Author Topic: Easy Life Syndrome?  (Read 6963 times)

ChpBstrd

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 6794
  • Location: A poor and backward Southern state known as minimum wage country
Easy Life Syndrome?
« on: December 09, 2019, 09:39:46 PM »
I've lived an easy, pleasant life. I was born in the US as a white male into a middle-class family. I received an excellent education and got the opportunity to graduate both college and graduate school debt-free. I've never been a victim of a violent crime or abuse, or been in a fight as an adult. I've had the financial liberty to try 3 different career paths in my life so far, and I've been a homeowner since the age of 24. I've never had any significant health issue. My parents are both alive and both still married. Without trying very hard, the spouse and I accumulated a $900k NW at ages 41 and 38. My commute is 10 minutes and I work a true 40 hour week indoors with virtually no travel required. I've visited Germany, France, Canada, Mexico, and Jamaica. Overall, my life has been devoid of abuse, trauma, loss, or material hardship.

I have ambitions to achieve FIRE (~$400k to go) and spend the remainder of my life working for free on some passion projects to make the world better. Spending the next several years in a cube working for mediocre pay waiting for FIRE to happen seems like water torture, so to speed things up I have looked into:

  -aggressive career advancement,
  -entrepreneurship,
  -skills upgrades (i.e. technical skills), and
  -side businesses.

However, despite years of consideration, I've not mustered the willpower or grit required to make any of these things a reality. It's just so easy to continue the daily routine, and coast. Despite wanting to FIRE very badly, I cannot motivate myself to make it happen faster. It seems rational to coast and enjoy my good fortune, but my ambition disagrees and demands sacrifice. And so it is that life stays very much the same day after day. I'm all conflicted feelings and no action.

I read somewhere that a lot of people who achieved great things usually suffered some kind of acute hardship during childhood. Usually this was something like the death of a parent. I've also read bios of holocaust survivors, war veterans, or people with disabilities who went on to accomplish amazing things. People with a chip on their shoulder - some kind of trauma big enough to run away from but not so big it completely overwhelms the person - seems to have a wellspring of grit and determination.

https://www.inc.com/jessica-stillman/75-percent-of-super-high-achievers-come-from-troubled-families-heres-why.html

I have to wonder: is my own lack of grit and determination is related to living a life that never required it?

Just as a person who has never done physical labor in their life cannot dig a ditch with a shovel, perhaps I also lack what it takes to start a business or work my way up the corporate ladder for a few years because I have so little experience with adversity.   

Has anyone else had an easy life and found themselves lacking grit, determination, and motivation?


ysette9

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 8930
  • Age: 2020
  • Location: Bay Area at heart living in the PNW
Re: Easy Life Syndrome?
« Reply #1 on: December 09, 2019, 09:59:02 PM »
Hmmm. You raise an interesting question, to which I have no answer. However as a parent I find the idea compelling as we try to navigate the complex field of raising little people to become self sufficient and hopefully happy. I do believe that we will stunt them if we always say “yes”. That isn’t a form of adversity per se, but it does require them to develop a certain amount of grit in dealing with what they are provided in life.

Do you feel you are scared to take the plunge on any of these riskier ideas? Maybe if you had nothing to lose and everything to gain it would be easier to take risks? I wonder myself about that since we are FI now and yet I’m wasting mental energy angsting over going back to a job I don’t like. Why should I even care or why don’t I just tell them to stuff it and do something else unconventional? Maybe what it takes for you and me to be this successful is a keen sense of walking the straight and narrow, so stepping outside of that takes bravery.

That still doesn’t answer your question but it has given me stuff to think about.

ysette9

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 8930
  • Age: 2020
  • Location: Bay Area at heart living in the PNW
Re: Easy Life Syndrome?
« Reply #2 on: December 09, 2019, 10:04:33 PM »
Before I put the phone down I also need to ask why. Why should you need or want to have stellar career success or any of the other accomplishments? If it would be really meaningful to you then I’m pretty sure you would find the motivation and grit to at least try. But maybe you dont because you don’t care enough because the life you have is good already.

At my old company I felt I was on a good career path. I had a lot of success and recognition and feel that I could have become a VP of something had I stuck with it. But I don’t work there now and I left a career for a job at a different company. I have no regrets because I ended up trying that path out for size and deciding that the sacrifices it would take for those gains just weren’t worth it. It isn’t like I need to prove to womankind that I can be the badass at work. It was weird coming to terms with leaving potential untapped. My happiness matters more than that.

Freedomin5

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 6568
    • FIRE Countdown
Re: Easy Life Syndrome?
« Reply #3 on: December 10, 2019, 02:08:32 AM »
At the same time, there are people stuck in a cycle of poverty and violence who don’t have the grit and determination to try a different path. So maybe it’s got nothing to do with living an easy life.

I have no idea what the answer is, but it’s an interesting question. I guess this is what researchers such as Angela Duckworth and Martin Seligman were looking at.

Metalcat

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 17632
Re: Easy Life Syndrome?
« Reply #4 on: December 10, 2019, 05:48:25 AM »
Seems more probable to me that you're afraid of the unknown.

DadJokes

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2361
Re: Easy Life Syndrome?
« Reply #5 on: December 10, 2019, 05:58:28 AM »
Do you think Donald Trump faced a lick of adversity prior to starting his own business?

I think everyone deals with a fear of the unknown. Some people take the leap (some fail, some succeed), while most stick with what's comfortable. Is the pain of staying the same greater than the pain of change?

lizzzi

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2150
Re: Easy Life Syndrome?
« Reply #6 on: December 10, 2019, 06:00:22 AM »
I'm one of those people with the crummy/terrible/horrendous childhood who turned out just fine--had plenty of determination to rise above all that. And did.

But regarding your question: One thing I've noticed over the years is that despite circumstances, some people do very well both personally and professionally,  and some people just seem to be a mess no matter what. Cream rises to the top.

And you sound like the cream. So quit worrying about it--you don't have anything to prove. Do whatever you want, and enjoy your life.

Financial.Velociraptor

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2180
  • Age: 51
  • Location: Houston TX
  • Devour your prey raptors!
    • Living Universe Foundation
Re: Easy Life Syndrome?
« Reply #7 on: December 10, 2019, 08:02:25 AM »
I've lived an easy, pleasant life. I was born in the US as a white male into a middle-class family. I received an excellent education and got the opportunity to graduate both college and graduate school debt-free. I've never been a victim of a violent crime or abuse, or been in a fight as an adult. I've had the financial liberty to try 3 different career paths in my life so far, and I've been a homeowner since the age of 24. I've never had any significant health issue. My parents are both alive and both still married. Without trying very hard, the spouse and I accumulated a $900k NW at ages 41 and 38. My commute is 10 minutes and I work a true 40 hour week indoors with virtually no travel required. I've visited Germany, France, Canada, Mexico, and Jamaica. Overall, my life has been devoid of abuse, trauma, loss, or material hardship.

I have ambitions to achieve FIRE (~$400k to go) and spend the remainder of my life working for free on some passion projects to make the world better. Spending the next several years in a cube working for mediocre pay waiting for FIRE to happen seems like water torture, so to speed things up I have looked into:

  -aggressive career advancement,
  -entrepreneurship,
  -skills upgrades (i.e. technical skills), and
  -side businesses.

However, despite years of consideration, I've not mustered the willpower or grit required to make any of these things a reality. It's just so easy to continue the daily routine, and coast. Despite wanting to FIRE very badly, I cannot motivate myself to make it happen faster. It seems rational to coast and enjoy my good fortune, but my ambition disagrees and demands sacrifice. And so it is that life stays very much the same day after day. I'm all conflicted feelings and no action.

I read somewhere that a lot of people who achieved great things usually suffered some kind of acute hardship during childhood. Usually this was something like the death of a parent. I've also read bios of holocaust survivors, war veterans, or people with disabilities who went on to accomplish amazing things. People with a chip on their shoulder - some kind of trauma big enough to run away from but not so big it completely overwhelms the person - seems to have a wellspring of grit and determination.

https://www.inc.com/jessica-stillman/75-percent-of-super-high-achievers-come-from-troubled-families-heres-why.html

I have to wonder: is my own lack of grit and determination is related to living a life that never required it?

Just as a person who has never done physical labor in their life cannot dig a ditch with a shovel, perhaps I also lack what it takes to start a business or work my way up the corporate ladder for a few years because I have so little experience with adversity.   

Has anyone else had an easy life and found themselves lacking grit, determination, and motivation?

#firstworldproblems

This may not answer your question but an old supervisor of mine and I got to talking about my FIRE plans when he announced his conventional age retirement.  He noted something I found to be very true.  When you get close to your number, there is a "Give-A-Shit-O-Meter" that comes into play.  As you get closer to your goal, the needle gets perilously close to the big red "E".  Some of it is negative such as the lack of ambition and motivation you are experiencing now.  But a lot of it is positive such as contentment and a staunch refusal to put up with other people's shit.  **Do it my way or you are fired! --OK, you want me to pack up my desk now or finish out the pay period?  Wha-wha-what?!?  I didn't mean it that way!**

It sounds to me you are close enough to FIRE that you are experiencing a low reading on the GASOM.  I noted it to be VERY true for me.  Maybe it is best to make the most of it. 

As someone who is a little more than 7 years into FIRE, I'll note that after having a great deal of self reflection time, what matters is living according to your personal core values and you can start that NOW.  You will probably be happier if you take some "think time" to identify and write down your core values.  Then structure your approach to work and whatever else you do to be consistent with those values.  The ennui will likely evaporate.  Also note, that your core values are not static.  We change and grow as people so you need to repeat the exercise every couple years.

HTH

Davnasty

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2796
Re: Easy Life Syndrome?
« Reply #8 on: December 10, 2019, 10:47:28 AM »

I have to wonder: is my own lack of grit and determination is related to living a life that never required it?


In my opinion, probably. At least to some extent. It's far more complicated than saying X causes Y but every experience becomes part of who we are and therefore effects the decisions we make. But we can't change the past so who cares? The best you can do with this information is make excuses for yourself and that's only going to make the situation worse.

Personally, I tend to think present circumstances play a larger role than past experiences. If you had grown up through adversity and reached the same position you're in now, I suspect there's a good chance you'd be running into the same wall. I don't think what you're lacking is grit so much as necessity. This is one of my greatest concerns in pursuing FIRE.

As an example, I've always been one who does their best work when time is limited. It's not just a matter of procrastinating and then working very hard at the last minute, it's more like I'm working with a different set of abilities. I have a clarity of mind in these situations that I am incapable of achieving under normal circumstances.

So how does this relate to FIRE or even just having FU money? I assume "necessity" situations will become less common as I have more security and especially once I no longer have the responsibility of a job. Will this make me soft? Will it make me boring? Maybe. Are those concerns significant enough to stop pursuing FIRE and give all my money away? I've decided the answer is no for now and I doubt I'll change my mind, but I can never actually know which path will lead to a better life. My hope is that I can compensate by creating "necessities" working to meet the needs of others once I've met my own.

I realize that my examples aren't going to apply to everyone; what creates motivation for each of us is going to vary. While most of this is just rambling thoughts, the only suggestion I can make is to pay attention to the situations where you do your best work. Maybe they can give you a better understanding of what motivates you so that you can recreate those circumstances.

partgypsy

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5238
Re: Easy Life Syndrome?
« Reply #9 on: December 10, 2019, 12:23:32 PM »
I would say, having a 900K net worth in late 30's or early 40's to me, you are a success and doing something right. You must be accomplished or competent to a pretty high degree in one or more areas to get to that, unless you are robbing banks or something.

As others said, you can't just pick something and say, why won't I do this? It has to be meaningful to you. That meaning from people who came from pretty terrible backgrounds might be from a kind of negative motivation, that is, I never want to be that helpless, put in that situation again. There is the saying "All happy families are alike; each unhappy family is unhappy in its own way" (Tolstoy) in that unhappiness and suffering and those deep emotions can be the motivator for great art. Maybe be thankful you don't have that kind of motivation : /

I think it is wonderful that you have had a "good life". Many people come from terrible situations, and some people seem just plain unlucky and it's GOOD you avoided major pitfalls. This whole thing of adversity causing greatness may be a little overstated because people like hearing about those stories. For one they can be inspiring and also cause us to feel less guilt for those who didn't succeed. For every success like that there is probably 5 who did struggled and survived but did not majorly succeed, and 5 more who struggled, suffered and failed. You could write an article that 75% of people who struggled and failed utterly came from miserable life situations. Does that give you more clarity or perhaps there for the grace of God go I?   


« Last Edit: December 10, 2019, 12:27:42 PM by partgypsy »

SunnyDays

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3524
Re: Easy Life Syndrome?
« Reply #10 on: December 10, 2019, 04:44:03 PM »


I have ambitions to achieve FIRE ....

However, despite years of consideration, I've not mustered the willpower or grit required to make any of these things a reality. It's just so easy to continue the daily routine, and coast. Despite wanting to FIRE very badly, I cannot motivate myself to make it happen faster. It seems rational to coast and enjoy my good fortune, but my ambition disagrees and demands sacrifice. And so it is that life stays very much the same day after day. I'm all conflicted feelings and no action.


You have DREAMS of achieving FIRE, not ambitions.  My guess is that all you have accomplished so far (and they are great accomplishments) have come easily to you without a lot of effort and it's been comfortable to go with the flow.  Did you more or less do what was expected of you, in terms of career, marriage, etc. or did you buck expectations and do what you really wanted to do, regardless of what anyone thought?  I think what you are lacking is mental toughness, which people develop to get out of an uncomfortable place or to get something they want very badly.  Apparently, you never needed to develop this, so coasting is your default course.  A question I once heard (can't remember who asked it), is "What do you value more than your own comfort?"  Focus on answering this for yourself.  If the answer is "nothing," that's okay, just stop torturing yourself with why you're not doing "more."

RangerOne

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 714
Re: Easy Life Syndrome?
« Reply #11 on: December 10, 2019, 05:01:19 PM »
I think I have had a fairly "easy" life. No real life or death adversity. I think one of the biggest curve balls most people experience is untimely deaths in the family.

But this is also kind of a knock on wood situation. You don't have major adversity in your life until you do. Most of us have to deal with something really hard at some point in our lives. If you are really lucky it wont be anything abnormally tragic like an early cancer death or accident.

I consider it having a life where it feels like most things have gone according to plan. Its a great place to be, just enjoy it while always mentally reminding yourself that their is no guarantee that everything will continue to go according to plan.

To date I think the most major adverse situations I have had were unexpected job loss. But as long as your young and healthy that is a pretty easy one to weather. I always hold my breadth a bit hopping I wont have to experience the much harder road blocks of my wife or kids getting hurt. Or someone dying too young.

Wrenchturner

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1341
  • Age: 36
  • Location: Canada
Re: Easy Life Syndrome?
« Reply #12 on: December 10, 2019, 06:03:38 PM »
If your life is too easy, why not make it harder?  Ease doesn't make a fulfilling life.  I've made the same mistake to some degree.

That being said, maybe you're high in trait neuroticism, and you worry and plan and hedge.  That's okay, just adjust your risk tolerance as your wealth/stability increases.  This won't be comfortable but life isn't supposed to be comfortable and there will be times when it is not, regardless of your prior efforts.

FIRE doesn't guarantee a stable life, either.  Disease and tragedy doesn't care about your net worth.

The thing about life is that you're all in, whether you want to be or not.  This is going to kill you.  So see what you can get done in the meantime.

Ynari

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 558
  • Age: 31
Re: Easy Life Syndrome?
« Reply #13 on: December 10, 2019, 08:36:24 PM »

I have to wonder: is my own lack of grit and determination is related to living a life that never required it?


In my opinion, probably. At least to some extent. It's far more complicated than saying X causes Y but every experience becomes part of who we are and therefore effects the decisions we make. But we can't change the past so who cares? The best you can do with this information is make excuses for yourself and that's only going to make the situation worse.

Personally, I tend to think present circumstances play a larger role than past experiences. If you had grown up through adversity and reached the same position you're in now, I suspect there's a good chance you'd be running into the same wall. I don't think what you're lacking is grit so much as necessity. This is one of my greatest concerns in pursuing FIRE.

As an example, I've always been one who does their best work when time is limited. It's not just a matter of procrastinating and then working very hard at the last minute, it's more like I'm working with a different set of abilities. I have a clarity of mind in these situations that I am incapable of achieving under normal circumstances.

So how does this relate to FIRE or even just having FU money? I assume "necessity" situations will become less common as I have more security and especially once I no longer have the responsibility of a job. Will this make me soft? Will it make me boring? Maybe. Are those concerns significant enough to stop pursuing FIRE and give all my money away? I've decided the answer is no for now and I doubt I'll change my mind, but I can never actually know which path will lead to a better life. My hope is that I can compensate by creating "necessities" working to meet the needs of others once I've met my own.

I realize that my examples aren't going to apply to everyone; what creates motivation for each of us is going to vary. While most of this is just rambling thoughts, the only suggestion I can make is to pay attention to the situations where you do your best work. Maybe they can give you a better understanding of what motivates you so that you can recreate those circumstances.

This is very much me - perhaps even to a greater degree. I not only do my best work when work is both "urgent" and "important", but I find it almost impossible to do work at any other time. The definition of "important" has changed over time (a 5-paragraph essay felt very important to middle-school me, but my final research paper needed to get my MEd feels pointless), and has never really included "money". Sure, money enough to get by, but I've never had to worry about it - I've had a supportive mostly-middle-class childhood, am white, have a high EQ, an aptitude and passion for math and data...  Money is interesting, but it is not important to me.

Living in the space between "urgent" and "important" is exhausting. I do excellently under pressure - but then I have to take a nap while I ignore everything else around me. Without anything urgent and important to do, I usually just ignore everything around me until life bugs me with a "check engine light" - "no seriously the engine is making a weird sound stop ignoring this" - "Are you going to wait until you're stuck on the side of the road before attending to this?" (Yes). I've recently found out they have a name for this - executive dysfunction. Often associated with ADHD.

True FIRE sounds like the end of any purpose to my life. Not that I want to devalue an "unproductive" life (who defines productivity, anyway?), but living a life where nothing feels important enough to do is misery. And I am very, very bad at finding my own value, so I need someone else to provide that structure for me. In the modern world, that's usually a job, though it can come in other forms.

Seeing how my "grit" turns on when it's vital and is utterly absent when it's just a nice-to-have, though, the lifestyle-design elements of frugality, FI, and so on are way more important than accumulation. I can choose a job (teaching, for now) that fills my "urgent" and "important" meters. I can work part time so I can recover and also make it to the gym and to therapy appointments. If it ever stops working, I can pivot to something else. I guess that's the thing, though - how do you know when to pivot?

ChpBstrd

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 6794
  • Location: A poor and backward Southern state known as minimum wage country
Re: Easy Life Syndrome?
« Reply #14 on: December 10, 2019, 08:59:33 PM »
Lots of intelligent responses here. Can't unpack them all, but here are some thoughts:

Quote
Why should you need or want to have stellar career success or any of the other accomplishments? If it would be really meaningful to you then I’m pretty sure you would find the motivation and grit to at least try. But maybe you dont because you don’t care enough because the life you have is good already.

This comment reminds me of exercise. We all know we should exercise. We can decide to exercise. We can commit to exercise. But activities that feel less pleasant than their alternatives are very hard to maintain. The "burden" of an easy life is that there is always something more pleasant to do, tempting one away from whatever one resolves is important.

Quote
Seems more probable to me that you're afraid of the unknown.

Unknown as in worrying that getting out there and failing a little might upend the whole happy life which was obtained by being a privileged person who only has to pursue the default paths in front of him? Maybe. But the known fear is becoming trapped in slackerdom. More on that below.

Quote
what matters is living according to your personal core values and you can start that NOW.  You will probably be happier if you take some "think time" to identify and write down your core values.  Then structure your approach to work and whatever else you do to be consistent with those values.  The ennui will likely evaporate.

Tried that, but this comment in this context makes me wonder if I missed one. Perhaps "doing my best" or "being excellent" is a core value? And perhaps I'm not doing it. Which leads to...

Quote
You must be accomplished or competent to a pretty high degree in one or more areas to get to that...

Accomplishment, competency, riches, and being a slacker are all relative terms. The world is full of people more brilliant and talented than me who are sitting on their arses, and if there was something I try to run away from, it would be being like them. A life is a terrible thing to waste. Waste just seems wrong when so many are suffering. To be this lucky and to waste it... the phrase "whistling past the graveyard" comes to mind.

Quote
I assume "necessity" situations will become less common as I have more security and especially once I no longer have the responsibility of a job. Will this make me soft? Will it make me boring? Maybe.

The risk of becoming "soft", lethargic, disorganized, dim, and overall "boring" is truly something to fear. Today, I envision myself retiring to something - I have a vision of the future life and it involves hard work. Yet, how do I expect to accomplish this - to be this person - when I don't possess those traits now?

Quote
My guess is that all you have accomplished so far (and they are great accomplishments) have come easily to you without a lot of effort and it's been comfortable to go with the flow.  Did you more or less do what was expected of you, in terms of career, marriage, etc. or did you buck expectations and do what you really wanted to do, regardless of what anyone thought?  I think what you are lacking is mental toughness, which people develop to get out of an uncomfortable place or to get something they want very badly.  Apparently, you never needed to develop this, so coasting is your default course.  A question I once heard (can't remember who asked it), is "What do you value more than your own comfort?"  Focus on answering this for yourself.  If the answer is "nothing," that's okay, just stop torturing yourself with why you're not doing "more."

That's pretty much my theory. In terms of others' expectations, I'd say I grew up with a strong emphasis on academic achievement (which I did) but not careerism (which I didn't). However, I made some maverick career moves, changing careers 3 times when my own expectations weren't being met, and each transition took effort. So it's a mixed bag.

I can name lots of things more important to me than comfort - but despite my values, comfort is hard to resist. This is like how one can value fitness but have a hard time competing with the taste of chocolate and bacon. Another example is how the world seems to be filled with keyboard warriors who have VERY STRONG OPINIONS and yet these deep convictions rarely translate into donations or volunteer hours. On this forum, we hear from people all the time who have large houses, expensive cars, and devastating food and beverage habits, but who say they value financial freedom. If luxury is an addiction or a weakness, so is comfort.

Quote
You don't have major adversity in your life until you do.

This is another problem with being weak-willed. My string of luck must necessarily run out someday. Loved ones will die. Health will fail. Externalities will come along and create danger. Will I be ready? Or will I crumble under the first bit of serious adversity I've ever faced, like the person who's never exercised in their life who has to run a mile to flee the erupting volcano?

Quote
If your life is too easy, why not make it harder?  Ease doesn't make a fulfilling life.

This is something I've considered, just for the sake of exercising grit. I could train for an athletic event like a half marathon. I could relocate to somewhere where everything is difficult and awkward. I could take on an ambitious project where others are depending on me. I could do one of those escrow accounts where if you don't accomplish your goal in a certain amount of time, you lose your money.

I tell myself the barrier with finding worthwhile hard things to do is time. That's a BS excuse. I could be doing ten squats every day with one minute of time. I could be learning Spanish in diez minutes a day.

Quote
...maybe you're high in trait neuroticism, and you worry and plan and hedge.  That's okay, just adjust your risk tolerance as your wealth/stability increases.  This won't be comfortable but life isn't supposed to be comfortable and there will be times when it is not, regardless of your prior efforts.

Good point. Much of my luck, success, and lack of struggle is a result of mistake avoidance. While friends and acquaintances crash and burn, I just keep zig zagging through the wreckage somehow. I meticulously research everything as if studying for a bachelor's degree in Jack-of-All-Trades, and can be quite a bore with my chitchat about how to properly calculate the ROI of a mortgage refinance, why you should only buy cars with timing chains and not timing belts, and why taking a "dietary supplement" is usually a bad idea. I could probably be accused of liking to stay within my circle of control a bit too much for my own good - only moving beyond the circle after having expanded it. Being risk averse has served me so well for so long it has become habitual, but I guess I'd like to have a solid offensive game as well as a good defense. 

Neurotic personality trait is an intriguing explanation. I will have to look further into this direction so thanks for the lead (meticulous research ahead, of course).

Quote
I've recently found out they have a name for this - executive dysfunction. Often associated with ADHD.

Another intriguing explanation! Now I'm all over this article and its links: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_dysfunction

Wrenchturner

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1341
  • Age: 36
  • Location: Canada
Re: Easy Life Syndrome?
« Reply #15 on: December 10, 2019, 09:53:58 PM »
Neuroticism is part of the big five personality traits(indicated here as emotional stability[low]).  There are different personality models out there; I find this one useful.  There's a program at understandmyself.com that can map you on this personality model for a small price.  You can also use selfauthoring.com which is also not free but helps you to write about who you were, are, and who you could be(if you improve or if you fail--it's important to know what your worst self would look like).

Ultimately though I would recommend David Goggins, you can start with podcasts or his audiobook.  I find his messages very encouraging.  Jocko Willink is also really good(discipline is freedom). 

You seem to dwell on training or committing, but really I think you need to focus on doing.  Fear of failure is paralyzing, it's better sometimes to simply take action and suffer your flaws as you go.  Always trying to plan and anticipate creates a weakness when you are in a situation that you did not anticipate.  I think you are learning this now(so am I).  This will eat away at you and stress you out, and you'll keep trying to plan and train.  You can't map out everywhere.

You have to cultivate your ability to navigate unfamiliar territory as well as familiar territory.  One is not a substitute for the other.

I like to schedule things, and for the things I don't like to do, I'll schedule ten minutes of it.  You can do ten minutes of pretty much anything.  And just keep adding minutes as you get more comfortable/see results from your "sacrifice".  Sometimes you have to humble your "ego" and listen to your "self", the part of you that wants to improve and get stronger. 

No one likes alarm clocks but everyone likes a productive day.  Don't assume this is superficial, quite the contrary--it's at the root of the challenge to be human.


Ynari

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 558
  • Age: 31
Re: Easy Life Syndrome?
« Reply #16 on: December 10, 2019, 10:01:12 PM »
You may enjoy https://www.raptitude.com/ (Blog tagline: "Getting better at being human".)


Side soap box:
Quote
Why should you need or want to have stellar career success or any of the other accomplishments? If it would be really meaningful to you then I’m pretty sure you would find the motivation and grit to at least try. But maybe you dont because you don’t care enough because the life you have is good already.

This comment reminds me of exercise. We all know we should exercise. We can decide to exercise. We can commit to exercise. But activities that feel less pleasant than their alternatives are very hard to maintain. The "burden" of an easy life is that there is always something more pleasant to do, tempting one away from whatever one resolves is important.
The original comment here is the kind of thing that made me fall to pieces before understanding my ADHD. I'd run into quite a few motivational quotes saying more or less the above, so I started to think that maybe I didn't really want to do the things I thought wanted to do. That even though I loved knitting, or reading, or martial arts while I was doing those activities, the fact that I couldn't get off my ass and make myself do them meant that I didn't actually care enough. Maybe I was just a lazy, garbage human being who just wanted to waste time scrolling Facebook.

And in truth, it's an important analysis - it's not effective to aim for someone else's goals, nor is it satisfying to continuously make no progress on goals you do care about. But it can be a more complex situation and needs to be framed as such. I have to deal with the fact that reading will spiral me into hyperfocus and I won't sleep until I'm done, so it's not that I don't want to read or that I can't read, it's that I can't afford my life being upended for three days. With the new understanding, I can try to adapt things until it's feasible again. (i.e. Move to audio books, only read when I have a concrete thing to do in an hour so I can't binge, accept that I can only read on vacation...) So don't give up on dreams that you haven't made progress on yet - but do seriously consider what needs to happen in order to make them viable, and if its worth it in the end.

Linea_Norway

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 8582
  • Location: Norway
Re: Easy Life Syndrome?
« Reply #17 on: December 11, 2019, 01:37:15 AM »
I have also had a relatively easy life. A few setbacks though, as my father died when I turned 23. But that didn't effect me life-wise, as I was already independent. But even though I was a bit pampered, I felt a strong urge to become independent from my parents. But I didn't finish my university (that the government and parents paid for), so obviously that didn't have a high enough priority in my mind to finish it. That always made me feel a bit guilty afterwards.

When it comes to dedicated training, I have been able to motivate myself to work hard for hairy goals, like finishing running a marathon, finishing a long CC skiing race, passing difficult exams both for work and privately. I personally like it to have a clear goal to work to. The last thing was making our home representable for sale.

When it comes to exercise, I generally like to be outside, hiking or skiing or other things. So that helps to get out of the door. But we (DH and I) do not manage to get out of the door every day. Since we stopped working on Fridays I have come to terms with not having to go outside every day. We are allowed to spend a day indoors reading books or binge-watching TV if we feel like it. I also helps to do things together with others/someone else and have an appointment, like with a local hiking group.

Yes, I have also had thoughts in the past, and still have sometimes, about "shouldn't I create my own business". DH actually thought very specifically about it for after FIRE, but found out that the initial investment is very big and you need to work lots of hours to run even with the cost. So he will do his sidegig, working for another company on hourly basis, instead of for himself. I my case, I have never had the great business idea. But now that we are FI, I am also thinking, "who cares". Nobody probably does, so I shouldn't either.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2019, 12:44:10 PM by Linea_Norway »

Moonwaves

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1959
  • Location: Germany
Re: Easy Life Syndrome?
« Reply #18 on: December 11, 2019, 04:26:10 AM »
I have ambitions to achieve FIRE (~$400k to go) and spend the remainder of my life working for free on some passion projects to make the world better. Spending the next several years in a cube working for mediocre pay waiting for FIRE to happen seems like water torture, so to speed things up I have looked into....

What about not having such a clearly delineated pre- and post-FIRE life? Can you work part-time on some passion projects or something related now? Gaining experience, getting to know people, etc. will surely all be useful to you when you want to be devoting more time to it post-FIRE and in the meantime, should probably help offset some of the torture of the cube life.

And don't forget to focus on the other side of the equation, too. It's not just about earning more, it's also about potentially spending less. Is your spending in line with your values? Is there anything you currently spend on that, if you look at it from a point of view of "x working weeks of my life are being spent so that I will have the money to finance this throughout my RE", you might decide that actually isn't that important in your life?

John Galt incarnate!

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2038
  • Location: On Cloud Nine
Re: Easy Life Syndrome?
« Reply #19 on: December 11, 2019, 09:35:00 AM »


Much of my luck, success, and lack of struggle is a result of mistake avoidance. While friends and acquaintances crash and burn, I just keep zig zagging through the wreckage somehow.



I was told that Abraham Lincoln said "I never met a man who couldn't teach me something and what he taught  me was what I should not do."

A philosopher  taught me that  the paradigm of man consists of three  elements, the reasoning, appetitive, and spirited.

The reasoning element is the intellect.

The appetitive element is comprised of appetites.

The spirited element is the gamut of emotions.

I cannot overemphasize that reasoning-element dominance is indispensable to mistake avoidance.

« Last Edit: December 11, 2019, 10:42:04 AM by John Galt incarnate! »

Daisyedwards800

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 320
Re: Easy Life Syndrome?
« Reply #20 on: December 11, 2019, 11:54:35 AM »
You definitely so far have not experienced much adversity - but as we get older, things start to come a bit quicker, so I think having a solid base like you do have will help when anything happens (as parents get older and family members get sick or die it will be a shock as you aren't used to it, but such is life).

My adversity:

1) Father died from cancer when I was 13.  He was a WONDERFUL man.
2) All 4 grandparents died by the time I was 14.
3) Mother had been a SAHM so started out making $28,000 with 4 kids and a house to pay for, so money was very scary for us.
4) Oldest brother became an alcoholic and killed himself at age 50.
5) Another brother became schizophrenic (we think, maybe be psychotic depression) and hasn't been able to work in years - on SSI now.
6) Began life with $75,000 in student loan debt and $0 to my name.
7) Female/introvert so not promoted as fast as some might be.

Those are the big ones, obviously there's other stuff that went wrong along the way.  Privilege:  I am white, naturally intelligent and had a good middle-class education growing up.

SO and I currently have $640k plus some real estate of his ($200k+) saved, ages 37 and 38.  I graduated with all A's from my MBA program, in the process of becoming a CPA (eventually) and making $132,000 a year plus bonus/match.  In fairly good shape, no addictions or chronic depression, decent friendships, and decent hobbies.

Tass

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3265
  • Age: 30
  • Location: Crossing some mountains
Re: Easy Life Syndrome?
« Reply #21 on: December 11, 2019, 12:50:53 PM »
Side soap box:
Quote
Why should you need or want to have stellar career success or any of the other accomplishments? If it would be really meaningful to you then I’m pretty sure you would find the motivation and grit to at least try. But maybe you dont because you don’t care enough because the life you have is good already.

This comment reminds me of exercise. We all know we should exercise. We can decide to exercise. We can commit to exercise. But activities that feel less pleasant than their alternatives are very hard to maintain. The "burden" of an easy life is that there is always something more pleasant to do, tempting one away from whatever one resolves is important.
The original comment here is the kind of thing that made me fall to pieces before understanding my ADHD. I'd run into quite a few motivational quotes saying more or less the above, so I started to think that maybe I didn't really want to do the things I thought wanted to do. That even though I loved knitting, or reading, or martial arts while I was doing those activities, the fact that I couldn't get off my ass and make myself do them meant that I didn't actually care enough. Maybe I was just a lazy, garbage human being who just wanted to waste time scrolling Facebook.

And in truth, it's an important analysis - it's not effective to aim for someone else's goals, nor is it satisfying to continuously make no progress on goals you do care about. But it can be a more complex situation and needs to be framed as such. I have to deal with the fact that reading will spiral me into hyperfocus and I won't sleep until I'm done, so it's not that I don't want to read or that I can't read, it's that I can't afford my life being upended for three days. With the new understanding, I can try to adapt things until it's feasible again. (i.e. Move to audio books, only read when I have a concrete thing to do in an hour so I can't binge, accept that I can only read on vacation...) So don't give up on dreams that you haven't made progress on yet - but do seriously consider what needs to happen in order to make them viable, and if its worth it in the end.

Wow, uh... that hits a little close to home.

I can relate to much of the OP. On the whole, things have pretty much always gone well for me. I'm a PhD student, and I'm very tired of being a PhD student, but struggle mightily to do more than coast - even though working harder could get me out of here faster. I know I can be highly motivated in other contexts, but I've learned my willpower is not a force I can summon from nowhere, which has led to plenty of concerns about whether I'm actually capable of hard work, etc.

Interesting thread.

Buffaloski Boris

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2121
Re: Easy Life Syndrome?
« Reply #22 on: December 15, 2019, 05:39:19 PM »
Interesting thread. And as usual, I disagree with the premise. The tacit assumption being that success is a result of goals and being willing to put the proverbial “spurs in the hide.” And to a certain extent maybe that’s true. But what separates those who have a goal such as “I want to be wealthy” which is probably shared by 98% plus of the populace, and those who achieve it? Is it privilege? Maybe, but I doubt it. There are plenty of people who have had all of the advantages and still end up as wastrels.

I listened to a fascinating podcast on Choose FI a few days ago entitled “Atomic Habits” and the gentleman had a really interesting perspective. I’m probably butchering it, but the difference between those who achieve goals and the also-rans boils down to systems. The people who win the race, who become very wealthy, who achieve the goals have systems or habits in place where the success is a just a natural consequence of the habits they put into place. Using the “I want to be wealthy” goal as an example, why is it that many of those here are wealthy? Did we want it badly? Heck, lots of people want it badly. The reason why most who are wealthy achieved it is they had habits such as a high savings rate, frugality habits, an aversion to debt, etc. Wealth was a natural consequence of those habits. It’s also an identity thing. Those who identify as say very fit are driven to adopt healthy habits.

meghan88

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 834
  • Location: Montreal
Re: Easy Life Syndrome?
« Reply #23 on: December 15, 2019, 06:21:06 PM »
Interesting thread. And as usual, I disagree with the premise. The tacit assumption being that success is a result of goals and being willing to put the proverbial “spurs in the hide.” And to a certain extent maybe that’s true. But what separates those who have a goal such as “I want to be wealthy” which is probably shared by 98% plus of the populace, and those who achieve it? Is it privilege? Maybe, but I doubt it. There are plenty of people who have had all of the advantages and still end up as wastrels.

I listened to a fascinating podcast on Choose FI a few days ago entitled “Atomic Habits” and the gentleman had a really interesting perspective. I’m probably butchering it, but the difference between those who achieve goals and the also-rans boils down to systems. The people who win the race, who become very wealthy, who achieve the goals have systems or habits in place where the success is a just a natural consequence of the habits they put into place. Using the “I want to be wealthy” goal as an example, why is it that many of those here are wealthy? Did we want it badly? Heck, lots of people want it badly. The reason why most who are wealthy achieved it is they had habits such as a high savings rate, frugality habits, an aversion to debt, etc. Wealth was a natural consequence of those habits. It’s also an identity thing. Those who identify as say very fit are driven to adopt healthy habits.

I generally agree re. habits.  The added nuance is that the definition of "success" differs from person to person:

- to create something novel that everyone will remember (artists and some entrepreneurs)
- to make a crap-ton of money (mercenaries, tycoons and some artists and entrepreneurs)
- to invent something that will improve things for humanity (ummm ... depends on what one means by "improve")
- to be an exemplary human being (insert your chosen traits here)
- to be a flash-in-the-pan influencer (too many to name)

Are you looking to be comfortable, or be remembered, or both?  What are you seeking?  Most of us have to "settle" for some form of comfortable anonymous mediocrity.  Are you OK with that?  I think the vast majority of us have to be, and it's making peace with that, that is sometimes challenging.  Is that what you're struggling with?

Many of us, myself included, can be waylaid by the notion that we "just" need to get to the next level in the stupid video game that is Lifestyle, and that all will be gravy after that.  What's harder is to be happy with what we already have.

scantee

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 582
Re: Easy Life Syndrome?
« Reply #24 on: December 15, 2019, 06:48:42 PM »
Ideally everyone in the world would have the opportunity you have. For me, that is the appeal of progress, that everyone has a chance to live a life devoid of deprivation, with time to pursue the interests that personally satisfy them and bring value to their communities.

Even in that scenario there will probably be people who are workaholics but my guess, or hope, is that they would devote their time to more worthwhile pursuits than like ad tech and developing exotic financial instruments.

You shouldn’t feel bad, you should feel grateful. One thing you can do to assuage any guilt you may have is to find way to be valuable outside of yourself or your family. Volunteer, give charitably, serve on a board, get involved in civic activities: just a few ways you can turn your charmed life (and I have one too) into something more than something that benefits you and your family alone.

Tass

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3265
  • Age: 30
  • Location: Crossing some mountains
Re: Easy Life Syndrome?
« Reply #25 on: December 16, 2019, 06:37:19 PM »
I just listened to The Happiness Lab's episode, "Don't Accentuate The Positive," which can be found here: https://www.happinesslab.fm/episodes/dont-accentuate-the-positive

Among other things, it discusses how dwelling on fantasies actually demotivates us and limits the likelihood we'll achieve our goals, and outlines some better strategies centered on anticipating and planning around obstacles. Vaguely reminded me of this thread, and of mustachianism in general, so here it is for y'all.

ChpBstrd

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 6794
  • Location: A poor and backward Southern state known as minimum wage country
Re: Easy Life Syndrome?
« Reply #26 on: December 16, 2019, 08:40:48 PM »
Interesting thread. And as usual, I disagree with the premise. The tacit assumption being that success is a result of goals and being willing to put the proverbial “spurs in the hide.” And to a certain extent maybe that’s true. But what separates those who have a goal such as “I want to be wealthy” which is probably shared by 98% plus of the populace, and those who achieve it? Is it privilege? Maybe, but I doubt it. There are plenty of people who have had all of the advantages and still end up as wastrels.

I listened to a fascinating podcast on Choose FI a few days ago entitled “Atomic Habits” and the gentleman had a really interesting perspective. I’m probably butchering it, but the difference between those who achieve goals and the also-rans boils down to systems. The people who win the race, who become very wealthy, who achieve the goals have systems or habits in place where the success is a just a natural consequence of the habits they put into place. Using the “I want to be wealthy” goal as an example, why is it that many of those here are wealthy? Did we want it badly? Heck, lots of people want it badly. The reason why most who are wealthy achieved it is they had habits such as a high savings rate, frugality habits, an aversion to debt, etc. Wealth was a natural consequence of those habits. It’s also an identity thing. Those who identify as say very fit are driven to adopt healthy habits.

I've found that habit development by default tends to lean in the direction of doing what is easy, getting a quick pleasure kick, or avoiding some stress or anxiety. We go to our favorite restaurant because we don't want to cook and clean. We watch videos rather than doing something useful because we want to relax. At work, our autopilot mode tends to be whatever behaviors have never generated a gripe.

For people in the grip of bad habits (MMM tends to focus on bad financial habits, but there are many more categories) a focus on developing good habits makes sense, if for no other reason than negation of the bad alternatives. Through brute willpower and some mind hacking, we can choose to do things the hard way: to put in the extra time at work, to exercise even when it doesn't feel good, to eat better even when it tastes less good, to quit smoking even when we get the shakes.

One could, in theory, use this approach to adapt their mind so that it relentlessly pursues specific goals. E.g. Running a marathon requires a "habit" of daily practice. Starting a business requires "habits" of deep engagement in the work, working long hours, and taking unorthodox risks. Creating a great work of art requires daily cultivation of a skill.

Sounds great in theory, but where do people get the motivation to kickstart the habit? What if I say "I'd like to be able to run 1 mile nonstop, and I will develop this skill by making it a habit to start running 100 yards every day." On day 2, you miss your run, and yet still tell yourself "I'd still like to be able to run 1 mile nonstop..."


NotJen

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1640
  • Location: USA
Re: Easy Life Syndrome?
« Reply #27 on: December 16, 2019, 09:28:14 PM »
You seem to equate motivation to being perfect?  You don’t need to be relentless, you just have to have follow through.  If you miss a day, it happens, you recommit the next next day.  Real change takes time.

I particularly love exercise and eating well, so it bothers me that you think they are unattainable.  Or too terrible to find the motivation to do.

The motivation for me to start eating well was when I started having back pain at 24 because I was fat.  It was a slow progression from not watching what I ate to being more mindful, and eating more fresh food.  I love vegetables and salads.  I’m not pretending, or secretly sad when I eat them - I actually like them more than lots of other foods. But I still do unhealthy things - like eat sugar and drink alcohol. I’m not perfect, but I still believe I’ve developed a darn good habit of eating well.

I have actually run a marathon (one was enough).  Never thought I would - I hated running, but I started doing it to help me lose weight.  It started out with lots of walking (which I’ve always preferred), but then I started jogging the cul-de-sacs on my route.  Then one day I started jogging all of it.  I was a runner.  It’s still not my favorite form of exercise, but at some point I started being jealous when I saw people out running.  So I did it more to satisfy that desire.  The marathon was just a natural progression of the habit.

I tried the whole “wishing I was fit” thing.  It doesn’t work.  Until I put together a system to develop habits, I never made any progress.  I’ve maintained a 50-60lb loss for 10 years now.  It is still work every day.  Not everyone is so successful - I don’t know why, but my guess is because I didn’t go to extremes.  I didn’t follow a strict diet plan.  I didn’t follow a strict exercise plan (aside from exercising every day).  It’s harder to get knocked out of a new habit if you allow flexibility.

It’s okay to not have a desire to run a marathon.  But you mention exercise a lot in your posts, so it sounds like the interest is there.  You just need to find out what your thing is - the thing you will actually enjoy.  It will still be hard, but there will be enough about the activity or the results that are enjoyable and help you develop that habit.

ChpBstrd

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 6794
  • Location: A poor and backward Southern state known as minimum wage country
Re: Easy Life Syndrome?
« Reply #28 on: December 16, 2019, 09:54:32 PM »
Thanks NotJen, or should I say congratulations?

I'm using exercise as a metaphor because it is a good one. My actual distance to run is more like a life of time and attention management with a financial component - prefer not to share the exact details, but suffice to say I know exactly what I want to do after FIRE. I'm no perfectionist and can tolerate plenty of deviation from the desired path (maybe too much). 

I think I can get one more lap out of the exercise metaphor so here goes:

Suppose you were born with a body that just for genetic reasons alone stayed in good enough shape to run a 5k on any given day even if you never exercised. You just by default have an enviable BMI, excellent muscle tone, a strong back, and six-pack abs. How motivated would you be to train for the marathon when you've already got it so good?

This is what it's like to have a $900k net worth and to think about starting a business or making a bold career move involving 20 extra hours of work per week, but which reduces working time in the long run.

NotJen

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1640
  • Location: USA
Re: Easy Life Syndrome?
« Reply #29 on: December 17, 2019, 08:19:00 AM »
No congratulations - my personal examples are only to demonstrate that people with easy lives can do some of the things you specifically mentioned.

I think I can get one more lap out of the exercise metaphor so here goes:

Suppose you were born with a body that just for genetic reasons alone stayed in good enough shape to run a 5k on any given day even if you never exercised. You just by default have an enviable BMI, excellent muscle tone, a strong back, and six-pack abs. How motivated would you be to train for the marathon when you've already got it so good?

I think plenty of people would still be motivated to run a marathon if they actually wanted to.  Not everyone who runs marathons does so because they used to be fat or had some adversity.  I know a guy in town who wins marathons. He started out in biking - it's what he really enjoyed and he was really good at bike racing, but he decided he wanted to run a marathon.  He was already in good shape, but he trained, he ran and liked it, then he trained hard enough to start winning.

This is what it's like to have a $900k net worth and to think about starting a business or making a bold career move involving 20 extra hours of work per week, but which reduces working time in the long run.

Well, that's where I was this year, $900k net worth.  I have absolutely no desire to start a business, but I did make a bold career move.  I quit my career.  It was an actual goal I made for myself about this time last year.  It was extremely hard, though the actual action is quite easy.  The easier path would have been to stay in my cushy high-paying job indefinitely.  I'm quite proud of myself, but expect absolutely no one else to GAF (that's not true - the people I shared my goal with are super proud, like my parents).

I worked for a really long time for a small business that was started by a few motivated people.  Not many small businesses make it - but they've kept it up for over 20 years.  What they did right - they started small.  The started while they were still employed and put in the extra effort.  They quit and started adding employees painfully slowly.  They added office space slowly.  They found a great base of employees early in the process and treated them well.  They all had low-adversity lives - they just thought they could build a better company than the one they worked for.  And they were eventually wildly successful - though they also would have done quite well had they not started their own businesses as they all made great salaries prior and had tons of career options.  Many of the founders are now recognized leaders in their fields.  The downside is that it's hard to step away from that and actually retire - though they are all working very flexible hours and taking lots of time off to pursue hobbies and such.

I don't have the answer - I think everyone who has commented has lots of good advice.  You sound very defeatist when you talk about goals and motivation. You seem to be psyching yourself out before even starting (I noticed the same as Wrenchturner.)

You seem to dwell on training or committing, but really I think you need to focus on doing.

I find motivation easy when I have a reasonable goal in mind.  I don't make lots of goals, and I don't make crazy goals - so maybe it's just failure at goal setting that makes me successful?  Or I set a low bar for what success means (basically - did I meet my goal and am I enjoying life?).  Who knows.  I'm not motivated to start a business or be super wealthy, or anything that other people particularly care about.  I've had a low-adversity life.

Make a goal for something that I *actually* want -> because I want it I feel motivated to do it -> meet my goal eventually.  For me, it's that simple.  Like other people have mentioned, habits really help.

That's great that you know exactly what you want to do after FIRE.  I have no clue yet, even though that's where I am right now!  I have not made figuring it out a goal yet because I can't really put together what the "success criteria" would be, and also I don't want to limit myself needlessly.

ChpBstrd

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 6794
  • Location: A poor and backward Southern state known as minimum wage country
Re: Easy Life Syndrome?
« Reply #30 on: December 17, 2019, 10:04:18 AM »
Good points @NotJen.

A bit less pondering and a bit more one-foot-in-front-of-the-other might go a long way with me.

I also suspect I have a tendency to set too many goals. Once that has been done, I’m pretty good at not over-committing myself, so then most of my goals sit on the to-do list distracting and demotivating me. I’ll try killing off a few of these, and for the goals that are too cute to kill, I might try putting them in a box to open in 5 years or so.

markbike528CBX

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1912
  • Location: the Everbrown part of the Evergreen State (WA)
Re: Easy Life Syndrome?
« Reply #31 on: December 17, 2019, 11:44:15 AM »
ChpBstrd,
The "had X issue,and overcame it" story is the one that gets told because it is perceived as unlikely, and a story of hope.

The "had X issue,and was a loser ever after" you won't hear much of,  because it is perceived as likely, and a story devoid of hope.

The relative frequency of the storytelling creates a bias.

I really don't see that you have anything but a cultural bias problem.

Buffaloski Boris

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2121
Re: Easy Life Syndrome?
« Reply #32 on: December 17, 2019, 08:47:31 PM »
Interesting thread. And as usual, I disagree with the premise. The tacit assumption being that success is a result of goals and being willing to put the proverbial “spurs in the hide.” And to a certain extent maybe that’s true. But what separates those who have a goal such as “I want to be wealthy” which is probably shared by 98% plus of the populace, and those who achieve it? Is it privilege? Maybe, but I doubt it. There are plenty of people who have had all of the advantages and still end up as wastrels.

I listened to a fascinating podcast on Choose FI a few days ago entitled “Atomic Habits” and the gentleman had a really interesting perspective. I’m probably butchering it, but the difference between those who achieve goals and the also-rans boils down to systems. The people who win the race, who become very wealthy, who achieve the goals have systems or habits in place where the success is a just a natural consequence of the habits they put into place. Using the “I want to be wealthy” goal as an example, why is it that many of those here are wealthy? Did we want it badly? Heck, lots of people want it badly. The reason why most who are wealthy achieved it is they had habits such as a high savings rate, frugality habits, an aversion to debt, etc. Wealth was a natural consequence of those habits. It’s also an identity thing. Those who identify as say very fit are driven to adopt healthy habits.


Sounds great in theory, but where do people get the motivation to kickstart the habit? What if I say "I'd like to be able to run 1 mile nonstop, and I will develop this skill by making it a habit to start running 100 yards every day." On day 2, you miss your run, and yet still tell dyourself "I'd still like to be able to run 1 mile nonstop..."

Interestingly, the author talked about that. What I got out of it is that small habits matter. So for example, if someone has a goal of working out and getting in shape, the habit to focus on is showing up to the gym. He used an example of someone who simply went to the gym everyday for a few minutes. Didn’t work out, just showed up. Did that for awhile and when going to the gym became a habit, transitioned to “while I’m here, I might as well do something.”

It reminded me of the adage of how you eat an elephant: one bite at a time.

I need to get the book.

Ynari

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 558
  • Age: 31
Re: Easy Life Syndrome?
« Reply #33 on: December 19, 2019, 10:13:27 PM »
I started using the app The Fabulous a few weeks ago. Starts you out with an easy routine (drink water every morning) that then grows. I haven't played around with it fully, but I've been liking it so far. Definitely not a magic bullet, but a pleasant experience to make routines easier to establish.

Also, if missing day 2 of a habit derails you so much, you've got a lot going on you need to unpack, perhaps in therapy, perhaps just in mindset. My work has an 80%-of-goal standard for formal reviews (i.e. beginning of year you set a numeric goal, and if you hit 80% of that goal it's counted as being accomplished) and I've kind of taken that on for personal things too. If I aim to work out 3 times a week, and I miss one day every-other-week, I'm still doing enough to make forward progress.

Linea_Norway

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 8582
  • Location: Norway
Re: Easy Life Syndrome?
« Reply #34 on: December 19, 2019, 11:41:34 PM »
I started using the app The Fabulous a few weeks ago. Starts you out with an easy routine (drink water every morning) that then grows. I haven't played around with it fully, but I've been liking it so far. Definitely not a magic bullet, but a pleasant experience to make routines easier to establish.

Also, if missing day 2 of a habit derails you so much, you've got a lot going on you need to unpack, perhaps in therapy, perhaps just in mindset. My work has an 80%-of-goal standard for formal reviews (i.e. beginning of year you set a numeric goal, and if you hit 80% of that goal it's counted as being accomplished) and I've kind of taken that on for personal things too. If I aim to work out 3 times a week, and I miss one day every-other-week, I'm still doing enough to make forward progress.

Missing out 1/3 of your planned training is not fulfilling 80%.
When I define a training regime, for example for my marathon training, I prioritize a number of exercises per week. If I can't make it one day, I will still do it another day, so that the total number per weeks fits. I was also allowed to do another type of exercise that day if the planned training was too hard on my body that day. But it meant that I sometimes had to plan to run before going to work, as I wouldn't have time in the evenings. And I had to say no to some invitations, because my training schedule was more important.
If you want to set a goal, you should also think through how you are going to implement it. Be specific. When and where and how are you going to do your habit. And log what you do.

Ynari

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 558
  • Age: 31
Re: Easy Life Syndrome?
« Reply #35 on: December 20, 2019, 10:57:01 AM »
Missing out 1/3 of your planned training is not fulfilling 80%.
When I define a training regime, for example for my marathon training, I prioritize a number of exercises per week. If I can't make it one day, I will still do it another day, so that the total number per weeks fits. I was also allowed to do another type of exercise that day if the planned training was too hard on my body that day. But it meant that I sometimes had to plan to run before going to work, as I wouldn't have time in the evenings. And I had to say no to some invitations, because my training schedule was more important.
If you want to set a goal, you should also think through how you are going to implement it. Be specific. When and where and how are you going to do your habit. And log what you do.

I think you missed the "every-other-week" point, which means missing 1 day in 2 weeks of 3x per week, or 1 in 6.

Knowing about how to set goals that are attainable is important, but also understanding yourself and the specific environmental factors. For some, setting an unattainable goal and reaching 80% of it is healthy and productive; for others it's completely demoralizing, and they should set small goals. Sometimes the thing that works changes - maybe typical routines can be built on incremental improvement, but a reset after a diversion like a vacation needs to be a dive in.

Regardless, holding tight and fast to "one and only one" way of setting/achieving a goal is not usually sustainable unless you are a very unique person who thrives under that.

Schaefer Light

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1328
Re: Easy Life Syndrome?
« Reply #36 on: December 20, 2019, 05:53:45 PM »
Three years ago, I could have said that I'd had a very easy life up until that point.  In the past three years, I've been through a divorce, lost a job, and been diagnosed with a chronic health condition.  All I can say is to be mindful of the fact that your good fortune could end at any time.

TheOldestYoungMan

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 778
Re: Easy Life Syndrome?
« Reply #37 on: January 07, 2020, 04:13:01 AM »
I....dunno man.  Ditto on everything but the spouse, life felt pretty easy there for a long time, but then shit hit the fan everywhere at once in a bad way.  What hardship might do is give you perspective.  You don't need another 400k, you've got a mega-crapton of assets and can live a life better than 99.99% of people who ever lived.

I was one-more-yearing it to an early heart attack when everything fell apart, and quitting my job to be a stay-at-home-sack-o-shit led to some really great things happening.  I did some lifetime 'chievement type stuff, but it's only impressive to me (ranked #1 in a vidya game for a whole seven days!  My week on TOP!  I pwned those n00bs).  Nothing I did is anything anyone else would care about, but that's OK.  If I'd kept going the way I had been, I would have thought I needed to keep working for another ten years.  I grew the mother of all sweet potatoes.  That shit woulda gotten ribbons n shit if they weren't requiring shoes at the county fair now, buncha highfalutin' city folk!  Slept the hell outta that hammock.  More hours in then out.

Ultimately, the hardship didn't make me FIRE, I would've done it before then, my shit happened literally four days before my original FIRE date.  But, the hardship did make it so when I FIRE'd WELL short of my original number, I enjoyed it despite knowing the money might run out, because I knew being broke isn't the worst thing, and I'd already survived worse.

Go find out.  But keep the wife happy while you do it...because...reasons...

Now it's six months into a new job, almost two years after I FIRE'd, a job I enjoy so much I seriously find myself looking for signals that I'm in the matrix, there's a surreal quality to life now, and more than just enjoying the work, they pay me like...Jesus.  It's so much, its hard to reconcile.  I save in a month now what I used to save in a year.  I pay more in taxes now than I used to gross.  I pay taxes now!  Talk about some bullshit!

Never would have happened if I was still "enduring" till I hit my FIRE number.  I'd be "another 400k" away or dead or both.

So, perspective.  Risk tolerance.

ChpBstrd

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 6794
  • Location: A poor and backward Southern state known as minimum wage country
Re: Easy Life Syndrome?
« Reply #38 on: January 08, 2020, 08:35:04 PM »
I thought of this thread again as I was reading "Man's Search for Meaning" by Victor Frankel. The first half is the story of someone who DID NOT live an easy life. Frankel was a concentration camp survivor who lost his entire family, all his property, everything. He spent years in a state of starvation. This is relevant to me because I fear that living an easy life has made me soft, and unprepared for the inevitable difficulties that must lie ahead. Frankel's insight was that the people who survived concentration camps all had something to live for - an imagined life back home, a loved one, or even some form of faith. Frankel observed that anyone who lost the will to get out of their bunk in the morning and walk through the snow to dig ditches all day was dead within 48 hours - often from illness. Suicide on the electric barbed wire was common.

I wonder if having an easy life leaves one poorly exercised in the techniques of finding meaning beyond the pleasure principle. Would deprivation and misfortune catch those of us with easy lives unprepared to endure, even when all satisfactions are stripped away and there is nothing but suffering? Frankel talks about how, to him, the graceful bearing of suffering became his life project, and it was enough to get him through. I cannot comprehend this, just as I cannot remember the last time I skipped a meal.

What's truly disturbing is how vigorously I oppose little attempts to impose some difficulty, such as exercise routines, skipping a late night snack, or similar. Frankel's book cemented my feelings of being soft, vulnerable, and unprepared for the mental challenges ahead.

MonkeyJenga

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 8894
  • Location: the woods
Re: Easy Life Syndrome?
« Reply #39 on: January 09, 2020, 12:00:57 AM »
You read a book about a concentration camp, and your takeaway was poor you, your life has been too easy?

Metalcat

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 17632
Re: Easy Life Syndrome?
« Reply #40 on: January 09, 2020, 04:37:25 AM »
You read a book about a concentration camp, and your takeaway was poor you, your life has been too easy?

Yeah...dude...that was NOT Frankel's point, like, AT ALL.

ChpBstrd

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 6794
  • Location: A poor and backward Southern state known as minimum wage country
Re: Easy Life Syndrome?
« Reply #41 on: January 09, 2020, 06:22:19 AM »
Geez internet people. The point is, Frankel was strong. I on the other hand, am weak in a way his strength reveals.

NotJen

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1640
  • Location: USA
Re: Easy Life Syndrome?
« Reply #42 on: January 09, 2020, 06:51:45 AM »
You read a book about a concentration camp, and your takeaway was poor you, your life has been too easy?

Yeah...dude...that was NOT Frankel's point, like, AT ALL.

Right?  I'm confused by your post, because you made a great point, but then went immediately back to being defeatist.

Frankel's insight was that the people who survived concentration camps all had something to live for - an imagined life back home, a loved one, or even some form of faith.
Quote
What's truly disturbing is how vigorously I oppose little attempts to impose some difficulty, such as exercise routines, skipping a late night snack, or similar. Frankel's book cemented my feelings of being soft, vulnerable, and unprepared for the mental challenges ahead.

Have you built a life that gives you something to live for?

Guess what?  You can be as strong as Frankel (probably, I haven't read the book).  You just have to realize it.

ender

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7402
Re: Easy Life Syndrome?
« Reply #43 on: January 09, 2020, 07:06:34 AM »
I took a new job recently and one of the primary reasons was to avoid complacency. It will be more stressful overall and have worse worklife balance, at least in the short term.

I find it difficult to be complacent in one large area of my life while not being complacent in others.

I'm reading a book now about growing up in the Dakotas (as a white settler) and what strikes me is how much of their lives were work - for survival. A massively higher percentage of their lives than mine. Said another way, my free/leisure time is an order of magnitude higher.

@Malkynn hit on a good point that is fear/risk avoidance contributes to complacency too.

Anyways and YMMV on this, but I do think that some people manage to segment their lives better and keep "laziness" or "easy life syndrome" from crossing borders from work into their personal lives. Myself? I can't segment well. I have already found that while taking a newer job is making me feel differently about all areas of my life - not just my new job - and I see them a lot more deliberately/focused than I did prior.

Even though my personal health for example was not remotely related to this new job, I find myself focusing more and acting more on it than I did prior (with more time, etc).

@ChpBstrd one thing to consider is what your focus of life has been. Your "north star" so to speak, even if you haven't explicitly articulated it.

A lot of people in the MMM world focus on pursuing leisure/comfort/total freedom. Those were not goals for many historical generations to the degree they are for folks pursuing/interested in FIRE. Very few people in 2020 who post on the MMM forums have as their primary goal survival.

If that is your goal you've been subconsciously or even consciously pursuing, you should not be overly surprised to feel "easy life syndrome." Because it's literally been your goal.

Metalcat

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 17632
Re: Easy Life Syndrome?
« Reply #44 on: January 09, 2020, 07:15:14 AM »
Geez internet people. The point is, Frankel was strong. I on the other hand, am weak in a way his strength reveals.

I still maintain that that is absolutely not the point of Frankel's writing, and it's distressing to me that you have such a strong lens through which you are perceiving things that you even perceive Frankel through that lens.

Frankel's work has very very little to do with being strong or weak, it's about everyone having the capacity to decide how to react to anything and everything in their lives, no matter how difficult.

If "being weak" is difficult for you, then you have 100% control over how you react to that. You are choosing to react by beating yourself up, which is your right, but it's kind of nuts.

Have you ever done any really meaningful volunteering, especially with really compromised populations? I feel like that would really help you shake up your perspective and give you some challenges that will force you to develop some resilience.

Working with battered/sexually assaulted women and children, children with severe special needs, cancer patients, palliative patients, addicts, sex workers, victims of war, etc, have all been experiences that were impossibly difficult and traumatizing for me, but because I was the comfortable and safe one providing the help, I was definitely not the fucking victim in the room. Being forced to be INCREDIBLY uncomfortable while helping someone else whose suffering makes your discomfort laughable, really really goes a long way to hammering home how precious your privileges are.

I'm grateful every single day for not having to be tougher than I am.

Basically, if this is a legitimate problem for you, then do something about it. That's what Frankel would recommend.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2020, 07:18:33 AM by Malkynn »

talltexan

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5344
Re: Easy Life Syndrome?
« Reply #45 on: January 09, 2020, 07:18:14 AM »
Survival cannot be in question when a 60% savings rate is possible. One of the underlying themes of the Mustachian movement is that society has become so affluent that we can accumulate savings while optimizing happiness. We are nowhere near the survival threshold.

SunnyDays

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3524
Re: Easy Life Syndrome?
« Reply #46 on: January 09, 2020, 11:56:24 AM »
Geez internet people. The point is, Frankel was strong. I on the other hand, am weak in a way his strength reveals.

You believe you're weak because your inner strength has never been tested.  It will, one day.  Then you'll find out how strong or weak you are.

Wrenchturner

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1341
  • Age: 36
  • Location: Canada
Re: Easy Life Syndrome?
« Reply #47 on: January 09, 2020, 12:17:22 PM »
Geez internet people. The point is, Frankel was strong. I on the other hand, am weak in a way his strength reveals.

You believe you're weak because your inner strength has never been tested.  It will, one day.  Then you'll find out how strong or weak you are.

Exactly this.  And it will be cathartic, for better or worse.

The flood is coming.  It will hit you, one day.  It hits everyone.

Modern men have the luxury of waiting for it and enjoying the cowardice that entails.

Perhaps your current laziness and future regret are part of your destiny!