Author Topic: Vanguard Trust Fund  (Read 1390 times)

cocopebbles

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Vanguard Trust Fund
« on: January 22, 2021, 03:25:43 PM »
I just had my first baby and he is 5 months old now. Already we are being inundated with useless trinkets, clothes, playthings, etc from relatives. I have successfully persuaded a number of relatives to contribute towards a savings account for him instead (thank goodness). The only problem is I don't actually know where to put this money. I'm not interested in a 529 as I would prefer something with more flexibility for him. I've considered a trust fund with Vanguard as that's where I send our extra income, but I know nothing about setting up a trust. Is this something I must involve a lawyer in? Or can I simply set up a trust through Vanguard and contribute money to it and leave it at that? I would probably have the entire amount transferred at 25 yo or split it between 25 yo and 35 yo. How have others set up their trusts?

Beach_Stache

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Re: Vanguard Trust Fund
« Reply #1 on: January 23, 2021, 07:54:15 AM »
We have so many "parsed out" accounts within our normal accounts setup for kid stuff.  We try to set all our bills and investing/saving on auto-pilot.  So we have 3 separate 529 plans for our kids, but that's our contributions, then we have a "kids savings" account via Capital One which has birthday money and money we include every paycheck, which grows as we don't typically take money out, but this is our "emergency fund" for kids, so things like braces or if we eventually get them a used car when they're old enough, or for additional college funds when they run low on Ramen.  Birthday money and a small amount of auto-money goes in here.  Then we have a "kids investment account" that we just call that as we setup when the kids were born and we got gifts and stuff from family.  We auto-invest $200/month in this (was $0 at first, then $100 as things got easier, now $200 now that no kids are in daycare).

DW and the boys are beneficiaries on everything, I don't like the idea of putting our money into their names while we're still around, as we don't want free loaders.  I like the idea of us paying for most of college via 529 plans, but we want them to have summer jobs through HS and College that they have to contribute to.  I have no problem with "hand outs" if they are working hard, I just don't want to create free loaders.  So the accounts are all ours (529 specifically designated for school), so if they don't need them we can use them, if they are hard workers and we want to help w/a down payment for a house one day or something like that then we can.  If we get to a point where we don't need it then we can spoil grandchildren, or support a family "lifetime vacation fund" where we always pay for the yearly trip to the beach or something like that.

So I think it depends what you want your kids future to be like, for us we want to raise financially responsible kids, they don't need to be MMM's like us, but they need to learn about the power of money (good and bad sides), the value of things and how to work hard for them.  If they are good people when they're adults, I don't mind supplementing things.  But if they're pissing money away on stupid stuff, we certainly won't fund that lifestyle for them.  They can make their own mistakes, but not w/our money.

secondcor521

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Re: Vanguard Trust Fund
« Reply #2 on: January 23, 2021, 11:41:07 AM »
Is this something I must involve a lawyer in? Or can I simply set up a trust through Vanguard and contribute money to it and leave it at that? I would probably have the entire amount transferred at 25 yo or split it between 25 yo and 35 yo. How have others set up their trusts?

You have several options.

You can set up a trust that transfers the amounts at the ages you specify.  If you do this, you should use a lawyer.  If you do this, Vanguard can handle a trust account (i.e., you can open the trust account with Vanguard and invest inside the trust account as you wish).  Do note that trust accounts require their own federal and state income tax returns if the income from the trust is above a very minor level ($100 or $600, I'd have to go look).  Also, trust tax returns are different from normal tax returns.  Also, trust income tax rates and brackets are very aggressive, so you'd pay more in taxes.

You can open UTMA accounts.  These are essentially boilerplate trusts to help people who don't want to pay a lawyer and have complicated trust tax returns to prepare.  Any money contributed becomes the kids' money, any income is reported on the kids' tax return, and the kid gets control of the money at the age of majority in your state (which is usually 18 or 21).

You can just open a separate taxable account in your name at Vanguard that you earmark as for your kids.  This will cause the income to be taxed at your rate, but it's easy to do and you have complete control over when you want to distribute the money.  If you already have a taxable account for yourself at Vanguard, that's OK; you can have more than one.

Finally, you could reconsider 529s.  I understand your point about flexibility, but I think 529s can be considered semi-flexible.  They can be transferred tax free to pretty much any family member, including any potential younger siblings or cousins or nieces/nephews or even yourself.  You can withdraw tax free for tuition, fees, and internet/computer stuff at any college, as well as high school tuition up to $10K per year, and $10K per person student loans.  If they get scholarships, money can be withdrawn penalty-free (but not tax-free).  Any taxes and penalties are only on the portion of the withdrawal due to earnings, not the entire amount.

...

Regarding your last question:

I have a testamentary trust currently in my will (it gets created and funded when I die), and I forget exactly how I set it up but it has distributions of 1/3 at age 25/30/35 I think.  My kids are 25/21/19, and I think that when I next revise my will I'm going to remove that distribution schedule and the trust and just let them have the money immediately.  They're all mature enough now to realize they have one shot at it, and I don't want to burden my sister (my executrix) with the hassle of managing the trust account for another decade after I die if I should happen to die soon enough to where the distribution schedule comes into play.

My Dad and Mom had a marital bypass trust which they set up in an effort to avoid estate taxes, which it would have had the tax laws remained the same as they were in 1999.  The lawyer bills to write up the trust documents were probably in the high hundreds low thousands.  The lawyer bills to help with the trust establishment when my Mom died, and then to change the trust after the fact, and then the CPA's bill for the first year's trust tax returns totaled in the low five digits.  Now I do the trust tax returns each year, which takes a day or two total.  Last year I collected 26 different documents, files, and spreadsheets for the trust tax returns, and that's for a very basic trust account.

maizefolk

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Re: Vanguard Trust Fund
« Reply #3 on: January 23, 2021, 12:09:23 PM »
My Dad and Mom had a marital bypass trust which they set up in an effort to avoid estate taxes, which it would have had the tax laws remained the same as they were in 1999.  The lawyer bills to write up the trust documents were probably in the high hundreds low thousands.  The lawyer bills to help with the trust establishment when my Mom died, and then to change the trust after the fact, and then the CPA's bill for the first year's trust tax returns totaled in the low five digits.  Now I do the trust tax returns each year, which takes a day or two total.  Last year I collected 26 different documents, files, and spreadsheets for the trust tax returns, and that's for a very basic trust account.

This is a very important point about trusts and one that I think is often under appreciated in the high(er) net worth communities where they are frequently discussed. They are a lot of work to set up, and operate, and amend. That means either placing a significant burden on surviving family members and/or paying a bunch of money to outside parties which isn't going to the intended beneficiaries.

cocopebbles

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Re: Vanguard Trust Fund
« Reply #4 on: January 23, 2021, 08:47:44 PM »
So I think it depends what you want your kids future to be like, for us we want to raise financially responsible kids, they don't need to be MMM's like us, but they need to learn about the power of money (good and bad sides), the value of things and how to work hard for them.  If they are good people when they're adults, I don't mind supplementing things.  But if they're pissing money away on stupid stuff, we certainly won't fund that lifestyle for them.  They can make their own mistakes, but not w/our money.

I like your ideas! My husband wants to do an investment account earmarked for our son for similar reasons, which I am fine with. The only weird thing to me is family gifts to our son going towards an investment account in our name, but I am probably overthinking that aspect. The savings account angle could be another approach.

Finally, you could reconsider 529s.  I understand your point about flexibility, but I think 529s can be considered semi-flexible.  They can be transferred tax free to pretty much any family member, including any potential younger siblings or cousins or nieces/nephews or even yourself.  You can withdraw tax free for tuition, fees, and internet/computer stuff at any college, as well as high school tuition up to $10K per year, and $10K per person student loans.  If they get scholarships, money can be withdrawn penalty-free (but not tax-free).  Any taxes and penalties are only on the portion of the withdrawal due to earnings, not the entire amount.

...

Regarding your last question:

I have a testamentary trust currently in my will (it gets created and funded when I die), and I forget exactly how I set it up but it has distributions of 1/3 at age 25/30/35 I think.  My kids are 25/21/19, and I think that when I next revise my will I'm going to remove that distribution schedule and the trust and just let them have the money immediately.  They're all mature enough now to realize they have one shot at it, and I don't want to burden my sister (my executrix) with the hassle of managing the trust account for another decade after I die if I should happen to die soon enough to where the distribution schedule comes into play.

My Dad and Mom had a marital bypass trust which they set up in an effort to avoid estate taxes, which it would have had the tax laws remained the same as they were in 1999.  The lawyer bills to write up the trust documents were probably in the high hundreds low thousands.  The lawyer bills to help with the trust establishment when my Mom died, and then to change the trust after the fact, and then the CPA's bill for the first year's trust tax returns totaled in the low five digits.  Now I do the trust tax returns each year, which takes a day or two total.  Last year I collected 26 different documents, files, and spreadsheets for the trust tax returns, and that's for a very basic trust account.

I like your points on 529s! I may reconsider them as at least part of our savings for our baby. And great points on the hassle involved with a trust - I would prefer to keep things as simple as possible, so I may avoid a trust after all. An ear marked Vanguard account in our name that we eventually transfer to him in some fashion may be the way to go.

This is a very important point about trusts and one that I think is often under appreciated in the high(er) net worth communities where they are frequently discussed. They are a lot of work to set up, and operate, and amend. That means either placing a significant burden on surviving family members and/or paying a bunch of money to outside parties which isn't going to the intended beneficiaries.

I agree - I know a few friends who are beneficiaries of a trust but never knew of the hassle of actually setting up and maintaining a trust, so this is enlightening.

I think I may open a 529 and an earmarked investment account at minimum to start with. I will likely focus our funds in the investment account but still contribute to the 529s. I do like that relatives and such can contribute easily to 529s which is appealing and may be a route to avoid discomfort with putting their money in our earmarked investment account.

Dee18

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Re: Vanguard Trust Fund
« Reply #5 on: January 24, 2021, 05:25:36 PM »
Once nice thing about the 529 is you can keep control of it as long as you want, with the child as the beneficiary. My daughter has always been pretty responsible, but I still would not have wanted her to get a big lump of money at 18 or even 21.  She used some of the 529 for room and board expenses during college (had a merit scholarship for tuition).  I also let her take out money, for which she paid the taxes which were quite low at her income bracket, for some study abroad expenses and to begin funding her Roth IRA.  When she turned 24 this year, I had the ownership transferred to her.  She used a bit for a couple grad school courses, but is saving the rest for if she decides to go on for a masters degree. 

Edited to add:  the 10% penalty is not charged if your student is withdrawing the money for other use because they don't need it due to a scholarship.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2021, 12:32:24 PM by Dee18 »

Abe

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Re: Vanguard Trust Fund
« Reply #6 on: January 24, 2021, 09:43:45 PM »
So I think it depends what you want your kids future to be like, for us we want to raise financially responsible kids, they don't need to be MMM's like us, but they need to learn about the power of money (good and bad sides), the value of things and how to work hard for them.  If they are good people when they're adults, I don't mind supplementing things.  But if they're pissing money away on stupid stuff, we certainly won't fund that lifestyle for them.  They can make their own mistakes, but not w/our money.

Agree with the above. Our son has a 529 account that the grandparents and my wife & I contribute towards. We will provide him money for other things we see fit. If he wants more, get a part-time job like his parents did. He can have some of the rest when we're dead (majority will go to charity). To answer your question: the simplest way is to just put money into a savings account in your name and give money to him when you deem it appropriate. Otherwise it's unnecessarily complicated.

DaMa

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Re: Vanguard Trust Fund
« Reply #7 on: January 25, 2021, 11:40:47 AM »
I have 529s and UTMAs for my grandchildren.  The UTMAs are theirs to do as they wish, and they collect birthday and Christmas gift money.  I consider the 529s mine and for college/trade school only.  If one doesn't go, I intend to move the money to another.

Keep in mind, you can withdraw 529 money.  You pay taxes and 10% penalty only on the gains.

EricEng

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Re: Vanguard Trust Fund
« Reply #8 on: January 25, 2021, 03:02:57 PM »
I use UTMA for our children.  However, I wouldn't do this for large amounts.  If you plan to keep it in the $10-100k range that shouldn't overwhelm them at 21.

We also have 1 529 that we will parcel out to the kids for college as we see fit and keep control of.  If nothing else, it can sit for grandchildren.

clairebonk

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Re: Vanguard Trust Fund
« Reply #9 on: January 25, 2021, 09:06:13 PM »
I have found https://www.ugift529.com the easiest way to avoid wasteful gifts and funnel loved ones money to something helpful.