Author Topic: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy  (Read 105867 times)

Gin1984

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Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #300 on: February 06, 2015, 06:46:51 PM »
That is like saying that if someone said that the earth did not revolve around the sun, and it we'd the other way around that there is a debate between the two.  No, there is reality and falsehoods, that is not a debate.

Beric01

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Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #301 on: February 06, 2015, 07:06:01 PM »
Not getting your children (or yourself) vaccinated is idiotic, and all available scientific knowledge clearly shows this to be the case.

With that being said, the government should NOT be mandating fluids to be injected into one's body against one's will. Personal liberty comes first. I'm fine with excluding unvaccinated people from public places, or whatever is necessary, but the government has no business doing something with forcing something into someone's body against their will.

NumberJohnny5

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Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #302 on: February 06, 2015, 07:06:29 PM »
That is like saying that if someone said that the earth did not revolve around the sun, and it we'd the other way around that there is a debate between the two.  No, there is reality and falsehoods, that is not a debate.

There are still two sides. Side 1 believes the earth revolves around the sun. Side 2 believes the sun revolves around the earth. Ok, now...fight! And...wow, that didn't take long. KO'd in the first 10 seconds!

Side 1 believes the moon landing was faked. Side 2 believes it was real. Ready, set, GO! Not as easy as before, but not too terribly hard. Yeah, it COULD be a conspiracy (the world is full of actual conspiracies, you know) but there's enough evidence to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that we did land on the moon.

Side 1 believes vaccines are necessary for everyone except the extremely immunocompromised and the ones who have already had severe enough reactions where they almost died. Side 2 believes that there are times that you may want to delay or skip them, even if the reactions aren't so severe. And...wait, time out. Ok, side 2 has several factions. Looks like they'll have to all duke it out and see who comes out on top. Side 2a thinks that all vaccines are evil and cause autism, and side 2b thinks that vaccines are good, but their kid had some issues so.... Oh, wait, here's side 2c where they think vaccines are fine and their kids have no issues, but rely on everyone else vaccinating. Oh you got to be kidding, there's a 2d 2e 2f....

I think that 2a is going to loose pretty quickly, no doubt in my mind. 2c is selfish, but they might have a point? 2b might have a better point than 2c as long as they came to the decision in a rational manner (a child coughing three times in a row? Yeah, that's not severe, get the darned vaccinations).

I think I've said about all there really is on my side (which was side Z, also known as the "Hey, let's crash this party! Woohoo!"). I'll read the responses, won't bother responding to any that call me a poopoo face (if I want that kind of put-down, I'll spend time with my 6-yr old), and will try to refrain from reposting the same thing over and over and over again. So, feel free to call me out, I probably won't say anything. If there's something new or I have an actual relevant response, eh.

Glenstache

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Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #303 on: February 06, 2015, 07:16:46 PM »
See also:
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Balance_fallacy

i.e. The "two sides to every debate" thing works fine if you're debating if red or blue is your favorite color, or if you are in the high school debate team, but not so much when objectively verifiable issues are being discussed. In the case of vaccines, the science behind efficacy and risk is generally pretty clear and there is a framework for deciding on the small minority of people who should not receive them. If people are questioning this, it should be on a scientific basis. Unfortunately, many people lack the scientific literacy to do this, or have other perceptions of science that prevent them from accepting it- in those cases, discussion is moot.

The details of whether vaccines should be mandated, of if the unvaccinated should be excluded from public places, etc is a *policy* decision, not a scientific one, though in principle the effects of those policy decisions have predictable outcomes.

Gin1984

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Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #304 on: February 06, 2015, 07:18:23 PM »
Not getting your children (or yourself) vaccinated is idiotic, and all available scientific knowledge clearly shows this to be the case.

With that being said, the government should NOT be mandating fluids to be injected into one's body against one's will. Personal liberty comes first. I'm fine with excluding unvaccinated people from public places, or whatever is necessary, but the government has no business doing something with forcing something into someone's body against their will.
I have two issues with what you said.  One, these are adults refusing for their minor children, which do not have bodily autonomy in most cases and two, we have a history of forcing actions on people for public safety, for example quarantines when science says someone is a danger.

PeteD01

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Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #305 on: February 06, 2015, 07:25:10 PM »
Not getting your children (or yourself) vaccinated is idiotic, and all available scientific knowledge clearly shows this to be the case.

With that being said, the government should NOT be mandating fluids to be injected into one's body against one's will. Personal liberty comes first. I'm fine with excluding unvaccinated people from public places, or whatever is necessary, but the government has no business doing something with forcing something into someone's body against their will.

Who is going to exclude unvaccinated people from public places for the rest of their lives?

okonumiyaki

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Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #306 on: February 06, 2015, 08:24:53 PM »
The best example of the state enforcing "medicine" using violence would be psychiatry. So it would be fair to say that there is a multi-century history of the state forcing people to submit to "medical" treatments whether they want them or not. Whether it's a good idea is a separate question. I consider it a horrible idea and I would prefer a strict separation between medicine and the state -- including abolishing the extant psychiatric controls.

If I had to take a wild guess, I would speculate that driving automobiles leads to far more deaths than declining to submit to vaccinations. That doesn't mean the state should ban cars.


The state though does license cars and drivers, and will send you to jail if you break the laws around driving.  The state also mandates seat belts, air bags and many other safety devices.

You can't decline to get a license or wear a seatbelt.  Why should you be able to decline to get a vaccination?

sheepstache

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Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #307 on: February 06, 2015, 08:30:50 PM »
See also:
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Balance_fallacy

i.e. The "two sides to every debate" thing works fine if you're debating if red or blue is your favorite color, or if you are in the high school debate team, but not so much when objectively verifiable issues are being discussed. In the case of vaccines, the science behind efficacy and risk is generally pretty clear and there is a framework for deciding on the small minority of people who should not receive them. If people are questioning this, it should be on a scientific basis. Unfortunately, many people lack the scientific literacy to do this, or have other perceptions of science that prevent them from accepting it- in those cases, discussion is moot.

The details of whether vaccines should be mandated, of if the unvaccinated should be excluded from public places, etc is a *policy* decision, not a scientific one, though in principle the effects of those policy decisions have predictable outcomes.

Reminds me of a series of "Teach the Controversy" t-shirt designs I think SMBC did awhile back.

Gin1984

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Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #308 on: February 06, 2015, 08:31:49 PM »
The best example of the state enforcing "medicine" using violence would be psychiatry. So it would be fair to say that there is a multi-century history of the state forcing people to submit to "medical" treatments whether they want them or not. Whether it's a good idea is a separate question. I consider it a horrible idea and I would prefer a strict separation between medicine and the state -- including abolishing the extant psychiatric controls.

If I had to take a wild guess, I would speculate that driving automobiles leads to far more deaths than declining to submit to vaccinations. That doesn't mean the state should ban cars.
Actually no, if we all stop taking vaccines the diseases would kill/seriously harm more people than car accidents do.

iris lily

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Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #309 on: February 06, 2015, 08:33:03 PM »
Not getting your children (or yourself) vaccinated is idiotic, and all available scientific knowledge clearly shows this to be the case.

With that being said, the government should NOT be mandating fluids to be injected into one's body against one's will. Personal liberty comes first. I'm fine with excluding unvaccinated people from public places, or whatever is necessary, but the government has no business doing something with forcing something into someone's body against their will.
Thank you, yes.

PKFFW

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Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #310 on: February 06, 2015, 08:40:30 PM »
I'm still not sure I understand something.....

One should ask the doctor questions, do the research, be informed and educated about vaccines.

But If one comes to the conclusion that they or their child should not take a certain vaccine that their doctor recommends then they are a crackpot loony toon.

I'm not sure how these two go together.  Why bother suggesting that anyone should be informed?


Say a kid has cancer. Parents do the right thing, they "ask the doctor questions, do the research, be informed and educated about" cancer. But then they refuse to get the cancer treated or cut out. Everyone would say they are "crackpot loony toon". Nobody is suggesting being informed is bad, they are suggesting just because you are informed doesn't mean you get a free pass to do crackpot loony toon things.
I'm not asking that anyone be given a free pass.  They shouldn't be.  Loony toon is loony toon after all.  And, just to reiterate, I'm pro-vaccination, I'm not arguing the anti-vaxxer case.

I'm just asking why bother suggesting people be informed if there is only one valid conclusion?

The valid conclusion is to do what the doctor tells you to do and get the vaccine regardless of any concerns you have or how informed you are.

So what is the point in telling someone to be informed?  Is it just to make people feel they are not really saying "shut up and do as you are told"?

I mean, why not simply man up and take ownership of what is really being said?  Why not say "the science is in and no matter what, you need to shut up and take your damn medicine no questions asked, no debate entered into!!"

NumberJohnny5

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Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #311 on: February 06, 2015, 09:33:48 PM »
3. For some people, the administration of a vaccine can be traumatic. I remember in school, when we lined up for vaccines, there were always some people who would emit blood-curdling screams, and people who fainted, and so on. I strongly disliked the puncture of my skin myself.

Hey, me again. This is new, so I'll let myself make a brief comment.

I had traumatizing experiences going to the one dentist in town (I think he's still the only one). Not a very good bedside manner, so to speak. If you're familiar with the show My Family (not Modern Family), take Ben Harper and imagine him not being nearly as nice to his patients. I finally went back about fifteen years later, guy was even worse. Speaking pretty condescendingly about the state of my teeth, not being very nice, not trying to be gentle with that huge needle, etc. Fast forward another 10+ years, and I finally found some good dentists. Unfortunately, it's gonna cost new car money to patch things up.

My son had one bad experience with a dentist. Claimed the sedation was working when it obviously wasn't. I hope he wasn't traumatized too bad. The new one is much much much nicer. He can put his hand up and she'll stop. Talks him through everything, makes sure he's comfortable. I'd much rather he have slightly worse teeth now because he refused a cavity or two to be fixed, than be traumatized and let half his teeth go bad over the next 30 years.

To this day I still have an extreme phobia of needles. I've put off more than just my teeth because of that (just got around to having some basic blood work done last year, I only put that off a couple decades).

Dunno how that fits in with the discussion, but yeah...I still have the irrational thought that needles = bad. If I hadn't had the traumatizing experience(s) growing up, maybe I'd be in much better shape now?

Glenstache

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Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #312 on: February 06, 2015, 09:42:11 PM »
The "science is in" argument is a bit of a red herring anyway. I can think of many potential reasons to decline vaccination without disputing the merits of the science:

1. The fluid being administered to you may not be the same fluid studied by "the science". Maybe it has been tampered with, or not stored in suitably sterile conditions, or switched with another fluid by accident or intentionally, prior to its injection into you. Maybe the company that manufactured the vaccine did an incompetent or negligent job of same (actually not uncommon).

2. The technician may not administer the vaccine properly. Maybe they will do it in a way that causes injury (also not uncommon).

3. For some people, the administration of a vaccine can be traumatic. I remember in school, when we lined up for vaccines, there were always some people who would emit blood-curdling screams, and people who fainted, and so on. I strongly disliked the puncture of my skin myself.


If a disease is sufficiently obscure, the risks associated with the administration of the vaccine -- including uncertainty over whether you are getting the correct fluid, the skill of the technician, and the trauma of the administration -- could outweigh the benefits, which are likely to be nil.

As a practical matter, I don't have a strong objection to taking vaccines. But I reject the suggestion that deciding to submit to a medical procedure is a decision that anybody should make lightly and without thought.

1,2,3 fall under vaccine complications, which are well studied.

As to now-obscure vaccines, this is why we are no longer vaccinated against smallpox... thanks to successful vaccination.

Primm

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Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #313 on: February 06, 2015, 11:07:16 PM »
Not getting your children (or yourself) vaccinated is idiotic, and all available scientific knowledge clearly shows this to be the case.

With that being said, the government should NOT be mandating fluids to be injected into one's body against one's will. Personal liberty comes first. I'm fine with excluding unvaccinated people from public places, or whatever is necessary, but the government has no business doing something with forcing something into someone's body against their will.

My husband was vaccinated as a child, but now has a chronic illness that he needs to take immunosuppressant drugs for, for the rest of his life. As a consequence he is unable to be vaccinated against anything that has worn off. What he's got now is it for him.

So you're ok with people like him, kids with compromised immune systems etc. being excluded from public places? Really?

okonumiyaki

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Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #314 on: February 07, 2015, 12:22:29 AM »
Similarly, the lack of skill of technicians may have been "well studied", but that doesn't change the fact that the technician who administers a vaccine to you may be unskilled.

Similarly, trauma may be "well studied", but that doesn't change the traumatic nature of the event.

I am a bit baffled by your response. Perhaps you just meant to alert us that these things have been studied, without implying anything further.


Another argument I am going to anticipate is that these risks apply to almost all medicine. That is true, but is merely a reason to take any medical procedure as a serious risk (which I do), rather than an argument that they do not apply here.

??  In general, I tend not to carry around a portable chromograph or demand to see full training records of clinical technicians.  I tend to trust that we have audited regulations in place that mean the MMR vaccine hasn't been switched out with strychnine.

I don't think your concerns (that the vaccine may be something else, or that the doctor/ technician is unqualified) are legitimate


Glenstache

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Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #315 on: February 07, 2015, 12:31:05 AM »
Does those issues being "well studied" change their legitimacy? No amount of studies can help you determine whether the fluid you are receiving is the actual vaccine. You would actually need to use something like chromatography to figure that out, prior to its injection into your body.

Similarly, the lack of skill of technicians may have been "well studied", but that doesn't change the fact that the technician who administers a vaccine to you may be unskilled.

Similarly, trauma may be "well studied", but that doesn't change the traumatic nature of the event.

I am a bit baffled by your response. Perhaps you just meant to alert us that these things have been studied, without implying anything further.


Another argument I am going to anticipate is that these risks apply to almost all medicine. That is true, but is merely a reason to take any medical procedure as a serious risk (which I do), rather than an argument that they do not apply here.
Likewise, I am a bit baffled by your concerns, as you appear to be coming from California. We are fortunate to live in places that these concerns are not a big-scale problem... and that we have easy, safe, reliable access to vaccines.

Vaccine complications related to injections are well studied and have been shown to be infrequent, and generally nuisance-level reactions as opposed to anything serious. 

As to needles being actually traumatic: that is something for a parent to coach their kids through. Most people don't have PTSD from their vaccinations. I'm not saying that to be a smartass, but in an earnest way. Sometimes necessary things are not pleasant and it is the role of the parent to make those things happen and support their child through it as needed. But that is about parenting, not about the statistical understanding of actual vaccine complications. I personally get woozy and don't like shots. I get that, but I also don't like the thought of much, much worse communicable disease. I say that from the anecdotal perspective of having been hospitalized in the third world for disease, for which I wish there had been a vaccine. Not fun and even that was not as bad as some of the other diseases out there.

As to wondering if the vaccines are actually vaccines: there have been instances of widespread distribution of fake vaccines. These have been criminal activities that, as far as I have seen, were in large campaigns in Africa and southeast Asia where regulatory systems are not as robust as in industrialized nations and there is a strong economic incentive to do so. This is very unlikely to be the case in the United States, Europe, etc.  If a doctor in the US knowingly gives you fake vaccines not as part of a double blind study, that would open them up to quite a bit of liability. If a supplier did that in the USA they would face the FDA.


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Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #316 on: February 07, 2015, 12:51:31 AM »

I do take more steps to avoid risk than MMM would approve of. I'm not going to go into details for two reasons: (1) it would not lead to a constructive conversation, and (2) my operational security would actually be less effective if I disclosed all of its components.

Despite that, I have personally accepted every vaccination offered to me, including relatively insignificant ones such as flu shots. For most people, that is probably rational, but different people make different assessments of risk and consequences -- the extremist views some people apparently have (such as endorsing state violence to apply vaccines) are not something I can support.
I did delete my original post. Reading it after posting made me realize, that you are probably an extremely risk averse  person.

That said, assessing risks actually requires a good understanding statistics. People do not often have this  knowledge and ability and make decisions more on a gut feel and anecdotal evidence rather than hard numbers.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2015, 12:55:38 AM by rpr »

workathomedad

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Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #317 on: February 07, 2015, 06:55:25 AM »
Since the MMR vaccine is basically 100% effective, why are you so scared? My family is protected so we don't have to worry. No one has died of Measles in a decade in a US. Even among the 400 Amish kids who got it last year, no one died. You're more likely to die in a car accident to the Dr.'s office to get your Measles vaccine than to actually die from Measles in the US... lol.

workathomedad

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Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #318 on: February 07, 2015, 06:59:49 AM »
Not getting your children (or yourself) vaccinated is idiotic, and all available scientific knowledge clearly shows this to be the case.

With that being said, the government should NOT be mandating fluids to be injected into one's body against one's will. Personal liberty comes first. I'm fine with excluding unvaccinated people from public places, or whatever is necessary, but the government has no business doing something with forcing something into someone's body against their will.

My husband was vaccinated as a child, but now has a chronic illness that he needs to take immunosuppressant drugs for, for the rest of his life. As a consequence he is unable to be vaccinated against anything that has worn off. What he's got now is it for him.

So you're ok with people like him, kids with compromised immune systems etc. being excluded from public places? Really?

Vaccines do have some very rare side effects. I just looked it up on PubMed and it looks like some people think one of them could be auto-immune disorders, though I'm not sure you're husband would qualify since it developed so much later in life!

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20193633

justajane

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Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #319 on: February 07, 2015, 07:02:00 AM »
@NumberJohnny5
It's pretty easy to construct a legitimate sounding but ultimately bogus anti-vaccine narrative. In many respects, mine would be even more convincing than wild wendella's, if I chose to disregard science and not vaccinate my kids.

The thing is, as you probably know, babies cry all the time. As a parent, you try to guess what the hell is wrong with them, but more often than not, you are at a loss. I have had three babies who like to cry, but even taking that into account, they were extra cranky after their vaccines. They spiked fevers, slept even worse than they already did, and pretty much were attached to me for a day or two afterwards. If I wanted to, I could have probably written all this in a way that could justify a decision to forego future vaccines, at least to those who weren't able to wade through the bullshit. But how did she truly know her baby was crying because he got a vaccine? Perhaps he started to cut a tooth that day? Maybe he was constipated? Maybe he had an ear infection (sometimes these do go undiagnosed)? I'm not trying to disregard crying for "days and days", but this can definitely be a correlation and not causation situation. And even if he did cry because of the vaccine - so what? For us that's a day that ends in "y."

But here's the coup de grace that would make my story even more compelling and would likely give other parents pause if I constructed it in a disingenuous way.

I mentioned earlier that my eldest got intussesception when he was 7 months old. For those that don't know, this is a telescoping (i.e. blockage) of the bowel that, if not treated, leads to death within about 48 hours. Because of radiologists and pediatric surgeons, this almost never happens in this country, but in the wild, intussesception = death.

Here's where the vaccine debate comes in. If you go to the CDC, one listed side effect of the Rotateq vaccine is intussesception. It's given twice in the first year. If I were looking to find a way to stop vaccinating, wasn't that good at reading medical material, and had a flare for the dramatic (i.e. overlooked that modern medicine exists), I could argue to the impressionable among us that Rotateq almost killed my baby!!!!!!

Anti-vaxxers also like to discuss VAERS (the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System) to convince people that vaccines are evil, and between 2006-2012 over 500 people reported intussesception post-Rotateq. 500 babies!!! In the hands of an anti-vaxxer, this could become very concerning to vulnerable readers, so much so that they might forego the vaccine altogether. After all, the rotavirus isn't that bad, is it? What this overlooks, however, is that it is only considered a true side effect of Rotateq if the event occurs within 3-6 days after the first Rotateq vaccine. Just because some people reported it does not mean it was actually related.
 
But if I had a predilection for hating vaccines, my stubborn narrative here could be Rotateq almost killed my baby!!! It would disregard science, matters of risk/reward, and my access to modern medicine, but it would still convince some people.

justajane

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Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #320 on: February 07, 2015, 07:04:21 AM »
Since the MMR vaccine is basically 100% effective, why are you so scared? My family is protected so we don't have to worry. No one has died of Measles in a decade in a US. Even among the 400 Amish kids who got it last year, no one died. You're more likely to die in a car accident to the Dr.'s office to get your Measles vaccine than to actually die from Measles in the US... lol.


Gin1984

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Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #321 on: February 07, 2015, 07:49:35 AM »
Not getting your children (or yourself) vaccinated is idiotic, and all available scientific knowledge clearly shows this to be the case.

With that being said, the government should NOT be mandating fluids to be injected into one's body against one's will. Personal liberty comes first. I'm fine with excluding unvaccinated people from public places, or whatever is necessary, but the government has no business doing something with forcing something into someone's body against their will.

My husband was vaccinated as a child, but now has a chronic illness that he needs to take immunosuppressant drugs for, for the rest of his life. As a consequence he is unable to be vaccinated against anything that has worn off. What he's got now is it for him.

So you're ok with people like him, kids with compromised immune systems etc. being excluded from public places? Really?
Absolutely not.  That is why we, as a society, have a responsibility to vaccinate, so those like your husband who rely on the herd are able to live as full a life as they can.   

caliq

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Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #322 on: February 07, 2015, 08:22:23 AM »
The "science is in" argument is a bit of a red herring anyway. I can think of many potential reasons to decline vaccination without disputing the merits of the science:

1. The fluid being administered to you may not be the same fluid studied by "the science". Maybe it has been tampered with, or not stored in suitably sterile conditions, or switched with another fluid by accident or intentionally, prior to its injection into you. Maybe the company that manufactured the vaccine did an incompetent or negligent job of same (actually not uncommon).

2. The technician may not administer the vaccine properly. Maybe they will do it in a way that causes injury (also not uncommon).

3. For some people, the administration of a vaccine can be traumatic. I remember in school, when we lined up for vaccines, there were always some people who would emit blood-curdling screams, and people who fainted, and so on. I strongly disliked the puncture of my skin myself.


If a disease is sufficiently obscure, the risks associated with the administration of the vaccine -- including uncertainty over whether you are getting the correct fluid, the skill of the technician, and the trauma of the administration -- could outweigh the benefits, which are likely to be nil.

As a practical matter, I don't have a strong objection to taking vaccines. But I reject the suggestion that deciding to submit to a medical procedure is a decision that anybody should make lightly and without thought.

I know others have already addressed your concerns about these risks but I really feel I have to say something about your #3.

The trauma of being injected with a needle is nothing in comparison to the trauma of dying or losing your immunocompromised loved one to a once-eradicated disease.

An anecdote:

I am a very difficult person to get blood from.  The veins in my arms collapse the second they are touched with a needle, even if the phlebotomist uses one of the tiny butterfly needles designed for use with infants.  This led to many many "traumatizing" experiences as a child/teenager, where nurses would try to take my blood and end up digging around in both arms for extended periods of time, alternating back and forth, trying my wrists and the tops of my hands.  I fainted and/or threw up many times.  By the time I was in high school, the blood drawing procedure went like this: 

1.  Doctor orders blood work, and prescribes several doses of a topical numbing cream usually only given to infants.
2.  Regardless of the requirements of the test, I do not eat before getting blood drawn ever (so the puking was less likely and/or less gross).  Unless the test was specifically required to be non-fasting.
2.  Mom picks up the cream, applies it to both inner elbows, both wrists, tops of both of my hands.
3.  Mom drives me to the blood drawing place at local hospital, speaks with the intake person and explains the situation, demanding their best phlebotomist and a room with a bench for me to lie down on (not sit -- couldn't be upright).  Doctor's office has called ahead and made it clear that these are absolute requirements.
4.  We go into the blood drawing room (Mom had to come with me every time).  I immediately start having panic attack symptoms.  Have to lay down and practice steady breathing techniques, squeeze the fuck out of my mom's hand, and usually attempt to answer her random questions aimed at distracting me.
5.  If they actually gave us the best phlebotomist, they get the blood out as easily as possible and leave me to recover in a prone position for minimum 20 minutes after getting blood drawn.  If they didn't give us the best, they end up digging around in my arm, wrists, hands.  Getting another person to try.  A crowd usually gathers offering various pointers.  At some point I pass out and/or puke.  It turns into a giant fiasco. 

In addition to all the trauma that I actually remember, I'm told I was physically held down by two nurses and my mother at the doctor's office the first time I had blood drawn, presumably around age 3 or 4.  I was apparently screaming "It's my blood, you can't take it from me!" 



The thing is, I'm 23 now and I can get blood drawn without any of the theatrics.   I don't even need the numbing stuff.  It still sucks, and they still sometimes take a really long time to find the vein.  I got really sick my senior year of high school and ended up needing blood tests almost weekly, for a period of about 6 months.  At some point during that process, the repetition forced me to get over the anxiety/trauma. 

Now it's like going to the dentist (which was also traumatizing, until I got braces and was forced to get over it) -- I sit there, close my eyes and focus on my breathing, and try not to look at or think about the sharp object invading my flesh. 




My point is, kids find a lot of things 'traumatizing.'  As adults, we tend to see those same things in a different light.  Somehow I don't think I could get over my little sister dying because someone else didn't vaccinate their kid, though.  That seems a bit different.

The diseases we vaccinate for are "sufficiently obscure" because we vaccinate against them.


A more general point, which I and others have made multiple times, but apparently needs repeating:

If you are physically capable of receiving and surviving a vaccine without serious (life-threatening) issues, you have a moral responsibility to provide herd immunity to those who are not.  You do not have the right to rely on herd immunity and not vaccinate yourself or your children, because doing so weakens the herd immunity provided to those who truly need it.

Gin1984

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Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #323 on: February 07, 2015, 08:30:51 AM »
I have to also admit to a needle phobia, to the point that my first discussion with my OB was how I would not get an epi and if it got to the point of needing that, knock my ass out and go a C-section.  If she could not agree, I'd find a new practice.  I was not, and did not have a needle near my spine.  That was my line.  Did I still get vaccinated, yes.  Something that affects only me, fine the choice is mine, the decision affect the weakest among us, then I have responsibility to protect them.

PeteD01

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Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #324 on: February 07, 2015, 09:18:35 AM »
The UK has seen measles outbreaks as a consequence of decreased vaccination rates a couple of years before the U.S.
Once the disease resurfaces perceived risk from the disease itself goes up and tends to put perceived vaccination risk into perspective. Since anti vaccine sentiment is fear driven, the resurfacing of the disease drives up vaccination rates.

Here is the last sentence of the BBC article:

"There has been a universal recovery in vaccination rates, which are now at record levels."


http://www.bbc.com/news/health-22277186



Glenstache

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Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #325 on: February 07, 2015, 09:50:22 AM »
I don't think this changes the scope of the discussion, but is interesting for context on the article that has been posted a few times earlier in the thread pointing out that presenting anti-vaxxers with science makes them less likely to vaccinate.

"The Vaccine Controversy: Through an Evolutionary Lens"

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/your-brain-childhood/201502/the-vaccine-controversy-through-evolutionary-lens

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Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #326 on: February 07, 2015, 11:40:34 AM »
Well, at least we'll now be discussing the social and political philosophy of liberty and the social contract. Like virtually all philosophical discussions, they will only be as useful as the boundary discussions of the discussion. I don't see moral relativism as being a productive way to discuss vaccines because it is so susceptible to slippery slope type logical fallacies (e.g., do you drive, but still expect vaccination?).

As a general personal philosophical statement, I would put forth that there is more of a moral obligation to not do harm to others than to be required to help someone and your own expense. It is worse to steal from someone than to pass them on the street and not give them $20. In the case of vaccination where there is little personal expense (but yes, some very, very small risk and expense), the scales weigh towards not harming those around you by eschewing vaccination. Is this an absolute? Of course not. Is it reasonable enough that we should reasonably as a society expect to be able to hit effective vaccination rates? I sure hope so.

PeteD01

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Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #327 on: February 07, 2015, 11:44:34 AM »

In the vaccination case, both the inconvenience and the benefits are fairly trivial for any one person. (Of course, they become nontrivial if a lot of people decline to vaccinate; everybody realises that, but since it isn't happening, it's irrelevant to keep repeating it.)


This is a common misunderstanding.
The risk from vaccinating can be readily quantified and is indeed rather low. The risk of catching the disease for the not vaccinated individual is a cumulative lifetime risk which is also dependent on current and future vaccination rates, travel etc - which are unknown. Dismissing the lifetime risk of coming down with an infectious disease as trivial based on the present epidemiological background is simplistic. Fortunately, every outbreak drives this point home leading to subsequent increases in vaccinations even in people who did not get vaccinated on schedule in the first place.

In summary, the cumulative lifetime risk of catching measles for a susceptible individual cannot be readily quantified. Contingent on circumstances, the risk may be very low or approach 1.0 and cannot be characterized as trivial.

Gin1984

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Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #328 on: February 07, 2015, 12:00:26 PM »

In the vaccination case, both the inconvenience and the benefits are fairly trivial for any one person. (Of course, they become nontrivial if a lot of people decline to vaccinate; everybody realises that, but since it isn't happening, it's irrelevant to keep repeating it.)


This is a common misunderstanding.
The risk from vaccinating can be readily quantified and is indeed rather low. The risk of catching the disease for the not vaccinated individual is a cumulative lifetime risk which is also dependent on current and future vaccination rates, travel etc - which are unknown. Dismissing the lifetime risk of coming down with an infectious disease as trivial based on the present epidemiological background is simplistic. Fortunately, every outbreak drives this point home leading to subsequent increases in vaccinations even in people who did not get vaccinated on schedule in the first place.

In summary, the cumulative lifetime risk of catching measles for a susceptible individual cannot be readily quantified. Contingent on circumstances, the risk may be very low or approach 1.0 and cannot be characterized as trivial.
I'm sure the Amish community thought they risk was low, given that they are a pretty insular community without much contact with outsiders.
http://www.vox.com/2015/1/29/7929791/measles-outbreak-2014
Yet, they did catch measles, funny that.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2015, 07:58:56 PM by Gin1984 »

MoneyCat

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Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #329 on: February 07, 2015, 12:55:47 PM »
Some people are too stupid to be allowed to make decisions for themselves, so, yes, they should be forced to vaccinate their children.  If they don't want to do it, they can move to a third world country instead.  That's the fairest way to handle this situation.

caliq

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Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #330 on: February 07, 2015, 02:32:31 PM »

In the vaccination case, both the inconvenience and the benefits are fairly trivial for any one person. (Of course, they become nontrivial if a lot of people decline to vaccinate; everybody realises that, but since it isn't happening, it's irrelevant to keep repeating it.)


This is a common misunderstanding.
The risk from vaccinating can be readily quantified and is indeed rather low. The risk of catching the disease for the not vaccinated individual is a cumulative lifetime risk which is also dependent on current and future vaccination rates, travel etc - which are unknown. Dismissing the lifetime risk of coming down with an infectious disease as trivial based on the present epidemiological background is simplistic. Fortunately, every outbreak drives this point home leading to subsequent increases in vaccinations even in people who did not get vaccinated on schedule in the first place.

In summary, the cumulative lifetime risk of catching measles for a susceptible individual cannot be readily quantified. Contingent on circumstances, the risk may be very low or approach 1.0 and cannot be characterized as trivial.
I'm sure the Amish community thought they risk was low, given test they are a pretty insular community without much contact with outsiders.
http://www.vox.com/2015/1/29/7929791/measles-outbreak-2014
Yet, they did catch measles, funny that.

I have posted links to this information at least twice in this thread, but I will post it again.

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/imz-managers/coverage/nis/child/index.html

In 1997, Colorado had a MMR vaccination rate of 94.1%.
In 1998, Andrew Wakefield's falsified study linking vaccines to autism was published.
By 2000, Colorado's MMR vaccination rate dropped to 87.2%.
In 2009, Colorado's MMR vaccination rate was 83.6%.
In 2010, the Wakefield paper was finally retracted by the journal that published it (a significant time after it had been proven false).
The current vaccination rate is still somewhere around the 2010 rate.

Herd immunity begins to be lost at around 95%.  If you look through the extensive data provided by the CDC, you will note that a vast majority of states in this country have rates below 95% for most vaccines. 

See this article about the loss of herd immunity at Arizona schools:
http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/arizona/investigations/2015/02/03/hundreds-arizona-schools-skirting-vaccination-rule/22805897/

Quote
The data reviewed by The Republic shows about two of every five kindergarten classes in Arizona have such low vaccination rates that measles could spread rampantly among students and even to the community.

Those schools reported that less than 95 percent of their kindergartners last year were vaccinated against the measles — placing them below herd immunity rate. Herd immunity is achieved when enough people in a population are vaccinated that the disease cannot spread effectively, Sunenshine said.


We may differ on the moral/ethical side of the debate, Cathy, but you cannot base your arguments on a false assumption that vaccine rates aren't falling enough to impact herd immunity.

In response to your thought exercise, I'm not actually saving for retirement, I'm still trying to get out of debt ;)  And I'm going into a field that could actually save lives, so regardless of how far I go with the FIRE concept, I'm giving back to society. 

However, we are discussing a situation where the inconvenience to a sufficiently healthy person is very trivial, and the benefits are very significant.  Any analogy where the inconvenience/benefits aren't of the same magnitude is irrelevant. 

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Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #331 on: February 07, 2015, 02:53:10 PM »
Maybe having it in cartoon form will help:
http://imgur.com/a/ybBUJ

Gin1984

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Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #332 on: February 07, 2015, 03:35:23 PM »
That cartoon is a pretty shameful thing for any scientist to endorse. A lot of the narrative is focused on alleged moral and legal failings of the authors of particular studies (e.g. alleged tax evasion and unethical procedures for obtaining data). As scientists, we know that is all irrelevant to the quality of the research.


Another reason I roll my eyes a bit at "look at the science!" type arguments is that you can't look at the science. Scientific publishing is a massively profitable industry. I have access to all popular journals, but that is definitely not the case for most people. Articles typically cost over $30 to view a single one. Furthermore, the raw data is never included, and often not available on request either. Scientific publishing is a very insular circle in general and you would need to right personal connections to get enough information to actually reproduce most modern work.

The epithet "look at the science!" really means -- look at this website that makes certain claims, and blindly assume that they are true.

I have no doubts over the quality of vaccine research myself, but I certainly can't blame somebody who is disillusioned with the state of scientific publishing.
Uh, no, doing research in an unethical way is pretty relevant to the quality of the research.  That is one reason that if you don't follow proper ethical standards and the journal finds out, they won't publish (assuming a reputable journal).  In fact my paper had to say that we follow all legal/ethical standards for our treatment of animals for my paper to be considered for publication at all.
And you can get full studies from most major libraries (sometimes it can take a while but you can get it).  And if you want to reproduce an experiment, most labs have no problem giving you their full protocol.  I've gotten help from researchers all over the country just by asking (nicely) including antibodies, training and yes protocols.   
And side note, most people are not capable of understanding a peer reviewed journal given the deplorable state of our science education in this country. 

Gin1984

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Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #333 on: February 07, 2015, 03:44:45 PM »
That cartoon is a pretty shameful thing for any scientist to endorse. A lot of the narrative is focused on alleged moral and legal failings of the authors of particular studies (e.g. alleged tax evasion and unethical procedures for obtaining data). As scientists, we know that is all irrelevant to the quality of the research.


Another reason I roll my eyes a bit at "look at the science!" type arguments is that you can't look at the science. Scientific publishing is a massively profitable industry. I have access to all popular journals, but that is definitely not the case for most people. Articles typically cost over $30 to view a single one. Furthermore, the raw data is never included, and often not available on request either. Scientific publishing is a very insular circle in general and you would need to right personal connections to get enough information to actually reproduce most modern work.

The epithet "look at the science!" really means -- look at this website that makes certain claims, and blindly assume that they are true.

I have no doubts over the quality of vaccine research myself, but I certainly can't blame somebody who is disillusioned with the state of scientific publishing.
Uh, no, doing research in an unethical way is pretty relevant to the quality of the research.  That is one reason that if you don't follow proper ethical standards and the journal finds out, they won't publish (assuming a reputable journal).  In fact my paper had to say that we follow all legal/ethical standards for our treatment of animals for my paper to be considered for publication at all.

By "quality" here, I meant whether the claims the paper makes are true.

You can do high quality work in that sense regardless of whether you comply with any specific ethical rules.

It makes sense that you can't get it published though. That provides an incentive to be ethical. It doesn't mean that ethics is necessary to get correct results though.

Obviously, it's better to be ethical, but it's not relevant to the veracity of the claims -- that was my point here.

Actually it very much relevant because those who would be unethical in one respect (improper use of subjects) are more likely to also be unethical in other respects (lying about data).  And given that it has been shown that he did both, I don't understand why you are trying to defend this person. 

Glenstache

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Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #334 on: February 07, 2015, 03:45:44 PM »
That cartoon is a pretty shameful thing for any scientist to endorse. A lot of the narrative is focused on alleged moral and legal failings of the authors of particular studies (e.g. alleged tax evasion and unethical procedures for obtaining data). As scientists, we know that is all irrelevant to the quality of the research.


Another reason I roll my eyes a bit at "look at the science!" type arguments is that you can't look at the science. Scientific publishing is a massively profitable industry. I have access to all popular journals, but that is definitely not the case for most people. Articles typically cost over $30 to view a single one. Furthermore, the raw data is never included, and often not available on request either. Scientific publishing is a very insular circle in general and you would need to right personal connections to get enough information to actually reproduce most modern work.

The epithet "look at the science!" really means -- look at this website that makes certain claims, and blindly assume that they are true.

I have no doubts over the quality of vaccine research myself, but I certainly can't blame somebody who is disillusioned with the state of scientific publishing.
Uh, no, doing research in an unethical way is pretty relevant to the quality of the research.  That is one reason that if you don't follow proper ethical standards and the journal finds out, they won't publish (assuming a reputable journal).  In fact my paper had to say that we follow all legal/ethical standards for our treatment of animals for my paper to be considered for publication at all.

By "quality" here, I meant whether the claims the paper makes are true.

You can do high quality work in that sense regardless of whether you comply with any specific ethical rules.

It makes sense that you can't get it published though. That provides an incentive to be ethical. It doesn't mean that ethics is necessary to get correct results though.

Obviously, it's better to be ethical, but it's not relevant to the veracity of the claims -- that was my point here.

Also, there was the point that he fudged data. I can't think of anything more important than recognizing that he *made shit up*.

Also, people process cartoons and generally humor-type things differently than dry technical writing. People want that dopamine hit of getting the joke, so they are more open to trying to understand what is being presented. Therefore, I think cartoons are a great way to communicate some of this information. This one covered a lot of ground, hit things are are topical, and had a nice look to it.

Glenstache

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Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #335 on: February 07, 2015, 03:58:00 PM »
His unethical behavior was directly applicable to his motives to fabricate data. That's pretty much the end of story. Autism-linkage is a major canard of the anti-vaxxers and it is entirely appropriate to show how that is simply not correct and how that falsehood came to be.

Gin1984

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Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #336 on: February 07, 2015, 03:58:27 PM »
Making up data is a legitimate complaint with the "study". I didn't suggest otherwise.

I just felt that mentioning tax evasion and improper use of subjects was unnecessary.

There are examples of people who may have violated various ethical norms but whose work is not generally considered discredited on that basis, e.g. Kinsey.
I don't remember ever learning that Kinsey did not follow ethical guidelines in his research, care to back that up?  Or are you referring to personal behaviors that had nothing to be with Kinsley honest or not?  Because again " it very much relevant because those who would be unethical in one respect (improper use of subjects) are more likely to also be unethical in other respects (lying about data).  And given that it has been shown that he did both, I don't understand why you are trying to defend this person." 

Gin1984

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Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #337 on: February 07, 2015, 04:11:59 PM »
Making up data is a legitimate complaint with the "study". I didn't suggest otherwise.

I just felt that mentioning tax evasion and improper use of subjects was unnecessary.

There are examples of people who may have violated various ethical norms but whose work is not generally considered discredited on that basis, e.g. Kinsey.
I don't remember ever learning that Kinsey did not follow ethical guidelines in his research, care to back that up?  Or are you referring to personal behaviors that had nothing to be with Kinsley honest or not?  Because again " it very much relevant because those who would be unethical in one respect (improper use of subjects) are more likely to also be unethical in other respects (lying about data).  And given that it has been shown that he did both, I don't understand why you are trying to defend this person."

I said "may have" because it's a matter of some controversy, but I'm surprised you haven't heard of it.

The main complaints are relative to his data on orgasms in children, questioning how he obtained that data without violating various sexual abuse laws. I am not going to go into details of the allegations, but it's a pretty well known subject, so I'll let you research it yourself if you are interested.

I said "may have" because I don't have an opinion on the controversy. But as far as I know, no one involved suggests that it discredits the research.
In my psych undergrad nothing like was mentioned, yet issues with Freud's methodologies and even our current accepted methodologies were so I am a bit puzzled. Granted we mostly focused on his adult research.  However, do you not see an issue with claiming something, with people talking science, and not being willing to have a source?  You do understand why that might be seen as baseless (irrespective of if it is or not). 
That being said, you don't see how saying this person has been shown to be dishonest in X, oh and now we have found him to be dishonest in Y, oh yes we also he is dishonest in Z, even if Z is not directly relevant could be relevant to overall discussion of the person's data and honest of that? 

Gin1984

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Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #338 on: February 07, 2015, 04:45:25 PM »
I didn't link to a source re: Kinsey because everything I can find looks extremely biased one way or the other and I didn't want to be interpreted as endorsing a position.
So do you not see the difference between, accusations about Kinsey and facts against Wakefield?  Here is another example of differentiating between facts and a debate about them.  One is debated about another is not.  We know Wakefield was dishonest, there no one looking at the facts who disagrees with that.

Primm

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Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #339 on: February 07, 2015, 05:06:24 PM »
Not getting your children (or yourself) vaccinated is idiotic, and all available scientific knowledge clearly shows this to be the case.

With that being said, the government should NOT be mandating fluids to be injected into one's body against one's will. Personal liberty comes first. I'm fine with excluding unvaccinated people from public places, or whatever is necessary, but the government has no business doing something with forcing something into someone's body against their will.

My husband was vaccinated as a child, but now has a chronic illness that he needs to take immunosuppressant drugs for, for the rest of his life. As a consequence he is unable to be vaccinated against anything that has worn off. What he's got now is it for him.

So you're ok with people like him, kids with compromised immune systems etc. being excluded from public places? Really?

Vaccines do have some very rare side effects. I just looked it up on PubMed and it looks like some people think one of them could be auto-immune disorders, though I'm not sure you're husband would qualify since it developed so much later in life!

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20193633

Thanks for your feedback, but it's not an autoimmune disorder, it's a genetic condition that he had months before he was vaccinated. Yes, even before he was born. I don't recall saying it developed much later in life. FYI (not that you need to know) he has polycystic kidney disease which has resulted in him needing a kidney transplant and subsequent anti-rejection drugs.

Maybe you could google that too, since you seem to be so on the ball with the Google-foo.

His condition was not caused by immunisations. You're wrong.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2015, 05:09:06 PM by Primm »

Gin1984

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Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #340 on: February 07, 2015, 05:07:57 PM »
Not getting your children (or yourself) vaccinated is idiotic, and all available scientific knowledge clearly shows this to be the case.

With that being said, the government should NOT be mandating fluids to be injected into one's body against one's will. Personal liberty comes first. I'm fine with excluding unvaccinated people from public places, or whatever is necessary, but the government has no business doing something with forcing something into someone's body against their will.

My husband was vaccinated as a child, but now has a chronic illness that he needs to take immunosuppressant drugs for, for the rest of his life. As a consequence he is unable to be vaccinated against anything that has worn off. What he's got now is it for him.

So you're ok with people like him, kids with compromised immune systems etc. being excluded from public places? Really?

Vaccines do have some very rare side effects. I just looked it up on PubMed and it looks like some people think one of them could be auto-immune disorders, though I'm not sure you're husband would qualify since it developed so much later in life!

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20193633

Thanks for your feedback, but it's not an autoimmune disorder, it's a genetic condition that he had months before he was vaccinated. I don't recall saying it developed much later in life. FYI (not that you need to know) he has polycystic kidney disease which has resulted in him needing a kidney transplant and subsequent anti-rejection drugs.

Maybe you could google that too, since you seem to be so on the ball with the Google-foo.

Not caused by immunisations. You're wrong.
Ouch.  That is horrible, I am sorry your husband deals with that. 

Primm

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Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #341 on: February 07, 2015, 05:10:31 PM »
Thanks Gin. But apparently since he can't have his immunisations brought up to date because of his suppressed immune system, and because if he contracts a disease like measles it WILL kill him, we're supposed to just stay home?

Yeah, how about the rest of you fuckers JUST GET IMMUNISED!

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Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #342 on: February 07, 2015, 05:16:53 PM »
Thanks Gin. But apparently since he can't have his immunisations brought up to date because of his suppressed immune system, and because if he contracts a disease like measles it WILL kill him, we're supposed to just stay home?

Yeah, how about the rest of you fuckers JUST GET IMMUNISED!

+1,000,000

This is how anti-vaxxers come across to me:
http://robertmoorejr.tumblr.com/post/110101466091/im-an-anti-braker

Primm

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Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #343 on: February 07, 2015, 05:31:06 PM »

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Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #344 on: February 07, 2015, 05:35:27 PM »

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Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #345 on: February 07, 2015, 05:45:20 PM »
It has not helped that some stupid movie stars have stated that vaccines caused autism in their child & people actually believe that crap.  Yes we have a moral obligation to get vaccinated unless there is a good medical reason not to and it is not the same as being asked to give all your retirement $ away.  Getting vaccinated is a minor thing -the other is not.

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Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #347 on: February 10, 2015, 02:46:43 AM »
Thank you Astatine for your funny link.

I recently saw a letter to the editor for a major Australian newspaper which suggested that parents who refuse to vaccinate their children be accused of child abuse.


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Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #348 on: February 10, 2015, 08:00:48 AM »

AlanStache

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Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #349 on: February 10, 2015, 10:25:04 AM »
Am only on page 6 of this thread so maybe this got posted already - if it is out of place apologies.

http://i.imgur.com/FMBmJY2.jpg