Author Topic: MAGA and the Billionaires - a tale of resentment and contempt  (Read 15483 times)

PeteD01

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MAGA and the Billionaires - a tale of resentment and contempt
« on: December 27, 2024, 08:56:36 AM »
Got to say that I like what I'm seeing and it's happening earlier than I thought it would.
At this point, the contentious issue is the need for qualified tech workers on the part of big tech that apparently can't be satisfied without expanding the H1-B visa program, meaning more immigration primarily from India.
Of course, the contempt the billionaire class has for MAGA (and for America as we know it) was put on display:

Vivek Ramaswamy
@VivekGRamaswamy


The reason top tech companies often hire foreign-born & first-generation engineers over “native” Americans isn’t because of an innate American IQ deficit (a lazy & wrong explanation). A key part of it comes down to the c-word: culture. Tough questions demand tough answers & if we’re really serious about fixing the problem, we have to confront the TRUTH:

Our American culture has venerated mediocrity over excellence for way too long (at least since the 90s and likely longer). That doesn’t start in college, it starts YOUNG.

A culture that celebrates the prom queen over the math olympiad champ, or the jock over the valedictorian, will not produce the best engineers.

A culture that venerates Cory from “Boy Meets World,” or Zach & Slater over Screech in “Saved by the Bell,” or ‘Stefan’ over Steve Urkel in “Family Matters,” will not produce the best engineers.

(Fact: I know *multiple* sets of immigrant parents in the 90s who actively limited how much their kids could watch those TV shows precisely because they promoted mediocrity…and their kids went on to become wildly successful STEM graduates).

More movies like Whiplash, fewer reruns of “Friends.” More math tutoring, fewer sleepovers. More weekend science competitions, fewer Saturday morning cartoons. More books, less TV. More creating, less “chillin.” More extracurriculars, less “hanging out at the mall.”

Most normal American parents look skeptically at “those kinds of parents.” More normal American kids view such “those kinds of kids” with scorn. If you grow up aspiring to normalcy, normalcy is what you will achieve.

Now close your eyes & visualize which families you knew in the 90s (or even now) who raise their kids according to one model versus the other. Be brutally honest.

“Normalcy” doesn’t cut it in a hyper-competitive global market for technical talent. And if we pretend like it does, we’ll have our asses handed to us by China.

This can be our Sputnik moment. We’ve awaken from slumber before & we can do it again. Trump’s election hopefully marks the beginning of a new golden era in America, but only if our culture fully wakes up. A culture that once again prioritizes achievement over normalcy; excellence over mediocrity; nerdiness over conformity; hard work over laziness.

That’s the work we have cut out for us, rather than wallowing in victimhood & just wishing (or legislating) alternative hiring practices into existence. I’m confident we can do it. 🇺🇸 🇺🇸


https://x.com/VivekGRamaswamy/status/1872312139945234507


But let's wait for the consequences that are still awaiting the MAGA crowd - soon they’ll find out that there is another bunch of billionaires waiting for their chance to fleece MAGA more than they can the "libs".

With Musk and Ramaswami having expertly primed the MAGA anger pump, it should not be too difficult to built on populist resentment of thieving billionaires.
That simmering resentment could easily cause infighting to go out of control when the policies start hitting MAGA pocket books.

Immigration and deportation policies proposed by Trump are so toxic for the economy that businesses are trying everything to gain influence in the coming Trump administration.
On the other hand, these same policies are so central for MAGA chumps that a fight seems unavoidable.

Meanwhile, Trump is frantically trying to redirect attention away from domestic issues by having an imperialistic fit ...


Vivek Ramaswamy slamming ‘mediocre’ American culture ignites MAGA civil war
By Tuhin Das Mahapatra
Dec 27, 2024

Vivek Ramaswamy ignited a storm of controversy Thursday with a social media post slamming US culture. His remarks disparaging prom queens, high school jocks, and even beloved 90s TV characters like Cory Matthews and Stefan Urquelle have sparked a backlash among MAGA loyalists.

https://www.hindustantimes.com/world-news/us-news/vivek-ramaswamy-slamming-mediocre-american-culture-ignites-maga-civil-war-101735275141004.html
« Last Edit: December 28, 2024, 05:58:09 AM by PeteD01 »

EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: MAGA and the Billionaires - a tale of resentment and contempt
« Reply #1 on: December 27, 2024, 09:52:02 AM »
posting to follow.  I just can't imagine Vivek and Elon having a reasonable discussion about anything.  Watching it all play out in Tweets is a nice bonus.

In this case, I agree 100% with Ramaswamy that America has been incredibly fortunate as beneficiary of the world's best and brightest.  If we could turn this benefit up to 11 while turning away all the 'bad immigrants' as well as kicking out some dead weight, that should be a great way for billionaires to scoop up even more financial security.  I just wonder why they think being vocal about it is a good idea, why not just try to do this quietly and more gradually?  Or maybe I'm overthinking this and the playbook is to overshow the hand only to make the dialed-back version that they actually wanted seem like a win-win...  It's quite possible that the chaos is intentional - barefaced oligarchy would be unacceptable, but oligarchy hidden in chaos is harder to fight.

Captain FIRE

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Re: MAGA and the Billionaires - a tale of resentment and contempt
« Reply #2 on: December 27, 2024, 10:09:37 AM »
Are they also planning on providing govt funding for that math tutoring, weekend science competitions, extracurriculars? Because that's pretty expensive.

My kid takes chess lessons - $225 for 8 weeks (1 hr). In the grand scheme of things, that's not too expensive compared to other options, but it's still unaffordable for a low income family. It's $100 for a 3 hr maker camp per day at a local science place over break. $400 for an 8-week after school class (75 mins), same place. $450 for 3 hr 1-week summer camp at a different local science place.

Oh wait, I forgot. According to Vance, the grandparents will pay, right?

PeteD01

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Re: MAGA and the Billionaires - a tale of resentment and contempt
« Reply #3 on: December 27, 2024, 11:11:58 AM »
Musk is suspending MAGA accounts on X/Twitter - hilarious if you ask me:


I'm LOVING That Maga Is In COMPLETE War
Tennessee Brando

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=43URFwP7yQM

MrGreen

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Re: MAGA and the Billionaires - a tale of resentment and contempt
« Reply #4 on: December 27, 2024, 11:53:57 AM »
Why would we expect a strong STEM pool when we don't even properly fund general education?

achvfi

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Re: MAGA and the Billionaires - a tale of resentment and contempt
« Reply #5 on: December 27, 2024, 12:02:34 PM »
Meanwhile, Trump is frantically trying to redirect attention away from domestic issues by having an imperialistic fit ...

Yeah, I picked up on that too. Age old tactic of dictators and tyrants. May be even laying out strategy to stay in power before next elections results in four years.

lhamo

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Re: MAGA and the Billionaires - a tale of resentment and contempt
« Reply #6 on: December 27, 2024, 12:06:17 PM »
Are they also planning on providing govt funding for that math tutoring, weekend science competitions, extracurriculars? Because that's pretty expensive.

My kid takes chess lessons - $225 for 8 weeks (1 hr). In the grand scheme of things, that's not too expensive compared to other options, but it's still unaffordable for a low income family. It's $100 for a 3 hr maker camp per day at a local science place over break. $400 for an 8-week after school class (75 mins), same place. $450 for 3 hr 1-week summer camp at a different local science place.

Oh wait, I forgot. According to Vance, the grandparents will pay, right?

We did pay for private school for our kids when we lived in China because local options were not a good fit.  But we didn't pay a ton for extracurriculars for them.  DS basically read on line whatever he was interested in, taught himself chess and programming, and ended up in the early entrance program at the University of Washington and, now, in a Ph.D. program in CS at Berkeley.  DD joined the robotics team at her high school (we were back in the US by then) and is now in Mechanical Engineering at the UW.

The local libraries and parks department have a lot of STEM related stuff for low- or no-cost.  School clubs here are often mentored by local tech folk -- that was the case for DD's robotics team. 

Can you pay a lot for extracurriculars?  Sure.  But you don't have to in many parts of the country.


reeshau

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Re: MAGA and the Billionaires - a tale of resentment and contempt
« Reply #7 on: December 27, 2024, 12:14:57 PM »
Why would we expect a strong STEM pool when we don't even properly fund general education?

The Wall Street Journal had picked up on this discussion.  Reported tweets:

Musk: "There is a dire shortage of talented and motivated engineers in America."

User: "Open a school.  We have brains."

Musk: "If you need a school, you've lost already."

Later, Musk clarified what he was doing:

"...bringing in via legal immigration the top ~0.1% of engineering talent as being essential for America to keep winning."

Laura Loomer, voice of reason? replying, after looking at posted Tesla jobs for H1-B holders:

"So, you're telling me that $70k per year entry level jobs are .1% level talent?"


ChpBstrd

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Re: MAGA and the Billionaires - a tale of resentment and contempt
« Reply #8 on: December 27, 2024, 12:30:39 PM »
The billionaire oligarchs and the blue-collar base will always be odd bedfellows. They will have to find new uses for one another now that the Party has complete control over all branches of government.

Historically, the blue-collar base has used the billionaires as psychological role models. The base expresses their desires to get rich and have status over other people through affinity with the billionaires, in the hopes that some of their luck will rub off, or the hope some sort of direct payment will occur, such as a raise or stock market boost. When you hear the term "successful businessman", this is an expression of the idea that having money equals competence and wisdom. The base spends their lives trying to figure out money, so it makes sense to them that only a smart person could do this well.

Meanwhile the billionaires have historically had a use for the blue-collar base too. Primarily this use includes voting, donating, and generating ad revenue on the billionaires' social media platforms. The base are the people you as a billionaire seek to manipulate. They are, in the billionaire's minds, both fools and the gatekeepers to power.

The friction is occurring because the billionaires have a very different mindset than the blue-collar base. Ramaswamy and Musk express a desire for their employees to perform with excellence, because that attitude was critical to building their financial empires. They are now treating the base like they are employees.

The blue-collar base is having none of it. They voted Trump so that they wouldn't have to be excellent or work hard. Deporting immigrants and building the wall was supposed to leave employers with no other choice than to hire the blue-collar base at higher wages. The casual racism was supposed to create a superior white caste, an honor it would be unnecessary to work for. And the whole stream of excuses about how the "woke mob" was poisoning everything offered those who habitually resist self-accountability an easy explanation that they could accept. MAGA was never about self-improvement or high achievement for the blue-collar base. It was about venting grievances and frustrations onto scapegoats like immigrants, liberals, and China.

Now we have the DOGE group trying to tell the base that they need to change (specifically, become more workaholic) like some kind of bootstraps-believing boss at work. However, the base still believes what they were told about how the elimination of the scapegoats will lead to national and personal greatness without any hard work involved.

To the base, this talk about H1 visas being necessary for industrial policy or their favorite cultural memes being counterproductive sounds like backsliding. The billionaires are probably right about America's loser-celebrating culture, but they ran for office on scapegoating - not on the base putting in extra hours or tutoring their kids.

Trump's challenge is to rein in these voices and keep the message on the scapegoats. Deportations, trade wars with China, and annoying liberals could easily consume the next 4 years and give the base hope to vote for in the 2028 elections, if there are elections. And if Trump or his progeny is to overturn term limits and become a dictator, the path to that outcome is paved with scapegoats, not self-improvement bullshit spoken by out-of-touch rich people.

The American right is overdue for a night of the long knives or Stalinist purge anyway. The DOGE crew better watch themselves or they might become the next scapegoats. Perhaps Trump would like the look of the courageous leader who banished the treasonous woke billionaires. They are, after all, breaking the first rule of politics which is to always blame someone else.

Ron Scott

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Re: MAGA and the Billionaires - a tale of resentment and contempt
« Reply #9 on: December 27, 2024, 01:15:10 PM »
Mr. Vivek:

Try considering America’s strengths:

1. It’s by far the most successful economy. Even today, when it’s struggling politically, its economy is the envy of the world.
2. It’s the global hub for higher education.
3. Its military power is in a class of its own and is getting stronger.
4. Its artistic influence—music, film, television, and popular culture—dominates globally.
5. Its entrepreneurs—in Silicon Valley, Route 28, NYC, etc.—are world-leading and attract more investment from financial centers worldwide than any other country.
6. Its tops in philanthropy.
7. It’s the world leader in science, technology, space exploration.
8. Its agricultural productivity—combining farming and technology—is world-class.
9. It’s the most ethnically diverse country on earth and despite challenges it’s still a true melting pot that draws strength from new ideas.

So Vivek, you can keep whatever shit you’ve been filling your pipe with while the rest of us still consider you the lowest of Trump’s multiple dingleberries. You’re a schmuck…

PeteD01

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Re: MAGA and the Billionaires - a tale of resentment and contempt
« Reply #10 on: December 27, 2024, 01:46:52 PM »
Not to be left out of the brawl, here we have steve Bannon (for non-US readers: Steve Bannon is kind of a MAGA intellectual with street cred, not to be underestimated but a crook at heart) taking, unsurprisingly, the populist position:


Steve Bannon Joins War Against Elon Musk as MAGA Implodes
Donald Trump’s biggest fans are at each other’s throats over immigration, and H-1B visas in particular.

“H-1B visas? That’s not what it’s about. It’s about taking American jobs and bringing over essentially what have become indentured servants at lower wages,” said Bannon. “This thing’s a scam by the oligarchs in Silicon Valley to basically take jobs from American citizens, give them to what become indentured servants from foreign countries, and then pay ‘em less. Simple. To let them in through the golden door.”

https://newrepublic.com/post/189694/steve-bannon-maga-war-elon-musk-immigration

sixwings

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Re: MAGA and the Billionaires - a tale of resentment and contempt
« Reply #11 on: December 27, 2024, 01:48:28 PM »
This is all just a distraction from the smash and grab that is being planned by the billionaires. Keep people fighting over the H1 visa programs, that Elon and co have little/no control over while you cut labor regulations and make auto manufacturing impossible for anyone who isn't Tesla.

Financial.Velociraptor

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Re: MAGA and the Billionaires - a tale of resentment and contempt
« Reply #12 on: December 27, 2024, 01:50:35 PM »
I still can't get a fix on what Bannon is really about.  Sure, exploitation.  But this is the same guy who was pivotal to BiosphereII, had a hand in cellular getting built out in the US, and other big infrastructure things there were more pollyanna style investing.  Was he an idealist who has just slowly gotten more and more jaded?

Ron Scott

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Re: MAGA and the Billionaires - a tale of resentment and contempt
« Reply #13 on: December 27, 2024, 01:59:16 PM »
Aside from Ratherswampy’s stupid cultural comment this is much ado about nothing and has more to do with America’s insatiable demand for tech talent.

Depending on how you define higher ed, America basically ranks #1 in comparison to the other high population countries in the world. But do to our booming tech industry the demand for talent is incredible.

It’s tiring how the media spins this stuff tho.


Dave1442397

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Re: MAGA and the Billionaires - a tale of resentment and contempt
« Reply #14 on: December 27, 2024, 02:02:42 PM »
Not to be left out of the brawl, here we have steve Bannon (for non-US readers: Steve Bannon is kind of a MAGA intellectual with street cred, not to be underestimated but a crook at heart) taking, unsurprisingly, the populist position:


Steve Bannon Joins War Against Elon Musk as MAGA Implodes
Donald Trump’s biggest fans are at each other’s throats over immigration, and H-1B visas in particular.

“H-1B visas? That’s not what it’s about. It’s about taking American jobs and bringing over essentially what have become indentured servants at lower wages,” said Bannon. “This thing’s a scam by the oligarchs in Silicon Valley to basically take jobs from American citizens, give them to what become indentured servants from foreign countries, and then pay ‘em less. Simple. To let them in through the golden door.”

https://newrepublic.com/post/189694/steve-bannon-maga-war-elon-musk-immigration

He's not wrong. My current company used to have a lot of H-1B programmers. They didn't work directly for my company, but were contracted out by an Indian company. It didn't take long for them to figure out just how underpaid they were compared to us, and they resented it. They weren't free to change jobs - it was either deal with it or go home.

I know a couple that managed to get a Green Card and get better-paid jobs, but most of them just tried to save as much as possible for a few years and then went back to India.

Our company went and bought an Indian contracting company outright, then opened offices over there and brought those people in to work for us. They've been working on a rewrite of the software I work on since 2015. It was supposed to ready to go in 2022, and now they're saying the end of 2026. A lot of their programmers have left for other jobs over the past few years, so I think they're still wildly optimistic. Time will tell.

PeteD01

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Re: MAGA and the Billionaires - a tale of resentment and contempt
« Reply #15 on: December 27, 2024, 02:14:35 PM »
...

He's not wrong. My current company used to have a lot of H-1B programmers. They didn't work directly for my company, but were contracted out by an Indian company. It didn't take long for them to figure out just how underpaid they were compared to us, and they resented it. They weren't free to change jobs - it was either deal with it or go home.

...

No, he's not wrong at all and the crack is appearing right where it was supposed to.

Economic elites have usually operated under the illusion that they can manage the political leadership on the extreme right.
Steve Bannon is educated enough to anticipate that and also the ignorance of economic elites when it comes to political power.

Of course, Dunning-Kruger affected idiots like Musk and Ramaswamy walked it right out into the open because of their ignorance of these matters.

startingout

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Re: MAGA and the Billionaires - a tale of resentment and contempt
« Reply #16 on: December 27, 2024, 10:00:27 PM »
I disagree with Vivek and Elon on the policies they want to bring forth, but I too have always wondered why most Americans look up to the prom queens and jocks of the world. They would rather their kids be athletic and popular in school than end up as nerds. They sign their kids up for sports that take up 20 hours a week and cost $XX,XXX a year, instead of saving that money for college or spending it on a tutor. Many kids who compete at the elite level in sports are homeschooled. And the homeschooling they do receive just covers the academic basics so they can dedicate 6-8 hours a day to their sport. What are the chances that any kid will be able to make a living as an athlete? Almost none. The median professional athlete barely scrapes by, and is riddled with injuries. Whereas the median professional in any nerdy field makes a very comfortable living. I don't think parents should push their kids into careers they have no interest in, of course. But why do both parents and kids care so much about athleticism and popularity when most of it is fleeting?

sixwings

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Re: MAGA and the Billionaires - a tale of resentment and contempt
« Reply #17 on: December 27, 2024, 10:21:50 PM »
I disagree with Vivek and Elon on the policies they want to bring forth, but I too have always wondered why most Americans look up to the prom queens and jocks of the world. They would rather their kids be athletic and popular in school than end up as nerds. They sign their kids up for sports that take up 20 hours a week and cost $XX,XXX a year, instead of saving that money for college or spending it on a tutor. Many kids who compete at the elite level in sports are homeschooled. And the homeschooling they do receive just covers the academic basics so they can dedicate 6-8 hours a day to their sport. What are the chances that any kid will be able to make a living as an athlete? Almost none. The median professional athlete barely scrapes by, and is riddled with injuries. Whereas the median professional in any nerdy field makes a very comfortable living. I don't think parents should push their kids into careers they have no interest in, of course. But why do both parents and kids care so much about athleticism and popularity when most of it is fleeting?

How common do you really think that is? I feel like parents going all in like that on their children becoming pro-athletes is pretty rare, probably far more rare than parents who are pushing their kids academically. Most parents are just letting their children do what they enjoy doing, and for most children, sitting at a desk studying is not fun. Humans are evolved to be constantly moving and performing athletics, seems reasonable that's what kids want to do more.

startingout

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Re: MAGA and the Billionaires - a tale of resentment and contempt
« Reply #18 on: December 27, 2024, 11:54:05 PM »

How common do you really think that is? I feel like parents going all in like that on their children becoming pro-athletes is pretty rare, probably far more rare than parents who are pushing their kids academically. Most parents are just letting their children do what they enjoy doing, and for most children, sitting at a desk studying is not fun. Humans are evolved to be constantly moving and performing athletics, seems reasonable that's what kids want to do more.

I'm not sure how common it is, but kids who are serious about ballet, competitive dance, gymnastics, and figure skating routinely spend 20 hours a week on their sports. And their parents often spend 5 figures a year once all the travel fees to competitions are included. A single Irish dance costume can cost $3,000.

An example: "Raising A Ballerina Will Cost You $100,000" (in 2015)
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/high-price-of-ballet-diversity-misty-copeland/
« Last Edit: December 28, 2024, 12:03:25 AM by startingout »

rocketpj

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Re: MAGA and the Billionaires - a tale of resentment and contempt
« Reply #19 on: December 28, 2024, 12:53:21 AM »
One of my kids is/was one of those 'competitive athletes' that spent most of his high school years living elsewhere on elite teams and doing athletics focused programs.  He's doing fine.  That path had nothing to do with anything coming from us (aside from $$), it was entirely driven by him.  He knew at age 12 his chance of making it to the 'paid' level of this particular sport was miniscule, and at this point it is clearly not going to happen.  I regret nothing - he was a kid that would have been all in on something, and without sports it could easily have been something a lot less positive.

The point should be obvious - if you aren't into something and don't 'get' it don't automatically assume it is a bad choice.

PeteD01

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Re: MAGA and the Billionaires - a tale of resentment and contempt
« Reply #20 on: December 28, 2024, 05:48:01 AM »
Elon Musk calls his MAGA critics "contemptible fools" and wants to fire them from the Republican party.
He seems to think the GOP is one of his companies ...

‘Contemptible fools’: Elon Musk escalates MAGA rift
Erik De La Garza
December 27, 2024

"Yes,” Musk replied. “And those contemptible fools must be removed from the Republican Party, root and stem.”

https://www.rawstory.com/elon-musk-2670691861/?utm_source=superhead

reeshau

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Re: MAGA and the Billionaires - a tale of resentment and contempt
« Reply #21 on: December 28, 2024, 07:48:07 AM »
Elon might not get as warm a reception at the next Trump rally...

PeteD01

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Re: MAGA and the Billionaires - a tale of resentment and contempt
« Reply #22 on: December 28, 2024, 08:23:15 AM »
Elon might not get as warm a reception at the next Trump rally...

Well, Musk and Ramaswamy are not the sharpest knives in the drawer and are out of touch.

It doesn´t take a genius to figure out that the MAGA movement is a hodgepodge of incompatible factions that are held together by good old-fashioned American anti-intellectualism and nativism in the tradition of the defunct Know-Nothing Party and later nativist, white supremacist/nativist movements like the Klan and the  America First Committee and others.

All these previous incarnations of right wing extremism were notable for serious internal contradictions between factions in the absence of a coherent ideology.
The glue that held these movement together, for a while, was nativism/racism, anti-intellectualism and a dollop of isolationism.
Conspiracy theories come easy in such movements because it gives them something to talk about without having to look in the mirror.

MAGA is all of these things.

So, attacking MAGA for its anti-intellectualism and xenophobia/racism is quite frankly foolish because it's an attack that aims at the core of MAGA - but what can one expect from out of touch billionaires.

MAGA, in its fractious, chaotic and contradictory state, is no different from historic predecessors and contemporary incarnations.
These movements are always in need of a strongman as a canvas for their projections and who maintains a climate of threat and violence as a means of enforcing discipline.

Trump is making a show out of made up foreign policy issues and appears to be avoiding the problem - which happens to be the job of a strongman.

I guess Trump is playing a strongman but is actually a puffed up weakman who does not know what to do with fearfully rich Elon Musk and MAGA rage.

I don't think scatterbrained Trump is up to the task, but we'll see.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2024, 08:28:02 AM by PeteD01 »

Cranky

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Re: MAGA and the Billionaires - a tale of resentment and contempt
« Reply #23 on: December 28, 2024, 08:44:11 AM »
I disagree with Vivek and Elon on the policies they want to bring forth, but I too have always wondered why most Americans look up to the prom queens and jocks of the world. They would rather their kids be athletic and popular in school than end up as nerds. They sign their kids up for sports that take up 20 hours a week and cost $XX,XXX a year, instead of saving that money for college or spending it on a tutor. Many kids who compete at the elite level in sports are homeschooled. And the homeschooling they do receive just covers the academic basics so they can dedicate 6-8 hours a day to their sport. What are the chances that any kid will be able to make a living as an athlete? Almost none. The median professional athlete barely scrapes by, and is riddled with injuries. Whereas the median professional in any nerdy field makes a very comfortable living. I don't think parents should push their kids into careers they have no interest in, of course. But why do both parents and kids care so much about athleticism and popularity when most of it is fleeting?

How common do you really think that is? I feel like parents going all in like that on their children becoming pro-athletes is pretty rare, probably far more rare than parents who are pushing their kids academically. Most parents are just letting their children do what they enjoy doing, and for most children, sitting at a desk studying is not fun. Humans are evolved to be constantly moving and performing athletics, seems reasonable that's what kids want to do more.

I vehemently disagree, and I was a classroom teacher. FAR more parents think that their kid will go to college on a soccer scholarship than an academic scholarship and far more working class parents hope for an career in athletics or popular music than for one in engineering.

Captain FIRE

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Re: MAGA and the Billionaires - a tale of resentment and contempt
« Reply #24 on: December 28, 2024, 11:30:40 AM »
Are they also planning on providing govt funding for that math tutoring, weekend science competitions, extracurriculars? Because that's pretty expensive.

My kid takes chess lessons - $225 for 8 weeks (1 hr). In the grand scheme of things, that's not too expensive compared to other options, but it's still unaffordable for a low income family. It's $100 for a 3 hr maker camp per day at a local science place over break. $400 for an 8-week after school class (75 mins), same place. $450 for 3 hr 1-week summer camp at a different local science place.

Oh wait, I forgot. According to Vance, the grandparents will pay, right?

We did pay for private school for our kids when we lived in China because local options were not a good fit.  But we didn't pay a ton for extracurriculars for them.  DS basically read on line whatever he was interested in, taught himself chess and programming, and ended up in the early entrance program at the University of Washington and, now, in a Ph.D. program in CS at Berkeley.  DD joined the robotics team at her high school (we were back in the US by then) and is now in Mechanical Engineering at the UW.

The local libraries and parks department have a lot of STEM related stuff for low- or no-cost.  School clubs here are often mentored by local tech folk -- that was the case for DD's robotics team. 

Can you pay a lot for extracurriculars?  Sure.  But you don't have to in many parts of the country.

A lot of low or no cost STEM activities? You are lucky to have that near you. I don't think it's that common.

I checked the programming at my library the past few months. They have a free 45 minute STEM session once a month. Not sure if that's a repeat activities to build skills or the same thing each time though.

The town rec department also does chess, and it's actually $2 more per hour than the class we have him in. It's also much less educational (they dress up in chess costumes?) while the one my kid is in is taught by an international chess master with years of teaching experience. So there can be a quality issue with going with those classes. There is a town rec STEM class for 8 weeks, $245. A little cheaper than the above prices, but I wouldn't call that low cost.

Yes some kids can teach themselves, but a lot can't, and a lot of parents can't help either (lack of knowledge, time, energy, teaching ability etc.)

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Re: MAGA and the Billionaires - a tale of resentment and contempt
« Reply #25 on: December 28, 2024, 12:06:25 PM »
The fee for DS to be on his school,'s Lego robotics league team is $60.  Plus an optional $15 team shirt, which I support for the team building.  They met once a week for most of the fall, but have been accelerating as their first tournament is is two weeks.

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Re: MAGA and the Billionaires - a tale of resentment and contempt
« Reply #26 on: December 30, 2024, 06:52:33 AM »
Are they also planning on providing govt funding for that math tutoring, weekend science competitions, extracurriculars? Because that's pretty expensive.

My kid takes chess lessons - $225 for 8 weeks (1 hr). In the grand scheme of things, that's not too expensive compared to other options, but it's still unaffordable for a low income family. It's $100 for a 3 hr maker camp per day at a local science place over break. $400 for an 8-week after school class (75 mins), same place. $450 for 3 hr 1-week summer camp at a different local science place.

Oh wait, I forgot. According to Vance, the grandparents will pay, right?

We did pay for private school for our kids when we lived in China because local options were not a good fit.  But we didn't pay a ton for extracurriculars for them.  DS basically read on line whatever he was interested in, taught himself chess and programming, and ended up in the early entrance program at the University of Washington and, now, in a Ph.D. program in CS at Berkeley.  DD joined the robotics team at her high school (we were back in the US by then) and is now in Mechanical Engineering at the UW.

The local libraries and parks department have a lot of STEM related stuff for low- or no-cost.  School clubs here are often mentored by local tech folk -- that was the case for DD's robotics team. 

Can you pay a lot for extracurriculars?  Sure.  But you don't have to in many parts of the country.

A lot of low or no cost STEM activities? You are lucky to have that near you. I don't think it's that common.

I checked the programming at my library the past few months. They have a free 45 minute STEM session once a month. Not sure if that's a repeat activities to build skills or the same thing each time though.

The town rec department also does chess, and it's actually $2 more per hour than the class we have him in. It's also much less educational (they dress up in chess costumes?) while the one my kid is in is taught by an international chess master with years of teaching experience. So there can be a quality issue with going with those classes. There is a town rec STEM class for 8 weeks, $245. A little cheaper than the above prices, but I wouldn't call that low cost.

Yes some kids can teach themselves, but a lot can't, and a lot of parents can't help either (lack of knowledge, time, energy, teaching ability etc.)

I went to school in the US and I remember attending chess club, lunchtime maths enrichment sessions, and Media Club after school for no fee. There were also pretty low fee options for extension activities including the American Maths Comp/Maths Olympiad stuff (though I wasn't good enough to get into the latter) and then if you tested well at school you would get sent to the Johns Hopkins CTY/SET programs which were for academically strong children and were pretty cheap to enter. I get that if your parents are impoverished, then all of these things may not be options for you, but for any kid from a vaguely middle class background, the cost isn't prohibitive.


reeshau

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Re: MAGA and the Billionaires - a tale of resentment and contempt
« Reply #27 on: December 30, 2024, 11:00:14 AM »
Rex Huppke of USA Today wallows in the mud slung from the back-and-forth between DOGE and MAGA.

I don't think I could last 4 years of this, but if this is triumph I'll pass.  I do wonder where the rage machine will turn, if they decide Trump isn't their man.

Who the heck knows what will happen in January, much less by 2026?

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Re: MAGA and the Billionaires - a tale of resentment and contempt
« Reply #28 on: December 30, 2024, 12:17:01 PM »
Are they also planning on providing govt funding for that math tutoring, weekend science competitions, extracurriculars? Because that's pretty expensive.

My kid takes chess lessons - $225 for 8 weeks (1 hr). In the grand scheme of things, that's not too expensive compared to other options, but it's still unaffordable for a low income family. It's $100 for a 3 hr maker camp per day at a local science place over break. $400 for an 8-week after school class (75 mins), same place. $450 for 3 hr 1-week summer camp at a different local science place.

Oh wait, I forgot. According to Vance, the grandparents will pay, right?

We did pay for private school for our kids when we lived in China because local options were not a good fit.  But we didn't pay a ton for extracurriculars for them.  DS basically read on line whatever he was interested in, taught himself chess and programming, and ended up in the early entrance program at the University of Washington and, now, in a Ph.D. program in CS at Berkeley.  DD joined the robotics team at her high school (we were back in the US by then) and is now in Mechanical Engineering at the UW.

The local libraries and parks department have a lot of STEM related stuff for low- or no-cost.  School clubs here are often mentored by local tech folk -- that was the case for DD's robotics team. 

Can you pay a lot for extracurriculars?  Sure.  But you don't have to in many parts of the country.

A lot of low or no cost STEM activities? You are lucky to have that near you. I don't think it's that common.

I checked the programming at my library the past few months. They have a free 45 minute STEM session once a month. Not sure if that's a repeat activities to build skills or the same thing each time though.

The town rec department also does chess, and it's actually $2 more per hour than the class we have him in. It's also much less educational (they dress up in chess costumes?) while the one my kid is in is taught by an international chess master with years of teaching experience. So there can be a quality issue with going with those classes. There is a town rec STEM class for 8 weeks, $245. A little cheaper than the above prices, but I wouldn't call that low cost.

Yes some kids can teach themselves, but a lot can't, and a lot of parents can't help either (lack of knowledge, time, energy, teaching ability etc.)

I went to school in the US and I remember attending chess club, lunchtime maths enrichment sessions, and Media Club after school for no fee. There were also pretty low fee options for extension activities including the American Maths Comp/Maths Olympiad stuff (though I wasn't good enough to get into the latter) and then if you tested well at school you would get sent to the Johns Hopkins CTY/SET programs which were for academically strong children and were pretty cheap to enter. I get that if your parents are impoverished, then all of these things may not be options for you, but for any kid from a vaguely middle class background, the cost isn't prohibitive.

The problem is that most people only know about their own experiences. Your experience is nothing at all like mine was (graduated in 2007). My school was in rural Ohio, in the middle of MAGA country where I doubt anyone ever votes blue for anything. We had sports but nothing academic at all for extracurriculars. In fact, my school didn't start offering foreign languages until 9th grade (and only Spanish) and they didn't have any AP classes at all. I transferred from another school that at least had a minor honors program and I took the highest senior math class my junior year. I took the highest level of Spanish my sophomore year. My family was very low income and if someone wasn't offered for free at school then I didn't have the opportunity to experience it.  I was one the very few to go to college, and the first person in my family to graduate from undergrad and then grad school. I study education inequality and I think a lot of MAGA voters in rural areas have experiences more similar to mine than to yours.

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Re: MAGA and the Billionaires - a tale of resentment and contempt
« Reply #29 on: December 30, 2024, 02:40:43 PM »
Oligarchy 101, keeping Americans uneducated to goose profits and using MAGA anti-intellectualism to get there - don't know what's so secret about it, but here we go:


ELON FINALLY EXPOSES HIS SECRET PLOT
Adam Mockler
Dec 30, 2024

Adam Mockler and Ben Meiselas with the MeidasTouch Network break down Donald Trump relationship with his largest donor, Elon Musk, and how DOGE is a cover up.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XwKcLc168fg
« Last Edit: December 30, 2024, 04:05:58 PM by PeteD01 »

twinstudy

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Re: MAGA and the Billionaires - a tale of resentment and contempt
« Reply #30 on: December 30, 2024, 04:19:10 PM »
The problem is that most people only know about their own experiences. Your experience is nothing at all like mine was (graduated in 2007). My school was in rural Ohio, in the middle of MAGA country where I doubt anyone ever votes blue for anything. We had sports but nothing academic at all for extracurriculars. In fact, my school didn't start offering foreign languages until 9th grade (and only Spanish) and they didn't have any AP classes at all. I transferred from another school that at least had a minor honors program and I took the highest senior math class my junior year. I took the highest level of Spanish my sophomore year. My family was very low income and if someone wasn't offered for free at school then I didn't have the opportunity to experience it.  I was one the very few to go to college, and the first person in my family to graduate from undergrad and then grad school. I study education inequality and I think a lot of MAGA voters in rural areas have experiences more similar to mine than to yours.

That's sad. I wish there was more emphasis put on education at all levels. It can't be that expensive to have a well-funded school system. In particular, having things like free lunch programs and free testing for gifted programs, as well as engagement activities aimed at those from a non-English speaking background or those whose families aren't academically engaged.

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Re: MAGA and the Billionaires - a tale of resentment and contempt
« Reply #31 on: December 31, 2024, 08:18:35 AM »
There is also a serious lack of empathy in the social media age.  You don't need to live someone else's experience to understand somewhat where they are coming from, but our imaginations have been replaced with emotional triggers.  We are so busy feeling outraged, afraid, and overwhelmed that we don't have the space and emotional energy to wonder what is going on with people in our own community.  Instead of getting back to the middle, we drift further to black and white simplifications to help us process all this input.

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Re: MAGA and the Billionaires - a tale of resentment and contempt
« Reply #32 on: December 31, 2024, 11:04:47 AM »
I'm with you, @PeteD01 ! Thanks for starting this thread. It is delightful.

I know I should find a more diplomatic way of addressing this, so apologies in advance...

Bannon, Musk, Ramaswamy, Vance, Thiel, Kash, et al. are geniuses at saying stupid things loudly.

I tried to understand Thiel's philosophy and the closest I can come is he is in that subset of gay men who passionately hate women. There is no coherence to his views otherwise.

Bannon just wants to destroy.

That said, Musk and Ramaswamy being allied over H-1Bs is a sign of one thing I had hoped, which is that the 2nd Trump cabinet was going to be less treason-adjacent than the first.

There were plenty of conservative politicians who were able to articulate interesting positions in the past. Where did they all go?
« Last Edit: December 31, 2024, 01:00:23 PM by Fru-Gal »

Fru-Gal

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Re: MAGA and the Billionaires - a tale of resentment and contempt
« Reply #33 on: December 31, 2024, 11:09:08 AM »
"contemptible fools" = "basket of deplorables"

Fru-Gal

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Re: MAGA and the Billionaires - a tale of resentment and contempt
« Reply #34 on: December 31, 2024, 11:12:09 AM »
Mr. Vivek:

Try considering America’s strengths:

1. It’s by far the most successful economy. Even today, when it’s struggling politically, its economy is the envy of the world.
2. It’s the global hub for higher education.
3. Its military power is in a class of its own and is getting stronger.
4. Its artistic influence—music, film, television, and popular culture—dominates globally.
5. Its entrepreneurs—in Silicon Valley, Route 28, NYC, etc.—are world-leading and attract more investment from financial centers worldwide than any other country.
6. Its tops in philanthropy.
7. It’s the world leader in science, technology, space exploration.
8. Its agricultural productivity—combining farming and technology—is world-class.
9. It’s the most ethnically diverse country on earth and despite challenges it’s still a true melting pot that draws strength from new ideas.


Mr. Ron, I agree with this list!
« Last Edit: December 31, 2024, 11:15:04 AM by Fru-Gal »

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Re: MAGA and the Billionaires - a tale of resentment and contempt
« Reply #35 on: December 31, 2024, 11:49:27 AM »
I tried to understand Thiel's philosophy and the closest I can come is he is in that subset of gay men who passionately hate women. There is no coherence to his views otherwise.

Scooby Doo villain: "If it wasn't for women and their right to vote, we'd have a libertarian paradise!"*


* Paraphrased from https://www.cato-unbound.org/2009/04/13/peter-thiel/education-libertarian/

Fru-Gal

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Re: MAGA and the Billionaires - a tale of resentment and contempt
« Reply #36 on: December 31, 2024, 01:02:54 PM »
It’s also been interesting to see how much the public considers Musk’s recent parading of little X (who looks just like his mama Grimes, OMG) as using him as a human shield in the age of CEO murders and Trump assassination attempts. Insane times.

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Re: MAGA and the Billionaires - a tale of resentment and contempt
« Reply #37 on: January 01, 2025, 08:33:34 AM »
Are they also planning on providing govt funding for that math tutoring, weekend science competitions, extracurriculars? Because that's pretty expensive.

My kid takes chess lessons - $225 for 8 weeks (1 hr). In the grand scheme of things, that's not too expensive compared to other options, but it's still unaffordable for a low income family. It's $100 for a 3 hr maker camp per day at a local science place over break. $400 for an 8-week after school class (75 mins), same place. $450 for 3 hr 1-week summer camp at a different local science place.

Oh wait, I forgot. According to Vance, the grandparents will pay, right?

We did pay for private school for our kids when we lived in China because local options were not a good fit.  But we didn't pay a ton for extracurriculars for them.  DS basically read on line whatever he was interested in, taught himself chess and programming, and ended up in the early entrance program at the University of Washington and, now, in a Ph.D. program in CS at Berkeley.  DD joined the robotics team at her high school (we were back in the US by then) and is now in Mechanical Engineering at the UW.

The local libraries and parks department have a lot of STEM related stuff for low- or no-cost.  School clubs here are often mentored by local tech folk -- that was the case for DD's robotics team. 

Can you pay a lot for extracurriculars?  Sure.  But you don't have to in many parts of the country.

A lot of low or no cost STEM activities? You are lucky to have that near you. I don't think it's that common.

I checked the programming at my library the past few months. They have a free 45 minute STEM session once a month. Not sure if that's a repeat activities to build skills or the same thing each time though.

The town rec department also does chess, and it's actually $2 more per hour than the class we have him in. It's also much less educational (they dress up in chess costumes?) while the one my kid is in is taught by an international chess master with years of teaching experience. So there can be a quality issue with going with those classes. There is a town rec STEM class for 8 weeks, $245. A little cheaper than the above prices, but I wouldn't call that low cost.

Yes some kids can teach themselves, but a lot can't, and a lot of parents can't help either (lack of knowledge, time, energy, teaching ability etc.)

I went to school in the US and I remember attending chess club, lunchtime maths enrichment sessions, and Media Club after school for no fee. There were also pretty low fee options for extension activities including the American Maths Comp/Maths Olympiad stuff (though I wasn't good enough to get into the latter) and then if you tested well at school you would get sent to the Johns Hopkins CTY/SET programs which were for academically strong children and were pretty cheap to enter. I get that if your parents are impoverished, then all of these things may not be options for you, but for any kid from a vaguely middle class background, the cost isn't prohibitive.

The problem is that most people only know about their own experiences. Your experience is nothing at all like mine was (graduated in 2007). My school was in rural Ohio, in the middle of MAGA country where I doubt anyone ever votes blue for anything. We had sports but nothing academic at all for extracurriculars. In fact, my school didn't start offering foreign languages until 9th grade (and only Spanish) and they didn't have any AP classes at all. I transferred from another school that at least had a minor honors program and I took the highest senior math class my junior year. I took the highest level of Spanish my sophomore year. My family was very low income and if someone wasn't offered for free at school then I didn't have the opportunity to experience it.  I was one the very few to go to college, and the first person in my family to graduate from undergrad and then grad school. I study education inequality and I think a lot of MAGA voters in rural areas have experiences more similar to mine than to yours.
Yea I often see people from Europe asking folks on Reddit "What is XYZ city in the U.S. like?". Well, the answer is it's like every other city in the U.S. There is a rich part of town with gates around the mansions and people spending $200 on their dog's hairdo and $20 on drive-thru coffee, there's a middle-class section desperately trying to keep the poors out, and then there is a vast slum where half the population are addicts or mentally ill, where life is cheap, and where the children go hungry and without sufficient education. There are traffic lights where people beg in each direction from the line of cars, and the median price of the cars when new was $50,000. It's a place where you can get excellent medical care, but most people don't because you have to pay so much for it, and thus Americans routinely die from preventable causes. 

People in less-unequal societies cannot seem to comprehend these contrasts. In their minds, the question is "do you have wealth or not?" Their incredulity brings to mind how weird all these assumptions of American culture should be. I was shocked when I visited Germany and did not find urban decay in any city except Kaiserslautern, which incidentally hosts 50,000 US military personnel, contractors, and their families. German cities don't usually have a "ghetto" or vast former bean fields now devoted to McMansions.   

Similarly with questions about the quality of education, it depends on your socioeconomic status and where you live.

PeteD01

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Re: MAGA and the Billionaires - a tale of resentment and contempt
« Reply #38 on: January 02, 2025, 06:43:19 AM »
Not AI:

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PeteD01

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Scandium

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Re: MAGA and the Billionaires - a tale of resentment and contempt
« Reply #41 on: January 02, 2025, 12:21:56 PM »
I disagree with Vivek and Elon on the policies they want to bring forth, but I too have always wondered why most Americans look up to the prom queens and jocks of the world. They would rather their kids be athletic and popular in school than end up as nerds. They sign their kids up for sports that take up 20 hours a week and cost $XX,XXX a year, instead of saving that money for college or spending it on a tutor. Many kids who compete at the elite level in sports are homeschooled. And the homeschooling they do receive just covers the academic basics so they can dedicate 6-8 hours a day to their sport. What are the chances that any kid will be able to make a living as an athlete? Almost none. The median professional athlete barely scrapes by, and is riddled with injuries. Whereas the median professional in any nerdy field makes a very comfortable living. I don't think parents should push their kids into careers they have no interest in, of course. But why do both parents and kids care so much about athleticism and popularity when most of it is fleeting?

It's rare that I see this much wild conjecture, sweeping generalizations, assumptions and piles of straw men in a single post!
Do you have a source for.... any of this?

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Re: MAGA and the Billionaires - a tale of resentment and contempt
« Reply #42 on: January 02, 2025, 03:20:17 PM »
I was shocked when I visited Germany and did not find urban decay in any city except Kaiserslautern, which incidentally hosts 50,000 US military personnel, contractors, and their families. German cities don't usually have a "ghetto" or vast former bean fields now devoted to McMansions.
I found that funny, but I also think Germany has some poorer regions.  You can look up unemployment rate for each German state, and Bremen comes out on top (largest city Bremerhaven).


Quote
According to the Debtors’ Atlas, Bremerhaven Lehe is Germany’s poorest district. This documentary asks how people live here. Those who can, move away – or do they? Empty houses, crumbling facades and shuttered doors. Many residents are unemployed and live on Harz IV. But many also feel at home here. They believe in a better future. Author Gregor Eppinger meets Heidi, Andrea and Frank, for whom poverty is part of everyday life, who nevertheless fight and do not give up.
https://www.docstation.de/en/wo-armut-alltag-ist-zdf-37-ueber-leben-in-bremerhaven-lehe/

startingout

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Re: MAGA and the Billionaires - a tale of resentment and contempt
« Reply #43 on: January 03, 2025, 08:45:21 PM »
I disagree with Vivek and Elon on the policies they want to bring forth, but I too have always wondered why most Americans look up to the prom queens and jocks of the world. They would rather their kids be athletic and popular in school than end up as nerds. They sign their kids up for sports that take up 20 hours a week and cost $XX,XXX a year, instead of saving that money for college or spending it on a tutor. Many kids who compete at the elite level in sports are homeschooled. And the homeschooling they do receive just covers the academic basics so they can dedicate 6-8 hours a day to their sport. What are the chances that any kid will be able to make a living as an athlete? Almost none. The median professional athlete barely scrapes by, and is riddled with injuries. Whereas the median professional in any nerdy field makes a very comfortable living. I don't think parents should push their kids into careers they have no interest in, of course. But why do both parents and kids care so much about athleticism and popularity when most of it is fleeting?

It's rare that I see this much wild conjecture, sweeping generalizations, assumptions and piles of straw men in a single post!
Do you have a source for.... any of this?

Yes. Elite gymnastics requires 20-30 hours of training per week, according to the official USA Gymnastics organization.
Source: https://usagym.org/men/pathways/usag-elite-track/#:~:text=The%20focus%20of%20the%20Elite,20%20%E2%80%93%2030%20hours%20per%20week
Simone Biles' gym has its own school for athletes with 4 hours of instruction a day, including lunch. It has 2 teachers total for its middle and high school program, and offers no AP classes. But I'm sure this is as good as it gets as far as homeschooling full-time athletes goes. Source: https://www.academyatwcc.com/classes/7-12-lit-ss-sci-math

Parents spend $10k-20k per year on a kid who plays hockey. Source: https://thehockeythinktank.com/the-costs-of-aaa-hockey/
Canadian boys who play hockey each have a 0.025% chance of getting drafted into the NHL. Source: https://www.hockeycanada.ca/en-ca/news/2003-gn-001-en

A ballet education costs $120,000 in 2015 dollars, or around $158,800 in today's dollars. Ballet students train around 20 hours a week, 6 out of 7 days.
Sources: https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/high-price-of-ballet-diversity-misty-copeland/
https://cpyb.org/what-is-a-pre-professional-dancer/#:~:text=Pre%2Dprofessional%20dancers%20dedicate%20several%20hours%20a%20day%2C%20often%20six%20days%20a%20week%2C%20to%20rigorous%20training%20that
https://balletscoop.com/2011/08/03/is-my-class-schedule-pre-professional/

Meanwhile, starting ballerinas earn $20k-60k a year, and that $60k is probably in an expensive city. Source: https://danceivy.com/blogs/news/ballerina-salary-range-beyond-the-stage
Yet so many people want to be professional ballerinas that there are about 100 applicants per job opening. Source: https://www.balletscout.info/blogs/navigating-ballet-auditions-and-jobs-in-an-evolving-competitive-job-market-none/#:~:text=A%20Highly%20Competitive%20Field&text=This%20is%20especially%20true%20for,for%20a%20handful%20of%20positions.

Oh, and dancers retire from their professional careers around age 38. Source: https://datapointesguide.com/generalretirement
The age retirement age for the NBA, NFL, NHL, etc. is much younger too, with the average NFL career being around 3 years long.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2025, 08:50:55 PM by startingout »

scottish

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Re: MAGA and the Billionaires - a tale of resentment and contempt
« Reply #44 on: January 05, 2025, 02:37:27 PM »
I've wondered that too.   It's almost like playing the lottery, except you have a kid instead of a ticket.

I get the feeling that sports stars are heros for alot of people instead of doctors and scientists.    (They'd probably say the inverse about me - what the hell is wrong with Scottish, idolizing Richard Feynman?    Doesn't he know he was a mean-spirited physicist who made fun of biology?    and how many people win a noble prize, anyway?)

Herbert Derp

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Re: MAGA and the Billionaires - a tale of resentment and contempt
« Reply #45 on: January 05, 2025, 06:15:09 PM »
I am strongly in favor of increasing H-1B quotas and legal immigration. It will make the United States stronger.

I must say that I am dismayed that some people are framing the issue as an American cultural deficiency or some sort of IQ gap. These explanations are inflammatory and misleading.

The real issue is that it’s a numbers game. If you are after the top 1% of talent, there’s only so much of it in the United States. There are 350M people in the United States, 1.46B in India, and 1.42B in China. Going purely off of the relative sizes of the populations, this means that for every top 1% STEM worker in the United States, there are over 8 top 1% STEM workers in India and China.

There are not enough top 1% STEM workers in the United States to meet the demands of the tech industry, therefore they must hire from India and China or resort to hiring less talented US workers. If we hire less talented people, our tech companies will end up incompetent like Boeing. We need to keep hiring talented people, and we need the H-1B program to accomplish this. Cultural deficiencies and IQ gaps are irrelevant, this is solely a numbers game.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2025, 06:18:10 PM by Herbert Derp »

PeteD01

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Re: MAGA and the Billionaires - a tale of resentment and contempt
« Reply #46 on: January 05, 2025, 06:35:21 PM »
I am strongly in favor of increasing H-1B quotas and legal immigration. It will make the United States stronger.

...

Following this line of thought, the best way forward to keep the lid on American wages for highly skilled workers would be to continue to wreck public education in order to have to recruit H-1B workers who cannot organize and are largely beholden to their contract with a particular employer because Americans are too uneducated to do the job.

Fuck this I'd say - give the highly skilled workers Green Cards and legalize the status of other migrant workers so that they can organize and all the antagonisms between American and foreign members of the workforce miraculously disappear.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2025, 06:40:06 PM by PeteD01 »

MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: MAGA and the Billionaires - a tale of resentment and contempt
« Reply #47 on: January 05, 2025, 07:40:21 PM »
I am strongly in favor of increasing H-1B quotas and legal immigration. It will make the United States stronger.

...

Following this line of thought, the best way forward to keep the lid on American wages for highly skilled workers would be to continue to wreck public education ...

You brought up things not discussed in that post (keep the kid on wages, wreck public education), followed by saying how much you dislike the things you just brought up.  Do you even need to quote someone's post, when your thoughts have nothing to do with theirs?

MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: MAGA and the Billionaires - a tale of resentment and contempt
« Reply #48 on: January 05, 2025, 08:02:31 PM »
There are not enough top 1% STEM workers in the United States to meet the demands of the tech industry, therefore they must hire from India and China or resort to hiring less talented US workers. If we hire less talented people, our tech companies will end up incompetent like Boeing. We need to keep hiring talented people, and we need the H-1B program to accomplish this. Cultural deficiencies and IQ gaps are irrelevant, this is solely a numbers game.
There's also a demographic problem throughout most of the world, where the workforce will shrink over decades.  More people will retire than enter the workforce, generating new problems from shrinking economies.  Most countries have a birth rate problem (including the U.S.), but most countries can't fight that through immigration - the U.S. can.  Besides recruiting people from around the world for highly cognitive jobs, the U.S. will also benefit from using immigration to prevent a shrinking workforce and economy.

twinstudy

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Re: MAGA and the Billionaires - a tale of resentment and contempt
« Reply #49 on: January 05, 2025, 08:36:40 PM »
Realistically we will need to cut pensions/state-funded social security. The idea that the government should be funding your retirement is ridiculous - work for it. I'm fine with some government-backed social security programme that gives people tax concessions, etc, to encourage them to save up for their own retirements, but the idea of a permanent and unconditional retirement income for doing nothing is just...strange.