Author Topic: Twitter  (Read 138794 times)

Michael in ABQ

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Re: Twitter
« Reply #950 on: November 18, 2023, 02:32:24 PM »
Just going to leave this here.

https://x.com/JGreenblattADL/status/1725652667119092100?s=20


You can now return to your regularly programmed echo chamber.

Sibley

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Re: Twitter
« Reply #951 on: November 18, 2023, 02:53:34 PM »
Until Elon Musk displays consistent actions and words that indicate he's a decent person, which would be contrary to everything else I've seen, I'm going to withhold judgement. And no, not an echo chamber. It's believing people when they tell you who they are.

seattlecyclone

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Re: Twitter
« Reply #952 on: November 18, 2023, 03:29:50 PM »
Definitely still widely used in India, including the Indian/Hindu expat community. Use it in contexts including celebrating or blessing a new car which can cause all sorts of weirdness in the USA.

Yep. I was a teaching assistant for computer science in grad school, we were doing a lesson on image processing, and my co-TA (from India) put in the Hindu swastika as one of the test images given out to the class. The image is seen as very inoffensive and even good in her culture, but in the West it just breaks peoples' brains when you use it. The image got a number of complaints, and the professor had to spend a few minutes explaining this cultural difference in his next lecture.

jinga nation

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Re: Twitter
« Reply #953 on: November 18, 2023, 03:53:59 PM »
Definitely still widely used in India, including the Indian/Hindu expat community. Use it in contexts including celebrating or blessing a new car which can cause all sorts of weirdness in the USA.

Yep. I was a teaching assistant for computer science in grad school, we were doing a lesson on image processing, and my co-TA (from India) put in the Hindu swastika as one of the test images given out to the class. The image is seen as very inoffensive and even good in her culture, but in the West it just breaks peoples' brains when you use it. The image got a number of complaints, and the professor had to spend a few minutes explaining this cultural difference in his next lecture.

That just brought back memories. In undergrad at a Florida public university, some of the Indian grad students (teaching assistants) would have a swastika sticker on a diary, or calculator, or on a backpack. This was late 90s to early 2000s. Major freakout by mostly white students. When the university admins sent a mass email out to the student body, the response by the student council was that incoming foreign students from India should be told to not display this symbol and assimilate. Thus accomodating the xenophobes.
Makes perfect sense as many Americans don't even know much of their country's history and cultures (many eliminated thru genocide on natives), so they'd struggle to comprehend foreign cultures.
The swastika has been a symbol in so many cultures, but now it is being proudly being worn by 'Murican Nazis. Recently outside the Wisconsin capitol: https://mastodon.social/@ParanoidFactoid

Back on topic: That’s just amazing by Musk. Best leadership at TwitX ever!
Look at all those Fortune100 companies, crème de la crème. He’s really worked hard to get noticed then dropped by them. So much winning, we’re really tired of it, as his buddy Trump likes to say.
Musk taking TwitX private has been a blessing to the Fediverse/Mastodon. We should cheer him on and persuade him that his awesome tactics are working great.
Wonder Linda Quackarino is going to deal with it this time. Bets on her quitting in the next week, month, by end of year?
Veritable dumpster fire continues to deliver.

maizefolk

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Re: Twitter
« Reply #954 on: November 18, 2023, 04:09:33 PM »
Definitely still widely used in India, including the Indian/Hindu expat community. Use it in contexts including celebrating or blessing a new car which can cause all sorts of weirdness in the USA.

Yep. I was a teaching assistant for computer science in grad school, we were doing a lesson on image processing, and my co-TA (from India) put in the Hindu swastika as one of the test images given out to the class. The image is seen as very inoffensive and even good in her culture, but in the West it just breaks peoples' brains when you use it. The image got a number of complaints, and the professor had to spend a few minutes explaining this cultural difference in his next lecture.

That just brought back memories. In undergrad at a Florida public university, some of the Indian grad students (teaching assistants) would have a swastika sticker on a diary, or calculator, or on a backpack. This was late 90s to early 2000s. Major freakout by mostly white students. When the university admins sent a mass email out to the student body, the response by the student council was that incoming foreign students from India should be told to not display this symbol and assimilate. Thus accomodating the xenophobes.
Makes perfect sense as many Americans don't even know much of their country's history and cultures (many eliminated thru genocide on natives), so they'd struggle to comprehend foreign cultures.

Continuing off topic, it can also be fascinating to talk to people who recently moved from the USA from India about historical events like World War II and see how this event that looms so large in US/European history lessons isn't covered in that much depth at all. Then wait to be asked about the India-Pakistan wars and stumble over how little you (if your education was anything like mine) actually know about even more recent major world events than world wor II that continue to shape the world and worldview of 1.8B people across India, Pakistan, and Bangladesh.

In talking to people who grew up in China my impression is that the way the history of the last century is taught features a more similar emphasis on the same major key events (although obviously with quite different perspectives).

sonofsven

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Re: Twitter
« Reply #955 on: November 18, 2023, 05:08:00 PM »
From Curb Your Enthusiasm: The episode where Larry David taught Greg (the flamboyant kid) how to make a swastika:

https://youtu.be/qYVK_OqyUzk?si=bT5-mpctKpk6wMof


GuitarStv

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Re: Twitter
« Reply #956 on: November 18, 2023, 07:33:08 PM »
Guess we know what the X is going to evolve into.

Bahahahahahaha

Just Joe

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Re: Twitter
« Reply #957 on: November 19, 2023, 10:30:28 AM »
Just going to leave this one here:

https://www.cnn.com/2023/11/15/media/elon-musk-antisemitism-white-people/index.html

Quote
An X post Wednesday afternoon said: “Jewish communties (sic) have been pushing the exact kind of dialectical hatred against whites that they claim to want people to stop using against them.” The post also referenced “hordes of minorities” flooding Western countries, a popular antisemitic conspiracy theory.

In response, Musk said: “You have said the actual truth.”

Musk isn't selling me any cars or spaceship rides when he talks.

Imagine the kind of utopia he plans to create on Mars  . . .  well away from pesky Earth laws about racism.

I fully support his relocation to Mars. I have zero problem with that idea. And he could avoid paying federal taxes that way - a topic important to every bizillionaire - right?

I hate it b/c Tesla and SpaceX - i.e. the people who work there - have accomplished some impressive things over the past decade or two. Shame they are associated with Musk.

Just Joe

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Re: Twitter
« Reply #958 on: November 19, 2023, 10:35:51 AM »
At least now we know what Musk and Kanye were bonding over when they were mutually masturbating each other all over social media.

I read that around that time was when Kanye really got vocally into antisemitism and Jewish conspiracies and was going on pro Hitler at Adidas meetings.

So you know that's exactly the "genius" shit that they were talking about at the time.

Surely Kayne knows that Hitler would have sent Kayne to his doom had they been alive in the same time and place?

Villanelle

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Re: Twitter
« Reply #959 on: November 19, 2023, 11:11:32 AM »
At least now we know what Musk and Kanye were bonding over when they were mutually masturbating each other all over social media.

I read that around that time was when Kanye really got vocally into antisemitism and Jewish conspiracies and was going on pro Hitler at Adidas meetings.

So you know that's exactly the "genius" shit that they were talking about at the time.

Surely Kayne knows that Hitler would have sent Kayne to his doom had they been alive in the same time and place?

Hitler might even have pushed a nasty fate for Musk. Plenty of children with autism ended up in the "special children's wards", where they were murdered.  I'm not sure where Aspergers would have ended up on that scale, but it seems entirely plausible that both Ye and Xusk would have ended up murdered at the hands of Hitler and his policies. 

MrGreen

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Re: Twitter
« Reply #960 on: November 19, 2023, 05:58:13 PM »
At least now we know what Musk and Kanye were bonding over when they were mutually masturbating each other all over social media.

I read that around that time was when Kanye really got vocally into antisemitism and Jewish conspiracies and was going on pro Hitler at Adidas meetings.

So you know that's exactly the "genius" shit that they were talking about at the time.

Surely Kayne knows that Hitler would have sent Kayne to his doom had they been alive in the same time and place?

Hitler might even have pushed a nasty fate for Musk. Plenty of children with autism ended up in the "special children's wards", where they were murdered.  I'm not sure where Aspergers would have ended up on that scale, but it seems entirely plausible that both Ye and Xusk would have ended up murdered at the hands of Hitler and his policies.
Real LeopardsAteMyFace shit.

Telecaster

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Re: Twitter
« Reply #961 on: November 19, 2023, 08:46:19 PM »
Big advertisers jumping ship after Musk's anti-Semitism alignment. Could this be the final nail in the coffin?

I hate to be cynical, but I bet this is temporary until the storm blows over. 

Just Joe

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Re: Twitter
« Reply #962 on: November 20, 2023, 07:50:19 AM »
I am surprised that Twitter hasn't collapsed already. MySpace disintegrated pretty quickly as I recall when Facebook became a thing. But yeah, you're probably right, everyone will flood back in once the storm has passed.

maizefolk

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Re: Twitter
« Reply #963 on: November 20, 2023, 04:57:03 PM »
I am surprised that Twitter hasn't collapsed already. MySpace disintegrated pretty quickly as I recall when Facebook became a thing. But yeah, you're probably right, everyone will flood back in once the storm has passed.

Myspace didn't collapse because people got mad at Tom* or because the myspace experience got noticeably worse. It collapsed because something generally better and more desirable that did the exact same job (facebook) came along. Even if "better" just meant less customizable so the pages looked cleaner, and associated originally with being a university student and therefore somehow vaguely linked to having higher social status.

So far there isn't a twitter alternative that is picking up lots of steam, so there isn't yet a clear facebook to twitter's myspace. Maybe BlueSky or Threads will get there someday?

*Remember being a friend of Tom? Perhaps only for those of us of a certain age.

DeepEllumStache

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Re: Twitter
« Reply #964 on: November 20, 2023, 07:00:08 PM »
*Remember being a friend of Tom? Perhaps only for those of us of a certain age.

Tom was the first friend of many.

Metalcat

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Re: Twitter
« Reply #965 on: November 24, 2023, 11:17:46 AM »
I just wanted to share that while I was browsing Black Friday deals for comfy bras, I noted that the new "X" logo happens to be nearly identical to the logo for the most well known period panty company. Apparently Knix trademarked a bunch of similar X symbols.

https://www.google.com/search?q=knix+logo&client=ms-android-rogers-ca-rvc3&sca_esv=585104753&tbm=isch&prmd=isvn&sxsrf=AM9HkKlkgjRiR4RsM3WKRhXOzaVhe4I15A:1700849787389&source=lnms&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwit0pKbn92CAxW4FVkFHdFTDkwQ_AUoAXoECAIQAQ&biw=412&bih=759&dpr=2.63#imgrc=m-TvQJN20NQ2BM


Michael in ABQ

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Re: Twitter
« Reply #966 on: November 24, 2023, 12:07:50 PM »
I just wanted to share that while I was browsing Black Friday deals for comfy bras, I noted that the new "X" logo happens to be nearly identical to the logo for the most well known period panty company. Apparently Knix trademarked a bunch of similar X symbols.

https://www.google.com/search?q=knix+logo&client=ms-android-rogers-ca-rvc3&sca_esv=585104753&tbm=isch&prmd=isvn&sxsrf=AM9HkKlkgjRiR4RsM3WKRhXOzaVhe4I15A:1700849787389&source=lnms&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwit0pKbn92CAxW4FVkFHdFTDkwQ_AUoAXoECAIQAQ&biw=412&bih=759&dpr=2.63#imgrc=m-TvQJN20NQ2BM

Probably a non-issue since trademarks are for specific types of products or services. For example, there is a trademark for the word Nike from a Swedish company for MECHANICAL AND HYDRAULIC LIFTING JACKS, HYDRAULIC PISTONS, HYDRAULIC PRESSES, HAND-DRIVEN AND MOTOR-DRIVEN HIGH PRESSURE PUMPS because it's in a completely different industry/product from Nike apparel/athletic equipment and there's no reasonable risk of consumers mistaking the two.

Knix has trademarks for International Class 25 which includes: Body shapers; Hosiery; Leggings; Leotards; Lingerie; Underwear (none of the aforesaid relating to or promoting the sport of basketball) no exactly the type of products that could be confused for a social media company.

LennStar

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Re: Twitter
« Reply #967 on: November 24, 2023, 01:58:02 PM »
I just wanted to share that while I was browsing Black Friday deals for comfy bras, I noted that the new "X" logo happens to be nearly identical to the logo for the most well known period panty company. Apparently Knix trademarked a bunch of similar X symbols.

https://www.google.com/search?q=knix+logo&client=ms-android-rogers-ca-rvc3&sca_esv=585104753&tbm=isch&prmd=isvn&sxsrf=AM9HkKlkgjRiR4RsM3WKRhXOzaVhe4I15A:1700849787389&source=lnms&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwit0pKbn92CAxW4FVkFHdFTDkwQ_AUoAXoECAIQAQ&biw=412&bih=759&dpr=2.63#imgrc=m-TvQJN20NQ2BM

Probably a non-issue since trademarks are for specific types of products or services. For example, there is a trademark for the word Nike from a Swedish company for MECHANICAL AND HYDRAULIC LIFTING JACKS, HYDRAULIC PISTONS, HYDRAULIC PRESSES, HAND-DRIVEN AND MOTOR-DRIVEN HIGH PRESSURE PUMPS because it's in a completely different industry/product from Nike apparel/athletic equipment and there's no reasonable risk of consumers mistaking the two.

Knix has trademarks for International Class 25 which includes: Body shapers; Hosiery; Leggings; Leotards; Lingerie; Underwear (none of the aforesaid relating to or promoting the sport of basketball) no exactly the type of products that could be confused for a social media company.
Might get interesting when X becomes the payment processor for everything and seller for everything.

Metalcat

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Re: Twitter
« Reply #968 on: November 24, 2023, 02:01:09 PM »
I just wanted to share that while I was browsing Black Friday deals for comfy bras, I noted that the new "X" logo happens to be nearly identical to the logo for the most well known period panty company. Apparently Knix trademarked a bunch of similar X symbols.

https://www.google.com/search?q=knix+logo&client=ms-android-rogers-ca-rvc3&sca_esv=585104753&tbm=isch&prmd=isvn&sxsrf=AM9HkKlkgjRiR4RsM3WKRhXOzaVhe4I15A:1700849787389&source=lnms&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwit0pKbn92CAxW4FVkFHdFTDkwQ_AUoAXoECAIQAQ&biw=412&bih=759&dpr=2.63#imgrc=m-TvQJN20NQ2BM

Probably a non-issue since trademarks are for specific types of products or services. For example, there is a trademark for the word Nike from a Swedish company for MECHANICAL AND HYDRAULIC LIFTING JACKS, HYDRAULIC PISTONS, HYDRAULIC PRESSES, HAND-DRIVEN AND MOTOR-DRIVEN HIGH PRESSURE PUMPS because it's in a completely different industry/product from Nike apparel/athletic equipment and there's no reasonable risk of consumers mistaking the two.

Knix has trademarks for International Class 25 which includes: Body shapers; Hosiery; Leggings; Leotards; Lingerie; Underwear (none of the aforesaid relating to or promoting the sport of basketball) no exactly the type of products that could be confused for a social media company.

That wasn't really my point.

I thought it was funny that he chose a symbol that looks a hell of a lot like a period panty brand. It just made me chuckle.

Now every time I see the X logo, I'm doing to think of menstruation.

mspym

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Re: Twitter
« Reply #969 on: November 24, 2023, 06:39:45 PM »
I just wanted to share that while I was browsing Black Friday deals for comfy bras, I noted that the new "X" logo happens to be nearly identical to the logo for the most well known period panty company. Apparently Knix trademarked a bunch of similar X symbols.

https://www.google.com/search?q=knix+logo&client=ms-android-rogers-ca-rvc3&sca_esv=585104753&tbm=isch&prmd=isvn&sxsrf=AM9HkKlkgjRiR4RsM3WKRhXOzaVhe4I15A:1700849787389&source=lnms&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwit0pKbn92CAxW4FVkFHdFTDkwQ_AUoAXoECAIQAQ&biw=412&bih=759&dpr=2.63#imgrc=m-TvQJN20NQ2BM

Probably a non-issue since trademarks are for specific types of products or services. For example, there is a trademark for the word Nike from a Swedish company for MECHANICAL AND HYDRAULIC LIFTING JACKS, HYDRAULIC PISTONS, HYDRAULIC PRESSES, HAND-DRIVEN AND MOTOR-DRIVEN HIGH PRESSURE PUMPS because it's in a completely different industry/product from Nike apparel/athletic equipment and there's no reasonable risk of consumers mistaking the two.

Knix has trademarks for International Class 25 which includes: Body shapers; Hosiery; Leggings; Leotards; Lingerie; Underwear (none of the aforesaid relating to or promoting the sport of basketball) no exactly the type of products that could be confused for a social media company.

That wasn't really my point.

I thought it was funny that he chose a symbol that looks a hell of a lot like a period panty brand. It just made me chuckle.

Now every time I see the X logo, I'm doing to think of menstruation.
It’s bleeding edge technology…


I’ll show myself out

LennStar

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Re: Twitter
« Reply #970 on: November 25, 2023, 12:43:20 AM »
Sweat and Blood for the Future!

I'll go woth you.

MrGreen

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Re: Twitter
« Reply #971 on: November 29, 2023, 08:34:42 PM »
Today, Elon told his advertisers to go fuck themselves, live on CNBC. Twice! Afterwards, the host is holding the bridge of his nose like.....

He really knows how to up the ante!
« Last Edit: November 29, 2023, 08:38:36 PM by Mr. Green »

FireLane

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Re: Twitter
« Reply #972 on: November 29, 2023, 08:36:06 PM »
I was just about to post the same thing. I'm sure this is some kind of eleven-dimensional chess from a big-brain business genius, right?

https://www.theverge.com/2023/11/29/23981928/elon-musk-ad-boycott-go-fuck-yourself-destroy-x

Quote
“I hope they stop. Don’t advertise,” Musk told interviewer Andrew Ross Sorkin. “If somebody is going to try to blackmail me with advertising, blackmail me with money, go fuck yourself. Go fuck yourself. Is that clear? I hope it is.” He singled out Disney CEO Bob Iger, who discussed not wanting Disney to be affiliated with Musk while on stage earlier in the day. “Hey Bob, if you’re in the audience.”

At this point, I half-believe Musk has given up any hope of turning Twitter around, and he's just entertaining himself by seeing how much crazy shit he can pull before the company burns to the ground.

Travis

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Re: Twitter
« Reply #973 on: November 29, 2023, 08:41:33 PM »
Today, Elon told his advertisers to go fuck themselves, live on CNBC. Twice! You can see the host holding the bridge of his nose right after like.....

https://twitter.com/iFightForKids/status/1729993619883315271

He really knows how to up the ante!

And because he's always looking to outdo himself:

https://vxtwitter.com/jd_durkin/status/1729989951998083569

MrGreen

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Re: Twitter
« Reply #974 on: November 29, 2023, 09:08:20 PM »
Today, Elon told his advertisers to go fuck themselves, live on CNBC. Twice! You can see the host holding the bridge of his nose right after like.....

https://twitter.com/iFightForKids/status/1729993619883315271

He really knows how to up the ante!

And because he's always looking to outdo himself:

https://vxtwitter.com/jd_durkin/status/1729989951998083569
I think he's well beyond the "cocaine will help!" stage.

Glenstache

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Re: Twitter
« Reply #975 on: November 29, 2023, 09:58:10 PM »
I have great respect for what his employees have been able to do in spite of him.

Metalcat

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Re: Twitter
« Reply #976 on: November 30, 2023, 07:00:23 AM »
I was just about to post the same thing. I'm sure this is some kind of eleven-dimensional chess from a big-brain business genius, right?

https://www.theverge.com/2023/11/29/23981928/elon-musk-ad-boycott-go-fuck-yourself-destroy-x

Quote
“I hope they stop. Don’t advertise,” Musk told interviewer Andrew Ross Sorkin. “If somebody is going to try to blackmail me with advertising, blackmail me with money, go fuck yourself. Go fuck yourself. Is that clear? I hope it is.” He singled out Disney CEO Bob Iger, who discussed not wanting Disney to be affiliated with Musk while on stage earlier in the day. “Hey Bob, if you’re in the audience.”

At this point, I half-believe Musk has given up any hope of turning Twitter around, and he's just entertaining himself by seeing how much crazy shit he can pull before the company burns to the ground.

I don't know about that.

I've been wanting to understand Musk, so I've been reading quite a bit about his other businesses and found a lot of insight in The Founders, which is a detailed account of the original X.com and PayPal and exactly the steps involved.

I've learned A LOT about Musk's decision making process, and more importantly, how his personality became solidified by the exceptional events of his 20s. I firmly believe he would be a very different person had his major successes occured later in life, but he received ENORMOUS positive reinforcement for his early 20s hubris and understanding that has really helped me grasp all of his behaviours better.

His entire success has been founded on him interpreting all criticism as evidence of his own superior intelligence. He sees all business conventions and rules as opportunities for more efficiency. This means that the more his behaviour at Twitter looks like failure on the outside, the more he will believe he's on the right track and getting closer to world-changing breakthroughs.

However, this is a VERY different situation than he's used to, and I'm not convinced the methods he sees as "superior" can work in this context because key ingredients are missing.

It's quite easy to look at banking, cars, and space industries and see obvious inefficiencies and a cumbersome resistance to innovation. He identified these 3 industries as targets in his early 20s, it's not like he had success with PayPal and then along the way discovered other opportunities, no, these were targets from essentially Day 1 of his entrepreneurial career.

The thing is, other than having the very valid idea that these industries were bloated and slow and that they could be competed with, he didn't really have a lot of ideas. His original X.com idea never worked, neither X.com nor Confinity even came up with e-payments as a business model, they both kind of stumbled ass-backwards into them, ended up in competition, and then ended up merged.

That's not uncommon, that's how a lot of businesses succeed, without any clear notion of an idea to begin with.

But Musk's various businesses had a very clear mission: innovate an existing dinosaur industry. That's the kind of radical thing that attracts genius talent, especially with a cult of personality around Musk.

That's the 4D chess, Musk would use his spectacular hubris to identify obvious inefficiencies in bloated, old industries, and have unwavering arrogant faith in how own superiority to do a better job, and then a dedicated team of nerds would follow him and generate the actual ideas to innovate under his relentless pressure to break rules and conventions.

That's good 4D chess. He actually needs the spectacular ego to drive his will to improve systems. He has to see all existing rules as stupid and breakable. He has to see all criticism as evidence that others are stupid. As long as he has an army of dedicated nerds that he can push to the very limits of their capacity to generate fucking brilliant solutions, his "flaws" are what drive his success.

Here's the problem though, what major issue did Twitter have?

His targeting of Twitter wasn't because he saw a system that should be improved, his problem with Twitter was that he was addicted to it and he took ideological issue with it and didn't like the way it made him feel. As many people have written, it's not even believed that he actually wanted to buy it, he just had a moment where he wanted to swing his massive economic schlong at it because he could. He does that.

But aside from not liking what Twitter was censoring, unlike banks, cars, and space, what is the big failure to innovate that Twitter was dragging on?? What is the dumbfuck obvious problem to solve that is only not being solved because no one is arrogant enough to believe that they can take on the establishment?

Also, why would Musk buy Twitter to challenge it? That isn't the Musky way. His strategy would normally be to create a competitor and do the same thing but better and leaner. Which actually could have been done. He could have easily harnessed the right wing and built a whole new Twitter from the ground up with a team of true-believer Libertarian software geniuses, giving them stock options and driving them to work 20 hours a day. And it would have cost a hell of a lot less than 40B.

But that's not what he did.

He's used to believing that he can build a lighter, faster plane, and breaking all of the rules to do so by surrounding himself with people determined to build a lighter, faster plane and willing to break rules and laws to get it done. But that's a VERY different process that taking over a plane and trying to reengineer it while it's flying with its existing staff who are conditioned to follow rules and laws, and who expect to see their families at least once a day.

So I actually understand the strategy. I get why he's okay losing staff, why he takes every insult along the way as evidence that he's doing things right. But what I don't see is how his approach works without the army of true believer nerds that he's used to.

What is the mission? Who is going to believe in it? Who is going to actually grind, working until 4am every day, getting to the state of delirium where all common sense disappears and increasingly unhinged, but occasionally fucking brilliant ideas are constantly being generated?

The 4D chess is his ability to see inefficiency, his profound arrogance to believe that he can fix it, his absolute resistance to criticism, his lack of fear of failure, and his endless source of genius ideas to pick from. All he's ever had to do was be able to identify good and bad ideas and lack the fear, humility, and "common sense" to question whether he really can outdo the big players.

But how does that approach work when there isn't a clear problem to fix and there isn't an army of true believer geniuses to perpetually churn innovative ideas?

And how does that approach work with 40B on the line?

That's where I really get stuck. I can grasp the pressure of startups, of funding rounds, runways of cash running out, and IPOs. I get the stakes there. But what does this 40B actually mean for Musk? That's what I can't grasp.

He's not afraid of failure. If Twitter totally collapses, he can blame it on Twitter being flawed from the beginning and external forces like the mysterious Jews targeting him because he's just too awesome and they can't handle it. This isn't his baby, this is a bad actor he tried to save the world from. Whether he transforms it or tanks it, he succeeds either way.

But what does losing 40B even mean to him? I can't wrap my mind around what those stakes actually mean for someone in his position. 

Ultimately though, reading about early X.com in particular has given me a lot of clarity that a lot of this behaviour isn't him being reactive or having a meltdown, this is all systematically part of what has made him successful in the past. He's doing exactly what he's been conditioned to do. It is very specifically the more unhinged parts of his personality that have allowed him to be so successful.

But does any of it work with Twitter? I'm not sure.

GuitarStv

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Re: Twitter
« Reply #977 on: November 30, 2023, 08:14:50 AM »
Sounds plausible.

ChpBstrd

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Re: Twitter
« Reply #978 on: November 30, 2023, 08:25:46 AM »
Great summary @Metalcat . Feel like I learned some things there!

I'll add that when we ask ourselves "who put the tonedeaf people with narcissistic personality disorder in charge?" we have our answer here. Only such people could be willing to attempt the innovation and disruption of ancient, established systems. The rest of us are too timid, afraid of failure, sensitive to criticism, and accepting of the status quo to even contemplate such moves. The rest of us also care too much about things like family, enjoying life, etc. to put in the work.

What does $40B mean to someone like Musk? IDK. Someone who will never be poor, or even not-rich, thinks about such things differently than consumerist middle class people who seek the sensation of luxury.

At some level, wealthy people realize that money only represents the ability to make other people work for your benefit. There are other ways to make people work for your benefit, such as by making yourself their leader or by being highly persuasive. These three things - money, power, and persuasiveness - are fungible in the sense that with any one you can obtain more of the other. They are the same currency, in terms of manipulation of other people.

Musk's acquisition of Xitter represents an exchange of money for persuasiveness. By controlling media, he controls part of the narrative, forcing people with power to share that power with him or else he'll downgrade all their campaign tweets. That's what Xitter is all about - power. It's not an investment like poorer people think of investments. Musk isn't hoping to earn enough from Xitter to fund his 401fuckingK. He is obtaining a form of power that allows him to shape the behavior of everyone else.

Regarding the question of the nerd armies' motivation? I think lotto-ticket stock options have a lot to do with it. You work 100 hours a week for a couple of years and then cash out and become a millionaire. There's also a sense that even if one's startups don't work out, one moves on with one's career to the next opportunity with the contacts made in the previous one. Play that game often enough and you eventually get filthy rich on the IPO that does work out.

But Musk doesn't seem to be playing that game with Xitter. Probably the people working there are just earning a salary, with steadily attrition to more interesting startups. Musk doesn't need Xitter to be innovative to perform its persuasive function, he just needs to own and control it. The nerds only need to be smart enough to keep what was already built up and running. Doesn't take a genius to sell a checkmark or whatever.

Metalcat

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Re: Twitter
« Reply #979 on: November 30, 2023, 09:11:06 AM »
Great summary @Metalcat . Feel like I learned some things there!

I'll add that when we ask ourselves "who put the tonedeaf people with narcissistic personality disorder in charge?" we have our answer here. Only such people could be willing to attempt the innovation and disruption of ancient, established systems. The rest of us are too timid, afraid of failure, sensitive to criticism, and accepting of the status quo to even contemplate such moves. The rest of us also care too much about things like family, enjoying life, etc. to put in the work.

What does $40B mean to someone like Musk? IDK. Someone who will never be poor, or even not-rich, thinks about such things differently than consumerist middle class people who seek the sensation of luxury.

At some level, wealthy people realize that money only represents the ability to make other people work for your benefit. There are other ways to make people work for your benefit, such as by making yourself their leader or by being highly persuasive. These three things - money, power, and persuasiveness - are fungible in the sense that with any one you can obtain more of the other. They are the same currency, in terms of manipulation of other people.

Musk's acquisition of Xitter represents an exchange of money for persuasiveness. By controlling media, he controls part of the narrative, forcing people with power to share that power with him or else he'll downgrade all their campaign tweets. That's what Xitter is all about - power. It's not an investment like poorer people think of investments. Musk isn't hoping to earn enough from Xitter to fund his 401fuckingK. He is obtaining a form of power that allows him to shape the behavior of everyone else.

Regarding the question of the nerd armies' motivation? I think lotto-ticket stock options have a lot to do with it. You work 100 hours a week for a couple of years and then cash out and become a millionaire. There's also a sense that even if one's startups don't work out, one moves on with one's career to the next opportunity with the contacts made in the previous one. Play that game often enough and you eventually get filthy rich on the IPO that does work out.

But Musk doesn't seem to be playing that game with Xitter. Probably the people working there are just earning a salary, with steadily attrition to more interesting startups. Musk doesn't need Xitter to be innovative to perform its persuasive function, he just needs to own and control it. The nerds only need to be smart enough to keep what was already built up and running. Doesn't take a genius to sell a checkmark or whatever.

That's my question.

How does his Twitter play work without the army of true believer geniuses?

Stock options aren't a motivator, faith in Musk isn't a motivator, and there is no clear cause to fight. He just has an army of Twitter employees who have never worked the way that Musk expects them to.
 
It's really, really, really fucking hard to fundamentally alter the work culture of a large company from the top.

lemonlyman

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Re: Twitter
« Reply #980 on: November 30, 2023, 09:11:09 AM »
I think he didn't make a Twitter competitor because he actually liked Twitter's product. He's used it often for over 10 years. There weren't good electric cars, commercial rockets, electronic banking, online mapping, etc. when he started or bought into those companies. He's given X and aspirational mission (free speech) to motivate employees like his other companies and adds features like community notes, spaces, content provider payments, an edit button (ha) and different content types. The aspirational mission + leaner execution + better design is his trademark. But it's also an AI data treasure trove.

So I don't think 40b means much to him at all, but I also think he's being facetious when he talks about X failing and the month-to-month deathwatch since last year has been clearly wrong. He's going to build products off of X and use X for other products and services. There's already many new services in the pipe from X. I'm sure his promise to employees is that it'll go public again eventually and they'll get their big payout. Like millionaire Tesla line workers.

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Re: Twitter
« Reply #981 on: November 30, 2023, 09:12:37 AM »
I think he didn't make a Twitter competitor because he actually liked Twitter's product. He's used it often for over 10 years. There weren't good electric cars, commercial rockets, electronic banking, online mapping, etc. when he started or bought into those companies. He's given X and aspirational mission (free speech) to motivate employees like his other companies and adds features like community notes, spaces, content provider payments, an edit button (ha) and different content types. The aspirational mission + leaner execution + better design is his trademark. But it's also an AI data treasure trove.

So I don't think 40b means much to him at all, but I also think he's being facetious when he talks about X failing and the month-to-month deathwatch since last year has been clearly wrong. He's going to build products off of X and use X for other products and services. There's already many new services in the pipe from X. I'm sure his promise to employees is that it'll go public again eventually and they'll get their big payout. Like millionaire Tesla line workers.

Sure, but it's a lot harder to make stock holders rich when the company was already worth a lot to begin with.

lemonlyman

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Re: Twitter
« Reply #982 on: November 30, 2023, 09:19:46 AM »
I think he didn't make a Twitter competitor because he actually liked Twitter's product. He's used it often for over 10 years. There weren't good electric cars, commercial rockets, electronic banking, online mapping, etc. when he started or bought into those companies. He's given X and aspirational mission (free speech) to motivate employees like his other companies and adds features like community notes, spaces, content provider payments, an edit button (ha) and different content types. The aspirational mission + leaner execution + better design is his trademark. But it's also an AI data treasure trove.

So I don't think 40b means much to him at all, but I also think he's being facetious when he talks about X failing and the month-to-month deathwatch since last year has been clearly wrong. He's going to build products off of X and use X for other products and services. There's already many new services in the pipe from X. I'm sure his promise to employees is that it'll go public again eventually and they'll get their big payout. Like millionaire Tesla line workers.

Sure, but it's a lot harder to make stock holders rich when the company was already worth a lot to begin with.

It's also a job. We don't need to overcomplicate that there are conscientious people who work really hard and really well after getting recruited. Since he only kept 20% of Twitter's staff, X is probably already a high % of those types.

To your point, yeah, the Twitter employee millionaires have likely already been made unless there’s some AI revenue boom that 20x that valuation.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2023, 09:35:10 AM by lemonlyman »

LennStar

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Re: Twitter
« Reply #983 on: November 30, 2023, 10:58:04 AM »
I can't see that happening. There are 350 million daily users. Even if he somehow manages to convince 10% of them to pay him 100 dollar a year, that's still not the income that amounts to 40bn, not to mention Twitters high price. It was totally overvalued.

More interesting is the result on the general social media market. Now that Elon has done it, others are jumping on the "pay to not see ads" with warying degrees of ads not shown (and still selling your data).

Since ad revenue will always be a very precarious income, maybe that is what they all will look like in 2 years, which would further entrech the bubbles, because you are not going to sign on to more than one pay-to-use net. Though this could always mean more people will here about ad blockers. Which means googles ad blocker work around browser...


ChpBstrd

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Re: Twitter
« Reply #984 on: November 30, 2023, 11:05:14 AM »
I can't see that happening. There are 350 million daily users. Even if he somehow manages to convince 10% of them to pay him 100 dollar a year, that's still not the income that amounts to 40bn, not to mention Twitters high price. It was totally overvalued.
It starts to make sense when you think of it as a product, not an investment. Elon purchased for himself the ability to control the "digital town square", not the ability to earn a decent return on his money. Control of Xitter gives Musk political power over his users. He can sway public opinion with quiet tweaks to the algorithms. He can overthrow governments, direct policy choices, and arouse angry mobs at anyone who dare oppose him.

It's digital serfdom, where the nobility can make the peasants fight on their behalf and do all sorts of other things against their interests.

When you invest in power, you earn a return in a way totally different than middle class investing objectives.

Metalcat

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Re: Twitter
« Reply #985 on: November 30, 2023, 11:43:18 AM »
I think he didn't make a Twitter competitor because he actually liked Twitter's product. He's used it often for over 10 years. There weren't good electric cars, commercial rockets, electronic banking, online mapping, etc. when he started or bought into those companies. He's given X and aspirational mission (free speech) to motivate employees like his other companies and adds features like community notes, spaces, content provider payments, an edit button (ha) and different content types. The aspirational mission + leaner execution + better design is his trademark. But it's also an AI data treasure trove.

So I don't think 40b means much to him at all, but I also think he's being facetious when he talks about X failing and the month-to-month deathwatch since last year has been clearly wrong. He's going to build products off of X and use X for other products and services. There's already many new services in the pipe from X. I'm sure his promise to employees is that it'll go public again eventually and they'll get their big payout. Like millionaire Tesla line workers.

Sure, but it's a lot harder to make stock holders rich when the company was already worth a lot to begin with.

It's also a job. We don't need to overcomplicate that there are conscientious people who work really hard and really well after getting recruited. Since he only kept 20% of Twitter's staff, X is probably already a high % of those types.

To your point, yeah, the Twitter employee millionaires have likely already been made unless there’s some AI revenue boom that 20x that valuation.

Sure, but there is a difference between having a great staff of talented people and expecting them to do their jobs that they were hired for really well vs what Musk thinks is reasonable to put his teams through.

It's not a question of whether the talent is there, it's a question of what they will put up with from him.

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Re: Twitter
« Reply #986 on: November 30, 2023, 01:02:30 PM »
I can't see that happening. There are 350 million daily users. Even if he somehow manages to convince 10% of them to pay him 100 dollar a year, that's still not the income that amounts to 40bn, not to mention Twitters high price. It was totally overvalued.
It starts to make sense when you think of it as a product, not an investment. Elon purchased for himself the ability to control the "digital town square", not the ability to earn a decent return on his money. Control of Xitter gives Musk political power over his users. He can sway public opinion with quiet tweaks to the algorithms. He can overthrow governments, direct policy choices, and arouse angry mobs at anyone who dare oppose him.

It's digital serfdom, where the nobility can make the peasants fight on their behalf and do all sorts of other things against their interests.

When you invest in power, you earn a return in a way totally different than middle class investing objectives.

I would agree with this.

He's not going to get the valuation stratospheric again - at this point he's probably just trying to avoid X being just a liability.

Breaking even or making some profit is all he needs to make X not look like a billionaire's version of a self-published something. 

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Re: Twitter
« Reply #987 on: December 01, 2023, 07:32:08 AM »
I can't see that happening. There are 350 million daily users. Even if he somehow manages to convince 10% of them to pay him 100 dollar a year, that's still not the income that amounts to 40bn, not to mention Twitters high price. It was totally overvalued.
It starts to make sense when you think of it as a product, not an investment. Elon purchased for himself the ability to control the "digital town square", not the ability to earn a decent return on his money. Control of Xitter gives Musk political power over his users. He can sway public opinion with quiet tweaks to the algorithms. He can overthrow governments, direct policy choices, and arouse angry mobs at anyone who dare oppose him.

It's digital serfdom, where the nobility can make the peasants fight on their behalf and do all sorts of other things against their interests.

When you invest in power, you earn a return in a way totally different than middle class investing objectives.

If his plan is to own the town square he's doing it wrong. This has to be subtle: Buy the place, make small changes that add up over time. The goal is to keep your audience and the public's trust, while influencing behind the scenes.

The most likely explanation for Musk's erratic behavior is his ketamine use.

FINate

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Re: Twitter
« Reply #988 on: December 01, 2023, 07:58:47 AM »
Great quote in the WSJ today:

Quote
Musk’s comments seem at odds with his stated commitment to free speech, said Neal Thurman, co-founder of the nonprofit industry group Brand Safety Institute.

“He appears to be addressing the situation as if there is a presumption that advertisers should be spending on X. As if they have an obligation to fund it through their ad budgets,” Thurman said. “His indignant response to his customers voting with their wallets in response to his approach is ironic from someone who claims to be a free speech, free market libertarian. This is what free markets do.”

GuitarStv

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Re: Twitter
« Reply #989 on: December 01, 2023, 09:01:15 AM »
Musk has never cared about free speech, only freedom for his speech.  He has never cared about free markets - only freedom from regulation for his products in the market.  He is not interested in liberty beyond what directly impacts himself.

Once you realize that, Musk's comments make perfect sense.

ChpBstrd

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Re: Twitter
« Reply #990 on: December 01, 2023, 09:02:26 AM »
Great quote in the WSJ today:

Quote
Musk’s comments seem at odds with his stated commitment to free speech, said Neal Thurman, co-founder of the nonprofit industry group Brand Safety Institute.

“He appears to be addressing the situation as if there is a presumption that advertisers should be spending on X. As if they have an obligation to fund it through their ad budgets,” Thurman said. “His indignant response to his customers voting with their wallets in response to his approach is ironic from someone who claims to be a free speech, free market libertarian. This is what free markets do.”
Musk has never cared about free speech, only freedom for his speech.  He has never cared about free markets - only freedom from regulation for his products in the market.  He is not interested in liberty beyond what directly impacts himself.

Once you realize that, Musk's comments make perfect sense.
It doesn't matter if Elon or anyone else is a hypocrite. We're all hypocrites. Doesn't change a thing.

What matters is whether enough people think that it matters, because then they will sit back and do nothing, expecting the contradictions or nonsense reasoning to unravel the problem on their own.

Donald Trump should have taught us that it doesn't matter. He can be philosophically incoherent in a thousand ways and it only helps him. People don't run from hypocrisy, they embrace it because it gives them license to live more Id-centric lives and suppress their own troubling thoughts.

Musk is a politician too, and has moved into a position to pull the strings on the supply of information like the Soviet politiburo. When the bros rally as a tribe to defend his "free speech" they relieve themselves of a certain intellectual burden. Read Erich Fromm to understand why.

FireLane

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Re: Twitter
« Reply #991 on: December 01, 2023, 09:48:23 AM »
https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2023/12/xs-yaccarino-calls-musk-candid-and-profound-after-go-f-yourself-tirade/

Quote
X CEO Linda Yaccarino called owner Elon Musk "candid and profound" in a memo to staff addressing the public interview in which Musk told advertisers to "go fuck yourself."

"Elon's interview was candid and profound," Yaccarino wrote in a memo to employees of X (formerly Twitter) yesterday. "He shared an unmatched and completely unvarnished perspective and vision for the future. If you haven't watched it, please take the time to absorb the magnitude and importance of what we're all a part of."

Whatever he's paying this woman in exchange for her dignity, it's not enough.

Metalcat

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Re: Twitter
« Reply #992 on: December 01, 2023, 10:07:25 AM »
Great quote in the WSJ today:

Quote
Musk’s comments seem at odds with his stated commitment to free speech, said Neal Thurman, co-founder of the nonprofit industry group Brand Safety Institute.

“He appears to be addressing the situation as if there is a presumption that advertisers should be spending on X. As if they have an obligation to fund it through their ad budgets,” Thurman said. “His indignant response to his customers voting with their wallets in response to his approach is ironic from someone who claims to be a free speech, free market libertarian. This is what free markets do.”

There is a version of reality where this is all intentional.

If there is a purposeful lean into alt-right, then it was always a given that advertisers would bail eventually, and the very thing driving them away also creates the PR opportunity to promote a staunchly antisemitic/conspiracy narrative, further leaning into the alt right.

That could be the "inefficiency" in the established systems. Until now, all of the biggest players have at least ostensibly tried to contain the explosive global alt right community, and no big companies have dared to make a shift to directly market to them...yet.

The play could be that Twitter, the great censor-in-chief was always meant to be destroyed, the advertisers were always meant to be lost, and the alt-right, antisemitic, conspiracy folks were always meant to be given a legitimate, centralized space with very smart people figuring out how to capitalize on a largely untapped market.

The raging commercial success of Sound of Freedom, an apparently objectively bad movie, has proven that this market is ready and very willing to throw their dollars at things that legitimize them and their world view.

I'm willing to write Musk off as a ketamine-fueled nutter whose ego prevents him from taking personal accountability, but Peter Thiel was one of the "shadow crew" behind this deal, and that strategy would be right on brand for him, and I have no lack of faith in his 4D chess, and a lot of this is pretty in line with his playbook.

Thiel was famously behind pushing Zuck to make FB more alt-right friendly, and he gave up his FB seat right before Musk took over Twitter, and he funded Rumble. This is all well within his wheelhouse, and if he's the one playing 4D chess, then things could actually be going according to plan.

lemonlyman

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Re: Twitter
« Reply #993 on: December 01, 2023, 10:38:36 AM »
Great quote in the WSJ today:

Quote
Musk’s comments seem at odds with his stated commitment to free speech, said Neal Thurman, co-founder of the nonprofit industry group Brand Safety Institute.

“He appears to be addressing the situation as if there is a presumption that advertisers should be spending on X. As if they have an obligation to fund it through their ad budgets,” Thurman said. “His indignant response to his customers voting with their wallets in response to his approach is ironic from someone who claims to be a free speech, free market libertarian. This is what free markets do.”
Musk has never cared about free speech, only freedom for his speech.  He has never cared about free markets - only freedom from regulation for his products in the market.  He is not interested in liberty beyond what directly impacts himself.

Once you realize that, Musk's comments make perfect sense.
It doesn't matter if Elon or anyone else is a hypocrite. We're all hypocrites. Doesn't change a thing.

What matters is whether enough people think that it matters, because then they will sit back and do nothing, expecting the contradictions or nonsense reasoning to unravel the problem on their own.

Donald Trump should have taught us that it doesn't matter. He can be philosophically incoherent in a thousand ways and it only helps him. People don't run from hypocrisy, they embrace it because it gives them license to live more Id-centric lives and suppress their own troubling thoughts.

Musk is a politician too, and has moved into a position to pull the strings on the supply of information like the Soviet politiburo. When the bros rally as a tribe to defend his "free speech" they relieve themselves of a certain intellectual burden. Read Erich Fromm to understand why.

Totally. It's the actions that matter. Not the comments or news or forum discussions. Trump did teach a lesson in what the public is willing to tolerate. He's also taught that outrage has a short lifespan and it's doubtful that "pulling the strings" at Twitter actually affects things that much. Certainly hasn't benefited Musk's personal brand at all.

I disagree that there's an assumption that Musk believes advertisers are obligated to pay. The nuance is he's saying if you want him to change his behavior, he doesn't want the money. That's normal business behavior. Anyone here who has run a professional service business will attest to that. I'm a CPA. I've told many clients to go away for many reasons from wanting to skirt rules to a disagreement on interpretation of regulations. Sometimes it gets ugly but all were willing to pay me money. Declining money is normal. Totally makes sense a journalist wouldn't understand that.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2023, 10:41:52 AM by lemonlyman »

Fru-Gal

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Re: Twitter
« Reply #994 on: December 01, 2023, 10:49:04 AM »
I understood the nuance of declining advertiser money that is tied to editorial requirements. This is the game that all media plays, constantly. But where Musk seemed unhinged and angry is when he subsequently said that the platform will die because advertisers will have killed it (and that he will document this in great detail, and “Earth” will be the judge).

So which is it, Musk? Are you able to decline advertising or are you not?

bacchi

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Re: Twitter
« Reply #995 on: December 01, 2023, 11:02:56 AM »
I understood the nuance of declining advertiser money that is tied to editorial requirements. This is the game that all media plays, constantly. But where Musk seemed unhinged and angry is when he subsequently said that the platform will die because advertisers will have killed it (and that he will document this in great detail, and “Earth” will be the judge).

So which is it, Musk? Are you able to decline advertising or are you not?

It's also not normal to take it so personally. When I declined projects because the client was too troublesome, or the work wasn't interesting, I didn't send the client an email stating "Your project sounds boring and I don't need your money. Go. Fuck. Yourself."

lemonlyman

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Re: Twitter
« Reply #996 on: December 01, 2023, 11:10:46 AM »
The platform dying because of it is where I think he's being facetious and not forthcoming. If X is dead by the end of 2024 or 2025, ok, but I think in those comments he is directly targeting those businesses for jumping on calling him antisemitic when he clearly isn't. That is personal (the most recent boycott anyway). If someone walked into my business and judged my character that way out of context, I might tell them to fuck off too.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2023, 11:12:19 AM by lemonlyman »

jinga nation

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Re: Twitter
« Reply #997 on: December 01, 2023, 11:23:38 AM »

bacchi

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Re: Twitter
« Reply #998 on: December 01, 2023, 11:25:46 AM »
The platform dying because of it is where I think he's being facetious and not forthcoming. If X is dead by the end of 2024 or 2025, ok, but I think in those comments he is directly targeting those businesses for jumping on calling him antisemitic when he clearly isn't. That is personal (the most recent boycott anyway). If someone walked into my business and judged my character that way out of context, I might tell them to fuck off too.

That way out of context? Did you read the post he agreed with? Are you suggesting that he was too stoned or sleep deprived to fully read it or that it wasn't antisemitic?

Quote from: The Artist Formerly Known as Eric
Jewish communties [sic] have been pushing the exact kind of dialectical hatred against whites that they claim to want people to stop using against them.

I'm deeply disinterested in giving the tiniest shit now about western Jewish populations coming to the disturbing realization that those hordes of minorities that support flooding their country don't exactly like them too much.

You want truth said to your face, there it is.

Do you agree that "Jewish communities" have been pushing hatred against whites? What does that even mean?

Provide the context, please.

Fru-Gal

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Re: Twitter
« Reply #999 on: December 01, 2023, 11:35:44 AM »
Yeah sadly that post that he agreed with, in writing, is not only antisemitic, it is straight up nonsensical. He’s completely addicted to the platform, always has been, and as a result is prone to participating in and perpetuating the kind of intellectual outrage porn that it facilitates. Clearly he tried to then walk it back by going to Israel.

Ultimately, we’re arguing with someone who is addicted — not to ketamine, but to Twitter.

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!