The Money Mustache Community
General Discussion => Welcome and General Discussion => Topic started by: MrThatsDifferent on December 30, 2018, 07:27:49 PM
-
I’m struggling with this and trying to work through it. I’m single now and fine with it but there’s a part of me that still would like to raise a child, but I’ll be 50 in a couple of years. If that doesn’t happen, then the plan will be, live my best life traveling the world. Honestly not sure what path to go down as the former is fraught with many concerns. But I’d be such a great dad!
So, Option A, the kid: I’d have to the surrogacy route (please don’t suggest other ways, they’ve all been thought through and won’t work for various reasons). Most places that were more affordable have closed to single men so that basically leaves the US, where it will cost over $100k. If I go that direction, it would mean putting my FIRE plans on hold for probably 3-5 extra years as all my plans now are focused me as a single guy, not a single parent. That’s not horrible, but to be honest, I’d love to be a SAHP for my kid as much as possible and not work, especially the first 5-7 years, so FIRE would be ideal during that time. It also just feels like so much money, when most people have them for free. Depressing.
Option B: accept that I’ll always be childless, focus on being child free and a great and generous uncle and FIRE in 4 years, spending my life traveling the globe. Sounds great and I love it, except nothing obsesses me more than watching parents with kids and imagining what my life would be like if I had that? I’m so envious. I think I would trade anything, but then, push come to shove, I wonder because I worry that the cost is too great.
Anyways, love your thoughts, but please be gentle as this is quite personal and sensitive and I’m not looking at getting into an argument with anyone. If you can’t have kids and you want them, it sucks so much you wouldn’t believe it.
-
I’m struggling with this and trying to work through it. I’m single now and fine with it but there’s a part of me that still would like to raise a child, but I’ll be 50 in a couple of years. If that doesn’t happen, then the plan will be, live my best life traveling the world. Honestly not sure what path to go down as the former is fraught with many concerns. But I’d be such a great dad!
So, Option A, the kid: I’d have to the surrogacy route (please don’t suggest other ways, they’ve all been thought through and won’t work for various reasons). Most places that were more affordable have closed to single men so that basically leaves the US, where it will cost over $100k. If I go that direction, it would mean putting my FIRE plans on hold for probably 3-5 extra years as all my plans now are focused me as a single guy, not a single parent. That’s not horrible, but to be honest, I’d love to be a SAHP for my kid as much as possible and not work, especially the first 5-7 years, so FIRE would be ideal during that time. It also just feels like so much money, when most people have them for free. Depressing.
Option B: accept that I’ll always be childless, focus on being child free and a great and generous uncle and FIRE in 4 years, spending my life traveling the globe. Sounds great and I love it, except nothing obsesses me more than watching parents with kids and imagining what my life would be like if I had that? I’m so envious. I think I would trade anything, but then, push come to shove, I wonder because I worry that the cost is too great.
Anyways, love your thoughts, but please be gentle as this is quite personal and sensitive and I’m not looking at getting into an argument with anyone. If you can’t have kids and you want them, it sucks so much you wouldn’t believe it.
As someone married with a kid, I cannot fathom raising a kid alone while needing to work. It’s just meant to be a 2+ person task. Even with help from grandparents, Mrs Up and I find ourselves exhausted and beat. If you can do it, god bless you. I’m not a lesser man for saying I couldn’t do it without all the help we have. If I were in your shoes, I’d embrace being the doting uncle, no shame in that game. I love my nieces and nephews and dote on them as well.
That’s one father’s opinion. It’s probably not worth a grain of salt.
-
If I were in your shoes I'd go the uncle route.
You could also consider fostering children. There are a lot of foster kids out there that you could help. We considered it but rejected it after realizing that in our state reunification with the biological parents was always the top priority even when it shouldn't have been.
-
I’m struggling with this and trying to work through it. I’m single now and fine with it but there’s a part of me that still would like to raise a child, but I’ll be 50 in a couple of years. If that doesn’t happen, then the plan will be, live my best life traveling the world. Honestly not sure what path to go down as the former is fraught with many concerns. But I’d be such a great dad!
So, Option A, the kid: I’d have to the surrogacy route (please don’t suggest other ways, they’ve all been thought through and won’t work for various reasons). Most places that were more affordable have closed to single men so that basically leaves the US, where it will cost over $100k. If I go that direction, it would mean putting my FIRE plans on hold for probably 3-5 extra years as all my plans now are focused me as a single guy, not a single parent. That’s not horrible, but to be honest, I’d love to be a SAHP for my kid as much as possible and not work, especially the first 5-7 years, so FIRE would be ideal during that time. It also just feels like so much money, when most people have them for free. Depressing.
Option B: accept that I’ll always be childless, focus on being child free and a great and generous uncle and FIRE in 4 years, spending my life traveling the globe. Sounds great and I love it, except nothing obsesses me more than watching parents with kids and imagining what my life would be like if I had that? I’m so envious. I think I would trade anything, but then, push come to shove, I wonder because I worry that the cost is too great.
Anyways, love your thoughts, but please be gentle as this is quite personal and sensitive and I’m not looking at getting into an argument with anyone. If you can’t have kids and you want them, it sucks so much you wouldn’t believe it.
As someone married with a kid, I cannot fathom raising a kid alone while needing to work. It’s just meant to be a 2+ person task. Even with help from grandparents, Mrs Up and I find ourselves exhausted and beat. If you can do it, god bless you. I’m not a lesser man for saying I couldn’t do it without all the help we have. If I were in your shoes, I’d embrace being the doting uncle, no shame in that game. I love my nieces and nephews and dote on them as well.
That’s one father’s opinion. It’s probably not worth a grain of salt.
100% spot on from my experience as well.
-
Single mothers raise children all the time. All. The. Time. Mine raised two.
As for fostering, as mentioned, I’ve considered all options and surrogacy is the only remaining to be discussed.
-
Single mothers raise children all the time. All. The. Time. Mine raised two.
As for fostering, as mentioned, I’ve considered all options and surrogacy is the only remaining to be discussed.
I think most single mothers are not doing it that way by choice. The points above that childrearing is a LOT of work are quite valid. I'm sure if my husband died I would figure out how to raise our son without him, but it would be much harder. No way am I planning to speed my time to FIRE by knocking him off and getting the insurance money ;)
The fact that you are almost 50 is *somewhat* concerning. I know it's quite possible you'll live to 80+, but there's also a reasonable chance you will be dead before a potential child turns 18 (yes, this is true for a 25-year-old also, but nowhere near as likely). What's your extended family network like? Do you have younger siblings or cousins that you have a strong relationship with?
-
Quite a courageous challenge I would say.
I don't think the point about 'most people having a child for free' so to speak is actually that important, as the initial fiscal cost mentioned is far less than the effort required for a lifetime. To single handedly bring up a child is not only so time consuming as a single parent, yes it is also fairly expensive over time, but in my experience, it has been the inability to run a business propertly as a self employed person because of time constraints whilst bringing up a child. It's also not so easy to focus on a business whilst thinking and sometimes worrying about one's child.
Financial reserves can help immensely of course, but if one is self employed and still need an income for the first 18 years of the child's life, I would suggest thinking long and hard about whether to take on this selfless challenge single handedly.
-
Single mothers raise children all the time. All. The. Time. Mine raised two.
As for fostering, as mentioned, I’ve considered all options and surrogacy is the only remaining to be discussed.
I think most single mothers are not doing it that way by choice. The points above that childrearing is a LOT of work are quite valid. I'm sure if my husband died I would figure out how to raise our son without him, but it would be much harder. No way am I planning to speed my time to FIRE by knocking him off and getting the insurance money ;)
The fact that you are almost 50 is *somewhat* concerning. I know it's quite possible you'll live to 80+, but there's also a reasonable chance you will be dead before a potential child turns 18 (yes, this is true for a 25-year-old also, but nowhere near as likely). What's your extended family network like? Do you have younger siblings or cousins that you have a strong relationship with?
Whether they do by choice or not isn’t really the point is it? The fact is, single mothers and fathers raise children on their own all the time for a variety of reasons. They make it work.
I currently have a good a job with good pay, worst case scenario I could get a nanny or au pair to assist.
As for the age, yes, that’s definitely a concern about being an older dad. I do have a great family network of people I would trust that could take care of my child if anything happened to me.
-
My heart goes out to you, MrThatsDifferent. I remembered this post from earlier in the year:
We’re mid40s, no kids and I hate it. Never thought I wouldn’t be a dad. It tears at me and breaks my heart, daily. I’m jealous of every father and child. Every one. I irrationally hate absent or neglectful or cruel fathers. Yes, there is the singular consolation that are lives are easier and wealthier because of no kids. But I’d happy change everything to be a dad. So I regret, not falling in love younger and not trying for a family before it became too late.
You have a very strong and persistent desire to parent, and have been ready to do so for a while, so I would lean toward taking that path. It sounds like $100k is not a life-destroying amount of money for you. If any kind of part-time work arrangement is possible you may find that's the sweet spot for parent-child togetherness plus social stimulation for kid and professional gratification for you. Unless you live in a dramatically family-supportive environment, you may find being a SAHP to be very isolating.
The work of raising a child and the concern of being an older parent: very valid concerns. Being near involved family would help. Finding other (single or partnered) parent friends to collaborate with would help. I do think a child who is very wanted and has an involved parent with financial and familial resources is pretty fortunate. Ensuring there's a back-up guardian who loves, is known to, and is committed to the child would be very important in case anything befell you.
I don't know your capacity to caregive but as an average person with a partner/co-parent, I can say that a child is a lot of work and sacrifice. I would plan to have other caregivers in the child's life (family, friends, paid childcare) because even if you are ER, doing it all 24/7 is a huge load to carry.
-
Quite a courageous challenge I would say.
I don't think the point about 'most people having a child for free' so to speak is actually that important, as the initial fiscal cost mentioned is far less than the effort required for a lifetime. To single handedly bring up a child is not only so time consuming as a single parent, yes it is also fairly expensive over time, but in my experience, it has been the inability to run a business propertly as a self employed person because of time constraints whilst bringing up a child. It's also not so easy to focus on a business whilst thinking and sometimes worrying about one's child.
Financial reserves can help immensely of course, but if one is self employed and still need an income for the first 18 years of the child's life, I would suggest thinking long and hard about whether to take on this selfless challenge single handedly.
Oddly, being a single parent is the least difficult part for me. I’m incredible with kids, I get them. And as I said, having grown up in a single parent household I know I can pull off everything my mother did, plus be more nurturing and better off financially. My concerns are generally the age and committing the extreme financial resources to make it happen. But if I never get to be a dad, is all the money in the world worth it?
-
I'm raising 2 kids almost alone, and their dad has only seen them for a few days a year since I got pregnant with the second. I'm not quite a solo parent, but I honestly think it would be easier if I were. I think you can do it and work (I do) but it's going to be damn difficult at least until the child is in kindergarten. I don't think it would be fair to you or the child if you are regularly working long hours. Would it be possible to work fewer hours but for more years?
-
My heart goes out to you, MrThatsDifferent. I remembered this post from earlier in the year:
We’re mid40s, no kids and I hate it. Never thought I wouldn’t be a dad. It tears at me and breaks my heart, daily. I’m jealous of every father and child. Every one. I irrationally hate absent or neglectful or cruel fathers. Yes, there is the singular consolation that are lives are easier and wealthier because of no kids. But I’d happy change everything to be a dad. So I regret, not falling in love younger and not trying for a family before it became too late.
You have a very strong and persistent desire to parent, and have been ready to do so for a while, so I would lean toward taking that path. It sounds like $100k is not a life-destroying amount of money for you. If any kind of part-time work arrangement is possible you may find that's the sweet spot for parent-child togetherness plus social stimulation for kid and professional gratification for you. Unless you live in a dramatically family-supportive environment, you may find being a SAHP to be very isolating.
The work of raising a child and the concern of being an older parent: very valid concerns. Being near involved family would help. Finding other (single or partnered) parent friends to collaborate with would help. I do think a child who is very wanted and has an involved parent with financial and familial resources is pretty fortunate. Ensuring there's a back-up guardian who loves, is known to, and is committed to the child would be very important in case anything befell you.
I don't know your capacity to caregive but as an average person with a partner/co-parent, I can say that a child is a lot of work and sacrifice. I would plan to have other caregivers in the child's life (family, friends, paid childcare) because even if you are ER, doing it all 24/7 is a huge load to carry.
Thank you for your kind words and support. Yes, this has been the persistent theme of my life ever since my now ex partner and I started to have a family. That stress contributed to the marriage ending and those sentiments I’ve shared before haven’t changed at all. I find myself at the crucible of having to make a decision, go it alone or give up forever. My heart isn’t ready to give up but my head thinks it might be too late and I’m just being stubborn and foolish. But what do I do about my heart? How do I manage the next 30-40 years with this ache and want? Will traveling and having great experiences fill it? Or will I always mourn? I have no idea and no clue what to do? MMM showed me how I can be financially free but it’s also shown me that I can have the means to make this a reality, so do I dare and is that fair to any kid I have?
-
I'm raising 2 kids almost alone, and their dad has only seen them for a few days a year since I got pregnant with the second. I'm not quite a solo parent, but I honestly think it would be easier if I were. I think you can do it and work (I do) but it's going to be damn difficult at least until the child is in kindergarten. I don't think it would be fair to you or the child if you are regularly working long hours. Would it be possible to work fewer hours but for more years?
I would definitely work less and have support. Kudos for you for doing the tough work by yourself. It’s a bit odd to me that men give so little thought to women raising children by themselves, but mention a guy doing it and all of sudden it’s virtually impossible to fathom.
-
I have to say, I'm truly torn on this one. As a dad of three, I can't imagine my life without my kids. That said, I just turned 44 today and I can't imagine becoming a parent at this age for the first time (unless it were through adoption of an older child). I just can't fathom the thought of being in my 60's when my kid graduates from high school! I can see it from both sides - I feel like a part of me would resent the child for putting my plans to travel the world on hold, but I know if I didn't have the child I would be travelling the world just looking at parents in places I visit wondering what I missed out on. I can't begin to give you advice on this, but I do wish you all the best in making your decision! Whatever you decide, I hope it is the right decision for you.
-
I have to say, I'm truly torn on this one. As a dad of three, I can't imagine my life without my kids. That said, I just turned 44 today and I can't imagine becoming a parent at this age for the first time (unless it were through adoption of an older child). I just can't fathom the thought of being in my 60's when my kid graduates from high school! I can see it from both sides - I feel like a part of me would resent the child for putting my plans to travel the world on hold, but I know if I didn't have the child I would be travelling the world just looking at parents in places I visit wondering what I missed out on. I can't begin to give you advice on this, but I do wish you all the best in making your decision! Whatever you decide, I hope it is the right decision for you.
Thanks for your support. I guess the thing is, I have travelled quite a bit, more than most because I haven’t been raising kids. But I also know that I would travel with a kid, because I’m very comfortable traveling, not intimidated by it. That makes a difference. I do think of it as living my life in reverse, all my friends sending their kids off and me just starting. Daunting definitely. And I don’t want 3, one is plenty ;-)
-
As a parent of one ( accidentally got pregnant in late teens ) I didn't really want more .. I'm in my mid forties now and to be honest if I waited until more normal 30s I would probably remain childless .
I'm the opposite of you , I desperately want to travel (more), to move , etc.
So even with this position , I'm saying , GO FOR IT.
I know the ache from people close to me, and their sacrifice and their absolute happiness after having a child .
If you have money , like you said , hire a nanny to help you . If you have family that can support you , it's great , you can still travel with a child .
Have you explored surrogacy in cheaper countries ??
-
I have to say, I'm truly torn on this one. As a dad of three, I can't imagine my life without my kids. That said, I just turned 44 today and I can't imagine becoming a parent at this age for the first time (unless it were through adoption of an older child). I just can't fathom the thought of being in my 60's when my kid graduates from high school! I can see it from both sides - I feel like a part of me would resent the child for putting my plans to travel the world on hold, but I know if I didn't have the child I would be travelling the world just looking at parents in places I visit wondering what I missed out on. I can't begin to give you advice on this, but I do wish you all the best in making your decision! Whatever you decide, I hope it is the right decision for you.
Thanks for your support. I guess the thing is, I have travelled quite a bit, more than most because I haven’t been raising kids. But I also know that I would travel with a kid, because I’m very comfortable traveling, not intimidated by it. That makes a difference. I do think of it as living my life in reverse, all my friends sending their kids off and me just starting. Daunting definitely. And I don’t want 3, one is plenty ;-)
I see several analogues in the lives around me... None quite the same but all successful.
* A father in law whose last kid left for college in his late 60s. He's very active and, I swear, has been kept younger by kids. That said, my MIL is a great parent so he's not doing it alone but he's hardly disengaged.
* A cousin who unexpectedly had her first child in her mid/late 40s. She's very career oriented and her foreign born husband does a lot of the caretaking and must have been near 50 when their daughter was born. He's a natural fit for it. It's working for them.
* I'm about 10y younger than your situation but enjoying travel as a family with my now 5y son sleeping next to me and wife while 4000 miles from home. Merged my company into another in q4 largely so that I can spend more time with him. To your point travel doesn't have to stop... Though it does change. I'm not a natural at parenting but I love it.
Several family members are moms going it alone at younger ages, but no dad's going it alone.
I don't think that's the differentiating or defining point. All 3 of the examples above suggest to me it's possible to be a successful older father as primary caregiver and still travel.
I'm certain sole parent is possible for the right person in this situation. Under the condition that youve given it as much thought and time as your posts here suggest, that you're even more committed to parenting than you were to the sacrifices necessary (for most) to contemplate fire at 52, that you're willing to compromise just about any other want you may have to do this, I say go for it.
And if you do, I'd look forward to seeing some updates here now and again though not surprised if this got tossed into the "if I had more time" pile. :)
-
As a parent of one ( accidentally got pregnant in late teens ) I didn't really want more .. I'm in my mid forties now and to be honest if I waited until more normal 30s I would probably remain childless .
I'm the opposite of you , I desperately want to travel (more), to move , etc.
So even with this position , I'm saying , GO FOR IT.
I know the ache from people close to me, and their sacrifice and their absolute happiness after having a child .
If you have money , like you said , hire a nanny to help you . If you have family that can support you , it's great , you can still travel with a child .
Have you explored surrogacy in cheaper countries ??
Thank you for sharing. Virtually all of the options for a single man to have a child through surrogacy in a cheaper country have now been closed now. I missed that window while we were trying to have a baby together. A mate of mine had twins from a surrogate in India right before the ban went into place. The US is really the only viable option, but the costs are insane. I’ve read that Panama might be but they’re early in this and there could be legal issues with who is the actual parent.
-
Thank you coffeeanddonuts for sharing those stories. I’m not quite sure where this path will take me, but I was working on a list of life goals and there were two over-arching themes, be a parent and see the world. Since I’ve written this and have been reading the responses and writing back I’ve been thinking about this quite a bit. One thing, I’m not scared about having a child, it’s really, how do I have one? But I do have some advantages:
1. As mentioned, I’m naturally great with kids and helped raise my siblings.
2. I’m in near perfect health
3. I have a great job that pays well and I can save the money in 1.5 years if I focus
4. I would get almost a year of paid family leave, so I would definitely take that time off to be with the kid for at least the first year
5. I could easily work 4 days a week and make my schedule whatever I want
6. Without a kid, I could FIRE in 4 years, with one, I’d probably stretch to 6-7. That’s not that bad.
7. Once I FIRE, the kid and I would most likely live in South America, SE Asia or Portugal—LCOL countries.
The funny thing to think about is if I had a kid at 50, the kid goes off to college when I’m 68, which is around the time lots of people my age would be retiring, so in theory, I’d be “retiring” with everyone else.
-
It seems to me that having a child is VERY important to you. GO FOR IT. For me the hardest part of having children was pregnancy, delivery and the first 3 years, then it becomes easier. Being a parent it is hard work but it is regarding, you won’t feel bored or feel alone ever (at least while they are small), they won’t leave you alone ;) . Also, you don’t need to give up traveling, in fact the kid would give you company and will make the trip more interesting and rewarding, especially once they are about 6 years old when they want you to explain everything to them and you end up learning throughout the process.
I wish the best luck with your decision.
-
It seems to me that having a child is VERY important to you. GO FOR IT. For me the hardest part of having children was pregnancy, delivery and the first 3 years, then it becomes easier. Being a parent it is hard work but it is regarding, you won’t feel bored or feel alone ever (at least while they are small), they won’t leave you alone ;) . Also, you don’t need to give up traveling, in fact the kid would give you company and will make the trip more interesting and rewarding, especially once they are about 6 years old when they want you to explain everything to them and you end up learning throughout the process.
I wish the best luck with your decision.
I love this! I’m on holidays at the moment watching parents with kids from 1 and up, and they are all having a good time. I love the idea of showing the kid the world.
-
Seriously, go for it.
Also, +1 to travelling with kiddos. We've taken our kids on many road trips (10 and 6) and while it's not always a blast in the moment, the memories we make are always worth it. My kiddos have taken yearly 3000+ mile road trips since the youngest was 1. We have seen and done a lot and it's the one area where we are quite spendy.
-
As someone who had kids relatively late I think the upside of doing this late in life is maturity. You probably have your shit together way more than someone in their mid 20's, emotionally, financially, etc. and will be able to provide great stability, love and life advice.
That said I can't imagine wanting to be a single parent in your 50's. It's an insane amount of work and is physically, mentally and emotionally draining. It puts MASSIVE constraints on your free time, lifestyle flexibility and finances. I'd also be a bit worried about later life health and how that might affect a kid or teen.
I'd weigh very carefully whether this is a grass is always greener type of thing or truly something you want to commit to. Cause it's a hell of a commitment, especially in the way you're talking about doing it. Looking at it from my perspective as a 44 year old dad of two young ones, no way in hell I'd do it at 50. But of course you're not me. ;)
-
As someone who had kids relatively late I think the upside of doing this late in life is maturity. You probably have your shit together way more than someone in their mid 20's, emotionally, financially, etc. and will be able to provide great stability, love and life advice.
That said I can't imagine wanting to be a single parent in your 50's. It's an insane amount of work and is physically, mentally and emotionally draining. It puts MASSIVE constraints on your free time, lifestyle flexibility and finances. I'd also be a bit worried about later life health and how that might affect a kid or teen.
I'd weigh very carefully whether this is a grass is always greener type of thing or truly something you want to commit to. Cause it's a hell of a commitment, especially in the way you're talking about doing it. Looking at it from my perspective as a 44 year old dad of two young ones, no way in hell I'd do it at 50. But of course you're not me. ;)
Thanks buddy for the caution. The problem is I’ll never know if I can handle it or not until I do it. And come on, there are a shit ton of parents who are young and active and really bad at parenting. People adapt, I’ll just have to be conscious and smart about everything, but that’s what parents should be doing anyways.
-
Go for it, you can make peace with yourself knowing you tried everything you could to become a parent. However, also keep in mind that you don't have to be the biological father to be a parent.
If adoption or surrogacy is to difficult. I know plenty of people that move to developing countries that marry and have kids at ages older than you, think military retirees. Even though the age disparity between the couples can be 20+ years they have raised kids and stayed together for the remainder of their lives. If you say you are 5 ish years from fire that means that you can probably be FIRE in a developing country even with a new family.
Just giving you additional ideas, it just depends on how much you want to be a parent.
-
That said I can't imagine wanting to be a single parent in your 50's. It's an insane amount of work and is physically, mentally and emotionally draining. It puts MASSIVE constraints on your free time, lifestyle flexibility and finances. I'd also be a bit worried about later life health and how that might affect a kid or teen.
I won't argue about how hard it is, but your family network, FU money, and your flexible work schedule will mitigate some of that stress.
We had none of those options and so we definitely felt the MASSIVE constraints on our time, flexibility and finances.
But after being raised in a poor family with six kids, I'm excited for a kid with a mature parent who can show them the world and give them a different upbringing than what is typical these days. Even if your child loses you in their late 20s/early 30s, they will still have had an incredible life and relationship with you.
-
DW and I are around the same age as you and we chose the no kids route. We both couldn't be happier. We have a handful of nieces and nephews in our life so we get our kid fix that way. It sounds like you are really jonesing to have a kid. We never had such strong desires to have kids. If I was you, I'd go for it.
-
I think you should go for it and become a father. I’m a single mother by choice through adoption. I utilize professional childcare, and have a lot of flexibility in my schedule due to being semi-FIREd. I don’t live near family and don’t have a huge support network but I do have a small quality support network. Most noteworthy is my boyfriend. He doesn’t live with me but does come over daily. I bring him up for two reasons. First, he is much older than I am (and older than you will be) but is extraordinarily fit and healthy. He has no issue keeping up with a toddler and loves her dearly. If anything were to happen to me, he would take over as her full time parent. The second reason I bring him up is, while we don’t live together and he doesn’t carry any of the day to day responsibility for her care, he gives me immense emotional support and the feeling of sharing her and this journey with someone who is “all in.” That’s the only thing I’d suggest you think about and consider cultivating even if not in a romantic partner.
The truth is that the logistics of taking care of kids isn’t as hard as people make it out to be, as long as you have money. It’s really not that hard to house, feed, cloth and transport a child. The part that is hard (and it’s really hard) is the emotional expenditure of being a parent. They take up all of your mental and emotional energy - they will never not be on your mind or tugging at your heart. Every decision you make will trace back to your child. And while this brings immense joy, it does take everything you have, all the time, for the foreseeable future. Having someone to share that with, at least for me, has made all of the difference.
So don’t be afraid of being a single, older parent. Do build your tribe of people who will adore your child and share in the emotional teamwork. Utilize professional childcare as needed with no guilt. Embrace the new dynamic of never having leftover mental and emotional resources that aren’t taken up by your child. And don’t worry about spending your money on family. I adopted my daughter for free through foster care, but if I had to do it again I’d spend $100k to become her mom without even blinking.
-
I’m struggling with this and trying to work through it. I’m single now and fine with it but there’s a part of me that still would like to raise a child, but I’ll be 50 in a couple of years. If that doesn’t happen, then the plan will be, live my best life traveling the world. Honestly not sure what path to go down as the former is fraught with many concerns. But I’d be such a great dad!
So, Option A, the kid: I’d have to the surrogacy route (please don’t suggest other ways, they’ve all been thought through and won’t work for various reasons). Most places that were more affordable have closed to single men so that basically leaves the US, where it will cost over $100k. If I go that direction, it would mean putting my FIRE plans on hold for probably 3-5 extra years as all my plans now are focused me as a single guy, not a single parent. That’s not horrible, but to be honest, I’d love to be a SAHP for my kid as much as possible and not work, especially the first 5-7 years, so FIRE would be ideal during that time. It also just feels like so much money, when most people have them for free. Depressing.
Option B: accept that I’ll always be childless, focus on being child free and a great and generous uncle and FIRE in 4 years, spending my life traveling the globe. Sounds great and I love it, except nothing obsesses me more than watching parents with kids and imagining what my life would be like if I had that? I’m so envious. I think I would trade anything, but then, push come to shove, I wonder because I worry that the cost is too great.
Anyways, love your thoughts, but please be gentle as this is quite personal and sensitive and I’m not looking at getting into an argument with anyone. If you can’t have kids and you want them, it sucks so much you wouldn’t believe it.
As someone married with a kid, I cannot fathom raising a kid alone while needing to work. It’s just meant to be a 2+ person task. Even with help from grandparents, Mrs Up and I find ourselves exhausted and beat. If you can do it, god bless you. I’m not a lesser man for saying I couldn’t do it without all the help we have. If I were in your shoes, I’d embrace being the doting uncle, no shame in that game. I love my nieces and nephews and dote on them as well.
That’s one father’s opinion. It’s probably not worth a grain of salt.
I'm gonna +1 this, with some caveats.
I have a friend who is a single mom, went to the sperm bank route. When I was younger and before kids, I thought nothing of it. But my older kid was a toddler when she had her first and all I could think was DON'T DO IT. I mean, parenting is meant to be a 2 person thing. A lot of people have a "village", but it ain't the same. You can't really imagine how hard it is until you are there. And then you find out how much of a village you really have. If you can afford to pay for a village (say, for week long overnight childcare if you have to travel), fine. (Did I mention my friend has no family in town?) We don't live near each other but her facebook feed is FULL of all these kinds of challenges. There are so many challenges. She has to take ALL the sick days and school holidays and snow days.
That said, there are millions of single parents. I have many family members and friends who were widowed and raised their kids alone. Or divorced and raised their kids alone. Some had friends and family to help. Many did not.
I also have a local friend who was a surrogate to a gay couple and a separate gay couple on the street who used a surrogate. (Both twins!)
Your life will be easier without the kids, and you can always be around kids by volunteering and such. But man, they are such a joy. We had our second in our 40s. I have friends who adopted from foster care - they were in their 50s and adopted toddlers, and they were just fine (don't worry about age!) I cannot complain to them about being almost 60 when my 2nd finishes high school - they are already 60 with kids in elementary.
-
Really unfair to the child, unless you are the pinnacle of health and fitness. You will be nearing or at 70 by the time they are 18. Lot of people can go down hill fast and unexpectedly in their 60s and there is no backup if something happens to you. You also won't be fit and have the endurance a child deserves in their 7-15 stage when you should be getting them out and active.
There is also a real risk you will leave that child alone in the world in their early 20s as you reach mid 70s. One parent being much older is fine, but intentionally having only one older parent is selfish.
-
I vote absolutely. It sounds like you were meant to be a father. Your child will be extremely blessed to have a dad who cares about him or her so much. The same cannot be said for thousands of children born each year.
My wife and I have a one year old, and while I personally can't fathom doing it alone, it's not impossible. Especially for someone as dedicated as you. You can certainly do it.
As for the comments about it being unfair to the child: I'd say most people would prefer a dad who was present and focused 100% for 20 years, as opposed to a dad who was rarely present and distracted for 60 years. When your son or daughter is 30 years old and they realize the magnitude of your decision, your courage, and your desire to be a great father, it will fill them with pride and the desire to be as great of a parent themselves as you were to them.
I wish you all the best in your decision. Don't let the opinions of some forum members (myself included) sway you from doing what you feel is right.
Edited to add: there's also a very high likelihood that you'll meet a woman who will embrace your son or daughter, admire your decision and your courage, and serve as a wonderful mother. That woman may have children of her own, who will also become a part of your family. So to assume that your son or daughter would be left all alone in the world if you died isn't entirely fair or accurate.
-
As someone who has struggled with losses and difficulty getting pregnant I can completely relate to the powerful pull of the beast to have a kid. I don’t think it is a license to go to the ends of the earth to have a kid at all costs, but for us it meant doing everything reasonable to try to have kids. My goal was to look back on my life 20 years from now and not feel regret over “if only I had tried x...”. All the money in the world can’t buy you time to re-do how you want your life to go.
We are friends with a single mother by choice from our new parent support group. She was very conscientious about building her community of support around her as her family is on the other side of the country. She did have a cousin live with her as a nanny for the first year or two of her kid’s life which is obviously very helpful. I saw her be deliberate about meeting families in groups and neighbors and coworkers to be part of a village. There were times I felt like she had her shit together much better than me with my husband 2-on-1 with that tiny little tyrant. :)
My vote would be that if you are financially stable and really want this then you should give it a try. But I don’t get a vote, nor do any vote, nor does anyone else here.
-
My spouse is an older father (older than you will be). He is "young at heart" and healthy* (see below). He does get tired a lot more easily than I do being younger. Once you hit 50, even healthy fit guys slow down a bit. We hummed and hawed at the "have a child when you're so old" issue. He had kids from a previous relationship and loves them dearly, but ours is my only. One thing that we did acknowledge was that with 2 of us, if something happened to him (or to me) at least there would be another to fall back on. And if something should happen to both of us, we have a family member who'd take our child. The other thing is we basically have plenty of money. And as mentioned before, money can buy a lot of things.
That said, here's some things to think about:
- while my spouse was fit, took no meds, exercised regularly and never smoked, he was diagnosed with cancer 2 years ago and had to have surgery and radiation which was debilitating for a 6 month period. I had to do pretty much everything during that period. He is healthy and cancer free now, but we are lucky. Cancer or illness can strike at any time. Have a back up plan. If you were to have a sudden fatal illness, do you have people in place who can take over?
- Retirement/FIRE: I'd like to FIRE and travel in a few years. But my kid is in school. She has friends, hobbies, sports teams, etc. Dragging her off to live in South America would be awesome for me, but might not be so great for her. We do travel a lot and take her to different countries, but I'm not sure how she would do with a nomadic like lifestyle. I know there are several blogs that discuss family/homeschooling abroad when FIRE'd so ... think about it. I think the best might be to be in a stable place in your home country during the year and travel during the summer. At least that would work best for us.
- I think no matter what you decide, you will be looking over the fence wondering "what if". As I said, I'd love to travel, but kids like routine and roots, stability, etc. I love my kiddo more than anything, but sometimes I daydream about being in a tent in Tibet and not worrying about homework or practice or whatever the kid issue of the day is. It definitely wears on you and tires you out. You'll never come first again. And that's ok, but be prepared. When you're sick, you'll still have to take care of the kid first. Nobody to help you. My Mom was a single parent, and quite frankly she hated it and resented me. Being a single parent is one of my worst fears, but as you can see I had a child anyways, knowing inherently it was a possibility. She's definitely worth the risk. Good luck whatever you decide.
-
Really unfair to the child, unless you are the pinnacle of health and fitness. You will be nearing or at 70 by the time they are 18. Lot of people can go down hill fast and unexpectedly in their 60s and there is no backup if something happens to you. You also won't be fit and have the endurance a child deserves in their 7-15 stage when you should be getting them out and active.
There is also a real risk you will leave that child alone in the world in their early 20s as you reach mid 70s. One parent being much older is fine, but intentionally having only one older parent is selfish.
Agree. I understand you're healthy now and have no reason to think you won't remain that way, but as a 20-something supporting an older parent through health issues while my friends travel the world with their parents and have 20 years left with them...I think it's just too late. I think my dad was too old when my parents had me (he was only 37 but he had known health issues even then) and it was a selfish decision. I'm sure you would be an amazing dad in the years you have with your kid, but I think you're really going to shortchange them by having a kid at your age.
-
My neighbor did this! (his situation sounds incredibly similar to yours. there is a live-in nanny at this point)
It sounds like you are crystal clear that this is important to you and you'd have true regret if you don't do it and therefore I lean towards "do it!"
But surrogacy takes a long time. In your shoes I would investigate foster adoption. I have friends who have done that, both single and married folks, and the time from decision-to-kid was whirlwind short. Of course the time from kid-to-legally-finalized took longer. It was still far less than finding the egg donor and gestational surrogate then the cycles trying to conceive and then the pregnancy itself (plus maybe losses and try agains).
good luck in whatever you do!
-
Only you can make the decision, but I wouldn't let age be a determining factor if you're in good health and can honestly expect to remain that way. Age can be an advantage.
I got married at 42 and my child arrived just about the time I turned 47. Yes, I am a 55-year-old with an eight-year-old daughter. Yes, I will be 65 when I drive her off to attend college. So what. Age aside, I'm more fit than many men far younger than I am. More importantly, having a child later in life meant I was far more mature and financially stable than I would have been if I had a child in my 20s or 30s. I traveled the world and had the adventures I wanted to have earlier in my life, so having a child meant a new adventure, not giving up other things I wanted to do. I FIREd and left my job behind to be a full-time dad when I was 52 and my daughter was 5. Is having children late in life "selfish?" Maybe it is, but I think my daughter is happier with her "old" dad who rides bikes with her home from school and shows up at every school event than she would be with a twenty-years younger and less mature version who goes to work every day.
Being a single working dad is a lot of hard work. I did it for six months when my daughter was five. She was not an infant, I had no financial concerns, and I had both household help and an understanding employer. And it was still really tough. The experience gave me new respect for single parents who have to raise kids without the advantages I had.
Are you in the US? Your ability to take a year of family leave makes it sound like you live in Europe or perhaps the Antipodes. If you can get a year of paid leave and you live in a country with reasonable day care options, raising a child and keeping on track for FIRE might be a lot easier than it would be in the US. If you are close to FIRE, you might think about FIREing first and dedicating yourself to being a full-time dad.
FWIW, I would urge you to think very hard about your thought about moving to a LCOL country with a young child. That lifestyle might be your dream, but it might not be your child's. There are a lot of great reasons to live abroad and travel (my family is doing that), but there's also a lot to be said for letting children have strong connections to family and community. Living all their formative years and being educated in a foreign country can make kids aliens in their "home" country. It can also cause problems with getting jobs. And if you come from a country with strong medical/daycare/social/educational systems, you will want to think about what's going to replace them elsewhere.
As far as I'm concerned, there's no reason not to travel with children. My daughter has been flying on international flights since she was six weeks old. Traveling with her is a real pleasure, and I am happy to travel with her alone when my wife can't be with us. She handles 24-hour multi-leg flight itineraries like a pro.
Whatever you do, I wish you good luck and happiness.
-
Agree. I understand you're healthy now and have no reason to think you won't remain that way, but as a 20-something supporting an older parent through health issues while my friends travel the world with their parents and have 20 years left with them...I think it's just too late. I think my dad was too old when my parents had me (he was only 37 but he had known health issues even then) and it was a selfish decision. I'm sure you would be an amazing dad in the years you have with your kid, but I think you're really going to shortchange them by having a kid at your age.
This is an important side I forgot. Your child would just be spreading there wings and looking for job opportunities as you reading early 70s and decent chance start needing some help (physical and/or mental). These days the young adult will likely have to move a lot for career advancement, but if they need to assist caring for you that will complicate things. My parents are mid 70s and they are just realizing they will need help soon which means they are moving near me and I need to stay put.
You are putting an immense burden on your child for selfish reasons. They should be focused on job or finding and starting a family in their 20s, not caring for a parent 50 years their senior.
-
Weighing in again here... I mean, you need a license to fish but anyone with the right anatomy can "father" a child. Here we have someone who is fully aware of the amount of sacrifice a child takes and wants to anyways, I say go for it as well. The only concern I have is with what if something were to happen to you? Do you have a plan or support that could take care of the child if you were to die suddenly or become incapacitated? No one ever thinks it will happen to them, but it happens every day (sometimes to great people). You may have mentioned this up thread - if so, I apologize. Definitely something I would want to consider since you don't want your child that you love so much to become a ward of the state. I'm assuming you've thought of this, so I again say go for it! Best of luck!
-
It sounds like this is something extremely important to you, and if you are not batting an eye spending 100K to have a child, and putting off Fire, you should do it.
A couple caveats. I agree with honey bbq and another poster While it might be ideal for you to think about traveling alot with child, or relocating to a lcol country, kids like routine and predictabilty and be able to develop friendships at school, etc. I like her advice: "be in a stable place in your home country during the year and travel during the summer. At least that would work best for us."
Children, while compared to adults are flexible and resilient, they vary. My oldest loves traveling and is at home everywhere (I predict she will do alot of traveling when she is older). My youngest otoh thrives on routine and has a hard time sleeping without her routine and does not sleep well the first night anywhere traveling. You don't know what kind of kid you will have.
I just don't want you to have rose colored glasses and assume the best case scenario with child raising, and that having a child is not going to affect your early retirement/travel/ living location plans. You need to be OK that any of those things are subject to change, based on what is best for the child, family situation.
-
Agree. I understand you're healthy now and have no reason to think you won't remain that way, but as a 20-something supporting an older parent through health issues while my friends travel the world with their parents and have 20 years left with them...I think it's just too late. I think my dad was too old when my parents had me (he was only 37 but he had known health issues even then) and it was a selfish decision. I'm sure you would be an amazing dad in the years you have with your kid, but I think you're really going to shortchange them by having a kid at your age.
This is an important side I forgot. Your child would just be spreading there wings and looking for job opportunities as you reading early 70s and decent chance start needing some help (physical and/or mental). These days the young adult will likely have to move a lot for career advancement, but if they need to assist caring for you that will complicate things. My parents are mid 70s and they are just realizing they will need help soon which means they are moving near me and I need to stay put.
You are putting an immense burden on your child for selfish reasons. They should be focused on job or finding and starting a family in their 20s, not caring for a parent 50 years their senior.
We'll, if he's FIREing when he says he will his assets should cover health care, and any other type of care he'll need. The kid won't be on the hook for any type of parental support. So the only selfish part may be "congrats on graduating from college,now I'm going to die and leave you alone"
-
I read the OP... So, adoption, fostering and finding a partner who already has a kid are all out as options?
You have to have a kid that comes from your own balls to make you feel complete? Just curious.
-
I was so mad when my dad got his girlfriend pregnant. I was mad because he's not the most together person. Now he's 62 and has an 8 year old and loves her to pieces. I love her to pieces too. If you pass away while she is a minor she will get your social security check until she turns 18.
On the traveling front, my mother took me to live in Puerto Rico when I was 10. We are not Hispanic. We lived there for 6 years and came back to the mainland USA for my junior year of high school. It was hard to hustle to make sure I had all the right classes and community hours. On top of applying to colleges and taking AP exams. And I did this all by myself because my parents were emotionally absent. It worked out fine. I got into the college I wanted.
-
I read the OP... So, adoption, fostering and finding a partner who already has a kid are all out as options?
You have to have a kid that comes from your own balls to make you feel complete? Just curious.
You’re not being curious, you’re being mean and as mentioned, I won’t spend time addressing things I’ve considered but won’t work for various reasons, especially not to satisfy your “curiosity”.
-
I read the OP... So, adoption, fostering and finding a partner who already has a kid are all out as options?
You have to have a kid that comes from your own balls to make you feel complete? Just curious.
I'll answer for him. I don't know if this is his reasoning, but when I wanted to have a kid, I wanted a kid who was my and my partner's kid, genetically our offspring. I wanted to see me and my parents and grandparents in my kid. It's not rational, it just is. I had no problems in the fertility etc department and I got what I wanted. I don't know what my plan b would have been if I couldn't conceive, since I didn't have to worry about it, but I wouldn't have automatically gone straight to adopting or foster a child. They are equally valid but different life choices in my mind.
-
We'll, if he's FIREing when he says he will his assets should cover health care, and any other type of care he'll need. The kid won't be on the hook for any type of parental support. So the only selfish part may be "congrats on graduating from college,now I'm going to die and leave you alone"
Normal FIRE covers medical expenses, doctor visits, procedures etc, but most need very considerable assets to provide 100% support (ie, live in assistance etc). He mentions a $100k expense delaying FIRE by 3-5 years, that doesn't sound like he has massive reserves or income.
There are loads of little things seniors need help with. It could be as simple as driving them to the doctor or for groceries. Sometimes they can't clean anymore. It can be helping them sort through and read their medicine. It can be helping them keep their financials and accounts in order as technology changes. Very few people go from 100% healthy to natural, peaceful death of old age without help from lots around them. Hiring people to do all of that will require a Suze Orman sized fat FIRE.
-
Agree. I understand you're healthy now and have no reason to think you won't remain that way, but as a 20-something supporting an older parent through health issues while my friends travel the world with their parents and have 20 years left with them...I think it's just too late. I think my dad was too old when my parents had me (he was only 37 but he had known health issues even then) and it was a selfish decision. I'm sure you would be an amazing dad in the years you have with your kid, but I think you're really going to shortchange them by having a kid at your age.
This is an important side I forgot. Your child would just be spreading there wings and looking for job opportunities as you reading early 70s and decent chance start needing some help (physical and/or mental). These days the young adult will likely have to move a lot for career advancement, but if they need to assist caring for you that will complicate things. My parents are mid 70s and they are just realizing they will need help soon which means they are moving near me and I need to stay put.
You are putting an immense burden on your child for selfish reasons. They should be focused on job or finding and starting a family in their 20s, not caring for a parent 50 years their senior.
We'll, if he's FIREing when he says he will his assets should cover health care, and any other type of care he'll need. The kid won't be on the hook for any type of parental support. So the only selfish part may be "congrats on graduating from college,now I'm going to die and leave you alone"
Only?? I don't give two shits about the money, and my parents so far have refused all financial help I've offered them. Furthermore, they live 8 hours away, so I do what I can when I visit but I'm not involved in daily life help. It's the emotional stuff I'm thinking about. What's hard is spending my days worried about my dad's health while my friends continue to experience life with their parents as equals, rather than someone they're caring for.
In a healthy parental/child relationship, this is the stage where it really bears fruit. My friends travel with their parents, go to shows and dinner with them, and just have daily life experiences with them. My dad's cognitive function is slipping, my mom is exhausted from caring for him. (She's 8 years younger and so far pretty healthy.) I just am incredibly jealous of losing this time with both of them to my dad being old.
It's also a unique kind of loneliness to be experiencing this while my friends' parents are still healthy. My friends care a lot & ask after my dad constantly, but no one else really understand what it's like to wonder a little more every time you see your dad if it's the last time, or to constantly have a running script in my brain thinking of how he's doing and what he needs. I imagine by the time you hit 40 or so you at least have a little more community when you find yourself in that situation.
Sorry, I'm in the thick of all this having returned from Christmas with the family a couple days ago, and perhaps that's coloring my perceptions a bit more than it should. But I just don't think many other people commenting here are doing a good job putting themselves in the child's shoes. My childhood was wonderful--I didn't know any different than having a dad in his 40's and 50's, and that seems to be the life stage of most of the parents commenting. But being a 20 something with an almost 70 year old parent is hard and I wouldn't deliberately choose that path for anyone.
-
Parenting does not stop when they are 18. They need support through college and even young adulthood.i think 50 is just too old- particularly when you are a single parent.
-
It sounds like your minds made up as you seem to shoot down most opposite viewpoints. Times ticking. If your going to do it, do it. Your already going to be the "old dad" at every school/sporting event but as long as your not bothered by that you're good. I would say stay in tip top shape (you control a lot of that). There's already a bit of selfishness involved in waiting so long so don't compound by making your 20 something kid take care of sick parent if possible. I know as a 45 year father of two teenagers it'd be tough to do on my own but definitely not impossible given the right support from others.
As far as money goes, that's why you have it. To spend on things that enrich your life.
-
And this is a totally personal question, but when a woman hears the clock ticking, it is in her early mid 30's and once that happens really a 5-7 year window to make it happen, or decide against having kids. Basically for most women, we hit an age, where we either "make it happen" or realize a different life plan.
While men do not "bear" the risks etc of advanced maternal pregnancy and birth, advanced paternal age is associated with increased birth defects and complications https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/11/181101133759.htm. And again being male does not escape the associated issues of being an old parent (and in this case an older single parent). I am curious why the do or die moment comes so much later for men? Are men not as aware of the association with being an older and various risk factors, or they are OK taking that risk?
-
We'll, if he's FIREing when he says he will his assets should cover health care, and any other type of care he'll need. The kid won't be on the hook for any type of parental support. So the only selfish part may be "congrats on graduating from college,now I'm going to die and leave you alone"
Normal FIRE covers medical expenses, doctor visits, procedures etc, but most need very considerable assets to provide 100% support (ie, live in assistance etc). He mentions a $100k expense delaying FIRE by 3-5 years, that doesn't sound like he has massive reserves or income.
There are loads of little things seniors need help with. It could be as simple as driving them to the doctor or for groceries. Sometimes they can't clean anymore. It can be helping them sort through and read their medicine. It can be helping them keep their financials and accounts in order as technology changes. Very few people go from 100% healthy to natural, peaceful death of old age without help from lots around them. Hiring people to do all of that will require a Suze Orman sized fat FIRE.
No, it’s not the $100k that would delay fire by 3-5 years, it’s padding my fire for the kid to cover college and other expenses. I have a very good income. I’m not sure I get your argument, because wouldn’t it apply to everyone? Anyone who will get old in your opinion will need a very fat fire, according to you. That’s not the prevailing thinking. You’re exaggerating something to make your point. My kid won’t have to worry about supporting me and my aged care issues will be dealt with, by me.
-
Agree. I understand you're healthy now and have no reason to think you won't remain that way, but as a 20-something supporting an older parent through health issues while my friends travel the world with their parents and have 20 years left with them...I think it's just too late. I think my dad was too old when my parents had me (he was only 37 but he had known health issues even then) and it was a selfish decision. I'm sure you would be an amazing dad in the years you have with your kid, but I think you're really going to shortchange them by having a kid at your age.
This is an important side I forgot. Your child would just be spreading there wings and looking for job opportunities as you reading early 70s and decent chance start needing some help (physical and/or mental). These days the young adult will likely have to move a lot for career advancement, but if they need to assist caring for you that will complicate things. My parents are mid 70s and they are just realizing they will need help soon which means they are moving near me and I need to stay put.
You are putting an immense burden on your child for selfish reasons. They should be focused on job or finding and starting a family in their 20s, not caring for a parent 50 years their senior.
We'll, if he's FIREing when he says he will his assets should cover health care, and any other type of care he'll need. The kid won't be on the hook for any type of parental support. So the only selfish part may be "congrats on graduating from college,now I'm going to die and leave you alone"
Only?? I don't give two shits about the money, and my parents so far have refused all financial help I've offered them. Furthermore, they live 8 hours away, so I do what I can when I visit but I'm not involved in daily life help. It's the emotional stuff I'm thinking about. What's hard is spending my days worried about my dad's health while my friends continue to experience life with their parents as equals, rather than someone they're caring for.
In a healthy parental/child relationship, this is the stage where it really bears fruit. My friends travel with their parents, go to shows and dinner with them, and just have daily life experiences with them. My dad's cognitive function is slipping, my mom is exhausted from caring for him. (She's 8 years younger and so far pretty healthy.) I just am incredibly jealous of losing this time with both of them to my dad being old.
It's also a unique kind of loneliness to be experiencing this while my friends' parents are still healthy. My friends care a lot & ask after my dad constantly, but no one else really understand what it's like to wonder a little more every time you see your dad if it's the last time, or to constantly have a running script in my brain thinking of how he's doing and what he needs. I imagine by the time you hit 40 or so you at least have a little more community when you find yourself in that situation.
Sorry, I'm in the thick of all this having returned from Christmas with the family a couple days ago, and perhaps that's coloring my perceptions a bit more than it should. But I just don't think many other people commenting here are doing a good job putting themselves in the child's shoes. My childhood was wonderful--I didn't know any different than having a dad in his 40's and 50's, and that seems to be the life stage of most of the parents commenting. But being a 20 something with an almost 70 year old parent is hard and I wouldn't deliberately choose that path for anyone.
It does feel like your projecting a lot. I’m a lot older than you but my parents are close to their 70s. Both are active as hell and don’t need me looking after them or worrying about them. Hell, my grandmother is in her 90s and still lives alone and looks after herself. We aren’t stress balls worrying about them. Sure, that may happen but hasn’t yet. Nothing in life is guaranteed and your life and experience is not the same as everyone else’s. I was raised by a single mom, but you know who stepped up, my grandfathers. They were older and both invested a lot of time in me, because they had time to give. I would have taken a father at any age over one that was absent.
-
Parenting does not stop when they are 18. They need support through college and even young adulthood.i think 50 is just too old- particularly when you are a single parent.
Sure. I’m a healthy person living with access to health care and with financial means. My life span should put me in late 80s to mid 90s. I don’t smoke, do drugs and rarely drink. I exercise around 20 hours a week. So, if those reasonable projections pan out, I should see my kid into the 40s. That isn’t far fetched or unreasonable.
-
It sounds like your minds made up as you seem to shoot down most opposite viewpoints. Times ticking. If your going to do it, do it. Your already going to be the "old dad" at every school/sporting event but as long as your not bothered by that you're good. I would say stay in tip top shape (you control a lot of that). There's already a bit of selfishness involved in waiting so long so don't compound by making your 20 something kid take care of sick parent if possible. I know as a 45 year father of two teenagers it'd be tough to do on my own but definitely not impossible given the right support from others.
As far as money goes, that's why you have it. To spend on things that enrich your life.
Thank you for framing that it took me longer to find my now ex-partner and our 6 year struggle to have children as my selfish act for waiting so long. And yes, the dreaded old dad. You know what’s worse? The dreaded dad who is never around. And as for in shape, I do 20 hours of exercise a week, how are you going?
-
And this is a totally personal question, but when a woman hears the clock ticking, it is in her early mid 30's and once that happens really a 5-7 year window to make it happen, or decide against having kids. Basically for most women, we hit an age, where we either "make it happen" or realize a different life plan.
While men do not "bear" the risks etc of advanced maternal pregnancy and birth, advanced paternal age is associated with increased birth defects and complications https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/11/181101133759.htm. And again being male does not escape the associated issues of being an old parent (and in this case an older single parent). I am curious why the do or die moment comes so much later for men? Are men not as aware of the association with being an older and various risk factors, or they are OK taking that risk?
Umm, some of us men aren’t idiots. Trust me, I wish we had gotten pregnant 6 years ago, that was the plan, it was all on schedule and then nothing. Can’t even begin to tell you what we went through and the pain. Our marriage didn’t survive it. And that’s not uncommon. And yes, I’m aware of the research and that is definitely a concern. Yet, I also think that I will love my kid no matter what, special needs or not. Younger parents have special needs children all the time. These are things I need to work through and be comfortable with before committing.
-
Only you can make the decision, but I wouldn't let age be a determining factor if you're in good health and can honestly expect to remain that way. Age can be an advantage.
I got married at 42 and my child arrived just about the time I turned 47. Yes, I am a 55-year-old with an eight-year-old daughter. Yes, I will be 65 when I drive her off to attend college. So what. Age aside, I'm more fit than many men far younger than I am. More importantly, having a child later in life meant I was far more mature and financially stable than I would have been if I had a child in my 20s or 30s. I traveled the world and had the adventures I wanted to have earlier in my life, so having a child meant a new adventure, not giving up other things I wanted to do. I FIREd and left my job behind to be a full-time dad when I was 52 and my daughter was 5. Is having children late in life "selfish?" Maybe it is, but I think my daughter is happier with her "old" dad who rides bikes with her home from school and shows up at every school event than she would be with a twenty-years younger and less mature version who goes to work every day.
Being a single working dad is a lot of hard work. I did it for six months when my daughter was five. She was not an infant, I had no financial concerns, and I had both household help and an understanding employer. And it was still really tough. The experience gave me new respect for single parents who have to raise kids without the advantages I had.
Are you in the US? Your ability to take a year of family leave makes it sound like you live in Europe or perhaps the Antipodes. If you can get a year of paid leave and you live in a country with reasonable day care options, raising a child and keeping on track for FIRE might be a lot easier than it would be in the US. If you are close to FIRE, you might think about FIREing first and dedicating yourself to being a full-time dad.
FWIW, I would urge you to think very hard about your thought about moving to a LCOL country with a young child. That lifestyle might be your dream, but it might not be your child's. There are a lot of great reasons to live abroad and travel (my family is doing that), but there's also a lot to be said for letting children have strong connections to family and community. Living all their formative years and being educated in a foreign country can make kids aliens in their "home" country. It can also cause problems with getting jobs. And if you come from a country with strong medical/daycare/social/educational systems, you will want to think about what's going to replace them elsewhere.
As far as I'm concerned, there's no reason not to travel with children. My daughter has been flying on international flights since she was six weeks old. Traveling with her is a real pleasure, and I am happy to travel with her alone when my wife can't be with us. She handles 24-hour multi-leg flight itineraries like a pro.
Whatever you do, I wish you good luck and happiness.
Thanks for sharing this. I’m in Australia where 1 year family leave is pretty much the norm. I’d love to FIRE first but don’t think that’s possible unless I’m older than 50 when I get started and 50 is about as late as I’d like to go for a lot of the issues mentioned. I’d still need to work for 3-4 more years to make sure I had a good stache to maintain everything. The move to the LCOL is for 2 reasons, I’d love the kid to be fluent in another language, particularly Spanish, and I’d be able to afford more assistance easily, which would address many issues.
Also, yes, I’d have extensive plans and contingencies if anything happened to me, so that wouldn’t be an issue.
-
I know OP discounted the idea of adoption, but I'll bring the idea back up. Because of the posts above talking about "what ifs" with his health, and him being older already. What if his child is the unhealthy one? even if he lives to 80-90s, at some point he will die and be leaving a disabled/ill child behind. I saw he said he had a good network of people he would trust leaving his kid to if he passed, but would they be up to raising a kid that needs more help than a healthy kid? Sure he would be leaving money for the kid, but money doesn't raise a kid in itself.
With adoption, he could somewhat "pick" a healthy kid, instead of the genetic lottery of birth.
He could always FIRE and travel/homeschool the kid for the first decade too. No reason he has to give up traveling if he had a kid.
-
I know OP discounted the idea of adoption, but I'll bring the idea back up. Because of the posts above talking about "what ifs" with his health, and him being older already. What if his child is the unhealthy one? even if he lives to 80-90s, at some point he will die and be leaving a disabled/ill child behind. I saw he said he had a good network of people he would trust leaving his kid to if he passed, but would they be up to raising a kid that needs more help than a healthy kid? Sure he would be leaving money for the kid, but money doesn't raise a kid in itself.
With adoption, he could somewhat "pick" a healthy kid, instead of the genetic lottery of birth.
He could always FIRE and travel/homeschool the kid for the first decade too. No reason he has to give up traveling if he had a kid.
What happens when younger parents with special needs children die? This happens all the time. I have friends that will be caring for their child until they die and then what?
Anyways, adoption isn’t a viable option for other reasons, that I’m not going into. I’ve worked through that one and it can’t work so no need to discuss. If surrogacy wasn’t possible at all, I’d give up on that too.
-
I know OP discounted the idea of adoption, but I'll bring the idea back up. Because of the posts above talking about "what ifs" with his health, and him being older already. What if his child is the unhealthy one? even if he lives to 80-90s, at some point he will die and be leaving a disabled/ill child behind. I saw he said he had a good network of people he would trust leaving his kid to if he passed, but would they be up to raising a kid that needs more help than a healthy kid? Sure he would be leaving money for the kid, but money doesn't raise a kid in itself.
With adoption, he could somewhat "pick" a healthy kid, instead of the genetic lottery of birth.
He could always FIRE and travel/homeschool the kid for the first decade too. No reason he has to give up traveling if he had a kid.
Adoption may or may not be an option for him either, depending on where he lives, what country he would adopt from. I know a lot of countries restrict by a) age of parent and b) whether they are single parent or not, and c) whether they are same sex parents adopting. I will assume he has explored his options.
-
No, it’s not the $100k that would delay fire by 3-5 years, it’s padding my fire for the kid to cover college and other expenses. I have a very good income. I’m not sure I get your argument, because wouldn’t it apply to everyone? Anyone who will get old in your opinion will need a very fat fire, according to you. That’s not the prevailing thinking. You’re exaggerating something to make your point. My kid won’t have to worry about supporting me and my aged care issues will be dealt with, by me.
No, it applies to a single parent who is 50 years senior to their child who will expect zero help from their child. Typically a parent is 20-30 years older. Meaning when the adult is entering 70s, the child is already 40-50 with an established career, family, and home who has lots of resources (time, people, money) to help a parent age smoothly.
How much time have you spent around people 75-95? Unless you are fine with living in an assisted living home much earlier than you would otherwise need. My grandmother lived well in an apartment on her own to 91, BUT she needed small regular amounts of help from her children and grandkids. This isn't even talking about the very real risk or cancer or dementia that is largely inevitable if you live long enough. This is only exasperated being single. At least with a married couple, the odds are much better one will stay physically/mentally sound longer and can help with those small tasks.
-
What happens when younger parents with special needs children die? This happens all the time. I have friends that will be caring for their child until they die and then what?
Anyways, adoption isn’t a viable option for other reasons, that I’m not going into. I’ve worked through that one and it can’t work so no need to discuss. If surrogacy wasn’t possible at all, I’d give up on that too.
If it won't work for other reasons, then it won't work.
I was only adding that younger parents tend to not die together, so one would be around to raise them. If a single parent, people also tend to have similarly aged family/friends to take care of their orphaned kids. I was thinking with you being in your 50s, your family/friends would be in their later years as well. That still doesn't help a kid if they are still having to look after an older "parent" whether that is yourself or the guardian you choose. Unless you have nephew /cousin/sibling/friends in their 30s, two decades younger than you. It isn't uncommon that a grandparent is raising their grandchildren because the parent for some reason is not around for example. But your parents (their grandparents, guessing are around 70-80 currently) would be dead by the time they hit their teen years unless your parents had you really young or they are up for raising kids at 100 years old.
-
Really unfair to the child, unless you are the pinnacle of health and fitness. You will be nearing or at 70 by the time they are 18. Lot of people can go down hill fast and unexpectedly in their 60s and there is no backup if something happens to you. You also won't be fit and have the endurance a child deserves in their 7-15 stage when you should be getting them out and active.
There is also a real risk you will leave that child alone in the world in their early 20s as you reach mid 70s. One parent being much older is fine, but intentionally having only one older parent is selfish.
Probably someone hit on this already - but I'm assuming he knows how healthy he is already?
My father was in his mid-40s when his last 2 kids were born, he lived to be 81.
Many of my friends have had children in their late 40's, early 50s.
Some of my friends had older parents like me, and their parents lived to be 90+.
I assume that he'll have a will/ trust and someone willing to take in the child or children if something happens. Because: crap happens, even when you are young. I could make a laundry list of family and friends who died while in the military. Fires. Mudslides. Floods. Car accidents.
My friends adopted when in their later 50s. They are in their 60s with elementary school children and they are in amazing health. (More than enough energy to keep up with their children.) (AND they have older children to take in the younger ones if something horrible happened.)
-
Agree. I understand you're healthy now and have no reason to think you won't remain that way, but as a 20-something supporting an older parent through health issues while my friends travel the world with their parents and have 20 years left with them...I think it's just too late. I think my dad was too old when my parents had me (he was only 37 but he had known health issues even then) and it was a selfish decision. I'm sure you would be an amazing dad in the years you have with your kid, but I think you're really going to shortchange them by having a kid at your age.
This is an important side I forgot. Your child would just be spreading there wings and looking for job opportunities as you reading early 70s and decent chance start needing some help (physical and/or mental). These days the young adult will likely have to move a lot for career advancement, but if they need to assist caring for you that will complicate things. My parents are mid 70s and they are just realizing they will need help soon which means they are moving near me and I need to stay put.
You are putting an immense burden on your child for selfish reasons. They should be focused on job or finding and starting a family in their 20s, not caring for a parent 50 years their senior.
Or...he could not be a jerk who expects his child to give up everything for him?
I mean I get it - a lot of families have this dynamic. A parent gets sick, and the child (usually a daughter), takes care of them. My mom did this with her father when my grandma died. My grandpa wasn't sick, he just needed help with cooking and cleaning.
You realize, though, that it's entirely possible for this to not happen? I mean, I loved my parents but this was NOT our family dynamic. We were expected to leave the house at 18-20 (forever) and we were not expected to move back home to care for elderly parents. A visit here and there, sure.
-
It sounds like your mind is made up. Why are you asking here, if you shoot down anyone who cautions against it?
Since you put fatherhood in terms of money, what are your thoughts if you spend $100k and don't get a child? You can't buy a baby and pregnancy doesn't guarantee one. Reproductive fertility doesn't even guarantee a pregnancy.
I spent nearly $20,000 in medical bills for my first son, who I was pregnant with for 29 weeks and didn't get to bring home. That was a natural, low risk (we were both under 35 and healthy) pregnancy. Older sperm carries risks just like older eggs do.
-
No, it’s not the $100k that would delay fire by 3-5 years, it’s padding my fire for the kid to cover college and other expenses. I have a very good income. I’m not sure I get your argument, because wouldn’t it apply to everyone? Anyone who will get old in your opinion will need a very fat fire, according to you. That’s not the prevailing thinking. You’re exaggerating something to make your point. My kid won’t have to worry about supporting me and my aged care issues will be dealt with, by me.
No, it applies to a single parent who is 50 years senior to their child who will expect zero help from their child. Typically a parent is 20-30 years older. Meaning when the adult is entering 70s, the child is already 40-50 with an established career, family, and home who has lots of resources (time, people, money) to help a parent age smoothly.
How much time have you spent around people 75-95? Unless you are fine with living in an assisted living home much earlier than you would otherwise need. My grandmother lived well in an apartment on her own to 91, BUT she needed small regular amounts of help from her children and grandkids. This isn't even talking about the very real risk or cancer or dementia that is largely inevitable if you live long enough. This is only exasperated being single. At least with a married couple, the odds are much better one will stay physically/mentally sound longer and can help with those small tasks.
I know lots of older people in their 70s and 80s, including relatives.
I have money.
But I also have a full time job and 2 children. We are in our late 40's/ early 50's. We don't live near family. I'm not sure why I should be expected to help them age smoothly? I think they call it the sandwich generation for a reason.
In my husband's family, it's the retired family members in their 60s who help the 80 and 90 somethings age smoothly.
-
If I was in your shoes I’d travel the world and find other ways to satisfy that parental need inside me. It is hard being a parent! I divorced last year, my ex is not in our lives because he’s an alcoholic, he chose a different path and threw us away. I have two grown children, one son 21 still in college so I’m helping him launch and a daughter, 25, that’s married but I don’t feel good about the man she married. I feel like a single mother, anything and everything they may need in life now or later falls on me if they can’t do it themselves. We don’t live near family and as it is my son goes to school states away from my daughter and I.
I know I don’t have to feel this way but it’s how it is for now. I’m constantly telling them to stay close to each other if something happens to me. My future plans involve putting them first and me second. I’m 48 and take good care of myself so I can be there for them as long as possible. I hope to someday help them buy homes and leave them a nice inheritance, it’s always on my mind. I fear losing them too, or outliving them. Ugh the worries!
I tell them they don’t have to have children. I respect their decisions no matter what they choose but to think extra carefully about becoming a parent. Right now they both have said they aren’t set on having kids. Won’t lie I’m extremely relieved to here them say that. If I become a grandparent of course I’d be happy but there’s another life I’ll feel responsible for, that I’d love no matter what and feel the need to protect and be there for them as much as possible.
It’s just very hard. Still leveling out from a traumatic divorce, we used to be a close family.
And don’t think you will feel this loss of being childless forever, life happens and we change. You may be totally ok with it someday.
If you do choose to have a child, just keep on trucking like you are now, staying healthy and doing the best you can. I was a sahm and I don’t regret it at all. Best thing I did for my family even though I’m paying for that w no job skills. I can survive on my divorce settling thankfully.
Y’all w your “what if’s”, holy scary crap! Life is full of what ifs. Mrthatsdifferent doesn’t come off as a total idiot that didn’t think of these scenarios. Makes me feel like I should crawl and hide in a hole.
Good people should have children or find a way to influence them. More power to them.
-
I think you should go for it, as soon as possible! Your age is a concern, but as someone else mentioned, there is a likelihood that you will not be single forever . It sounds like you have already traveled and really want a child, and have the resources.
-
I’m struggling with this and trying to work through it. I’m single now and fine with it but there’s a part of me that still would like to raise a child, but I’ll be 50 in a couple of years. If that doesn’t happen, then the plan will be, live my best life traveling the world. Honestly not sure what path to go down as the former is fraught with many concerns. But I’d be such a great dad!
So, Option A, the kid: I’d have to the surrogacy route (please don’t suggest other ways, they’ve all been thought through and won’t work for various reasons). Most places that were more affordable have closed to single men so that basically leaves the US, where it will cost over $100k. If I go that direction, it would mean putting my FIRE plans on hold for probably 3-5 extra years as all my plans now are focused me as a single guy, not a single parent. That’s not horrible, but to be honest, I’d love to be a SAHP for my kid as much as possible and not work, especially the first 5-7 years, so FIRE would be ideal during that time. It also just feels like so much money, when most people have them for free. Depressing.
Option B: accept that I’ll always be childless, focus on being child free and a great and generous uncle and FIRE in 4 years, spending my life traveling the globe. Sounds great and I love it, except nothing obsesses me more than watching parents with kids and imagining what my life would be like if I had that? I’m so envious. I think I would trade anything, but then, push come to shove, I wonder because I worry that the cost is too great.
Anyways, love your thoughts, but please be gentle as this is quite personal and sensitive and I’m not looking at getting into an argument with anyone. If you can’t have kids and you want them, it sucks so much you wouldn’t believe it.
I'll offer my perspective as a relatively new parent. My wife and I had our first baby about a year ago. We're in our mid-30s, in excellent health, and we live close to her retired parents, so we have an extra layer of support. We aren't close to FIRE but we have a lot saved and don't really have any worries around money. Even with all of that, things are often stressful. We sleep less, we spend a lot less time with our friends (this may sound like a minor gripe but the big drop in meaningful social interaction definitely affects us), we struggle to balance work and baby care, we do fewer intellectually stimulating activities. "Leisure" time is maybe an hour after the baby goes to sleep and after we finish cleaning before we sleep ourselves. We worry about the baby when she has a fever, when she doesn't sleep, when she doesn't eat, when she's extremely fussy for some unknown reason. And these stresses would undoubtedly be harder to deal with if we didn't have each other. Of course, there is a rich reward in exchange for all of that as we watched our daughter grow from an infant into a baby and now see her growing from a baby into a toddler. It's heart-melting when she smiles at us, or when she calls for my wife with "Mama." We also frequently take her out with us in the city we live in and do whatever activities we can with her, which is a joy. But the fact that all of this is ultimately very rewarding doesn't make it easy. I'm very happy that we decided to have a child and very excited to see her growing up more and more every day, but it's deeply challenging in many ways.
If you choose to do this by yourself it will be years of ceaseless devotion through sleepless nights when your baby is sick, or has colic, or is simply experiencing sleep regression, frantically eating cereal for dinner because your baby can't fall asleep and screams the moment you leave her, rushing to a public bathroom because your baby let loose with a diaper-busting poop the one time that week your schedule permitted you to take her with you to meet a friend, and so on. Obviously, billions of people throughout the world raise children safely to adulthood, so it's not like any of these early challenges are insurmountable. But I think it's worth thinking long and hard about whether you want to devote years of your life to doing this alone. As an aside, if you have the ability to hire sometime to help full-time at least a few days a week for the first couple years, I'm certain that would make a huge difference and provide you with some breathing room.
-
The OP will make his own decision and I wish him the very best however things turn out. I have two kiddos we had to work rather hard to have. The first year is the most difficult thing ever. The hardest thing I have ever done. It then it starts to get a little bit better, and a little bit easier. At some point I looked up and realized that my life was so filled with joy and love that I hadn’t imagined it could be like that.
-
Agree. I understand you're healthy now and have no reason to think you won't remain that way, but as a 20-something supporting an older parent through health issues while my friends travel the world with their parents and have 20 years left with them...I think it's just too late. I think my dad was too old when my parents had me (he was only 37 but he had known health issues even then) and it was a selfish decision. I'm sure you would be an amazing dad in the years you have with your kid, but I think you're really going to shortchange them by having a kid at your age.
This is an important side I forgot. Your child would just be spreading there wings and looking for job opportunities as you reading early 70s and decent chance start needing some help (physical and/or mental). These days the young adult will likely have to move a lot for career advancement, but if they need to assist caring for you that will complicate things. My parents are mid 70s and they are just realizing they will need help soon which means they are moving near me and I need to stay put.
You are putting an immense burden on your child for selfish reasons. They should be focused on job or finding and starting a family in their 20s, not caring for a parent 50 years their senior.
We'll, if he's FIREing when he says he will his assets should cover health care, and any other type of care he'll need. The kid won't be on the hook for any type of parental support. So the only selfish part may be "congrats on graduating from college,now I'm going to die and leave you alone"
Only?? I don't give two shits about the money, and my parents so far have refused all financial help I've offered them. Furthermore, they live 8 hours away, so I do what I can when I visit but I'm not involved in daily life help. It's the emotional stuff I'm thinking about. What's hard is spending my days worried about my dad's health while my friends continue to experience life with their parents as equals, rather than someone they're caring for.
In a healthy parental/child relationship, this is the stage where it really bears fruit. My friends travel with their parents, go to shows and dinner with them, and just have daily life experiences with them. My dad's cognitive function is slipping, my mom is exhausted from caring for him. (She's 8 years younger and so far pretty healthy.) I just am incredibly jealous of losing this time with both of them to my dad being old.
It's also a unique kind of loneliness to be experiencing this while my friends' parents are still healthy. My friends care a lot & ask after my dad constantly, but no one else really understand what it's like to wonder a little more every time you see your dad if it's the last time, or to constantly have a running script in my brain thinking of how he's doing and what he needs. I imagine by the time you hit 40 or so you at least have a little more community when you find yourself in that situation.
Sorry, I'm in the thick of all this having returned from Christmas with the family a couple days ago, and perhaps that's coloring my perceptions a bit more than it should. But I just don't think many other people commenting here are doing a good job putting themselves in the child's shoes. My childhood was wonderful--I didn't know any different than having a dad in his 40's and 50's, and that seems to be the life stage of most of the parents commenting. But being a 20 something with an almost 70 year old parent is hard and I wouldn't deliberately choose that path for anyone.
It does feel like your projecting a lot. I’m a lot older than you but my parents are close to their 70s. Both are active as hell and don’t need me looking after them or worrying about them. Hell, my grandmother is in her 90s and still lives alone and looks after herself. We aren’t stress balls worrying about them. Sure, that may happen but hasn’t yet. Nothing in life is guaranteed and your life and experience is not the same as everyone else’s. I was raised by a single mom, but you know who stepped up, my grandfathers. They were older and both invested a lot of time in me, because they had time to give. I would have taken a father at any age over one that was absent.
I’d have to agree that there is a LOT of projection going on here. I was raised by a grandmother who was 57 when I was born. She’s almost 90 now. She’s slowing down but still relatively healthy. The fact that I’m going to lose her 30 years earlier than I would if she were my mother doesn’t consume me. It is what it is and I’m grateful for the time we have shared. I’m also not convinced that losing a parent is significantly easier in any decade of life. What you’re going through sounds like it’s really difficult, but blaming your father for bringing you onto existence when he was 37 seems irrational.
-
I read the OP... So, adoption, fostering and finding a partner who already has a kid are all out as options?
You have to have a kid that comes from your own balls to make you feel complete? Just curious.
You’re not being curious, you’re being mean and as mentioned, I won’t spend time addressing things I’ve considered but won’t work for various reasons, especially not to satisfy your “curiosity”.
No, really am curious. And was paraphrasing Dave Chapelle BTW. Not sure why you're here even asking about what you should do since your mind is already made up. Time's a ticking...
-
No, it’s not the $100k that would delay fire by 3-5 years, it’s padding my fire for the kid to cover college and other expenses. I have a very good income. I’m not sure I get your argument, because wouldn’t it apply to everyone? Anyone who will get old in your opinion will need a very fat fire, according to you. That’s not the prevailing thinking. You’re exaggerating something to make your point. My kid won’t have to worry about supporting me and my aged care issues will be dealt with, by me.
No, it applies to a single parent who is 50 years senior to their child who will expect zero help from their child. Typically a parent is 20-30 years older. Meaning when the adult is entering 70s, the child is already 40-50 with an established career, family, and home who has lots of resources (time, people, money) to help a parent age smoothly.
How much time have you spent around people 75-95? Unless you are fine with living in an assisted living home much earlier than you would otherwise need. My grandmother lived well in an apartment on her own to 91, BUT she needed small regular amounts of help from her children and grandkids. This isn't even talking about the very real risk or cancer or dementia that is largely inevitable if you live long enough. This is only exasperated being single. At least with a married couple, the odds are much better one will stay physically/mentally sound longer and can help with those small tasks.
Are you only focusing on married couples who stay together that long? Or a partner doesn’t die early, leaving the kids with a single parent still? Remember half of marriages end in divorce, so that’s a lot of kids dealing with single older parents.
-
Y’all w your “what if’s”, holy scary crap! Life is full of what ifs.
Getting old is not a "what if", it is inevitable.
At 50+ you are effectively becoming a single grandparent raising a child with little family safety net. Can it be done without issue? Yes, as many people have attested (availability bias). Is it ideal? No. Does it have a very large, unnecessary amount of risk? Yes. No one passes up growing up with two parents 20-30 years their senior for the 50+ year old single grandparent without a really good reason. It's Plan C or D at best, but you want to use it as Plan A. No one can stop or change your mind at this point. Doesn't change the fact it is a selfish decision at the cost of the child.
Are you only focusing on married couples who stay together that long? Or a partner doesn’t die early, leaving the kids with a single parent still? Remember half of marriages end in divorce, so that’s a lot of kids dealing with single older parents.
Incorrect statistic based on a study of the 1980s. It is flawed because many divorcees remarry and divorce multiple times. The rate is also dropping a lot lately with new generations.
Regardless, my point was that a normal aged couple (who divorces or not), still has a safety net. If one parent falls, the second is still likely alive and both have potential to remarry. They are also young enough to have grandparents who would be the same age difference as you from the child which generates 4 more possible support routes. That couple can also have more than one child to help support them or a sibling (not financially necessarily) when they are older. Is that necessary or the case in all family dynamics? No, but I feel it works better.
-
I read the OP... So, adoption, fostering and finding a partner who already has a kid are all out as options?
You have to have a kid that comes from your own balls to make you feel complete? Just curious.
You’re not being curious, you’re being mean and as mentioned, I won’t spend time addressing things I’ve considered but won’t work for various reasons, especially not to satisfy your “curiosity”.
No, really am curious. And was paraphrasing Dave Chapelle BTW. Not sure why you're here even asking about what you should do since your mind is already made up. Time's a ticking...
What are you doing here when I’m trying to work through something personal and sensitive and all you have to contribute is cruelty and snark? I’m not here to satisfy your curiosity and you have nothing of value to offer, so please find someone else to menace.
-
My gut instinct is to advise "no" to becoming a single father at 50 years old. I can very much relate to the deep desire to have offspring of my own as it was a concern earlier in my life that I would not be able to have them, so I went thru a lot of the inner turmoil of this situation. I did end up having two boys of my own, but my goodness that first year is insane even with a traditional family unit. I cant imagine taking that on as a 50 year old single man. But, you're going to do what you want, but if it were me... I would go the fun uncle / mentor kids route. Keep us updated.
-
Really unfair to the child, unless you are the pinnacle of health and fitness. You will be nearing or at 70 by the time they are 18. Lot of people can go down hill fast and unexpectedly in their 60s and there is no backup if something happens to you. You also won't be fit and have the endurance a child deserves in their 7-15 stage when you should be getting them out and active.
There is also a real risk you will leave that child alone in the world in their early 20s as you reach mid 70s. One parent being much older is fine, but intentionally having only one older parent is selfish.
Probably someone hit on this already - but I'm assuming he knows how healthy he is already?
My father was in his mid-40s when his last 2 kids were born, he lived to be 81.
Many of my friends have had children in their late 40's, early 50s.
Some of my friends had older parents like me, and their parents lived to be 90+.
I assume that he'll have a will/ trust and someone willing to take in the child or children if something happens. Because: crap happens, even when you are young. I could make a laundry list of family and friends who died while in the military. Fires. Mudslides. Floods. Car accidents.
My friends adopted when in their later 50s. They are in their 60s with elementary school children and they are in amazing health. (More than enough energy to keep up with their children.) (AND they have older children to take in the younger ones if something horrible happened.)
Thank you!
-
It sounds like your mind is made up. Why are you asking here, if you shoot down anyone who cautions against it?
Since you put fatherhood in terms of money, what are your thoughts if you spend $100k and don't get a child? You can't buy a baby and pregnancy doesn't guarantee one. Reproductive fertility doesn't even guarantee a pregnancy.
I spent nearly $20,000 in medical bills for my first son, who I was pregnant with for 29 weeks and didn't get to bring home. That was a natural, low risk (we were both under 35 and healthy) pregnancy. Older sperm carries risks just like older eggs do.
My mind isn’t made up, but it’s leaning that way. What you call shooting down is me reflecting on the various issues and addressing them. Most of the concerns are valid and I need to know I’m ready for this challenge. I don’t want to have a child to see it get disadvantaged by my choice, that’s not the point. But I’m definitely getting defensive at some of the things mentioned. I know so many people that had kids young who were unprepared and were not great parents, so younger equals better isn’t always true.
And ya, the issue of spending the money and still being childless bothers me as well. I’ve already spent over $30k and without a child and heartache to last several lifetimes. If I do this, it’s the last shot and then I will have to move my heart on. If you think any of this is easy for me, think again.
-
If I was in your shoes I’d travel the world and find other ways to satisfy that parental need inside me. It is hard being a parent! I divorced last year, my ex is not in our lives because he’s an alcoholic, he chose a different path and threw us away. I have two grown children, one son 21 still in college so I’m helping him launch and a daughter, 25, that’s married but I don’t feel good about the man she married. I feel like a single mother, anything and everything they may need in life now or later falls on me if they can’t do it themselves. We don’t live near family and as it is my son goes to school states away from my daughter and I.
I know I don’t have to feel this way but it’s how it is for now. I’m constantly telling them to stay close to each other if something happens to me. My future plans involve putting them first and me second. I’m 48 and take good care of myself so I can be there for them as long as possible. I hope to someday help them buy homes and leave them a nice inheritance, it’s always on my mind. I fear losing them too, or outliving them. Ugh the worries!
I tell them they don’t have to have children. I respect their decisions no matter what they choose but to think extra carefully about becoming a parent. Right now they both have said they aren’t set on having kids. Won’t lie I’m extremely relieved to here them say that. If I become a grandparent of course I’d be happy but there’s another life I’ll feel responsible for, that I’d love no matter what and feel the need to protect and be there for them as much as possible.
It’s just very hard. Still leveling out from a traumatic divorce, we used to be a close family.
And don’t think you will feel this loss of being childless forever, life happens and we change. You may be totally ok with it someday.
If you do choose to have a child, just keep on trucking like you are now, staying healthy and doing the best you can. I was a sahm and I don’t regret it at all. Best thing I did for my family even though I’m paying for that w no job skills. I can survive on my divorce settling thankfully.
Y’all w your “what if’s”, holy scary crap! Life is full of what ifs. Mrthatsdifferent doesn’t come off as a total idiot that didn’t think of these scenarios. Makes me feel like I should crawl and hide in a hole.
Good people should have children or find a way to influence them. More power to them.
Thanks for sharing that. I feel for what you’re going through. Does anyone have it easy as a Parent? Whether married or not, younger or older, with money or without? Being responsible for another life is hard and it’s constant. I don’t have illusions. Yes, I could chose th easy way and not have kids, but do you know the biggest risk group for suicides and early death? Single, childless men.
I’m amazed at all the pain with children everyone is mentioning and none of the joy of being a parent.
-
I’m struggling with this and trying to work through it. I’m single now and fine with it but there’s a part of me that still would like to raise a child, but I’ll be 50 in a couple of years. If that doesn’t happen, then the plan will be, live my best life traveling the world. Honestly not sure what path to go down as the former is fraught with many concerns. But I’d be such a great dad!
So, Option A, the kid: I’d have to the surrogacy route (please don’t suggest other ways, they’ve all been thought through and won’t work for various reasons). Most places that were more affordable have closed to single men so that basically leaves the US, where it will cost over $100k. If I go that direction, it would mean putting my FIRE plans on hold for probably 3-5 extra years as all my plans now are focused me as a single guy, not a single parent. That’s not horrible, but to be honest, I’d love to be a SAHP for my kid as much as possible and not work, especially the first 5-7 years, so FIRE would be ideal during that time. It also just feels like so much money, when most people have them for free. Depressing.
Option B: accept that I’ll always be childless, focus on being child free and a great and generous uncle and FIRE in 4 years, spending my life traveling the globe. Sounds great and I love it, except nothing obsesses me more than watching parents with kids and imagining what my life would be like if I had that? I’m so envious. I think I would trade anything, but then, push come to shove, I wonder because I worry that the cost is too great.
Anyways, love your thoughts, but please be gentle as this is quite personal and sensitive and I’m not looking at getting into an argument with anyone. If you can’t have kids and you want them, it sucks so much you wouldn’t believe it.
I'll offer my perspective as a relatively new parent. My wife and I had our first baby about a year ago. We're in our mid-30s, in excellent health, and we live close to her retired parents, so we have an extra layer of support. We aren't close to FIRE but we have a lot saved and don't really have any worries around money. Even with all of that, things are often stressful. We sleep less, we spend a lot less time with our friends (this may sound like a minor gripe but the big drop in meaningful social interaction definitely affects us), we struggle to balance work and baby care, we do fewer intellectually stimulating activities. "Leisure" time is maybe an hour after the baby goes to sleep and after we finish cleaning before we sleep ourselves. We worry about the baby when she has a fever, when she doesn't sleep, when she doesn't eat, when she's extremely fussy for some unknown reason. And these stresses would undoubtedly be harder to deal with if we didn't have each other. Of course, there is a rich reward in exchange for all of that as we watched our daughter grow from an infant into a baby and now see her growing from a baby into a toddler. It's heart-melting when she smiles at us, or when she calls for my wife with "Mama." We also frequently take her out with us in the city we live in and do whatever activities we can with her, which is a joy. But the fact that all of this is ultimately very rewarding doesn't make it easy. I'm very happy that we decided to have a child and very excited to see her growing up more and more every day, but it's deeply challenging in many ways.
If you choose to do this by yourself it will be years of ceaseless devotion through sleepless nights when your baby is sick, or has colic, or is simply experiencing sleep regression, frantically eating cereal for dinner because your baby can't fall asleep and screams the moment you leave her, rushing to a public bathroom because your baby let loose with a diaper-busting poop the one time that week your schedule permitted you to take her with you to meet a friend, and so on. Obviously, billions of people throughout the world raise children safely to adulthood, so it's not like any of these early challenges are insurmountable. But I think it's worth thinking long and hard about whether you want to devote years of your life to doing this alone. As an aside, if you have the ability to hire sometime to help full-time at least a few days a week for the first couple years, I'm certain that would make a huge difference and provide you with some breathing room.
Thanks. I’ve done all of that with my siblings and other kids, and it doesn’t go in forever, but I’m sure it feels like that now for you. The first year I’d be around my family as I can take a whole year off work with job guaranteed to be there when I go back. Year 2-4, I’d have assistance. Year 5 and beyond I’d be a SAHP with additional assistance and kid would be in school. It’s doable.
-
The OP will make his own decision and I wish him the very best however things turn out. I have two kiddos we had to work rather hard to have. The first year is the most difficult thing ever. The hardest thing I have ever done. It then it starts to get a little bit better, and a little bit easier. At some point I looked up and realized that my life was so filled with joy and love that I hadn’t imagined it could be like that.
Beautiful. One thing I worked out, no twins or a second one. One will be enough for me, following MMM guidance on that and knowing that I couldn’t manage 2 alone.
-
Y’all w your “what if’s”, holy scary crap! Life is full of what ifs.
Getting old is not a "what if", it is inevitable.
At 50+ you are effectively becoming a single grandparent raising a child with little family safety net. Can it be done without issue? Yes, as many people have attested (availability bias). Is it ideal? No. Does it have a very large, unnecessary amount of risk? Yes. No one passes up growing up with two parents 20-30 years their senior for the 50+ year old single grandparent without a really good reason. It's Plan C or D at best, but you want to use it as Plan A. No one can stop or change your mind at this point. Doesn't change the fact it is a selfish decision at the cost of the child.
Are you only focusing on married couples who stay together that long? Or a partner doesn’t die early, leaving the kids with a single parent still? Remember half of marriages end in divorce, so that’s a lot of kids dealing with single older parents.
Incorrect statistic based on a study of the 1980s. It is flawed because many divorcees remarry and divorce multiple times. The rate is also dropping a lot lately with new generations.
Regardless, my point was that a normal aged couple (who divorces or not), still has a safety net. If one parent falls, the second is still likely alive and both have potential to remarry. They are also young enough to have grandparents who would be the same age difference as you from the child which generates 4 more possible support routes. That couple can also have more than one child to help support them or a sibling (not financially necessarily) when they are older. Is that necessary or the case in all family dynamics? No, but I feel it works better.
There are enough people in this world. Arguably anyone having a child or anyone having more than 1 is making a selfish decision. Anyone having s child without their finances in place is making a selfish decision. I could go on, so could you if you weren’t being so myopic. We all don’t get fairy tale families and yet many of us survive and thrive. Nature finds a way. So yeah, it might be selfish, but that would group me with the norm.
-
The OP will make his own decision and I wish him the very best however things turn out. I have two kiddos we had to work rather hard to have. The first year is the most difficult thing ever. The hardest thing I have ever done. It then it starts to get a little bit better, and a little bit easier. At some point I looked up and realized that my life was so filled with joy and love that I hadn’t imagined it could be like that.
Beautiful. One thing I worked out, no twins or a second one. One will be enough for me, following MMM guidance on that and knowing that I couldn’t manage 2 alone.
And if the surrogate pregnancy results in twins? If you are dead set against that, just make sure you include selective reduction in the contract (assuming that's legal) and the the surrogate is 100% in board with doing so.
-
I don't see your age as a huge issue. My husband was 46 and 49 when our girls were born and he is a fabulous dad. It's true that there are greater risks since he is older but I'm 10 years younger. I guess as a single parent this risk would be greater. Do you have family who could take over if something were to happen to you while the child is still a minor?
Have you investigated fostering in your state? That's what I would do in your shoes.
ETA - as others have said, being a single parent, especially during those first 3-4 years will be insanely hard. I found it incredibly hard even as a married parent. My younger daughter was a truly rotten sleeper - did not sleep through the night until she was almost 2. She used to wake up around 4 times a night until that age. And with both kids the first 6 months or so were the hardest thing I've ever been through.
-
It sounds like your mind is made up. Why are you asking here, if you shoot down anyone who cautions against it?
Since you put fatherhood in terms of money, what are your thoughts if you spend $100k and don't get a child? You can't buy a baby and pregnancy doesn't guarantee one. Reproductive fertility doesn't even guarantee a pregnancy.
I spent nearly $20,000 in medical bills for my first son, who I was pregnant with for 29 weeks and didn't get to bring home. That was a natural, low risk (we were both under 35 and healthy) pregnancy. Older sperm carries risks just like older eggs do.
My mind isn’t made up, but it’s leaning that way. What you call shooting down is me reflecting on the various issues and addressing them. Most of the concerns are valid and I need to know I’m ready for this challenge. I don’t want to have a child to see it get disadvantaged by my choice, that’s not the point. But I’m definitely getting defensive at some of the things mentioned. I know so many people that had kids young who were unprepared and were not great parents, so younger equals better isn’t always true.
And ya, the issue of spending the money and still being childless bothers me as well. I’ve already spent over $30k and without a child and heartache to last several lifetimes. If I do this, it’s the last shot and then I will have to move my heart on. If you think any of this is easy for me, think again.
My now daughter (nearly 2) is an incredible joy. But if I knew the life changing, soul crushing heartache my son would bring, I probably would have stayed child free. I never imagined a worse case as bad as it was. Once we lost him though, the need to have a baby was huger than it had been before.
-
Breastfeeding will be difficult.
-
As someone who had kids relatively late I think the upside of doing this late in life is maturity. You probably have your shit together way more than someone in their mid 20's, emotionally, financially, etc. and will be able to provide great stability, love and life advice.
That said I can't imagine wanting to be a single parent in your 50's. It's an insane amount of work and is physically, mentally and emotionally draining. It puts MASSIVE constraints on your free time, lifestyle flexibility and finances. I'd also be a bit worried about later life health and how that might affect a kid or teen.
I'd weigh very carefully whether this is a grass is always greener type of thing or truly something you want to commit to. Cause it's a hell of a commitment, especially in the way you're talking about doing it. Looking at it from my perspective as a 44 year old dad of two young ones, no way in hell I'd do it at 50. But of course you're not me. ;)
Thanks buddy for the caution. The problem is I’ll never know if I can handle it or not until I do it. And come on, there are a shit ton of parents who are young and active and really bad at parenting. People adapt, I’ll just have to be conscious and smart about everything, but that’s what parents should be doing anyways.
Just getting back to this. No doubt you'll adapt and get through it. My point was just that you might very well end up in a situation where you're living in self imposed struggle vs sipping mai tais by the pool. You may very well feel the struggle is worth it, but go in eyes open. The responsibilities of parenting put great demands and stress on you. There are of course great moments where your heart swells with pride, or you choke back tears from the little guys doing something so sweet. But that is 10%, there is the 90% of work and drudgery to get there. :D
-
Breastfeeding will be difficult.
It's difficult even when you have mammary glands.
Thankfully there are plenty of ways to feed a baby.
-
What @Awesomeness said. Do it! It sounds like you already have regret over the topic and that will only grow. As the mom in a family where my husband is the primary parent I would say just be ready to have to work to find your fellow parent tribe. There are plenty of mom groups out there, but a sad lack of dad groups. You'll just be continuing to turn the tide of gender stereotypes - an added benefit beyond the obvious.
-
The OP will make his own decision and I wish him the very best however things turn out. I have two kiddos we had to work rather hard to have. The first year is the most difficult thing ever. The hardest thing I have ever done. It then it starts to get a little bit better, and a little bit easier. At some point I looked up and realized that my life was so filled with joy and love that I hadn’t imagined it could be like that.
Beautiful. One thing I worked out, no twins or a second one. One will be enough for me, following MMM guidance on that and knowing that I couldn’t manage 2 alone.
And if the surrogate pregnancy results in twins? If you are dead set against that, just make sure you include selective reduction in the contract (assuming that's legal) and the the surrogate is 100% in board with doing so.
Deadset against? No, just won’t consciously try for them, won’t have more than one embryo implanted. If it happens, it would mean a major change to FIRE plans cause I’m pretty sure I’d need to work much longer, but I’d do that if I had to.
-
Breastfeeding will be difficult.
Cute. I wasn’t breastfed. Hands up for all of us that weren’t? We all somehow made it.
-
What @Awesomeness said. Do it! It sounds like you already have regret over the topic and that will only grow. As the mom in a family where my husband is the primary parent I would say just be ready to have to work to find your fellow parent tribe. There are plenty of mom groups out there, but a sad lack of dad groups. You'll just be continuing to turn the tide of gender stereotypes - an added benefit beyond the obvious.
Challenging gender stereotypes seems to be my lot in life ;-)
-
I vote to go for adoption. Help a child that already has had bad luck. But dont create more situations in the world where the possibility of disaster is relatively high.
You do know that typically a 50 year old can't adopt an infant, right? Most agencies have age limits or age gap limits. So this would mean older child adoption only. That's a very different ballgame. (Besides that OP already said this wasn't a viable option for him...)
-
I vote to go for adoption. Help a child that already has had bad luck. But dont create more situations in the world where the possibility of disaster is relatively high.
You do know that typically a 50 year old can't adopt an infant, right? Most agencies have age limits or age gap limits. So this would mean older child adoption only. That's a very different ballgame. (Besides that OP already said this wasn't a viable option for him...)
No, i didnt know that. It sounds like the adoption agencies are concerned for the very same reasons.
However, i am not suggesting the OP adopt an older child. I know that those situations are frought with difficulties.
I deleted my original response as i felt i shoudl give this more thought.
-
I vote to go for adoption. Help a child that already has had bad luck. But dont create more situations in the world where the possibility of disaster is relatively high.
You do know that typically a 50 year old can't adopt an infant, right? Most agencies have age limits or age gap limits. So this would mean older child adoption only. That's a very different ballgame. (Besides that OP already said this wasn't a viable option for him...)
No, i didnt know that. It sounds like the adoption agencies are concerned for the very same reasons.
However, i am not suggesting the OP adopt an older child. I know that those situations are frought with difficulties.
I deleted my original response as i felt i shoudl give this more thought.
Adopting an infant from foster care is possible as an older, single parent in the US. OP is not in the US however, so his requirements may be different. But even if they’re not, foster care, by its nature, is uncertain with no guarantee in adoption. Many people, especially those who have gone through infertility, as the OP has, aren’t emotionally ready to invest in a child for months or years without knowing whether they will be able to adopt. It’s a deeply personal choice that isn’t for everyone (and i say this as someone who did adopt through foster care with no regrets). The whole “if you want a child you should just adopt one” rhetoric is simplistic. I carry a strong personal belief that more people (including young, healthy couples) should adopt before they create new life, but I know better than to suggest that it’s as simple as that. The biological need to procreate is a strong force. The psychological need to nurture a small human is strong too. As a foster parent, I’ve seem these urges play out in disasterous ways and I’m quite confident that despite some complications that the OP will be able to provide a stable, loving, opportunity filled home for a child. The OP won’t be able to provide some of the things a younger couple would, sure. But he will be able to provide many things that millions of children born to young couples don’t have. It will be a trade off, and i see no reason to believe that it will result in anything other than a perfectly happy and well adjusted family.
-
I'm surprised some people are digging in their heels about age. I can relate to being worried about it being the last time I see my dad because he makes dumb decisions like driving tired. Also my dad at 62 is the same age as most of the dads at the elementary school because most of them are on their second families.
And it's not easy peasy to take care of your parents when the child is older and the parents are older. My parents were in their 50's when their parents got sick. Both my parents had to quit their jobs at the peak of their careers to take care of them. It took 2 years for my dad to find another job making less than he was making before. My mother wasn't able to find another job and became a private music teacher. My grandparents had kids at the "right" age and they still ruined their kids lives for awhile.
The most important thing I have learned from this forum is that most people do whatever they feel like with their lives (including being misguided by consumerism). People who follow the "rules" are suckas.
-
I'll add a few things that hopefully aren't duplication of what has been said:
You are contemplating bringing a child into the world even though the baseline condition for life is unbearable suffering (Jordan Peterson paraphrase). The risks and probabilities of particular types of suffering that are being contemplated on this thread are, at best, icing on the cake of the certitude of suffering. MMM doesn't tend to phrase things so harshly, so this may come out of left field for this crowd, but we all know that existence includes (and in fact IS) suffering. It's the natural cross-product of consciousness and vulnerability/mortality. Bummer.
Point two is my standard refrain as a child produced by a non-accidental, incorrect choice by my parents, and the intentional mother of child with no father. My parents' marriage was over when they conceived me, and my older sister had/had multiple significant disabilities that entirely consumed my mother and "ruined" life for many adjacent parties. My son was conceived when I was married to a woman, but she bounced during the pregnancy (week ONE, actually). When contemplating the pregnancy back then, I boiled it down to the actual decision at hand: will a given child be born or not. I was not trying to decide if having a father was better than not, or was "essential", or even if it was "fair" to a child to conceive them, knowing they would have this particular flavor of painful suffering. We were deciding if it was worth being born into the given circumstances, or not. See point one, and you'll agree that it's logically worth it to be born. I certainly feel grateful that my parents made the selfish decision to have me. I cannot come down on the side of "my life is not worth living" because of my absent father, suffering mother, crisis-ridden sister, or anything else frankly. I trust my own child to do the same. And I'm right at the crux of deciding to try for another - now to be born into a single-mom family, not two-mom family, and I trust that child would feel the same.
Is single parenting hard? Obviously. Also partnered parenting. I think money makes an incredible amount of difference. In the U.S., the median income for a single mother is about $27,000, which is not livable without mustachian prowess. As much as money doens't buy happiness, poverty definitely underlies many particular forms of suffering.
Now for something I'm actually curious about: what are you doing 20 hours a week for exercise?!?!?!
-
I had older parents (my dad was in his late 40s when I was born), and then they had my sister several years later. Both of my parents died before I was 25 and my sister was still a teenager. I still feel really resentful of people who got to "have" their parents for much longer than I did.
I'm not saying you shouldn't have a child if you want one. You might live until they are 40 or 50, as you say. Both my parents were healthy, until they weren't. I am in the middle of IVF to have a kid of my own, so I understand your feelings, truly. But from a kid standpoint of older parents, it fucking sucked. I would have loved for my dad to have been alive to walk me down the aisle, or to meet my (hypothetical) kid, or to come visit me in the first house that I bought, or to cheer me on when I moved cross country. He missed a lot.
-
I already replied earlier but if you decide not to adopt, I'd also suggest there are other ways to be a father figure and care for and influence the next generation:
- big brother/big sister organizations
- troop leader in boy/girls scouts- particularly if you live in a poor(er) area. They are desperately understaffed.
- coaching - kids' leagues always need coaching. Soccer, baseball, etc.
Being a parent is the most wonderful and also the hardest thing you can do. Being a parent, you can influence 1 life. If you were a troop leader or coach or... ?? - you could connect with many at once. Just an idea. Or do both. :)
-
Intersting story, thank you MrThatsDifferent.
I can't imagine life without being a father. It was a lot of two-stepping at 2 AM the first year, dancing helped keep me awake while I tried to get her to sleep, its not all roses and sunshine. I have a partner, so it was easier, but if my only choice was to go it alone I would (eventually). Although I was tired and hated large parts of my life; I also had those moments that I wouldn't trade for any promotion, vacation or FIRE date.
I wonder about how the child will perceive your age. I'm guessing they'll be thankful to be alive in this world, cause the alternative is to never be born. Rather then bemoan only having 30 years with you, perhaps they'll realize they're lucky to have 30 years with you. I'd rather mourn a beloved dad at 30 who was the greatest man I ever knew then be born at the regular time to parents who were indifferent. The stronger your bond, the harder the passing, its a compliment to you that people think you're child will grieve your passing.
As for the cost, if$ 100k is that big of a deal, then I'm not sure you really want a kid. Stop and reconsider if the cost is a factor or just an excuse to help you back down from an irreversible decision. Pre-MMM that would have been a lot of cash, now its just a few years of savings, its not like it would destroy my life even if I came out empty handed. Although I'd be bitter about the cash, I'd be far more bitter in 10 years when I realized that its too late and all that extra cash is just numbers in bank account.
Also, I suspect if you get a kid that you will struggle to find a partner in the future. Your dating life will be worse afterwards, you will be trading a future with a partner for a baby. Is that off the table, are you done with dating or at least willing to seriously hamper your self? I can't imagine too many people wanting to date you with a kid, at 50 they'll probably want to be done with raising a child.
-
I'm surprised some people are digging in their heels about age. I can relate to being worried about it being the last time I see my dad because he makes dumb decisions like driving tired. Also my dad at 62 is the same age as most of the dads at the elementary school because most of them are on their second families.
By most being 60+ you mean .1-1% I assume because this is vastly inaccurate statement otherwise.
https://www.cnn.com/2017/08/30/health/older-dads-us-study/index.html
"Over the study period, the portion of newborns' fathers who are 40 or older doubled from 4.1% to 8.9%. Meanwhile, the proportion of dads who were 50 or older rose from [0.5%] to nearly [1%]."
And it's not easy peasy to take care of your parents when the child is older and the parents are older. My parents were in their 50's when their parents got sick. Both my parents had to quit their jobs at the peak of their careers to take care of them. It took 2 years for my dad to find another job making less than he was making before. My mother wasn't able to find another job and became a private music teacher. My grandparents had kids at the "right" age and they still ruined their kids lives for awhile.
True, having to take care of your parents can ruin your life at any stage. However, it depends on how you prepared. A 50+ year old child will have a world more experience, patience, and wisdom in addition to a large cash cushion (or should) that would permit them to take that lower paid job. A 20 year old dropping out of college or taking a less optimal job (MBA working at McDonalds) could ruin their career permanently.
The most important thing I have learned from this forum is that most people do whatever they feel like with their lives (including being misguided by consumerism). People who follow the "rules" are suckas.
Except that doesn't fly when it impacts the health and happiness of another human. Doesn't matter if whacking people upside the head with a bat is what makes me happy because it impacts their happinesss, those "suckas rules" matter. You can't make a utilitarian argument in favor of this.
I had older parents (my dad was in his late 40s when I was born), and then they had my sister several years later. Both of my parents died before I was 25 and my sister was still a teenager. I still feel really resentful of people who got to "have" their parents for much longer than I did.
I'm not saying you shouldn't have a child if you want one. You might live until they are 40 or 50, as you say. Both my parents were healthy, until they weren't. I am in the middle of IVF to have a kid of my own, so I understand your feelings, truly. But from a kid standpoint of older parents, it fucking sucked. I would have loved for my dad to have been alive to walk me down the aisle, or to meet my (hypothetical) kid, or to come visit me in the first house that I bought, or to cheer me on when I moved cross country. He missed a lot.
A lot of the people speaking out in favor of this did not have older parents, while many of those (myself included) who did have older parents (not even as old as being proposed here) are advising against this while having our concerns casually dismissed by those who haven't personally experienced it.
-
I think 50 is too old. You should want to adopt, help , foster, mentor and the fact that you think those are out of the question is alarming. Some of your other posts about aging go along with the concerns other people are voicing here.
-
I think 50 is too old. You should want to adopt, help , foster, mentor and the fact that you think those are out of the question is alarming. Some of your other posts about aging go along with the concerns other people are voicing here.
The OP has told us NOTHING about whether they have interest in helping or mentoring children; nor whether they want to foster. The main goal of fostering (at least in the US) is supposed to be reunification with bio-family, even if you hope to foster-to adopt. Lots of people just can't do that. Or maybe OP wants to foster but would also like a child of their own.
There are lots of issues with adoption that may or may not make it feasible; and many people have ethical issues with adoption that even if they are candidates for agencies it would not work for them.
-
I think 50 is too old. You should want to adopt, help , foster, mentor and the fact that you think those are out of the question is alarming. Some of your other posts about aging go along with the concerns other people are voicing here.
The OP has told us NOTHING about whether they have interest in helping or mentoring children; nor whether they want to foster. The main goal of fostering (at least in the US) is supposed to be reunification with bio-family, even if you hope to foster-to adopt. Lots of people just can't do that. Or maybe OP wants to foster but would also like a child of their own.
There are lots of issues with adoption that may or may not make it feasible; and many people have ethical issues with adoption that even if they are candidates for agencies it would not work for them.
fair enough but the OP in a different thread is talking about how he is having mental/memory decline
-
I think 50 is too old. You should want to adopt, help , foster, mentor and the fact that you think those are out of the question is alarming. Some of your other posts about aging go along with the concerns other people are voicing here.
The OP has told us NOTHING about whether they have interest in helping or mentoring children; nor whether they want to foster. The main goal of fostering (at least in the US) is supposed to be reunification with bio-family, even if you hope to foster-to adopt. Lots of people just can't do that. Or maybe OP wants to foster but would also like a child of their own.
There are lots of issues with adoption that may or may not make it feasible; and many people have ethical issues with adoption that even if they are candidates for agencies it would not work for them.
fair enough but the OP in a different thread is talking about how he is having mental/memory decline
I wouldn't recommend him adopt then, either.
-
I'm not going to read all the arguing here. You can come up with enough negativity in your own brain. I know. I'm in a similar position. And my conclusion was that I need to at least try. I dipped a toe into the baby etc thread and it is full of warmth and support, even if you're at the thinking about trying to conceive point.
-
I'm surprised some people are digging in their heels about age. I can relate to being worried about it being the last time I see my dad because he makes dumb decisions like driving tired. Also my dad at 62 is the same age as most of the dads at the elementary school because most of them are on their second families.
And it's not easy peasy to take care of your parents when the child is older and the parents are older. My parents were in their 50's when their parents got sick. Both my parents had to quit their jobs at the peak of their careers to take care of them. It took 2 years for my dad to find another job making less than he was making before. My mother wasn't able to find another job and became a private music teacher. My grandparents had kids at the "right" age and they still ruined their kids lives for awhile.
The most important thing I have learned from this forum is that most people do whatever they feel like with their lives (including being misguided by consumerism). People who follow the "rules" are suckas.
This just blows my mind.
-
fair enough but the OP in a different thread is talking about how he is having mental/memory decline
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/ask-a-mustachian/how-do-people-age/msg2231434/#msg2231434
I’ve found as I get older I’m losing my eyesight, stamina and memory. The memory one is the worst. I can’t remember names, second guess words I’m spelling and sometimes will lose track of thoughts when talking. It feels like Flowers for Algernon. So bizarre. I’m hoping it’s not early signs of dementia or Alzheimer’s. I’ve talked to older people who say, we’ll, that’s just getting older. Freaky.
This pretty much admits the fear so many want to casually dismiss.
-
fair enough but the OP in a different thread is talking about how he is having mental/memory decline
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/ask-a-mustachian/how-do-people-age/msg2231434/#msg2231434
I’ve found as I get older I’m losing my eyesight, stamina and memory. The memory one is the worst. I can’t remember names, second guess words I’m spelling and sometimes will lose track of thoughts when talking. It feels like Flowers for Algernon. So bizarre. I’m hoping it’s not early signs of dementia or Alzheimer’s. I’ve talked to older people who say, we’ll, that’s just getting older. Freaky.
This pretty much admits the fear so many want to casually dismiss.
Yeah, aging sucks.
-
I'm surprised some people are digging in their heels about age. I can relate to being worried about it being the last time I see my dad because he makes dumb decisions like driving tired. Also my dad at 62 is the same age as most of the dads at the elementary school because most of them are on their second families.
By most being 60+ you mean .1-1% I assume because this is vastly inaccurate statement otherwise.
https://www.cnn.com/2017/08/30/health/older-dads-us-study/index.html
"Over the study period, the portion of newborns' fathers who are 40 or older doubled from 4.1% to 8.9%. Meanwhile, the proportion of dads who were 50 or older rose from [0.5%] to nearly [1%]."
Really, I'm serious. It's the only school like it in the region so maybe they are just all congregated there. My dad is on the PTA and helps to run the school so I trust he knows the percentages. I didn't mean same age to literally mean they are all exactly 62 though. I meant in the range of older dad.
Quote from: mozar on Today at 09:44:02 AM
And it's not easy peasy to take care of your parents when the child is older and the parents are older. My parents were in their 50's when their parents got sick. Both my parents had to quit their jobs at the peak of their careers to take care of them. It took 2 years for my dad to find another job making less than he was making before. My mother wasn't able to find another job and became a private music teacher. My grandparents had kids at the "right" age and they still ruined their kids lives for awhile.
True, having to take care of your parents can ruin your life at any stage. However, it depends on how you prepared. A 50+ year old child will have a world more experience, patience, and wisdom in addition to a large cash cushion (or should) that would permit them to take that lower paid job. A 20 year old dropping out of college or taking a less optimal job (MBA working at McDonalds) could ruin their career permanently.
I totally disagree. A 20 year old can go back to college and finish and will have plenty of years to recover. A 55 year old (and I'm not talking about the special community of mustachians where people have been saving significant amount) only has 10 years until typical retirement. My dad isn't going to recover from that setback. The only saving grace is that with the new job he will get a pension of $1300 a month on top of social security. He's got no patience or wisdom or cash, that's for sure.
Quote from: mozar on Today at 09:44:02 AM
The most important thing I have learned from this forum is that most people do whatever they feel like with their lives (including being misguided by consumerism). People who follow the "rules" are suckas.
Except that doesn't fly when it impacts the health and happiness of another human. Doesn't matter if whacking people upside the head with a bat is what makes me happy because it impacts their happinesss, those "suckas rules" matter. You can't make a utilitarian argument in favor of this.
Nobody is advocating for illegal activity here. Physical assault is a red herring.*
*Quotes aren't working for me so I'm bolding.
-
Now for something I'm actually curious about: what are you doing 20 hours a week for exercise?!?!?!
M-F, I do 30-40m of HIIT workouts, plus 1-1.5 hours of walking to and from work. Sometimes ride the bike as well. Also, have a hobby sport I have lessons for 1.5 hrs during the week. All of this, except the walk home is before work.
On the weekends, I do my workouts, bike rides and play my hobby sport for at least 5-7 hours.
-
fair enough but the OP in a different thread is talking about how he is having mental/memory decline
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/ask-a-mustachian/how-do-people-age/msg2231434/#msg2231434
I’ve found as I get older I’m losing my eyesight, stamina and memory. The memory one is the worst. I can’t remember names, second guess words I’m spelling and sometimes will lose track of thoughts when talking. It feels like Flowers for Algernon. So bizarre. I’m hoping it’s not early signs of dementia or Alzheimer’s. I’ve talked to older people who say, we’ll, that’s just getting older. Freaky.
This pretty much admits the fear so many want to casually dismiss.
Yeah, aging sucks.
Indeed it does but I still run a multi-million dollar business with an office of over 20. Eyesight has definitely gotten worse, but it’ll really just mean bifocals at most. Memory has dipped some, there’s no doubt about that. And I have those fears as a person getting older, what does this mean, as I’ve never experienced it before. I could just be panicking about something. I certainly don’t think I can’t raise a kid and I’m pretty sure I’d have at least 20 years before anything noticeable happened.
Although the idea of helping my kid with the math homework scares me. But I doubt I’d be alone in that. Lol
I appreciate the sleuthing to prove that I’m too weak or will be soon to be a father and be there for my kid. Again, concerns about age are legitimate or I wouldn’t be raising them. It’s not deterring me as much as I thought it would. It is making me think I should move up my timetable and try to make this happen sooner, mostly because I’d love to do this yesterday, not tomorrow. However, I’m going to be sensible and keep working through this. You all have given me so much to think about, in a good way.
-
Intersting story, thank you MrThatsDifferent.
I can't imagine life without being a father. It was a lot of two-stepping at 2 AM the first year, dancing helped keep me awake while I tried to get her to sleep, its not all roses and sunshine. I have a partner, so it was easier, but if my only choice was to go it alone I would (eventually). Although I was tired and hated large parts of my life; I also had those moments that I wouldn't trade for any promotion, vacation or FIRE date.
I wonder about how the child will perceive your age. I'm guessing they'll be thankful to be alive in this world, cause the alternative is to never be born. Rather then bemoan only having 30 years with you, perhaps they'll realize they're lucky to have 30 years with you. I'd rather mourn a beloved dad at 30 who was the greatest man I ever knew then be born at the regular time to parents who were indifferent. The stronger your bond, the harder the passing, its a compliment to you that people think you're child will grieve your passing.
As for the cost, if$ 100k is that big of a deal, then I'm not sure you really want a kid. Stop and reconsider if the cost is a factor or just an excuse to help you back down from an irreversible decision. Pre-MMM that would have been a lot of cash, now its just a few years of savings, its not like it would destroy my life even if I came out empty handed. Although I'd be bitter about the cash, I'd be far more bitter in 10 years when I realized that its too late and all that extra cash is just numbers in bank account.
Also, I suspect if you get a kid that you will struggle to find a partner in the future. Your dating life will be worse afterwards, you will be trading a future with a partner for a baby. Is that off the table, are you done with dating or at least willing to seriously hamper your self? I can't imagine too many people wanting to date you with a kid, at 50 they'll probably want to be done with raising a child.
Thanks for this. Yes, this discussion has helped me work out that $100k isn’t that big of a deal. Not with my current salary and how things are set up. What I’m more worried about, if I’m honest, is paying that and not having a child. I think then I’d be doubly crushed, but at least I can then say, we’ll, I have done everything and truly, this was not the path for me. The place I’ve researched though says if you’re not successful, for a small fee, they will find another surrogate to assist. It’s not a guarantee but does sound like they work hard to help you achieve your dream.
-
I'm surprised some people are digging in their heels about age. I can relate to being worried about it being the last time I see my dad because he makes dumb decisions like driving tired. Also my dad at 62 is the same age as most of the dads at the elementary school because most of them are on their second families.
By most being 60+ you mean .1-1% I assume because this is vastly inaccurate statement otherwise.
https://www.cnn.com/2017/08/30/health/older-dads-us-study/index.html
"Over the study period, the portion of newborns' fathers who are 40 or older doubled from 4.1% to 8.9%. Meanwhile, the proportion of dads who were 50 or older rose from [0.5%] to nearly [1%]."
And it's not easy peasy to take care of your parents when the child is older and the parents are older. My parents were in their 50's when their parents got sick. Both my parents had to quit their jobs at the peak of their careers to take care of them. It took 2 years for my dad to find another job making less than he was making before. My mother wasn't able to find another job and became a private music teacher. My grandparents had kids at the "right" age and they still ruined their kids lives for awhile.
True, having to take care of your parents can ruin your life at any stage. However, it depends on how you prepared. A 50+ year old child will have a world more experience, patience, and wisdom in addition to a large cash cushion (or should) that would permit them to take that lower paid job. A 20 year old dropping out of college or taking a less optimal job (MBA working at McDonalds) could ruin their career permanently.
The most important thing I have learned from this forum is that most people do whatever they feel like with their lives (including being misguided by consumerism). People who follow the "rules" are suckas.
Except that doesn't fly when it impacts the health and happiness of another human. Doesn't matter if whacking people upside the head with a bat is what makes me happy because it impacts their happinesss, those "suckas rules" matter. You can't make a utilitarian argument in favor of this.
I had older parents (my dad was in his late 40s when I was born), and then they had my sister several years later. Both of my parents died before I was 25 and my sister was still a teenager. I still feel really resentful of people who got to "have" their parents for much longer than I did.
I'm not saying you shouldn't have a child if you want one. You might live until they are 40 or 50, as you say. Both my parents were healthy, until they weren't. I am in the middle of IVF to have a kid of my own, so I understand your feelings, truly. But from a kid standpoint of older parents, it fucking sucked. I would have loved for my dad to have been alive to walk me down the aisle, or to meet my (hypothetical) kid, or to come visit me in the first house that I bought, or to cheer me on when I moved cross country. He missed a lot.
A lot of the people speaking out in favor of this did not have older parents, while many of those (myself included) who did have older parents (not even as old as being proposed here) are advising against this while having our concerns casually dismissed by those who haven't personally experienced it.
Dude, I thank you for contributing and appreciate what you’ve shared. It has definitely made me think more about this and work through my own concerns regarding age. I’m sorry that your experience with your parents have caused you so much resentment. I’m on the other side. I had very young parents and take issue with their choices. But, I’ve also learned to forgive them and realize, their job was to get me to 18 alive, and from there it was on me. Parents aren’t perfect and no one has a crystal ball. No one is guaranteed tomorrow, but that doesn’t mean we can’t or shouldn’t still try to have the family or life we want.
I’m not ignoring you. But also, I’m not going to base my decisions solely on the negative experience of one or a couple internet strangers. I hope you understand that. I’ve heard you though. I’ve listened and I understand what you’re trying to impart. Know that if I go through with this and a miracle happens and I get to be a dad, I will be the most conscious, loving dad that has ever been. For as long as we have each other. That’s the best anyone can really do, and how different would the world be if more people had that level of conviction and passion towards their kids?
-
Someone mentioned my dating life and how no one will want to be with a 50 year old with a kid. Umm, ok. Look, I can’t argue with that as I have no idea. If it’s just me and the kid until the kid goes to college and my dating life resumes at 68 or whatever, I’m quite fine with that. I know several men who have met partners and married in the late 60s. Apparently people fall in love at almost any age. Hell, people in prison have people who fall in love with them. Quite frankly, I’m ok dedicating my life to the kid. I’ve had all this time for me and have done so many incredible things. I have friends and family that love me dearly. Of all the concerns about this, my dating life with a kid, is the least important.
-
Now for something I'm actually curious about: what are you doing 20 hours a week for exercise?!?!?!
M-F, I do 30-40m of HIIT workouts, plus 1-1.5 hours of walking to and from work. Sometimes ride the bike as well. Also, have a hobby sport I have lessons for 1.5 hrs during the week. All of this, except the walk home is before work.
On the weekends, I do my workouts, bike rides and play my hobby sport for at least 5-7 hours.
If you do have a kid, expect that 20 hr/wk to drop to about 5-7 hr/wk.
-
I'm about your age with no kids, no pets, and I definitely wouldn't want to be raising a kid, especially on my own. I'm not even up for the additional hassles of having a pet. It might sound like a nice plan thinking about only the positive things. Living it is another matter. And some things are not so easy to walk away from. So personally, I would take the 100 Grand, and have fun doing whatever, although I wouldn't spend it all traveling the world, maybe some of it.
-
I was fully on board the "it's no more selfish than having a kid ever, so if OP is called that way, he should do it" train, until the post about his worries about Alzheimer's or similar issues, based on more than just random fear, but actual perceptions.
OP, please, please, please let the first stop in this potential journey be a thorough examination in which you discuss the issues you've had and absolutely rule them out. If you ignore possible warning signs of an illness that can crush you future child both emotionally and financially, all while s/he is still a minor, that does kind of make you an selfish asshole. Make sure you are okay (or as okay as modern medicine can guarantee, then go forth and multiply. I wish you the best of luck on both fronts.
-
Oh, I wouldn't call "needing bifocals" as "losing my eyesight". That's normal when you get up in your 40's or 50's. And I see tons of spelling mistakes on this forum, and I doubt all these people have dementia. So I wouldn't factor that in on your decision.
-
Now for something I'm actually curious about: what are you doing 20 hours a week for exercise?!?!?!
M-F, I do 30-40m of HIIT workouts, plus 1-1.5 hours of walking to and from work. Sometimes ride the bike as well. Also, have a hobby sport I have lessons for 1.5 hrs during the week. All of this, except the walk home is before work.
On the weekends, I do my workouts, bike rides and play my hobby sport for at least 5-7 hours.
If you do have a kid, expect that 20 hr/wk to drop to about 5-7 hr/wk.
Yeah, it will definitely change. Again, I’ll also have help from day 1 with family and then with childcare, so there will be time for me, but 5-7 hours per week is still more than enough to stay in good shape.
-
I was fully on board the "it's no more selfish than having a kid ever, so if OP is called that way, he should do it" train, until the post about his worries about Alzheimer's or similar issues, based on more than just random fear, but actual perceptions.
OP, please, please, please let the first stop in this potential journey be a thorough examination in which you discuss the issues you've had and absolutely rule them out. If you ignore possible warning signs of an illness that can crush you future child both emotionally and financially, all while s/he is still a minor, that does kind of make you an selfish asshole. Make sure you are okay (or as okay as modern medicine can guarantee, then go forth and multiply. I wish you the best of luck on both fronts.
Absolutely will make sure I’m in good shape and will make sure that these little changes are part of normal life and not warning signs.
-
Oh, I wouldn't call "needing bifocals" as "losing my eyesight". That's normal when you get up in your 40's or 50's. And I see tons of spelling mistakes on this forum, and I doubt all these people have dementia. So I wouldn't factor that in on your decision.
Thanks. Yes, there’s a paranoia about getting older as we all go through it. My parents are still quite healthy and active, with the regular older person complaints and I’m in a lot better shape than either of them were at my age.
-
I always wanted to have kids and I have two of them. I love spending all my time with them but I know my limitations and I know it would be extremely difficult to do it on my own, even if I was FIRE.
I think you should be the fun uncle and travel the world.
-
Now for something I'm actually curious about: what are you doing 20 hours a week for exercise?!?!?!
M-F, I do 30-40m of HIIT workouts, plus 1-1.5 hours of walking to and from work. Sometimes ride the bike as well. Also, have a hobby sport I have lessons for 1.5 hrs during the week. All of this, except the walk home is before work.
On the weekends, I do my workouts, bike rides and play my hobby sport for at least 5-7 hours.
I guess this is obvious, but all this is going to go by the wayside when you're a single dad. I exercise during lunch breaks at work (gym is in my building) and walk to and from work but with a husband who works weekends other exercise is very difficult. You can't leave the kid by him/herself while you go run in the park.
-
MTD - If you put the effort in to parenting that you have fighting for it (that we have seen) and it's just one child, I think you'll be OK either way. Having a child is not some great salvation from general life problems but one child does not overwhelm a single parent that can do it. I really don't have a definitive instruction to your conundrum because you are the definition of a grey area. There is no clear answer to your question, even if you ran a simulation a million times and analyzed the data and had a conclusion from that. Even then I would not rule out either avenue.
-
We each have our own experiences to think through and guide us in our decisions. My experiences come down firmly on the "no child" side. There are several reasons, all of which have been (I think) only marginally mentioned...
My uncle had three kids, then a break of 15 years, then two more. One Christmas he was talking about being an older father. He said it was a mistake. As near as I remember it (it really stuck with me) "The human body is made to be able to keep up with young kids when you are in your 20s and 30s. If you have kids later, you have difficulty because you can't go for possibly days with little or no sleep. You don't have as much stamina for chasing kids around. You want to take it easy, and they are revved up with childhood energy, and can't. And it's bad for them because you have more and better stuff. When we had the first three, all our furniture was hand-me-downs, and it didn't matter if something was scratched or broken. Now we have good stuff and we care if it is wrecked." This is a man who was always the centre of his community, and the most vigorous person I have known for his age.
My best friend had a daughter at 42. Her boyfriend left her as soon as he knew she was pregnant, so she raised her daughter as a single mother. She died the day she was 60. She isn't the only person I know who is in our age bracket who has died recently in their 60s. It happens more frequently than I expected. To many people who are apparently as fit and well as those who aren't. Although many people do last well into their 70s, I suspect that it is wishful thinking for you to expect to last well into your 80s or 90s - no country has those life expectancies. My friend really wanted her daughter, and I was amazed at the life changes she made to be able to look after her. I think you may be significantly underestimating the differences that having a child will make to your life, and the difficulties there are in being a single parent.
I also had an acquaintance who decided to have children even though she would be a single mum. She said that no-one was against it. I really got stuck into her about that (especially as she had been admitted to mental health institutions several times), and certainly take umbrage at your suggestion that no-one is against single mothers by choice. I am still quite opposed to it and think that IVF for single women shouldn't exist. However, it does. My problems with single parents by choice are mainly because it is much more difficult for a child to end up with no parents, if it initially has two.
I also wonder what problems you will find with being a single father. I suspect that, even if your child is a boy, there will be some much more challenging times than there would be for a single mother, especially with the way men with children are looked at strangely, when women aren't. One of the men on the forum told a story of having his daughter taken from him when he crossed a border, and it was her screams that made the border people start to believe his story (if I'm correct, he had sole custody). Men also tend to get preference in all sorts of things - jobs... If you are a single parent, will you change to being treated like a woman?
Lastly, your plans include living in a LCOL country. I suspect this means a third world country. This really raises my concerns. Children die in third world countries because there are diseases which are not prevalent in developed countries. Natural disasters tend to have more impact on the population of an area than a similar one in a developed country. Two small children in my family (with their mother) lived in a refugee shelter for several months after one such disaster in a third world country. Also, how can you have a close family environment for your child if you both live in another country?
-
I always wanted to have kids and I have two of them. I love spending all my time with them but I know my limitations and I know it would be extremely difficult to do it on my own, even if I was FIRE.
I think you should be the fun uncle and travel the world.
Thanks. I want one, not two, which would be exhausting. I’ll have help along the way.
If none of it works out, funcle is what I’ll be (I’m already great at it and love it), and will travel always, with a kid or on my own.
-
MTD - If you put the effort in to parenting that you have fighting for it (that we have seen) and it's just one child, I think you'll be OK either way. Having a child is not some great salvation from general life problems but one child does not overwhelm a single parent that can do it. I really don't have a definitive instruction to your conundrum because you are the definition of a grey area. There is no clear answer to your question, even if you ran a simulation a million times and analyzed the data and had a conclusion from that. Even then I would not rule out either avenue.
Thanks for that. Yes, that is my conundrum. If I didn’t have my job, money and what I’ve learned from MMM, this would be beyond my reach. But it’s right there at being possible, doable and yet not infallible, but what is when it comes to kids and parenting?
-
We each have our own experiences to think through and guide us in our decisions. My experiences come down firmly on the "no child" side. There are several reasons, all of which have been (I think) only marginally mentioned...
My uncle had three kids, then a break of 15 years, then two more. One Christmas he was talking about being an older father. He said it was a mistake. As near as I remember it (it really stuck with me) "The human body is made to be able to keep up with young kids when you are in your 20s and 30s. If you have kids later, you have difficulty because you can't go for possibly days with little or no sleep. You don't have as much stamina for chasing kids around. You want to take it easy, and they are revved up with childhood energy, and can't. And it's bad for them because you have more and better stuff. When we had the first three, all our furniture was hand-me-downs, and it didn't matter if something was scratched or broken. Now we have good stuff and we care if it is wrecked." This is a man who was always the centre of his community, and the most vigorous person I have known for his age.
My best friend had a daughter at 42. Her boyfriend left her as soon as he knew she was pregnant, so she raised her daughter as a single mother. She died the day she was 60. She isn't the only person I know who is in our age bracket who has died recently in their 60s. It happens more frequently than I expected. To many people who are apparently as fit and well as those who aren't. Although many people do last well into their 70s, I suspect that it is wishful thinking for you to expect to last well into your 80s or 90s - no country has those life expectancies. My friend really wanted her daughter, and I was amazed at the life changes she made to be able to look after her. I think you may be significantly underestimating the differences that having a child will make to your life, and the difficulties there are in being a single parent.
I also had an acquaintance who decided to have children even though she would be a single mum. She said that no-one was against it. I really got stuck into her about that (especially as she had been admitted to mental health institutions several times), and certainly take umbrage at your suggestion that no-one is against single mothers by choice. I am still quite opposed to it and think that IVF for single women shouldn't exist. However, it does. My problems with single parents by choice are mainly because it is much more difficult for a child to end up with no parents, if it initially has two.
I also wonder what problems you will find with being a single father. I suspect that, even if your child is a boy, there will be some much more challenging times than there would be for a single mother, especially with the way men with children are looked at strangely, when women aren't. One of the men on the forum told a story of having his daughter taken from him when he crossed a border, and it was her screams that made the border people start to believe his story (if I'm correct, he had sole custody). Men also tend to get preference in all sorts of things - jobs... If you are a single parent, will you change to being treated like a woman?
Lastly, your plans include living in a LCOL country. I suspect this means a third world country. This really raises my concerns. Children die in third world countries because there are diseases which are not prevalent in developed countries. Natural disasters tend to have more impact on the population of an area than a similar one in a developed country. Two small children in my family (with their mother) lived in a refugee shelter for several months after one such disaster in a third world country. Also, how can you have a close family environment for your child if you both live in another country?
Ok, lots to unpack here and don’t get me wrong, your stories scare the crap out of me. They are indeed possible. I guess, anything is possible. You could also have someone tell traumatic stories of parents in their 20s and 30s who have regretted children, been abandoned, died early, etc. Those stories don’t deter those people. No one gets guarantees but we can’t stop living.
Your uncle: I can’t imagine anything worse than regretting children, and having messed up furniture as one of the reasons. Yes, the energy thing will be an issue. I know that. So I’ll have to have an au pair or nanny or manny or whoever to help me out. Takes a village and all. I’ll also try to keep the kid in sports and other activities to give outlets for that energy. That will give me rest and recharge time to play. Any different than parents who work 40-60 hours and then have to play with the kids, but give them an iPad instead?
Your friend who passed at 60: how horrible, sorry to hear. Can’t do much about death. It could happen tomorrow or 50 years from now. It will most likely happen at some point within that timeframe. No one knows their number, ever. I grew up with 2 kids who lost their dad when they were 1. Again, no one stops having kids cause the could die. I’ve got nothing to go on but my own parents, both in their late 60s and still active. Both have lead riskier lives than I have (both smokers or ex smokers). Grandmother in her mid 90s (ex smoker).
Single mom through IVF: well, you’re entitled to your opinion about what women should be able to do with their bodies and plan their families, but I’ll disagree. Whether they chose to be a single mom or it happened to them by circumstance, it happens, all the time and they survive and the kids survive. Easy? No. We’ve had 2 presidents (Clinton and Obama) raised by single moms. Half of marriages end in divorce, as soon as they do, all the one that involve children become single parent households until a new partner is found. You’re condemning s large portion of people.
Single father problems: This one I think about a lot, because it’s definitely real. It, btw, has nothing to do with age. There are lots of single fathers out there and yes, we’ll need to navigate all of that. I was just at the airport and watched this father deal with the issue of taking his daughter to the bathroom—he didn’t want to let her go to the ladies alone but when he took her into the men’s, there were too many trying to get to the urinals. It was awkward. I’m sure they worked something out. Because, that’s what you do. Humans figure out a way. I will need to be prepared for the, is this your child, where is the mother, has she granted permission for travel type discussions. And fair enough. Some men steal and do awful things to children. I will be prepared for this because I will have to be.
LCOL: Well, I’m thinking Buenos Aires, Panama, Portugal, Budapest, Spain, France, Thailand, Malaysia or Malta. The places generally listed as great, affordable places for retirees. They might be 3rd world to you, I think we’ll be ok. My plan is to be retired after 4-6 years. We’ll either fly to family for extended times or fly them to us.
-
Now for something I'm actually curious about: what are you doing 20 hours a week for exercise?!?!?!
M-F, I do 30-40m of HIIT workouts, plus 1-1.5 hours of walking to and from work. Sometimes ride the bike as well. Also, have a hobby sport I have lessons for 1.5 hrs during the week. All of this, except the walk home is before work.
On the weekends, I do my workouts, bike rides and play my hobby sport for at least 5-7 hours.
If you do have a kid, expect that 20 hr/wk to drop to about 5-7 hr/wk.
Ok, so if you have a kid like mine, who cries for six months straight unless being walked, you’re plenty fit. Parenthood (baby time at least) will kill your short-term memory anyway. In fact, we all lose cognitive strength starting in the 30s, so no surprise you’ve noticed. Spell-check/autocorrect is killing all our spelling instincts. It sounds like your plan to be thoughtful about whatever health issues or risks you have. As far as the memory decline, which is expected, and not separate from the age question, you may want to ask some friends/relatives if they have noticed a change. My mother for example frets every time she can’t find a word in the moment, and I can honestly tell her, she is the same as ever. Nothing like, e.g., her brother, whose memory/reasoning faltered noticably, 10 years before he fully succumbed to dementia.
-
Dude...
You asking for advice here is like flipping a coin just to see if you are relieved or disappointed by the result.
You know what you want to do. You really don't need us to tell you anything.
Is having a kid at your age, alone, a rational idea?
Uh...no. Obviously not.
However, having a child at any age, under any circumstance is not a rational idea.
People don't have children rationally, for rational reasons, under rational circumstances, and with rational timing.
Having kids isn't rational, it's an instinct, and either the instinct is strong enough to overcome reason, or it isn't.
There isn't a damn rational reason under the sun for you to have a biological child other than, well, you fucking want one and may not feel satisfied with your life unless you have one.
Only you can know if you will be able to feel fulfilled without a child of your own. Don't feel bad about it either, it's a damn instinct, and you are absolutely right, you will be a better dad than many out there. There is no rational reason why you shouldn't be a dad while other shit dads make babies every day. Granted, that would be an insane reason to have a baby if you didn't want one.
See what I mean?
Logic doesn't matter.
You either want it or you don't. There's nothing inherently selfless or selfish about having a child if you have the basic capacity to provide for it and love it, it's just what you feel you need to do or it isn't. Don't get bogged down in any other questions because none of them actually matter, even though they seem that they do.
Having kids is brutal, it's exhausting, it's expensive, and it's absolutely abysmally terrible for your mental health according to all existing metrics out there. Still, it's also considered one of the most satisfying things that can give you the greatest sense of purpose in life.
You see, it's not a lifestyle choice, it's a calling.
So. Is this something you need or not?
Malkynn cuts to the chase as usual.
-
Now for something I'm actually curious about: what are you doing 20 hours a week for exercise?!?!?!
M-F, I do 30-40m of HIIT workouts, plus 1-1.5 hours of walking to and from work. Sometimes ride the bike as well. Also, have a hobby sport I have lessons for 1.5 hrs during the week. All of this, except the walk home is before work.
On the weekends, I do my workouts, bike rides and play my hobby sport for at least 5-7 hours.
If you do have a kid, expect that 20 hr/wk to drop to about 5-7 hr/wk.
Ok, so if you have a kid like mine, who cries for six months straight unless being walked, you’re plenty fit. Parenthood (baby time at least) will kill your short-term memory anyway. In fact, we all lose cognitive strength starting in the 30s, so no surprise you’ve noticed. Spell-check/autocorrect is killing all our spelling instincts. It sounds like your plan to be thoughtful about whatever health issues or risks you have. As far as the memory decline, which is expected, and not separate from the age question, you may want to ask some friends/relatives if they have noticed a change. My mother for example frets every time she can’t find a word in the moment, and I can honestly tell her, she is the same as ever. Nothing like, e.g., her brother, whose memory/reasoning faltered noticably, 10 years before he fully succumbed to dementia.
Thanks, this is what most tell me and no, no one has noticed anything different. It’s tiny things that really only I notice but they seem big cause you think, hey, I never had problems spelling initiative before!?! (That was today’s one and yeah, spell check might be the culprit). Lol
-
Dude...
You asking for advice here is like flipping a coin just to see if you are relieved or disappointed by the result.
You know what you want to do. You really don't need us to tell you anything.
Is having a kid at your age, alone, a rational idea?
Uh...no. Obviously not.
However, having a child at any age, under any circumstance is not a rational idea.
People don't have children rationally, for rational reasons, under rational circumstances, and with rational timing.
Having kids isn't rational, it's an instinct, and either the instinct is strong enough to overcome reason, or it isn't.
There isn't a damn rational reason under the sun for you to have a biological child other than, well, you fucking want one and may not feel satisfied with your life unless you have one.
Only you can know if you will be able to feel fulfilled without a child of your own. Don't feel bad about it either, it's a damn instinct, and you are absolutely right, you will be a better dad than many out there. There is no rational reason why you shouldn't be a dad while other shit dads make babies every day. Granted, that would be an insane reason to have a baby if you didn't want one.
See what I mean?
Logic doesn't matter.
You either want it or you don't. There's nothing inherently selfless or selfish about having a child if you have the basic capacity to provide for it and love it, it's just what you feel you need to do or it isn't. Don't get bogged down in any other questions because none of them actually matter, even though they seem that they do.
Having kids is brutal, it's exhausting, it's expensive, and it's absolutely abysmally terrible for your mental health according to all existing metrics out there. Still, it's also considered one of the most satisfying things that can give you the greatest sense of purpose in life.
You see, it's not a lifestyle choice, it's a calling.
So. Is this something you need or not?
Thank you for this. I posted this as a means to make it real to think through and hear from this group, that have been so good at helping others. It hasn’t let me down. I had almost given up on this idea when the marriage ended, but then I did an exercise around my goals and what I really want and I had to include having a kid. Then I had to think, how now would that be possible and is it too late?
I never wanted to be an old dad. Never. But I want to be a dad and one thing I’ve discovered, I’m not quite as old as I thought. Meaning, sure there are changes, but in many ways I still feel 30. I don’t think I think old, just have some experience. I’ve gone on some recent vacations where I’ve been up at the crack of dawn, walking for hours, learning and exploring and then getting to bed late. When I work, I’m exhausted but when I want the energy for things I enjoy, it’s there. So yeah, I’d love to see my kid into the kid’s 70s and meet the great grands, that won’t be possible. But I can still have years of being s loving dad. And that excites me as it always has. I’ve always wanted to be a dad, always.
And the desire might not be rational but I sure as hell will approach everything I do as rationally as possible. But I’ll also just be me and I have great instincts with kids. And the very idea fills me with such joy. I’m fine with the sleepless nights and all the rites of passage for parenthood.
-
I say go for it - but hurry up! It can take a good couple of years at least for surrogacy so you need to start making real steps now or it WILL be too late.
I, for some reason, have many female friends who have decided to have children in their late forties - and none of them regret it. At least 3 of my close friends had theirs at 48-49 with partners 10 years older than them. None of them are single parents but I am not sure that matters a lot. The maturity, financial security and ability to work part time if you are FI is a big bonus. One friend’s husband K is in his 70s and has had a wonderful time with his 2 boys - (his kids are now 13 and 15) - he and my husband did the elementary school pick up every day and used to sit in what they called “codgers corner” waiting for the kids to come out of school and then walked home with them - they said it was very eye opening listening to the younger mothers gossip :)
K still gets short term contracts for govt who need his expertise so keeps up to date and is also involved in local politics - he also has a blog he posts in 1-3 per DAY :) So he is no old fogey.
I say this even though my mother had me at 40 then died when I was 5 at 45 - I spent part of my childhood with an unreliable father, in an orphanage for 3 years and then with an abusive step-mother but my mother was wonderful and I still have strong memories of her (I am now 52) and I am so glad she had me against all the advice of the time.
I am also going to disagree with the children are hard and require sacrifice and extreme emotional energy. I think it depends on who you are. I had mine at 35 and 37 which was considered old at the time and my dh is 10 years older than me. I went back to work when my first child, a son, was 11 weeks old and dh was the caregiver until he was 6 months old - he was 45 at the time and it was fine. You are right that a nanny or au pair can help relieve the pressure if you need it (I had mine in childcare rather than Nannies but would have had an au pair as well as childcare if I had been a single mother - a work colleague does that).
I have worked fulltime ever since - my dh is now in his 60s and my kids are 15 and 16. My daughter at 15 is going through a bit of a rough teenage patch but that is the first time I have felt an emotional toll. My son has moderate learning difficulties but we just got some tutors, hassled the school to get what he needs and move on - I don’t spend a lot of time on introspection.
I also host international students - I have two girls - both 15 at the moment.
We basically just get on with it.
I think if you are truly a loving parent any time you spend with them is good time. I am frankly appalled by the commenters above who resent “having to care for their parents in their 20s” - if they are that selfish just put the parent in a home and visit once a week and be done with it. Otherwise care for them lovingly and be greatful you had the opportunity to share time with them (please don’t misunderstand me as I do know that seeing a parent degenerate in front of you is hard - I understand the anguish and sorrow just not resentment).
-
I say go for it - but hurry up! It can take a good couple of years at least for surrogacy so you need to start making real steps now or it WILL be too late.
I, for some reason, have many female friends who have decided to have children in their late forties - and none of them regret it. At least 3 of my close friends had theirs at 48-49 with partners 10 years older than them. None of them are single parents but I am not sure that matters a lot. The maturity, financial security and ability to work part time if you are FI is a big bonus. One friend’s husband K is in his 70s and has had a wonderful time with his 2 boys - (his kids are now 13 and 15) - he and my husband did the elementary school pick up every day and used to sit in what they called “codgers corner” waiting for the kids to come out of school and then walked home with them - they said it was very eye opening listening to the younger mothers gossip :)
K still gets short term contracts for govt who need his expertise so keeps up to date and is also involved in local politics - he also has a blog he posts in 1-3 per DAY :) So he is no old fogey.
I say this even though my mother had me at 40 then died when I was 5 at 45 - I spent part of my childhood with an unreliable father, in an orphanage for 3 years and then with an abusive step-mother but my mother was wonderful and I still have strong memories of her (I am now 52) and I am so glad she had me against all the advice of the time.
I am also going to disagree with the children are hard and require sacrifice and extreme emotional energy. I think it depends on who you are. I had mine at 35 and 37 which was considered old at the time and my dh is 10 years older than me. I went back to work when my first child, a son, was 11 weeks old and dh was the caregiver until he was 6 months old - he was 45 at the time and it was fine. You are right that a nanny or au pair can help relieve the pressure if you need it (I had mine in childcare rather than Nannies but would have had an au pair as well as childcare if I had been a single mother - a work colleague does that).
I have worked fulltime ever since - my dh is now in his 60s and my kids are 15 and 16. My daughter at 15 is going through a bit of a rough teenage patch but that is the first time I have felt an emotional toll. My son has moderate learning difficulties but we just got some tutors, hassled the school to get what he needs and move on - I don’t spend a lot of time on introspection.
I also host international students - I have two girls - both 15 at the moment.
We basically just get on with it.
I think if you are truly a loving parent any time you spend with them is good time. I am frankly appalled by the commenters above who resent “having to care for their parents in their 20s” - if they are that selfish just put the parent in a home and visit once a week and be done with it. Otherwise care for them lovingly and be greatful you had the opportunity to share time with them (please don’t misunderstand me as I do know that seeing a parent degenerate in front of you is hard - I understand the anguish and sorrow just not resentment).
Thank you so much for this. Yes, if I do this, I’ll start in August and cross fingers. There’s no way I’d ever regret if it could happen. I’m sorry to hear about your Mom but glad you have some fond memories.
-
With your timeframe, August sounds a long way away to me :) is there something stopping you starting sooner - at least get it underway - if you were planning on your surrogate being pregnant by August then that is another matter.
I am not sure what country you are in (I am not in the US either) but have you considered South Africa? (I am not in SA btw). One friend did IVF there in February and the costs are very reasonable and they were very ok about older mothers (and fathers - her partner is 55) they had a boy in October. I am not sure about surrogacy but I suspect it would be cheaper than the US.
-
With your timeframe, August sounds a long way away to me :) is there something stopping you starting sooner - at least get it underway - if you were planning on your surrogate being pregnant by August then that is another matter.
I am not sure what country you are in (I am not in the US either) but have you considered South Africa? (I am not in SA btw). One friend did IVF there in February and the costs are very reasonable and they were very ok about older mothers (and fathers - her partner is 55) they had a boy in October. I am not sure about surrogacy but I suspect it would be cheaper than the US.
I’ll look into SA to see if being a single father is an issue. Sometimes it is.
I had been on a strategy of just investing and would either need to withdraw that money, or stop investing and hold on to the cash for the surrogacy. I’m thinking that the saving the cash is the best option and by Aug I would have enough to get everything started.
-
Thanks for your reply. I said it badly about my uncle. He felt the younger kids had a worse time because of the good stuff - it was unfair for them.
Yes, we all have our own opinions, and the woman wanting IVF was only a couple of months after my best friend’s death, so parental mortality was pretty high in my mind, and the whole situation was just so wrong - she didn’t work, lived off her parents (who had serious health problems), and was about to have what became three children (she continued until she got a girl). I haven’t seen anyone else in that situation, so I might be far more mellow if the next was a woman in a situation more similar to yours. Thanks for pointing out that my opinion was a bit over the top!
I wish you luck with your final decision.
-
With your timeframe, August sounds a long way away to me :) is there something stopping you starting sooner - at least get it underway - if you were planning on your surrogate being pregnant by August then that is another matter.
I am not sure what country you are in (I am not in the US either) but have you considered South Africa? (I am not in SA btw). One friend did IVF there in February and the costs are very reasonable and they were very ok about older mothers (and fathers - her partner is 55) they had a boy in October. I am not sure about surrogacy but I suspect it would be cheaper than the US.
From what I can find, I think you need to reside in SA for surrogacy. Only the US has the necessary legal protections for single men, every place else is taking a huge risk. The Ukraine would have been perfect but you must be married and my ex was terrified to go there.
-
Now for something I'm actually curious about: what are you doing 20 hours a week for exercise?!?!?!
M-F, I do 30-40m of HIIT workouts, plus 1-1.5 hours of walking to and from work. Sometimes ride the bike as well. Also, have a hobby sport I have lessons for 1.5 hrs during the week. All of this, except the walk home is before work.
On the weekends, I do my workouts, bike rides and play my hobby sport for at least 5-7 hours.
If you do have a kid, expect that 20 hr/wk to drop to about 5-7 hr/wk.
Yep. Which is still a good amount. You just have to aim for efficiency.
-
Now for something I'm actually curious about: what are you doing 20 hours a week for exercise?!?!?!
M-F, I do 30-40m of HIIT workouts, plus 1-1.5 hours of walking to and from work. Sometimes ride the bike as well. Also, have a hobby sport I have lessons for 1.5 hrs during the week. All of this, except the walk home is before work.
On the weekends, I do my workouts, bike rides and play my hobby sport for at least 5-7 hours.
I guess this is obvious, but all this is going to go by the wayside when you're a single dad. I exercise during lunch breaks at work (gym is in my building) and walk to and from work but with a husband who works weekends other exercise is very difficult. You can't leave the kid by him/herself while you go run in the park.
Well, you can...thing is, you need to "think outside the box" with kids. Or just watch other parents.
From the age of 0-3, you can run/ walk with a kid in the jogging stroller/ ergo/ backpack. And you can go for a long time.
Maybe those gym workouts turn into "at home" workouts. When my big kid was 4, my husband started traveling a lot. So I asked for (and got) P90X for Christmas.
These days, he still travels a lot and I'm not quite ready to leave the 12 & 6 yo's together at home alone first thing in the morning.
Once the kid is aged 5-9, it gets trickier. They can walk/ hike with you, but not very fast or very far. Those are the tough "exercise" years. After that, they can join you running, walking, biking, hiking, swimming.
I manage with at-home workouts, lunch time walks, etc. Others manage with treadmills or the daycare at the gym.
-
My uncle had three kids, then a break of 15 years, then two more. One Christmas he was talking about being an older father. He said it was a mistake. As near as I remember it (it really stuck with me) "The human body is made to be able to keep up with young kids when you are in your 20s and 30s. If you have kids later, you have difficulty because you can't go for possibly days with little or no sleep. You don't have as much stamina for chasing kids around. You want to take it easy, and they are revved up with childhood energy, and can't. And it's bad for them because you have more and better stuff. When we had the first three, all our furniture was hand-me-downs, and it didn't matter if something was scratched or broken. Now we have good stuff and we care if it is wrecked." This is a man who was always the centre of his community, and the most vigorous person I have known for his age.
My best friend had a daughter at 42. Her boyfriend left her as soon as he knew she was pregnant, so she raised her daughter as a single mother. She died the day she was 60. She isn't the only person I know who is in our age bracket who has died recently in their 60s. It happens more frequently than I expected. To many people who are apparently as fit and well as those who aren't. Although many people do last well into their 70s, I suspect that it is wishful thinking for you to expect to last well into your 80s or 90s - no country has those life expectancies. My friend really wanted her daughter, and I was amazed at the life changes she made to be able to look after her. I think you may be significantly underestimating the differences that having a child will make to your life, and the difficulties there are in being a single parent.
This kinda makes me sad, because of a few things:
I'm the 8th of 9 kids. My dad was 44 when I was born, 46 when my brother was born.
Gee, I cannot imagine NOT BEING HERE, you know?
My dad was plenty fit. The thing is, he was more "old school" and "hands off" as a parent. Having an older parent absolutely did not suck for me - his personality as a parent wasn't the best. (As an aside, he was widowed young, and so my older sisters had a VASTLY different experience from me. He was a very "hands on" dad back when that was NOT DONE, simply because he had NO CHOICE. I hadn't known that until a few years ago.)
Sure, when you are older it can be harder to keep up with kids. Can be. Doesn't mean it will be. I mean, look at what people used to live like, look like, and be like at 50 just 50 years ago, compared to now? People live a lot longer. Many people live much healthier lives than back then. Heck my paternal grandfather died in 1940. He was 48 years old. My dad lived to be almost 82. My husband and I are plenty able to keep up with our kids (#2 born when I was 42 and hubby was 44). Kids keep you active.
As far as dying at 60 goes...that happens. But anything can happen. A few years ago, a local young mom of 41 died of the flu, leaving young twins. A friend of mine died at 50 of breast cancer. People die in car accidents all the time. I mean, would you rather live and have a parent die when you are a teenager or not live at all?
-
Thanks MM1970, for all of that. I can at this point do a 10-20 min HIIT workout that would burn calories all day in almost any environment. The first 6-9 months might be a challenge, but after that it should be doable. I’m happy to put all of that on hold if I have to. From 5-9 the kid would be in school so I’ll have time then for my own thing, and I’ll be retired so no other demands.
-
Now for something I'm actually curious about: what are you doing 20 hours a week for exercise?!?!?!
M-F, I do 30-40m of HIIT workouts, plus 1-1.5 hours of walking to and from work. Sometimes ride the bike as well. Also, have a hobby sport I have lessons for 1.5 hrs during the week. All of this, except the walk home is before work.
On the weekends, I do my workouts, bike rides and play my hobby sport for at least 5-7 hours.
I'm going to be captain obvious here, but you realize if you had a child alone (let alone an infant) most of this hobby sport stuff is going to stop? I exercise a lot, but I also have another parent to help. Some gyms have day care, but you're not going to be leaving your kid in the gym daycare for 7 hours on a Saturday while you do your sports.
We bought a treadmill and I have a bike on a trainer and that helps get in some exercise in the evening/late hours (or early morning).
It can be done, but there's always a compromise.
Are you planning on putting your child in day care for the first years? They won't be going to school until they are 5. So there are limited options for getting alone time IME.
-
Now for something I'm actually curious about: what are you doing 20 hours a week for exercise?!?!?!
M-F, I do 30-40m of HIIT workouts, plus 1-1.5 hours of walking to and from work. Sometimes ride the bike as well. Also, have a hobby sport I have lessons for 1.5 hrs during the week. All of this, except the walk home is before work.
On the weekends, I do my workouts, bike rides and play my hobby sport for at least 5-7 hours.
I'm going to be captain obvious here, but you realize if you had a child alone (let alone an infant) most of this hobby sport stuff is going to stop? I exercise a lot, but I also have another parent to help. Some gyms have day care, but you're not going to be leaving your kid in the gym daycare for 7 hours on a Saturday while you do your sports.
We bought a treadmill and I have a bike on a trainer and that helps get in some exercise in the evening/late hours (or early morning).
It can be done, but there's always a compromise.
Are you planning on putting your child in day care for the first years? They won't be going to school until they are 5. So there are limited options for getting alone time IME.
I’ve addressed this several times so no point in repeating myself anymore.
I will be off work for year 1, with family to assist. Year 2-4, I’ll modify my work schedule and either have an au pair or live in child assistant. Might do a day or two of daycare for socialization but not a fan of it.
-
I can't tell you what to do, but I can tell you about my experience.
I'm an older parent (turned 40 a few weeks before kid #2 was born). I suppose I did have a harder time with the newborn stage than I would have had as a younger person. And sure, I could probably have put all the energy that I put into going to raves in my 20s to better use, but I wouldn't have wanted my 25-year-old self taking care of another human. And then it took us a little longer than we expected to get pregnant both times. So here I am in my 40s with a young kid and a toddler, and I wouldn't change a thing. There's certainly more struggle in my life than there would have been without kids, but the joy is incomparable.
-
I just did the math. I could spend this money and achieve my FIRE goal in 7 years. That’s 3 years longer than I’d aim for if single, but still doable. I think the kid, all things working out, would be 5 when I retire completely. I’d prefer to be FIREd from 2-5, but can’t see that happening. Still all achieveable if I stick to a strict plan.
-
Seems like one of the first actionable steps is to have your 'swimmers' evaluated by your clinic/IVF specialist.
-
Seems like one of the first actionable steps is to have your 'swimmers' evaluated by your clinic/IVF specialist.
Been done.
-
I read most of this thread sitting in my kids' room while they fell asleep tonight. They're 4 and 6 and yes, the early years were unbelievably intense. I mean, it's still intense and still exhausting, but we're out of the diaper phase, finally, which really helps. And it is all so very worth it; I can't imagine not having these awesome little people in my life.
You seem grounded in the realities you may face, and have lots of resources and support. IMO if you go into it with eyes wide open, as you seem to be, you will have done as much as any parent can to prepare themselves for the experience.
It sounds like you will regret not going for it - regardless of outcome - far more than you'll miss your money or freedom. :)
Good luck!
-
I read most of this thread sitting in my kids' room while they fell asleep tonight. They're 4 and 6 and yes, the early years were unbelievably intense. I mean, it's still intense and still exhausting, but we're out of the diaper phase, finally, which really helps. And it is all so very worth it; I can't imagine not having these awesome little people in my life.
You seem grounded in the realities you may face, and have lots of resources and support. IMO if you go into it with eyes wide open, as you seem to be, you will have done as much as any parent can to prepare themselves for the experience.
It sounds like you will regret not going for it - regardless of outcome - far more than you'll miss your money or freedom. :)
Good luck!
Thank you. That was so sweet and kind. My fear now is that I’m getting myself excited about something that is still a long shot and after what I went through for 6 years, I’d love to avoid more heartache, but that can’t be controlled and as I’ve written, fear can’t stop you from living.
-
What are your next few actionable steps toward your dream? (Besides save up money until August.)
-
Just to throw out a few ideas -
One nice guy I knew really liked teenagers. So he would have a foreign exchange student live with him every school year. Usually a guy in 11th grade. He has kept in touch with almost all the kids and travels to visit some of them.
Foreign exchange students would take up the school year. In summer, you could travel.
Another idea is the Big Brother program. My brother did this with boys age 9 - 12 and found it very rewarding. (Turns out my brother got cancer and died at age 59. His wife was handicapped and could not have taken care of a child - even a teen - if they had adopted. So I'm glad he did his fathering in this way.)
I think you said your siblings have kids. You could take them traveling during the summers - such as take them one at a time during the summer between her/his sophmore and junior year of high school. That could be a life-time trip for a teen. You already have a life-long relationship with these kids - a trip would deepen it. Or you could live abroad and have each kid come stay with you rather than stay in US.
One retired gal I know likes to go to the hospital and hold babies who need cuddling. She does this three days a week when she is not traveling.
There are lots of kids needing parenting and lots of different ways of doing it.
-
Just to throw out a few ideas -
One nice guy I knew really liked teenagers. So he would have a foreign exchange student live with him every school year. Usually a guy in 11th grade. He has kept in touch with almost all the kids and travels to visit some of them.
Foreign exchange students would take up the school year. In summer, you could travel.
Another idea is the Big Brother program. My brother did this with boys age 9 - 12 and found it very rewarding. (Turns out my brother got cancer and died at age 59. His wife was handicapped and could not have taken care of a child - even a teen - if they had adopted. So I'm glad he did his fathering in this way.)
I think you said your siblings have kids. You could take them traveling during the summers - such as take them one at a time during the summer between her/his sophmore and junior year of high school. That could be a life-time trip for a teen. You already have a life-long relationship with these kids - a trip would deepen it. Or you could live abroad and have each kid come stay with you rather than stay in US.
One retired gal I know likes to go to the hospital and hold babies who need cuddling. She does this three days a week when she is not traveling.
There are lots of kids needing parenting and lots of different ways of doing it.
Great ideas, thanks for sharing.
-
What are your next few actionable steps toward your dream? (Besides save up money until August.)
1. Researching surrogacy places
2. Enrolling in a surrogacy conference
3. Health check
4. Research baby budgets and the how to strategize FIRE
5. Researching and creating a plan for how I would make this work in reality
-
You've touched on the cost and its impact on FIREing. Sounds like fatherhood has been a life priority for more than six years. If it took 250k Australian dollars (and selling some of your investments) in various unsuccessful attempts, then you could delay retirement and not travel as much. If a child were born after spending $250k, then you'd find a way to balance work and being a single parent. The child would get to see your work ethic, and you could model how to successfully balance career and family time.
-
You've touched on the cost and its impact on FIREing. Sounds like fatherhood has been a life priority for more than six years. If it took 250k Australian dollars (and selling some of your investments) in various unsuccessful attempts, then you could delay retirement and not travel as much. If a child were born after spending $250k, then you'd find a way to balance work and being a single parent. The child would get to see your work ethic, and you could model how to successfully balance career and family time.
One of the best things about MMM is teaching me to run the numbers, something I never did before with my life. I’ve started to work on my baby budgets for 0-1, 1-5, 5+. The numbers are staggering particularly because right now I don’t have a mortgage and the associated costs of home ownership, don’t have a car and all of those associated costs and don’t, obviously, pay for any childcare. I’ll keep renting, but I’ll need to have a car and need childcare from 1-5yo. That means my savings and investments will be a bit less than I had planned. I will most definitely have to work longer, unless the market goes wild again and I hit my target for FIRE quicker. That’s particularly annoying because where I live and work isn’t quite where I’d want to raise a kid, but I won’t make this money and have my great job anywhere else. So I have two options: either bite that bullet and deal if I have the kid as soon as possible, or wait 2 years and try for the kid? The latter option would reduce the time where I live and work but increase my age. With the former option I worry that if the kid spends too much time here then leaving might be more dramatic, and I also would like the kid fluent in another language natively, but where I live is English speaking, unless I only get au pairs from the countries I’d like the kid to be fluent in. More thinking required on this!
-
If you live where I think you live, you shouldn’t need a car. If you plan to rent there, do the Mustashian thing, and work out where everything is for the child and rent in that location so you don’t need a car and can catch public transport to work. Your city is multicultural. You should be able to live in a multicultural community where the child will hear the language you want it imprinted on every day, where any baby sitter you want to hire speaks that language at home.
-
If you live where I think you live, you shouldn’t need a car. If you plan to rent there, do the Mustashian thing, and work out where everything is for the child and rent in that location so you don’t need a car and can catch public transport to work. Your city is multicultural. You should be able to live in a multicultural community where the child will hear the language you want it imprinted on every day, where any baby sitter you want to hire speaks that language at home.
I was thinking, do I really need a car? During the week I can’t imagine using one, so that leaves the weekends. I’d use it to take the kid to things but we could just as easy walk with a stroller. I guess I have that parent panic of, what if the kid gets sick and I have to rush it to the hospital? Even if I do Uber or taxis I’ll need to have a car seat I carry with me. The pre-school would b in walking distance.
-
Uber has a car seat option.
If you are going to do it,I would definitely do it NOW. Don't wait.
-
Uber has a car seat option.
If you are going to do it,I would definitely do it NOW. Don't wait.
Yeah, that would be great
-
Uber has a car seat option.
If you are going to do it,I would definitely do it NOW. Don't wait.
Yeah, that would be great
Uber has a front facing child seat option that is not fit for infants under 12 months and not even recommended for children under 24 months.
https://help.uber.com/riders/article/uber-car-seat?nodeId=3abcbae1-132b-42a9-8277-0dab00fa3879
https://www.aap.org/en-us/about-the-aap/aap-press-room/Pages/AAP-Updates-Recommendations-on-Car-Seats-for-Children.aspx
-
Uber doesn’t appear to have that service where OP lives, however there are several taxi companies that are specifically for babies and young children. Taxis are exempt if the child is under 7. As Ubers are not taxis, they aren’t exempt, so should decline the fare.
-
Well, geez, now I’m not feeling so great about this. I’ve contacted several surrogacy agencies, and well, all that’s fine. None of this will be easy or simple, but again, it’s all doable. While I was doing my research though I discovered blogs by children conceived through surrogacy advocating against surrogacy. Their basic argument was that surrogacy was the selling of human life, and it removed children from the birth mother and their is a deep link of child to mother that occurs in the womb, and removing this causes trauma for the child that might not manifest fully for years. The children experience issues like some adopted kids, low self esteem, loss of identity, etc.
One person wrote the following: “Because somewhere between the narcissistic, selfish or desperate need for a child and the desire to make a buck, everyone else’s needs and wants are put before the kids needs. We, the children of surrogacy, become lost. That is the real tragedy. “
I’m haunted by this now. The kid wouldn’t know the donor mother, or the history or any information about siblings. I would never be able to give them that information. And I’ll never know how important that information would be. I would want to know. Hell, I hate the fact that I was circumcised without my consent as a baby, would the kid feel that it was wrong of me to bring it into the world knowing that it would never be able to know half of its genetic history? I think if the donor was known and somehow involved, even if through sharing pictures and light communications, it would be different. I think there are ways to address these issues but not with what is available to me as a single man.
Someone earlier mentioned co-parenting, which I initially didn’t think would be right for me, but I can feel now, that ethically (my ethics only), it would be better than what I was contemplating.
I feel like everything is making it improbable to be a father and it crushes me as I know I would be a great one. I’m a bit bummed out as I thought I was making progress through this. I’m still going to attend the surrogacy conference but they don’t have the children of surrogacy as speakers. That’s a big miss, as the impact on the children and their sense of self should matter.
On one hand I’m quite sad about this, but on the other, glad my research revealed this information and I can make choices to not overly burden my kid. I’m starting to feel like I would be consciously adding so much weigh to the kid: child of a surrogate, single father raising, older parent, living in multiple countries, identity issues, lack of siblings, etc.
Although I know I’ve overcome so much, is that the life I want for my kid and how do I know it will cope, without some type of majoring suffering, especially because I wanted this so much and happened to have the money to make it happen?
This all feels so cruel.
-
I feel for you. It sounds like you are thinking about having a child all the time. You seem certain that you would be a good dad. The most important part to being a good parent is being present in the moment. If you can do that, I say go for it. You do not know how long you will live. I adopted my second son at 44. I love him so much. I do not think that he minds that at 18 his mom is 63. I have a lot of energy and make sure I take fitness classes. One drawback is that I am retired and can not travel much as I would like to since he is a teenager and would rather be with his friends. Still, he goes to our beach house and to Spain where we have friends. I am a single mom and am so glad to have my two sons. At Christmas I had them both here and made a turkey. Let us know your decision. Good luck!
-
Dude.
Kids get fucked up every day by all sorts of shit.
If not fucking up a kid was a valid reason not to have one, then no one should have kids.
Of course wanting a kid is selfish. You would be doing it because you WANT a kid. So what? Are kids that are accidents somehow more valid?
Also, I know two women who surrogate and they DO NOT do it for money. I'm sure that's a thing, but women who do it for the deep personal experience of giving someone a baby are also out there too, so....
Don't worry, you might be a great dad and do everything right and your kid could still end up an axe murderer. There's literally no predicting how your kid will turn out.
There's no "solve for x" here.
I repeat: if you will spend your life regretting not having a kid, then have a damn kid. A part of having a kid is knowing that shit might go very very wrong. That's a BIG part of the deal.
You can't just want a perfect, happy, healthy kid who has a great life. You have to also be ready for a kid who gets cancer, a fucked up kid, a kid who becomes a fucked up adult, a kid who dies, a kid who decides they hate you and never talks to you again, a kid who becomes a drug addict, a kid who is born with defects so severe they need 24hr care for life, etc, etc.
Yes.
You might go through all of this and not get the wonderful parenting experience that you hoped for.
That's parenting for you.
Only you can decide if you still want it despite all of the risks.
I take issue with your premise that having children should not be a rational choice (see one of your previous responses), but rather is a calling. Raising a child not only effects you, but especially the child, and society as well. Although there is some value in using gut instinct to decide if you really want a child or not, and this is indeed a highly important factor, this should not be the only factor. Ensuring that the child has a reasonably promising future is certainly important, and I would argue at least equally important to your own personal urge to raise a child. Because other people have to live with your choices too. And simply feeling the calling to be a father is not enough.
Sure, a million different things might happen. But I think the critical thing here is for the OP to decide if the cumulative risks related to 1) child-rearing in general, 2) his age, 3) his single status, 4) any other relevant things,... are too high or not. And not just for his own self-focused interest in having a child, but for child as well.
Since these risks are not fully quantifiable, the best he can do is acknowledge that they are there. And then try to make an educated choice on his own. Simply making a choice because there is no other way to fulfill his need to raise a child, is insufficient in my opinion. He is not the only one affected by the decision.
I don't know the answer to whether the situation he'd be putting a child into is too risky or not. Certainly an average person (20s or 30s) having a child under average circumstances is not too high risk. As people age, those risks go up. Especially after age 35. What if they OP was approaching 55 instead of 50? What about 60? 70? 80? At some point, fatherhood becomes ludicrous, because you're putting the child in a disastrous situation.
To the OP, I'm not suggesting you shouldn't have a child for the reasons listed above. Rather, I'm just suggesting you continue to think deeply about these things (clearly you already are thinking about them heavily), and not just make this an emotional choice. Think rationally for the sake of your future child.
-
Well, geez, now I’m not feeling so great about this. I’ve contacted several surrogacy agencies, and well, all that’s fine. None of this will be easy or simple, but again, it’s all doable. While I was doing my research though I discovered blogs by children conceived through surrogacy advocating against surrogacy. Their basic argument was that surrogacy was the selling of human life, and it removed children from the birth mother and their is a deep link of child to mother that occurs in the womb, and removing this causes trauma for the child that might not manifest fully for years. The children experience issues like some adopted kids, low self esteem, loss of identity, etc.
One person wrote the following: “Because somewhere between the narcissistic, selfish or desperate need for a child and the desire to make a buck, everyone else’s needs and wants are put before the kids needs. We, the children of surrogacy, become lost. That is the real tragedy. “
I’m haunted by this now. The kid wouldn’t know the donor mother, or the history or any information about siblings. I would never be able to give them that information. And I’ll never know how important that information would be. I would want to know. Hell, I hate the fact that I was circumcised without my consent as a baby, would the kid feel that it was wrong of me to bring it into the world knowing that it would never be able to know half of its genetic history? I think if the donor was known and somehow involved, even if through sharing pictures and light communications, it would be different. I think there are ways to address these issues but not with what is available to me as a single man.
Someone earlier mentioned co-parenting, which I initially didn’t think would be right for me, but I can feel now, that ethically (my ethics only), it would be better than what I was contemplating.
I feel like everything is making it improbable to be a father and it crushes me as I know I would be a great one. I’m a bit bummed out as I thought I was making progress through this. I’m still going to attend the surrogacy conference but they don’t have the children of surrogacy as speakers. That’s a big miss, as the impact on the children and their sense of self should matter.
On one hand I’m quite sad about this, but on the other, glad my research revealed this information and I can make choices to not overly burden my kid. I’m starting to feel like I would be consciously adding so much weigh to the kid: child of a surrogate, single father raising, older parent, living in multiple countries, identity issues, lack of siblings, etc.
Although I know I’ve overcome so much, is that the life I want for my kid and how do I know it will cope, without some type of majoring suffering, especially because I wanted this so much and happened to have the money to make it happen?
This all feels so cruel.
This is good stuff for you to think about.
There are ethical issues to using a surrogate. There are ethical issues to adopting. There are ethical issues to biological children between couples.
It's all very complicated, and you have to come to the conclusion yourself.
-
Dude.
Kids get fucked up every day by all sorts of shit.
If not fucking up a kid was a valid reason not to have one, then no one should have kids.
Of course wanting a kid is selfish. You would be doing it because you WANT a kid. So what? Are kids that are accidents somehow more valid?
Also, I know two women who surrogate and they DO NOT do it for money. I'm sure that's a thing, but women who do it for the deep personal experience of giving someone a baby are also out there too, so....
Don't worry, you might be a great dad and do everything right and your kid could still end up an axe murderer. There's literally no predicting how your kid will turn out.
There's no "solve for x" here.
I repeat: if you will spend your life regretting not having a kid, then have a damn kid. A part of having a kid is knowing that shit might go very very wrong. That's a BIG part of the deal.
You can't just want a perfect, happy, healthy kid who has a great life. You have to also be ready for a kid who gets cancer, a fucked up kid, a kid who becomes a fucked up adult, a kid who dies, a kid who decides they hate you and never talks to you again, a kid who becomes a drug addict, a kid who is born with defects so severe they need 24hr care for life, etc, etc.
Yes.
You might go through all of this and not get the wonderful parenting experience that you hoped for.
That's parenting for you.
Only you can decide if you still want it despite all of the risks.
I take issue with your premise that having children should not be a rational choice (see one of your previous responses), but rather is a calling. Raising a child not only effects you, but especially the child, and society as well. Although there is some value in using gut instinct to decide if you really want a child or not, and this is indeed a highly important factor, this should not be the only factor. Ensuring that the child has a reasonably promising future is certainly important, and I would argue at least equally important to your own personal urge to raise a child. Because other people have to live with your choices too. And simply feeling the calling to be a father is not enough.
Sure, a million different things might happen. But I think the critical thing here is for the OP to decide if the cumulative risks related to 1) child-rearing in general, 2) his age, 3) his single status, 4) any other relevant things,... are too high or not. And not just for his own self-focused interest in having a child, but for child as well.
Since these risks are not fully quantifiable, the best he can do is acknowledge that they are there. And then try to make an educated choice on his own. Simply making a choice because there is no other way to fulfill his need to raise a child, is insufficient in my opinion. He is not the only one affected by the decision.
I don't know the answer to whether the situation he'd be putting a child into is too risky or not. Certainly an average person (20s or 30s) having a child under average circumstances is not too high risk. As people age, those risks go up. Especially after age 35. What if they OP was approaching 55 instead of 50? What about 60? 70? 80? At some point, fatherhood becomes ludicrous, because you're putting the child in a disastrous situation.
To the OP, I'm not suggesting you shouldn't have a child for the reasons listed above. Rather, I'm just suggesting you continue to think deeply about these things (clearly you already are thinking about them heavily), and not just make this an emotional choice. Think rationally for the sake of your future child.
Everything I have said is under the presumption that OP has the capacity and means to provide a good life for a child. He's said this over and over and I'm offering my perspective based on that presupposition.
I don't personally think his age and marital status actually offer all that much in terms of risk to the health and well-being of a child. I think they are factors that make it much more risky for his own long term health and well being.
You may have a different opinion on that and think that those are significant risks. On that, we can just choose to disagree.
However, I can and will absolutely agree with you that if someone's situation is too risky to be able to reasonably predict that they will be able to provide a great life for a child, then no, they shouldn't have one just because they want to.
My point I was trying to make in my last post was that even if you do remove all known risks, you still can't guarantee that a child will turn out happy and healthy, and that's a serious possibility that even the best parental candidates need to consider before taking that leap.
-
Dude.
Kids get fucked up every day by all sorts of shit.
If not fucking up a kid was a valid reason not to have one, then no one should have kids.
Of course wanting a kid is selfish. You would be doing it because you WANT a kid. So what? Are kids that are accidents somehow more valid?
Also, I know two women who surrogate and they DO NOT do it for money. I'm sure that's a thing, but women who do it for the deep personal experience of giving someone a baby are also out there too, so....
Don't worry, you might be a great dad and do everything right and your kid could still end up an axe murderer. There's literally no predicting how your kid will turn out.
There's no "solve for x" here.
I repeat: if you will spend your life regretting not having a kid, then have a damn kid. A part of having a kid is knowing that shit might go very very wrong. That's a BIG part of the deal.
You can't just want a perfect, happy, healthy kid who has a great life. You have to also be ready for a kid who gets cancer, a fucked up kid, a kid who becomes a fucked up adult, a kid who dies, a kid who decides they hate you and never talks to you again, a kid who becomes a drug addict, a kid who is born with defects so severe they need 24hr care for life, etc, etc.
Yes.
You might go through all of this and not get the wonderful parenting experience that you hoped for.
That's parenting for you.
Only you can decide if you still want it despite all of the risks.
I take issue with your premise that having children should not be a rational choice (see one of your previous responses), but rather is a calling. Raising a child not only effects you, but especially the child, and society as well. Although there is some value in using gut instinct to decide if you really want a child or not, and this is indeed a highly important factor, this should not be the only factor. Ensuring that the child has a reasonably promising future is certainly important, and I would argue at least equally important to your own personal urge to raise a child. Because other people have to live with your choices too. And simply feeling the calling to be a father is not enough.
Sure, a million different things might happen. But I think the critical thing here is for the OP to decide if the cumulative risks related to 1) child-rearing in general, 2) his age, 3) his single status, 4) any other relevant things,... are too high or not. And not just for his own self-focused interest in having a child, but for child as well.
Since these risks are not fully quantifiable, the best he can do is acknowledge that they are there. And then try to make an educated choice on his own. Simply making a choice because there is no other way to fulfill his need to raise a child, is insufficient in my opinion. He is not the only one affected by the decision.
I don't know the answer to whether the situation he'd be putting a child into is too risky or not. Certainly an average person (20s or 30s) having a child under average circumstances is not too high risk. As people age, those risks go up. Especially after age 35. What if they OP was approaching 55 instead of 50? What about 60? 70? 80? At some point, fatherhood becomes ludicrous, because you're putting the child in a disastrous situation.
To the OP, I'm not suggesting you shouldn't have a child for the reasons listed above. Rather, I'm just suggesting you continue to think deeply about these things (clearly you already are thinking about them heavily), and not just make this an emotional choice. Think rationally for the sake of your future child.
Everything I have said is under the presumption that OP has the capacity and means to provide a good life for a child. He's said this over and over and I'm offering my perspective based on that presupposition.
I don't personally think his age and marital status actually offer all that much in terms of risk to the health and well-being of a child. I think they are factors that make it much more risky for his own long term health and well being.
You may have a different opinion on that and think that those are significant risks. On that, we can just choose to disagree.
However, I can and will absolutely agree with you that if someone's situation is too risky to be able to reasonably predict that they will be able to provide a great life for a child, then no, they shouldn't have one just because they want to.
My point I was trying to make in my last post was that even if you do remove all known risks, you still can't guarantee that a child will turn out happy and healthy, and that's a serious possibility that even the best parental candidates need to consider before taking that leap.
Thanks for the discourse; cool that we can boil things down to root of disagreement and acknowledge it. I appreciate that.
I am not certain whether his age is too much of a risk, but think it is a big concern because he is pretty far above some commonly recommended cut-offs. If everyone in society started having kids at that age, it would no doubt be for the worse... and possibly significantly worse. The deleterious effects of having children at old age are more well-published for women, but I think sperm get old too.
In terms of being single, I have zero concerns about his competency in being able to overcome fatigue/etc... these are challenges but ones he seems likely to be able to overcome. The bigger concern in my opinion is the lack of a safety net that a spouse provides, in the event that he dies, falls terribly ill, etc... (e.g. things that are more likely as you age). So I do disagree with you there.
It's easy for people to chime in and say "well, I had a kid at 43 and everything turner out ok"; singular experiences don't matter as much as the statistics. So my point is, based on the imperfect knowledge we are limited to, supplying the seed for a child when you are almost 50 brings some serious concern with it... but I wouldn't go so far as to say he shouldn't have a kid. That part of the equation is for him to decide... part of his determination of the cumulative risk. My goal is to shift the conversation away from individual potential outcomes, to more of a viewpoint of making an educated choice based on the approximate likelihood of outcomes.
To your last point (and some previous ones), my counter-statement is: I see your point, but the point I was intending is that regardless of that, the objective should be to determine if the chance of a good outcome for the child is reasonably good.
Perhaps a good illustration is as follows:
Let's compare MTD to some guy who has a child at a young age but doesn't really want to be a father. I would agree that the drive/desire/calling to be a good father probably trumps MTD's age and single status, because having a father that doesn't want you is very likely to mess you up. However, my point is that this example doesn't actually matter; MTD still needs to decide if having a child is overall a good thing for the child. Examples of his situation being better than other terrible situations are not relevant; they are basically straw man arguments.
-
I cannot speak for children of surrogate, but I would not let that weigh on you too much. Intentional child, accidental child, adopted child, child when too young, child when too old, there is always something to feed parental guilt!
The most important thing for a child is to be loved and be raised in a stable environment. I considered being an egg donor, or possibly a surrogate when in grad school, because a) it was a decent amount of money b) in my mind I thought I would be able to do this great thing, allow a couple who really wanted a child, to have a child. I didn't mind at all the idea my genetic material would be out there, as long as the child was raised in a loving home. The only reason I didn't do it, is that the procedures for stimulating and harvesting the eggs may impact future fertility, and I knew I wanted kids in the future (my Mom and sister dissuaded me when they told me that). Aside from that I did not have ethical concerns.
-
I have two friends who became fathers later in life- one at age 50 and the other around 55 - they both have younger spouses. I would say right now, they are active engaged fathers who love their children very much- but they have the younger spouse as a safety net. I have another younger friend who is an only child and lost his father at about age 12 and then his mother at age 21. It has been very, very difficult for him (although he is finishing up his master's degree)- part of this (IMHO) due to his mother's denial about how ill she was and the estate was not in good shape.
-
It's easy for people to chime in and say "well, I had a kid at 43 and everything turner out ok"; singular experiences don't matter as much as the statistics. So my point is, based on the imperfect knowledge we are limited to, supplying the seed for a child when you are almost 50 brings some serious concern with it... but I wouldn't go so far as to say he shouldn't have a kid. That part of the equation is for him to decide... part of his determination of the cumulative risk. My goal is to shift the conversation away from individual potential outcomes, to more of a viewpoint of making an educated choice based on the approximate likelihood of outcomes.
OP answered that he had his sperm professionally evaluated and they were cleared. The embryos are also evaluated and carefully selected as part of the surrogacy process.
-
It's easy for people to chime in and say "well, I had a kid at 43 and everything turner out ok"; singular experiences don't matter as much as the statistics. So my point is, based on the imperfect knowledge we are limited to, supplying the seed for a child when you are almost 50 brings some serious concern with it... but I wouldn't go so far as to say he shouldn't have a kid. That part of the equation is for him to decide... part of his determination of the cumulative risk. My goal is to shift the conversation away from individual potential outcomes, to more of a viewpoint of making an educated choice based on the approximate likelihood of outcomes.
OP answered that he had his sperm professionally evaluated and they were cleared. The embryos are also evaluated and carefully selected as part of the surrogacy process.
That isn't going to do anything to look for de novo genetic anomalies, which happen at a greater rate with age.
There is no such thing as "clearing sperm", since it is produced continuously and only a very small subset can ever be looked at. They can evaluate for risk factors, but that's it.
Yes, pre-implantation genetic testing can be done; but when a full cycle goes through, and all the embryos are abnormal; you still have to pay. (Not to mention a perfect embryo doesn't necessarily mean implantation will happen, or a pregnancy will carry to term). OP has replied that going through all that money without a child would be very upsetting to him.
-
My husband has walked a similar path to you; this is our story.
My husband had turned 50 and still had never met the right girl and never had children. When my husband was 54 his father passed away. His father said that his one regret for my husband was that he had never had children as he knew that my husband would be an amazing dad. My husband had never considered other routes to parenthood but had accepted the awesome uncle role.
Six weeks later I (then 26) years old started a new job and met an older man there that I quite fancied...... 7 years and 4 kids later my husband's world has been turned upside down ;)
Plenty of people thought I was mad for marrying somebody so much older than me. Realistically I may outlive him by decades. But I decided back then that I would much rather have a shorter marriage to a man I love than not to have that marriage at all. The same applies to our parenting. He may not be in our children's lives for as long as he would like to be but he's an amazing dad while he is (and if he takes after his own parents then our children will fly the nest well before he goes).
People lose spouses and parents far earlier than they expect for any number of reasons. I'm not going to live my life from a place of fear. I believe in working out what you really want and enjoying it while you can. By all means take sensible measures (decide on a guardian, build strong support networks and set aside some money) but it sounds to me like you know what it is you really want to do.
-
My husband has walked a similar path to you; this is our story.
My husband had turned 50 and still had never met the right girl and never had children. When my husband was 54 his father passed away. His father said that his one regret for my husband was that he had never had children as he knew that my husband would be an amazing dad. My husband had never considered other routes to parenthood but had accepted the awesome uncle role.
Six weeks later I (then 26) years old started a new job and met an older man there that I quite fancied...... 7 years and 4 kids later my husband's world has been turned upside down ;)
Plenty of people thought I was mad for marrying somebody so much older than me. Realistically I may outlive him by decades. But I decided back then that I would much rather have a shorter marriage to a man I love than not to have that marriage at all. The same applies to our parenting. He may not be in our children's lives for as long as he would like to be but he's an amazing dad while he is (and if he takes after his own parents then our children will fly the nest well before he goes).
People lose spouses and parents far earlier than they expect for any number of reasons. I'm not going to live my life from a place of fear. I believe in working out what you really want and enjoying it while you can. By all means take sensible measures (decide on a guardian, build strong support networks and set aside some money) but it sounds to me like you know what it is you really want to do.
You made me cry. Thank you.
-
I've been reading along and keep thinking of the following: https://therumpus.net/2011/04/dear-sugar-the-rumpus-advice-column-71-the-ghost-ship-that-didnt-carry-us/
I don't have any advice but want you to know that I appreciate how thoughtful you're being about this decision. I wish you peace in whatever decision you make and also in grieving the end of your marriage. Best of luck.
-
Thanks again everyone for taking the time to share your thoughts, it’s meant so much to me. I had been feeling a bit down after reading those blogs and started to move away from the idea a bit. However, I’m committed to the research and investigation plan I’ve created for myself. Today I met with a father who just had his 11 week old sone through surrogacy. The father is only a couple years younger than myself. He shared so much information, particularly about how I can keep the birth mother or tummy mummy in my chikd’s life. He let me hold his son and I was like, yes, this, this is what I want. I shared my fears and concerns and he shared his perspective. He definitely made me feel more confident about it all. He also made clear I’d be looking at a bit more than $100k, which, quite frankly, is fine. I still have more research to do and I’m by no means settled on a path, but at least I have options to address the concerns raised by the blogger.
-
I say do it. I love my kid so much. I knew I wanted to be a parent when I was still a kid myself (probably about 14) and I did a lot of this and that and finally had my kid when I was 37. It's worth everything. It'll be more challenging on your own but you know that as you were raised in a single parent household.
There is a great book by Jennifer Grant called "Good Stuff" that has a lot of sweet stories of her childhood with her father, Cary Grant. He was in his 60's when she was born and he devoted himself to her. It really made me change my mind on what age a parent should be.
Just make sure you have the financials lined up, life insurance if you need it, who will be the guardian if anything happens to you. That sort of thing.
Good luck, there's nothing like the love you will have for your child.
-
socaso - that book sounds like it would be a great gift for my husband, who was 46 and 49 when our kids were born. He is an excellent dad. Nothing to do with age - he also would have been a great dad if he'd had kids in his 20s. He just loves kids and spends hours playing with them. Way more patience than me, in fact.
I agree with the others - it's going to have some very tough moments, particularly in the beginning. But with only one kid and enough money and family help being a single parent by choice is totally do-able IMO. Go for it - but do it soon.
-
I can't remember the exact name of it, but there is a trauma theory that I think it pretty well accepted now. Basically every traumatic thing that happens to a baby/kid adds up. And babies/kids are resilient so they can deal with a few of them happening. Separation from the birth mother is one of those traumas.
That isn't to say you shouldn't do it, but you should be aware that YES it is traumatic. So what can you do to minimize the other traumas and help them work through this trauma?
-
This may have been covered, but why not reach your FIRE number, then save another 100k and go with the surrogacy option then? It would at best add a couple years to your retirement date, and you would have the ability to spend all your time with the child as you want to.
-
I can't remember the exact name of it, but there is a trauma theory that I think it pretty well accepted now. Basically every traumatic thing that happens to a baby/kid adds up. And babies/kids are resilient so they can deal with a few of them happening. Separation from the birth mother is one of those traumas.
That isn't to say you shouldn't do it, but you should be aware that YES it is traumatic. So what can you do to minimize the other traumas and help them work through this trauma?
Robert Zapolsky has some good lectures on YouTube about this (search depression).
-
You mention the availability of family support a lot. Please have crystal clear, can't be misunderstood, concrete conversations with those family members, to be certain on both sides what support they anticipate offering. Obviously things can change, such if they have a health issue, but at least this way you have an idea about the "maximum" help and if your ideas match up.
My folks were always pressuring us to have kids. Based on the way they talked about grandkids and the fact that my sister, her husband and son lived with them for 2 years when my nephew was young, where they helped out a ton, we foolishly assumed that my folks would want to help us too. However, this turned out to be completely wrong. They rarely visit, but expect us to do so. When there, they never offer that we go have a date night/walk outside together/sleep in one morning, etc while they watch my son. Except under rare circumstances, they won't even play alone with my son either without one of us joining in. (They also think at not quite 2 that he should play by himself a lot more than he does.) It's frankly exhausting visiting their house, because they still expect the same amount of "help" around the house (e.g. doing dishes, setting/clearing table, assisting with cooking, taking care of their odds & ends projects, etc.) as when we visited before kid, don't toddler proof the house at all so we have to actively follow him around the house so he doesn't break something/hurt himself, and remembering to pack everything we might possible need into the car is a pain (as one small example, my mom will buy preferred drinks for everyone in the family, including lactose-free milk for another family member, but not whole milk for my son so we need to remember to bring up a sufficient supply and keep it cold). It's weird. It's not what we expected, but fortunately we weren't reliant on this help. Once he turns ~5, it'll be a lot easier to visit I think because he'll be more independent.
FWIW, before kids I thought I had plenty of energy for kids and dismissed my husband's concerns about energy. Now, I'm exhausted a lot of the time, which wears on you in so many other ways. We're 39/43 and trying for another so I'm not anti-older parents, but I am concerned that you aren't weighing this concern expressed by multiple parents sufficiently. My strong recommendation is that if you are going to do it, start now as the process may take a while and your energy and health is only likely to drop. Kids can learn new languages even after 5; I have several friends completely fluent in English who moved here age ~10. And as you mentioned, you can always get a cultural au pair earlier on.
In terms of health, get a check up now definitely, particularly as you flagged some specific concerns for you, but also know that can change at any time. My dad had a clean checkup just a week before his heart attack 15 years ago.
-
I can't remember the exact name of it, but there is a trauma theory that I think it pretty well accepted now. Basically every traumatic thing that happens to a baby/kid adds up. And babies/kids are resilient so they can deal with a few of them happening. Separation from the birth mother is one of those traumas.
That isn't to say you shouldn't do it, but you should be aware that YES it is traumatic. So what can you do to minimize the other traumas and help them work through this trauma?
Yes, I’ve done some research on this and one way to address is to try and connect with the birth mother and the the donor, if possible.
-
This may have been covered, but why not reach your FIRE number, then save another 100k and go with the surrogacy option then? It would at best add a couple years to your retirement date, and you would have the ability to spend all your time with the child as you want to.
If I was a bit younger it be fine but I started the FIRE journey late too. I’ll hit FIRE around 52 for me as a single person but I’d be 55 to hit the number I’d want for being a single parent. 55 is definitely too late to start having kids as a single person so that won’t work.
-
You mention the availability of family support a lot. Please have crystal clear, can't be misunderstood, concrete conversations with those family members, to be certain on both sides what support they anticipate offering. Obviously things can change, such if they have a health issue, but at least this way you have an idea about the "maximum" help and if your ideas match up.
My folks were always pressuring us to have kids. Based on the way they talked about grandkids and the fact that my sister, her husband and son lived with them for 2 years when my nephew was young, where they helped out a ton, we foolishly assumed that my folks would want to help us too. However, this turned out to be completely wrong. They rarely visit, but expect us to do so. When there, they never offer that we go have a date night/walk outside together/sleep in one morning, etc while they watch my son. Except under rare circumstances, they won't even play alone with my son either without one of us joining in. (They also think at not quite 2 that he should play by himself a lot more than he does.) It's frankly exhausting visiting their house, because they still expect the same amount of "help" around the house (e.g. doing dishes, setting/clearing table, assisting with cooking, taking care of their odds & ends projects, etc.) as when we visited before kid, don't toddler proof the house at all so we have to actively follow him around the house so he doesn't break something/hurt himself, and remembering to pack everything we might possible need into the car is a pain (as one small example, my mom will buy preferred drinks for everyone in the family, including lactose-free milk for another family member, but not whole milk for my son so we need to remember to bring up a sufficient supply and keep it cold). It's weird. It's not what we expected, but fortunately we weren't reliant on this help. Once he turns ~5, it'll be a lot easier to visit I think because he'll be more independent.
FWIW, before kids I thought I had plenty of energy for kids and dismissed my husband's concerns about energy. Now, I'm exhausted a lot of the time, which wears on you in so many other ways. We're 39/43 and trying for another so I'm not anti-older parents, but I am concerned that you aren't weighing this concern expressed by multiple parents sufficiently. My strong recommendation is that if you are going to do it, start now as the process may take a while and your energy and health is only likely to drop. Kids can learn new languages even after 5; I have several friends completely fluent in English who moved here age ~10. And as you mentioned, you can always get a cultural au pair earlier on.
In terms of health, get a check up now definitely, particularly as you flagged some specific concerns for you, but also know that can change at any time. My dad had a clean checkup just a week before his heart attack 15 years ago.
Thanks. I know exactly what you mean. The help I’m looking for with family would mostly be that first year. I’ll be on paternity leave and living with my family or near for 6 months to a year. Still, night feedings will all be on me.
I hear what you’re saying about energy and that’s something I’m thinking about. It’s clear that I’ll need a nanny, it’ll be too much for an au pair. I’m ok with that, except it will mean that FIRE goals will be delayed more, which may not be too bad. I want to travel and live in different countries with the kid, and traveling at 6 or 7 would probably be easier.
I still am not sure what I’m going to do. I’ve got some more meetings to discuss this and look at everything.
-
I really hope that the OP has a baby vis surrogacy because I think he will be a great parent. The thought and care and desire and planning is all already more than 90% of parents out there do before having a baby.
I feel like there is this extra burden of justifying your worthiness as a potential parent for people who don’t get free sex babies. And yet now many quasi-qualified or not-at-all qualified people make babies every day and then stumble through parenthood with little judgement?
And if you do go down the surrogacy route, come check us out in the Fertility, Baby, and Pregnancy Chat in the journals section. There are people there who are trying and making their families in all sorts of different ways.
-
I really hope that the OP has a baby vis surrogacy because I think he will be a great parent. The thought and care and desire and planning is all already more than 90% of parents out there do before having a baby.
I feel like there is this extra burden of justifying your worthiness as a potential parent for people who don’t get free sex babies. And yet now many quasi-qualified or not-at-all qualified people make babies every day and then stumble through parenthood with little judgement?
And if you do go down the surrogacy route, come check us out in the Fertility, Baby, and Pregnancy Chat in the journals section. There are people there who are trying and making their families in all sorts of different ways.
Thank you for that! I have to admit I work on managing my annoyance at how many people have children so easily, without thought or planning and don’t get get scrutinized. I know where it’s coming from and it’ll make me a better parent if it happens, but sheesh, it’d be a better world if others put this much thought into having kids.
-
I can relate to your situation in two very direct ways, but not sure if it will be helpful.
1. I have twin boys via a surrogate (my sister). My ex husband was not helpful and we divorced (long story) where I became a single mom. Doing it alone is very hard.
2. I ened up marrying a man (a very, very good man) who is your age and 11 years older than me. Long story short, he ended up adopting my son's. He is 52 with 12 year old boys... a dad! :)
PS: I have done all of this while working from home as essentially an at home parent to my boys. Also hard but very much worth it
Should you go the surrogacy route in the US and you have any questions, don't hesitate to reach out.
Big hugs to you!
Sent from my SM-S727VL using Tapatalk
-
I can relate to your situation in two very direct ways, but not sure if it will be helpful.
1. I have twin boys via a surrogate (my sister). My ex husband was not helpful and we divorced (long story) where I became a single mom. Doing it alone is very hard.
2. I ened up marrying a man (a very, very good man) who is your age and 11 years older than me. Long story short, he ended up adopting my son's. He is 52 with 12 year old boys... a dad! :)
PS: I have done all of this while working from home as essentially an at home parent to my boys. Also hard but very much worth it
Should you go the surrogacy route in the US and you have any questions, don't hesitate to reach out.
Big hugs to you!
Sent from my SM-S727VL using Tapatalk
Thank you for sharing!
-
Here is what I would do if I were you, OP (keeping in mind that you are open to relocating to other, low cost countries when you FIRE).
1. Accelerate your path to FIRE either by increasing income or reducing current and future expenses. Alternatively, take a long sabbatical with an option to return to work or find another job if need be.
2. More to a low cost country. For example, the Philippines (main reasons: LCOL country, easy to get a long term visa, many women want to have children with somebody who will take responsibility and not run away, age gap b/w farther and mother is less of a concern).
3. Get situated there and find a woman you want to have a child with (not necessarily a future wife, but that's an option as well).
--Take your time to find the right woman, obviously don't pick the first one that likes you.
--Be open and honest about your intentions: you are looking for a future mother of your child, will take care of the child and help the mother, but will not be a walking wallet for her big family.
--If you find the right one, have a child with her, maybe more than one. If not, stay childless.
The good thing about this plan is its flexibility. Do you prefer your future child to be of a particular ethnicity/culture? Pick a country accordingly. Worried about getting divorced and losing your assets you worked so hard to accumulate? Don't get married, just have a child and take care of him/her and the mother. Feel like getting married and bringing the family back home? You can do it at any point. Worried about being too old to take care of your child? In a more traditional society, this is less of a concern for fathers (e.g. if you have money, hire a maid for cheap, etc).
The biggest risk with this plan is finding the wrong woman to have a child with. Which is why I would tread carefully, take it slow, talk to other successful expat men who live in the same country and have children with local women.
-
On age, I know some in this string are saying its irresponsible to be a single parent at your age, but you know yourself and how healthy you are, and there are responsible things you should do to ensure the kid can grow up. You'll need to have your final arrangements in place, arrange for someone to take care of the kid if you were to pass, get enough life insurance to get the kid from birth to college if you were to go early. Set up a trust for your assets so you can pass them directly to the kid for their use.
You'll be like my father who saw his youngest go to college when he was 74, saw my brother graduate at 78, and now over 80 still has 15 more years left in him. So being a parent later in life is completely doable, and can be super rewarding. My dad was glad he waited as he's admitted he be a horrible parent if he'd has me and my brother earlier in his life.
-
The only aspect that I would comment on that generates concern is whether the birth mother/surrogate would be around to nurse the baby and nurture it in infancy. I realize that many infants aren't breastfed and many don't have their mother present but to intentionally exclude that part of the bonding, feeding and mothering for lack of a better word, would seem sad to me.
-
Here is what I would do if I were you, OP (keeping in mind that you are open to relocating to other, low cost countries when you FIRE).
1. Accelerate your path to FIRE either by increasing income or reducing current and future expenses. Alternatively, take a long sabbatical with an option to return to work or find another job if need be.
2. More to a low cost country. For example, the Philippines (main reasons: LCOL country, easy to get a long term visa, many women want to have children with somebody who will take responsibility and not run away, age gap b/w farther and mother is less of a concern).
3. Get situated there and find a woman you want to have a child with (not necessarily a future wife, but that's an option as well).
--Take your time to find the right woman, obviously don't pick the first one that likes you.
--Be open and honest about your intentions: you are looking for a future mother of your child, will take care of the child and help the mother, but will not be a walking wallet for her big family.
--If you find the right one, have a child with her, maybe more than one. If not, stay childless.
The good thing about this plan is its flexibility. Do you prefer your future child to be of a particular ethnicity/culture? Pick a country accordingly. Worried about getting divorced and losing your assets you worked so hard to accumulate? Don't get married, just have a child and take care of him/her and the mother. Feel like getting married and bringing the family back home? You can do it at any point. Worried about being too old to take care of your child? In a more traditional society, this is less of a concern for fathers (e.g. if you have money, hire a maid for cheap, etc).
The biggest risk with this plan is finding the wrong woman to have a child with. Which is why I would tread carefully, take it slow, talk to other successful expat men who live in the same country and have children with local women.
Umm, thanks for the thought but this doesn’t seem doable. Primarily, having a baby as a foreigner leaves me extremely vulnerable. If it doesn’t work out with the mother I would be fighting a custody battle I’d most likely lose. That would be devastating and I would never one a child used to blackmail me. Way too risky.
-
The only aspect that I would comment on that generates concern is whether the birth mother/surrogate would be around to nurse the baby and nurture it in infancy. I realize that many infants aren't breastfed and many don't have their mother present but to intentionally exclude that part of the bonding, feeding and mothering for lack of a better word, would seem sad to me.
I wasn’t breastfed. Neither were any siblings or cousins or parents. Lots of people I grew up with weren’t breastfed. I have friends who can’t breastfeed for various reasons. I would still feed the kid and we’d bond. I’ve been told there are also milk banks, but formula will be fine and has its own advantages.
-
On age, I know some in this string are saying its irresponsible to be a single parent at your age, but you know yourself and how healthy you are, and there are responsible things you should do to ensure the kid can grow up. You'll need to have your final arrangements in place, arrange for someone to take care of the kid if you were to pass, get enough life insurance to get the kid from birth to college if you were to go early. Set up a trust for your assets so you can pass them directly to the kid for their use.
You'll be like my father who saw his youngest go to college when he was 74, saw my brother graduate at 78, and now over 80 still has 15 more years left in him. So being a parent later in life is completely doable, and can be super rewarding. My dad was glad he waited as he's admitted he be a horrible parent if he'd has me and my brother earlier in his life.
Thanks for sharing.
-
The only aspect that I would comment on that generates concern is whether the birth mother/surrogate would be around to nurse the baby and nurture it in infancy. I realize that many infants aren't breastfed and many don't have their mother present but to intentionally exclude that part of the bonding, feeding and mothering for lack of a better word, would seem sad to me.
I wasn’t breastfed. Neither were any siblings or cousins or parents. Lots of people I grew up with weren’t breastfed. I have friends who can’t breastfeed for various reasons. I would still feed the kid and we’d bond. I’ve been told there are also milk banks, but formula will be fine and has its own advantages.
I also meant and obviously didn't express this well, that excluding a mother from the infant's life, intentionally due to your current situation, seems sad to me.
Again, JMHO.
-
The only aspect that I would comment on that generates concern is whether the birth mother/surrogate would be around to nurse the baby and nurture it in infancy. I realize that many infants aren't breastfed and many don't have their mother present but to intentionally exclude that part of the bonding, feeding and mothering for lack of a better word, would seem sad to me.
I wasn’t breastfed. Neither were any siblings or cousins or parents. Lots of people I grew up with weren’t breastfed. I have friends who can’t breastfeed for various reasons. I would still feed the kid and we’d bond. I’ve been told there are also milk banks, but formula will be fine and has its own advantages.
I also meant and obviously didn't express this well, that excluding a mother from the infant's life, intentionally due to your current situation, seems sad to me.
Again, JMHO.
Sure. There’s lots of things that are sad: infertility, losing babies, marriages crumbling under the weight, watching families with 2 parents hurt and abuse children, men abandoning women and letting children grow up fatherless, etc. I could wallow in the sadness or I could do act. I could look at how to get the tummy mummy involved, or ensure there are plenty of women around who love my kid, and ensure I love my kid and I’m present the child every day. I can do something about the sadness. Will life be perfect? Nope, no one gets a perfect life. No one. I can choose to the best parent I can be every day. That’s what matters.
-
The only aspect that I would comment on that generates concern is whether the birth mother/surrogate would be around to nurse the baby and nurture it in infancy. I realize that many infants aren't breastfed and many don't have their mother present but to intentionally exclude that part of the bonding, feeding and mothering for lack of a better word, would seem sad to me.
I wasn’t breastfed. Neither were any siblings or cousins or parents. Lots of people I grew up with weren’t breastfed. I have friends who can’t breastfeed for various reasons. I would still feed the kid and we’d bond. I’ve been told there are also milk banks, but formula will be fine and has its own advantages.
I also meant and obviously didn't express this well, that excluding a mother from the infant's life, intentionally due to your current situation, seems sad to me.
Again, JMHO.
Sure. There’s lots of things that are sad: infertility, losing babies, marriages crumbling under the weight, watching families with 2 parents hurt and abuse children, men abandoning women and letting children grow up fatherless, etc. I could wallow in the sadness or I could do act. I could look at how to get the tummy mummy involved, or ensure there are plenty of women around who love my kid, and ensure I love my kid and I’m present the child every day. I can do something about the sadness. Will life be perfect? Nope, no one gets a perfect life. No one. I can choose to the best parent I can be every day. That’s what matters.
A-fuckin-men
For some reason, you are being held to a higher standard than most people who choose to reproduce P-in-V style.
I've seen countless cases of people having babies in circumstances that would be considered "sad" or "tragic" and yet nobody really thinks much of it because babies were conceived in loooooooooooooove or whatever.
Bitches gonna judge.
Be a crazy good dad, hope your kid doesn't end up a serial killer or something, and don't worry too much about the opinions of people on the internet.
Sane parents don't do that...they just feel guilty about everything in general...always...yeah...you're kind of fucked.
-
The only aspect that I would comment on that generates concern is whether the birth mother/surrogate would be around to nurse the baby and nurture it in infancy. I realize that many infants aren't breastfed and many don't have their mother present but to intentionally exclude that part of the bonding, feeding and mothering for lack of a better word, would seem sad to me.
I wasn’t breastfed. Neither were any siblings or cousins or parents. Lots of people I grew up with weren’t breastfed. I have friends who can’t breastfeed for various reasons. I would still feed the kid and we’d bond. I’ve been told there are also milk banks, but formula will be fine and has its own advantages.
I also meant and obviously didn't express this well, that excluding a mother from the infant's life, intentionally due to your current situation, seems sad to me.
Again, JMHO.
Sure. There’s lots of things that are sad: infertility, losing babies, marriages crumbling under the weight, watching families with 2 parents hurt and abuse children, men abandoning women and letting children grow up fatherless, etc. I could wallow in the sadness or I could do act. I could look at how to get the tummy mummy involved, or ensure there are plenty of women around who love my kid, and ensure I love my kid and I’m present the child every day. I can do something about the sadness. Will life be perfect? Nope, no one gets a perfect life. No one. I can choose to the best parent I can be every day. That’s what matters.
A-fuckin-men
For some reason, you are being held to a higher standard than most people who choose to reproduce P-in-V style.
I've seen countless cases of people having babies in circumstances that would be considered "sad" or "tragic" and yet nobody really thinks much of it because babies were conceived in loooooooooooooove or whatever.
Bitches gonna judge.
Be a crazy good dad, hope your kid doesn't end up a serial killer or something, and don't worry too much about the opinions of people on the internet.
Sane parents don't do that...they just feel guilty about everything in general...always...yeah...you're kind of fucked.
Lol, thanks. Seeing how a lot of serial killers come from traditional 2 parent homes, I’ve got a pretty good chance mine should beat the odds. ;-)
-
I opened up Facebook yesterday to see the sad news that an old high school friend is dying from an inoperable blood clot on his brain. I haven't seen him for over 30 years in person, but he was one of the biggest, most joyful personalities I ever encountered. And I watched him meet and marry his lovely wife and raise their young daughter (she is only 4 now) over the past few years on Facebook, and that was clearly the most joyous period of his life. I can't believe how much pain they must be in to lose him. But they had him, and he them, for those beautiful years.
My own dad died at age 52. Yes, the loss is unbearable, but loss is part of life.
I hope you have a child, and cherish them.
How horrible. No one is promised tomorrow, so yes, make the most out of today.
-
The only aspect that I would comment on that generates concern is whether the birth mother/surrogate would be around to nurse the baby and nurture it in infancy. I realize that many infants aren't breastfed and many don't have their mother present but to intentionally exclude that part of the bonding, feeding and mothering for lack of a better word, would seem sad to me.
I wasn’t breastfed. Neither were any siblings or cousins or parents. Lots of people I grew up with weren’t breastfed. I have friends who can’t breastfeed for various reasons. I would still feed the kid and we’d bond. I’ve been told there are also milk banks, but formula will be fine and has its own advantages.
I also meant and obviously didn't express this well, that excluding a mother from the infant's life, intentionally due to your current situation, seems sad to me.
Again, JMHO.
Sure. There’s lots of things that are sad: infertility, losing babies, marriages crumbling under the weight, watching families with 2 parents hurt and abuse children, men abandoning women and letting children grow up fatherless, etc. I could wallow in the sadness or I could do act. I could look at how to get the tummy mummy involved, or ensure there are plenty of women around who love my kid, and ensure I love my kid and I’m present the child every day. I can do something about the sadness. Will life be perfect? Nope, no one gets a perfect life. No one. I can choose to the best parent I can be every day. That’s what matters.
A-fuckin-men
For some reason, you are being held to a higher standard than most people who choose to reproduce P-in-V style.
I've seen countless cases of people having babies in circumstances that would be considered "sad" or "tragic" and yet nobody really thinks much of it because babies were conceived in loooooooooooooove or whatever.
Bitches gonna judge.
Be a crazy good dad, hope your kid doesn't end up a serial killer or something, and don't worry too much about the opinions of people on the internet.
Sane parents don't do that...they just feel guilty about everything in general...always...yeah...you're kind of fucked.
From the OP:
"Anyways, love your thoughts, but please be gentle as this is quite personal and sensitive and I’m not looking at getting into an argument with anyone. If you can’t have kids and you want them, it sucks so much you wouldn’t believe it. "
The OP asked for thoughts. I didn't attack him, I didn't curse at him, I didn't denigrate him. I gave my thoughts.
The opinion, or judgement or thoughts, as he included above was how he was framing the discussion.
Now, obviously, he doesn't agree and perhaps doesn't want to hear any thoughts that might point out a downside such as that which I shared.
But, he has opened it up in a public forum and is bound to get opinions that are different than his own.
Again, I constructed my response as respectfully as possible considering that I was presenting something that is what I consider a major flaw in his plan.
A pre-meditated choice. Not equivalent to some of the examples that he gave which are circumstances often well beyond the control of the individual(loss of a child, infertility, domestic abuse, death, etc....)
I would hope that one could have a reasonable discourse here but your best response was:
Bitches gonna judge.
One will just have to consider the source.....
-
The only aspect that I would comment on that generates concern is whether the birth mother/surrogate would be around to nurse the baby and nurture it in infancy. I realize that many infants aren't breastfed and many don't have their mother present but to intentionally exclude that part of the bonding, feeding and mothering for lack of a better word, would seem sad to me.
I wasn’t breastfed. Neither were any siblings or cousins or parents. Lots of people I grew up with weren’t breastfed. I have friends who can’t breastfeed for various reasons. I would still feed the kid and we’d bond. I’ve been told there are also milk banks, but formula will be fine and has its own advantages.
I also meant and obviously didn't express this well, that excluding a mother from the infant's life, intentionally due to your current situation, seems sad to me.
Again, JMHO.
Sure. There’s lots of things that are sad: infertility, losing babies, marriages crumbling under the weight, watching families with 2 parents hurt and abuse children, men abandoning women and letting children grow up fatherless, etc. I could wallow in the sadness or I could do act. I could look at how to get the tummy mummy involved, or ensure there are plenty of women around who love my kid, and ensure I love my kid and I’m present the child every day. I can do something about the sadness. Will life be perfect? Nope, no one gets a perfect life. No one. I can choose to the best parent I can be every day. That’s what matters.
A-fuckin-men
For some reason, you are being held to a higher standard than most people who choose to reproduce P-in-V style.
I've seen countless cases of people having babies in circumstances that would be considered "sad" or "tragic" and yet nobody really thinks much of it because babies were conceived in loooooooooooooove or whatever.
Bitches gonna judge.
Be a crazy good dad, hope your kid doesn't end up a serial killer or something, and don't worry too much about the opinions of people on the internet.
Sane parents don't do that...they just feel guilty about everything in general...always...yeah...you're kind of fucked.
From the OP:
"Anyways, love your thoughts, but please be gentle as this is quite personal and sensitive and I’m not looking at getting into an argument with anyone. If you can’t have kids and you want them, it sucks so much you wouldn’t believe it. "
The OP asked for thoughts. I didn't attack him, I didn't curse at him, I didn't denigrate him. I gave my thoughts.
The opinion, or judgement or thoughts, as he included above was how he was framing the discussion.
Now, obviously, he doesn't agree and perhaps doesn't want to hear any thoughts that might point out a downside such as that which I shared.
But, he has opened it up in a public forum and is bound to get opinions that are different than his own.
Again, I constructed my response as respectfully as possible considering that I was presenting something that is what I consider a major flaw in his plan.
A pre-meditated choice. Not equivalent to some of the examples that he gave which are circumstances often well beyond the control of the individual(loss of a child, infertility, domestic abuse, death, etc....)
I would hope that one could have a reasonable discourse here but your best response was:
Bitches gonna judge.
One will just have to consider the source.....
Sorry to offend.
"Bitches gonna judge" is one of my catch phrases said generally to mean that no matter what decisions one makes that they will be judged by people, so trying to avoid judgement is impossible and pointless.
For what it's worth I do think your input was well written and thoughtful and valuable, and I don't find your posts to be overly judgemental at all. Also, just because I disagree with you doesn't mean that what you are saying isn't important to hear and consider.
My response is more a general criticism of the fact that society will seem hold him to a much higher standard than couples who have children in all sorts of circumstances.
I could have been more thoughtful of how you would read my reply and said something like "this is not an attack on pp, as they have posted an opinion I disagree with rather thoughtfully and it's worth seeing this from both sides" but I admittedly wasn't thinking of you, I was just thinking of OP when I replied, which was inconsiderate on my part since I quoted you.
I might be a bitch, but I'm not a total bitch, so I'm sorry.
-
All good....thanks for your reply....
-
Is there a way to DIY surrogacy? Without going through an agency and contracting directly with the surrogate? It may be exponentially cheaper to go that route, but I don’t know the legal implications.
I have colleagues who practice surrogacy law, so depending on your state I may be able to get some names/referrals for you (I have an extended network I can reach out to, too). DM me if that’s something you’d like me to look into for you.
Good luck.
-
Is there a way to DIY surrogacy? Without going through an agency and contracting directly with the surrogate? It may be exponentially cheaper to go that route, but I don’t know the legal implications.
I have colleagues who practice surrogacy law, so depending on your state I may be able to get some names/referrals for you (I have an extended network I can reach out to, too). DM me if that’s something you’d like me to look into for you.
Good luck.
Thank you and I might take you up on that. I’d be quite concerned about the DIY route only because of the various complexities and this isn’t the type of thing you want to mess up. It also would require me finding on my own a donor and surrogate, the clinics and then all of the legal work to be coordinated. Some surrogacy centers have a DIY type of service where they will consult with you and help you along, it might save around $20-40k. I think if I do this I have to go all in and not really get hung up on the cost, it’s incredibly expensive. The only way I know how to make it cheaper would mean losing knowing who the tummy mommy is and that connection and I think I want that so the kid feels some connection.
-
Is there a way to DIY surrogacy? Without going through an agency and contracting directly with the surrogate? It may be exponentially cheaper to go that route, but I don’t know the legal implications.
I have colleagues who practice surrogacy law, so depending on your state I may be able to get some names/referrals for you (I have an extended network I can reach out to, too). DM me if that’s something you’d like me to look into for you.
Good luck.
Thank you and I might take you up on that. I’d be quite concerned about the DIY route only because of the various complexities and this isn’t the type of thing you want to mess up. It also would require me finding on my own a donor and surrogate, the clinics and then all of the legal work to be coordinated. Some surrogacy centers have a DIY type of service where they will consult with you and help you along, it might save around $20-40k. I think if I do this I have to go all in and not really get hung up on the cost, it’s incredibly expensive. The only way I know how to make it cheaper would mean losing knowing who the tummy mommy is and that connection and I think I want that so the kid feels some connection.
That makes sense. I think even within your parameters you have some wiggle room. Depending on whether you want the donor to be a specific person and/or separate from the surrogate. There are a lot of lower income women who have easy births who enjoy being pregnant that you could look for (they exist!) if you wanted to go that route for a lot less than you’d think. Some even live with you as part of the contract, if you want to go that far (they get free room and board, and you get to see they’re healthy and eating well). Even without that, I’d consult with a surrogacy lawyer too just to make sure you’re preserving all of your rights from the get-go.
-
The only aspect that I would comment on that generates concern is whether the birth mother/surrogate would be around to nurse the baby and nurture it in infancy. I realize that many infants aren't breastfed and many don't have their mother present but to intentionally exclude that part of the bonding, feeding and mothering for lack of a better word, would seem sad to me.
I wasn’t breastfed. Neither were any siblings or cousins or parents. Lots of people I grew up with weren’t breastfed. I have friends who can’t breastfeed for various reasons. I would still feed the kid and we’d bond. I’ve been told there are also milk banks, but formula will be fine and has its own advantages.
I also meant and obviously didn't express this well, that excluding a mother from the infant's life, intentionally due to your current situation, seems sad to me.
Again, JMHO.
Sure. There’s lots of things that are sad: infertility, losing babies, marriages crumbling under the weight, watching families with 2 parents hurt and abuse children, men abandoning women and letting children grow up fatherless, etc. I could wallow in the sadness or I could do act. I could look at how to get the tummy mummy involved, or ensure there are plenty of women around who love my kid, and ensure I love my kid and I’m present the child every day. I can do something about the sadness. Will life be perfect? Nope, no one gets a perfect life. No one. I can choose to the best parent I can be every day. That’s what matters.
A-fuckin-men
For some reason, you are being held to a higher standard than most people who choose to reproduce P-in-V style.
I've seen countless cases of people having babies in circumstances that would be considered "sad" or "tragic" and yet nobody really thinks much of it because babies were conceived in loooooooooooooove or whatever.
Bitches gonna judge.
Be a crazy good dad, hope your kid doesn't end up a serial killer or something, and don't worry too much about the opinions of people on the internet.
Sane parents don't do that...they just feel guilty about everything in general...always...yeah...you're kind of fucked.
From the OP:
"Anyways, love your thoughts, but please be gentle as this is quite personal and sensitive and I’m not looking at getting into an argument with anyone. If you can’t have kids and you want them, it sucks so much you wouldn’t believe it. "
The OP asked for thoughts. I didn't attack him, I didn't curse at him, I didn't denigrate him. I gave my thoughts.
The opinion, or judgement or thoughts, as he included above was how he was framing the discussion.
Now, obviously, he doesn't agree and perhaps doesn't want to hear any thoughts that might point out a downside such as that which I shared.
But, he has opened it up in a public forum and is bound to get opinions that are different than his own.
Again, I constructed my response as respectfully as possible considering that I was presenting something that is what I consider a major flaw in his plan.
A pre-meditated choice. Not equivalent to some of the examples that he gave which are circumstances often well beyond the control of the individual(loss of a child, infertility, domestic abuse, death, etc....)
I would hope that one could have a reasonable discourse here but your best response was:
Bitches gonna judge.
One will just have to consider the source.....
I’m not quite sure what would motivate you to write that I perhaps don’t want to hear any thoughts thst point out a downside. I clearly heard you and responded. Just because I have a response that doesn’t confirm with your thinking doesn’t mean you weren’t heard, it just means I didn’t agree with you. I appreciate all opinions and feedback, and the fact that people are taking time from their very busy days to assist me with my issue. I’m still working through this and trying to figure out what’s best, for everyone thst would be affected. You’ve expressed a great deal of sadness at the potential decisions I might make. I get that. I’m fortunate though to not have to live with your sadness. Whatever decision I make, it will be as thought out as I can make it, and I am comfortable with that level of responsibility and commitment.
-
Is there a way to DIY surrogacy? Without going through an agency and contracting directly with the surrogate? It may be exponentially cheaper to go that route, but I don’t know the legal implications.
I have colleagues who practice surrogacy law, so depending on your state I may be able to get some names/referrals for you (I have an extended network I can reach out to, too). DM me if that’s something you’d like me to look into for you.
Good luck.
Thank you and I might take you up on that. I’d be quite concerned about the DIY route only because of the various complexities and this isn’t the type of thing you want to mess up. It also would require me finding on my own a donor and surrogate, the clinics and then all of the legal work to be coordinated. Some surrogacy centers have a DIY type of service where they will consult with you and help you along, it might save around $20-40k. I think if I do this I have to go all in and not really get hung up on the cost, it’s incredibly expensive. The only way I know how to make it cheaper would mean losing knowing who the tummy mommy is and that connection and I think I want that so the kid feels some connection.
That makes sense. I think even within your parameters you have some wiggle room. Depending on whether you want the donor to be a specific person and/or separate from the surrogate. There are a lot of lower income women who have easy births who enjoy being pregnant that you could look for (they exist!) if you wanted to go that route for a lot less than you’d think. Some even live with you as part of the contract, if you want to go that far (they get free room and board, and you get to see they’re healthy and eating well). Even without that, I’d consult with a surrogacy lawyer too just to make sure you’re preserving all of your rights from the get-go.
Thank you, much appreciated. Those are great suggestions although I don’t live in the US currently and that would require moving or bringing the person to me, which has so many issues and have to make sure nothing is construed as human trafficking. As mentioned, for a variety of reasons, all the easy and affordable routes are closed to me. Fortunately I have the means to still go down this path, if I want. It would be great to have some surrogacy contacts.
-
The only aspect that I would comment on that generates concern is whether the birth mother/surrogate would be around to nurse the baby and nurture it in infancy. I realize that many infants aren't breastfed and many don't have their mother present but to intentionally exclude that part of the bonding, feeding and mothering for lack of a better word, would seem sad to me.
I wasn’t breastfed. Neither were any siblings or cousins or parents. Lots of people I grew up with weren’t breastfed. I have friends who can’t breastfeed for various reasons. I would still feed the kid and we’d bond. I’ve been told there are also milk banks, but formula will be fine and has its own advantages.
I also meant and obviously didn't express this well, that excluding a mother from the infant's life, intentionally due to your current situation, seems sad to me.
Again, JMHO.
Sure. There’s lots of things that are sad: infertility, losing babies, marriages crumbling under the weight, watching families with 2 parents hurt and abuse children, men abandoning women and letting children grow up fatherless, etc. I could wallow in the sadness or I could do act. I could look at how to get the tummy mummy involved, or ensure there are plenty of women around who love my kid, and ensure I love my kid and I’m present the child every day. I can do something about the sadness. Will life be perfect? Nope, no one gets a perfect life. No one. I can choose to the best parent I can be every day. That’s what matters.
A-fuckin-men
For some reason, you are being held to a higher standard than most people who choose to reproduce P-in-V style.
I've seen countless cases of people having babies in circumstances that would be considered "sad" or "tragic" and yet nobody really thinks much of it because babies were conceived in loooooooooooooove or whatever.
Bitches gonna judge.
Be a crazy good dad, hope your kid doesn't end up a serial killer or something, and don't worry too much about the opinions of people on the internet.
Sane parents don't do that...they just feel guilty about everything in general...always...yeah...you're kind of fucked.
From the OP:
"Anyways, love your thoughts, but please be gentle as this is quite personal and sensitive and I’m not looking at getting into an argument with anyone. If you can’t have kids and you want them, it sucks so much you wouldn’t believe it. "
The OP asked for thoughts. I didn't attack him, I didn't curse at him, I didn't denigrate him. I gave my thoughts.
The opinion, or judgement or thoughts, as he included above was how he was framing the discussion.
Now, obviously, he doesn't agree and perhaps doesn't want to hear any thoughts that might point out a downside such as that which I shared.
But, he has opened it up in a public forum and is bound to get opinions that are different than his own.
Again, I constructed my response as respectfully as possible considering that I was presenting something that is what I consider a major flaw in his plan.
A pre-meditated choice. Not equivalent to some of the examples that he gave which are circumstances often well beyond the control of the individual(loss of a child, infertility, domestic abuse, death, etc....)
I would hope that one could have a reasonable discourse here but your best response was:
Bitches gonna judge.
One will just have to consider the source.....
Sorry to offend.
"Bitches gonna judge" is one of my catch phrases said generally to mean that no matter what decisions one makes that they will be judged by people, so trying to avoid judgement is impossible and pointless.
For what it's worth I do think your input was well written and thoughtful and valuable, and I don't find your posts to be overly judgemental at all. Also, just because I disagree with you doesn't mean that what you are saying isn't important to hear and consider.
My response is more a general criticism of the fact that society will seem hold him to a much higher standard than couples who have children in all sorts of circumstances.
I could have been more thoughtful of how you would read my reply and said something like "this is not an attack on pp, as they have posted an opinion I disagree with rather thoughtfully and it's worth seeing this from both sides" but I admittedly wasn't thinking of you, I was just thinking of OP when I replied, which was inconsiderate on my part since I quoted you.
I might be a bitch, but I'm not a total bitch, so I'm sorry.
I love your advice and support and don’t find it bitchy at all. It reminds me that there will be people in my corner passionately supporting me even when it feels like the world is against me. That’s a nice feeling.
-
I didn't read all 5 pages of this thread yet, but let me speak from the the following vantage points:
- a close relative went through IVF and had twins in her 50s. She's married but sole breadwinner, was very tired, but things seem to be settling down.
- my best friend went the sperm bank route at age 42. She is now considering having another at age 48.
- I had children at ages 33, 39, and 43. Energy is definitely lower, but we're a lot better off than when we had our first child.
Some questions/thoughts:
- How big and supportive is your extended family? My single mom friend is well off and has a good job, but she has a very small family, and basically she is leaning on her single older brother as a backup. However, she is determined to have another child, mostly for the sake of her first child. She doesn't want him to be alone in the world when she passes.
- On the subject of extended family, a possible minus to not raising a child with a partner is less extended family... fewer cousins, uncles, aunts, grandparents to play with or spoil your child. Cousins often play important roles with an only child. If your network is not big, you need to start building up a group of friends as additional mentors and supports for your child.
- On the other hand, my single mom friend (who is divorced but her ex has no relation to her child) clearly relishes not having to deal with in-laws of any sort.
- An advantage you have in being an older single father, is that childbirth will not wreak havoc on your older body.
- You may not get the kind of kid you thought you would get. And children become adults soon enough. You may be nodding now and thinking "I know that", but you really don't know until you live it! Could you do well with living with a young adult who doesn't share your interests or think the way you do-- in fact, seems to go out of his way to be the opposite of you?
- On a more positive note, whatever you do, you're probably not going to regret raising a child. Few people seem to do so. And most people don't consider all this stuff before they become parents, and yet they do, so you'll be ahead of the game.
-
I didn't read all 5 pages of this thread yet, but let me speak from the the following vantage points:
- a close relative went through IVF and had twins in her 50s. She's married but sole breadwinner, was very tired, but things seem to be settling down.
- my best friend went the sperm bank route at age 42. She is now considering having another at age 48.
- I had children at ages 33, 39, and 43. Energy is definitely lower, but we're a lot better off than when we had our first child.
Some questions/thoughts:
- How big and supportive is your extended family? My single mom friend is well off and has a good job, but she has a very small family, and basically she is leaning on her single older brother as a backup. However, she is determined to have another child, mostly for the sake of her first child. She doesn't want him to be alone in the world when she passes.
- On the subject of extended family, a possible minus to not raising a child with a partner is less extended family... fewer cousins, uncles, aunts, grandparents to play with or spoil your child. Cousins often play important roles with an only child. If your network is not big, you need to start building up a group of friends as additional mentors and supports for your child.
- On the other hand, my single mom friend (who is divorced but her ex has no relation to her child) clearly relishes not having to deal with in-laws of any sort.
- An advantage you have in being an older single father, is that childbirth will not wreak havoc on your older body.
- You may not get the kind of kid you thought you would get. And children become adults soon enough. You may be nodding now and thinking "I know that", but you really don't know until you live it! Could you do well with living with a young adult who doesn't share your interests or think the way you do-- in fact, seems to go out of his way to be the opposite of you?
- On a more positive note, whatever you do, you're probably not going to regret raising a child. Few people seem to do so. And most people don't consider all this stuff before they become parents, and yet they do, so you'll be ahead of the game.
If my child was a racist, sexist, homophobic serial killer who voted Republican, I’d have some issues, otherwise, you do you kid.
-
MTD, here's something else to consider in your FIRE plans with a kid. You mention that you plan on moving to a LCOL country as part of your FIRE. If you succeed in having a child, would you still want to move them away from your family? Having cousins around might be a good experience (although I never had any close), and you might want to have the extended family support, even if you aren't relying on it. If you were to stay, I am guessing your estimated FIRE expenses would go up. You might want to estimate expenses if you stayed where you are or something similar versus just assuming you will move no matter what.
Also, I'm in the go for the kid camp! Good luck!
-
MTD, here's something else to consider in your FIRE plans with a kid. You mention that you plan on moving to a LCOL country as part of your FIRE. If you succeed in having a child, would you still want to move them away from your family? Having cousins around might be a good experience (although I never had any close), and you might want to have the extended family support, even if you aren't relying on it. If you were to stay, I am guessing your estimated FIRE expenses would go up. You might want to estimate expenses if you stayed where you are or something similar versus just assuming you will move no matter what.
Also, I'm in the go for the kid camp! Good luck!
Thanks. Outside of the first year, it’ll just be me and the kid, without any regular family support, so that’s why I’ll need an au pair or nanny (very affordable in LCOL places), and I’ll have to be very good at meeting other parents with kids for play dates.
-
Been thinking about some points recently made and now thinking that I might need to move back home after I become FI to be around family so the kid is around cousins and everyone. That’s a sacrifice I’ll have to make but I’ll be up for that, as I’m only having one kid and there won’t be siblings.
-
MTD, here's something else to consider in your FIRE plans with a kid. You mention that you plan on moving to a LCOL country as part of your FIRE. If you succeed in having a child, would you still want to move them away from your family? Having cousins around might be a good experience (although I never had any close), and you might want to have the extended family support, even if you aren't relying on it. If you were to stay, I am guessing your estimated FIRE expenses would go up. You might want to estimate expenses if you stayed where you are or something similar versus just assuming you will move no matter what.
Also, I'm in the go for the kid camp! Good luck!
Thanks. Outside of the first year, it’ll just be me and the kid, without any regular family support, so that’s why I’ll need an au pair or nanny (very affordable in LCOL places), and I’ll have to be very good at meeting other parents with kids for play dates.
Can you explain this? Is your extended family planning on moving away right when your kid turns one? How do they know that they are going to do this when you haven't even had the kid yet so they don't know the timing? If your family plans to move away from the area when your kid is one, I revise what I said above. Raising kids without a partner and without family help is a really tall order. We're raising our kids without family help as our families are either far away or, in the case of my in-laws, no longer living and it's tough.
Earlier you said that you'd have extended family help raising the child - but you never mentioned the one year cut off. I really don't understand this. I suspect that if your extended family (I'm assuming your parents and siblings) get attached to your child after spending so much time with him/her during the first year they'll probably re-think their moving plans as they'll want to continue to be in his/her life. In this case, Phoenix's point is a very good one. You should also think about private school fees as local schooling can be difficult for a western kid in many LCOL parts of the world.
-
Been thinking about some points recently made and now thinking that I might need to move back home after I become FI to be around family so the kid is around cousins and everyone. That’s a sacrifice I’ll have to make but I’ll be up for that, as I’m only having one kid and there won’t be siblings.
I think it's best that way, if you have a good and supportive family. If something were to happen to my friend as mentioned above, and to her brother (who is older than her and not in the best of health), she has asked me to be her child's guardian, but although I have agreed to adopt her child if necessary, it is a rather large thing to ask of someone not related. Being of limited means and having my own family to care for, I would not have agreed to this for anyone other than a lifelong childhood friend. Good parenting means having at least 2-3 guardians lined up in case of the unexpected.
As I think about it, becoming a parent often means, paradoxically, accepting that you will become dependent on others more than if you were childless and free. It is not a bad thing-- probably in fact a good thing-- but you are forced to make more connections with society than you might otherwise choose.
-
MTD, here's something else to consider in your FIRE plans with a kid. You mention that you plan on moving to a LCOL country as part of your FIRE. If you succeed in having a child, would you still want to move them away from your family? Having cousins around might be a good experience (although I never had any close), and you might want to have the extended family support, even if you aren't relying on it. If you were to stay, I am guessing your estimated FIRE expenses would go up. You might want to estimate expenses if you stayed where you are or something similar versus just assuming you will move no matter what.
Also, I'm in the go for the kid camp! Good luck!
Thanks. Outside of the first year, it’ll just be me and the kid, without any regular family support, so that’s why I’ll need an au pair or nanny (very affordable in LCOL places), and I’ll have to be very good at meeting other parents with kids for play dates.
Can you explain this? Is your extended family planning on moving away right when your kid turns one? How do they know that they are going to do this when you haven't even had the kid yet so they don't know the timing? If your family plans to move away from the area when your kid is one, I revise what I said above. Raising kids without a partner and without family help is a really tall order. We're raising our kids without family help as our families are either far away or, in the case of my in-laws, no longer living and it's tough.
Earlier you said that you'd have extended family help raising the child - but you never mentioned the one year cut off. I really don't understand this. I suspect that if your extended family (I'm assuming your parents and siblings) get attached to your child after spending so much time with him/her during the first year they'll probably re-think their moving plans as they'll want to continue to be in his/her life. In this case, Phoenix's point is a very good one. You should also think about private school fees as local schooling can be difficult for a western kid in many LCOL parts of the world.
Unfortunately I can’t go into detail without it sharing too much information about myself. In short, I don’t live in the US now, but would move home for the kid’s first year, but then need to move back to where I live and have a good job. After about 4-5 more years, I’d FIRE and move back to the US to have the kid around family. So from 1-4ish, the kid would need day care, nanny and/or au pair options while I work. I would travel back and family would visit over that time.
-
Been thinking about some points recently made and now thinking that I might need to move back home after I become FI to be around family so the kid is around cousins and everyone. That’s a sacrifice I’ll have to make but I’ll be up for that, as I’m only having one kid and there won’t be siblings.
I think it's best that way, if you have a good and supportive family. If something were to happen to my friend as mentioned above, and to her brother (who is older than her and not in the best of health), she has asked me to be her child's guardian, but although I have agreed to adopt her child if necessary, it is a rather large thing to ask of someone not related. Being of limited means and having my own family to care for, I would not have agreed to this for anyone other than a lifelong childhood friend. Good parenting means having at least 2-3 guardians lined up in case of the unexpected.
As I think about it, becoming a parent often means, paradoxically, accepting that you will become dependent on others more than if you were childless and free. It is not a bad thing-- probably in fact a good thing-- but you are forced to make more connections with society than you might otherwise choose.
Yes, I’m understanding this more and more as I work through everything. Could I manage by myself if I had to? Of course. But, I have a loving and caring family and we have some new babies in the family so the kid would have cousins in a 3-4 year time frame, which is pretty good, they can all be buddies and there is no logical reason for me to deny that if it’s possible. I can always find time to take the kid on trips and adventures. Not quite sure what I’ll do with my time when kid is in school but I’m sure I’ll find something.
-
Update:
Well, I’m progressing this and it looks like I’m going to give it a go.
Actions so far:
1. Have identified an agency that is responsive, affordable and answering my questions
2. Have set a target date of August this year
3. Have shared with mom and she’s fully supportive and on board
4. Have researched company and government family leave policies (make too much for gov)
5. Have booked in for surrogacy conference where I’ll meet the owner of the agency I like
Once I meet the owner and confirm all my remaining questions I’ll then book appointments for medical testing and psychological counseling (for my own benefit), while continuing to save money for the first stage payment.
Still a long way to go and who knows if a healthy baby will end up in my arms in 18 months, but it won’t be from a lack of love, planning and effort.
-
Congratulations! For what it's worth, I think you'll be a great dad!!!
Sent from my VCE-AL00 using Tapatalk
-
Congratulations! For what it's worth, I think you'll be a great dad!!!
Sent from my VCE-AL00 using Tapatalk
Thank you!
-
I’m struggling with this and trying to work through it. I’m single now and fine with it but there’s a part of me that still would like to raise a child, but I’ll be 50 in a couple of years. If that doesn’t happen, then the plan will be, live my best life traveling the world. Honestly not sure what path to go down as the former is fraught with many concerns. But I’d be such a great dad!
So, Option A, the kid: I’d have to the surrogacy route (please don’t suggest other ways, they’ve all been thought through and won’t work for various reasons). Most places that were more affordable have closed to single men so that basically leaves the US, where it will cost over $100k. If I go that direction, it would mean putting my FIRE plans on hold for probably 3-5 extra years as all my plans now are focused me as a single guy, not a single parent. That’s not horrible, but to be honest, I’d love to be a SAHP for my kid as much as possible and not work, especially the first 5-7 years, so FIRE would be ideal during that time. It also just feels like so much money, when most people have them for free. Depressing.
Option B: accept that I’ll always be childless, focus on being child free and a great and generous uncle and FIRE in 4 years, spending my life traveling the globe. Sounds great and I love it, except nothing obsesses me more than watching parents with kids and imagining what my life would be like if I had that? I’m so envious. I think I would trade anything, but then, push come to shove, I wonder because I worry that the cost is too great.
Anyways, love your thoughts, but please be gentle as this is quite personal and sensitive and I’m not looking at getting into an argument with anyone. If you can’t have kids and you want them, it sucks so much you wouldn’t believe it.
Hi, I don't want to suggest anything ill-minded (for the lack of word) but maybe you can move to a third world country and find someone you can fall in love with, and kinda-travel in an exotic country and also get married and have kid all at the same time?
-
I’m struggling with this and trying to work through it. I’m single now and fine with it but there’s a part of me that still would like to raise a child, but I’ll be 50 in a couple of years. If that doesn’t happen, then the plan will be, live my best life traveling the world. Honestly not sure what path to go down as the former is fraught with many concerns. But I’d be such a great dad!
So, Option A, the kid: I’d have to the surrogacy route (please don’t suggest other ways, they’ve all been thought through and won’t work for various reasons). Most places that were more affordable have closed to single men so that basically leaves the US, where it will cost over $100k. If I go that direction, it would mean putting my FIRE plans on hold for probably 3-5 extra years as all my plans now are focused me as a single guy, not a single parent. That’s not horrible, but to be honest, I’d love to be a SAHP for my kid as much as possible and not work, especially the first 5-7 years, so FIRE would be ideal during that time. It also just feels like so much money, when most people have them for free. Depressing.
Option B: accept that I’ll always be childless, focus on being child free and a great and generous uncle and FIRE in 4 years, spending my life traveling the globe. Sounds great and I love it, except nothing obsesses me more than watching parents with kids and imagining what my life would be like if I had that? I’m so envious. I think I would trade anything, but then, push come to shove, I wonder because I worry that the cost is too great.
Anyways, love your thoughts, but please be gentle as this is quite personal and sensitive and I’m not looking at getting into an argument with anyone. If you can’t have kids and you want them, it sucks so much you wouldn’t believe it.
Hi, I don't want to suggest anything ill-minded (for the lack of word) but maybe you can move to a third world country and find someone you can fall in love with, and kinda-travel in an exotic country and also get married and have kid all at the same time?
Umm, so, you want me to quit my high paying job before i’ve FIRED to move and somehow rapidly meet, marry and impregnate a third world woman?
That’s a better alternative what I’m planning?
-
Update:
Well, I’m progressing this and it looks like I’m going to give it a go.
Actions so far:
...
Still a long way to go and who knows if a healthy baby will end up in my arms in 18 months, but it won’t be from a lack of love, planning and effort.
Congrats! Maybe it's time for a journal? I just started one (which no one visits) and would love to be your older-single-aspiring parent buddy.
-
Update:
Well, I’m progressing this and it looks like I’m going to give it a go.
Actions so far:
1. Have identified an agency that is responsive, affordable and answering my questions
2. Have set a target date of August this year
3. Have shared with mom and she’s fully supportive and on board
4. Have researched company and government family leave policies (make too much for gov)
5. Have booked in for surrogacy conference where I’ll meet the owner of the agency I like
Once I meet the owner and confirm all my remaining questions I’ll then book appointments for medical testing and psychological counseling (for my own benefit), while continuing to save money for the first stage payment.
Still a long way to go and who knows if a healthy baby will end up in my arms in 18 months, but it won’t be from a lack of love, planning and effort.
Good work! It sounds like you are going to make it happen!
Another thought, since I just saw your move plan. As you plan your moves, please also consider the consequences of moving your child. It may be a little hard to move the child away from her/his home and familiar faces, unless you are both visiting your relatives several times a year. To a young child, the people you hire for childcare are family, so if there is a way you can continue a relationship with them after your move, that will be better. Or could you persuade your mother (though she must be quite elderly for travel) to stay with you for months at a time, to provide continuity for the child?
Anecdotal source: We also used to move around a bit, and I am amazed at how kids can form very strong connections by age 4. My kids still feel close to children they met at age 3, and they still miss the crappy apartments we were living in when they were tiny. Also, my mother-in-law was raised by a foster family until about age 7, though her mother visited frequently and gave money for her support. Suddenly her mother got married and whisked her away to the US... for which my MIL always resented her, for removing her from the family and surroundings where she was happy.
-
Update:
Well, I’m progressing this and it looks like I’m going to give it a go.
Actions so far:
1. Have identified an agency that is responsive, affordable and answering my questions
2. Have set a target date of August this year
3. Have shared with mom and she’s fully supportive and on board
4. Have researched company and government family leave policies (make too much for gov)
5. Have booked in for surrogacy conference where I’ll meet the owner of the agency I like
Once I meet the owner and confirm all my remaining questions I’ll then book appointments for medical testing and psychological counseling (for my own benefit), while continuing to save money for the first stage payment.
Still a long way to go and who knows if a healthy baby will end up in my arms in 18 months, but it won’t be from a lack of love, planning and effort.
Good work! It sounds like you are going to make it happen!
Another thought, since I just saw your move plan. As you plan your moves, please also consider the consequences of moving your child. It may be a little hard to move the child away from her/his home and familiar faces, unless you are both visiting your relatives several times a year. To a young child, the people you hire for childcare are family, so if there is a way you can continue a relationship with them after your move, that will be better. Or could you persuade your mother (though she must be quite elderly for travel) to stay with you for months at a time, to provide continuity for the child?
Anecdotal source: We also used to move around a bit, and I am amazed at how kids can form very strong connections by age 4. My kids still feel close to children they met at age 3, and they still miss the crappy apartments we were living in when they were tiny. Also, my mother-in-law was raised by a foster family until about age 7, though her mother visited frequently and gave money for her support. Suddenly her mother got married and whisked her away to the US... for which my MIL always resented her, for removing her from the family and surroundings where she was happy.
Thanks, yes, all that is being planned for. Mom will be visiting (she’s not elderly, she was a young mom), and we will be visiting family over the years until we move back permanently. Most kid attachments build at 4-5, and travel, moving and meeting new people will be something my kid will learn as our norm and way of being. I plan on traveling with the kid a lot as I like the idea of world-schooling. We won’t have a conventional life, but we’ll have a fun, adventurous and stimulating one. That’s my current idea but you also have to see what kid you get, if the kid really can’t handle it and needs to be in one place, simple, we stay where my family is all the time. I’m not going to overthink this right now. Step one, have healthy kid. Everything else will flow from that, and since 99% of parents make it up as they go, I think we’ll be ok.
-
Update:
Well, I’m progressing this and it looks like I’m going to give it a go.
Actions so far:
...
Still a long way to go and who knows if a healthy baby will end up in my arms in 18 months, but it won’t be from a lack of love, planning and effort.
Congrats! Maybe it's time for a journal? I just started one (which no one visits) and would love to be your older-single-aspiring parent buddy.
Thank you! I might just do that. I’d probably start it under a new screen name. I will say though, if this actually happens, it will all be because of MMM and what I’ve learned here. Couldn’t even have thought about it if I hadn’t improved my financial health.
-
I attended the conference, met the owners of the agency (really sweet people) and met and spoke with a client who fu,key endorsed working with the agency. I’ve made up my mind and I’m going to do this. I hope it works out, will be mentally prepared that it might not and I’ll make myself be at peace with that cause as I’ve said, I’ve done everything I could to become a father.
Thanks everyone who contributed with support and challenging my thinking. I won’t use this space as a journal since it’s served its purpose to help me work through it all.
Forever indebted to MMM and this community for helping to make me strong enough to try this as a single man.
-
Any update to this? Curious how it turned out as the Mrs and I are considering the same.
-
Any update to this? Curious how it turned out as the Mrs and I are considering the same.
@MrThatsDifferent
-
It didn’t work out for reasons I don’t feel like sharing. I decided to let go of that dream because it was too painful to keep having my hopes dashed. I ended up getting dogs and they have helped to deal with the parental feelings, but nothing can replace that want. Was a rough couple years moving on, but life does indeed move on. Honestly though I’m not quite sure how I would’ve gone if it worked out and then had to deal with the COVID madness.
My only advice would be to consider therapy to help you deal with things if it works out or if it doesn’t.
-
I'm sorry that things didn't work out the way you hoped, and glad that your life is still awesome.
-
It didn’t work out for reasons I don’t feel like sharing. I decided to let go of that dream because it was too painful to keep having my hopes dashed. I ended up getting dogs and they have helped to deal with the parental feelings, but nothing can replace that want. Was a rough couple years moving on, but life does indeed move on. Honestly though I’m not quite sure how I would’ve gone if it worked out and then had to deal with the COVID madness.
My only advice would be to consider therapy to help you deal with things if it works out or if it doesn’t.
Sorry to hear. I know there were a lot of people rooting for you here.
-
I'm sorry, @MrThatsDifferent . One of the most puzzling things in the world to me is how some people who have no business being parents, are, and those who would make wonderful parents, aren't.
-
I'm sorry, @MrThatsDifferent . One of the most puzzling things in the world to me is how some people who have no business being parents, are, and those who would make wonderful parents, aren't.
100% this.
My aunt and uncle are wonderful people who should have been able to be wonderful parents, but it never worked out. I know they tried to adopt more than once but it always fell through. I haven’t asked them about it directly though because I know it is a painful subject.
-
Really unfair to the child, unless you are the pinnacle of health and fitness. You will be nearing or at 70 by the time they are 18. Lot of people can go down hill fast and unexpectedly in their 60s and there is no backup if something happens to you. You also won't be fit and have the endurance a child deserves in their 7-15 stage when you should be getting them out and active.
There is also a real risk you will leave that child alone in the world in their early 20s as you reach mid 70s. One parent being much older is fine, but intentionally having only one older parent is selfish.
I'm inclined to agree, even as I respect the deep pull and call to parent.
I also want to bring up another point that no one has mentioned: children of old parents don't get to have relationships with grandparents.
In my family we have a number of kids born to 40+ parents. The loss of the grandparent relp (because dead, dementia) was really big even with parents who were super-engaged. The parent cannot make up for this. And despite trying hard, couldn't find older people who wanted to commit to that long-term relp with their kid.
The OP doesn't mention their own family or his relp with them. It's critical for their well-being that the child have a sturdy network of unconditional relationships, not just one aging parent.
If the child is a girl, its key that she have a trusted female 'mom' who can help her transition puberty with wellness. No matter how well intended, a man has not had this experience and cannot support the way another woman can. (and yes, the same goes for boys and single moms. and most of the ones I know are painfully aware of the effects of the lack of a good male role-model support for their son).
-
@Missy B Please see above - it looks like this hasn't worked out for the OP and thus your advice may be painful to read. Perhaps delete? If so, I will delete my post too.
But also please note that having young parents is no guarantee of grandparent help! Grandparents can still pass away early (I say this knowing several people who lost parents this year), live far away, have emotional challenges that make helping difficult or simply be uninterested in helping.
Finally, I would like to plug that there are MANY non-traditional families with same sex parents, single parents by choice and otherwise (death, lack of interest, incarcerated, etc.) so focusing on a need for a particular gender role model is limiting and potentially stigmatizing. I firmly believing the world is evolving and a parent can find resources if they want. It might be more helpful instead to suggest where they can find such resources (family, social groups such boy/girl scouts or similar groups, friends, church, etc.) than to just state it's needed, which seems to be discouraging rather than supportive of someone's desire for a family.
-
Really unfair to the child, unless you are the pinnacle of health and fitness. You will be nearing or at 70 by the time they are 18. Lot of people can go down hill fast and unexpectedly in their 60s and there is no backup if something happens to you. You also won't be fit and have the endurance a child deserves in their 7-15 stage when you should be getting them out and active.
There is also a real risk you will leave that child alone in the world in their early 20s as you reach mid 70s. One parent being much older is fine, but intentionally having only one older parent is selfish.
I'm inclined to agree, even as I respect the deep pull and call to parent.
I also want to bring up another point that no one has mentioned: children of old parents don't get to have relationships with grandparents.
In my family we have a number of kids born to 40+ parents. The loss of the grandparent relp (because dead, dementia) was really big even with parents who were super-engaged. The parent cannot make up for this. And despite trying hard, couldn't find older people who wanted to commit to that long-term relp with their kid.
The OP doesn't mention their own family or his relp with them. It's critical for their well-being that the child have a sturdy network of unconditional relationships, not just one aging parent.
If the child is a girl, its key that she have a trusted female 'mom' who can help her transition puberty with wellness. No matter how well intended, a man has not had this experience and cannot support the way another woman can. (and yes, the same goes for boys and single moms. and most of the ones I know are painfully aware of the effects of the lack of a good male role-model support for their son).
This is offensive to anyone who can't offer a traditional family. While individuals often lament the lack of a same sex role model in the immediate family, it isn't upheld by sociological studies as being at all important. In fact, kids tend to look around them and pick and choose traits.
And there are certainly cases where a single father can offer a girl better menstrual support because he isn't imposing his own experience. My mother decided to impose a practice that was so old fashioned she had moved beyond it and it was disastrous for my heavier flow.
-
I think it's hilarious that some people say young parents get to have involved grandparents. Ha! My parents were nowhere to be seen in helping our young family or interacting with their grandkids, who are now grown/almost grown. Updates about their grandkids were and are met with disinterest. Despite that, we + grandkids do our best to support them now that they need it.
I also know several men in their 50s who became first-time dads.
As for Mr. That's Different, that's a painful update, I'm sorry to read that. Perhaps the energy of this noble desire of yours will bring you something deeply satisfying beyond your initial imagined outcome. Often, letting go leads to serendipity.
-
Really unfair to the child, unless you are the pinnacle of health and fitness. You will be nearing or at 70 by the time they are 18. Lot of people can go down hill fast and unexpectedly in their 60s and there is no backup if something happens to you. You also won't be fit and have the endurance a child deserves in their 7-15 stage when you should be getting them out and active.
There is also a real risk you will leave that child alone in the world in their early 20s as you reach mid 70s. One parent being much older is fine, but intentionally having only one older parent is selfish.
I'm inclined to agree, even as I respect the deep pull and call to parent.
I also want to bring up another point that no one has mentioned: children of old parents don't get to have relationships with grandparents.
In my family we have a number of kids born to 40+ parents. The loss of the grandparent relp (because dead, dementia) was really big even with parents who were super-engaged. The parent cannot make up for this. And despite trying hard, couldn't find older people who wanted to commit to that long-term relp with their kid.
The OP doesn't mention their own family or his relp with them. It's critical for their well-being that the child have a sturdy network of unconditional relationships, not just one aging parent.
If the child is a girl, its key that she have a trusted female 'mom' who can help her transition puberty with wellness. No matter how well intended, a man has not had this experience and cannot support the way another woman can. (and yes, the same goes for boys and single moms. and most of the ones I know are painfully aware of the effects of the lack of a good male role-model support for their son).
We were 36/38 and 42/44 when our kids were born. Both my parents are dead, but my kids still have relationships with their other grandparents (my stepfather, my MIL, her boyfriend, my FIL, and his wife). Okay, maybe the boyfriend and wife not so much. But the grandparents are in their late 70s and still going strong.
(Likewise, my father was 44 & 46 when my brother and I were born. I know LOTS of men who had kids in their late 40s/early 50s).
My grandparents (each set) had 30-40 grandchildren - do you think there were super close relationships with all of them? Well, my paternal grandparents family wasn't close, but regardless, my dad's parents were born in the early 1890s, so yeah, they died before I was born anyway. But I had decent relationships with my mom's parents - but not a super duper close one because: 30 grandchildren.
Also, you seem to be ignoring death and such...I have multiple friends and relatives who grew up with single parents (you know, a parent died in a pesky war and such)... they obviously turned out JUST FINE.
So, girls can't go through puberty without a mother? I'll have to tell all my older sisters that...their mother died when the oldest was 10...
-
Really unfair to the child, unless you are the pinnacle of health and fitness. You will be nearing or at 70 by the time they are 18. Lot of people can go down hill fast and unexpectedly in their 60s and there is no backup if something happens to you. You also won't be fit and have the endurance a child deserves in their 7-15 stage when you should be getting them out and active.
There is also a real risk you will leave that child alone in the world in their early 20s as you reach mid 70s. One parent being much older is fine, but intentionally having only one older parent is selfish.
I'm inclined to agree, even as I respect the deep pull and call to parent.
I also want to bring up another point that no one has mentioned: children of old parents don't get to have relationships with grandparents.
In my family we have a number of kids born to 40+ parents. The loss of the grandparent relp (because dead, dementia) was really big even with parents who were super-engaged. The parent cannot make up for this. And despite trying hard, couldn't find older people who wanted to commit to that long-term relp with their kid.
The OP doesn't mention their own family or his relp with them. It's critical for their well-being that the child have a sturdy network of unconditional relationships, not just one aging parent.
If the child is a girl, its key that she have a trusted female 'mom' who can help her transition puberty with wellness. No matter how well intended, a man has not had this experience and cannot support the way another woman can. (and yes, the same goes for boys and single moms. and most of the ones I know are painfully aware of the effects of the lack of a good male role-model support for their son).
What an ignorant post!
-
Really unfair to the child, unless you are the pinnacle of health and fitness. You will be nearing or at 70 by the time they are 18. Lot of people can go down hill fast and unexpectedly in their 60s and there is no backup if something happens to you. You also won't be fit and have the endurance a child deserves in their 7-15 stage when you should be getting them out and active.
There is also a real risk you will leave that child alone in the world in their early 20s as you reach mid 70s. One parent being much older is fine, but intentionally having only one older parent is selfish.
I'm inclined to agree, even as I respect the deep pull and call to parent.
I also want to bring up another point that no one has mentioned: children of old parents don't get to have relationships with grandparents.
In my family we have a number of kids born to 40+ parents. The loss of the grandparent relp (because dead, dementia) was really big even with parents who were super-engaged. The parent cannot make up for this. And despite trying hard, couldn't find older people who wanted to commit to that long-term relp with their kid.
The OP doesn't mention their own family or his relp with them. It's critical for their well-being that the child have a sturdy network of unconditional relationships, not just one aging parent.
If the child is a girl, its key that she have a trusted female 'mom' who can help her transition puberty with wellness. No matter how well intended, a man has not had this experience and cannot support the way another woman can. (and yes, the same goes for boys and single moms. and most of the ones I know are painfully aware of the effects of the lack of a good male role-model support for their son).
What an ignorant post!
Couldn’t agree more. Please let this thread die so I don’t have to deal with anyone else making cruel remarks, particularly after what I’ve shared. All this is doing is reopening horrific wounds. I’m only responding this last time to gracefully ask for no more responses and let this disappear, like my dream did so painfully, forever. Thank you to all of those with the compassion to offer support and private messages. Those of you who judge, may you never experience what I’ve lived through to feel the inappropriateness of your judgement.
-
@MrThatsDifferent Per your request, this is my last post here, but I wanted to let you know you can ask a mod to close commenting on a thread if you would like.
-
Really unfair to the child, unless you are the pinnacle of health and fitness. You will be nearing or at 70 by the time they are 18. Lot of people can go down hill fast and unexpectedly in their 60s and there is no backup if something happens to you. You also won't be fit and have the endurance a child deserves in their 7-15 stage when you should be getting them out and active.
There is also a real risk you will leave that child alone in the world in their early 20s as you reach mid 70s. One parent being much older is fine, but intentionally having only one older parent is selfish.
I'm inclined to agree, even as I respect the deep pull and call to parent.
I also want to bring up another point that no one has mentioned: children of old parents don't get to have relationships with grandparents.
In my family we have a number of kids born to 40+ parents. The loss of the grandparent relp (because dead, dementia) was really big even with parents who were super-engaged. The parent cannot make up for this. And despite trying hard, couldn't find older people who wanted to commit to that long-term relp with their kid.
The OP doesn't mention their own family or his relp with them. It's critical for their well-being that the child have a sturdy network of unconditional relationships, not just one aging parent.
If the child is a girl, its key that she have a trusted female 'mom' who can help her transition puberty with wellness. No matter how well intended, a man has not had this experience and cannot support the way another woman can. (and yes, the same goes for boys and single moms. and most of the ones I know are painfully aware of the effects of the lack of a good male role-model support for their son).
What an ignorant post!
Couldn’t agree more. Please let this thread die so I don’t have to deal with anyone else making cruel remarks, particularly after what I’ve shared. All this is doing is reopening horrific wounds. I’m only responding this last time to gracefully ask for no more responses and let this disappear, like my dream did so painfully, forever. Thank you to all of those with the compassion to offer support and private messages. Those of you who judge, may you never experience what I’ve lived through to feel the inappropriateness of your judgement.
. Seriously. Let's get out of the stone ages, shall we?
-
Where will the mom's egg come from? donor eggs are another 30k+
The entire surrogate cost could be $150-$200k.