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Got to say that I like what I'm seeing and it's happening earlier than I thought it would.
At this point, the contentious issue is the need for qualified tech workers on the part of big tech that apparently can't be satisfied without expanding the H1-B visa program, meaning more immigration primarily from India.
Of course, the contempt the billionaire class has for MAGA (and for America as we know it) was put on display:
Vivek Ramaswamy
@VivekGRamaswamy
The reason top tech companies often hire foreign-born & first-generation engineers over “native” Americans isn’t because of an innate American IQ deficit (a lazy & wrong explanation). A key part of it comes down to the c-word: culture. Tough questions demand tough answers & if we’re really serious about fixing the problem, we have to confront the TRUTH:
Our American culture has venerated mediocrity over excellence for way too long (at least since the 90s and likely longer). That doesn’t start in college, it starts YOUNG.
A culture that celebrates the prom queen over the math olympiad champ, or the jock over the valedictorian, will not produce the best engineers.
A culture that venerates Cory from “Boy Meets World,” or Zach & Slater over Screech in “Saved by the Bell,” or ‘Stefan’ over Steve Urkel in “Family Matters,” will not produce the best engineers.
(Fact: I know *multiple* sets of immigrant parents in the 90s who actively limited how much their kids could watch those TV shows precisely because they promoted mediocrity…and their kids went on to become wildly successful STEM graduates).
More movies like Whiplash, fewer reruns of “Friends.” More math tutoring, fewer sleepovers. More weekend science competitions, fewer Saturday morning cartoons. More books, less TV. More creating, less “chillin.” More extracurriculars, less “hanging out at the mall.”
Most normal American parents look skeptically at “those kinds of parents.” More normal American kids view such “those kinds of kids” with scorn. If you grow up aspiring to normalcy, normalcy is what you will achieve.
Now close your eyes & visualize which families you knew in the 90s (or even now) who raise their kids according to one model versus the other. Be brutally honest.
“Normalcy” doesn’t cut it in a hyper-competitive global market for technical talent. And if we pretend like it does, we’ll have our asses handed to us by China.
This can be our Sputnik moment. We’ve awaken from slumber before & we can do it again. Trump’s election hopefully marks the beginning of a new golden era in America, but only if our culture fully wakes up. A culture that once again prioritizes achievement over normalcy; excellence over mediocrity; nerdiness over conformity; hard work over laziness.
That’s the work we have cut out for us, rather than wallowing in victimhood & just wishing (or legislating) alternative hiring practices into existence. I’m confident we can do it. 🇺🇸 🇺🇸
https://x.com/VivekGRamaswamy/status/1872312139945234507
But let's wait for the consequences that are still awaiting the MAGA crowd - soon they’ll find out that there is another bunch of billionaires waiting for their chance to fleece MAGA more than they can the "libs".
With Musk and Ramaswami having expertly primed the MAGA anger pump, it should not be too difficult to built on populist resentment of thieving billionaires.
That simmering resentment could easily cause infighting to go out of control when the policies start hitting MAGA pocket books.
Immigration and deportation policies proposed by Trump are so toxic for the economy that businesses are trying everything to gain influence in the coming Trump administration.
On the other hand, these same policies are so central for MAGA chumps that a fight seems unavoidable.
Meanwhile, Trump is frantically trying to redirect attention away from domestic issues by having an imperialistic fit ...
Vivek Ramaswamy slamming ‘mediocre’ American culture ignites MAGA civil war
By Tuhin Das Mahapatra
Dec 27, 2024
Vivek Ramaswamy ignited a storm of controversy Thursday with a social media post slamming US culture. His remarks disparaging prom queens, high school jocks, and even beloved 90s TV characters like Cory Matthews and Stefan Urquelle have sparked a backlash among MAGA loyalists.
https://www.hindustantimes.com/world-news/us-news/vivek-ramaswamy-slamming-mediocre-american-culture-ignites-maga-civil-war-101735275141004.html
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posting to follow. I just can't imagine Vivek and Elon having a reasonable discussion about anything. Watching it all play out in Tweets is a nice bonus.
In this case, I agree 100% with Ramaswamy that America has been incredibly fortunate as beneficiary of the world's best and brightest. If we could turn this benefit up to 11 while turning away all the 'bad immigrants' as well as kicking out some dead weight, that should be a great way for billionaires to scoop up even more financial security. I just wonder why they think being vocal about it is a good idea, why not just try to do this quietly and more gradually? Or maybe I'm overthinking this and the playbook is to overshow the hand only to make the dialed-back version that they actually wanted seem like a win-win... It's quite possible that the chaos is intentional - barefaced oligarchy would be unacceptable, but oligarchy hidden in chaos is harder to fight.
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Are they also planning on providing govt funding for that math tutoring, weekend science competitions, extracurriculars? Because that's pretty expensive.
My kid takes chess lessons - $225 for 8 weeks (1 hr). In the grand scheme of things, that's not too expensive compared to other options, but it's still unaffordable for a low income family. It's $100 for a 3 hr maker camp per day at a local science place over break. $400 for an 8-week after school class (75 mins), same place. $450 for 3 hr 1-week summer camp at a different local science place.
Oh wait, I forgot. According to Vance, the grandparents will pay, right?
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Musk is suspending MAGA accounts on X/Twitter - hilarious if you ask me:
I'm LOVING That Maga Is In COMPLETE War
Tennessee Brando
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=43URFwP7yQM
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Why would we expect a strong STEM pool when we don't even properly fund general education?
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Meanwhile, Trump is frantically trying to redirect attention away from domestic issues by having an imperialistic fit ...
Yeah, I picked up on that too. Age old tactic of dictators and tyrants. May be even laying out strategy to stay in power before next elections results in four years.
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Are they also planning on providing govt funding for that math tutoring, weekend science competitions, extracurriculars? Because that's pretty expensive.
My kid takes chess lessons - $225 for 8 weeks (1 hr). In the grand scheme of things, that's not too expensive compared to other options, but it's still unaffordable for a low income family. It's $100 for a 3 hr maker camp per day at a local science place over break. $400 for an 8-week after school class (75 mins), same place. $450 for 3 hr 1-week summer camp at a different local science place.
Oh wait, I forgot. According to Vance, the grandparents will pay, right?
We did pay for private school for our kids when we lived in China because local options were not a good fit. But we didn't pay a ton for extracurriculars for them. DS basically read on line whatever he was interested in, taught himself chess and programming, and ended up in the early entrance program at the University of Washington and, now, in a Ph.D. program in CS at Berkeley. DD joined the robotics team at her high school (we were back in the US by then) and is now in Mechanical Engineering at the UW.
The local libraries and parks department have a lot of STEM related stuff for low- or no-cost. School clubs here are often mentored by local tech folk -- that was the case for DD's robotics team.
Can you pay a lot for extracurriculars? Sure. But you don't have to in many parts of the country.
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Why would we expect a strong STEM pool when we don't even properly fund general education?
The Wall Street Journal had picked up on this discussion. Reported tweets:
Musk: "There is a dire shortage of talented and motivated engineers in America."
User: "Open a school. We have brains."
Musk: "If you need a school, you've lost already."
Later, Musk clarified what he was doing:
"...bringing in via legal immigration the top ~0.1% of engineering talent as being essential for America to keep winning."
Laura Loomer, voice of reason? replying, after looking at posted Tesla jobs for H1-B holders:
"So, you're telling me that $70k per year entry level jobs are .1% level talent?"
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The billionaire oligarchs and the blue-collar base will always be odd bedfellows. They will have to find new uses for one another now that the Party has complete control over all branches of government.
Historically, the blue-collar base has used the billionaires as psychological role models. The base expresses their desires to get rich and have status over other people through affinity with the billionaires, in the hopes that some of their luck will rub off, or the hope some sort of direct payment will occur, such as a raise or stock market boost. When you hear the term "successful businessman", this is an expression of the idea that having money equals competence and wisdom. The base spends their lives trying to figure out money, so it makes sense to them that only a smart person could do this well.
Meanwhile the billionaires have historically had a use for the blue-collar base too. Primarily this use includes voting, donating, and generating ad revenue on the billionaires' social media platforms. The base are the people you as a billionaire seek to manipulate. They are, in the billionaire's minds, both fools and the gatekeepers to power.
The friction is occurring because the billionaires have a very different mindset than the blue-collar base. Ramaswamy and Musk express a desire for their employees to perform with excellence, because that attitude was critical to building their financial empires. They are now treating the base like they are employees.
The blue-collar base is having none of it. They voted Trump so that they wouldn't have to be excellent or work hard. Deporting immigrants and building the wall was supposed to leave employers with no other choice than to hire the blue-collar base at higher wages. The casual racism was supposed to create a superior white caste, an honor it would be unnecessary to work for. And the whole stream of excuses about how the "woke mob" was poisoning everything offered those who habitually resist self-accountability an easy explanation that they could accept. MAGA was never about self-improvement or high achievement for the blue-collar base. It was about venting grievances and frustrations onto scapegoats like immigrants, liberals, and China.
Now we have the DOGE group trying to tell the base that they need to change (specifically, become more workaholic) like some kind of bootstraps-believing boss at work. However, the base still believes what they were told about how the elimination of the scapegoats will lead to national and personal greatness without any hard work involved.
To the base, this talk about H1 visas being necessary for industrial policy or their favorite cultural memes being counterproductive sounds like backsliding. The billionaires are probably right about America's loser-celebrating culture, but they ran for office on scapegoating - not on the base putting in extra hours or tutoring their kids.
Trump's challenge is to rein in these voices and keep the message on the scapegoats. Deportations, trade wars with China, and annoying liberals could easily consume the next 4 years and give the base hope to vote for in the 2028 elections, if there are elections. And if Trump or his progeny is to overturn term limits and become a dictator, the path to that outcome is paved with scapegoats, not self-improvement bullshit spoken by out-of-touch rich people.
The American right is overdue for a night of the long knives or Stalinist purge anyway. The DOGE crew better watch themselves or they might become the next scapegoats. Perhaps Trump would like the look of the courageous leader who banished the treasonous woke billionaires. They are, after all, breaking the first rule of politics which is to always blame someone else.
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Mr. Vivek:
Try considering America’s strengths:
1. It’s by far the most successful economy. Even today, when it’s struggling politically, its economy is the envy of the world.
2. It’s the global hub for higher education.
3. Its military power is in a class of its own and is getting stronger.
4. Its artistic influence—music, film, television, and popular culture—dominates globally.
5. Its entrepreneurs—in Silicon Valley, Route 28, NYC, etc.—are world-leading and attract more investment from financial centers worldwide than any other country.
6. Its tops in philanthropy.
7. It’s the world leader in science, technology, space exploration.
8. Its agricultural productivity—combining farming and technology—is world-class.
9. It’s the most ethnically diverse country on earth and despite challenges it’s still a true melting pot that draws strength from new ideas.
So Vivek, you can keep whatever shit you’ve been filling your pipe with while the rest of us still consider you the lowest of Trump’s multiple dingleberries. You’re a schmuck…
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Not to be left out of the brawl, here we have steve Bannon (for non-US readers: Steve Bannon is kind of a MAGA intellectual with street cred, not to be underestimated but a crook at heart) taking, unsurprisingly, the populist position:
Steve Bannon Joins War Against Elon Musk as MAGA Implodes
Donald Trump’s biggest fans are at each other’s throats over immigration, and H-1B visas in particular.
“H-1B visas? That’s not what it’s about. It’s about taking American jobs and bringing over essentially what have become indentured servants at lower wages,” said Bannon. “This thing’s a scam by the oligarchs in Silicon Valley to basically take jobs from American citizens, give them to what become indentured servants from foreign countries, and then pay ‘em less. Simple. To let them in through the golden door.”
https://newrepublic.com/post/189694/steve-bannon-maga-war-elon-musk-immigration
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This is all just a distraction from the smash and grab that is being planned by the billionaires. Keep people fighting over the H1 visa programs, that Elon and co have little/no control over while you cut labor regulations and make auto manufacturing impossible for anyone who isn't Tesla.
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I still can't get a fix on what Bannon is really about. Sure, exploitation. But this is the same guy who was pivotal to BiosphereII, had a hand in cellular getting built out in the US, and other big infrastructure things there were more pollyanna style investing. Was he an idealist who has just slowly gotten more and more jaded?
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Aside from Ratherswampy’s stupid cultural comment this is much ado about nothing and has more to do with America’s insatiable demand for tech talent.
Depending on how you define higher ed, America basically ranks #1 in comparison to the other high population countries in the world. But do to our booming tech industry the demand for talent is incredible.
It’s tiring how the media spins this stuff tho.
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Not to be left out of the brawl, here we have steve Bannon (for non-US readers: Steve Bannon is kind of a MAGA intellectual with street cred, not to be underestimated but a crook at heart) taking, unsurprisingly, the populist position:
Steve Bannon Joins War Against Elon Musk as MAGA Implodes
Donald Trump’s biggest fans are at each other’s throats over immigration, and H-1B visas in particular.
“H-1B visas? That’s not what it’s about. It’s about taking American jobs and bringing over essentially what have become indentured servants at lower wages,” said Bannon. “This thing’s a scam by the oligarchs in Silicon Valley to basically take jobs from American citizens, give them to what become indentured servants from foreign countries, and then pay ‘em less. Simple. To let them in through the golden door.”
https://newrepublic.com/post/189694/steve-bannon-maga-war-elon-musk-immigration
He's not wrong. My current company used to have a lot of H-1B programmers. They didn't work directly for my company, but were contracted out by an Indian company. It didn't take long for them to figure out just how underpaid they were compared to us, and they resented it. They weren't free to change jobs - it was either deal with it or go home.
I know a couple that managed to get a Green Card and get better-paid jobs, but most of them just tried to save as much as possible for a few years and then went back to India.
Our company went and bought an Indian contracting company outright, then opened offices over there and brought those people in to work for us. They've been working on a rewrite of the software I work on since 2015. It was supposed to ready to go in 2022, and now they're saying the end of 2026. A lot of their programmers have left for other jobs over the past few years, so I think they're still wildly optimistic. Time will tell.
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...
He's not wrong. My current company used to have a lot of H-1B programmers. They didn't work directly for my company, but were contracted out by an Indian company. It didn't take long for them to figure out just how underpaid they were compared to us, and they resented it. They weren't free to change jobs - it was either deal with it or go home.
...
No, he's not wrong at all and the crack is appearing right where it was supposed to.
Economic elites have usually operated under the illusion that they can manage the political leadership on the extreme right.
Steve Bannon is educated enough to anticipate that and also the ignorance of economic elites when it comes to political power.
Of course, Dunning-Kruger affected idiots like Musk and Ramaswamy walked it right out into the open because of their ignorance of these matters.
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I disagree with Vivek and Elon on the policies they want to bring forth, but I too have always wondered why most Americans look up to the prom queens and jocks of the world. They would rather their kids be athletic and popular in school than end up as nerds. They sign their kids up for sports that take up 20 hours a week and cost $XX,XXX a year, instead of saving that money for college or spending it on a tutor. Many kids who compete at the elite level in sports are homeschooled. And the homeschooling they do receive just covers the academic basics so they can dedicate 6-8 hours a day to their sport. What are the chances that any kid will be able to make a living as an athlete? Almost none. The median professional athlete barely scrapes by, and is riddled with injuries. Whereas the median professional in any nerdy field makes a very comfortable living. I don't think parents should push their kids into careers they have no interest in, of course. But why do both parents and kids care so much about athleticism and popularity when most of it is fleeting?
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I disagree with Vivek and Elon on the policies they want to bring forth, but I too have always wondered why most Americans look up to the prom queens and jocks of the world. They would rather their kids be athletic and popular in school than end up as nerds. They sign their kids up for sports that take up 20 hours a week and cost $XX,XXX a year, instead of saving that money for college or spending it on a tutor. Many kids who compete at the elite level in sports are homeschooled. And the homeschooling they do receive just covers the academic basics so they can dedicate 6-8 hours a day to their sport. What are the chances that any kid will be able to make a living as an athlete? Almost none. The median professional athlete barely scrapes by, and is riddled with injuries. Whereas the median professional in any nerdy field makes a very comfortable living. I don't think parents should push their kids into careers they have no interest in, of course. But why do both parents and kids care so much about athleticism and popularity when most of it is fleeting?
How common do you really think that is? I feel like parents going all in like that on their children becoming pro-athletes is pretty rare, probably far more rare than parents who are pushing their kids academically. Most parents are just letting their children do what they enjoy doing, and for most children, sitting at a desk studying is not fun. Humans are evolved to be constantly moving and performing athletics, seems reasonable that's what kids want to do more.
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How common do you really think that is? I feel like parents going all in like that on their children becoming pro-athletes is pretty rare, probably far more rare than parents who are pushing their kids academically. Most parents are just letting their children do what they enjoy doing, and for most children, sitting at a desk studying is not fun. Humans are evolved to be constantly moving and performing athletics, seems reasonable that's what kids want to do more.
I'm not sure how common it is, but kids who are serious about ballet, competitive dance, gymnastics, and figure skating routinely spend 20 hours a week on their sports. And their parents often spend 5 figures a year once all the travel fees to competitions are included. A single Irish dance costume can cost $3,000.
An example: "Raising A Ballerina Will Cost You $100,000" (in 2015)
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/high-price-of-ballet-diversity-misty-copeland/
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One of my kids is/was one of those 'competitive athletes' that spent most of his high school years living elsewhere on elite teams and doing athletics focused programs. He's doing fine. That path had nothing to do with anything coming from us (aside from $$), it was entirely driven by him. He knew at age 12 his chance of making it to the 'paid' level of this particular sport was miniscule, and at this point it is clearly not going to happen. I regret nothing - he was a kid that would have been all in on something, and without sports it could easily have been something a lot less positive.
The point should be obvious - if you aren't into something and don't 'get' it don't automatically assume it is a bad choice.
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Elon Musk calls his MAGA critics "contemptible fools" and wants to fire them from the Republican party.
He seems to think the GOP is one of his companies ...
‘Contemptible fools’: Elon Musk escalates MAGA rift
Erik De La Garza
December 27, 2024
"Yes,” Musk replied. “And those contemptible fools must be removed from the Republican Party, root and stem.”
https://www.rawstory.com/elon-musk-2670691861/?utm_source=superhead
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Elon might not get as warm a reception at the next Trump rally...
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Elon might not get as warm a reception at the next Trump rally...
Well, Musk and Ramaswamy are not the sharpest knives in the drawer and are out of touch.
It doesn´t take a genius to figure out that the MAGA movement is a hodgepodge of incompatible factions that are held together by good old-fashioned American anti-intellectualism and nativism in the tradition of the defunct Know-Nothing Party and later nativist, white supremacist/nativist movements like the Klan and the America First Committee and others.
All these previous incarnations of right wing extremism were notable for serious internal contradictions between factions in the absence of a coherent ideology.
The glue that held these movement together, for a while, was nativism/racism, anti-intellectualism and a dollop of isolationism.
Conspiracy theories come easy in such movements because it gives them something to talk about without having to look in the mirror.
MAGA is all of these things.
So, attacking MAGA for its anti-intellectualism and xenophobia/racism is quite frankly foolish because it's an attack that aims at the core of MAGA - but what can one expect from out of touch billionaires.
MAGA, in its fractious, chaotic and contradictory state, is no different from historic predecessors and contemporary incarnations.
These movements are always in need of a strongman as a canvas for their projections and who maintains a climate of threat and violence as a means of enforcing discipline.
Trump is making a show out of made up foreign policy issues and appears to be avoiding the problem - which happens to be the job of a strongman.
I guess Trump is playing a strongman but is actually a puffed up weakman who does not know what to do with fearfully rich Elon Musk and MAGA rage.
I don't think scatterbrained Trump is up to the task, but we'll see.
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I disagree with Vivek and Elon on the policies they want to bring forth, but I too have always wondered why most Americans look up to the prom queens and jocks of the world. They would rather their kids be athletic and popular in school than end up as nerds. They sign their kids up for sports that take up 20 hours a week and cost $XX,XXX a year, instead of saving that money for college or spending it on a tutor. Many kids who compete at the elite level in sports are homeschooled. And the homeschooling they do receive just covers the academic basics so they can dedicate 6-8 hours a day to their sport. What are the chances that any kid will be able to make a living as an athlete? Almost none. The median professional athlete barely scrapes by, and is riddled with injuries. Whereas the median professional in any nerdy field makes a very comfortable living. I don't think parents should push their kids into careers they have no interest in, of course. But why do both parents and kids care so much about athleticism and popularity when most of it is fleeting?
How common do you really think that is? I feel like parents going all in like that on their children becoming pro-athletes is pretty rare, probably far more rare than parents who are pushing their kids academically. Most parents are just letting their children do what they enjoy doing, and for most children, sitting at a desk studying is not fun. Humans are evolved to be constantly moving and performing athletics, seems reasonable that's what kids want to do more.
I vehemently disagree, and I was a classroom teacher. FAR more parents think that their kid will go to college on a soccer scholarship than an academic scholarship and far more working class parents hope for an career in athletics or popular music than for one in engineering.
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Are they also planning on providing govt funding for that math tutoring, weekend science competitions, extracurriculars? Because that's pretty expensive.
My kid takes chess lessons - $225 for 8 weeks (1 hr). In the grand scheme of things, that's not too expensive compared to other options, but it's still unaffordable for a low income family. It's $100 for a 3 hr maker camp per day at a local science place over break. $400 for an 8-week after school class (75 mins), same place. $450 for 3 hr 1-week summer camp at a different local science place.
Oh wait, I forgot. According to Vance, the grandparents will pay, right?
We did pay for private school for our kids when we lived in China because local options were not a good fit. But we didn't pay a ton for extracurriculars for them. DS basically read on line whatever he was interested in, taught himself chess and programming, and ended up in the early entrance program at the University of Washington and, now, in a Ph.D. program in CS at Berkeley. DD joined the robotics team at her high school (we were back in the US by then) and is now in Mechanical Engineering at the UW.
The local libraries and parks department have a lot of STEM related stuff for low- or no-cost. School clubs here are often mentored by local tech folk -- that was the case for DD's robotics team.
Can you pay a lot for extracurriculars? Sure. But you don't have to in many parts of the country.
A lot of low or no cost STEM activities? You are lucky to have that near you. I don't think it's that common.
I checked the programming at my library the past few months. They have a free 45 minute STEM session once a month. Not sure if that's a repeat activities to build skills or the same thing each time though.
The town rec department also does chess, and it's actually $2 more per hour than the class we have him in. It's also much less educational (they dress up in chess costumes?) while the one my kid is in is taught by an international chess master with years of teaching experience. So there can be a quality issue with going with those classes. There is a town rec STEM class for 8 weeks, $245. A little cheaper than the above prices, but I wouldn't call that low cost.
Yes some kids can teach themselves, but a lot can't, and a lot of parents can't help either (lack of knowledge, time, energy, teaching ability etc.)
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The fee for DS to be on his school,'s Lego robotics league team is $60. Plus an optional $15 team shirt, which I support for the team building. They met once a week for most of the fall, but have been accelerating as their first tournament is is two weeks.
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Are they also planning on providing govt funding for that math tutoring, weekend science competitions, extracurriculars? Because that's pretty expensive.
My kid takes chess lessons - $225 for 8 weeks (1 hr). In the grand scheme of things, that's not too expensive compared to other options, but it's still unaffordable for a low income family. It's $100 for a 3 hr maker camp per day at a local science place over break. $400 for an 8-week after school class (75 mins), same place. $450 for 3 hr 1-week summer camp at a different local science place.
Oh wait, I forgot. According to Vance, the grandparents will pay, right?
We did pay for private school for our kids when we lived in China because local options were not a good fit. But we didn't pay a ton for extracurriculars for them. DS basically read on line whatever he was interested in, taught himself chess and programming, and ended up in the early entrance program at the University of Washington and, now, in a Ph.D. program in CS at Berkeley. DD joined the robotics team at her high school (we were back in the US by then) and is now in Mechanical Engineering at the UW.
The local libraries and parks department have a lot of STEM related stuff for low- or no-cost. School clubs here are often mentored by local tech folk -- that was the case for DD's robotics team.
Can you pay a lot for extracurriculars? Sure. But you don't have to in many parts of the country.
A lot of low or no cost STEM activities? You are lucky to have that near you. I don't think it's that common.
I checked the programming at my library the past few months. They have a free 45 minute STEM session once a month. Not sure if that's a repeat activities to build skills or the same thing each time though.
The town rec department also does chess, and it's actually $2 more per hour than the class we have him in. It's also much less educational (they dress up in chess costumes?) while the one my kid is in is taught by an international chess master with years of teaching experience. So there can be a quality issue with going with those classes. There is a town rec STEM class for 8 weeks, $245. A little cheaper than the above prices, but I wouldn't call that low cost.
Yes some kids can teach themselves, but a lot can't, and a lot of parents can't help either (lack of knowledge, time, energy, teaching ability etc.)
I went to school in the US and I remember attending chess club, lunchtime maths enrichment sessions, and Media Club after school for no fee. There were also pretty low fee options for extension activities including the American Maths Comp/Maths Olympiad stuff (though I wasn't good enough to get into the latter) and then if you tested well at school you would get sent to the Johns Hopkins CTY/SET programs which were for academically strong children and were pretty cheap to enter. I get that if your parents are impoverished, then all of these things may not be options for you, but for any kid from a vaguely middle class background, the cost isn't prohibitive.
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Rex Huppke of USA Today wallows in the mud (https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-picks-musks-money-over-171527871.html) slung from the back-and-forth between DOGE and MAGA.
I don't think I could last 4 years of this, but if this is triumph I'll pass. I do wonder where the rage machine will turn, if they decide Trump isn't their man.
Who the heck knows what will happen in January, much less by 2026?
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Are they also planning on providing govt funding for that math tutoring, weekend science competitions, extracurriculars? Because that's pretty expensive.
My kid takes chess lessons - $225 for 8 weeks (1 hr). In the grand scheme of things, that's not too expensive compared to other options, but it's still unaffordable for a low income family. It's $100 for a 3 hr maker camp per day at a local science place over break. $400 for an 8-week after school class (75 mins), same place. $450 for 3 hr 1-week summer camp at a different local science place.
Oh wait, I forgot. According to Vance, the grandparents will pay, right?
We did pay for private school for our kids when we lived in China because local options were not a good fit. But we didn't pay a ton for extracurriculars for them. DS basically read on line whatever he was interested in, taught himself chess and programming, and ended up in the early entrance program at the University of Washington and, now, in a Ph.D. program in CS at Berkeley. DD joined the robotics team at her high school (we were back in the US by then) and is now in Mechanical Engineering at the UW.
The local libraries and parks department have a lot of STEM related stuff for low- or no-cost. School clubs here are often mentored by local tech folk -- that was the case for DD's robotics team.
Can you pay a lot for extracurriculars? Sure. But you don't have to in many parts of the country.
A lot of low or no cost STEM activities? You are lucky to have that near you. I don't think it's that common.
I checked the programming at my library the past few months. They have a free 45 minute STEM session once a month. Not sure if that's a repeat activities to build skills or the same thing each time though.
The town rec department also does chess, and it's actually $2 more per hour than the class we have him in. It's also much less educational (they dress up in chess costumes?) while the one my kid is in is taught by an international chess master with years of teaching experience. So there can be a quality issue with going with those classes. There is a town rec STEM class for 8 weeks, $245. A little cheaper than the above prices, but I wouldn't call that low cost.
Yes some kids can teach themselves, but a lot can't, and a lot of parents can't help either (lack of knowledge, time, energy, teaching ability etc.)
I went to school in the US and I remember attending chess club, lunchtime maths enrichment sessions, and Media Club after school for no fee. There were also pretty low fee options for extension activities including the American Maths Comp/Maths Olympiad stuff (though I wasn't good enough to get into the latter) and then if you tested well at school you would get sent to the Johns Hopkins CTY/SET programs which were for academically strong children and were pretty cheap to enter. I get that if your parents are impoverished, then all of these things may not be options for you, but for any kid from a vaguely middle class background, the cost isn't prohibitive.
The problem is that most people only know about their own experiences. Your experience is nothing at all like mine was (graduated in 2007). My school was in rural Ohio, in the middle of MAGA country where I doubt anyone ever votes blue for anything. We had sports but nothing academic at all for extracurriculars. In fact, my school didn't start offering foreign languages until 9th grade (and only Spanish) and they didn't have any AP classes at all. I transferred from another school that at least had a minor honors program and I took the highest senior math class my junior year. I took the highest level of Spanish my sophomore year. My family was very low income and if someone wasn't offered for free at school then I didn't have the opportunity to experience it. I was one the very few to go to college, and the first person in my family to graduate from undergrad and then grad school. I study education inequality and I think a lot of MAGA voters in rural areas have experiences more similar to mine than to yours.
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Oligarchy 101, keeping Americans uneducated to goose profits and using MAGA anti-intellectualism to get there - don't know what's so secret about it, but here we go:
ELON FINALLY EXPOSES HIS SECRET PLOT
Adam Mockler
Dec 30, 2024
Adam Mockler and Ben Meiselas with the MeidasTouch Network break down Donald Trump relationship with his largest donor, Elon Musk, and how DOGE is a cover up.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XwKcLc168fg
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The problem is that most people only know about their own experiences. Your experience is nothing at all like mine was (graduated in 2007). My school was in rural Ohio, in the middle of MAGA country where I doubt anyone ever votes blue for anything. We had sports but nothing academic at all for extracurriculars. In fact, my school didn't start offering foreign languages until 9th grade (and only Spanish) and they didn't have any AP classes at all. I transferred from another school that at least had a minor honors program and I took the highest senior math class my junior year. I took the highest level of Spanish my sophomore year. My family was very low income and if someone wasn't offered for free at school then I didn't have the opportunity to experience it. I was one the very few to go to college, and the first person in my family to graduate from undergrad and then grad school. I study education inequality and I think a lot of MAGA voters in rural areas have experiences more similar to mine than to yours.
That's sad. I wish there was more emphasis put on education at all levels. It can't be that expensive to have a well-funded school system. In particular, having things like free lunch programs and free testing for gifted programs, as well as engagement activities aimed at those from a non-English speaking background or those whose families aren't academically engaged.
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There is also a serious lack of empathy in the social media age. You don't need to live someone else's experience to understand somewhat where they are coming from, but our imaginations have been replaced with emotional triggers. We are so busy feeling outraged, afraid, and overwhelmed that we don't have the space and emotional energy to wonder what is going on with people in our own community. Instead of getting back to the middle, we drift further to black and white simplifications to help us process all this input.
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I'm with you, @PeteD01 ! Thanks for starting this thread. It is delightful.
I know I should find a more diplomatic way of addressing this, so apologies in advance...
Bannon, Musk, Ramaswamy, Vance, Thiel, Kash, et al. are geniuses at saying stupid things loudly.
I tried to understand Thiel's philosophy and the closest I can come is he is in that subset of gay men who passionately hate women. There is no coherence to his views otherwise.
Bannon just wants to destroy.
That said, Musk and Ramaswamy being allied over H-1Bs is a sign of one thing I had hoped, which is that the 2nd Trump cabinet was going to be less treason-adjacent than the first.
There were plenty of conservative politicians who were able to articulate interesting positions in the past. Where did they all go?
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"contemptible fools" = "basket of deplorables"
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Mr. Vivek:
Try considering America’s strengths:
1. It’s by far the most successful economy. Even today, when it’s struggling politically, its economy is the envy of the world.
2. It’s the global hub for higher education.
3. Its military power is in a class of its own and is getting stronger.
4. Its artistic influence—music, film, television, and popular culture—dominates globally.
5. Its entrepreneurs—in Silicon Valley, Route 28, NYC, etc.—are world-leading and attract more investment from financial centers worldwide than any other country.
6. Its tops in philanthropy.
7. It’s the world leader in science, technology, space exploration.
8. Its agricultural productivity—combining farming and technology—is world-class.
9. It’s the most ethnically diverse country on earth and despite challenges it’s still a true melting pot that draws strength from new ideas.
Mr. Ron, I agree with this list!
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I tried to understand Thiel's philosophy and the closest I can come is he is in that subset of gay men who passionately hate women. There is no coherence to his views otherwise.
Scooby Doo villain: "If it wasn't for women and their right to vote, we'd have a libertarian paradise!"*
* Paraphrased from https://www.cato-unbound.org/2009/04/13/peter-thiel/education-libertarian/
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It’s also been interesting to see how much the public considers Musk’s recent parading of little X (who looks just like his mama Grimes, OMG) as using him as a human shield in the age of CEO murders and Trump assassination attempts. Insane times.
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Are they also planning on providing govt funding for that math tutoring, weekend science competitions, extracurriculars? Because that's pretty expensive.
My kid takes chess lessons - $225 for 8 weeks (1 hr). In the grand scheme of things, that's not too expensive compared to other options, but it's still unaffordable for a low income family. It's $100 for a 3 hr maker camp per day at a local science place over break. $400 for an 8-week after school class (75 mins), same place. $450 for 3 hr 1-week summer camp at a different local science place.
Oh wait, I forgot. According to Vance, the grandparents will pay, right?
We did pay for private school for our kids when we lived in China because local options were not a good fit. But we didn't pay a ton for extracurriculars for them. DS basically read on line whatever he was interested in, taught himself chess and programming, and ended up in the early entrance program at the University of Washington and, now, in a Ph.D. program in CS at Berkeley. DD joined the robotics team at her high school (we were back in the US by then) and is now in Mechanical Engineering at the UW.
The local libraries and parks department have a lot of STEM related stuff for low- or no-cost. School clubs here are often mentored by local tech folk -- that was the case for DD's robotics team.
Can you pay a lot for extracurriculars? Sure. But you don't have to in many parts of the country.
A lot of low or no cost STEM activities? You are lucky to have that near you. I don't think it's that common.
I checked the programming at my library the past few months. They have a free 45 minute STEM session once a month. Not sure if that's a repeat activities to build skills or the same thing each time though.
The town rec department also does chess, and it's actually $2 more per hour than the class we have him in. It's also much less educational (they dress up in chess costumes?) while the one my kid is in is taught by an international chess master with years of teaching experience. So there can be a quality issue with going with those classes. There is a town rec STEM class for 8 weeks, $245. A little cheaper than the above prices, but I wouldn't call that low cost.
Yes some kids can teach themselves, but a lot can't, and a lot of parents can't help either (lack of knowledge, time, energy, teaching ability etc.)
I went to school in the US and I remember attending chess club, lunchtime maths enrichment sessions, and Media Club after school for no fee. There were also pretty low fee options for extension activities including the American Maths Comp/Maths Olympiad stuff (though I wasn't good enough to get into the latter) and then if you tested well at school you would get sent to the Johns Hopkins CTY/SET programs which were for academically strong children and were pretty cheap to enter. I get that if your parents are impoverished, then all of these things may not be options for you, but for any kid from a vaguely middle class background, the cost isn't prohibitive.
The problem is that most people only know about their own experiences. Your experience is nothing at all like mine was (graduated in 2007). My school was in rural Ohio, in the middle of MAGA country where I doubt anyone ever votes blue for anything. We had sports but nothing academic at all for extracurriculars. In fact, my school didn't start offering foreign languages until 9th grade (and only Spanish) and they didn't have any AP classes at all. I transferred from another school that at least had a minor honors program and I took the highest senior math class my junior year. I took the highest level of Spanish my sophomore year. My family was very low income and if someone wasn't offered for free at school then I didn't have the opportunity to experience it. I was one the very few to go to college, and the first person in my family to graduate from undergrad and then grad school. I study education inequality and I think a lot of MAGA voters in rural areas have experiences more similar to mine than to yours.
Yea I often see people from Europe asking folks on Reddit "What is XYZ city in the U.S. like?". Well, the answer is it's like every other city in the U.S. There is a rich part of town with gates around the mansions and people spending $200 on their dog's hairdo and $20 on drive-thru coffee, there's a middle-class section desperately trying to keep the poors out, and then there is a vast slum where half the population are addicts or mentally ill, where life is cheap, and where the children go hungry and without sufficient education. There are traffic lights where people beg in each direction from the line of cars, and the median price of the cars when new was $50,000. It's a place where you can get excellent medical care, but most people don't because you have to pay so much for it, and thus Americans routinely die from preventable causes.
People in less-unequal societies cannot seem to comprehend these contrasts. In their minds, the question is "do you have wealth or not?" Their incredulity brings to mind how weird all these assumptions of American culture should be. I was shocked when I visited Germany and did not find urban decay in any city except Kaiserslautern, which incidentally hosts 50,000 US military personnel, contractors, and their families. German cities don't usually have a "ghetto" or vast former bean fields now devoted to McMansions.
Similarly with questions about the quality of education, it depends on your socioeconomic status and where you live.
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Not AI:
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Not AI:
Dumpster fire
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Not AI:
Dumpster fire
Literally and figuratively
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I disagree with Vivek and Elon on the policies they want to bring forth, but I too have always wondered why most Americans look up to the prom queens and jocks of the world. They would rather their kids be athletic and popular in school than end up as nerds. They sign their kids up for sports that take up 20 hours a week and cost $XX,XXX a year, instead of saving that money for college or spending it on a tutor. Many kids who compete at the elite level in sports are homeschooled. And the homeschooling they do receive just covers the academic basics so they can dedicate 6-8 hours a day to their sport. What are the chances that any kid will be able to make a living as an athlete? Almost none. The median professional athlete barely scrapes by, and is riddled with injuries. Whereas the median professional in any nerdy field makes a very comfortable living. I don't think parents should push their kids into careers they have no interest in, of course. But why do both parents and kids care so much about athleticism and popularity when most of it is fleeting?
It's rare that I see this much wild conjecture, sweeping generalizations, assumptions and piles of straw men in a single post!
Do you have a source for.... any of this?
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I was shocked when I visited Germany and did not find urban decay in any city except Kaiserslautern, which incidentally hosts 50,000 US military personnel, contractors, and their families. German cities don't usually have a "ghetto" or vast former bean fields now devoted to McMansions.
I found that funny, but I also think Germany has some poorer regions. You can look up unemployment rate for each German state, and Bremen comes out on top (largest city Bremerhaven).
According to the Debtors’ Atlas, Bremerhaven Lehe is Germany’s poorest district. This documentary asks how people live here. Those who can, move away – or do they? Empty houses, crumbling facades and shuttered doors. Many residents are unemployed and live on Harz IV. But many also feel at home here. They believe in a better future. Author Gregor Eppinger meets Heidi, Andrea and Frank, for whom poverty is part of everyday life, who nevertheless fight and do not give up.
https://www.docstation.de/en/wo-armut-alltag-ist-zdf-37-ueber-leben-in-bremerhaven-lehe/
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I disagree with Vivek and Elon on the policies they want to bring forth, but I too have always wondered why most Americans look up to the prom queens and jocks of the world. They would rather their kids be athletic and popular in school than end up as nerds. They sign their kids up for sports that take up 20 hours a week and cost $XX,XXX a year, instead of saving that money for college or spending it on a tutor. Many kids who compete at the elite level in sports are homeschooled. And the homeschooling they do receive just covers the academic basics so they can dedicate 6-8 hours a day to their sport. What are the chances that any kid will be able to make a living as an athlete? Almost none. The median professional athlete barely scrapes by, and is riddled with injuries. Whereas the median professional in any nerdy field makes a very comfortable living. I don't think parents should push their kids into careers they have no interest in, of course. But why do both parents and kids care so much about athleticism and popularity when most of it is fleeting?
It's rare that I see this much wild conjecture, sweeping generalizations, assumptions and piles of straw men in a single post!
Do you have a source for.... any of this?
Yes. Elite gymnastics requires 20-30 hours of training per week, according to the official USA Gymnastics organization.
Source: https://usagym.org/men/pathways/usag-elite-track/#:~:text=The%20focus%20of%20the%20Elite,20%20%E2%80%93%2030%20hours%20per%20week
Simone Biles' gym has its own school for athletes with 4 hours of instruction a day, including lunch. It has 2 teachers total for its middle and high school program, and offers no AP classes. But I'm sure this is as good as it gets as far as homeschooling full-time athletes goes. Source: https://www.academyatwcc.com/classes/7-12-lit-ss-sci-math
Parents spend $10k-20k per year on a kid who plays hockey. Source: https://thehockeythinktank.com/the-costs-of-aaa-hockey/
Canadian boys who play hockey each have a 0.025% chance of getting drafted into the NHL. Source: https://www.hockeycanada.ca/en-ca/news/2003-gn-001-en
A ballet education costs $120,000 in 2015 dollars, or around $158,800 in today's dollars. Ballet students train around 20 hours a week, 6 out of 7 days.
Sources: https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/high-price-of-ballet-diversity-misty-copeland/
https://cpyb.org/what-is-a-pre-professional-dancer/#:~:text=Pre%2Dprofessional%20dancers%20dedicate%20several%20hours%20a%20day%2C%20often%20six%20days%20a%20week%2C%20to%20rigorous%20training%20that
https://balletscoop.com/2011/08/03/is-my-class-schedule-pre-professional/
Meanwhile, starting ballerinas earn $20k-60k a year, and that $60k is probably in an expensive city. Source: https://danceivy.com/blogs/news/ballerina-salary-range-beyond-the-stage
Yet so many people want to be professional ballerinas that there are about 100 applicants per job opening. Source: https://www.balletscout.info/blogs/navigating-ballet-auditions-and-jobs-in-an-evolving-competitive-job-market-none/#:~:text=A%20Highly%20Competitive%20Field&text=This%20is%20especially%20true%20for,for%20a%20handful%20of%20positions.
Oh, and dancers retire from their professional careers around age 38. Source: https://datapointesguide.com/generalretirement
The age retirement age for the NBA, NFL, NHL, etc. is much younger too, with the average NFL career being around 3 years long.
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I've wondered that too. It's almost like playing the lottery, except you have a kid instead of a ticket.
I get the feeling that sports stars are heros for alot of people instead of doctors and scientists. (They'd probably say the inverse about me - what the hell is wrong with Scottish, idolizing Richard Feynman? Doesn't he know he was a mean-spirited physicist who made fun of biology? and how many people win a noble prize, anyway?)
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I am strongly in favor of increasing H-1B quotas and legal immigration. It will make the United States stronger.
I must say that I am dismayed that some people are framing the issue as an American cultural deficiency or some sort of IQ gap. These explanations are inflammatory and misleading.
The real issue is that it’s a numbers game. If you are after the top 1% of talent, there’s only so much of it in the United States. There are 350M people in the United States, 1.46B in India, and 1.42B in China. Going purely off of the relative sizes of the populations, this means that for every top 1% STEM worker in the United States, there are over 8 top 1% STEM workers in India and China.
There are not enough top 1% STEM workers in the United States to meet the demands of the tech industry, therefore they must hire from India and China or resort to hiring less talented US workers. If we hire less talented people, our tech companies will end up incompetent like Boeing. We need to keep hiring talented people, and we need the H-1B program to accomplish this. Cultural deficiencies and IQ gaps are irrelevant, this is solely a numbers game.
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I am strongly in favor of increasing H-1B quotas and legal immigration. It will make the United States stronger.
...
Following this line of thought, the best way forward to keep the lid on American wages for highly skilled workers would be to continue to wreck public education in order to have to recruit H-1B workers who cannot organize and are largely beholden to their contract with a particular employer because Americans are too uneducated to do the job.
Fuck this I'd say - give the highly skilled workers Green Cards and legalize the status of other migrant workers so that they can organize and all the antagonisms between American and foreign members of the workforce miraculously disappear.
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I am strongly in favor of increasing H-1B quotas and legal immigration. It will make the United States stronger.
...
Following this line of thought, the best way forward to keep the lid on American wages for highly skilled workers would be to continue to wreck public education ...
You brought up things not discussed in that post (keep the kid on wages, wreck public education), followed by saying how much you dislike the things you just brought up. Do you even need to quote someone's post, when your thoughts have nothing to do with theirs?
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There are not enough top 1% STEM workers in the United States to meet the demands of the tech industry, therefore they must hire from India and China or resort to hiring less talented US workers. If we hire less talented people, our tech companies will end up incompetent like Boeing. We need to keep hiring talented people, and we need the H-1B program to accomplish this. Cultural deficiencies and IQ gaps are irrelevant, this is solely a numbers game.
There's also a demographic problem throughout most of the world, where the workforce will shrink over decades. More people will retire than enter the workforce, generating new problems from shrinking economies. Most countries have a birth rate problem (including the U.S.), but most countries can't fight that through immigration - the U.S. can. Besides recruiting people from around the world for highly cognitive jobs, the U.S. will also benefit from using immigration to prevent a shrinking workforce and economy.
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Realistically we will need to cut pensions/state-funded social security. The idea that the government should be funding your retirement is ridiculous - work for it. I'm fine with some government-backed social security programme that gives people tax concessions, etc, to encourage them to save up for their own retirements, but the idea of a permanent and unconditional retirement income for doing nothing is just...strange.
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Realistically we will need to cut pensions/state-funded social security. The idea that the government should be funding your retirement is ridiculous - work for it. I'm fine with some government-backed social security programme that gives people tax concessions, etc, to encourage them to save up for their own retirements, but the idea of a permanent and unconditional retirement income for doing nothing is just...strange.
Huh? It's not for doing nothing. It's for having contributed to it for years, whether SS or a state pension. As a state employee, I paid in 11% per year and had a wildly depressed salary to boot (my salary about doubled when I left for a non-profit). I'm paying 6.2%/year for SS and my employer another 6.2%. You don't work your 40 quarters/10 years, you don't get anything. This isn't UBI for merely existing.
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Those are fine - any that are based on contributions made over a lifetime, even if the employer/government boosts it a bit.
I'm talking about widespread pensions that you get unconditionally even if you never worked or paid a cent of income tax in your life.
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I keep seeing this issue popping up on Reddit. I find it mind boggling how many people on the left are willing to adopt populist MAGA talking points straight from the mouths of Steve Bannon and Laura Loomer just because they hate Elon Musk and have to be against everything that he says.
Restricting high-skilled legal immigration in order to drive up wages and hire less competent workers hurts the country, period. It’s a classic example of populist stupidity.
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Those are fine - any that are based on contributions made over a lifetime, even if the employer/government boosts it a bit.
I'm talking about widespread pensions that you get unconditionally even if you never worked or paid a cent of income tax in your life.
Uhhhhh what is this widespread pension that you get unconditionally even if you've never worked or paid a cent of income tax in your life that you speak of?
Like, can you be more specific about what specific pension this is? I'm not aware of any pension that pays out benefits that the recipients don't pay into, especially one that is "widespread"...
The definition of a pension is literally this:
pen·sion
[ˈpenSHən]
noun
a regular payment made during a person's retirement from an investment fund to which that person or their employer has contributed during their working life.
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I keep seeing this issue popping up on Reddit. I find it mind boggling how many people on the left are willing to adopt populist MAGA talking points straight from the mouths of Steve Bannon and Laura Loomer just because they hate Elon Musk and have to be against everything that he says.
Restricting high-skilled legal immigration in order to drive up wages and hire less competent workers hurts the country, period. It’s a classic example of populist stupidity.
I think this is an area there is overlap between the two, while still supporting immigration where it's smart. Bannon isn't totally wrong, the H1B program does get abused where employers bring in cheap labor then make them work A LOT while paying them crap wages because the person is completely beholden to the company. It's modern day slavery and we should be against that kind of abuse.
Like it's clear what Musk is trying to do here, he has a lawsuit to get rid of the NLRB, as well as wanting to increase his ability to abuse cheap foreign labor that have no options in the USA. It's a race to the bottom and we should all be against that.
Bannon and Loomer however are just against it because it means non-white people coming to the country, they don't care about the abuses.
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Bannon isn't totally wrong, the H1B program does get abused where employers bring in cheap labor then make them work A LOT while paying them crap wages because the person is completely beholden to the company. It's modern day slavery and we should be against that kind of abuse.
I think this point of view is a bunch of overblown propaganda. Indian Americans are the highest earning ethnic group in the United States. Why? Because of the H-1B program!
In my personal experience, H-1B workers are overjoyed to work in the United States and realize their dreams. They are happy to be here. They want to be here. They’ve been dreaming of coming here their entire lives. They are paid extremely well, and enjoy the best standard of living that the United States has to offer. They are absolutely not slaves.
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It's been pretty widely reported on for years, like here's a 60 mins investigation it in 2017, it's been a dem issue for a long time:
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/how-h-1b-visas-have-been-abused-since-the-beginning/
Here's a more recent article from forbes"
https://www.forbes.com/sites/janicegassam/2024/12/30/the-h-1b-visa-controversy-cheap-labor-racism-and-the-american-divide/
The Economic Policy Institute reported that a majority of H-1B workers are paid below median wages. Not only is paying employees lower wages advantageous for employers, but workers on H-1B visas may be less likely to report workplace harm and mistreatment due to fears of how the loss of an H-1B job could drastically impact their life.
here's the report:
https://www.epi.org/publication/new-evidence-widespread-wage-theft-in-the-h-1b-program/
In general work visas are very needed in north america as countries face signficant demographic issues. People coming to the country to work and integrate need to be paid fairly and provided protections from employers like Musk. It's possible to be both pro-immigration and against worker abuse and exploitation.
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I still see it as propaganda. From my point of view it’s perfectly fair to strike a deal with H-1B workers in terms of restrictive working conditions and lower wages in return for the privilege of lucrative jobs in the United States. This is a deal that immigrants are willing to make.
Indian Americans are the highest earning ethnic group in the United States. They come here willingly and are not being oppressed.
I was also subjected to similar conditions when I immigrated to my current country. It was a deal that I was willing to make.
I feel that the H-1B workers as slaves narrative is a prime example of black and white leftist victim mentality which forces one to view everything in terms of oppressors and victims. I look at the same scenario and see a win-win deal where each side is freely making a trade.
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I keep seeing this issue popping up on Reddit. I find it mind boggling how many people on the left are willing to adopt populist MAGA talking points straight from the mouths of Steve Bannon and Laura Loomer just because they hate Elon Musk and have to be against everything that he says.
Restricting high-skilled legal immigration in order to drive up wages and hire less competent workers hurts the country, period. It’s a classic example of populist stupidity.
It's because a lot of people don't truly want the best worker to get the job, nor do they like the idea of actual competition. That's why they call it the "American dream" and not the "global dream". They want everyone in society to get paid a half-arsed wage. They don't want the unskilled workers to get paid the dregs they'd get in a market system and they don't want superstars smashing it and earning $500k or $1m a year on talent alone. So they want a system that reduces outliers...and part of that is restricting migration of all types.
By definition, anything that's populist is likely to be wrong-headed.
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Those are fine - any that are based on contributions made over a lifetime, even if the employer/government boosts it a bit.
I'm talking about widespread pensions that you get unconditionally even if you never worked or paid a cent of income tax in your life.
Uhhhhh what is this widespread pension that you get unconditionally even if you've never worked or paid a cent of income tax in your life that you speak of?
Like, can you be more specific about what specific pension this is? I'm not aware of any pension that pays out benefits that the recipients don't pay into, especially one that is "widespread"...
The definition of a pension is literally this:
pen·sion
[ˈpenSHən]
noun
a regular payment made during a person's retirement from an investment fund to which that person or their employer has contributed during their working life.
I should clarify that I'm Australian, and here every asshole gets a pension on turning 67, unless of course you've done well enough for yourself that you have a steady retirement income of your own (or sufficient assets such as investment property or shares), in which case, you get no pension. Talk about a perverse outcome. It's extremely costly and taxpayers are forced to essentially fund a nest-egg/free inheritance transfer scheme (to subsequent generations) for the middle class.
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I keep seeing this issue popping up on Reddit. I find it mind boggling how many people on the left are willing to adopt populist MAGA talking points straight from the mouths of Steve Bannon and Laura Loomer just because they hate Elon Musk and have to be against everything that he says.
Restricting high-skilled legal immigration in order to drive up wages and hire less competent workers hurts the country, period. It’s a classic example of populist stupidity.
It's because a lot of people don't truly want the best worker to get the job, nor do they like the idea of actual competition. That's why they call it the "American dream" and not the "global dream". They want everyone in society to get paid a half-arsed wage. They don't want the unskilled workers to get paid the dregs they'd get in a market system and they don't want superstars smashing it and earning $500k or $1m a year on talent alone. So they want a system that reduces outliers...and part of that is restricting migration of all types.
By definition, anything that's populist is likely to be wrong-headed.
Who is "they" you mentioned repeatedly?
When I've interviewed people, I always want the best person for the job, because I have to work with them. I don't follow who would have an incentive to deliberately hire incompetent people ("don't truly want the best worker to get the job").
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Realistically we will need to cut pensions/state-funded social security. The idea that the government should be funding your retirement is ridiculous - work for it. I'm fine with some government-backed social security programme that gives people tax concessions, etc, to encourage them to save up for their own retirements, but the idea of a permanent and unconditional retirement income for doing nothing is just...strange.
In the U.S., this can't happen. People over age 65, collecting social security, are the largest voting block. They are also the most consistent voters. A politician who suggests eliminating social security will not be re-elected, as the largest voting block will make sure of it.
Separately from that, social security is mostly from people who pay into the program. Every paycheck, social security tax is withdrawn. But for those who make more than a certain amount ($125k?), the upper portion of their income isn't taxed. So one proposal is to increase the range where social security tax applies.
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I am strongly in favor of increasing H-1B quotas and legal immigration. It will make the United States stronger.
...
Following this line of thought, the best way forward to keep the lid on American wages for highly skilled workers would be to continue to wreck public education ...
You brought up things not discussed in that post (keep the kid on wages, wreck public education), followed by saying how much you dislike the things you just brought up. Do you even need to quote someone's post, when your thoughts have nothing to do with theirs?
What do you think happens to Americans tech wages with an increase in H1-B visas: they go up?
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I keep seeing this issue popping up on Reddit. I find it mind boggling how many people on the left are willing to adopt populist MAGA talking points straight from the mouths of Steve Bannon and Laura Loomer just because they hate Elon Musk and have to be against everything that he says.
Restricting high-skilled legal immigration in order to drive up wages and hire less competent workers hurts the country, period. It’s a classic example of populist stupidity.
It's because a lot of people don't truly want the best worker to get the job, nor do they like the idea of actual competition. That's why they call it the "American dream" and not the "global dream". They want everyone in society to get paid a half-arsed wage. They don't want the unskilled workers to get paid the dregs they'd get in a market system and they don't want superstars smashing it and earning $500k or $1m a year on talent alone. So they want a system that reduces outliers...and part of that is restricting migration of all types.
By definition, anything that's populist is likely to be wrong-headed.
Who is "they" you mentioned repeatedly?
When I've interviewed people, I always want the best person for the job, because I have to work with them. I don't follow who would have an incentive to deliberately hire incompetent people ("don't truly want the best worker to get the job").
I have to say, many people in a UAW plant I formerly worked in had exactly this attitude. They believed the company was immortal, and had an attitude of milking the cow for all it was worth. Newer people who worked extra hard or tried to introduce efficiencies that conflicted with work definitions were harassed and resisted.
Here is a real example: as we moved to computer-controlled equipment in the 1990's, the electricians in the plant argued that any engineer working on them had to have an electrician present. The argument hung on the fact that when the work rules were set, an engineer would design the controls of the system, and an electrician would wire the relays to enact it. Some reduced this "execution" work to hitting the Enter key when the engineer was done programming. The electricians had no skill nor aptitude for software, nor did they want the responsibility for design; they just wanted their cut.
The plant is a parking lot now, along with many others. And many lament the end of their way of life. I am very sad for the overall state of that city, but good riddance to that mentality, which was leading the way in the race to the bottom.
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I still see it as propaganda. From my point of view it’s perfectly fair to strike a deal with H-1B workers in terms of restrictive working conditions and lower wages in return for the privilege of lucrative jobs in the United States. This is a deal that immigrants are willing to make.
Indian Americans are the highest earning ethnic group in the United States. They come here willingly and are not being oppressed.
I was also subjected to similar conditions when I immigrated to my current country. It was a deal that I was willing to make.
I feel that the H-1B workers as slaves narrative is a prime example of black and white leftist victim mentality which forces one to view everything in terms of oppressors and victims. I look at the same scenario and see a win-win deal where each side is freely making a trade.
The practical side of me asks if you're getting the top 1% or just the top 1% of immigrants willing to make that trade. The theoretical side of me is saddened to read that complaining about rules of engagement being worse than they might otherwise be is "leftist victim mentality." To be extreme, people from Syria would happily accept 50 lashes a day for an H1B but that doesn't mean setting it up that way is the best for society.
I agree with the conclusion in an earlier statement you made that talent is a numbers game but we mustn't forget that distributions are not the same. For a simplistic example, China and India are nowhere near dominant in international soccer.
Were I king I'd increase all manners of talent immigration with a pathway to citizenship for all. Mind, I'm as much a king as I am an economist.
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I still see it as propaganda. From my point of view it’s perfectly fair to strike a deal with H-1B workers in terms of restrictive working conditions and lower wages in return for the privilege of lucrative jobs in the United States. This is a deal that immigrants are willing to make.
Indian Americans are the highest earning ethnic group in the United States. They come here willingly and are not being oppressed.
I was also subjected to similar conditions when I immigrated to my current country. It was a deal that I was willing to make.
I feel that the H-1B workers as slaves narrative is a prime example of black and white leftist victim mentality which forces one to view everything in terms of oppressors and victims. I look at the same scenario and see a win-win deal where each side is freely making a trade.
It's definitely not just propaganda, H1B abuse is pretty rampant, particularly in tech. This has been an issue for Dems for a very long time while republicans were all like "it's the free market baby need the top talents". Ending H1B abuse and using immigration to attract top talent is something dems should support, decreasing H1B over protectionist fears is not something that should be supported. However Musk is not wanting to end H1B abuse, he wants to more of it. So Dems shouldn't support what he wants.
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I am strongly in favor of increasing H-1B quotas and legal immigration. It will make the United States stronger.
...
Following this line of thought, the best way forward to keep the lid on American wages for highly skilled workers would be to continue to wreck public education ...
You brought up things not discussed in that post (keep the kid on wages, wreck public education), followed by saying how much you dislike the things you just brought up. Do you even need to quote someone's post, when your thoughts have nothing to do with theirs?
What do you think happens to Americans tech wages with an increase in H1-B visas: they go up?
If you spit in the ocean, do sea levels rise?
"The H-1B visa is extremely tech focused, with total software developers making up 38% of all applications."
https://www.visualcapitalist.com/the-data-behind-americas-h-1b-visa-program/
Those 25,000 software engineers using H-1B visas add just 0.6% to the existing pool of 4.4 million software engineers in the U.S. Tech companies aren't relying on this trickle of critical talent to grow their business. They are growing at double digits, not fractions of 1%.
Tech companies have already shifted lots of software engineering work outside the U.S. Look at software companies like Google and Microsoft, which have offices in dozens of countries. To keep growing, they had to hire local talent locally. In my opinion, that shifting of work abroad probably has done more to slow the growth of salaries than the number of H-1B visas.
https://www.google.com/about/careers/applications/locations/
https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/worldwide
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I am strongly in favor of increasing H-1B quotas and legal immigration. It will make the United States stronger.
...
Following this line of thought, the best way forward to keep the lid on American wages for highly skilled workers would be to continue to wreck public education ...
You brought up things not discussed in that post (keep the kid on wages, wreck public education), followed by saying how much you dislike the things you just brought up. Do you even need to quote someone's post, when your thoughts have nothing to do with theirs?
What do you think happens to Americans tech wages with an increase in H1-B visas: they go up?
If you spit in the ocean, do sea levels rise?
"The H-1B visa is extremely tech focused, with total software developers making up 38% of all applications."
https://www.visualcapitalist.com/the-data-behind-americas-h-1b-visa-program/
Those 25,000 software engineers using H-1B visas add just 0.6% to the existing pool of 4.4 million software engineers in the U.S. Tech companies aren't relying on this trickle of critical talent to grow their business. They are growing at double digits, not fractions of 1%.
Tech companies have already shifted lots of software engineering work outside the U.S. Look at software companies like Google and Microsoft, which have offices in dozens of countries. To keep growing, they had to hire local talent locally. In my opinion, that shifting of work abroad probably has done more to slow the growth of salaries than the number of H-1B visas.
https://www.google.com/about/careers/applications/locations/
https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/worldwide
Well, I guess there is nothing to see here - but if it were such a nothingburger, I wonder why Musk is getting so agitated about it.
Must be because at least Tesla is increasing H-1B hires and Musk and others want to greatly expand the program.
Fact is that H-1B is a non-immigrant visa with the authorization to reside and work in the US contingent on ongoing employment with the sponsoring employer.
This gives the sponsor leverage over the employee that the employer does not have over American workers (notwithstanding the 60 days grace period to find another sponsor after termination of employment).
The H-1B visa program thus provides a workforce with limited recourse in the face of coercion.
That H-1B visa holders are only a small part of the entire workforce doesn't mean that the effect of their availability is not felt when it comes to hiring decisions and salary negotiations.
In any case, the presence of coercible foreign labor with limited rights hurts American workers and is not acceptable.
The non-immigrant H-1B visa needs to be eliminated and replaced by immigrant visas, and temporary work visas that are not tied to ongoing employment with a sponsor, in order to break the forced loyalty the H-1B visa imposes.
The overall effect of the H-1B program and its expansion is offshoring of higher education and onshoring of coercible foreign labor and this needs to stop.
Tesla joins top H-1B employers list as Musk pushes for reforms to expand visa program
ET OnlineLast Updated: Jan 02, 2025
Musk, who himself worked in the US on an H-1B visa early in his career, has become one of the most vocal supporters of the program, which allows US companies to hire foreign workers for skilled positions. "I'm in America along with so many critical people who built SpaceX, Tesla and hundreds of other companies that made America strong because of H-1B," Musk posted on his social media platform X.
Tesla's rise on the H-1B list follows a broader trend in the tech industry, where companies have long advocated for expanding the number of H-1B visas granted by the US government. The program, which is capped at 65,000 new visas annually, with an additional 20,000 available for workers holding advanced degrees, has been a critical pathway for skilled workers, particularly from countries like India, China, and the Philippines.
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/nri/work/tesla-joins-top-h-1b-employers-list-as-musk-pushes-for-reforms-to-expand-visa-program/articleshow/116846682.cms?utm_source=contentofinterest&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=cppst
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I disagree with Vivek and Elon on the policies they want to bring forth, but I too have always wondered why most Americans look up to the prom queens and jocks of the world. They would rather their kids be athletic and popular in school than end up as nerds. They sign their kids up for sports that take up 20 hours a week and cost $XX,XXX a year, instead of saving that money for college or spending it on a tutor. Many kids who compete at the elite level in sports are homeschooled. And the homeschooling they do receive just covers the academic basics so they can dedicate 6-8 hours a day to their sport. What are the chances that any kid will be able to make a living as an athlete? Almost none. The median professional athlete barely scrapes by, and is riddled with injuries. Whereas the median professional in any nerdy field makes a very comfortable living. I don't think parents should push their kids into careers they have no interest in, of course. But why do both parents and kids care so much about athleticism and popularity when most of it is fleeting?
It's rare that I see this much wild conjecture, sweeping generalizations, assumptions and piles of straw men in a single post!
Do you have a source for.... any of this?
Yes. Elite gymnastics requires 20-30 hours of training per week, according to the official USA Gymnastics organization.
Source: https://usagym.org/men/pathways/usag-elite-track/#:~:text=The%20focus%20of%20the%20Elite,20%20%E2%80%93%2030%20hours%20per%20week
Simone Biles' gym has its own school for athletes with 4 hours of instruction a day, including lunch. It has 2 teachers total for its middle and high school program, and offers no AP classes. But I'm sure this is as good as it gets as far as homeschooling full-time athletes goes. Source: https://www.academyatwcc.com/classes/7-12-lit-ss-sci-math
Parents spend $10k-20k per year on a kid who plays hockey. Source: https://thehockeythinktank.com/the-costs-of-aaa-hockey/
Canadian boys who play hockey each have a 0.025% chance of getting drafted into the NHL. Source: https://www.hockeycanada.ca/en-ca/news/2003-gn-001-en
A ballet education costs $120,000 in 2015 dollars, or around $158,800 in today's dollars. Ballet students train around 20 hours a week, 6 out of 7 days.
Sources: https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/high-price-of-ballet-diversity-misty-copeland/
https://cpyb.org/what-is-a-pre-professional-dancer/#:~:text=Pre%2Dprofessional%20dancers%20dedicate%20several%20hours%20a%20day%2C%20often%20six%20days%20a%20week%2C%20to%20rigorous%20training%20that
https://balletscoop.com/2011/08/03/is-my-class-schedule-pre-professional/
Meanwhile, starting ballerinas earn $20k-60k a year, and that $60k is probably in an expensive city. Source: https://danceivy.com/blogs/news/ballerina-salary-range-beyond-the-stage
Yet so many people want to be professional ballerinas that there are about 100 applicants per job opening. Source: https://www.balletscout.info/blogs/navigating-ballet-auditions-and-jobs-in-an-evolving-competitive-job-market-none/#:~:text=A%20Highly%20Competitive%20Field&text=This%20is%20especially%20true%20for,for%20a%20handful%20of%20positions.
Oh, and dancers retire from their professional careers around age 38. Source: https://datapointesguide.com/generalretirement
The age retirement age for the NBA, NFL, NHL, etc. is much younger too, with the average NFL career being around 3 years long.
Ok sure, and...? Expensive and intense athletics exists. No surprise? Does everyone do this? Do even 1% of kids do this?
My issues was with:
"most Americans look up to the prom queens and jocks of the world."
[citation needed]
"They sign their kids up for sports that take up 20 hours a week "
Who are "they"? I know a few dozen parents, the most extreme do 3 hrs/week of athletics.
"But why do both parents and kids care so much about athleticism and popularity"
Who does? Most, all? 5%? Based on what?
How do you know most parents look up to athletes and/or "popular" people? What is this based on? Are you sure there isn't at least an equal number of parents/kids who (quietly) strive to do well in STEM fields, get into MIT, Stanford etc? Who look up to titans in tech industry, programmers at Google with $250k starting salaries, people who make an app in they 20s and sell it for a gazillion dollars? Nobody looks up to this? Is there a survey that shows a majority of parents would be disappointed if their children become doctors, lawyers or engineers, rather than trying to playing professional basketball? I'm sure some/a few do, but can you tell me how many parents are working on getting their kids to become pros in the NBA, NFL etc?
And pretty misleading to talk about "kids", then cite numbers for people who work to become professional ballet dancers. (and per your link it's "only" 10-15 hr/week up to age 15..). That's not some kids doing afterschool activities, that' the most extreme of the extreme. How many kids are we talking about who do that?
Quick google tells me there are 6,363 students at ballet schools in the US. If we just assume that 1% of all who try to go to ballet school actually do (no idea what actual number is), that means 636,300 kids do this intense 12-20 hr/week regimen. Out of 73,6 M kids in the US, that means 0.865%. Sorry, i won't accept extrapolating from <1% to say that "parents" sign their kids up for 20 hrs a week, as if that's in any way the norm!
And by the way, many surveys of kids about what they want to do when they grow up is topped by things like "youtuber/influencer" and "esports". Hardly the realm of (traditional) athletics!
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Those 25,000 software engineers using H-1B visas add just 0.6% to the existing pool of 4.4 million software engineers in the U.S. Tech companies aren't relying on this trickle of critical talent to grow their business. They are growing at double digits, not fractions of 1%.
This isn’t entirely accurate. Top tech companies like Google, Amazon, and Microsoft have well over 50% of their tech workforce as H-1B or former H-1B. US citizens are a minority there. It’s the smaller, less selective companies that mostly hire US citizens.
https://www.mercurynews.com/2018/01/17/h-1b-foreign-citizens-make-up-nearly-three-quarters-of-silicon-valley-tech-workforce-report-says/
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Those 25,000 software engineers using H-1B visas add just 0.6% to the existing pool of 4.4 million software engineers in the U.S. Tech companies aren't relying on this trickle of critical talent to grow their business. They are growing at double digits, not fractions of 1%.
This isn’t entirely accurate. Top tech companies like Google, Amazon, and Microsoft have well over 50% of their tech workforce as H-1B or former H-1B. US citizens are a minority there. It’s the smaller, less selective companies that mostly hire US citizens.
https://www.mercurynews.com/2018/01/17/h-1b-foreign-citizens-make-up-nearly-three-quarters-of-silicon-valley-tech-workforce-report-says/
Right; the quoted number is annual visas. They can last up to 6 years.
And I see 29.5 + 11.4 + 8.5 + 7.2 + 1.9 = 58.5% of applications are software types, so 161k a year, up to 965k at any one time. So, nearly 1 in 4, nationally.
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Those are fine - any that are based on contributions made over a lifetime, even if the employer/government boosts it a bit.
I'm talking about widespread pensions that you get unconditionally even if you never worked or paid a cent of income tax in your life.
How about stay at home parents and caregivers?
I disagree, this kind of attitude leads to seniors on the streets. If you want that kind of society there are plenty of countries with them, you don't need to transform the US to find one.
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Those are fine - any that are based on contributions made over a lifetime, even if the employer/government boosts it a bit.
I'm talking about widespread pensions that you get unconditionally even if you never worked or paid a cent of income tax in your life.
How about stay at home parents and caregivers?
I disagree, this kind of attitude leads to seniors on the streets. If you want that kind of society there are plenty of countries with them, you don't need to transform the US to find one.
Anyone giving care to an elderly or disabled person should get a government allowance, but that's a specific carers' allowance, not an unconditional allowance.
Stay at home parents (of children) - I struggle to see how this would be relevant at retirement age.
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Those are fine - any that are based on contributions made over a lifetime, even if the employer/government boosts it a bit.
I'm talking about widespread pensions that you get unconditionally even if you never worked or paid a cent of income tax in your life.
How about stay at home parents and caregivers?
I disagree, this kind of attitude leads to seniors on the streets. If you want that kind of society there are plenty of countries with them, you don't need to transform the US to find one.
Anyone giving care to an elderly or disabled person should get a government allowance, but that's a specific carers' allowance, not an unconditional allowance.
Stay at home parents (of children) - I struggle to see how this would be relevant at retirement age.
You struggle to see how someone who dedicate years of their lives to raising the country's future doesn't deserve to live on the street in the their old age?... Maybe that's a you problem
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Those are fine - any that are based on contributions made over a lifetime, even if the employer/government boosts it a bit.
I'm talking about widespread pensions that you get unconditionally even if you never worked or paid a cent of income tax in your life.
How about stay at home parents and caregivers?
I disagree, this kind of attitude leads to seniors on the streets. If you want that kind of society there are plenty of countries with them, you don't need to transform the US to find one.
Anyone giving care to an elderly or disabled person should get a government allowance, but that's a specific carers' allowance, not an unconditional allowance.
Stay at home parents (of children) - I struggle to see how this would be relevant at retirement age.
You struggle to see how someone who dedicate years of their lives to raising the country's future doesn't deserve to live on the street in the their old age?... Maybe that's a you problem
It's not like it's impossible to work/save for retirement while having a kid. And even if you spend, say, 6 years of your life out of the workforce entirely to raise a child to primary school age, that still leaves about 35-40 years of working life. Hell, let's be generous and say that you're such a dedicated parent that you spend 12 years of your life out of the workforce entirely and you have 2 non concurrent children so that's 24 years taken out of the workforce. You still have 23 years to work and save for retirement.
There could also be a safety net allowance given to anyone in the situation you described who can demonstrate that he or she has no assets and no income. That would still be far cheaper than the unconditional pension that my country gives people even if they have substantial assets and every capability to pay for their own retirement out of their savings and their home equity.
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Those 25,000 software engineers using H-1B visas add just 0.6% to the existing pool of 4.4 million software engineers in the U.S. Tech companies aren't relying on this trickle of critical talent to grow their business. They are growing at double digits, not fractions of 1%.
This isn’t entirely accurate. Top tech companies like Google, Amazon, and Microsoft have well over 50% of their tech workforce as H-1B or former H-1B. US citizens are a minority there. It’s the smaller, less selective companies that mostly hire US citizens.
https://www.mercurynews.com/2018/01/17/h-1b-foreign-citizens-make-up-nearly-three-quarters-of-silicon-valley-tech-workforce-report-says/
My point was their overall contribution is small, while you're focusing on the big tech vs small company split. Google and Apple hired the most in 2018 (the date of your article), a combined 4,500 out of the 25,000 total (my estimate, 38% of 65k). I believe those top tech companies pay the highest salaries, so I'm not sure how this addresses the point I brought up. The highest paid salaries are at companies that make the most use of H-1B visas, so H-1B visas aren't the key factor in lower salaries.
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Those 25,000 software engineers using H-1B visas add just 0.6% to the existing pool of 4.4 million software engineers in the U.S. Tech companies aren't relying on this trickle of critical talent to grow their business. They are growing at double digits, not fractions of 1%.
This isn’t entirely accurate. Top tech companies like Google, Amazon, and Microsoft have well over 50% of their tech workforce as H-1B or former H-1B. US citizens are a minority there. It’s the smaller, less selective companies that mostly hire US citizens.
https://www.mercurynews.com/2018/01/17/h-1b-foreign-citizens-make-up-nearly-three-quarters-of-silicon-valley-tech-workforce-report-says/
Right; the quoted number is annual visas. They can last up to 6 years.
And I see 29.5 + 11.4 + 8.5 + 7.2 + 1.9 = 58.5% of applications are software types, so 161k a year, up to 965k at any one time. So, nearly 1 in 4, nationally.
Where are you getting these numbers?
"161k a year" is not possible for H-1B visas, which are limited to 65k/year:
"Congress set the current annual regular cap for the H-1B category at 65,000."
https://www.uscis.gov/working-in-the-united-states/temporary-workers/h-1b-specialty-occupations/h-1b-cap-season
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My point was their overall contribution is small, while you're focusing on the big tech vs small company split. Google and Apple hired the most in 2018 (the date of your article), a combined 4,500 out of the 25,000 total (my estimate, 38% of 65k). I believe those top tech companies pay the highest salaries, so I'm not sure how this addresses the point I brought up. The highest paid salaries are at companies that make the most use of H-1B visas, so H-1B visas aren't the key factor in lower salaries.
The point I’m making is that the DOGE people who represent big tech have a point in this debate, which is that elite tech companies heavily rely on H-1Bs to source top talent. And it’s the elite tech companies that make the United States strong, disproportionate to the small companies.
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Those 25,000 software engineers using H-1B visas add just 0.6% to the existing pool of 4.4 million software engineers in the U.S. Tech companies aren't relying on this trickle of critical talent to grow their business. They are growing at double digits, not fractions of 1%.
This isn’t entirely accurate. Top tech companies like Google, Amazon, and Microsoft have well over 50% of their tech workforce as H-1B or former H-1B. US citizens are a minority there. It’s the smaller, less selective companies that mostly hire US citizens.
https://www.mercurynews.com/2018/01/17/h-1b-foreign-citizens-make-up-nearly-three-quarters-of-silicon-valley-tech-workforce-report-says/
Right; the quoted number is annual visas. They can last up to 6 years.
And I see 29.5 + 11.4 + 8.5 + 7.2 + 1.9 = 58.5% of applications are software types, so 161k a year, up to 965k at any one time. So, nearly 1 in 4, nationally.
Where are you getting these numbers?
"161k a year" is not possible for H-1B visas, which are limited to 65k/year:
"Congress set the current annual regular cap for the H-1B category at 65,000."
https://www.uscis.gov/working-in-the-united-states/temporary-workers/h-1b-specialty-occupations/h-1b-cap-season
Now that I go back and look, I think I was looking at applications, not grants. So my bad.
I still stand by my point that they last up to 6 years, so the working number (compared to total working software types) is a multiple of that.
The total is actually 85,000. There are 20,000 additionally reserved for applicants who received a master's degree from a US university.
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My point was their overall contribution is small, while you're focusing on the big tech vs small company split. Google and Apple hired the most in 2018 (the date of your article), a combined 4,500 out of the 25,000 total (my estimate, 38% of 65k). I believe those top tech companies pay the highest salaries, so I'm not sure how this addresses the point I brought up. The highest paid salaries are at companies that make the most use of H-1B visas, so H-1B visas aren't the key factor in lower salaries.
The point I’m making is that the DOGE people who represent big tech have a point in this debate, which is that elite tech companies heavily rely on H-1Bs to source top talent. And it’s the elite tech companies that make the United States strong, disproportionate to the small companies.
The article you linked says foreign-born not H1B. There's like 13 million green card holders in the US. That same article says that most H1Bs are taken by outsourcing companies from India.
There's just not enough H1Bs today to say anything like big tech dominance relies heavily on this group nor that they have a huge impact on America as a whole. Plenty of research suggests employers hire H1Bs then underpay and overwork them which hurts all employees and lowers wages. Seriously, read the criticisms section of the wikipedia page https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/H-1B_visa (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/H-1B_visa)
So we're left with: why does DOGE want more people to come to America on H1B vs. another method? All of these big tech companies have international offices and can bypass H1b for their very strong performer to begin with so why not start there. https://www.uscis.gov/working-in-the-united-states/permanent-workers/employment-based-immigration-first-preference-eb-1 (https://www.uscis.gov/working-in-the-united-states/permanent-workers/employment-based-immigration-first-preference-eb-1)
Reminder that I say that as someone in favor of more immigration of every variety, including H1B.
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Those are fine - any that are based on contributions made over a lifetime, even if the employer/government boosts it a bit.
I'm talking about widespread pensions that you get unconditionally even if you never worked or paid a cent of income tax in your life.
How about stay at home parents and caregivers?
I disagree, this kind of attitude leads to seniors on the streets. If you want that kind of society there are plenty of countries with them, you don't need to transform the US to find one.
Anyone giving care to an elderly or disabled person should get a government allowance, but that's a specific carers' allowance, not an unconditional allowance.
Stay at home parents (of children) - I struggle to see how this would be relevant at retirement age.
You struggle to see how someone who dedicate years of their lives to raising the country's future doesn't deserve to live on the street in the their old age?... Maybe that's a you problem
It's not like it's impossible to work/save for retirement while having a kid. And even if you spend, say, 6 years of your life out of the workforce entirely to raise a child to primary school age, that still leaves about 35-40 years of working life. Hell, let's be generous and say that you're such a dedicated parent that you spend 12 years of your life out of the workforce entirely and you have 2 non concurrent children so that's 24 years taken out of the workforce. You still have 23 years to work and save for retirement.
There could also be a safety net allowance given to anyone in the situation you described who can demonstrate that he or she has no assets and no income. That would still be far cheaper than the unconditional pension that my country gives people even if they have substantial assets and every capability to pay for their own retirement out of their savings and their home equity.
Well, that's basically how it is. If you have no assets/income, even if you haven't worked you get SSI. A whole $770/month!
https://www.greemantoomey.com/you-can-collect-social-security-benefits-even-if-youve-never-worked/#:~:text=Although%20many%20of%20the%20programs,Supplemental%20Security%20Income%20(SSI).
And from my limited understanding, most (civilized) countries have such a system where old people with nothing get some money regardless, so they don't die on the streets. Which is reasonable in my opinion, but you can disagree if you want. Quite a few on the right do. But in general we as a society have decided we're ok with this system (for now..), to prevent elderly in destitute poverty, as was common before social security existed.
I think you said you're in Australia? From my google this is what is says, there is an asset/income test. Its not "unconditional".
"Age Pension, which is a government payment available to Australians who are 67 years or older, meet residency requirements, and pass an income and assets test, regardless of their work history"
https://www.servicesaustralia.gov.au/who-can-get-age-pension?context=22526
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The problem with Australia's assets and income test is that the primary place of residence is completely exempted, so you can sit on a $2m house and not have to use any of that equity and still get a full pension (you and your spouse both).
Even that aside, you can have hundreds of thousands in liquid assets (PLUS the family home) and still get a full pension. That shit needs to be reined in. Use up your assets, then you can get government support. Otherwise I am paying taxes so that millionaires can transmit their houses to their kids, tax free, on death.
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My point was their overall contribution is small, while you're focusing on the big tech vs small company split. Google and Apple hired the most in 2018 (the date of your article), a combined 4,500 out of the 25,000 total (my estimate, 38% of 65k). I believe those top tech companies pay the highest salaries, so I'm not sure how this addresses the point I brought up. The highest paid salaries are at companies that make the most use of H-1B visas, so H-1B visas aren't the key factor in lower salaries.
The point I’m making is that the DOGE people who represent big tech have a point in this debate, which is that elite tech companies heavily rely on H-1Bs to source top talent. And it’s the elite tech companies that make the United States strong, disproportionate to the small companies.
The article you linked says foreign-born not H1B. There's like 13 million green card holders in the US. That same article says that most H1Bs are taken by outsourcing companies from India.
There's just not enough H1Bs today to say anything like big tech dominance relies heavily on this group nor that they have a huge impact on America as a whole. Plenty of research suggests employers hire H1Bs then underpay and overwork them which hurts all employees and lowers wages. Seriously, read the criticisms section of the wikipedia page https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/H-1B_visa (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/H-1B_visa)
So we're left with: why does DOGE want more people to come to America on H1B vs. another method? All of these big tech companies have international offices and can bypass H1b for their very strong performer to begin with so why not start there. https://www.uscis.gov/working-in-the-united-states/permanent-workers/employment-based-immigration-first-preference-eb-1 (https://www.uscis.gov/working-in-the-united-states/permanent-workers/employment-based-immigration-first-preference-eb-1)
Reminder that I say that as someone in favor of more immigration of every variety, including H1B.
One paper from over 20 years ago isn't "plenty of research", in my view. That wikipedia page cites frofessor Norman Matloff's criticisms, and link to the following paper from April 2003.
https://www.cs.ucdavis.edu/~matloff/H1BSummary.pdf
Is there other evidence of unfair labor practices with H-1B visa holders?
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My point was their overall contribution is small, while you're focusing on the big tech vs small company split. Google and Apple hired the most in 2018 (the date of your article), a combined 4,500 out of the 25,000 total (my estimate, 38% of 65k). I believe those top tech companies pay the highest salaries, so I'm not sure how this addresses the point I brought up. The highest paid salaries are at companies that make the most use of H-1B visas, so H-1B visas aren't the key factor in lower salaries.
The point I’m making is that the DOGE people who represent big tech have a point in this debate, which is that elite tech companies heavily rely on H-1Bs to source top talent. And it’s the elite tech companies that make the United States strong, disproportionate to the small companies.
The article you linked says foreign-born not H1B. There's like 13 million green card holders in the US. That same article says that most H1Bs are taken by outsourcing companies from India.
There's just not enough H1Bs today to say anything like big tech dominance relies heavily on this group nor that they have a huge impact on America as a whole. Plenty of research suggests employers hire H1Bs then underpay and overwork them which hurts all employees and lowers wages. Seriously, read the criticisms section of the wikipedia page https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/H-1B_visa (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/H-1B_visa)
So we're left with: why does DOGE want more people to come to America on H1B vs. another method? All of these big tech companies have international offices and can bypass H1b for their very strong performer to begin with so why not start there. https://www.uscis.gov/working-in-the-united-states/permanent-workers/employment-based-immigration-first-preference-eb-1 (https://www.uscis.gov/working-in-the-united-states/permanent-workers/employment-based-immigration-first-preference-eb-1)
Reminder that I say that as someone in favor of more immigration of every variety, including H1B.
One paper from over 20 years ago isn't "plenty of research", in my view. That wikipedia page cites frofessor Norman Matloff's criticisms, and link to the following paper from April 2003.
https://www.cs.ucdavis.edu/~matloff/H1BSummary.pdf
Is there other evidence of unfair labor practices with H-1B visa holders?
There's subheadings under criticism on that page that might not have popped out.
On wages
Wage depression
Wage depression as a result of an increased supply of discounted guest workers is a chronic complaint critics have about the H-1B program. In the 21st century, labor experts have found that guest workers are abundantly available in times of wage decline and weak workforce demand.[177]
The Economic Policy Institute found that sixty percent of certified H-1B positions were below the local median wage. In Washington D.C, companies hiring a level 1 entry-level H-1B software developer received a discount of 36%, or $41,746. For level II workers, companies received a discount of 18%, or $20,863.[189]
In 2014, The Department of Homeland Security annual report indicates that H-1B workers in the field of Computer Science are paid a mean salary of $75,000 annually, almost 25,000 dollars below the average annual income for software developers [190] and studies have found that H-1B workers are paid significantly less than U.S. workers.[191][192] It is claimed that the H-1B program is primarily used as a source of cheap labor.[193][194][195][196][197][198][199]
I'm ignorant on immigration but here were some things I read as I had a fun day googling around on this.
one of those sources to call out about wages, I think 189 above. {California Attorney General’s former senior advisor on immigration and labor}
https://www.epi.org/publication/h-1b-visas-and-prevailing-wage-levels/ (https://www.epi.org/publication/h-1b-visas-and-prevailing-wage-levels/)
I read this as criticizing the impact on wage and job mobility.
https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=4010152 (https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=4010152)
This look at accounting data says H1Bs get paid 10% less but no negative impact to wages for others.
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10551-024-05823-8 (https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10551-024-05823-8)
old. https://cis.org/sites/cis.org/files/articles/2005/back1305.pdf (https://cis.org/sites/cis.org/files/articles/2005/back1305.pdf)
The Center for Immigration Studies (CIS), a group critical of expanding the visa, claims that H-1B workers in Information Technology (IT) related occupations are paid approximately thirteen thousand dollars less than American workers, and that the H-1B program is little more than a source of cheap labor.
Referencing the body shop problem, why half of the top H1B holding companies have been Indian outsourcing shops for 30 years...
The Indian Minister of Commerce has dubbed the H-1B visa the “outsourcing visa.
Elsewhere there were anecdotes from tech executives anonymously saying they want these body shops.
This 2023 paper by a longtime prominent cabinet member republican offers a pretty damning review of how and why companies use H1B. I guess it is comforting that things haven't changed since the 1990s. A lot of interesting history about previous temporary increases to H1B visa and OPT numbers in an earlier tech boom.
https://cis.org/Fishman/DHSs-OPT-Rule-Contempt-Congress-American-Workers-and-American-Students (https://cis.org/Fishman/DHSs-OPT-Rule-Contempt-Congress-American-Workers-and-American-Students)
A follow-up published two days ago brought out these key points from Trump round 1's DHS.
[The H-1B program has had an] adverse effect on similarly employed U.S.
workers... downward pressure on wages in industries and occupations with concentrations of relatively lower-paid H-1B workers.
https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/FR-2020-11-02/pdf/2020-24259.pdf
This was why Trump round 1 criticized H1b as a method for Silicon Valley to pay lower wages.
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/trump-h-1b_b_5890d86ce4b0522c7d3d84af (https://www.huffpost.com/entry/trump-h-1b_b_5890d86ce4b0522c7d3d84af)
https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/FR-2021-01-08/pdf/2021-00183.pdf
[Level 1 and 2] salaries … are significantly lower than local median salaries — typically 20 to 40 percent lower than the median. H-1B employers can reap significant savings by selecting one of the two lowest wage levels. … Major U.S.-based technology firms that hire H-1B workers directly … had significant shares of their certified H-1B positions assigned as Level 1 or Level 2 … in fiscal 2019…
Amazon and Microsoft each had three-fourths or more of their H-1B positions assigned as Level 1 or Level 2.
Walmart and Uber had roughly half of their H-1B positions assigned as Level 1 or Level 2.
IBM had three-fifths of its H-1B positions assigned as Level 1 or Level 2.
Qualcomm and Salesforce had two-fifths of their H-1B positions assigned as Level 1 or Level 2.
Google had over one-half assigned as Level 2.
Apple had one-third of its H-1B positions assigned as Level 2.
Firms appear to systematically misclassify prevailing wage skill levels by selecting levels far below the actual skills (education and experience) of the worker and/or duties of the position. … For example, the San Jose Mercury News published analysis showing that Uber Technologies assigned Level 2 wages to positions it described as “senior software engineer” even though DOL guidance recommends a minimum of Level 3.
It just goes on and on about the wage aspect. It seems clear H1B holders get paid less. It seems overwhelmingly clear that firms want these employees so they can pay them less not because they are the best and the brightest.
Without wading into wider conversation about capitalism, I wouldn't begrudge people on one end of the spectrum feeling that wage is part of worker conditions. There's probably people who think these jobs could go to Americans and are mad they don't. Others would just ask why not increase supply of workers, and I'd agree with them. I just can't understand why do we want more of these temporary workers instead of increasing how many can be permanent ones? As it is we're essentially letting privately owned US companies sell the right to live and work in America for a few years. Why not go actually go after the best and brightest through increasing EB-1 numbers?
This paper would tie wages directly to worker conditions for H1b holders, in my layman read. I'm inferring can use wage as a worker condition once you see how it changes just like worker conditions do under various circumstances.
https://ecommons.luc.edu/business_facpubs/218/ (https://ecommons.luc.edu/business_facpubs/218/)
I can't access this but imagine it might too, though I'm not sure I care much about a law student's paper.
https://heinonline.org/HOL/LandingPage?handle=hein.journals/hastlj74&div=18&id=&page= (https://heinonline.org/HOL/LandingPage?handle=hein.journals/hastlj74&div=18&id=&page=)
On worker conditions
I'll stay away from the word 'fair.'
This is specifically about H1Bs in tech, but seems more about arbitration and workers rights, highlighting that H1Bs are theoretically vulnerable. I don't think this says much than they think H1B can be better than it is now, not otherwise for or against a cap. This doesn't speak directly to observed bad worker conditions.
https://scholarlycommons.law.cwsl.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1718&context=cwlr (https://scholarlycommons.law.cwsl.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1718&context=cwlr)
{2017}https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2827789 (https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2827789)
The article argues that even perfect enforcement of existing law will not eliminate H-1B worker exploitation because the program includes systemic inequalities and subordinating structures that are modern manifestations of involuntary servitude, debt bondage and unfree labor. The unfree system of labor created by the guest worker program is based in the ways in which threats of deportation and liquidated damages prevent workers from complaining or quitting; the way in which the visa sponsor's control of the guest worker's labor parallels antebellum slave codes; the commodification of immigrant workers as part of the human supply chain; and the lack of citizenship rights guaranteed to these guest workers.
I can't access that article so can't really speak to it, but it does seem they're looking at data instead of just weighing in theoretically. I'm not a lawyer.
The article provides a comprehensive survey of lawsuits brought under the visa laws for prevailing wage violations, wage theft, benching, and liquidated damages. It also discusses lawsuits brought as independent causes of action under state tort and contract law; the TVPA; RICO; and employment discrimination statutes.
From the wikipedia page
Some workers who come to the U.S. on H-1B visas receive poor, unfair, and illegal treatment by brokers who place them with jobs in the US, according to a report published in 2014.[207][208]
[207] and [208] are investigative journalism. So, between a study and anecdata maybe?
https://www.wired.com/2014/11/investigation-reveals-silicon-valleys-abuse-immigrant-tech-workers/ (https://www.wired.com/2014/11/investigation-reveals-silicon-valleys-abuse-immigrant-tech-workers/)
https://revealnews.org/article/job-brokers-steal-wages-entrap-indian-tech-workers-in-us/ (https://revealnews.org/article/job-brokers-steal-wages-entrap-indian-tech-workers-in-us/)
This paper, in my layman opinion, offers a nuanced discussion of how America's laws and enforcement change only over decades through a discussion of H1B's employment rights via legal anecdata. I thought this was super interesting.
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/lapo.12213 (https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/lapo.12213)
more anecdata, I guess, but I only link this to say that I don't think articles like this have much place in a discussion of increasing H1b or not or other visa categories. It is brutal. It provides evidence of exploitation. It is more about implementation and enforcement and a vote for streamlining things which is always good.
https://www.bostonglobe.com/editorials/2013/06/11/your-child-teacher-victim-human-trafficking/dQz2fYPwg6Xkgt1aV6HaiL/story.html (https://www.bostonglobe.com/editorials/2013/06/11/your-child-teacher-victim-human-trafficking/dQz2fYPwg6Xkgt1aV6HaiL/story.html)
Overall I'm not really able to find much non-wage pieces other than anecdata. There is a lot of it. Maybe it's just hard to do studies on this so people default to theory or anecdata?
Just found these interesting.
From the Secretary of labor in 1995, emphasis mine
...what was conceived as a means to meet temporary business needs for unique, highly skilled professionals from abroad is, in fact, being used by some employers to bring in relatively large numbers of foreign workers who may well be displacing U.S. workers and eroding employers’ commitment to the domestic workforce.
I can't say if he's right or wrong about the original intent nor do I particularly care about original intent. But one more reason to ask why increase H1B as opposed to other mechanisms?
The Department of Labor (DOL) has stated explicitly that “non H-1B dependent” employers, or those whose H-1B workers comprise less than 15 percent of its total workforce, may hire a foreign worker even when a qualified American worker wants the job, and may displace an American worker from his job in favor of a foreign worker. Contrary to popular belief, it is only “H-1B dependent” employers who must comply with non-displacement and good faith recruitment requirements. Regulations make it easy to avoid classification as an “H1B dependent” employer, as they allow the employer to count all of its employees (e.g., janitors, secretaries, etc.) when calculating the ratio—not only workers in the particular specialty occupation.
It isn't the point of the paper and I can't access it but the abstract seems to suggest that H1Bs can have a measurable positive impact for startups.
https://pubsonline.informs.org/doi/abs/10.1287/mnsc.2021.4152 (https://pubsonline.informs.org/doi/abs/10.1287/mnsc.2021.4152)
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I remember reading a few articles about the Twitter demand to commit to work all hours, or quit, talking about how the visa holders were forced to stay because they had no choice, they desperately needed the job to stay.
And here we are, with Musk wanting more visa holders. Shocking I tell you, very shocking!
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That's an overwhelming list, but we were discussing plenty of research. As an aside, "unfair labor conditions" is something I recall Bernie Sanders mentioning, and is part of the reason I was curious about this. I don't agree with that take, but calling it unfair financial penalties would be accurate, in my view.
[207] and [208] are investigative journalism. So, between a study and anecdata maybe?
https://www.wired.com/2014/11/investigation-reveals-silicon-valleys-abuse-immigrant-tech-workers/ (https://www.wired.com/2014/11/investigation-reveals-silicon-valleys-abuse-immigrant-tech-workers/)
https://revealnews.org/article/job-brokers-steal-wages-entrap-indian-tech-workers-in-us/ (https://revealnews.org/article/job-brokers-steal-wages-entrap-indian-tech-workers-in-us/)
Reading the wired article without registering is difficult, but I read through the second article.
Indian tech workers can rely on a labor broker. If they try to switch jobs, their employer may sue them - even though in theory, they should be allowed to change jobs without penalty. The article cited one employer with 32 lawsuits against former workers. They also mentioned one case with Apple, but that seemed borderline to me: the worker returned to India for a time, continued working, and the labor broker claimed they should be paid local wages while working in India.
H-1B visa workers who request help from the U.S. government run into contradictory situations. The place where someone worked sued them for not fulfilling their employment. But technically, the labor broker paid their wages. So the Department of Labor concluded they were never employed by the company that was suing them over not fulfilling an employment contract.
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Those are fine - any that are based on contributions made over a lifetime, even if the employer/government boosts it a bit.
I'm talking about widespread pensions that you get unconditionally even if you never worked or paid a cent of income tax in your life.
Uhhhhh what is this widespread pension that you get unconditionally even if you've never worked or paid a cent of income tax in your life that you speak of?
Like, can you be more specific about what specific pension this is? I'm not aware of any pension that pays out benefits that the recipients don't pay into, especially one that is "widespread"...
The definition of a pension is literally this:
pen·sion
[ˈpenSHən]
noun
a regular payment made during a person's retirement from an investment fund to which that person or their employer has contributed during their working life.
SSI for someone with little to no work history is $967 a month. So not much at all and in fact close to $3000 below the poverty level in the US.
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one of those sources to call out about wages, I think 189 above. {California Attorney General’s former senior advisor on immigration and labor}
https://www.epi.org/publication/h-1b-visas-and-prevailing-wage-levels/ (https://www.epi.org/publication/h-1b-visas-and-prevailing-wage-levels/)
I read this as criticizing the impact on wage and job mobility.
https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=4010152 (https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=4010152)
The Economic Policy Institute link has a good summary quote:
"Major U.S. firms use the H-1B program to pay low wages. Among the top 30 H-1B employers are major U.S. firms including Amazon, Microsoft, Walmart, Google, Apple, and Facebook. All of them take advantage of program rules in order to legally pay many of their H-1B workers below the local median wage for the jobs they fill."
The SSRN research paper talks of concentration lowering wages. The lottery system awards more H-1B visas to companies that file more applications, which leads to fewer companies and lower wages.
I'm surprised H-1B software engineers are getting paid less for being H-1B visa holders, essentially holding them hostage over their inability to do anything about it (unless they want to be kicked out and lose their high paying job, relative to opportunities in India). It sounds like the U.S. government could force companies to pay median wages to H-1B workers.
Actually, it might be better to put a "tariff" on employers, where the employee must be paid a median wage, and the company must pay the government money for using H-1B workers. That way the company pays more to employ H-1B visa holders, and they'll only do so if they need the labor (not just to skimp on wages).
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one of those sources to call out about wages, I think 189 above. {California Attorney General’s former senior advisor on immigration and labor}
https://www.epi.org/publication/h-1b-visas-and-prevailing-wage-levels/ (https://www.epi.org/publication/h-1b-visas-and-prevailing-wage-levels/)
I read this as criticizing the impact on wage and job mobility.
https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=4010152 (https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=4010152)
The Economic Policy Institute link has a good summary quote:
"Major U.S. firms use the H-1B program to pay low wages. Among the top 30 H-1B employers are major U.S. firms including Amazon, Microsoft, Walmart, Google, Apple, and Facebook. All of them take advantage of program rules in order to legally pay many of their H-1B workers below the local median wage for the jobs they fill."
The SSRN research paper talks of concentration lowering wages. The lottery system awards more H-1B visas to companies that file more applications, which leads to fewer companies and lower wages.
I'm surprised H-1B software engineers are getting paid less for being H-1B visa holders, essentially holding them hostage over their inability to do anything about it (unless they want to be kicked out and lose their high paying job, relative to opportunities in India). It sounds like the U.S. government could force companies to pay median wages to H-1B workers.
Actually, it might be better to put a "tariff" on employers, where the employee must be paid a median wage, and the company must pay the government money for using H-1B workers. That way the company pays more to employ H-1B visa holders, and they'll only do so if they need the labor (not just to skimp on wages).
Thinking from the visa holder's perspective, the issue isn't whether they would get more as a citizen or green card holder. The issue is what they would get paid in their home country. I couldn't find a study about it, but there is a lot of anecdotal, as well as (likely leaning positive) information by companies brokering h1b's.
I did find a 2017 blog post titled: H1B Visa Abuse: What Do Software Engineers Earn in India and Pakistan? (http://www.pakalumni.com/profiles/blogs/h1b-visa-abuse-what-do-software-engineers-earn-in-india-and-pakis#:~:text=The%20average%20salary%20of%20a%20software%20engineer,($6%2C875)%20and%20Pakistan%20($4%2C770)%2C%20according%20to%20Glassdoor.) that said that software engineers earn about 20x their Indian salary in the US, referencing Glassdoor. ($110k vs. $6,875) A good deal of this will be eaten up in higher cost of living, but it's still a different world.
Making H1B's more costly isn't going to equalize opportunity for H1B holders; it's going to eliminate that opportunity.
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^ Precisely. Migrant talent comes in, finds a new opportunity and a new life, earns much more than they could back home, and their children - the second generation migrants who grow up with English as their first language - become the next generation's doctors and lawyers. Best way to import talent across the board.
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Best way to import talent across the board.
I don't agree with this. While it has been the common way the US has integrated immigrants, there is nothing keeping the US from just allowing skilled labor to immigrate. If you look at immigration policies of many countries around medical skills, they are welcomed in immediately, with no second-tier status. This is because they are in short supply, and obviously needed. Countries are competing for them, on wages.
If we deem other skills as needed and strategic, we could be as open for them, too.
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I disagree with Vivek and Elon on the policies they want to bring forth, but I too have always wondered why most Americans look up to the prom queens and jocks of the world. They would rather their kids be athletic and popular in school than end up as nerds. They sign their kids up for sports that take up 20 hours a week and cost $XX,XXX a year, instead of saving that money for college or spending it on a tutor. Many kids who compete at the elite level in sports are homeschooled. And the homeschooling they do receive just covers the academic basics so they can dedicate 6-8 hours a day to their sport. What are the chances that any kid will be able to make a living as an athlete? Almost none. The median professional athlete barely scrapes by, and is riddled with injuries. Whereas the median professional in any nerdy field makes a very comfortable living. I don't think parents should push their kids into careers they have no interest in, of course. But why do both parents and kids care so much about athleticism and popularity when most of it is fleeting?
It's rare that I see this much wild conjecture, sweeping generalizations, assumptions and piles of straw men in a single post!
Do you have a source for.... any of this?
Yes. Elite gymnastics requires 20-30 hours of training per week, according to the official USA Gymnastics organization.
Source: https://usagym.org/men/pathways/usag-elite-track/#:~:text=The%20focus%20of%20the%20Elite,20%20%E2%80%93%2030%20hours%20per%20week
Simone Biles' gym has its own school for athletes with 4 hours of instruction a day, including lunch. It has 2 teachers total for its middle and high school program, and offers no AP classes. But I'm sure this is as good as it gets as far as homeschooling full-time athletes goes. Source: https://www.academyatwcc.com/classes/7-12-lit-ss-sci-math
Parents spend $10k-20k per year on a kid who plays hockey. Source: https://thehockeythinktank.com/the-costs-of-aaa-hockey/
Canadian boys who play hockey each have a 0.025% chance of getting drafted into the NHL. Source: https://www.hockeycanada.ca/en-ca/news/2003-gn-001-en
A ballet education costs $120,000 in 2015 dollars, or around $158,800 in today's dollars. Ballet students train around 20 hours a week, 6 out of 7 days.
Sources: https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/high-price-of-ballet-diversity-misty-copeland/
https://cpyb.org/what-is-a-pre-professional-dancer/#:~:text=Pre%2Dprofessional%20dancers%20dedicate%20several%20hours%20a%20day%2C%20often%20six%20days%20a%20week%2C%20to%20rigorous%20training%20that
https://balletscoop.com/2011/08/03/is-my-class-schedule-pre-professional/
Meanwhile, starting ballerinas earn $20k-60k a year, and that $60k is probably in an expensive city. Source: https://danceivy.com/blogs/news/ballerina-salary-range-beyond-the-stage
Yet so many people want to be professional ballerinas that there are about 100 applicants per job opening. Source: https://www.balletscout.info/blogs/navigating-ballet-auditions-and-jobs-in-an-evolving-competitive-job-market-none/#:~:text=A%20Highly%20Competitive%20Field&text=This%20is%20especially%20true%20for,for%20a%20handful%20of%20positions.
Oh, and dancers retire from their professional careers around age 38. Source: https://datapointesguide.com/generalretirement
The age retirement age for the NBA, NFL, NHL, etc. is much younger too, with the average NFL career being around 3 years long.
Ok sure, and...? Expensive and intense athletics exists. No surprise? Does everyone do this? Do even 1% of kids do this?
My issues was with:
"most Americans look up to the prom queens and jocks of the world."
[citation needed]
"They sign their kids up for sports that take up 20 hours a week "
Who are "they"? I know a few dozen parents, the most extreme do 3 hrs/week of athletics.
"But why do both parents and kids care so much about athleticism and popularity"
Who does? Most, all? 5%? Based on what?
How do you know most parents look up to athletes and/or "popular" people? What is this based on? Are you sure there isn't at least an equal number of parents/kids who (quietly) strive to do well in STEM fields, get into MIT, Stanford etc? Who look up to titans in tech industry, programmers at Google with $250k starting salaries, people who make an app in they 20s and sell it for a gazillion dollars? Nobody looks up to this? Is there a survey that shows a majority of parents would be disappointed if their children become doctors, lawyers or engineers, rather than trying to playing professional basketball? I'm sure some/a few do, but can you tell me how many parents are working on getting their kids to become pros in the NBA, NFL etc?
And pretty misleading to talk about "kids", then cite numbers for people who work to become professional ballet dancers. (and per your link it's "only" 10-15 hr/week up to age 15..). That's not some kids doing afterschool activities, that' the most extreme of the extreme. How many kids are we talking about who do that?
Quick google tells me there are 6,363 students at ballet schools in the US. If we just assume that 1% of all who try to go to ballet school actually do (no idea what actual number is), that means 636,300 kids do this intense 12-20 hr/week regimen. Out of 73,6 M kids in the US, that means 0.865%. Sorry, i won't accept extrapolating from <1% to say that "parents" sign their kids up for 20 hrs a week, as if that's in any way the norm!
And by the way, many surveys of kids about what they want to do when they grow up is topped by things like "youtuber/influencer" and "esports". Hardly the realm of (traditional) athletics!
I know most American kids look up to the prom queens and jocks because I was a kid once. And I could easily observe who most people admired, looked up to, and wanted to befriend. Young people aspiring to be influencers is also part of the problem. Many influencing careers (the ones who actually manage to make a living) end up turning into OnlyFans careers. Nothing wrong with that, but I sure wouldn't want it for my kids.
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^ Precisely. Migrant talent comes in, finds a new opportunity and a new life, earns much more than they could back home, and their children - the second generation migrants who grow up with English as their first language - become the next generation's doctors and lawyers. Best way to import talent across the board.
The goal of H-1B visas isn't to import talent, but rather to fill a gap in the U.S. labor force. Because employers can pay less for H-1B visa holders, they can prefer H-1B visa holders over Americans for the same job. Making the salary equal to the median - plus a cost - would ensure employers have the right incentive. They would hire Americans first, and if they need people badly, they'll rely on H-1B workers.
As to talent, the top programmers in India are better than the average software engineer in the U.S. Software engineer productivity varies dramatically. Employers may choose top software engineers from India because of their added productivity, even if average American programmers are available. This part somewhat goes against the idea of H-1B visas, but I'm in favor of it when there's a big skill difference.
The problem with the current program is when average American programmers don't have jobs because it is cheaper to hire average programmers through the H-1B program. That's why I think median salary plus a payment to the government would help align the incentive for H-1B visas.
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one of those sources to call out about wages, I think 189 above. {California Attorney General’s former senior advisor on immigration and labor}
https://www.epi.org/publication/h-1b-visas-and-prevailing-wage-levels/ (https://www.epi.org/publication/h-1b-visas-and-prevailing-wage-levels/)
I read this as criticizing the impact on wage and job mobility.
https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=4010152 (https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=4010152)
The Economic Policy Institute link has a good summary quote:
"Major U.S. firms use the H-1B program to pay low wages. Among the top 30 H-1B employers are major U.S. firms including Amazon, Microsoft, Walmart, Google, Apple, and Facebook. All of them take advantage of program rules in order to legally pay many of their H-1B workers below the local median wage for the jobs they fill."
The SSRN research paper talks of concentration lowering wages. The lottery system awards more H-1B visas to companies that file more applications, which leads to fewer companies and lower wages.
I'm surprised H-1B software engineers are getting paid less for being H-1B visa holders, essentially holding them hostage over their inability to do anything about it (unless they want to be kicked out and lose their high paying job, relative to opportunities in India). It sounds like the U.S. government could force companies to pay median wages to H-1B workers.
Actually, it might be better to put a "tariff" on employers, where the employee must be paid a median wage, and the company must pay the government money for using H-1B workers. That way the company pays more to employ H-1B visa holders, and they'll only do so if they need the labor (not just to skimp on wages).
Thinking from the visa holder's perspective, the issue isn't whether they would get more as a citizen or green card holder. The issue is what they would get paid in their home country. I couldn't find a study about it, but there is a lot of anecdotal, as well as (likely leaning positive) information by companies brokering h1b's.
I did find a 2017 blog post titled: H1B Visa Abuse: What Do Software Engineers Earn in India and Pakistan? (http://www.pakalumni.com/profiles/blogs/h1b-visa-abuse-what-do-software-engineers-earn-in-india-and-pakis#:~:text=The%20average%20salary%20of%20a%20software%20engineer,($6%2C875)%20and%20Pakistan%20($4%2C770)%2C%20according%20to%20Glassdoor.) that said that software engineers earn about 20x their Indian salary in the US, referencing Glassdoor. ($110k vs. $6,875) A good deal of this will be eaten up in higher cost of living, but it's still a different world.
Making H1B's more costly isn't going to equalize opportunity for H1B holders; it's going to eliminate that opportunity.
The H-1B visa program is to benefit the United States, not help out people around the world. In cases where not enough Americans are available, H-1B visas can fill the gap. But it is being abused to hire cheaper software engineers, rather than to hire American software engineers of the same ability.
I claim top software engineers are far more productive, and worth hiring despite the restrictions. Actually, once a top software engineer is working in the U.S., they could probably get paid better than median wages by shifting jobs. The tariff/payment to the government aligns incentives: companies prefer American workers, but are willing to hire H-1B workers if the need is great enough.
If we disagree about the intent of H-1B visas, here's my source:
"The intent of the H-1B provisions is to help employers who cannot otherwise obtain needed business skills and abilities from the U.S. workforce by authorizing the temporary employment of qualified individuals who are not otherwise authorized to work in the United States."
https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/immigration/h1b
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The H-1B visa program is to benefit the United States, not help out people around the world.
Yes, of course it is. It is not charity. Neither is it rapacious to the H1-B holder, although there is a risk of undue influence by the employer, if said employer was acting unethically. Economically, they are generally a benefit to the recipient vs. salary prospects in their native country.
I was specifically addressing the point prior to my post, focused more on the recipient than the employer.
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The H-1B visa program is to benefit the United States, not help out people around the world.
Yes, of course it is. It is not charity. Neither is it rapacious to the H1-B holder, although there is a risk of undue influence by the employer, if said employer was acting unethically. Economically, they are generally a benefit to the recipient vs. salary prospects in their native country.
I was specifically addressing the point prior to my post, focused more on the recipient than the employer.
I think the point I was trying to make is that in the 21st century, migration programs should be tailored to help 1) the industry's interests (importing the best talent available) and 2) help out the recipient - rather than being framed as just helping or protecting existing workers in the country. It's not to be a charity, but neither is it meant to protect American jobs.
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The H-1B visa program is to benefit the United States, not help out people around the world.
Yes, of course it is. It is not charity. Neither is it rapacious to the H1-B holder, although there is a risk of undue influence by the employer, if said employer was acting unethically. Economically, they are generally a benefit to the recipient vs. salary prospects in their native country.
I was specifically addressing the point prior to my post, focused more on the recipient than the employer.
I think the point I was trying to make is that in the 21st century, migration programs should be tailored to help 1) the industry's interests (importing the best talent available) and 2) help out the recipient - rather than being framed as just helping or protecting existing workers in the country. It's not to be a charity, but neither is it meant to protect American jobs.
I quoted the Department of Labor to reeshau, and my reading is that H-1Bs are supposed to protect American jobs. Only missing "skills and abilities from the U.S. workforce" qualify:
"The intent of the H-1B provisions is to help employers who cannot otherwise obtain needed business skills and abilities from the U.S. workforce by authorizing the temporary employment of qualified individuals who are not otherwise authorized to work in the United States."
https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/immigration/h1b
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The H-1B visa program is to benefit the United States, not help out people around the world.
Yes, of course it is. It is not charity. Neither is it rapacious to the H1-B holder, although there is a risk of undue influence by the employer, if said employer was acting unethically. Economically, they are generally a benefit to the recipient vs. salary prospects in their native country.
I was specifically addressing the point prior to my post, focused more on the recipient than the employer.
I think the point I was trying to make is that in the 21st century, migration programs should be tailored to help 1) the industry's interests (importing the best talent available) and 2) help out the recipient - rather than being framed as just helping or protecting existing workers in the country. It's not to be a charity, but neither is it meant to protect American jobs.
MAGA really digs that attitude:
Steve Bannon condemns Elon Musk as ‘racist’ and ‘truly evil’
Ex-Trump adviser denounces tech CEO’s embrace of some forms of immigration and vows to ‘take this guy down’
Chris Michael
Sun 12 Jan 2025
“This thing of the H-1B visas, it’s about the entire immigration system is gamed by the tech overlords. They use it to their advantage. The people are furious,” said Bannon, whom Trump fired from his White House position during his first administration but who later reinvented himself through his War Room podcast as one of the chief evangelists of the Maga movement.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2025/jan/12/steve-bannon-calls-elon-musk-racist
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The H-1B visa program is to benefit the United States, not help out people around the world.
Yes, of course it is. It is not charity. Neither is it rapacious to the H1-B holder, although there is a risk of undue influence by the employer, if said employer was acting unethically. Economically, they are generally a benefit to the recipient vs. salary prospects in their native country.
I was specifically addressing the point prior to my post, focused more on the recipient than the employer.
I think the point I was trying to make is that in the 21st century, migration programs should be tailored to help 1) the industry's interests (importing the best talent available) and 2) help out the recipient - rather than being framed as just helping or protecting existing workers in the country. It's not to be a charity, but neither is it meant to protect American jobs.
MAGA really digs that attitude:
Steve Bannon condemns Elon Musk as ‘racist’ and ‘truly evil’
Ex-Trump adviser denounces tech CEO’s embrace of some forms of immigration and vows to ‘take this guy down’
Chris Michael
Sun 12 Jan 2025
“This thing of the H-1B visas, it’s about the entire immigration system is gamed by the tech overlords. They use it to their advantage. The people are furious,” said Bannon, whom Trump fired from his White House position during his first administration but who later reinvented himself through his War Room podcast as one of the chief evangelists of the Maga movement.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2025/jan/12/steve-bannon-calls-elon-musk-racist
Wow. When you're called racist by the guy who ran a news site with a category "Black crime"... you might be a very racists.
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I would consider that anything that pisses off MAGA types is likely to be good policy. Making them all unemployed would be good policy.
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Seth Meyers on the Musk MAGA war - it's funny and the best part is Bannon talking about the oligarchs (6:12 - 6:58).
Steve Bannon actually knows his shit and is well aware that oligarchs are easy targets.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Za0E2uPauwc
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Some context to what Steve Bannon is doing (and has been waiting for to do).
A primer to oligarchy:
Why Oligarchy Falls (And How to Speed It Up)
Legendary Lore
What happens in the moments before power changes hands? History shows us fascinating patterns that keep repeating, from ancient Greece to modern times. While Aristotle might seem like just another philosopher from the past, his deep study of political systems revealed something curious about how power works - and fails.
This investigation goes beyond politics. It's about understanding the hidden mechanisms that shape our world, the subtle signs that precede major changes, and the surprising way that strength can become weakness. We'll explore why the most dramatic revolutions often produce the worst outcomes, and how real, lasting change tends to happen when almost no one is watching.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UlbJtgYEM1U
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I would consider that anything that pisses off MAGA types is likely to be good policy. Making them all unemployed would be good policy.
So they'll have even more time on their hands to self-radicalize on YouTube and form armed mobs?
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I so appreciate the content you post, @PeteD01
That was the longest AI narrated video I ever watched lol.
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I would consider that anything that pisses off MAGA types is likely to be good policy. Making them all unemployed would be good policy.
So they'll have even more time on their hands to self-radicalize on YouTube and form armed mobs?
Ideally there is something community sector related that could be done, like charity work in exchange for government benefits. Something positive and constructive.
Much better than the alternative, which is not so much armed mobs - I doubt there's that level of organisation - I think it would be opioids and the like.
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There were many great comments on that video but one I liked a lot said
Almost all the incremental changes have been going *toward* Oligarchy, not away from it. Create a website with forums for your local irl neighborhood; talk crime watch, schooling, carpooling, etc. Create community to oppose their atomization of society.
Makes me think about how we can and should work with open source versions of LLMs and other AI, create our own networks/forums/websites and IRL meetings.
The “atomization of society” really stood out to me. And it’s the aggregators who win.
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I would consider that anything that pisses off MAGA types is likely to be good policy. Making them all unemployed would be good policy.
So they'll have even more time on their hands to self-radicalize on YouTube and form armed mobs?
Ideally there is something community sector related that could be done, like charity work in exchange for government benefits. Something positive and constructive.
Much better than the alternative, which is not so much armed mobs - I doubt there's that level of organisation - I think it would be opioids and the like.
Ha. There are already plenty of armed mobs calling themselves "militias" and "sovereign citizens", along with the Proud Boys etc right wing mobs that broke into the Capitol on January 6th. So yeah, I consider armed mobs to be more likely than something positive and constructive.
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There were many great comments on that video but one I liked a lot said
Almost all the incremental changes have been going *toward* Oligarchy, not away from it. Create a website with forums for your local irl neighborhood; talk crime watch, schooling, carpooling, etc. Create community to oppose their atomization of society.
Makes me think about how we can and should work with open source versions of LLMs and other AI, create our own networks/forums/websites and IRL meetings.
The “atomization of society” really stood out to me. And it’s the aggregators who win.
I think it's clear the AIs will be owned and operated by the oligarchs. The only way to resist their control over your mind is to resort back to old-school information sources like word of mouth received in physically meeting communities and a good library of old paper books. We should also seek out opportunities to pay boots-on-the-ground local journalists who broadcast the same, accurate, information to everyone.
The next internet forum (e.g. bluesky.social) is not going to fix this, and neither is the next AI. We should know that. It's funny how our first instinct is to rush right back into the root source of so many of our democracy's problems, rather than rejecting the whole AI-fed social media substitute-for-journalism and substitute-for-social-life format that atomized and misled us in the first place.
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I agree that the next federated social media forum is not going to help. But what we’ve seen so far is that tools are used for good and bad and they don’t go away, barring a cataclysm. I think people are both underestimating and overestimating AI. But we cannot deny the democratization of tools to the little people. This is why individuals have more power now than they’ve ever had in the history of modern civilization.
I also keep on throwing out this theme that nobody really bites on which is that money is not as valuable anymore. Both in a literal sense (quantitative easing) and in terms of what is, for all intents and purposes, UBI: the access to technology, abundant food, and fairly universal infrastructure. This is why oligarchs need to make themselves so visible and tangled in all our affairs. They need to constantly remind us of their power.
They also need to drum up jingoism and patriotism and xenophobia and other divisive concepts because they do not belong to single countries. They are global oligarchs.
And at the other end of the society, it’s why people can more comfortably live on the street or in an RV: they can now have solar power, powerful miniature computers, media, Internet service, etc. You might say that’s insensitive to say, but where I live, I regularly see people in homeless encampments with laptops, high-powered lights, solar panels, antennas, you name it. (Now a number of these people are also addicted to fentanyl and that’s another story.)
For years I’ve been saying that after occupy Wall Street, we were seeing a rise of nomadism. And you know you saw it among wealthy and middle class people as much as you saw it among the poor.
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Just released:
DOGE Delusions: A Real-World Plan to Reject Elon Musk and Vivek Ramaswamy's Misguided Agenda, Crack Down on Corporate Handouts, Tax the Rich, and Invest for the Future.
January 15, 2025
This study was written by Public Citizen President Robert Weissman, with input and editing from Rick Claypool, Susan Harley, Bill Hartung, Eagan Kemp, Steve Knievel, Peter Maybarduk and Alan Zibel.
Public Citizen is a national non-profit organization with more than 500,000 members and supporters. We represent consumer interests through lobbying, litigation, administrative advocacy, research, and public education on a broad range of issues including consumer rights in the marketplace, product safety, financial regulation, worker safety, safe and affordable health care, campaign finance reform and government ethics, fair trade, climate change, and corporate and government accountability.
What Real Efficiency Looks Like
This report identifies a series of policy interventions to save Americans hundreds of billions of dollars every year and to raise hundreds of billions more, every year:
•
Measures to reduce prescription drug prices can save $200 billion annually.
•
Ending privatized Medicare can save $100 billion annually, while improving quality of care.
•
Modest reductions to the Pentagon budget would save $100 billion every year; while more aggressive, evidence-based cuts could save $200 billion annually.
•
Ending tax subsidies and handouts to oil and gas corporations would save about $20 billion annually.
•
Fair taxes on the rich and corporations could raise $500 billion annually, or potentially much more, as compared with the baseline of the expected extension of the Trump tax cuts.
https://www.citizen.org/wp-content/uploads/doge-efficiency-public-citizen-report-2025.pdf
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^ Thanks for this, PeteD01. Public Citizen was founded by Ralph Nader and has been a fantastic champion for consumers.
I expect they may be the last organization standing after the Republicans dismantle the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau.
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We should understand that in the age of mass misinformation, achieving actual results in reality doesn't matter.
Obama deported millions more illegal immigrants than Trump during most years of his administration, yet Trump won the 2020 election on a claim that Obama-Biden left the borders wide open.
Biden oversaw the fastest fall in inflation in history, and some of the fastest economic growth in history, and yet Trump beat him on economic issues.
Democrats still do not understand that Republican control over the media means that Republicans can run on the issues where they are actually weakest, and create narratives of failure around Democrats' successes. Dems are pissing in the wind if they are still trying to win votes by delivering tangible progress. What they need to do is pivot to new communication methods to counter the pro-oligarchy Fox News, X, YouTube, TikTok, and Meta.
-
Just released:
DOGE Delusions: A Real-World Plan to Reject Elon Musk and Vivek Ramaswamy's Misguided Agenda, Crack Down on Corporate Handouts, Tax the Rich, and Invest for the Future.
January 15, 2025
This study was written by Public Citizen President Robert Weissman, with input and editing from Rick Claypool, Susan Harley, Bill Hartung, Eagan Kemp, Steve Knievel, Peter Maybarduk and Alan Zibel.
What Real Efficiency Looks Like
This report identifies a series of policy interventions to save Americans hundreds of billions of dollars every year and to raise hundreds of billions more, every year:
•
Measures to reduce prescription drug prices can save $200 billion annually.
•
Ending privatized Medicare can save $100 billion annually, while improving quality of care.
•
Modest reductions to the Pentagon budget would save $100 billion every year; while more aggressive, evidence-based cuts could save $200 billion annually.
•
Ending tax subsidies and handouts to oil and gas corporations would save about $20 billion annually.
•
Fair taxes on the rich and corporations could raise $500 billion annually, or potentially much more, as compared with the baseline of the expected extension of the Trump tax cuts.
FWIW, here’s an alternative argument from Marc Andreessen, the tech investor and former huge Dem supporter going back to Clinton/Gore, Obama, and Hillary-for-President, who soured big time on Biden and is now a DOGE Insider with Musk.
Andreessen describes DOGE plans to reduce the size of government, and power tech achievement—pretty much without congress. They hope to revive the techno-centric policies of Clinton and Gore. He provides interesting insight too on how Gore’s work in congress led to the internet as we now know it.
https://youtu.be/YqeI7iViRmE
I throw this out there because I believe it’s important to have a solid understanding of the perspectives of those you might disagree with. (I get antsy when I feel I’m drinking the same flavor Kool-Aid for too long. YMMV.)
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We should understand that in the age of mass misinformation, achieving actual results in reality doesn't matter.
Obama deported millions more illegal immigrants than Trump during most years of his administration, yet Trump won the 2020 election on a claim that Obama-Biden left the borders wide open.
Biden oversaw the fastest fall in inflation in history, and some of the fastest economic growth in history, and yet Trump beat him on economic issues.
Democrats still do not understand that Republican control over the media means that Republicans can run on the issues where they are actually weakest, and create narratives of failure around Democrats' successes. Dems are pissing in the wind if they are still trying to win votes by delivering tangible progress. What they need to do is pivot to new communication methods to counter the pro-oligarchy Fox News, X, YouTube, TikTok, and Meta.
Yea yes yes this is what I’ve been saying. So well put!!!
Well, actually… Lol both sides have always had this argument that one party controls the media. So I actually disagree with you that the diversity of citizen led outlets is bad. In my opinion, that part is really good. The bad part is the centralized control and other tricks to create narratives at massive scale.
When the Internet first started, we had the excitement of individuals creating webpages and forum such as this one. But the walled garden concept took off and social media was born. The social aspect is good. The control by oligarchs is bad, an ancient tactic.
I see a future where we go back to the diversity of websites as people become more and more disenchanted with centralized social media (which in some countries, are controlled by the government).
The creation of HTML was our modern day printing press. Governments and the rich have been trying to control it ever since. And we consistently fall for their tricks instead of realizing the power that we now have with the tools available to us.
There are a number of makers who have great guidance for how to run your own mail servers, web servers, LLMs, etc. If we lose these abilities then I will really be concerned.
-
Just released:
DOGE Delusions: A Real-World Plan to Reject Elon Musk and Vivek Ramaswamy's Misguided Agenda, Crack Down on Corporate Handouts, Tax the Rich, and Invest for the Future.
January 15, 2025
This study was written by Public Citizen President Robert Weissman, with input and editing from Rick Claypool, Susan Harley, Bill Hartung, Eagan Kemp, Steve Knievel, Peter Maybarduk and Alan Zibel.
What Real Efficiency Looks Like
This report identifies a series of policy interventions to save Americans hundreds of billions of dollars every year and to raise hundreds of billions more, every year:
•
Measures to reduce prescription drug prices can save $200 billion annually.
•
Ending privatized Medicare can save $100 billion annually, while improving quality of care.
•
Modest reductions to the Pentagon budget would save $100 billion every year; while more aggressive, evidence-based cuts could save $200 billion annually.
•
Ending tax subsidies and handouts to oil and gas corporations would save about $20 billion annually.
•
Fair taxes on the rich and corporations could raise $500 billion annually, or potentially much more, as compared with the baseline of the expected extension of the Trump tax cuts.
FWIW, here’s an alternative argument from Marc Andreessen, the tech investor and former huge Dem supporter going back to Clinton/Gore, Obama, and Hillary-for-President, who soured big time on Biden and is now a DOGE Insider with Musk.
Andreessen describes DOGE plans to reduce the size of government, and power tech achievement—pretty much without congress. They hope to revive the techno-centric policies of Clinton and Gore. He provides interesting insight too on how Gore’s work in congress led to the internet as we now know it.
https://youtu.be/YqeI7iViRmE
I throw this out there because I believe it’s important to have a solid understanding of the perspectives of those you might disagree with. (I get antsy when I feel I’m drinking the same flavor Kool-Aid for too long. YMMV.)
The video you are linking to is about the cringiest things I've tried to watch recently - fortunately, there is a transcript so one doesn't have suffer through watching this (scroll down to below the video and there it is):
https://www.hoover.org/research/marc-andreessen-its-morning-again-america?utm_source=youtube&utm_medium=description&utm_campaign=uk_youtube
The irony is that this inanity, coming from a guy who is so full of it combined with the insufferable obsequiousness and brown nosing of the interviewer that one gets worried if the diaper is going to hold, is hosted by the Hoover Institute which is named after the Great Depression president Herbert Hoover, who plunged the US into economic disaster with the help of his fellow oligarchs.
There is, however, a short section where Andreessen is quoting his essay "Techno Optimist Manifesto" in which he invokes esthetic sentiment in support of his project.
It's probably not surprising that there is nothing original about it as he is basically paraphrasing the "Manifesto of Futurism" by Filippo Tommaso Marinetti.
The Italian futurists were important culture warriors in the times preceding Mussolini's Italian fascism with which they aligned themselves.
The rest of the essay is essentially a clumsy defense of the position that a merger of oligarchic economic power and state power is what the country needs - fascism in a nutshell of course.
But see for yourself:
Marc Andreessen
Techno Optimist Manifesto
>> Peter Robinson: Mark, would you close our conversation by reading this excerpt from your essay, the Techno Optimist Manifesto?
>> Marc Andreessen: Love to. We believe in the romance of technology, of industry. The romance. The eros of the train, the car, the electric light, the skyscraper, the microchip, the neural network, the rocket, the split atom.
We believe in adventure. Undertaking the hero's journey, rebelling against the status quo, mapping uncharted territory, conquering dragons, and bringing home the spoils for our community. We believe that we have been and will always be the masters of technology, not mastered by technology. This is really key point today.
Victim mentality is a curse in every domain of life, including in our relationship with technology, both unnecessary and self-defeating. We are not victims, we are conquerors. We believe America and her allies should be strong and not weak. Economic, cultural, and military strength flow from technological strength. A technologically strong America is a force for good in a dangerous world.
We believe in greatness.
Marinetti said it way better, in an esthetic sense of course - but that's how it goes, farce and all:
Filippo Tommaso Marinetti
MANIFESTO OF FUTURISM
1. We want to sing the love of danger, the habit of energy and rashness.
2. The essential elements of our poetry will be courage, audacity and revolt.
3. Literature has up to now magnified pensive immobility, ecstasy and slumber. We want to exalt movements of aggression, feverish sleeplessness, the double march, the perilous leap, the slap and the blow with the fist.
4. We declare that the splendor of the world has been enriched by a new beauty: the beauty of speed. A racing automobile with its bonnet adorned with great tubes like serpents with explosive breath ... a roaring motor car which seems to run on machine-gun fire, is more beautiful than the Victory of Samothrace.
5. We want to sing the man at the wheel, the ideal axis of which crosses
the earth, itself hurled along its orbit.
6. The poet must spend himself with warmth, glamour and prodigality to increase the enthusiastic fervor of the primordial elements.
7. Beauty exists only in struggle. There is no masterpiece that has not an aggressive character. Poetry must be a violent assault on the forces of the unknown, to force them to bow before man.
8. We are on the extreme promontory of the centuries! What is the use of looking behind at the moment when we must open the mysterious shutters of the impossible? Time and Space died yesterday. We are already living in the absolute, since we have already created eternal, omnipresent speed.
9. We want to glorify war - the only cure for the world - militarism, patriotism, the destructive gesture of the anarchists, the beautiful ideas which kill, and contempt for woman.
10. We want to demolish museums and libraries, fight morality, feminism and all opportunist and utilitarian cowardice.
11. We will sing of the great crowds agitated by work, pleasure and revolt;the multi colored and polyphonic surf of revolutions in modern capitals: the nocturnal vibration of the arsenals and the workshops beneath their violent electric moons: the gluttonous railway stations devouring smoking serpents; factories suspended from the clouds by the thread of their smoke; bridges with the leap of gymnasts flung across the diabolic cutlery of sunny rivers: adventurous steamers sniffing the horizon; great-breasted locomotives, puffing on the rails like enormous steel horses with long tubes for bridle, and the gliding flight of aeroplanes whose propeller sounds like the flapping of a flag and the applause of enthusiastic crowds.
https://www.societyforasianart.org/sites/default/files/manifesto_futurista.pdf
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Mr. Andreesen needs to go back to college and take some writing courses. And maybe some study some history and social science theory. Writing that poor/uninformed would have gotten a D in any of the classes I took going all the way back to high school.
Go see Babygirl if you want a creative/thought-provoking take on any of the stuff he is talking about.
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You didn’t hear a lot of criticism from Dems when Clinton and Gore were Big Tech’s biggest cheerleaders (Gore really did make the Internet what it is today!) and the Silicon Valley crowd were spending billions on Obama and Hillary. Now the liberal sarcasm against tech is so thick you can cut it with a knife…and their obedient media lackeys are ready to have them tarred and feathered. (“Hey assholes: You wonder why you’re losing…? THANK YOU JOE!)
There’s a dumb line of reasoning out there these days too about “legislative capture”, that somehow BIG BAD BUSINESS (to borrow a line from the hippies) pays off our elected officials to do their bidding. Bullshit. The D and R party leaders are the ones who have captured the legislature and put it up for grabs by the highest bidder. Whenever you see a party line vote—which is almost ALL THE TIME—you know it’s not individual businesses paying off individual senators and house reps, it’s their bosses cracking the whip and scaring them about being primaried.
For losing a slam dunk election to Trump and alienating the most important business block in American history THAT THEY OWNED FOR THREE DECADES, the current crop of Dems should be shot.
I’ve voted D my whole life and I’ve never been so sick over their incompetence and failures.
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You didn’t hear a lot of criticism from Dems when Clinton and Gore were Big Tech’s biggest cheerleaders (Gore really did make the Internet what it is today!) and the Silicon Valley crowd were spending billions on Obama and Hillary.
To be fair, the Tech sector's size and influence has grown quite dramatically in the near 20 years since Obama first ran, or even the 10 years since Hillary did. There are many issues today that need to be addressed that weren't a blip on the radar at the time. I do understand your point, however.
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You didn’t hear a lot of criticism from Dems when Clinton and Gore were Big Tech’s biggest cheerleaders (Gore really did make the Internet what it is today!) and the Silicon Valley crowd were spending billions on Obama and Hillary.
To be fair, the Tech sector's size and influence has grown quite dramatically in the near 20 years since Obama first ran, or even the 10 years since Hillary did. There are many issues today that need to be addressed that weren't a blip on the radar at the time. I do understand your point, however.
I am frustrated by what I consider the incompetence of the Dems because I have been a supporter for so long but yeah, I do see nuance here too.
I’m also scratching my head about the flip-flop between the parties on free speech. Hear much about “Net Neutrality” these days? Is it Animal Farm time?
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I’m also scratching my head about the flip-flop between the parties on free speech. Hear much about “Net Neutrality” these days? Is it Animal Farm time?
I think it's Nineteen Eighty Four time.
Big tech has kissed the ring for whichever party has been in control of government. That essentially makes them tools for governments, or employees of politicians. Alphabet, Meta, Apple, and X have essentially replaced unruly journalists who would not tow the party line with a new information source that is subservient to politicians. Social media is thus, essentially, a part of the government. Our screens explain the ever-changing truth to us, and it is taboo to disbelieve.
TikTok will be banned or fire-sold this weekend as a demonstration of the politicians' wrath, and because it was unallowable for its owners to be out of retaliatory reach. Mark Zuckerberg was quick to fall in line before becoming a target of the ruling party, but he cut it close. As America heads in a more Russian direction, Zuck would be wise to avoid tall buildings or air travel.
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But why would Zuck be at risk when his platform literally accepted payment in Rubles for US political election advertisements?
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But why would Zuck be at risk when his platform literally accepted payment in Rubles for US political election advertisements?
https://fortune.com/2025/01/17/mark-zuckerberg-blaming-meta-sheryl-sandberg-inclusivity-initiative/ (https://fortune.com/2025/01/17/mark-zuckerberg-blaming-meta-sheryl-sandberg-inclusivity-initiative/)
also having fact checkers in the first place.
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I’m also scratching my head about the flip-flop between the parties on free speech. Hear much about “Net Neutrality” these days? Is it Animal Farm time?
TikTok will be banned or fire-sold this weekend as a demonstration of the politicians' wrath, and because it was unallowable for its owners to be out of retaliatory reach. Mark Zuckerberg was quick to fall in line before becoming a target of the ruling party, but he cut it close. As America heads in a more Russian direction, Zuck would be wise to avoid tall buildings or air travel.
Wild—but some truth here!
Trump and many Dems actually have concluded the world institutions created by the US—NATO. The World Bank, etc.—haven’t worked out as planned. China circumvented it’s promises after being granted access to our markets and the West is tired of getting screwed by their cheap exports. And Russia is in the midst of a decade long temper tantrum after realizing it’s been assigned permanent pariah status by the West and personal-bitch status by China. So the wonderful world order is on tilt!
Meanwhile, with the exception of the US, the rest of the planet can’t get their economic shit together, leaving the US in the strongest position its been in since 1945.
Enter Trump LOL. Now, all those ninnies who complained about American business capturing the legislative process are realizing that all you need is a politician in control of his party to REALLY crack the whip.
Buckle up. The badboys have just inherited the earth!
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Forgot to mention Iran just lost their Empire of little dingleberries thanks to the US/Israel. LOL
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I’m also scratching my head about the flip-flop between the parties on free speech. Hear much about “Net Neutrality” these days? Is it Animal Farm time?
TikTok will be banned or fire-sold this weekend as a demonstration of the politicians' wrath, and because it was unallowable for its owners to be out of retaliatory reach. Mark Zuckerberg was quick to fall in line before becoming a target of the ruling party, but he cut it close. As America heads in a more Russian direction, Zuck would be wise to avoid tall buildings or air travel.
Wild—but some truth here!
Trump and many Dems actually have concluded the world institutions created by the US—NATO. The World Bank, etc.—haven’t worked out as planned. China circumvented it’s promises after being granted access to our markets and the West is tired of getting screwed by their cheap exports. And Russia is in the midst of a decade long temper tantrum after realizing it’s been assigned permanent pariah status by the West and personal-bitch status by China. So the wonderful world order is on tilt!
Meanwhile, with the exception of the US, the rest of the planet can’t get their economic shit together, leaving the US in the strongest position its been in since 1945.
Enter Trump LOL. Now, all those ninnies who complained about American business capturing the legislative process are realizing that all you need is a politician in control of his party to REALLY crack the whip.
Buckle up. The badboys have just inherited the earth!
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Forgot to mention Iran just lost their Empire of little dingleberries thanks to the US/Israel. LOL
What again is the point here?
I get that one can be exasperated at the condition of the world but becoming unhinged in a repeated meltdown isn’t really helpful unless one wants to feed one’s anger issues.
If you are interested in a discussion of your particular grievances, you need to work a bit on keeping your focus.
Let me explain:
Trump
world institutions
US—NATO
The World Bank
China
our markets
the West
cheap exports
Russia
temper tantrum
permanent pariah status
personal-bitch status
wonderful world order
get their economic shit together
US in the strongest position
ninnies who complained
capturing the legislative process
politician in control
REALLY crack the whip
badboys
inherited the earth
Iran
Empire of little dingleberries
This is a variation of the Gish gallop - if you are really thinking like that, I feel for you - on the other hand, a trolling effort is more likely.
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I’m also scratching my head about the flip-flop between the parties on free speech. Hear much about “Net Neutrality” these days? Is it Animal Farm time?
TikTok will be banned or fire-sold this weekend as a demonstration of the politicians' wrath, and because it was unallowable for its owners to be out of retaliatory reach. Mark Zuckerberg was quick to fall in line before becoming a target of the ruling party, but he cut it close. As America heads in a more Russian direction, Zuck would be wise to avoid tall buildings or air travel.
Well, he is actually building that bunker in Hawaii. About as far as you can get from DC without leaving the US.
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I can’t keep my conspiracies straight here, why again would Zuck be in danger from Trump when he’s toadying as fast as he can?
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I can’t keep my conspiracies straight here, why again would Zuck be in danger from Trump when he’s toadying as fast as he can?
Zuck makes a shit ton of money from analyzing massive amounts of data. Perhaps he and the other tech bro billionaires have applied their proprietary tools to history. Those of us who did Economics as an undergrad have been aware for close to a decade that we are getting close to the level of wealth inequality that finally prompted the French peasantry to start chopping heads off and even turning same into a "wholesome family activity". Does Zuck see the inflection point that several times over history has caused massive and bloody peasant uprisings? What will be America's Bastille Moment?
We still have the Superb Owl (and social media free of that dreaded 'fact checking') to look forward to but bread and circuses only worked for so long in Rome.
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More on the oligarchic thievery that is now out in the open:
Oligarchs are more visible than ever. That also makes them more vulnerable
Jan-Werner Müller
In the end, the best bet against oligarchy remains countervailing power
22 Jan 2025
It remains unusual, though, for oligarchs to grab the levers of the state themselves – unless, as with Berlusconi, entering politics appears the only means to avoid prison. Of Trump’s political appointees, 26 have fortunes that exceed $100m; 12 are billionaires. His is the richest cabinet in the nation’s history. Plus, there is the world’s wealthiest person in a largely undefined, and completely unaccountable role as promoting “government efficiency”.
That strange mixture of visibility and invisibility creates vulnerability. There are the conflicts of interests and the scandals that will result from plundering the state (though, as of now, both Democrats and the public at large simply appear resigned to kleptocracy on an unprecedented scale); Musk’s grand promises of “efficiency” might remain unfulfilled; the conspiracy theories and sheer petulance of newly Trumpist oligarchs like Mark Andreessen – whining that the Biden administration had unleashed “terrorism” on the tech industry – dents the image of the Silicon Valley geniuses always ready with a solution for humanity’s problems.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2025/jan/22/oligarchs-visible-more-vulnerable
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Nice article. I so appreciate historical context.
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Of course the history books would also comment that the modern buildup of American Supertech is largely thanks to the Democrats—envisioned and kickstarted by Clinton and Gore—with policies that survived about 20 years, through most of Obama’s administration. (The press wasn’t calling them oligarchs then LOL.)
These history books are still being written, and before believing the toothpaste salesmen in the liberal media (or their equally disgusting competitors on the right) about who the bad actors are, a little more time and thought might be useful.
Consider for a moment the proposition that American politicians and news media have sold their souls by peddling partisanship, then put all this in the context of today’s geopolitics and ask yourself what happens “over there” during the coming decade if Americans are consumed with hating each other, egged on by the bobblehead media that feeds red meat to it’s segmented lemmings.
If you’d prefer a world in which China/Russia/NK/Iran run amok for a decade while America dicks around bitching about oligarchs you just might get it.
The vile on the both left and right these days is leaving Xi and Putin laughing so hard then can barely breathe. Don’t be part of it.
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Of course the history books would also comment that the modern buildup of American Supertech is largely thanks to the Democrats—envisioned and kickstarted by Clinton and Gore—with policies that survived about 20 years, through most of Obama’s administration. (The press wasn’t calling them oligarchs then LOL.)
These history books are still being written, and before believing the toothpaste salesmen in the liberal media (or their equally disgusting competitors on the right) about who the bad actors are, a little more time and thought might be useful.
Consider for a moment the proposition that American politicians and news media have sold their souls by peddling partisanship, then put all this in the context of today’s geopolitics and ask yourself what happens “over there” during the coming decade if Americans are consumed with hating each other, egged on by the bobblehead media that feeds red meat to it’s segmented lemmings.
If you’d prefer a world in which China/Russia/NK/Iran run amok for a decade while America dicks around bitching about oligarchs you just might get it.
The vile on the both left and right these days is leaving Xi and Putin laughing so hard then can barely breathe. Don’t be part of it.
What the hell are you talking about?
The discussion is about oligarchs directly and openly grabbing government power.
This is not an event happening early in the emergence of oligarchy but late, if at all, and puts the developments on the timeline of both parties´ administrations with Reagan priming the pump.
To make that clear: Oligarchs are agnostic when it comes to parties and will happily align themselves with whoever is closest to the reins of power and is willing to do their bidding.
Oligarchs not only have no party loyalty but also do not have country loyalty.
Internally, that gives rise to the uniparty conspiracy theory which oligarchs enthusiastically support because it weakens confidence in government and instills a sense of powerlessness and fatalism into public sentiment.
That uniparty conspiracy theory obviously serves oligarchs well because it allows them to explain away their flip-flopping on party support and beholdenness to foreign interests - because if you convince people that their own country is a shithole in decline, how are they going to get excited about pandering to foreign interests originating in countries that are no better but also not worse than their own.
Next thing you know, you got a movement of people taking a shit on America and singing the praises of Putin.
As much as the uniparty conspiracy theory serves the oligarchs, it is entirely different for the middle class, because despite the responsibility centrists have for letting oligarchic power grow, the reactionary right wing policies are positively toxic to the middle class.
So yeah, the oligarchs would love us to believe the uniparty conspiracy theory but believing it is diametrically opposed to middle class interests.
Here is the link to the "uniparty" wiki page - it's so fucking stupid (paging MTG) that it's not worth spending much time on it (and Meme-Ron has done a good job as the MMM Uniparty One-Trick-Mascot; but I still recommend to look at it to see the stupidity of it for yourself)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uniparty#:~:text=Uniparty%20is%20used%20as%20a,function%20as%20a%20single%20party.
This is far more interesting and relevant:
Oligarchy Illustrated Edition
by Jeffrey A. Winters
For centuries, oligarchs were viewed as empowered by wealth, an idea muddled by elite theory early in the twentieth century. The common thread for oligarchs across history is that wealth defines them, empowers them, and inherently exposes them to threats. The existential motive of all oligarchs is wealth defense. How they respond varies with the threats they confront, including how directly involved they are in supplying the coercion underlying all property claims, and whether they act separately or collectively. These variations yield four types of oligarchy: warring, ruling, sultanistic, and civil. Oligarchy is not displaced by democracy but rather is fused with it. Moreover, the rule of law problem in many societies is a matter of taming oligarchs. Cases studied in this book include the United States, ancient Athens and Rome, Indonesia, the Philippines, Singapore, medieval Venice and Siena, mafia commissions in the United States and Italy, feuding Appalachian families, and early chiefs cum oligarchs dating from 2300 BCE.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/0521182980?ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_fed_asin_title
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Of course the history books would also comment that the modern buildup of American Supertech is largely thanks to the Democrats—envisioned and kickstarted by Clinton and Gore—with policies that survived about 20 years, through most of Obama’s administration. (The press wasn’t calling them oligarchs then LOL.)
These history books are still being written, and before believing the toothpaste salesmen in the liberal media (or their equally disgusting competitors on the right) about who the bad actors are, a little more time and thought might be useful.
Consider for a moment the proposition that American politicians and news media have sold their souls by peddling partisanship, then put all this in the context of today’s geopolitics and ask yourself what happens “over there” during the coming decade if Americans are consumed with hating each other, egged on by the bobblehead media that feeds red meat to it’s segmented lemmings.
If you’d prefer a world in which China/Russia/NK/Iran run amok for a decade while America dicks around bitching about oligarchs you just might get it.
The vile on the both left and right these days is leaving Xi and Putin laughing so hard then can barely breathe. Don’t be part of it.
What the hell are you talking about?
Try reading what those who disagree with you are writing instead of repetitively posting from the trove of your partisan faves. That’s what “the hell” I’m talking about, Peter.
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Of course the history books would also comment that the modern buildup of American Supertech is largely thanks to the Democrats—envisioned and kickstarted by Clinton and Gore—with policies that survived about 20 years, through most of Obama’s administration. (The press wasn’t calling them oligarchs then LOL.)
These history books are still being written, and before believing the toothpaste salesmen in the liberal media (or their equally disgusting competitors on the right) about who the bad actors are, a little more time and thought might be useful.
Consider for a moment the proposition that American politicians and news media have sold their souls by peddling partisanship, then put all this in the context of today’s geopolitics and ask yourself what happens “over there” during the coming decade if Americans are consumed with hating each other, egged on by the bobblehead media that feeds red meat to it’s segmented lemmings.
If you’d prefer a world in which China/Russia/NK/Iran run amok for a decade while America dicks around bitching about oligarchs you just might get it.
The vile on the both left and right these days is leaving Xi and Putin laughing so hard then can barely breathe. Don’t be part of it.
What the hell are you talking about?
The discussion is about oligarchs directly and openly grabbing government power.
This is not an event happening early in the emergence of oligarchy but late, if at all, and puts the developments on the timeline of both parties´ administrations with Reagan priming the pump.
To make that clear: Oligarchs are agnostic when it comes to parties and will happily align themselves with whoever is closest to the reins of power and is willing to do their bidding.
Oligarchs not only have no party loyalty but also do not have country loyalty.
Internally, that gives rise to the uniparty conspiracy theory which oligarchs enthusiastically support because it weakens confidence in government and instills a sense of powerlessness and fatalism into public sentiment.
That uniparty conspiracy theory obviously serves oligarchs well because it allows them to explain away their flip-flopping on party support and beholdenness to foreign interests - because if you convince people that their own country is a shithole in decline, how are they going to get excited about pandering to foreign interests originating in countries that are no better but also not worse than their own.
Next thing you know, you got a movement of people taking a shit on America and singing the praises of Putin.
As much as the uniparty conspiracy theory serves the oligarchs, it is entirely different for the middle class, because despite the responsibility centrists have for letting oligarchic power grow, the reactionary right wing policies are positively toxic to the middle class.
So yeah, the oligarchs would love us to believe the uniparty conspiracy theory but believing it is diametrically opposed to middle class interests.
Here is the link to the "uniparty" wiki page - it's so fucking stupid (paging MTG) that it's not worth spending much time on it (and Meme-Ron has done a good job as the MMM Uniparty One-Trick-Mascot; but I still recommend to look at it to see the stupidity of it for yourself)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uniparty#:~:text=Uniparty%20is%20used%20as%20a,function%20as%20a%20single%20party.
This is far more interesting and relevant:
Oligarchy Illustrated Edition
by Jeffrey A. Winters
For centuries, oligarchs were viewed as empowered by wealth, an idea muddled by elite theory early in the twentieth century. The common thread for oligarchs across history is that wealth defines them, empowers them, and inherently exposes them to threats. The existential motive of all oligarchs is wealth defense. How they respond varies with the threats they confront, including how directly involved they are in supplying the coercion underlying all property claims, and whether they act separately or collectively. These variations yield four types of oligarchy: warring, ruling, sultanistic, and civil. Oligarchy is not displaced by democracy but rather is fused with it. Moreover, the rule of law problem in many societies is a matter of taming oligarchs. Cases studied in this book include the United States, ancient Athens and Rome, Indonesia, the Philippines, Singapore, medieval Venice and Siena, mafia commissions in the United States and Italy, feuding Appalachian families, and early chiefs cum oligarchs dating from 2300 BCE.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/0521182980?ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_fed_asin_title
Try reading what those who disagree with you are writing instead of repetitively posting from the trove of your partisan faves. That’s what “the hell” I’m talking about, Peter.
You accidentally omitted most of my post - I fixed it for you.
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Here is one for those who are interested in the Musk worldview - predictably unoriginal of course. It's very rare to encounter extremist right wing speech that is not infused with this hysteria.
The perennial crisis narrative is what keeps the nervous nellies on the right in a permanent state of mild panic and in thrall to those who promise them relief from their suffering (while those are busily creating the fear that keeps the rubes on their toes).
This is related to declinism:
Declinism
Declinism has been described as "a trick of the mind" and as "an emotional strategy, something comforting to snuggle up to when the present day seems intolerably bleak."[8]
One factor in declinism is the reminiscence bump in which older people tend "to best remember events that happened to them at around the ages of 10-30."[2] As one source puts it, "[t]he vibrancy of youth, and the thrill of experiencing things for the first time, creates a 'memory bump' compared with which later life does seem a bit drab."[8] Gopnick suggests that "the idea of our decline is emotionally magnetic, because life is a long slide down, and the plateau just passed is easier to love than the one coming up." Citing the widespread love of "old songs," he writes: "The long look back is part of the long ride home. We all believe in yesterday."[4]
Another factor is the positivity effect in which "as people get older, they tend to experience fewer negative emotions, and they're more likely to remember positive things over negative things."
Both factors can lead people to experience declinism but so, contrarily, can negativity bias in which "emotionally negative events are likely to have more impact on your thoughts and behaviours than a similar, but positive, event."[2]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declinism#:~:text=Declinism%20is%20the%20belief%20that,and%20the%20future%20more%20negatively.
Elon Musk and the narratives of decadence that link all anti-democratic movements
January 20, 2025
Elon Musk’s philosophy
In France, the far-right philosopher Guillaume Faye, who inspired the identitarian movement, invented a reactionary philosophy called “archeofuturism”. It aims to combine skyrocketing technical progress and a medieval morality of heroism and hierarchies. That’s not far from how Musk answers the decadence narrative with a call to radical long-termism.
The “digital town square” that X claims to be, for instance, is a signifier of the feudal public sphere. Musk’s digital reenactment of ancient Rome’s aesthetics reflects the far-right desire for an American Caesar. Oswald Spengler’s Decline of the West, the most influential book in pre-fascist Germany, promoted the very same idea.
https://theconversation.com/elon-musk-and-the-narratives-of-decadence-that-link-all-anti-democratic-movements-247396
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Best way to import talent across the board.
I don't agree with this. While it has been the common way the US has integrated immigrants, there is nothing keeping the US from just allowing skilled labor to immigrate. If you look at immigration policies of many countries around medical skills, they are welcomed in immediately, with no second-tier status. This is because they are in short supply, and obviously needed. Countries are competing for them, on wages.
If we deem other skills as needed and strategic, we could be as open for them, too.
except, since they are visa holders , and Trump sign an xo to get rid of citizenship based on Natalism, no the children will not be citizens and it will all be about who you bribe, ally to stay in the country. My daughter's best friend was born here. But her parents while being here for decades are undocumented. They are preparing to go back. And her and her younger sibling (both in HS) will have to figure out how to survive, pay bills, etc without any parental support. They are scared. there will be hundreds of thousand of kids in the same situation. It's heartbreaking.
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I found this video compelling. A short compilation of Tesla CEO support for Nazi and Far right activists.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NjWl_RNDMSA
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My daughter's best friend was born here. But her parents while being here for decades are undocumented. They are preparing to go back. And her and her younger sibling (both in HS) will have to figure out how to survive, pay bills, etc without any parental support. They are scared. there will be hundreds of thousand of kids in the same situation. It's heartbreaking.
Can you help? Maybe at least provide a room at low/no cost until they graduate and figure out next steps? Maybe while they get through community college at least?
I know you aren't fully FI yet, but it seems to me this would be a meaningful contribution/form of resistance to the cruelty of these policies and their effects on actual people -- especially ones we know personally!
I live near a local high school with a large immigrant/refugee population. Might try to do something similar myself.
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I found this video compelling. A short compilation of Tesla CEO support for Nazi and Far right activists.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NjWl_RNDMSA
I forget when Musk was transitioned from ECO-buddy to the devil. Around 2022??
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I found this video compelling. A short compilation of Tesla CEO support for Nazi and Far right activists.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NjWl_RNDMSA
I forget when Musk was transitioned from ECO-buddy to the devil. Around 2022??
I think it coincided roughly with the time he started heavily using ketamine to treat his depression. Ketamine is linked to increased impulsivity and antisocial personality changes, and coupled with Musk's existing personality I've often wondered if this is what has pushed forward the version of him that so many people find off-putting.
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I found this video compelling. A short compilation of Tesla CEO support for Nazi and Far right activists.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NjWl_RNDMSA
I forget when Musk was transitioned from ECO-buddy to the devil. Around 2022??
I think it coincided roughly with the time he started heavily using ketamine to treat his depression. Ketamine is linked to increased impulsivity and antisocial personality changes, and coupled with Musk's existing personality I've often wondered if this is what has pushed forward the version of him that so many people find off-putting.
Another good reason why power shouldn't be concentrated in the hands of just a few people.
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I found this video compelling. A short compilation of Tesla CEO support for Nazi and Far right activists.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NjWl_RNDMSA
I forget when Musk was transitioned from ECO-buddy to the devil. Around 2022??
I think it coincided roughly with the time he started heavily using ketamine to treat his depression. Ketamine is linked to increased impulsivity and antisocial personality changes, and coupled with Musk's existing personality I've often wondered if this is what has pushed forward the version of him that so many people find off-putting.
I'd say it was (the time of) Covid. Here is an interesting substack post from Sam Harris, a former longtime friend of Elon's. Understanding this is one side of the story, I think Sam lays out a lucid and thoughtful review of his personal interactions with him.
The fact that Elon was willing to bet $1 million on the under of 35,000 cases (not deaths, cases) of Covid in the US shows a) how little $1M means to him and b) that his feelings on the topic were strong enough to cloud his knowledge of exponential growth--something he comments on regularly regarding his business and tech, more broadly.
https://samharris.substack.com/p/the-trouble-with-elon
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I suspect people taking drugs, even Ketamine, don't normally flip to Republican as a result. The states which decriminalize marijuanna are largely blue states, and those which keep it illegal are largely red states.
But back in 2020, California required lockdowns, and that pissed of Tesla CEO Elon Musk. He argued with and flouted those rules, threatening to move Tesla's H.Q. to Texas (which he did).
Biden pissed off / offended / hurt Musk deeply by deliberately excluding him from a meeting of car industry CEOs to discuss energy efficiency. The #1 EV company in the U.S. was excluded from talks that included EV. So we can thank Biden for a deliberate insult to Musk, which pushed Musk further rightward.
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^ and they say females are too emotional /s
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It is quite fascinating to watch how the media are scampering to re-envision Musk for their liberal v. right “market segments”
Musk was obviously a Dem fanboy for many years. In presidential. campaigns he supported Obama twice, Hillary, and then Biden. He openly criticized Trump’s character during the 2016 campaign.
Musk got a huge DOE loan which helped fund Tesla’s Model S etc. around 2010 and the Dems were leaning into his EV thing as big-Green and so on. Obama was all over SpaceX as a key partner to NASA and heralded Musk for pushing the private-public collaboration and commercialization of space. Musk was the first private enterprise to dock with the International Space Station. There was a big solar energy thing Musk was involved with the Dems on too—SolarCity—and Obama visited it with him. Musk often talked about the need for “sustainable” and “renewable” energy…which the Dems ate up like crazy. Musk even supported Obamacare: He was all in.
Under Trump V1.0 Musk was on some advisory councils but he dropped out in protest over Trump’s decision to leave the Paris Climate accord. So even under Trump, Musk was still leaning more left than right.
Something happened under Biden though. Biden wasn’t in love with him. I remember Biden hosted a big EV futures event and deliberately left Musk and Tesla out of it despite the lead role Tesla played in the industry. Jen Psaki rubbed salt into the wound, saying—well we invited the 3 largest employers of the UAW so figure it out! (IMO that’s an asshole move…)
During Biden, a lot of Musk’s west coast tech bros were getting pretty tough treatment that really surprised them. They went from being gods who walked among us on the left to scumbags who were encouraging teen suicide for profit..that sort of thing. And the GOP was attacking them for controlling pro-right speech on their platforms.
I understand the current discontent on the left with bigtech and Musk. But I actually think they committed a forced political error and can’t figure out how to undo it. The Dems, for whatever reason, decided to turn on tech in a really pissy way…for what?
We should all try to consider what would have happened last November if the Dems kept Silicon Valley inside the tent instead of snubbing them like pariahs.
THANK YOU JOE: https://www.newsweek.com/elon-musk-donald-trump-joe-biden-tesla-spacex-1967931
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We should all try to consider what would have happened last November if the Dems kept Silicon Valley inside the tent instead of snubbing them like pariahs.
Soooo . . . are we just openly acknowledging that billionaire tech giants control US elections now?
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We're back to the "It's the liberals' fault for them being assholes!" narrative.
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We should all try to consider what would have happened last November if the Dems kept Silicon Valley inside the tent instead of snubbing them like pariahs.
Soooo . . . are we just openly acknowledging that billionaire tech giants control US elections now?
Yeah, I don't think that's an overstatement. I think it's pretty clear that at the very least they have a huge influence.
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We're back to the "It's the liberals' fault for them being assholes!" narrative.
Already???
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We should all try to consider what would have happened last November if the Dems kept Silicon Valley inside the tent instead of snubbing them like pariahs.
Soooo . . . are we just openly acknowledging that billionaire tech giants control US elections now?
Yeah, I don't think that's an overstatement. I think it's pretty clear that at the very least they have a huge influence.
They do if one lets them - fortunately, there are signs that the love affair between Democrats and billionaires with oligarchic ambitions might be ending.
The idea that billionaires of Musk´s oligarchic mold are flipping back and forth being Democrats and Republicans is nonsense because they are neither.
They opportunistically support and manipulate those that act most in their interest and that may be Democrats today and Republicans tomorrow. That's what sociopathy in action looks like.
The single-minded pursuit of their self interest is also their achilles heel of the oligarchs as it puts them squarely at odds with the public interest, but also at odds with other billionaires/oligarchs and political forces.
Freezing the oligarchs out of the political process is the one and only measure needed to clip their wings, and, historically, that has worked quite well because oligarchs tend to antagonize pretty much everyone at some point.
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I'm of the opinion that billionaires are a policy failure. There is no human need so great that it cannot be met with a cool 100 Million. Beyond that, or even less, wealth is just a power mechanism.
15?ish years ago Piketty's 'Capital in the 21st Century' was published, to a round of howling and screeching by most every media outlet and pundit. His argument, backed with mountains of evidence, was that unfettered capitalism leads to a massive overconcentration of wealth at the top. What follows after is a distortion of the political process as the wealthy grab more power for themselves - the better to further enrich themselves.
Of course, the inarguable fact that he turns out to be correct must be small comfort for him.
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I'm of the opinion that billionaires are a policy failure. There is no human need so great that it cannot be met with a cool 100 Million. Beyond that, or even less, wealth is just a power mechanism.
15?ish years ago Piketty's 'Capital in the 21st Century' was published, to a round of howling and screeching by most every media outlet and pundit. His argument, backed with mountains of evidence, was that unfettered capitalism leads to a massive overconcentration of wealth at the top. What follows after is a distortion of the political process as the wealthy grab more power for themselves - the better to further enrich themselves.
Of course, the inarguable fact that he turns out to be correct must be small comfort for him.
Piketty spent his energy exhaustively documenting a simple fact that most economists have agreed on for many decades: Market-based capitalism improves the standards of living for millions but also increases inequality. He could have written a magazine article instead and said the exact same thing with the exact same impact.
But here’s the thing: Who has the power to intelligently regulate the markets so that the benefits are realized with less of the downsides? Congress.
Whenever you see a party-line vote (almost ALL THE TIME) your KNOW members of the house and senate are voting as they are instructed by their party bosses, not on behalf of their constituents. The bosses in the RNC and DNC call the shots. It’s a shame they’re in it for themselves and not the country…
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It is quite fascinating to watch how the media are scampering to re-envision Musk for their liberal v. right “market segments”
Musk was obviously a Dem fanboy for many years. In presidential. campaigns he supported Obama twice, Hillary, and then Biden. He openly criticized Trump’s character during the 2016 campaign.
Musk got a huge DOE loan which helped fund Tesla’s Model S etc. around 2010 and the Dems were leaning into his EV thing as big-Green and so on. Obama was all over SpaceX as a key partner to NASA and heralded Musk for pushing the private-public collaboration and commercialization of space. Musk was the first private enterprise to dock with the International Space Station. There was a big solar energy thing Musk was involved with the Dems on too—SolarCity—and Obama visited it with him. Musk often talked about the need for “sustainable” and “renewable” energy…which the Dems ate up like crazy. Musk even supported Obamacare: He was all in.
Under Trump V1.0 Musk was on some advisory councils but he dropped out in protest over Trump’s decision to leave the Paris Climate accord. So even under Trump, Musk was still leaning more left than right.
Something happened under Biden though. Biden wasn’t in love with him. I remember Biden hosted a big EV futures event and deliberately left Musk and Tesla out of it despite the lead role Tesla played in the industry. Jen Psaki rubbed salt into the wound, saying—well we invited the 3 largest employers of the UAW so figure it out! (IMO that’s an asshole move…)
During Biden, a lot of Musk’s west coast tech bros were getting pretty tough treatment that really surprised them. They went from being gods who walked among us on the left to scumbags who were encouraging teen suicide for profit..that sort of thing. And the GOP was attacking them for controlling pro-right speech on their platforms.
I understand the current discontent on the left with bigtech and Musk. But I actually think they committed a forced political error and can’t figure out how to undo it. The Dems, for whatever reason, decided to turn on tech in a really pissy way…for what?
We should all try to consider what would have happened last November if the Dems kept Silicon Valley inside the tent instead of snubbing them like pariahs.
THANK YOU JOE: https://www.newsweek.com/elon-musk-donald-trump-joe-biden-tesla-spacex-1967931
Soooo . . . are we just openly acknowledging that billionaire tech giants control US elections now?
Look—Sad but true, the DNC and RNC have completely captured the national legislative and governing processes but since there’s 2 of them there’s still that sliver of competition to contend with.
Could the Dems have won if Joe stepped aside a year ago? If Harris and others engaged in a REAL primary? If they did a little more to slow the record border crossings? If they kept the unions and “the working man” (constituiencies they OWNED for decades)? If..If..If…? Very possibly yes.
But they managed to lose constituencies they HAD IN THE BAG. And that’s just stupid.
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We should all try to consider what would have happened last November if the Dems kept Silicon Valley inside the tent instead of snubbing them like pariahs.
Soooo . . . are we just openly acknowledging that billionaire tech giants control US elections now?
Yeah, I don't think that's an overstatement. I think it's pretty clear that at the very least they have a huge influence.
They do if one lets them - fortunately, there are signs that the love affair between Democrats and billionaires with oligarchic ambitions might be ending.
The idea that billionaires of Musk´s oligarchic mold are flipping back and forth being Democrats and Republicans is nonsense because they are neither.
They opportunistically support and manipulate those that act most in their interest and that may be Democrats today and Republicans tomorrow. That's what sociopathy in action looks like.
The single-minded pursuit of their self interest is also their achilles heel of the oligarchs as it puts them squarely at odds with the public interest, but also at odds with other billionaires/oligarchs and political forces.
Freezing the oligarchs out of the political process is the one and only measure needed to clip their wings, and, historically, that has worked quite well because oligarchs tend to antagonize pretty much everyone at some point.
+1
This is the most clear-eyed view of the situation I have read so far. All those tech CEO's, like industrial CEO's before them, are not working on an ideological dimension. At least, not as defined by political parties, or even one country's politics. It is simple self interest.
Look at how many, for how long, have flocked to Davos. Just to get the summary of the politicos? No, to change their minds. To influence them.
Elon spent $277M to elect Trump, including ideas to outright pay voters. His wealth increased $300B after the election. Not a bad payback for less than a year's work. Plus, access foe the next four years.
Winners Take All, by Anand Giridharadas has an interesting perspective of someone who was in that orbit, lucidly looking at it.
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When you look at it through the eyes of a Democrat or a Republican, Musk et al can be heroes or demons, depending on how the political winds are blowing. The party apparatchiks and their media parasites provide the labels and observe the consequences. When they learn their lessons the hard way, the same fools place the same labels on different antagonists and try again. They know their partisans will be good lapdogs and dutifully recite their new talking points.
Next…
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When you look at it through the eyes of a Democrat or a Republican, Musk et al can be heroes or demons, depending on how the political winds are blowing. The party apparatchiks and their media parasites provide the labels and observe the consequences. When they learn their lessons the hard way, the same fools place the same labels on different antagonists and try again. They know their partisans will be good lapdogs and dutifully recite their new talking points.
Next…
Situations change. People change.
Next...
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When you look at it through the eyes of a Democrat or a Republican, Musk et al can be heroes or demons, depending on how the political winds are blowing. The party apparatchiks and their media parasites provide the labels and observe the consequences. When they learn their lessons the hard way, the same fools place the same labels on different antagonists and try again. They know their partisans will be good lapdogs and dutifully recite their new talking points.
Next…
Situations change. People change.
Next...
Bingo!
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When you look at it through the eyes of a Democrat or a Republican, Musk et al can be heroes or demons, depending on how the political winds are blowing. The party apparatchiks and their media parasites provide the labels and observe the consequences. When they learn their lessons the hard way, the same fools place the same labels on different antagonists and try again. They know their partisans will be good lapdogs and dutifully recite their new talking points.
Next…
Situations change. People change.
Next...
Bingo!
No, not bingo.
I realize that's a common tactic to win points -- "Ha! The libs used to love Musk but now they don't!" -- but it's ok to change your mind about someone when they start spouting far-right, nationalist, ideas.
Situations change. People change. We don't need "media parasites" to tell us that someone is an asshole when they're letting us know that using their own platform.
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When you look at it through the eyes of a Democrat or a Republican, Musk et al can be heroes or demons, depending on how the political winds are blowing. The party apparatchiks and their media parasites provide the labels and observe the consequences. When they learn their lessons the hard way, the same fools place the same labels on different antagonists and try again. They know their partisans will be good lapdogs and dutifully recite their new talking points.
Next…
Situations change. People change.
Next...
Bingo!
No, not bingo.
I realize that's a common tactic to win points -- "Ha! The libs used to love Musk but now they don't!" -- but it's ok to change your mind about someone when they start spouting far-right, nationalist, ideas.
Situations change. People change. We don't need "media parasites" to tell us that someone is an asshole when they're letting us know that using their own platform.
Yo Ron Scott, man stop it. Your both sides are equal and both sides do it all bad thing Schtick to every conversation is quite tiresome. You seem to troll every tread with same idea, doesn't matter how specific or what the topic is.
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I found this video compelling. A short compilation of Tesla CEO support for Nazi and Far right activists.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NjWl_RNDMSA
I forget when Musk was transitioned from ECO-buddy to the devil. Around 2022??
I think it coincided roughly with the time he started heavily using ketamine to treat his depression. Ketamine is linked to increased impulsivity and antisocial personality changes, and coupled with Musk's existing personality I've often wondered if this is what has pushed forward the version of him that so many people find off-putting.
If some one comes from rich family at top of food chain in apartheid South Africa, I think you can clearly understand the right wing, racist and Neo nazi views that people like Elon Musk, Peter Theil develop over their early formative years. Their families with fathers, grand fathers with the bigoted view are more of factor than any thing recent.
https://www.ft.com/content/cfbfa1e8-d8f8-42b9-b74c-dae6cc6185a0
These are not recent developments. Elon Musk has always been who he is now. He is constantly testing limits. Being rich all their lives also helps them take unimaginable risks for most people. He has been pushing boundaries all his life with not much of consequence. Every time his antics have no consequence he gets bolder.
But there is salience of drug use though. Drugs do make people fearless, aggressive and add fuel to fire that is already burning.
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I'm of the opinion that billionaires are a policy failure. There is no human need so great that it cannot be met with a cool 100 Million. Beyond that, or even less, wealth is just a power mechanism.
15?ish years ago Piketty's 'Capital in the 21st Century' was published, to a round of howling and screeching by most every media outlet and pundit. His argument, backed with mountains of evidence, was that unfettered capitalism leads to a massive overconcentration of wealth at the top. What follows after is a distortion of the political process as the wealthy grab more power for themselves - the better to further enrich themselves.
Of course, the inarguable fact that he turns out to be correct must be small comfort for him.
This might be true but if you save $40,000 per month over a working career of 20 years at a 7% compounding rate you end up with $21 million at the end of it. At the end of that period, let's say you're 50 years old and you live for another 30 years, consuming $15,000 each month for living expenses (this is a lot of money). By the end of your life the stash is worth $152 million and in another 30 years' time (when your heirs are reaching adulthood), even assuming no further deposits and monthly withdrawals of $15,000 the stash is worth $1.2 billion. That's with pretty modest compounding, no crazy bitcoin surge, and no fancy tricks.
So I can see how a high-upper-middle-class family (say top 0.3-0.5% in income plus good, frugal savings philosophy) over 2 generations could get to that sort of wealth. It's the Musk/Bezos kind of wealth that is unattainable.
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What percent of the population makes 40k a month, let alone saves 40k a month?
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What percent of the population makes 40k a month, let alone saves 40k a month?
According to this article
https://www.investopedia.com/personal-finance/how-much-income-puts-you-top-1-5-10/
Top 1% as of 2021 was around $682,000 per year. Those are individual incomes, so I'm guessing a top 1% household would be high six figures.
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When you look at it through the eyes of a Democrat or a Republican, Musk et al can be heroes or demons, depending on how the political winds are blowing. The party apparatchiks and their media parasites provide the labels and observe the consequences. When they learn their lessons the hard way, the same fools place the same labels on different antagonists and try again. They know their partisans will be good lapdogs and dutifully recite their new talking points.
Next…
Situations change. People change.
Next...
Bingo!
No, not bingo.
I realize that's a common tactic to win points -- "Ha! The libs used to love Musk but now they don't!" -- but it's ok to change your mind about someone when they start spouting far-right, nationalist, ideas.
Situations change. People change. We don't need "media parasites" to tell us that someone is an asshole when they're letting us know that using their own platform.
Yo Ron Scott, man stop it. Your both sides are equal and both sides do it all bad thing Schtick to every conversation is quite tiresome. You seem to troll every tread with same idea, doesn't matter how specific or what the topic is.
Dude, if you don’t like it don’t read it. I’m good.
But if you’re selling party-line/media-lackey partisanship as salvation in light of the never-ending failures this approach has yielded in our lifetimes, I’m not buying. THAT’S the shit that’s tiring…
Those who believe choosing sides and blaming the “enemies within” are the keys to prosperity—while regurgitating party talking points like little lemmings— are dooming us all.
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What percent of the population makes 40k a month, let alone saves 40k a month?
I think it's a typo. 4K per month would pretty well do it.
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When you look at it through the eyes of a Democrat or a Republican, Musk et al can be heroes or demons, depending on how the political winds are blowing. The party apparatchiks and their media parasites provide the labels and observe the consequences. When they learn their lessons the hard way, the same fools place the same labels on different antagonists and try again. They know their partisans will be good lapdogs and dutifully recite their new talking points.
Next…
Situations change. People change.
Next...
Bingo!
No, not bingo.
I realize that's a common tactic to win points -- "Ha! The libs used to love Musk but now they don't!" -- but it's ok to change your mind about someone when they start spouting far-right, nationalist, ideas.
Situations change. People change. We don't need "media parasites" to tell us that someone is an asshole when they're letting us know that using their own platform.
Yo Ron Scott, man stop it. Your both sides are equal and both sides do it all bad thing Schtick to every conversation is quite tiresome. You seem to troll every tread with same idea, doesn't matter how specific or what the topic is.
Dude, if you don’t like it don’t read it. I’m good.
But if you’re selling party-line/media-lackey partisanship as salvation in light of the never-ending failures this approach has yielded in our lifetimes, I’m not buying. THAT’S the shit that’s tiring…
Those who believe choosing sides and blaming the “enemies within” are the keys to prosperity—while regurgitating party talking points like little lemmings— are dooming us all.
This tells more about you than anybody else. I think most people don't think in terms of party ideology or talking points. Individuals can have their own opinions with no relation to any party. Put your party nonsense and us vs them aside, it makes for better discussion of ideas.
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The only good thing about having hyper partisan posters is that I get a tenable amount of exposure to what the Fox News / Social Media addicted consumers of information are digesting and spitting back up to each other. The fact that they couch their posts with 'everyone else are lemmings / brainwashed / communists' helps me distinguish just how superficial and emotionally manipulated some of my fellow Americans are. It's a complicated time as disinformation thrives and distrust of journalists and the media is fomented by our top politicians and billionaires (who benefit from misplaced trust and confusion), but I remain hopeful that oligarchs and corrupt politicians overplay their hands and the pendulum swings back to the center in the coming years, for the time being we are concerningly off balance.
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The only good thing about having hyper partisan posters is that I get a tenable amount of exposure to what the Fox News / Social Media addicted consumers of information are digesting and spitting back up to each other. The fact that they couch their posts with 'everyone else are lemmings / brainwashed / communists' helps me distinguish just how superficial and emotionally manipulated some of my fellow Americans are. It's a complicated time as disinformation thrives and distrust of journalists and the media is fomented by our top politicians and billionaires (who benefit from misplaced trust and confusion), but I remain hopeful that oligarchs and corrupt politicians overplay their hands and the pendulum swings back to the center in the coming years, for the time being we are concerningly off balance.
I'm increasingly of the opinion we are about to see that there is a de facto "fourth branch of government" in the United States and it is intermediate and long term bond investors. Moreso if they hold government debt. People are going to notice real quick if the new oligarch's policies are met with bond selling (increasing long term interest rates). I'm sure what I consider the 'new mainstream media' is going to try to blame liberals for rising interest rates but I think it is going to be hard sell when everyone's real estate and equity holdings are declining and costs are going up across the board. The peanut gallery was promised cheap eggs and gas. They are not going to get it in my opinion, exactly the opposite.
I think bond investors still represent the "smart money" and are almost entirely politically neutral. They act of pure self interest and have the longest planning horizon of any of the power brokers in America. They are the "other billionaires" that we don't hear about. And they don't signal ahead of time what they want much. They just go about self interested trading of bonds and we see the evidence of their consensus in the 10/20/30 year Treasury yields.
This fourth branch is actually quite a lot more powerful than the Fed. About a trillion dollars of US Treasuries trade daily. The volume of foreign currency trading hands at any moment is almost unimaginable and one drives the other. The fourth branch is capable of creating (and profiting from!) a currency and debt crisis.
FAFO.
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... The peanut gallery was promised cheap eggs and gas. They are not going to get it in my opinion, exactly the opposite.
...
I think that peanut gallery is in for a long four years. Having a slow moving, internally conflicted government is a good thing sometimes. When Trump's answer to bringing down prices has been a couple throw away lines demanding OPEC to 'do him a solid and stop hurting his feelings'. The rest of his promises apparently hinged on that, because then he can demand lower interest rates, oh and by the way, that'll also hurt Russia enough that they'll come to the table and end the Ukraine invasion...
Meanwhile, everything else he actually is doing is going to explode the national debt, like cutting taxes, deporting everyone in the most expensive and productivity destroying way possible, and pursuing investments like AI, Crypto, buying Greenland, acquiring the Panama Canal... Will their actually be offsetting cuts at some point, or are we just supposed to believe all this will pay for itself and regulation cuts will send GDP soaring? Trump needs a better playbook than the one that worked in 2016 when national debt was much lower, regulation more onerous, and tax cuts had a more beneficial impact to his voters.
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I'm increasingly of the opinion we are about to see that there is a de facto "fourth branch of government" in the United States and it is intermediate and long term bond investors. Moreso if they hold government debt. People are going to notice real quick if the new oligarch's policies are met with bond selling (increasing long term interest rates).
That's exactly what happened to Liz Truss and the Conservatives in the UK. Only, the US government can't immediately collapse; our election clock keeps its time.
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... The peanut gallery was promised cheap eggs and gas. They are not going to get it in my opinion, exactly the opposite.
...
I think that peanut gallery is in for a long four years. Having a slow moving, internally conflicted government is a good thing sometimes. When Trump's answer to bringing down prices has been a couple throw away lines demanding OPEC to 'do him a solid and stop hurting his feelings'. The rest of his promises apparently hinged on that, because then he can demand lower interest rates, oh and by the way, that'll also hurt Russia enough that they'll come to the table and end the Ukraine invasion...
Meanwhile, everything else he actually is doing is going to explode the national debt, like cutting taxes, deporting everyone in the most expensive and productivity destroying way possible, and pursuing investments like AI, Crypto, buying Greenland, acquiring the Panama Canal... Will their actually be offsetting cuts at some point, or are we just supposed to believe all this will pay for itself and regulation cuts will send GDP soaring? Trump needs a better playbook than the one that worked in 2016 when national debt was much lower, regulation more onerous, and tax cuts had a more beneficial impact to his voters.
So is this the longer version of pump and dump?
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Am I the only one who thinks gas is already incredibly cheap and has been so for the past several years? Over the past few years it’s stayed between under $3/gallon to slightly over $3/ gallon in my state. I can fill my tank for around $20 usually, and I only need to fill up once every 6 weeks or so. In what world is that expensive? There’s been very little inflation of gas prices.
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US gas is certainly cheaper than in my province, where it’s currently 1.56/litre or almost $6/American gallon. And we are one of the cheaper provinces. I fill my car roughly monthly when it’s about 1/4 full and pay about $45 CAD. I don’t drive a lot and most of it is highway driving, so I’m okay with our prices. We recently had a “tax holiday” for 6 months when the price was only 1.25/litre.
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Am I the only one who thinks gas is already incredibly cheap and has been so for the past several years? Over the past few years it’s stayed between under $3/gallon to slightly over $3/ gallon in my state. I can fill my tank for around $20 usually, and I only need to fill up once every 6 weeks or so. In what world is that expensive? There’s been very little inflation of gas prices.
I think fuel and all consumable resources are too cheap generally. Would prefer to see taxes which raise the price by 2x or 3x to dissuade consumption.
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Am I the only one who thinks gas is already incredibly cheap and has been so for the past several years? Over the past few years it’s stayed between under $3/gallon to slightly over $3/ gallon in my state. I can fill my tank for around $20 usually, and I only need to fill up once every 6 weeks or so. In what world is that expensive? There’s been very little inflation of gas prices.
I think fuel and all consumable resources are too cheap generally. Would prefer to see taxes which raise the price by 2x or 3x to dissuade consumption.
I’m not saying Europe does everything right, but they do use taxation more effectively. They use the word sustainable without treating it like a four letter word…
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Am I the only one who thinks gas is already incredibly cheap and has been so for the past several years? Over the past few years it’s stayed between under $3/gallon to slightly over $3/ gallon in my state. I can fill my tank for around $20 usually, and I only need to fill up once every 6 weeks or so. In what world is that expensive? There’s been very little inflation of gas prices.
I think fuel and all consumable resources are too cheap generally. Would prefer to see taxes which raise the price by 2x or 3x to dissuade consumption.
I’m not saying Europe does everything right, but they do use taxation more effectively. They use the word sustainable without treating it like a four letter word…
I agree it's much more effective than CAFE standards. It was easy to get used to a Ford Ranger as a "big pickup truck." Then you would see a tow truck, the only kind of F-150 in Ireland, and it looked gigantic!
I also once saw a Hummer 2 tring to navigate the Champs Elysees and the traffic circle around the Arc de Triumph. On the one hand, it could technically crush anything around it. On the other hand, it might *accidentally* crush anything around it. The driver was clearly uncomfortable, and I'm sure they had terrible visibility of the city cars around them. And probably all the other drivers letting them know how ridiculous they were.
A lot of truck culture is relative.
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Am I the only one who thinks gas is already incredibly cheap and has been so for the past several years? Over the past few years it’s stayed between under $3/gallon to slightly over $3/ gallon in my state. I can fill my tank for around $20 usually, and I only need to fill up once every 6 weeks or so. In what world is that expensive? There’s been very little inflation of gas prices.
I think fuel and all consumable resources are too cheap generally. Would prefer to see taxes which raise the price by 2x or 3x to dissuade consumption.
It won't fly with either party here. Conservatives because perceived rurality (I learned that term from city nerd) and toxic masculinity, and liberals because the lack of other transportation options makes it a regressive tax.
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https://www.reddit.com/r/antiwork/comments/1ib831t/philip_low_longtime_friend_and_peer_of_elon_musk/
Excellent take down/analysis of Musk’s Nazi salutes and purposes in trying to control the Nazi wing of the MAGA party. Very important read, and a unique take on what Musk hoped would happen (and didn’t) when he did two Nazi salutes at the inauguration. Author is Philip Low, billionaire founder of NeuroVigil.
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https://www.reddit.com/r/antiwork/comments/1ib831t/philip_low_longtime_friend_and_peer_of_elon_musk/
Excellent take down/analysis of Musk’s Nazi salutes and purposes in trying to control the Nazi wing of the MAGA party. Very important read, and a unique take on what Musk hoped would happen (and didn’t) when he did two Nazi salutes at the inauguration. Author is Philip Low, billionaire founder of NeuroVigil.
So, Howard Hughes, then; not Thomas Edison.
Or, maybe Henry Ford is the right comparison.
This is not the only successful, former friend to speak out about the current version of Elon. Although, describing him as transactional helps explain why he and Trump would get along,
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https://www.reddit.com/r/antiwork/comments/1ib831t/philip_low_longtime_friend_and_peer_of_elon_musk/
Excellent take down/analysis of Musk’s Nazi salutes and purposes in trying to control the Nazi wing of the MAGA party. Very important read, and a unique take on what Musk hoped would happen (and didn’t) when he did two Nazi salutes at the inauguration. Author is Philip Low, billionaire founder of NeuroVigil.
Interesting theory. For the record, I also think that Elon did the Nazi salute on purpose. But I think he did it to trigger the left and make them lose their shit. The whole “Republicans are Nazis” narrative hasn’t exactly worked out well for the left, and the more unhinged they look, the more it seems to work in the Republicans’ favor.
When you look at it this way, the left certainly fell for Elon’s bait. I’ve never seen them get this triggered since the George Floyd incident! As to whether it is actually worth it to trigger the left in this way, I’m not sure. There are a lot of negatives for Elon here. Certainly it makes him come off as more crazy and unhinged in my eyes.
Along these lines, I also think Trump made his comments about Elon and the voting machines in Pennsylvania on purpose. He wants the left to be consumed by conspiracy theories, because it makes them look unhinged and hypocritical.
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@Herbert Derp I find it really difficult to focus on the substance of your argument when you refer to George Floyd as an incident, which seems to greatly trivialize his murder.
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https://www.reddit.com/r/antiwork/comments/1ib831t/philip_low_longtime_friend_and_peer_of_elon_musk/
Excellent take down/analysis of Musk’s Nazi salutes and purposes in trying to control the Nazi wing of the MAGA party. Very important read, and a unique take on what Musk hoped would happen (and didn’t) when he did two Nazi salutes at the inauguration. Author is Philip Low, billionaire founder of NeuroVigil.
Interesting theory. For the record, I also think that Elon did the Nazi salute on purpose. But I think he did it to trigger the left and make them lose their shit. The whole “Republicans are Nazis” narrative hasn’t exactly worked out well for the left, and the more unhinged they look, the more it seems to work in the Republicans’ favor.
In your opinion, how should people respond to powerful figures closely connected to the leadership of the US government making references to Nazism? Do you think that it should be laughed off and not treated seriously (and if so, what other fascist/racist gestures and comments do you find funny)?
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@Herbert Derp I find it really difficult to focus on the substance of your argument when you refer to George Floyd as an incident, which seems to greatly trivialize his murder.
I also read it as 'Floyd was just an incident to trigger the left' which made me throw up in my mouth. Has social media lobotomized people to the point that they think the world is just about 'triggering' people and laughing at their response?
Ultimately, all of these 'silly attempts to trigger those not in my tribe' build up to real world consequences. I'm fully expecting more domestic terrorism and unrest. Hopefully I'm wrong and I'll be pleasantly surprised otherwise.
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https://www.reddit.com/r/antiwork/comments/1ib831t/philip_low_longtime_friend_and_peer_of_elon_musk/
Excellent take down/analysis of Musk’s Nazi salutes and purposes in trying to control the Nazi wing of the MAGA party. Very important read, and a unique take on what Musk hoped would happen (and didn’t) when he did two Nazi salutes at the inauguration. Author is Philip Low, billionaire founder of NeuroVigil.
Thanks for posting, very interesting insider take from one of his peers.
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Likely scenario: there will be another Gorge Floyd "incident" (aka murder.
There will be loud protests.
The private militias will move in and attempt to "restore order" (aka shoot protesters).
Basically, right wing domestic terrorism is what we have to look forward to.
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Likely scenario: there will be another Gorge Floyd "incident" (aka murder.
There will be loud protests.
The private militias will move in and attempt to "restore order" (aka shoot protesters).
Basically, right wing domestic terrorism is what we have to look forward to.
Well, these protesters have guns too. I'm not sure why people think they don't/won't. It will probably be very, very bad. Trump is speed running breaking the union.
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In your opinion, how should people respond to powerful figures closely connected to the leadership of the US government making references to Nazism? Do you think that it should be laughed off and not treated seriously (and if so, what other fascist/racist gestures and comments do you find funny)?
I also read it as 'Floyd was just an incident to trigger the left' which made me throw up in my mouth. Has social media lobotomized people to the point that they think the world is just about 'triggering' people and laughing at their response?
I don’t think it should be laughed off and not treated seriously. Elon is using propaganda to manipulate people across the world. Considering how unhinged he has become, I don’t trust him to do the right thing. I think he’s losing his mind.
And I don’t think that calling something out as propaganda makes it silly or trivial. There is a real impact here. For instance, I believe the Chinese used pro-Palestine propaganda on TikTok to suppress the Democratic vote and help Trump get elected. I was warning people for years about how dangerous TikTok was, and nobody took me seriously, and then China actually went and used their propaganda mind control machine to get Donald Trump elected.
And for the record, the series of events surrounding George Floyd’s murder, whatever you want to call them, traumatized me and were a key factor for why I left the United States and never want to come back. I absolutely take it seriously.
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https://www.reddit.com/r/antiwork/comments/1ib831t/philip_low_longtime_friend_and_peer_of_elon_musk/
Excellent take down/analysis of Musk’s Nazi salutes and purposes in trying to control the Nazi wing of the MAGA party. Very important read, and a unique take on what Musk hoped would happen (and didn’t) when he did two Nazi salutes at the inauguration. Author is Philip Low, billionaire founder of NeuroVigil.
Interesting theory. For the record, I also think that Elon did the Nazi salute on purpose. But I think he did it to trigger the left and make them lose their shit. The whole “Republicans are Nazis” narrative hasn’t exactly worked out well for the left, and the more unhinged they look, the more it seems to work in the Republicans’ favor.
In your opinion, how should people respond to powerful figures closely connected to the leadership of the US government making references to Nazism? Do you think that it should be laughed off and not treated seriously (and if so, what other fascist/racist gestures and comments do you find funny)?
I don’t think it should be laughed off and not treated seriously. Elon is using propaganda to manipulate people across the world. Considering how unhinged he has become, I don’t trust him to do the right thing. I think he’s losing his mind.
And I don’t think that calling something out as propaganda makes it silly or trivial.
OK. You believe that Elon Musk is using Nazi symbols in front of crowds to manipulate people as a propaganda effort.
Can you explain how your being triggered by Musk's action is different from anyone else? How is your response any less unhinged than the response you're seeing others take? Most of what I've seen in commentary about his purposeful Nazi salute was a general mild condemnation and concern that it will continue and build from here. That doesn't sound miles away from what you're saying.
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In your opinion, how should people respond to powerful figures closely connected to the leadership of the US government making references to Nazism? Do you think that it should be laughed off and not treated seriously (and if so, what other fascist/racist gestures and comments do you find funny)?
I also read it as 'Floyd was just an incident to trigger the left' which made me throw up in my mouth. Has social media lobotomized people to the point that they think the world is just about 'triggering' people and laughing at their response?
I don’t think it should be laughed off and not treated seriously. Elon is using propaganda to manipulate people across the world. Considering how unhinged he has become, I don’t trust him to do the right thing. I think he’s losing his mind.
And I don’t think that calling something out as propaganda makes it silly or trivial. There is a real impact here. For instance, I believe the Chinese used pro-Palestine propaganda on TikTok to suppress the Democratic vote and help Trump get elected. I was warning people for years about how dangerous TikTok was, and nobody took me seriously, and then China actually went and used their propaganda mind control machine to get Donald Trump elected.
And for the record, the series of events surrounding George Floyd’s murder, whatever you want to call them, traumatized me and were a key factor for why I left the United States and never want to come back. I absolutely take it seriously.
Thank you for clarifying, it's always difficult to understand each other over the internet, and you do make valid points.
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OK. You believe that Elon Musk is using Nazi symbols in front of crowds to manipulate people as a propaganda effort.
Can you explain how your being triggered by Musk's action is different from anyone else?
From my point of view, if your reaction to Elon’s antics is to get super triggered and accuse Elon and the Republicans as being literal Nazis, then you’re playing right into Elon’s hands. I think he was intentionally trolling you. He wants you to get triggered in this way.
Again, the “Republicans are Nazis/Racists/White Supremacists” narrative has not helped the left. This narrative was pushed for years and didn’t do anything to sway public opinion or stop Trump from being elected.
The vast majority of people on the right don’t actually believe they are Nazis/Racists/White Supremacists, and people in the center don’t seem to buy the narrative either.
Elon knows all of this, which is why he is baiting the left to take up positions which harm them. So if you are taking the bait, you are literally becoming Elon’s pawn. That’s the difference.
Personally, I try my best to identify propaganda wherever it exists and keep my mind as free as possible.
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I think you should read the analysis I posted upthread written by a billionaire investor who was a friend and coworker to Musk. His point about the Nazi salute is that Elon probably hoped there would be salutes back to him. When that didn’t happen, it fucked up his attempt to control the Nazi arm of the MAGAs by signaling he was chief troll and one of them. He goes into some detail of what Musk is aiming for with Trump’s cabinet, etc. and which MAGAs he’s feuding with.
I did read Phillip Low’s take, and if you understand what I’m saying, you’ll see that I am broadly aligned with him. The main difference is that I think Low is missing the point about Elon trolling the left, and also I think it’s unlikely that Elon thought the crowd would perform a mass Nazi salute. Because the vast majority of people on the right don’t believe they are Nazis and don’t approve of Nazism.
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As an aside, George Floyd and officer Derek Chauvin knew each other. Police officers often need to earn extra income, and Chauvin worked as a bouncer - at the same place George Floyd worked. Where George Floyd always calmed situations down, Chauvin was always making them worse. When Chauvin was fired, he blamed George Floyd. The two knew each other, and Chauvin hated George Floyd's guts. It wasn't random or an accident that he knelt on Floyd's neck - it was revenge. But it is still racist to think he could get away with murdering a Black man.
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As an aside, George Floyd and officer Derek Chauvin knew each other. Police officers often need to earn extra income, and Chauvin worked as a bouncer - at the same place George Floyd worked. Where George Floyd always calmed situations down, Chauvin was always making them worse. When Chauvin was fired, he blamed George Floyd. The two knew each other, and Chauvin hated George Floyd's guts. It wasn't random or an accident that he knelt on Floyd's neck - it was revenge. But it is still racist to think he could get away with murdering a Black man.
I did not know this. I thought what made these kinds if incidents “hate crimes” or racially motivated was the accused’s intent to harm based on the color of the victim’s skin, religion, etc., and was not charged if the crime was due more to a vendetta.
(I also wish we’d stop using the word “race” as if there were multiple races of humans.)
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As an aside, George Floyd and officer Derek Chauvin knew each other. Police officers often need to earn extra income, and Chauvin worked as a bouncer - at the same place George Floyd worked. Where George Floyd always calmed situations down, Chauvin was always making them worse. When Chauvin was fired, he blamed George Floyd. The two knew each other, and Chauvin hated George Floyd's guts. It wasn't random or an accident that he knelt on Floyd's neck - it was revenge. But it is still racist to think he could get away with murdering a Black man.
I did not know this. I thought what made these kinds if incidents “hate crimes” or racially motivated was the accused’s intent to harm based on the color of the victim’s skin, religion, etc., and was not charged if the crime was due more to a vendetta.
(I also wish we’d stop using the word “race” as if there were multiple races of humans.)
You can also see it in the sequence of events at the scene: George Floyd quietly sitting on the curb, handcuffed. Officer Chauvin arrives, and pushes Floyd into the back of a police car. Chauvin says something to Floyd, and Floyd starts struggling and thrashing. That struggling - which was caused by Chauvin - gave Chauvin the excuse to pin Floyd.
Perhaps "race" can be discussed in a separate thread, but if you are Republican and claiming race is a social construct, you might be a Democrat now.
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I and everyone in the entire federal government got an email this morning inviting us ALL to resign. deferred resignation effective september 25. That this applies to everyone except USPS, immigration, and the military.
And that if we do not take this offer, and let it expire, we have no guarantee of employment after that date.
I have heard that it is written very similar to the twitter email form letter for resignation.
I don't know what to do. I have worked in research for the past 20+ years. Even if I leave the government (which I do not want to do), if all federal grants are paused and funding cut, I do not believe I can find a job that uses my skills and experience.
My daughter is graduating college and was intending on a career in research. I don't know if she will be able to do this, given the current situation.
I feel heartsick.
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I and everyone in the entire federal government got an email this morning inviting us ALL to resign. deferred resignation effective september 25. That this applies to everyone except USPS, immigration, and the military.
And that if we do not take this offer, and let it expire, we have no guarantee of employment after that date.
I have heard that it is written very similar to the twitter email form letter for resignation.
I don't know what to do. I have worked in research for the past 20+ years. Even if I leave the government (which I do not want to do), if all federal grants are paused and funding cut, I do not believe I can find a job using my skills and experience either. My daughter is graduating college and was intending on a career in research. I don't know if she will be able to do this either, given the current situation.
I feel heartsick.
I'm sorry to hear about this. I don't know what the best advice is. It just makes me think that I need to be a lot more serious about the FI side of FIRE so that I'm better prepared for a scenario like this.
Good luck with the path that you choose.
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I think you should read the analysis I posted upthread written by a billionaire investor who was a friend and coworker to Musk. His point about the Nazi salute is that Elon probably hoped there would be salutes back to him. When that didn’t happen, it fucked up his attempt to control the Nazi arm of the MAGAs by signaling he was chief troll and one of them. He goes into some detail of what Musk is aiming for with Trump’s cabinet, etc. and which MAGAs he’s feuding with.
I did read Phillip Low’s take, and if you understand what I’m saying, you’ll see that I am broadly aligned with him. The main difference is that I think Low is missing the point about Elon trolling the left, and also I think it’s unlikely that Elon thought the crowd would perform a mass Nazi salute. Because the vast majority of people on the right don’t believe they are Nazis and don’t approve of Nazism.
He was much more specific than that in his theory. He DID NOT SAY HE WAS A NAZI, in fact he said he was not. He was saying that Musk was doing multiple things:
—trolling, which up to now has been successful in keeping him at the top of all news cycles and inflating his net worth
—saying fuck you to everyone in America just like he said fuck you to all his advertisers on his ad-driven platform
—trying to assert dominance/attract THE NAZI WING OF THE MAGA PARTY because he was angry over his cabinet picks being rejected
Anyone saying there are no Nazis in the MAGA party is fooling themselves. Sure they’re not all of them, or most of them. But they are there and we saw them being coddled the first term too.
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Vivek Ramaswamy
@VivekGRamaswamy
The reason top tech companies often hire foreign-born & first-generation engineers over “native” Americans isn’t because of an innate American IQ deficit (a lazy & wrong explanation). A key part of it comes down to the c-word: culture. Tough questions demand tough answers & if we’re really serious about fixing the problem, we have to confront the TRUTH:
Our American culture has venerated mediocrity over excellence for way too long (at least since the 90s and likely longer). That doesn’t start in college, it starts YOUNG.
A culture that celebrates the prom queen over the math olympiad champ, or the jock over the valedictorian, will not produce the best engineers.
This is like reading an Ayn Rand novel: 80% "yes" and then "Oh, god no. Wtf?"
Yes there's a problem in the U.S. and Canada where we cared more about sports heroes and class clowns than geniuses. Absolutely.
China has this figured out. Their kids see amazing skills on TikTok while ours see dumb-ass stunts and car crashes.
But the solution isn't math tutors and more homework. It's investing in daily education
We did "make them do homework" in the 1960s and we've kept doing it and it doesn't work.
Find an actual solution that people have actually used.
Care about - and fund - something at your high school besides the football team and it's twelve coaches and twenty brain-damaging concussions per year.
But don't pretend homework will fix this.
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This is what abusers do. They cross boundaries repeatedly. Eventually the victims become inured to their escalating actions, the Overton window shifts, and now what is acceptable baseline behavior is something that would have been shocking if done initially.
Enablers gaslight the victim into believing things aren’t that bad, because the enablers are benefiting from the system or too comfortable to fight it.
We forget this is shocking at our own peril. To think that Trump is repeatedly threatening to take territory of sovereign nations in the first days of his presidency— to me that is the most shocking thing. It is an outright escalation of rhetoric from his first term.
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I and everyone in the entire federal government got an email this morning inviting us ALL to resign. deferred resignation effective september 25. That this applies to everyone except USPS, immigration, and the military.
And that if we do not take this offer, and let it expire, we have no guarantee of employment after that date.
I have heard that it is written very similar to the twitter email form letter for resignation.
I don't know what to do. I have worked in research for the past 20+ years. Even if I leave the government (which I do not want to do), if all federal grants are paused and funding cut, I do not believe I can find a job that uses my skills and experience.
My daughter is graduating college and was intending on a career in research. I don't know if she will be able to do this, given the current situation.
I feel heartsick.
Sorry you have to go through this. I can imagine hundreds of thousands of employees and their families going through uncertainty these sick fucks are causing to the country. I think contagion will spread to other areas.
Hang in there and don't take any drastic actions. While there is much uncertainty there is some chance attention from this will switch to something else. After next mid terms Trump will be a lame duck, I think that is why they are all going full speed to dismantle government.
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The funding freeze appears to have blown up in their face already:
Trump administration rescinds funding freeze directive, memo shows
The decision caused chaos for agencies across the country.
Katherine Faulders, Peter Charalambous, Alexander Mallin, and Benjamin Siegel
Wednesday, January 29, 2025 1:25PM
WASHINGTON -- Donald Trump's administration has rescinded its sweeping directive that sought to pause potentially trillions in loans, grants and financial assistance, according to a memo obtained by ABC News.
"OMB memorandum M-25-13 is rescinded," the short memo from Matthew Vaeth, the acting director of the Office of Management and Budget, reads. "If you have questions about implementing the President's Executive Orders, please contact your agency General Counsel."
The policy reversal follows a tumultuous 48 hours for the White House, as states and local governments raised concerns that funding for health care, law enforcement, disaster aid and infrastructure spending could be paused or delayed during the expansive rollout of the policy.
https://abc7ny.com/post/white-house-budget-office-rescinds-order-federal-grant-freeze-sparked-widespread-confusion/15846698/
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As an aside, George Floyd and officer Derek Chauvin knew each other. Police officers often need to earn extra income, and Chauvin worked as a bouncer - at the same place George Floyd worked. Where George Floyd always calmed situations down, Chauvin was always making them worse. When Chauvin was fired, he blamed George Floyd. The two knew each other, and Chauvin hated George Floyd's guts. It wasn't random or an accident that he knelt on Floyd's neck - it was revenge. But it is still racist to think he could get away with murdering a Black man.
I did not know this. I thought what made these kinds if incidents “hate crimes” or racially motivated was the accused’s intent to harm based on the color of the victim’s skin, religion, etc., and was not charged if the crime was due more to a vendetta.
(I also wish we’d stop using the word “race” as if there were multiple races of humans.)
You can also see it in the sequence of events at the scene: George Floyd quietly sitting on the curb, handcuffed. Officer Chauvin arrives, and pushes Floyd into the back of a police car. Chauvin says something to Floyd, and Floyd starts struggling and thrashing. That struggling - which was caused by Chauvin - gave Chauvin the excuse to pin Floyd.
Perhaps "race" can be discussed in a separate thread, but if you are Republican and claiming race is a social construct, you might be a Democrat now.
Apologies for extending this tangent, and I know many are just going to roll their eyes and assume I'm attempting to defend the indefensible for icky motivations but misinformation is misinformation and we're all against that, right? I take a special interest in observing how initial reporting of controversial events almost always combines with ideological presuppositions to create calcified narratives that resist subsequent fact finding. It's actually pretty fascinating to circle back after trials are complete to learn how events actually unfolded, which nuances and quirks of fate contributed and which facets of the initial story were misinterpreted or flat out wrong. So motivated only by having a little less bad information sit unchallenged on the internet I would point out:
1) The one person who said Chauvin and Floyd knew each other and had some beef pretty quickly retracted that after realizing he was mistaken about Floyd's identity. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/george-floyd-derek-chauvin-nightclub-bumped-heads-changes-story/ (https://www.cbsnews.com/news/george-floyd-derek-chauvin-nightclub-bumped-heads-changes-story/) The most that could be established was that Chauvin worked uniformed off duty security from his squad car in the parking lot and Floyd worked as a bouncer inside the club and their usual shifts overlapped 1 evening a week for less than a year. The prosecution couldn't produce anyone who could testify they had seen them interacting so the fact they occasionally worked at the same venue was excluded from the trial due to potentially being prejudicial.
2) The relevant section of body cam video is now available and doesn't show what was described above either. https://youtu.be/1Fpivi5ljhI (https://youtu.be/1Fpivi5ljhI).
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As an aside, George Floyd and officer Derek Chauvin knew each other. Police officers often need to earn extra income, and Chauvin worked as a bouncer - at the same place George Floyd worked. Where George Floyd always calmed situations down, Chauvin was always making them worse. When Chauvin was fired, he blamed George Floyd. The two knew each other, and Chauvin hated George Floyd's guts. It wasn't random or an accident that he knelt on Floyd's neck - it was revenge. But it is still racist to think he could get away with murdering a Black man.
I did not know this. I thought what made these kinds if incidents “hate crimes” or racially motivated was the accused’s intent to harm based on the color of the victim’s skin, religion, etc., and was not charged if the crime was due more to a vendetta.
(I also wish we’d stop using the word “race” as if there were multiple races of humans.)
…if you are Republican and claiming race is a social construct, you might be a Democrat now.
I actually consider myself an American and—for the most part—consider partisans to be the true unpatriotic groups in the country. (See my salutation.) These unpatriotic partisans have a tell: If you don’t regurgitate their leaders’ talking points they consider you a member of the other party. Dopes…
And I always considered homo sapiens to be one race.
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I and everyone in the entire federal government got an email this morning inviting us ALL to resign. deferred resignation effective september 25. That this applies to everyone except USPS, immigration, and the military.
And that if we do not take this offer, and let it expire, we have no guarantee of employment after that date.
I have heard that it is written very similar to the twitter email form letter for resignation.
I don't know what to do. I have worked in research for the past 20+ years. Even if I leave the government (which I do not want to do), if all federal grants are paused and funding cut, I do not believe I can find a job that uses my skills and experience.
My daughter is graduating college and was intending on a career in research. I don't know if she will be able to do this, given the current situation.
I feel heartsick.
Sorry you have to go through this. I can imagine hundreds of thousands of employees and their families going through uncertainty these sick fucks are causing to the country. I think contagion will spread to other areas.
Hang in there and don't take any drastic actions. While there is much uncertainty there is some chance attention from this will switch to something else. After next mid terms Trump will be a lame duck, I think that is why they are all going full speed to dismantle government.
Remember that many of the Twitter employees who took this so-called deal got screwed in the 'payment' period and never received the full payout.
And also, STAY IN YOUR JOBS. Make them actually terminate the positions the proper way via defunding them as part of congressional budget negotiations. (My guess is that they can't easily do this and are trying to scare or dupe people into voluntarily quitting).
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Rob, normally I'd agree with you. But lately you are equating the Democratic and Republican party as equally egregious. One party is actively dismantling the guardrails of our constitution and norms and separation of powers of the three branches of gov, and one is not. All the talk about immigrants and transgender, well neither of those groups have hurt me one IOTA. While 45 executive orders are directly harming me. Including indirectly causing the death of my father at the beginning of COVID,when hospitals did not get the federal support that was there for pandemics, because Trump dismantled it. So yeah criticize Democrats for being ineffectual, lack of effective messaging. But honestly going to tune you out because you are being disingenuous. You do not in turn condemn what the Republican party does. Including run someone as their nominee, who is in all senses of the word unfit for office, and who is now surprise! trying to do a speed run smash and grab of the US gov.
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Rob, normally I'd agree with you. But lately you are equating the Democratic and Republican party as equally egregious. One party is actively dismantling the guardrails of our constitution and norms and separation of powers of the three branches of gov, and one is not. All the talk about immigrants and transgender, well neither of those groups have hurt me one IOTA. While 45 executive orders are directly harming me. Including indirectly causing the death of my father at the beginning of COVID,when hospitals did not get the federal support that was there for pandemics, because Trump dismantled it. So yeah criticize Democrats for being ineffectual, lack of effective messaging. But honestly going to tune you out because you are being disingenuous. You do not in turn condemn what the Republican party does. Including run someone as their nominee, who is in all senses of the word unfit for office, and who is now surprise! trying to do a speed run smash and grab of the US gov.
We should all feel free to tune out whatever we want. I do so all the time. BUT—I definitely agree the Rs are much worse than the Ds these days. I’ve been a Nevertrumper from day 1. That just doesn’t make me a D. If you believe criticizing the 2-party system is the same as “equating” the parties you’re just drinking the whatabout kool-aid and refusing to face the underlying issue. (IMO)
For a quick peak into the DEEP HYPOCRISY of the Democrats, here’s a thoughtful criticism from The Times: https://youtu.be/hNDgcjVGHIw?feature=shared
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Rob, normally I'd agree with you. But lately you are equating the Democratic and Republican party as equally egregious. One party is actively dismantling the guardrails of our constitution and norms and separation of powers of the three branches of gov, and one is not. All the talk about immigrants and transgender, well neither of those groups have hurt me one IOTA. While 45 executive orders are directly harming me. Including indirectly causing the death of my father at the beginning of COVID,when hospitals did not get the federal support that was there for pandemics, because Trump dismantled it. So yeah criticize Democrats for being ineffectual, lack of effective messaging. But honestly going to tune you out because you are being disingenuous. You do not in turn condemn what the Republican party does. Including run someone as their nominee, who is in all senses of the word unfit for office, and who is now surprise! trying to do a speed run smash and grab of the US gov.
We should all feel free to tune out whatever we want. I do so all the time. BUT—I definitely agree the Rs are much worse than the Ds these days. I’ve been a Nevertrumper from day 1. That just doesn’t make me a D. If you believe criticizing the 2-party system is the same as “equating” the parties you’re just drinking the whatabout kool-aid and refusing to face the underlying issue. (IMO)
For a quick peak into the DEEP HYPOCRISY of the Democrats, here’s a thoughtful criticism from The Times: https://youtu.be/hNDgcjVGHIw?feature=shared
The thing I find fascinating in many of your comments is that you seem to think that people here aren’t aware of the Democrats’ shortcomings. We are, Ron. We are well-fucking-aware.
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I and everyone in the entire federal government got an email this morning inviting us ALL to resign. deferred resignation effective september 25. That this applies to everyone except USPS, immigration, and the military.
And that if we do not take this offer, and let it expire, we have no guarantee of employment after that date.
I have heard that it is written very similar to the twitter email form letter for resignation.
I don't know what to do. I have worked in research for the past 20+ years. Even if I leave the government (which I do not want to do), if all federal grants are paused and funding cut, I do not believe I can find a job that uses my skills and experience.
My daughter is graduating college and was intending on a career in research. I don't know if she will be able to do this, given the current situation.
I feel heartsick.
Sorry you have to go through this. I can imagine hundreds of thousands of employees and their families going through uncertainty these sick fucks are causing to the country. I think contagion will spread to other areas.
Hang in there and don't take any drastic actions. While there is much uncertainty there is some chance attention from this will switch to something else. After next mid terms Trump will be a lame duck, I think that is why they are all going full speed to dismantle government.
Found OMB deferred resignation letter they send out to feds.
Looks like is Elons is trying to do what he did to federal government what he did to twitter.
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Rob, normally I'd agree with you. But lately you are equating the Democratic and Republican party as equally egregious. One party is actively dismantling the guardrails of our constitution and norms and separation of powers of the three branches of gov, and one is not. All the talk about immigrants and transgender, well neither of those groups have hurt me one IOTA. While 45 executive orders are directly harming me. Including indirectly causing the death of my father at the beginning of COVID,when hospitals did not get the federal support that was there for pandemics, because Trump dismantled it. So yeah criticize Democrats for being ineffectual, lack of effective messaging. But honestly going to tune you out because you are being disingenuous. You do not in turn condemn what the Republican party does. Including run someone as their nominee, who is in all senses of the word unfit for office, and who is now surprise! trying to do a speed run smash and grab of the US gov.
We should all feel free to tune out whatever we want. I do so all the time. BUT—I definitely agree the Rs are much worse than the Ds these days. I’ve been a Nevertrumper from day 1. That just doesn’t make me a D. If you believe criticizing the 2-party system is the same as “equating” the parties you’re just drinking the whatabout kool-aid and refusing to face the underlying issue. (IMO)
For a quick peak into the DEEP HYPOCRISY of the Democrats, here’s a thoughtful criticism from The Times: https://youtu.be/hNDgcjVGHIw?feature=shared
The thing I find fascinating in many of your comments is that you seem to think that people here aren’t aware of the Democrats’ shortcomings. We are, Ron. We are well-fucking-aware.
Dogs barking at ghosts can be quite annoying but I haven't yet found a way to talk them out of their misery.