Author Topic: How much will non-vaxxing by GOP reduce the population of voting age republicans  (Read 87491 times)

GodlessCommie

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Party affiliation matters a huge amount with regards to vaccination - https://www.brookings.edu/blog/fixgov/2021/10/01/for-covid-19-vaccinations-party-affiliation-matters-more-than-race-and-ethnicity/

There are certainly some Democrats who are anti-vaccine, but this is a fringe opinion.  This is not a fringe opinion in the Republican party.

That's October 1st. Last century in Covid years. Back then the map of vaccination rate, for my state where I know how counties vote, looked like 2020 election map.

It doesn't anymore.

Democrats may not be loudly anti-vaccine, but they sure as hell are not all getting their shots.

Sibley

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I'm watching the map of my state on the NYTimes Covid map and there is a slight color wave that is visible spreading across the state north to south.
There's a new colour - black - on the map of infections in London, for areas with more than 1,600 infections per 100,000 in the last 7 days.  The worst number appears to be Dalston, Kingsland and De Beauvoir (just north-east of the City of London, by which I mean the business district not the whole metropolitan area) with 2,900.3.  That's about 1 in every 34 people confirmed as having a covid infection in the last 7 days.  I have cousins in the De Beauvoir area.

Oh my gosh. We're only at ~27 per 100K.

We're at 76 per 100K in Detroit/Wayne County, MI. That doesn't seem so bad, and yet we still have temporary FEMA staff at our local hospital to help with staff overwhelm. I'm dreading the post-Christmas wave. The county only has a 50% full vaccination rate. That's 850,000 people without full vaccination, many of whom will be packing homes and churches this weekend.

That sucks, Multnomah County OR is at 17/100K with 85% of adults fully vaccinated and a more or less enforced indoor mask mandate. I know I'm in that other thread saying that I trust my vaccine and I'm not particularly worried, but some of you live in a different place than I do.

Well crap. Just looked it up. My county - over 200 per 100k. I can't find vaxx rates, but the state as a whole is about 50%, and we're bluer, so a bit over that. And from what I can tell, the hospitals are on/off bypass.

Don't get sick or hurt in NWI.

Edit: Note and when I say over 200 per 100k, that's the best I got. It could be 2000 and they wouldn't tell us.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2021, 07:20:10 PM by Sibley »

PDXTabs

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I just realized this but I'm pretty sure that the NYT map is daily cases per 100k where as the comment from former player was weekly cases. I figured this out when I was digging through CDC data which is also reported weekly and had to make sense of it.

GuitarStv

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Party affiliation matters a huge amount with regards to vaccination - https://www.brookings.edu/blog/fixgov/2021/10/01/for-covid-19-vaccinations-party-affiliation-matters-more-than-race-and-ethnicity/

There are certainly some Democrats who are anti-vaccine, but this is a fringe opinion.  This is not a fringe opinion in the Republican party.

That's October 1st. Last century in Covid years. Back then the map of vaccination rate, for my state where I know how counties vote, looked like 2020 election map.

It doesn't anymore.

Can you show me the study that you're using to draw that conclusion?

The Republican party has made anti-vaccine sentiment part of their platform.  It's not fringe at all (https://www.statnews.com/2021/11/17/gop-opposition-to-vaccine-mandates-extends-far-beyond-covid-19/, https://www.npr.org/2021/12/06/1057344561/anti-vaccine-activists-political-conference-trump-republicans).  Political leaders openly refuse to vaccinate with no party backlash - https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/dec/21/sarah-palin-covid-vaccine-coronavirus.


Democrats may not be loudly anti-vaccine, but they sure as hell are not all getting their shots.

Yep, I did agree that there certainly are anti-vaccine Democrats.  But they're far fewer than the anti-vaccine Republicans based on every study and report I've read.

Abe

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Reviewing https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/us/covid-19-vaccine-doses.html the gap on a state-wide level is fairly narrow between the most and least vaccinated. Of course the WV datapoint is just cherry-picking (large uptick in vaccination after delta slammed the state), but in general the difference between low-vaccine and high-vaccine states is not great.

What is clear is that even relatively high vaccination rates of 70%+ are not enough to protect the unvaccinated from hospitalization. Many of the hardest-hit counties since the initial waves through the northeast are rural and GOP-leaning. This has not changed recently. It’s clear that there have been high losses on both sides of the aisle, for various reasons. It’s also pretty clear that much of the anti-vaccination rhetoric is driven by the GOP (though not all).
« Last Edit: December 22, 2021, 08:07:45 PM by Abe »

LennStar

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What is clear is that even relatively high vaccination rates of 70%+ are not enough to protect the unvaccinated from hospitalization.
Yes. Even for Delta it would have needed around 85% for herd immunity. But with Omicron - at least until there is a adjusted vaccine - there is no herd immunity. Maybe never will. As it looks now, it will be something everyone gets several times a year.

OtherJen

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I'm watching the map of my state on the NYTimes Covid map and there is a slight color wave that is visible spreading across the state north to south.
There's a new colour - black - on the map of infections in London, for areas with more than 1,600 infections per 100,000 in the last 7 days.  The worst number appears to be Dalston, Kingsland and De Beauvoir (just north-east of the City of London, by which I mean the business district not the whole metropolitan area) with 2,900.3.  That's about 1 in every 34 people confirmed as having a covid infection in the last 7 days.  I have cousins in the De Beauvoir area.

Oh my gosh. We're only at ~27 per 100K.

We're at 76 per 100K in Detroit/Wayne County, MI. That doesn't seem so bad, and yet we still have temporary FEMA staff at our local hospital to help with staff overwhelm. I'm dreading the post-Christmas wave. The county only has a 50% full vaccination rate. That's 850,000 people without full vaccination, many of whom will be packing homes and churches this weekend.

That sucks, Multnomah County OR is at 17/100K with 85% of adults fully vaccinated and a more or less enforced indoor mask mandate. I know I'm in that other thread saying that I trust my vaccine and I'm not particularly worried, but some of you live in a different place than I do.

Yes, there is a huge amount of variation. Mask wearing at the Meijer in a neighboring suburb earlier this week was higher than I've seen in months, yet still probably below 50%. No mandates. I'm not afraid for myself or my husband, as we're both in our mid-40s, healthy, and are vaxed and boosted. I'd be horrified to pass on COVID to someone less able to fight it off, and I'm extremely concerned about the burden on our local healthcare system.

neo von retorch

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In PA, it's mostly red majority counties with just over a dozen of the 67 voting for Biden in 2020.

The blue counties are largely in the 75%+ vaccinated camp for 18+ while the red are mostly 45-60%. One is 41%.

As many have said...
* I'm not so much worried about me (42) and spouse (37) as I am about an in-law with M.S., my parents, etc.
* I'm less worried about death than long-term effects
* I'm less worried about children getting sick than high transmission rates

The theme here is second-order effects.

Over and over again in forums and article comments, we see first-order effect arguments (low rate of death, children not getting sick, etc., some of which are selfish, e.g. I will be fine, why worry) from the anti-mask, anti-vaxx, and anti-mandate/restriction crowds.

(Of course, the counter-arguments include unintended consequence of concessions made to your government, and their increasing power and tyranny.) I wonder if there's something to explore with this line of thinking. Maybe after coffee?
« Last Edit: December 23, 2021, 06:51:12 AM by neo von retorch »

FIPurpose

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In PA, it's mostly red majority counties with just over a dozen of the 67 voting for Biden in 2020.

The blue counties are largely in the 75%+ vaccinated camp for 18+ while the red are mostly 45-60%. One is 41%.

As many have said...
* I'm not so much worried about me (42) and spouse (37) as I am about an in-law with M.S., my parents, etc.
* I'm less worried about death than long-term effects
* I'm less worried about children getting sick than high transmission rates

The theme here is second-order effects.

Over and over again in forums and article comments, we see first-order effect arguments (low rate of death, children not getting sick, etc., some of which are selfish, e.g. I will be fine, why worry) from the anti-mask, anti-vaxx, and anti-mandate/restriction crowds.

(Of course, the counter-arguments include unintended consequence of concessions made to your government, and their increasing power and tyranny.) I wonder if there's something to explore with this line of thinking. Maybe after coffee?

PA is one of those states that has been extremely close statewide a lot lately.

2016 Trump won by 45k votes
2016 Toomey won reelection by about 90k votes
2020 Biden won by 75k votes.
2020 PA House GOP won by 400k votes.

PA has had about 35k covid deaths. And by a lot of the stats presented on GOP v Dem deaths, that means that covid will be about a -10k swing against the GOP. It wouldn't have changed any of the outcomes above, but it does mean that the GOP in that state will have to work harder in order to win.

HPstache

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In PA, it's mostly red majority counties with just over a dozen of the 67 voting for Biden in 2020.

The blue counties are largely in the 75%+ vaccinated camp for 18+ while the red are mostly 45-60%. One is 41%.

As many have said...
* I'm not so much worried about me (42) and spouse (37) as I am about an in-law with M.S., my parents, etc.
* I'm less worried about death than long-term effects
* I'm less worried about children getting sick than high transmission rates

The theme here is second-order effects.

Over and over again in forums and article comments, we see first-order effect arguments (low rate of death, children not getting sick, etc., some of which are selfish, e.g. I will be fine, why worry) from the anti-mask, anti-vaxx, and anti-mandate/restriction crowds.

(Of course, the counter-arguments include unintended consequence of concessions made to your government, and their increasing power and tyranny.) I wonder if there's something to explore with this line of thinking. Maybe after coffee?

PA is one of those states that has been extremely close statewide a lot lately.

2016 Trump won by 45k votes
2016 Toomey won reelection by about 90k votes
2020 Biden won by 75k votes.
2020 PA House GOP won by 400k votes.

PA has had about 35k covid deaths. And by a lot of the stats presented on GOP v Dem deaths, that means that covid will be about a -10k swing against the GOP. It wouldn't have changed any of the outcomes above, but it does mean that the GOP in that state will have to work harder in order to win.

Is this not assuming that the deaths happened linearly through time?  I would say the deaths were highly concentrated in the high population more blue areas in the early stages of covid and pre-vaccine.  The Rep vs. Dem death rate you are referring to I believe is a post-vaccine stat.

FIPurpose

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In PA, it's mostly red majority counties with just over a dozen of the 67 voting for Biden in 2020.

The blue counties are largely in the 75%+ vaccinated camp for 18+ while the red are mostly 45-60%. One is 41%.

As many have said...
* I'm not so much worried about me (42) and spouse (37) as I am about an in-law with M.S., my parents, etc.
* I'm less worried about death than long-term effects
* I'm less worried about children getting sick than high transmission rates

The theme here is second-order effects.

Over and over again in forums and article comments, we see first-order effect arguments (low rate of death, children not getting sick, etc., some of which are selfish, e.g. I will be fine, why worry) from the anti-mask, anti-vaxx, and anti-mandate/restriction crowds.

(Of course, the counter-arguments include unintended consequence of concessions made to your government, and their increasing power and tyranny.) I wonder if there's something to explore with this line of thinking. Maybe after coffee?

PA is one of those states that has been extremely close statewide a lot lately.

2016 Trump won by 45k votes
2016 Toomey won reelection by about 90k votes
2020 Biden won by 75k votes.
2020 PA House GOP won by 400k votes.

PA has had about 35k covid deaths. And by a lot of the stats presented on GOP v Dem deaths, that means that covid will be about a -10k swing against the GOP. It wouldn't have changed any of the outcomes above, but it does mean that the GOP in that state will have to work harder in order to win.

Is this not assuming that the deaths happened linearly through time?  I would say the deaths were highly concentrated in the high population more blue areas in the early stages of covid and pre-vaccine.  The Rep vs. Dem death rate you are referring to I believe is a post-vaccine stat.

You can look up the stats for deaths at any point in time. PA covid deaths were about 9k pre 2020 election.

But even then, there's only 1 county in PA that went 80/20 blue, the other blue counties are more like 60/40 counties. So it's not as big of a disparity before the vaccine as now.

Abe

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I thought it’d be a good idea to clarify what the UK data shows on omicron’s virulence relative to delta. Estimated vary from 30-70% risk of hospitalization, which would put in line with pre-Delta variants. However, omicron is substantially more infectious than delta. Infection risk in a population is an exponential growth function, while hospitalization risk is linear with regard to infection (you can spread the virus to others, you can’t spread relative decrease in risk of hospitalization). Those studies further suggest (with limited data) that deaths after hospitalization are similar between the two strains. This latter point remains to be determined as there are many factors that are risks for death, and vary substantially between the US and UK (even more so when comparing to South Africa).

What does this mean for death and hospitalization rates? About 5% of people with covid get hospitalized based on data from the delta surge. About 1% die. Assuming both these risks are halved with omicron and that lack of booster puts one at similar risk of omicron as an unvaccinated person has for delta (again based on UK data), we have only a 20-30% booster rate in the US, leaving 200m x 2.5% = 5m hospitalized and 200 x 0.5% = 1m at risk of death. Will we reach this level? Probably not, but given how easily spread omicron is and how little preparation we are doing as a society, I think we will come close.

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/covid-data/covidview/index.html
« Last Edit: December 23, 2021, 08:50:23 PM by Abe »

HPstache

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I thought it’d be a good idea to clarify what the UK data shows on omicron’s virulence relative to delta. Estimated vary from 30-70% risk of hospitalization, which would put in line with pre-Delta variants. However, omicron is substantially more infectious than delta. Infection risk in a population is an exponential growth function, while hospitalization risk is linear with regard to infection (you can spread the virus to others, you can’t spread relative decrease in risk of hospitalization). Those studies further suggest (with limited data) that deaths after hospitalization are similar between the two strains. This latter point remains to be determined as there are many factors that are risks for death, and vary substantially between the US and UK (even more so when comparing to South Africa).

What does this mean for death and hospitalization rates? About 5% of people with covid get hospitalized based on data from the delta surge. About 1% die. Assuming both these risks are halved with omicron and that lack of booster puts one at similar risk of omicron as an unvaccinated person has for delta (again based on UK data), we have only a 20-30% booster rate in the US, leaving 200m x 2.5% = 5m hospitalized and 200 x 0.5% = 1m at risk of death. Will we reach this level? Probably not, but given how easily spread omicron is and how little preparation we are doing as a society, I think we will come close.

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/covid-data/covidview/index.html

I would bet the under.

jinga nation

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45 got boos for telling his faithful to get jabs, and he doubled down on it, claiming he created 3 vaccines (under Operation Warp Speed, he can take the credit if it means people get vaxxed). He's probably realized the deaths are going to affect outcomes in mid-term and prezzie elections, or at least someone on his team has realized and has convinced him to spread the message.

(popcorn n beer on this. and some groundnuts. and some pepitos and sunflower seeds. gosh darn it, i'm running out of snacks watching this latest soap opera dram unfold.)

nereo

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To reiterate a sentiment expressed several pages ago on this thread…

I don’t think it will be the loss (death) of loyal voters of one particular party which will significantly impact future elections.  Rather, it will be the perception of which ‘side’ ultimately handled the pandemic better.

On the GOP side I think it will be about how many ‘leaning’ and independent voters get utterly turned off by the anti-vaxx position the mainstream Republicans have supported.

On the Dem side it will be how many people think this administration (as well as D-Governors) failed to manage the pandemic reasonably well (and better than the alternative).

KarefulKactus15

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45 got boos for telling his faithful to get jabs, and he doubled down on it, claiming he created 3 vaccines (under Operation Warp Speed, he can take the credit if it means people get vaxxed). He's probably realized the deaths are going to affect outcomes in mid-term and prezzie elections, or at least someone on his team has realized and has convinced him to spread the message.

(popcorn n beer on this. and some groundnuts. and some pepitos and sunflower seeds. gosh darn it, i'm running out of snacks watching this latest soap opera dram unfold.)

I saw this.  I think this is the strongest and most supportive stance he's taken.   Day late and a dollar short.

I wonder what my anti vax family think about that. 45 is their religious leader.

Villanelle

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45 got boos for telling his faithful to get jabs, and he doubled down on it, claiming he created 3 vaccines (under Operation Warp Speed, he can take the credit if it means people get vaxxed). He's probably realized the deaths are going to affect outcomes in mid-term and prezzie elections, or at least someone on his team has realized and has convinced him to spread the message.

(popcorn n beer on this. and some groundnuts. and some pepitos and sunflower seeds. gosh darn it, i'm running out of snacks watching this latest soap opera dram unfold.)

I saw this.  I think this is the strongest and most supportive stance he's taken.   Day late and a dollar short.

I wonder what my anti vax family think about that. 45 is their religious leader.

One common take seems to be similar to what people told themselves when he sorta, kinda denounced white suprematists after supporting them, or all those similar instances.  Basically, that he was clear with what he said and he meant every word of it.  But then he sort of backed off a little bit, with a tacit wink to his supporters, because it is what an oppressed person (which they feel anyone not wanting to get vaccinated is) does to survive.  IOW, he said what he meant, then retreated a bit from that publicly in order to survive, basically. 

ChpBstrd

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45 got boos for telling his faithful to get jabs, and he doubled down on it, claiming he created 3 vaccines (under Operation Warp Speed, he can take the credit if it means people get vaxxed). He's probably realized the deaths are going to affect outcomes in mid-term and prezzie elections, or at least someone on his team has realized and has convinced him to spread the message.

(popcorn n beer on this. and some groundnuts. and some pepitos and sunflower seeds. gosh darn it, i'm running out of snacks watching this latest soap opera dram unfold.)

I saw this.  I think this is the strongest and most supportive stance he's taken.   Day late and a dollar short.

I wonder what my anti vax family think about that. 45 is their religious leader.

One common take seems to be similar to what people told themselves when he sorta, kinda denounced white suprematists after supporting them, or all those similar instances.  Basically, that he was clear with what he said and he meant every word of it.  But then he sort of backed off a little bit, with a tacit wink to his supporters, because it is what an oppressed person (which they feel anyone not wanting to get vaccinated is) does to survive.  IOW, he said what he meant, then retreated a bit from that publicly in order to survive, basically.

And if he was serious about supporting vaccines, he would be saying it a lot more than he is, and with a lot more emphasis.

Abe

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45 got boos for telling his faithful to get jabs, and he doubled down on it, claiming he created 3 vaccines (under Operation Warp Speed, he can take the credit if it means people get vaxxed). He's probably realized the deaths are going to affect outcomes in mid-term and prezzie elections, or at least someone on his team has realized and has convinced him to spread the message.

(popcorn n beer on this. and some groundnuts. and some pepitos and sunflower seeds. gosh darn it, i'm running out of snacks watching this latest soap opera dram unfold.)

I saw this.  I think this is the strongest and most supportive stance he's taken.   Day late and a dollar short.

I wonder what my anti vax family think about that. 45 is their religious leader.

One common take seems to be similar to what people told themselves when he sorta, kinda denounced white suprematists after supporting them, or all those similar instances.  Basically, that he was clear with what he said and he meant every word of it.  But then he sort of backed off a little bit, with a tacit wink to his supporters, because it is what an oppressed person (which they feel anyone not wanting to get vaccinated is) does to survive.  IOW, he said what he meant, then retreated a bit from that publicly in order to survive, basically.

And if he was serious about supporting vaccines, he would be saying it a lot more than he is, and with a lot more emphasis.

Yeah he and the rest of the GOP leadership don’t really believe in anything other than exploiting their gullible base for their own personal profit.  I’m sure some think thank told him to say something about vaccines for some political reason. Doubt compassion for their base’s suffering was a factor.

GodlessCommie

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To reiterate a sentiment expressed several pages ago on this thread…

I don’t think it will be the loss (death) of loyal voters of one particular party which will significantly impact future elections.  Rather, it will be the perception of which ‘side’ ultimately handled the pandemic better.

On the GOP side I think it will be about how many ‘leaning’ and independent voters get utterly turned off by the anti-vaxx position the mainstream Republicans have supported.

On the Dem side it will be how many people think this administration (as well as D-Governors) failed to manage the pandemic reasonably well (and better than the alternative).

This is 100% true. And, as Virginia Gov. election shows, so far Republicans have an advantage.

Leaning and independent voters do not associate the generic Republican brand with anti-vaxxers. They do judge Democratic administrations by the actual state of affairs in regards to Covid.

FIPurpose

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To reiterate a sentiment expressed several pages ago on this thread…

I don’t think it will be the loss (death) of loyal voters of one particular party which will significantly impact future elections.  Rather, it will be the perception of which ‘side’ ultimately handled the pandemic better.

On the GOP side I think it will be about how many ‘leaning’ and independent voters get utterly turned off by the anti-vaxx position the mainstream Republicans have supported.

On the Dem side it will be how many people think this administration (as well as D-Governors) failed to manage the pandemic reasonably well (and better than the alternative).

This is 100% true. And, as Virginia Gov. election shows, so far Republicans have an advantage.

Leaning and independent voters do not associate the generic Republican brand with anti-vaxxers. They do judge Democratic administrations by the actual state of affairs in regards to Covid.

The GOP have a much better messaging campaign. Even when the GOP are in complete control they will continue to blame Dems for whatever is going wrong. Trump did this through conspiracy talk that even though he was the president there were all these secret Democratic bureaucrats that actually control everything the government does. And that there are secret democrats in the GOP who are posers.

It's the same messaging strategy of saying that Jan 6 were actually undercover ops.

A lot of normies may not believe that exact story, but they end up coming away with a "general vibe" that Dems were the ones in charge (even if they weren't or it was a split government).

Even looking back at past administrations, people tend to just look at who the president is rather than the shape of congress. It seems more often than not, the bills that people hate the most are compromise bills between opposing branches of different parties. But the president's party is the one that receives all the blame.

RetiredAt63

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Even looking back at past administrations, people tend to just look at who the president is rather than the shape of congress. It seems more often than not, the bills that people hate the most are compromise bills between opposing branches of different parties. But the president's party is the one that receives all the blame.

This makes the Parliamentary system look so good!  When we hate something we know exactly who to blame!  Especially in a majority government situation.  Of course in a minority government situation we get to blame TWO parties!     ;-)

GodlessCommie

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The GOP have a much better messaging campaign. Even when the GOP are in complete control they will continue to blame Dems for whatever is going wrong. Trump did this through conspiracy talk that even though he was the president there were all these secret Democratic bureaucrats that actually control everything the government does. And that there are secret democrats in the GOP who are posers.

Yeah, messaging is easier when your message is not limited to even remotely faithful description of reality.

KarefulKactus15

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I've lost so much respect for many of my fellow Americans this year. I'm finding out that many people do not have critical thinking skills.

ixtap

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I've lost so much respect for many of my fellow Americans this year. I'm finding out that many people do not have critical thinking skills.

If it isn't 100% effective, we shouldn't try it!

Call it a shot, not a vaccine, like the flu shot!


LennStar

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No, call it the sure fire shot!

This makes the Parliamentary system look so good!  When we hate something we know exactly who to blame!  Especially in a majority government situation.  Of course in a minority government situation we get to blame TWO parties!     ;-)
We Germans can even blame 3 government parties! Though it's easier to just use the smallest one, FDP (the libertarians so to speak). That's generally correct.
They are always going in and out of governments and parliaments because the people keep forgetting... and like to hear "lower taxes!"

Poundwise

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Dropping in to the discussion with my usual non sequitur to share this link which address the original question of the thread. Haven't checked over the graphics but they are quite striking if true.
https://acasignups.net/21/11/17/red-shift-how-trumps-attempt-let-covid-19-destroy-blue-america-reversed-itself-animated

Edit to add another page with a less controversial title:
https://acasignups.net/21/12/27/weekly-update-covid19-casedeath-rates-county-partisan-lean-vaccination-rate
« Last Edit: December 29, 2021, 11:35:14 AM by Poundwise »

Abe

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Dropping in to the discussion with my usual non sequitur to share this link which address the original question of the thread. Haven't checked over the graphics but they are quite striking if true.
https://acasignups.net/21/11/17/red-shift-how-trumps-attempt-let-covid-19-destroy-blue-america-reversed-itself-animated

Edit to add another page with a less controversial title:
https://acasignups.net/21/12/27/weekly-update-covid19-casedeath-rates-county-partisan-lean-vaccination-rate

Thanks for the link. The NY Times looked at this a few months ago and found similar results at that time. We will see what the effect of Omicron will be.

ChpBstrd

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Dropping in to the discussion with my usual non sequitur to share this link which address the original question of the thread. Haven't checked over the graphics but they are quite striking if true.
https://acasignups.net/21/11/17/red-shift-how-trumps-attempt-let-covid-19-destroy-blue-america-reversed-itself-animated

Edit to add another page with a less controversial title:
https://acasignups.net/21/12/27/weekly-update-covid19-casedeath-rates-county-partisan-lean-vaccination-rate

This basically answers the question. Great find @Poundwise .

Ironically though, it makes little difference politically, due to the Electoral College. That is unless urban liberals move into the recently-vacated and more-affordable houses of COVID victims in purple areas on the peripheries of urban areas, now that many of them can work from home.

nereo

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Dropping in to the discussion with my usual non sequitur to share this link which address the original question of the thread. Haven't checked over the graphics but they are quite striking if true.
https://acasignups.net/21/11/17/red-shift-how-trumps-attempt-let-covid-19-destroy-blue-america-reversed-itself-animated

Edit to add another page with a less controversial title:
https://acasignups.net/21/12/27/weekly-update-covid19-casedeath-rates-county-partisan-lean-vaccination-rate

This basically answers the question. Great find @Poundwise .

Ironically though, it makes little difference politically, due to the Electoral College. That is unless urban liberals move into the recently-vacated and more-affordable houses of COVID victims in purple areas on the peripheries of urban areas, now that many of them can work from home.

Who knows… but this describes exactly what is happening in my red county; there has been a record number of out-of-state sales this year (by a lot) and the majority of out-of-state buyers are from two nearby very blue states.

sui generis

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Dropping in to the discussion with my usual non sequitur to share this link which address the original question of the thread. Haven't checked over the graphics but they are quite striking if true.
https://acasignups.net/21/11/17/red-shift-how-trumps-attempt-let-covid-19-destroy-blue-america-reversed-itself-animated

Edit to add another page with a less controversial title:
https://acasignups.net/21/12/27/weekly-update-covid19-casedeath-rates-county-partisan-lean-vaccination-rate

This basically answers the question. Great find @Poundwise .

Ironically though, it makes little difference politically, due to the Electoral College. That is unless urban liberals move into the recently-vacated and more-affordable houses of COVID victims in purple areas on the peripheries of urban areas, now that many of them can work from home.

Who knows… but this describes exactly what is happening in my red county; there has been a record number of out-of-state sales this year (by a lot) and the majority of out-of-state buyers are from two nearby very blue states.

It would be great if COVID helped correct the georgraphic sorting that has been a political disaster.  Not just the in the electoral college, but the House (and state leg) due to recent gerrymandered redistricting that will be in effect for the next decade.  Those districts will require blue people to actually move into them, not just to depopulate the red residents, to lose the power of gerrymandering.  And of course the Senate's long-standing rural bias that wasn't as decisive before our current political polarization and geographic sorting.

HPstache

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Dropping in to the discussion with my usual non sequitur to share this link which address the original question of the thread. Haven't checked over the graphics but they are quite striking if true.
https://acasignups.net/21/11/17/red-shift-how-trumps-attempt-let-covid-19-destroy-blue-america-reversed-itself-animated

Edit to add another page with a less controversial title:
https://acasignups.net/21/12/27/weekly-update-covid19-casedeath-rates-county-partisan-lean-vaccination-rate

This kind of confirms what I've said a few times throughout the thread, my feel was that Covid deaths were much higher in blue areas up until the vaccine started rolling out.  The majority of death so far happened before the vaccine and improvements to treatment... so I'm not convinced that there is going to be some sort of political win because so many more republican voters died from Covid than Democrats... though there is still a lifetime to figure that one out.  I will also say that it would be nice if someone could take the data combine it all and guess what the total death was for each voting party... from what I can tell all that info is there. 

I feel like this article also very much explains why red areas did not take seriously/thought people were making shit up for the longest time (but does not explain why some still do think that).

GodlessCommie

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I will also say that it would be nice if someone could take the data combine it all and guess what the total death was for each voting party... from what I can tell all that info is there. 

There are all sorts of scores that both parties' data crunchers assign to voters trying to predict who is a D and who is an R .They are more reliable than nothing, but far from 100% reliable.  This data is not public. If someone has a really burning desire, they can buy it - if they can convince a selling organization that it would advance the cause. Like partisan pollsters, they only do business with like-minded entities.

Then there is party registration data (AKA voter file). It's also not 100% reliable in a sense that not everyone bothers to change party registration when they decide to no longer vote with a party. Rules as to who can get it differ by state. All provide lists to parties, but not all to the public - or they may give public access to a paper copy in an election office. Also, not all states have party registration data, those who don't simply register a voter to vote at a certain address.

You can get additional insights from voter files on primary elections, assuming a state makes it public (not all do). Assumption here is that very few people vote in another party's election; and the biggest problem is that not that many people vote in primaries.

TL;DR: not that easy for a hobbyist, if possible at all.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2021, 03:20:19 PM by GodlessCommie »

FIPurpose

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I saw this data out of the census bureau recently on covid 19 migration: https://www.census.gov/library/visualizations/2021/comm/how-does-your-state-compare.html?cid=how-does-your-compare

What this basically says is that there has been a large exit from California, New York, and Illinois and large influxes to Texas and Florida in the past year.

Basically, California and New York have each lost a couple hundred thousand people (lucky for New York, they would be down another EV now if the census were held this year) and Texas and Florida have both gained another couple hundred thousand people. I don't know how much of the demographics we can say are red vs blue, but I'd think that it could very well be a net positive to democrats in Texas and Florida about +20-30k. It's hard to say for sure though.

We have been thinking about moving to Ohio to find reasonable housing prices, so this data helps support that notion. It's good to know though that even New York or Mass might have plenty of property for sale. It's really hard to even find houses for sale in places where everyone is moving to.

ChpBstrd

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I saw this data out of the census bureau recently on covid 19 migration: https://www.census.gov/library/visualizations/2021/comm/how-does-your-state-compare.html?cid=how-does-your-compare

What this basically says is that there has been a large exit from California, New York, and Illinois and large influxes to Texas and Florida in the past year.

Basically, California and New York have each lost a couple hundred thousand people (lucky for New York, they would be down another EV now if the census were held this year) and Texas and Florida have both gained another couple hundred thousand people. I don't know how much of the demographics we can say are red vs blue, but I'd think that it could very well be a net positive to democrats in Texas and Florida about +20-30k. It's hard to say for sure though.

We have been thinking about moving to Ohio to find reasonable housing prices, so this data helps support that notion. It's good to know though that even New York or Mass might have plenty of property for sale. It's really hard to even find houses for sale in places where everyone is moving to.

I'm betting the majority of people moving to TX and FL are Republicans. Why else move to a place where schools are being prohibited from making kids wear masks? They're chasing low taxes, cheap McMansions, and the feeling of freedom that comes from directly inhaling the air inside WalMart.

FIPurpose

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I saw this data out of the census bureau recently on covid 19 migration: https://www.census.gov/library/visualizations/2021/comm/how-does-your-state-compare.html?cid=how-does-your-compare

What this basically says is that there has been a large exit from California, New York, and Illinois and large influxes to Texas and Florida in the past year.

Basically, California and New York have each lost a couple hundred thousand people (lucky for New York, they would be down another EV now if the census were held this year) and Texas and Florida have both gained another couple hundred thousand people. I don't know how much of the demographics we can say are red vs blue, but I'd think that it could very well be a net positive to democrats in Texas and Florida about +20-30k. It's hard to say for sure though.

We have been thinking about moving to Ohio to find reasonable housing prices, so this data helps support that notion. It's good to know though that even New York or Mass might have plenty of property for sale. It's really hard to even find houses for sale in places where everyone is moving to.

I'm betting the majority of people moving to TX and FL are Republicans. Why else move to a place where schools are being prohibited from making kids wear masks? They're chasing low taxes, cheap McMansions, and the feeling of freedom that comes from directly inhaling the air inside WalMart.

Or they're the kids of the 80-90's that moved to the coasts, found a job, and weren't inundated with Rush Limbaugh for 3 decades that now see the opportunity to move back without losing out on their high salary job.

Texas really isn't that low tax of a state. So I don't buy people moving for that reason. But cheap McMansions fit that mold at least. But I don't see why that would be exclusively the domain of GOP voters. I'm generally a blue voter more than not and even I'm looking for a cheaper place to live. (Though the trade off still exists, it's easier to find high paying jobs in the expensive cities) SFH's should be 300-500k not 800-1.2MM.

There's also plenty of liberal cities in both Texas and Florida that can attract people that care a lot about their political environments, it's not like any state is one giant monolith. I think fastest growing areas of Texas are Austin and Dallas, not exactly GOP bastions.

Psychstache

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I saw this data out of the census bureau recently on covid 19 migration: https://www.census.gov/library/visualizations/2021/comm/how-does-your-state-compare.html?cid=how-does-your-compare

What this basically says is that there has been a large exit from California, New York, and Illinois and large influxes to Texas and Florida in the past year.

Basically, California and New York have each lost a couple hundred thousand people (lucky for New York, they would be down another EV now if the census were held this year) and Texas and Florida have both gained another couple hundred thousand people. I don't know how much of the demographics we can say are red vs blue, but I'd think that it could very well be a net positive to democrats in Texas and Florida about +20-30k. It's hard to say for sure though.

We have been thinking about moving to Ohio to find reasonable housing prices, so this data helps support that notion. It's good to know though that even New York or Mass might have plenty of property for sale. It's really hard to even find houses for sale in places where everyone is moving to.

I'm betting the majority of people moving to TX and FL are Republicans. Why else move to a place where schools are being prohibited from making kids wear masks? They're chasing low taxes, cheap McMansions, and the feeling of freedom that comes from directly inhaling the air inside WalMart.

Interesting data point, but while this is an issue, some are being persuaded to move because the schools are open and parents want their kids off of remote learning. There are families that were on a timeline to be transferred for Toyota and State Farm that have moved up their transfer request to come here because schools are still closed where they live now and they/their kids want to be in person.

gooki

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Quote
Or they're the kids of the 80-90's that moved to the coasts, found a job, and weren't inundated with Rush Limbaugh for 3 decades that now see the opportunity to move back without losing out on their high salary job.

Working in tech where our head office is in New York, I can confirm that was the main reason some staff relocated to southern states. An opportunity to move to their home state while retaining their lucrative employment.

Villanelle

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From July 2020 to July 2021, Arizona saw the third most population increase (after Texas and Florida).  I suspect many (or most) of those people are from CA.  They gained about 100,000 people, and likely more than that if you add the rest of 2021.  Now, not all people from CA (or the other states that lost people to migration) are reliably Dem, but it stands to reason many are.  (I'd guess that people on the less liberal side are more likely to move to AZ than those hard core liberals, but still....) 

I think Arizona matters a lot more than Texas when looking at how migration and deaths can change elections.  Trump won Texas by over 600,000 voters, so it would take a *lot* of change to turn Texas blue.  But the delta in Arizona was only about 10,000 (in favor of Biden), so an influx of 70,000 Ds and 30,000 Rs (for example) is enough to make a significant difference in the voting pattern of the state, making it more reliably Blue.  And if you then add in more Red Covid deaths than blue, those numbers can be even more significant.  Suddenly, a veeery close race (10,000 votes) becomes a more comfortable lead of ~60,000-70,000 votes. 

Florida went to Trump by about 370,000 votes.  That's less than the difference in Texas but still a lot of votes.  It is also approximately the same number of people who have moved to Florida n the last year and a half.  Even if most of those voters are reliably democratic, it still wouldn't be enough to swing Texas, assuming most people continue to vote the same way and in the same numbers.  Now, if a significant number of Florida Covid deaths were Republicans, it might start to get close.  So the difference doesn't seem as meaningful as in Arizona, but it does start to make a replica of 2019 into a very tight race.  And unlike in AZ, this difference is moving toward the losing side, instead of just increasing the numerical lead. 

For me, it is most interesting to look at the numbers for both the migration and the Covid death by party affiliation in the swing states.  There aren't great numbers, because even within a red or blue county, we don't know that an individual is left or right leaning.  But I feel fairly safe making some assumptions.  And in states where things tend to be close, if there was a lot of immigration (presumably from more-likely-to-lean-liberal people) and a large differential in Republican deaths vs. Democratic deaths, that could absolutely have very real effects in elections. 
I saw this data out of the census bureau recently on covid 19 migration: https://www.census.gov/library/visualizations/2021/comm/how-does-your-state-compare.html?cid=how-does-your-compare

What this basically says is that there has been a large exit from California, New York, and Illinois and large influxes to Texas and Florida in the past year.

Basically, California and New York have each lost a couple hundred thousand people (lucky for New York, they would be down another EV now if the census were held this year) and Texas and Florida have both gained another couple hundred thousand people. I don't know how much of the demographics we can say are red vs blue, but I'd think that it could very well be a net positive to democrats in Texas and Florida about +20-30k. It's hard to say for sure though.

We have been thinking about moving to Ohio to find reasonable housing prices, so this data helps support that notion. It's good to know though that even New York or Mass might have plenty of property for sale. It's really hard to even find houses for sale in places where everyone is moving to.

I'm betting the majority of people moving to TX and FL are Republicans. Why else move to a place where schools are being prohibited from making kids wear masks? They're chasing low taxes, cheap McMansions, and the feeling of freedom that comes from directly inhaling the air inside WalMart.

I mostly grew up in CA and most of my family and friends still live there.  Those that have moved (or seem to be strongly considering moving) are generally not the most liberal among the bunch, but most aren't moving because they are happy about kids not wearing masks and a chicken in every pot and a gun in every gun rack.  There are a few of those, but most seem to be fairly moderate, politically, but wanting to get ahead financially and willing to tolerate those policies to get there. 

In fact, this is a conversation I've had with an old friend who is really, really wanting to leave CA and plans to as soon as her partner's son graduates from high school.  She runs her own niche consulting business and has contacts in Oklahoma.  I've gently warned her, several times, that she should think long and hard before making that move.  She hates that she can't afford a home in SoCal.  She has also lived in SoCal most of her life and I don't get the sense she understands just how difficult it can be living in a place with a very, very different culture.  She is pretty moderate, especially for CA, but I still think she might struggle moving to a very very conservative state.  Her motivations for moving have very little to do with culture, and I'm afraid she's not paying enough attention to that element. 
« Last Edit: December 30, 2021, 01:46:39 PM by Villanelle »

Travis

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I mostly grew up in CA and most of my family and friends still live there.  Those that have moved (or seem to be strongly considering moving) are generally not the most liberal among the bunch, but most aren't moving because they are happy about kids not wearing masks and a chicken in every pot and a gun in every gun rack.  There are a few of those, but most seem to be fairly moderate, politically, but wanting to get ahead financially and willing to tolerate those policies to get there. 

In fact, this is a conversation I've had with an old friend who is really, really wanting to leave CA and plans to as soon as her partner's son graduates from high school.  She runs her own niche consulting business and has contacts in Oklahoma.  I've gently warned her, several times, that she should think long and hard before making that move.  She hates that she can't afford a home in SoCal.  She has also lived in SoCal most of her life and I don't get the sense she understands just how difficult it can be living in a place with a very, very different culture.  She is pretty moderate, especially for CA, but I still think she might struggle moving to a very very conservative state.  Her motivations for moving have very little to do with culture, and I'm afraid she's not paying enough attention to that element.

I'm also a child of CA, and the state has been hemorrhaging mid-high income residents for years of both parties. CA can be an expensive and politically chaotic place to live. Even before the pandemic, the cost of living was going up well above the national average pushing many of my childhood friends out of state. It was getting too expensive for some liberal friends, and my conservative friends wanted to find a safe place away from all the liberals.  If the emigration went up a notch in the last year, it was probably by people who already had their eye on the exit and something about COVID pushed them over the decision point. 

Abe

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I mostly grew up in CA and most of my family and friends still live there.  Those that have moved (or seem to be strongly considering moving) are generally not the most liberal among the bunch, but most aren't moving because they are happy about kids not wearing masks and a chicken in every pot and a gun in every gun rack.  There are a few of those, but most seem to be fairly moderate, politically, but wanting to get ahead financially and willing to tolerate those policies to get there. 

In fact, this is a conversation I've had with an old friend who is really, really wanting to leave CA and plans to as soon as her partner's son graduates from high school.  She runs her own niche consulting business and has contacts in Oklahoma.  I've gently warned her, several times, that she should think long and hard before making that move.  She hates that she can't afford a home in SoCal.  She has also lived in SoCal most of her life and I don't get the sense she understands just how difficult it can be living in a place with a very, very different culture.  She is pretty moderate, especially for CA, but I still think she might struggle moving to a very very conservative state.  Her motivations for moving have very little to do with culture, and I'm afraid she's not paying enough attention to that element.

I'm also a child of CA, and the state has been hemorrhaging mid-high income residents for years of both parties. CA can be an expensive and politically chaotic place to live. Even before the pandemic, the cost of living was going up well above the national average pushing many of my childhood friends out of state. It was getting too expensive for some liberal friends, and my conservative friends wanted to find a safe place away from all the liberals.  If the emigration went up a notch in the last year, it was probably by people who already had their eye on the exit and something about COVID pushed them over the decision point.

I agree. Like many, I left California reluctantly because of job opportunities and cost of housing. Honestly if a surgeon gets queasy about housing costs, it's a huge problem.

GodlessCommie

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I recall Ted Cruz saying at a fundraiser than people there should thank California for keeping Texas red. His campaign figured transplants from CA are to the right of natives of TX.

Another aspect: move for work or for retirement. Former favors D, latter helps R.

Sibley

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Re movement out of CA, some may be moving in part because of the wildfire risk. I didn't leave CA because of that, but I was certainly happy to leave the smoke behind. And that was before the last couple of years with such terrible fires.

mm1970

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Of all the people I know who moved to Texas from California, only one is to the "right" of native Texans.  Mostly, they are liberal but want to buy a house.

I know that we are losing overall population here in CA, but my local community is gaining people - from elsewhere in CA, but also a lot are coming in from NY, NJ, Chicago, and even some Boston...

sui generis

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I know that we are losing overall population here in CA, but my local community is gaining people - from elsewhere in CA, but also a lot are coming in from NY, NJ, Chicago, and even some Boston...

Same here.  On NextDoor I see a lot of people expressing dismay with our area and CA as a whole and saying something to the effect of "we'll see how they like it when I take my tax dollars elsewhere!"  And then they sell their house and there's a bidding war and it sells for $250k or more over asking and I'm sure they are very happy with all that money, but they probably didn't notice that not only is no one upset that they are taking their tax dollars elsewhere, but now the government is getting MORE tax dollars directly due to their move, so they didn't accomplish their desire at all. 

So while I know it's a fact that there is a net loss in population in CA, I really should look up where those net losses are occurring because it sure feels like there are still about 10 people vying for every available housing unit.

To the extent it's all still trickling down, ok, I'll try to be patient, but I guess I am sitting here weirdly hoping my state becomes a lot more reviled than it already is.  And it's hard to imagine people hating CA more than they already do!  But I do believe our political project, not to mention many other things, would benefit from a better geographic dispersement.  People should be able to have good jobs everywhere and enjoy good food, cultural opportunities and neighbors no matter where they live.  To the extent the perception or reality has been that you have to be in just a handful of places to live the good life, it's been really damaging on both sides. 

I wish there was a way to accomplish this without making people totally hate CA completely in order to give up and leave (and BTW, I have been hearing about how poorly received my fellow Californians are in all these other places when they arrive all my life - used to be OR, then TX and MT, now ID and I guess pretty soon like ND if not already?) but it does seem like that's the only way this thing is (partially?) being accomplished.

Abe

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Of all the people I know who moved to Texas from California, only one is to the "right" of native Texans.  Mostly, they are liberal but want to buy a house.

I know that we are losing overall population here in CA, but my local community is gaining people - from elsewhere in CA, but also a lot are coming in from NY, NJ, Chicago, and even some Boston...

That'd be me (came for a job rather than house, but same general idea). Most people who are "right-wing" in CA find they are actually center-right at most in Texas.

gentmach

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I'm in the UK, but my dad is becoming more and more of an anti-vaxxer on the matter of covid by the week. It's gotten to the point where I can't believe he genuinely thinks the stuff he says lately... he told me the other day that I'm more likely to die of the vaccine than of covid and that 50000 people in the US died of the vaccine but they covered it up... genuinely I don't know where he heard this clown logic. I have had both my vaccines and plan to get the booster as soon as it's been extended to my age group.

At least we managed to get him to have his first jab back in the summer, before he was so sceptical. He never got his second jab, though.

I think the problem is the YouTube algorithm. He's always been right-wing (UK edition), but it's only since he discovered YouTube about 3 years ago and started listening to right wing US youtubers all the time that he's got steadily more and more wild in his ideas. He used to be relatively sensible. I think he must click on the YouTube recommendations a lot and never listen to any counterbalancing stuff that would take him out of the bubble.

Unfortunately, once he's made up his mind on a topic, he doesn't really listen to me any more. If I suggest that maybe some of these people he's listening to online might not be accurate, he'll just laugh at me and call me stupid, probably.

Peter McCullough (I'm paraphrasing here) points to the VAERS system which has 9,000 recorded deaths from the vaccine. It is generally accepted that what VAERS records is under estimated by a factor of 5. So that is where the ~50,000 comes from.

[MOD NOTE: Banned for second offence.  (that's not what VAERS means)]
« Last Edit: January 04, 2022, 01:29:29 PM by FrugalToque »

Kris

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I'm in the UK, but my dad is becoming more and more of an anti-vaxxer on the matter of covid by the week. It's gotten to the point where I can't believe he genuinely thinks the stuff he says lately... he told me the other day that I'm more likely to die of the vaccine than of covid and that 50000 people in the US died of the vaccine but they covered it up... genuinely I don't know where he heard this clown logic. I have had both my vaccines and plan to get the booster as soon as it's been extended to my age group.

At least we managed to get him to have his first jab back in the summer, before he was so sceptical. He never got his second jab, though.

I think the problem is the YouTube algorithm. He's always been right-wing (UK edition), but it's only since he discovered YouTube about 3 years ago and started listening to right wing US youtubers all the time that he's got steadily more and more wild in his ideas. He used to be relatively sensible. I think he must click on the YouTube recommendations a lot and never listen to any counterbalancing stuff that would take him out of the bubble.

Unfortunately, once he's made up his mind on a topic, he doesn't really listen to me any more. If I suggest that maybe some of these people he's listening to online might not be accurate, he'll just laugh at me and call me stupid, probably.

Peter McCullough (I'm paraphrasing here) points to the VAERS system which has 9,000 recorded deaths from the vaccine. It is generally accepted that what VAERS records is under estimated by a factor of 5. So that is where the ~50,000 comes from.

It is not at all "generally accepted" that the VAERS records are underestimating.

Also, this is not at all what the VAERS system is designed to do. Also, literally anyone can submit something to the system, for any reason, without any sort of proof. Also, the system would count an individual and that individual's lawyer filing an entry as two separate cases.

https://www.nbcconnecticut.com/news/national-international/some-vaccine-skeptics-are-citing-a-little-known-government-website-heres-what-vaers-really-shows/2602989/

EvenSteven

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I'm in the UK, but my dad is becoming more and more of an anti-vaxxer on the matter of covid by the week. It's gotten to the point where I can't believe he genuinely thinks the stuff he says lately... he told me the other day that I'm more likely to die of the vaccine than of covid and that 50000 people in the US died of the vaccine but they covered it up... genuinely I don't know where he heard this clown logic. I have had both my vaccines and plan to get the booster as soon as it's been extended to my age group.

At least we managed to get him to have his first jab back in the summer, before he was so sceptical. He never got his second jab, though.

I think the problem is the YouTube algorithm. He's always been right-wing (UK edition), but it's only since he discovered YouTube about 3 years ago and started listening to right wing US youtubers all the time that he's got steadily more and more wild in his ideas. He used to be relatively sensible. I think he must click on the YouTube recommendations a lot and never listen to any counterbalancing stuff that would take him out of the bubble.

Unfortunately, once he's made up his mind on a topic, he doesn't really listen to me any more. If I suggest that maybe some of these people he's listening to online might not be accurate, he'll just laugh at me and call me stupid, probably.

Peter McCullough (I'm paraphrasing here) points to the VAERS system which has 9,000 recorded deaths from the vaccine. It is generally accepted that what VAERS records is under estimated by a factor of 5. So that is where the ~50,000 comes from.

You are repeating dangerous anti-vax disinformation. VAERS doesn't record any deaths from any vaccine, that is not what the system is. It reports things that happen at some point after a vaccination, regardless of cause. Anyone can report any event, for any reason.

OtherJen

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I'm in the UK, but my dad is becoming more and more of an anti-vaxxer on the matter of covid by the week. It's gotten to the point where I can't believe he genuinely thinks the stuff he says lately... he told me the other day that I'm more likely to die of the vaccine than of covid and that 50000 people in the US died of the vaccine but they covered it up... genuinely I don't know where he heard this clown logic. I have had both my vaccines and plan to get the booster as soon as it's been extended to my age group.

At least we managed to get him to have his first jab back in the summer, before he was so sceptical. He never got his second jab, though.

I think the problem is the YouTube algorithm. He's always been right-wing (UK edition), but it's only since he discovered YouTube about 3 years ago and started listening to right wing US youtubers all the time that he's got steadily more and more wild in his ideas. He used to be relatively sensible. I think he must click on the YouTube recommendations a lot and never listen to any counterbalancing stuff that would take him out of the bubble.

Unfortunately, once he's made up his mind on a topic, he doesn't really listen to me any more. If I suggest that maybe some of these people he's listening to online might not be accurate, he'll just laugh at me and call me stupid, probably.

Peter McCullough (I'm paraphrasing here) points to the VAERS system which has 9,000 recorded deaths from the vaccine. It is generally accepted that what VAERS records is under estimated by a factor of 5. So that is where the ~50,000 comes from.

It is not at all "generally accepted" that the VAERS records are underestimating.

Also, this is not at all what the VAERS system is designed to do. Also, literally anyone can submit something to the system, for any reason, without any sort of proof. Also, the system would count an individual and that individual's lawyer filing an entry as two separate cases.

https://www.nbcconnecticut.com/news/national-international/some-vaccine-skeptics-are-citing-a-little-known-government-website-heres-what-vaers-really-shows/2602989/

Exactly. If I forgot to take my daily dose of loratadine for seasonal allergies the day before I got vaccinated in mid-May and then had an itchy eyes–runny nose reaction when I visited a botanical garden with loads of lilacs and other flowering trees later that day, I could report that reaction to VAERS as a vaccine side effect (despite the fact that I'm all too well-aware of my seasonal allergies to flowering trees).

Of course, I wouldn't, as I have a decent understanding of logical cause and effect and no anti-vax agenda.

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!