200 years ago the British would have argued that allowing Indian people to govern themselves was immoral . . . and that without the firm hand of a white man governing terrible chaos would ensue.  100 years ago, most people in the US would argue that being gay was fundamentally immoral.  Under some branches of Islamic thinking it's immoral to make interest on a loan.  This is a morass of constantly shifting quicksand.

It's also incredibly hard to decide.  We limit the ability of a company to damage the environment, because we're afraid that it will damage the home of some wildlife that's endangered.  Is preventing the company from doing this fair?  Is it moral to allow the company to damage the environment?

But leaving that for a moment . . . The United States has a long history of limiting the free market when things aren't fair.  Look up market allocation, bid rigging, price fixing, and monopolies.  These have all been limited by law because they're fundamentally unfair business practice.  Do you believe that ensuring fair competition is a bad idea?

As far as getting people off of 'socialistic programs' . . . I think what you mean here is stuff like welfare and food stamps, right?  We're in agreement that the goal should be to get people to a situation where they're able to break free of these programs and better themselves.  The thing is, often times it's social programs that have the best track record of doing this.

To take a case in point . . . criminal reform.  Nordic countries consistently do better than we do here in North America with the reformation and reintegration of prisoners into society and reducing recidivism.  The reason for this is that they have far more social programs to cover mental health problems, education, job training, etc.  Here in North America we often provide the bare minimum . . . and get bare minimum results, including people who learn that it's too hard to succeed so simply give up entirely.    Counterintuitively, providing more and better social programs can often reduce reliance on social programs.

ericrugiero

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Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
« Reply #263 on: January 20, 2021, 02:09:36 PM »
But leaving that for a moment . . . The United States has a long history of limiting the free market when things aren't fair.  Look up market allocation, bid rigging, price fixing, and monopolies.  These have all been limited by law because they're fundamentally unfair business practice.  Do you believe that ensuring fair competition is a bad idea?
Maybe I worded that poorly.  No, I don't believe that fair competition is a bad idea.  On the contrary, I want nothing more than a fair competition.  I just want there to be competition so that people are pushed to improve and rewarded when they do well. 

As far as getting people off of 'socialistic programs' . . . I think what you mean here is stuff like welfare and food stamps, right?  We're in agreement that the goal should be to get people to a situation where they're able to break free of these programs and better themselves.  The thing is, often times it's social programs that have the best track record of doing this.

To take a case in point . . . criminal reform.  Nordic countries consistently do better than we do here in North America with the reformation and reintegration of prisoners into society and reducing recidivism.  The reason for this is that they have far more social programs to cover mental health problems, education, job training, etc.  Here in North America we often provide the bare minimum . . . and get bare minimum results, including people who learn that it's too hard to succeed so simply give up entirely.    Counterintuitively, providing more and better social programs can often reduce reliance on social programs.
I don't disagree with this.  I would absolutely support programs that help prisoners to be successful again.  I'm big on second chances and giving people the opportunity to succeed. 

maizefolk

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Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
« Reply #264 on: January 20, 2021, 02:17:29 PM »
Morality is a meaningless concept that changes over time, culture, and place. 

This is something you've asserted repeatedly on the forum. You're certainly welcome to continue to believe this is true (obviously, after all there is no way for one person to control another's believes). You and I have debated this belief at length, and I don't seek to convince you to change your viewpoint.

But in my observation, your belief that morality is a meaningless concept is one which is not shared with most people. Which again, is perfectly okay. I bring it up only because generally, arguments about other topics where your position is derived from this particular belief will you are likely going to be unproductive ones that just end in frustration on both sides if the person you are arguing or discussing with disagrees on this core point.

Anyway, carry on.

GuitarStv

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Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
« Reply #265 on: January 20, 2021, 03:11:24 PM »
But leaving that for a moment . . . The United States has a long history of limiting the free market when things aren't fair.  Look up market allocation, bid rigging, price fixing, and monopolies.  These have all been limited by law because they're fundamentally unfair business practice.  Do you believe that ensuring fair competition is a bad idea?
Maybe I worded that poorly.  No, I don't believe that fair competition is a bad idea.  On the contrary, I want nothing more than a fair competition.  I just want there to be competition so that people are pushed to improve and rewarded when they do well. 

As far as getting people off of 'socialistic programs' . . . I think what you mean here is stuff like welfare and food stamps, right?  We're in agreement that the goal should be to get people to a situation where they're able to break free of these programs and better themselves.  The thing is, often times it's social programs that have the best track record of doing this.

To take a case in point . . . criminal reform.  Nordic countries consistently do better than we do here in North America with the reformation and reintegration of prisoners into society and reducing recidivism.  The reason for this is that they have far more social programs to cover mental health problems, education, job training, etc.  Here in North America we often provide the bare minimum . . . and get bare minimum results, including people who learn that it's too hard to succeed so simply give up entirely.    Counterintuitively, providing more and better social programs can often reduce reliance on social programs.
I don't disagree with this.  I would absolutely support programs that help prisoners to be successful again.  I'm big on second chances and giving people the opportunity to succeed.

We seem to be mostly in agreement then.  :P

RetiredAt63

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Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
« Reply #266 on: January 20, 2021, 05:10:53 PM »
Morality is a meaningless concept that changes over time, culture, and place. 

This is something you've asserted repeatedly on the forum. You're certainly welcome to continue to believe this is true (obviously, after all there is no way for one person to control another's believes). You and I have debated this belief at length, and I don't seek to convince you to change your viewpoint.

But in my observation, your belief that morality is a meaningless concept is one which is not shared with most people. Which again, is perfectly okay. I bring it up only because generally, arguments about other topics where your position is derived from this particular belief will you are likely going to be unproductive ones that just end in frustration on both sides if the person you are arguing or discussing with disagrees on this core point.

Anyway, carry on.

Morality does change.  Different cultures have different moralities at the same time, and one culture's morality can change over time.  Morality only seems unchanging if other times and cultures are ignored.

Scenario/moral dilemma:
If I am living in a society with very scarce food resources, and women in my society breastfeed until a child is 3 because otherwise children don't get enough protein in their diet, what do I do if I have another baby when my previous baby is only 2 and needs breastfeeding for another year minimum?  I don't have enough food myself to make enough milk to feed 2 babies at once.  No other woman in my group has milk for my baby.  What is the moral thing to do?

maizefolk

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Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
« Reply #267 on: January 20, 2021, 05:21:04 PM »
Scenario/moral dilemma:
If I am living in a society with very scarce food resources, and women in my society breastfeed until a child is 3 because otherwise children don't get enough protein in their diet, what do I do if I have another baby when my previous baby is only 2 and needs breastfeeding for another year minimum?  I don't have enough food myself to make enough milk to feed 2 babies at once.  No other woman in my group has milk for my baby.  What is the moral thing to do?

I agree that this is a moral dilemma. Essentially it is a version of the trolley problem.

I disagree that the existence this or other ethical dilemmas validate the statement "morality is a meaningless concept".

RetiredAt63

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Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
« Reply #268 on: January 20, 2021, 05:53:56 PM »
Scenario/moral dilemma:
If I am living in a society with very scarce food resources, and women in my society breastfeed until a child is 3 because otherwise children don't get enough protein in their diet, what do I do if I have another baby when my previous baby is only 2 and needs breastfeeding for another year minimum?  I don't have enough food myself to make enough milk to feed 2 babies at once.  No other woman in my group has milk for my baby.  What is the moral thing to do?

I agree that this is a moral dilemma. Essentially it is a version of the trolley problem.

I disagree that the existence this or other ethical dilemmas validate the statement "morality is a meaningless concept".

Somewhere back in the discussion was the implication that morality is consistent.  It isn't, it is based on a society's circumstances.  That wasn't a restatement of the trolley problem, that was a real life situation for many societies.  And the morality those societies generally developed was that if you can't find a wet nurse for the new baby, it is exposed to die or never allowed to breathe.  Because a society that tight on resources cannot afford to lose the 3 years of investment (pregnancy plus nursing) put into the older child.  And if the mother tries to nurse both children they will lose both children, and possibly her as well.

ctuser1

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Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
« Reply #269 on: January 20, 2021, 05:55:28 PM »
Scenario/moral dilemma:
If I am living in a society with very scarce food resources, and women in my society breastfeed until a child is 3 because otherwise children don't get enough protein in their diet, what do I do if I have another baby when my previous baby is only 2 and needs breastfeeding for another year minimum?  I don't have enough food myself to make enough milk to feed 2 babies at once.  No other woman in my group has milk for my baby.  What is the moral thing to do?

I agree that this is a moral dilemma. Essentially it is a version of the trolley problem.

I disagree that the existence this or other ethical dilemmas validate the statement "morality is a meaningless concept".

Any non-trivial and absolute statement like "morality is a meaningless concept" is Godel-incomplete. This is a mathematically provable truth; so I am allowed to make such an absolute statement with only a few trivial axioms without self-contradicting.

The above also cuts the other way, and generally cuts much further against the essentialist philosophical strands (which - AFAIK - encompasses most conservative thought, possibly with some tiny exceptions w.r.t. classical liberalism) than it does against the existentialist thought.

Anyone claiming that they alone have the key to the definition of morality based on their holy book, or their pasta and meatballs or their theory of evolution,  and that everyone else must follow their definition alone and nothing else, is generally BSing. In practical terms, such BS can be seen in the manner in which most proselytizing faiths (including the kind practiced by the wokest of the woke cancel culture warriors) are conducted day to day, or "pro-life" rhetoric flung about, etc.


maizefolk

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Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
« Reply #270 on: January 20, 2021, 06:13:59 PM »
Somewhere back in the discussion was the implication that morality is consistent.  It isn't, it is based on a society's circumstances.  That wasn't a restatement of the trolley problem, that was a real life situation for many societies.  And the morality those societies generally developed was that if you can't find a wet nurse for the new baby, it is exposed to die or never allowed to breathe.  Because a society that tight on resources cannot afford to lose the 3 years of investment (pregnancy plus nursing) put into the older child.  And if the mother tries to nurse both children they will lose both children, and possibly her as well.

I seems to me that you may potentially be confounding questions of pragmatism with questions of ethics based on the bolded bit. But this is extraordinarily far outside my area of expertise. Setting that aside:

If we take it as a given that the moral solution, not just the pragmatic solution, was to prioritize the two year old over the newborn infant and that you state that many independent societies converged on the same answer to the same moral dilemma, that certainly sounds less like ethics and morality being meaningless or arbitrary and more like there being general trends of common answers to moral questions across history and geography.

Do you think that today we'd view the moral solution to be to abandon the two year old to their fate and try to save the newborn? Or would we converge on the same solution (whether through moral reasoning or pragmatic reasoning) if we were actually faced with the same choice and the same constraints?

Moral dilemmas are hard. The ones where there are recent precedents in our social circles are easier because we feel less bad about reaching the same resolution that was reached by our peers. Moral dilemmas without recent precedent, as the scenario you describe would be for someone who grew up in most of the world today, are even harder because we cannot even comfort ourselves by telling ourselves we resolved the problem in the same way as others so it was probably the right decision in the end.

RetiredAt63

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Re: America on the precipice: What are you doing?
« Reply #271 on: January 20, 2021, 09:07:00 PM »
Somewhere back in the discussion was the implication that morality is consistent.  It isn't, it is based on a society's circumstances.  That wasn't a restatement of the trolley problem, that was a real life situation for many societies.  And the morality those societies generally developed was that if you can't find a wet nurse for the new baby, it is exposed to die or never allowed to breathe.  Because a society that tight on resources cannot afford to lose the 3 years of investment (pregnancy plus nursing) put into the older child.  And if the mother tries to nurse both children they will lose both children, and possibly her as well.

I seems to me that you may potentially be confounding questions of pragmatism with questions of ethics based on the bolded bit. But this is extraordinarily far outside my area of expertise. Setting that aside:

If we take it as a given that the moral solution, not just the pragmatic solution, was to prioritize the two year old over the newborn infant and that you state that many independent societies converged on the same answer to the same moral dilemma, that certainly sounds less like ethics and morality being meaningless or arbitrary and more like there being general trends of common answers to moral questions across history and geography.

Do you think that today we'd view the moral solution to be to abandon the two year old to their fate and try to save the newborn? Or would we converge on the same solution (whether through moral reasoning or pragmatic reasoning) if we were actually faced with the same choice and the same constraints?

Moral dilemmas are hard. The ones where there are recent precedents in our social circles are easier because we feel less bad about reaching the same resolution that was reached by our peers. Moral dilemmas without recent precedent, as the scenario you describe would be for someone who grew up in most of the world today, are even harder because we cannot even comfort ourselves by telling ourselves we resolved the problem in the same way as others so it was probably the right decision in the end.

In a modern context, I think it is both moral and pragmatic for a "first world" society to have universal healthcare*.  I know this is not a universal view.

* Note I did not say free health care.  It's  not free, it is a public resource funded by our taxes, just as roads are funded by our taxes.

 

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