Sleepovers: Yea? Nay? Why?

[APowers]

Ok friends, I have a risk assessment I don't know how to answer. My kids' school is hosting an overnight event. Middle school aged kids only, in the school building. It is a reading night/sleep-at-the-school thing.

I have always been leery of my kids doing sleepovers, and have only approved them in rare cases where I knew the other parents *very* well (highly trusted family, longtime family friends, etc).

I'm concerned about overnight stays because I know that statistically, children are much, much, much more likely to be assaulted by people they know than by strangers. How realistic am I being to be very anxious about my daughter (age 12) spending the night at school with a bunch of friends/classmates chaperoned by teachers. Obviously, I'm also worried that a teacher may be a problem as well as peer-to-peer assault.

As near as I can tell, the incident rates of rape/attempted rape are more or less comparable to the rates of hospitalization for motor vehicle accident injuries (for her age group), and about 5 times greater than that of serious injury while walking to the store. That seems awfully high to be casual about, especially if I can't be present to help mitigate that risk.

What decisions have you all made on situations like this, and why?

[nereo]

What does your daughter think about this sleepover?

[Louise]

I think the risk is very low. Usually there are parent chaperones (maybe you could volunteer) and teachers. There are quite a few adults at these functions and usually the kids are all in one big room with sleeping bags.

[reeshau]

Will she have a way to check in with you during the event?  Being at school, I wonder if the typical no devices rule during class rule would apply.

Barring that, is there a member of staff you do know and trust, that could be your person on the inside?  Or, if your daughter really wants to go, would you be willing to volunteer, in order to support her?

[charis]

We don't do sleepovers very much at all.  Each of my kids was 10 before they were allowed to and the pandemic pushed that back for my oldest.  At this point, they've each spent the night somewhere else just once and we've hosted two overnights (apart from when their cousins are visiting). 

I would find out the details about where the kids are spending their time and sleeping, who they are sleeping with (are the boys and girls being separated with female and male teachers).  And talk to your child about what to do if anyone does anything that makes them uncomfortable - immediately go to trusted adult or another teacher if anything makes them feel nervous, weird, etc.  I think it's very unlikely that something bad will happen in this scenario. 

I did a lock in with a bunch of church youth groups when I was a kid and my own kids attend overnight camp.   I had to let go of some of my paranoia, because while there is always some risk, you try to make the best decision with the information you have while letting your child have these types of once in lifetime childhood experiences. 

[tooqk4u22]

At the risk of stating the obvious.....it is hard being a parent.   Aside from all the things parents are supposed to do (food, shelter, love, etc) worrying is probably the number one thing that comes with the territory.  Parents (most anyway) are master worriers......there is always something to worry about, and when you get those brief moments where you are not worried you then become worried about missing something you should be worried about. 

But back on topic, yeah sleepover stuff is a hard one.   Our schools have a similar thing but it was for like 3 or 4 nights (prepandemic) for 6th graders and no phones/devices permitted.....oy that was nerve racking but we allowed it bc it was school sanctioned, and they all had a great experience. We only permitted friend sleepovers if we had known/met the parents and had their cell numbers and confirmed knowledge of sleepover and that they would be home.   

You would be amazed at how many kids have been dropped off at our house for sleepovers and the parents never met us or even confirmed with us.  Nope!

A lot of kids go to sleepover Summer camps and sports/music/activity camps, how do you feel about those?

And yes, it's far more stressful/worrisome foe my daughter than it was for my sons.   It shouldn't be that way but for me it is.   

In summary, we have allowed it as they need to live and explore to grow, while we sit at home biting our nails and pulling our hair out until they return the next morning.

And do not be one of those parents that demands or encourages your kid to text you every moment of every interaction....that is also not healthy but more importantly they will miss the experience and it risks being alienated feom their peers.  It's a balance.

BTW, the sleepover worries pales in comparison to new driver out and about worries.....so something to look forward to.

[FINate]

As a general rule we don't allow sleepovers.

But we're fine with most structured overnight events with vetted chaperones. For us, this needs to be a group setting (no 1:1) with accountability and adult supervision.

[Chris Pascale]

Volunteer to be there.

Sleepovers are honestly a pretty standard part of childhood, IMO.

One of my daughters had a friend in high school who was not allowed to sleep at anyone's home, but was allowed to have people at her's. After she knew this friend maybe 6 months we were okay with her sleeping over, and when the mom told my wife that her daughter could never sleepover at someone's, my wife just said, 'no problem, but if you were thinking of letting her sleep at our home, we don't have any guns or alcohol, and only have daughters.'

As she was saying this, she could see the mom's wheels turning, as she had to recognize she had all the rational things to be concerned about.

The girl actually did sleep at our house eventually, and it was fairly momentous, as I'd been told that when the mom tried to let her do this once before she drove over to the home in the middle of the night in a panic to get her.

[APowers]

Trying to respond to y'all without quoting, but generally in order:

My daughter would be sad if I told her she couldn't stay overnight (there is an option to stay until 10pm instead of overnight, but it isn't the same thing, I know.).

Yes, there will be multiple teacher chaperones, and afaik, it is all the kids+teachers in one room. But "teachers will be there" is small comfort if one of the risks is teacher/student misconduct.

I doubt the school-day rules about electronics will apply, so she would have access to her cell and could call/text me, as she would with any other sleepover situation.

I am even less okay with a multi-night summer camp than I am with this type of single-night event. Statistically, way more likely something can go wrong, and anecdotally have heard way too many horror stories and not enough rave reviews.

tooqk4u22: I do not push my kids to message me at every turn of events-- I actually try really hard to give them space to have their whole experience to themselves, and then ask them about it afterwards. I like to think that allows them to fully engage while they're present, and gives them practice situational analysis as I debrief with them.

I feel less worried about them as a driver, because while the danger level is high, it's also high levels of control that she will have over how she engages; while with a sleepover scenario like this, she's in a situation where she cannot engage from a position of power-- that really concerns me. She can't engage with a potential abuser in a school context on reasonably equal footing-- there is always a power differential, and it's particularly stark in a grade-level or student/teacher context.

I too have been amazed at the expectation that kids be just dropped off without any effort to get to know me.

FINate: what do you mean by "vetted chaperone"? How do you see accountability functioning in a sleepover setting?

I recognize that sleepovers are a standard part of childhood, but that doesn't necessarily mean they are *good* for children. I don't know that the (very real) risks outweigh the (kind of nebulous) benefits.

[APowers]

A lot of you have suggested that I volunteer as a chaperone. I did, and am approved as of a few hours ago. So, immediate crisis averted, but it still doesn't answer my question of how to actually evaluate how much risk there are in these kinds of situations to weigh against the benefit of....social....independence? relationship building?

[charis]

I think you are conflating the general statistical occurrence of child abuse with occurrence at sleepovers (and even overnight camps).  All situations are not equal.  Unfortunately, the vast majority of child abuse occurs within the child's home by a household member or close family friend.  If you can find stats on occurrence of abuse at a school event like this, I think you will find the risk to be very small.   

[APowers]

I think you are conflating the general statistical occurrence of child abuse with occurrence at sleepovers (and even overnight camps).  All situations are not equal.  Unfortunately, the vast majority of child abuse occurs within the child's home by a household member or close family friend.  If you can find stats on occurrence of abuse at a school event like this, I think you will find the risk to be very small.

I specifically looked at abuse occurrence rates at school for her age group, not just general overall child abuse, because I didn't want to conflate the wrong statistics. Yes, I know that most abusers are family and family friends, which is why I currently have a rule of no sleepovers at friends' homes.

[Louise]

I've always just trusted my instincts to be honest. I've never looked at statistics. I think ignorance is bliss when dealing with kids sometimes. I let my DD go to sleepaway camp when she was eight or nine. It was a Girl Scout camp so I thought it was pretty OK. She had a blast and went for a few more years after that. I've always allowed sleepovers. But, in our case DD went to a very small elementary and MS, so I knew all of her friends' parents.

Last year she went on a week long class trip to DC with her class. I thought it was a great step towards independence. In HS, she will have the opportunity to go overseas with her class. I am a little nervous about that, just because she will be so far away. I'll still let her go though if she wants to.

Sometimes you just have to let go and trust that all will be OK. Also, don't be afraid to talk to your kids about keeping themselves safe, avoiding certain situations, etc. Sometimes it seems like it might make them fearful, but I think in DD's case it made her more savvy.

[FINate]

FINate: what do you mean by "vetted chaperone"? How do you see accountability functioning in a sleepover setting?

If these are teacher chaperones then they've been vetted by the school district. Criminal background checks, hiring process, etc. They are also mandatory reporters, so if someone is doing something abusive (another teacher or kid) then they are required to report it and face legal liability if they fail to do so. This, along with it being a group setting, increases accountability.

Our concerns with sleeping over at a friend's house is only partially that we may not know the parents well. Mostly it's that once parents go to sleep there's no adult supervision. Are there guns in the house? Drugs? Alcohol? Access to porn? And even if the parents are trustworthy, what about an older sibling in the house? Or a visiting cousin, or whatever. A structured sleepover with dedicated chaperones avoids these issues for us.

[Laura33]

Sounds like you've addressed the current issue already by chaperoning, but IMO these group sleepovers are a very low-risk  event, specifically because there are multiple chaperones, and everyone is concerned about kids being alone and getting into trouble.  Seems to me it would be much harder for an abuser to separate out a child and get them alone for any meaningful period.

Beyond that, though, the reality is that you will never be able to protect your daughter from all the situations that pose some degree of risk, nor would it be healthy for either of you if you were to try.  It is far better to focus on teaching her to manage herself -- to identify dangerous situations, to trust her instincts, to know various approaches people may use, and to defend herself physically if necessary.  This is particularly important and valuable at her current age.  Middle school can be unadulterated hell; the kids are changing so rapidly, they are seeking independence while needing the security of their family, the hormones send them to hell and back multiple times every day, school cliques can form and make life miserable, and particularly for girls the expectations about looks and clothes and behavior can seem overwhelming. 

The best antidote to that is self-confidence.  And how do kids build self-confidence?  They tackle things on their own and prove to themselves they can do it.  It's a virtuous cycle:  your kid faces something that intimidates her; she manages it; she then builds confidence in herself, which makes her better able to face the next situation.  So the best thing you can do is not protect her, but to give her the skills and knowledge to protect herself.  Your daughter won't feel so vulnerable to being taken advantage of if she knows what to do -- knows how to avoid or extricate herself from that kind of situation and knows how to handle it if it happens nevertheless.  Even something as simple as martial arts can help; my DD took karate from a guy who often had them basically wrestle, because as he explained to us, he wanted the kids to be used to grappling with/defending themselves against another person, rather than freezing up if they're actually faced with that situation in the real world. 

FWIW, I did go through this with my own DD.  It is absolutely terrifying to set them loose on the world unprotected (although my concerns were more about her getting herself into trouble vs. what someone else might do -- nothing like an ADHD/impulsive kid who was too smart and determined for her own good!).  And yet at that age, it is entirely natural and developmentally appropriate for kids to separate from their parents and push for independence.  If I didn't let my DD do something, she saw it not as me keeping her safe, but as me not trusting her to be able to handle something.  Which, of course, just made her more determined to do it and prove that she could do it, and damaged our relationship in the process.  In the end, I had to acknowledge that my DH's instincts to allow her to try something were better for her, long-term, than my own instincts to protect her.

So my own mantra was that I'm not raising children, I'm raising adults.  My job wasn't to say no -- it was to find a way to say yes, and to focus my own efforts on equipping her with what she needed to succeed (while still ensuring that there were sufficient guardrails in place to ensure that the cost of failure wasn't too high).  In your DD's case, in 5-6 years, she will be off on her own, without you guys there at all.  Things like school sleepovers are exactly the kind of baby steps she should be taking now to be ready to handle true independence in a few years.  So what can you do to give her that independence while helping her feel and be safe?  I'm entirely confident you've given her the talks about not letting people get her alone, etc.  What else?  Maybe you can get her a keychain with an emergency alarm on it that she can use if she's cornered or feels unsafe?  Maybe for each of these things, you and she can identify an adult she trusts that she can go to, no questions asked, if she feels unsure or unsafe?  Maybe you can practice a situation and brainstorm things she can say/do?  Maybe there's a local self-defense class?  There are many options out there.

[GuitarStv]

I had many sleepovers at different friends places when I was a kid, and think that it was very good for me.  You see how other families function (sometimes wildly different than your own), get exposure to different foods, different ways of living, and it brings you closer to your friends.  As has been mentioned, it's a baby step to independence.  I have no concerns about my son sleeping over with his friends provided I know the parents.

[Chris Pascale]

I had many sleepovers at different friends places when I was a kid, and think that it was very good for me.  You see how other families function (sometimes wildly different than your own), get exposure to different foods, different ways of living, and it brings you closer to your friends.  As has been mentioned, it's a baby step to independence.  I have no concerns about my son sleeping over with his friends provided I know the parents.

Best part of sleeping over somewhere is that they have different snacks than you.

[reeshau]

So my own mantra was that I'm not raising children, I'm raising adults.  My job wasn't to say no -- it was to find a way to say yes, and to focus my own efforts on equipping her with what she needed to succeed

+1

On the way home from the maternity ward, I told DW "Now we begin 18 years of gradually letting go."  Every step has struggles, and we remember our childhood, and see DS persevere, then move on to the next thing.  Until we are all ready for him to leave the nest.

[Log]

As a general response: I was a kid not too long ago, and I don't recall knowing anyone who was totally barred from sleeping over at friends' houses. And my understanding is that this ever-increasing escalation of protective parenting is really not great for kids. The likelihood that something catastrophically bad will happen to your kid to lack of supervision is low. Never practicing independence in childhood/adolescence, however, is almost certain to have negative impacts.

As a specific response to a school-sanctioned event in a shared space with a lot of teachers and chaperones: no-brainer yes. That's about as safe as you can get.

I can certainly not relate to how hard it must be as a parent to let go. But I can relate to how hard it is to be a young person in our present era of technology. These opportunities for kids to spend significant chunks of real, face-to-face time together are precious.

[FINate]

WSJ did a piece on the sleepover wars earlier this year: https://www.wsj.com/articles/sleepovers-divide-parents-allow-or-not-d9b8072c

It's not as simple (or negative) as "overprotective parenting" which is similar to when people complain about the "nanny state" with reference to things like seat belt and helmet laws.

Kids are pack animals -- get a bunch together, stay up all night, lots of sugar, no adult supervision -- and a Lord of the Flies mentality takes over. We know, because DW and I both had rather negative experiences at sleepovers. Like, abusive stuff that no reasonable parent would say "yeah, that's fine" if they were in the room.

As for the claimed benefits of sleepovers: there are a million different ways to get these. Our kids spend a significant amount of time at friends' houses. They eat snacks there! Sometimes they eat dinner there! They experience a different family culture. There's nothing uniquely special about staying up all night that adds to the experience.

Then there's the issue of keeping peace among parents. The point of getting to know parents is figuring out if you actually trust them to be reasonable. What do you do when, after you get to know a family, you decide you don't really trust them for sleepovers?  So their kid can sleep over at our house, but not vice versa? What about when your 9 year old is allowed to sleep over at some houses, but not others? Kids ask questions, and at best you're left just saying "no" without giving a reason, because if you say "we don't trust their parents" this will make it back to them.  While this isn't the main reason we don't allow sleepovers, it does mean we somewhat avoid this mess.

OP started this thread asking it as a risk assessment question, which is a great way to think about parenting. Parents are *constantly* calculating risk vs. reward. We encourage our kids to roam the neighborhood freely, go shopping on their own, go to the park with friends, work side jobs, etc. because in our specific context the risk are low and this type of freedom is great for their development. But we set geographic boundaries, such as roads that are too busy and dangerous for them to cross, or requiring that they cross certain streets at intersections with signaled crosswalks.

The risk vs. reward for sleepovers just doesn't make sense for us. The rates around sexual violence in the US are sad and shocking. With over half of females experiencing sexual violence in their lifetime, and 4/5 of this starting before age 25, it's just not worth the risk relative to the very minor benefits, especially since these benefits aren't unique to sleepovers.

[Dee18]

I had never heard of school sleepovers before; my first response was, "so glad my school system did not have them."  I think the most important thing here is to discern how your daughter truly feels about it.  Is she totally comfortable with the plan?  Does she have close friends she will actually get to be with during the sleepover?  Has she spent the night with any of those friends before and had a good time?  Or does she only want to go to not be left out? 

[Sibley]

Got a scenario for you.

Your 18 year old daughter moves into her college dorm room for her first year of college. Mom and dad go home, the excitement wears off, and a few days later you're woken up at midnight by the phone ringing. Your daughter is on the phone, sobbing inconsolably, wants to come home, homesick and scared because it's strange and not home and she's tired and overwhelmed and incapable of coping.

What do you do?

This happened to my roommate in college. The root cause: she'd never been away from her family before. Never stayed overnight with family not her parents. Never spent the night at a friend's house. Never went to overnight camp. She'd been kept safe, but at the cost of not learning how to be on her own. So when she was on her own, she was unprepared. She couldn't cope. The first few months were hell for her - she had no practical, independent living skills, she struggled hard with self-regulation of meals and food and gained weight as a result then swung too far in the other direction and got sick loosing weight too fast. And she partied hard. I don't think she had sex or experimented with hard drugs, but she certainly drank way too much.

Back to my roommate sobbing, eventually she quieted down enough that I was able to get back to sleep. And she didn't have a repeat of that night, not that I was aware of. But she also looked pretty tired for a week or so as she wasn't sleeping well.

Yes, there's risk. What you're forgetting is that there is ALWAYS risk. If you don't let your daughter go to a sleepover, you may have avoided one set of risks, but you will have exposed her to a completely different set of risks.

You don't have a crystal ball to see the future. It's not easy. But remember that in the end, your parenting skills and decisions will be judged by your children. And possibly their college roommates.

And for the record, I went to the library sleep over in middle school. It was fine, though I was annoyed at the games rather than getting to read all night. I also went to overnight camp, and stayed with relatives and friends. It was fine. Are there instances where it's not ok? Yes. But those are not universal.

[GilesMM]

I had many sleepovers at different friends places when I was a kid, and think that it was very good for me.  You see how other families function (sometimes wildly different than your own), get exposure to different foods, different ways of living, and it brings you closer to your friends.  As has been mentioned, it's a baby step to independence.  I have no concerns about my son sleeping over with his friends provided I know the parents.

I agree. We encourage sleepovers.

[FINate]

Golly. OP, you aren't going to damage your daughter by disallowing sleepovers. If you're not comfortable with how this one is organized then don't do it. Trust your gut instinct as a parent if something seems off. As for future college peers judging your parenting, who cares, lol. You're the parent, no one knows your kid like you, and college students (and most adults w/o kids) don't really have a concept of what it means to be a parent.

Homesickness is a very common and normal part of going away to college, regardless of how many sleepovers one has participated in. If your kids get to adulthood and the worst thing they experience is being sad and uncomfortable going off to college, contrats and great job, you win! Certainly far far better then a lifetime dealing with sexual trauma.

There will be other opportunities in the future. Now is probably a good time to consider what you require to allow a sleepover. If not at school, maybe there's a camp or something similar that you would be comfortable with.

[maisymouser]

I am really surprised to see the percentage of mustachians who are generally not pro-sleepover. My kid is five and I think he had his first sleepover at 4 and has had a few since, all at the same house with the same family we have been friends with for a few years. It has been nice to have the occasional break in the late evenings/mornings and to let him socialize (he is an only child)- I might add that we save some babysitting money this way too.

I am fairly trusting and I plan to let him sleep over at houses of parents that I know more than being just acquaintances. I prefer to tour the house to see if there are any glaring safety hazards. But beyond that, I don't think there's much more I can do to reduce the "risk" involved with trusting that my child will be okay without me directly supervising him. I found it interesting that a comparison was made to motor vehicle injuries, which are certainly significant but would not prevent me from driving my kid to go on errands or take fun trips, for instance.

This might change for me as he grows up, but for now I'm excited that he is having sleepover experiences and has the confidence and trust that he can be okay without us every night.

It's a personal decision, and I don't fault anyone who means one way or the other. At this point in my parenting journey I just respect anyone who makes it through parenthood alive and (mostly) well.

[Laura33]

Trust your gut instinct as a parent if something seems off. As for future college peers judging your parenting, who cares, lol.

The problem with trusting your gut is that your gut is entirely subjective; I guarantee that if you ask both helicopter parents and neglectful parents, most of them would say that they trust their gut and what they're doing is fine.  I would modify that to say trust your gut, but periodically challenge your gut, too, to make sure you're reacting appropriately to the risks and rewards -- talk to others, do research on the issue, evaluate what protective measures you can take, etc.  FWIW, I think that is what the OP is doing here, and we are all giving our thoughts on different aspects of the issue that OP may not have thought about.

And I could not care less how future college peers view my parenting.  What I do care about, very deeply, is whether my kid is going to be prepared to move out of the house and live independently.  I don't want my kid to be the kid in Sibley's story, because that's not healthy for my kid, period. 

Obviously, sleepovers are not the only way to get there.  But it is hard to let go; we have to make an intentional choice to allow our kid to face a current risk in order to achieve a longer-term benefit.  Think about it:  most people struggle with delayed gratification, which requires prioritizing future happiness over present happiness.  Most people are also pain avoidant -- they value avoiding loss more than they value achieving a gain.  So choosing the risk of current pain is even harder than simply saving money for the future or foregoing the cookie at lunch.  And yet that is exactly what we have to do in order to allow our kids to develop appropriately.

Which is why I go back to the "trust but verify" approach to gut responses.  Our gut is going to naturally lead us to protect our children from pain and risk.  And yet that's exactly what our kids need (in reasonable, age-appropriate doses).  Which means we need to challenge our natural protective instincts, repeatedly, to make sure that we're striking the right balance between protection and independence. 

[FINate]

Trust your gut instinct as a parent if something seems off. As for future college peers judging your parenting, who cares, lol.

The problem with trusting your gut is that your gut is entirely subjective; I guarantee that if you ask both helicopter parents and neglectful parents, most of them would say that they trust their gut and what they're doing is fine.  I would modify that to say trust your gut, but periodically challenge your gut, too, to make sure you're reacting appropriately to the risks and rewards -- talk to others, do research on the issue, evaluate what protective measures you can take, etc.  FWIW, I think that is what the OP is doing here, and we are all giving our thoughts on different aspects of the issue that OP may not have thought about.

And I could not care less how future college peers view my parenting.  What I do care about, very deeply, is whether my kid is going to be prepared to move out of the house and live independently.  I don't want my kid to be the kid in Sibley's story, because that's not healthy for my kid, period. 

Obviously, sleepovers are not the only way to get there.  But it is hard to let go; we have to make an intentional choice to allow our kid to face a current risk in order to achieve a longer-term benefit.  Think about it:  most people struggle with delayed gratification, which requires prioritizing future happiness over present happiness.  Most people are also pain avoidant -- they value avoiding loss more than they value achieving a gain.  So choosing the risk of current pain is even harder than simply saving money for the future or foregoing the cookie at lunch.  And yet that is exactly what we have to do in order to allow our kids to develop appropriately.

Which is why I go back to the "trust but verify" approach to gut responses.  Our gut is going to naturally lead us to protect our children from pain and risk.  And yet that's exactly what our kids need (in reasonable, age-appropriate doses).  Which means we need to challenge our natural protective instincts, repeatedly, to make sure that we're striking the right balance between protection and independence.

Agreed. To be clear, by trusting one's gut, I mean OP in this specific situation, not generally in all things. As a parent, when my spidey sense tingles I've learned to pay attention to this. If something seems off with a person or situation, the default is to go with my instinct to protect my kids in that moment even if I can't quite articulate the problem.

My goal as a parent is to develop confidence, competency, resilience, and responsibility in my kids. If parents are intentionally utilizing sleepovers to develop these things, great! But again, I think this is highly individual and depends on each kid, their friend group, your community, and so on. For our family, there's nothing sleepovers* provide that lots of other experience don't already provide, so we've decided it's not worth the risk or the hassle.

*Specifically, unstructured sleepovers at friends' houses. We do certain summer camps and church camps because these have oversight from vetted adults and policies and procedures to greatly reduce the potential for abuse.

[index]

It sounds like engaging a good therapist to help with some rational decision making would be valuable. If you have a specific fear about a particular teacher or dangerous school environment it should be addressed regardless of the sleepover.  Performing a risk assessment where you are extrapolating a statistic from the internet is not rational and that style of decision making isn't sustainable long term.

[PoutineLover]

I'm really looking forward to my daughter enjoying sleepovers when she's old enough. Some of my best memories were sleeping over at friend's houses, staying up late, making forts, etc. I also did some school sleepovers and overnight trips.

In my experience, there weren't necessarily opportunities for abuse at those things because we were in a group the whole time and it was a big open gym so not much privacy. Where there's a will there's a way I guess, but it seems more useful to teach a kid to recognize and avoid those situations than to try to isolate them completely.

[APowers]

Thank you all for your input! Sorry, I've been kind of awol from the thread, but I've been busy with life stuff-- chaperoning the kid's overnight, planning/building the deck (finally!), catching up on some work projects....you know the drill.

I *have* been thinking about this problem, and how best to address it. Like Laura33 said, I'm trying to figure out *how* to assess what the risks and rewards are for these types of scenarios.

It sounds like engaging a good therapist to help with some rational decision making would be valuable. If you have a specific fear about a particular teacher or dangerous school environment it should be addressed regardless of the sleepover.  Performing a risk assessment where you are extrapolating a statistic from the internet is not rational and that style of decision making isn't sustainable long term.

This response made me think-- what do you mean by "rational decision making" in this context? What about utilizing the available information about the risks of certain scenarios is not rational?

But more than this, it made me wonder why I struggle making a good risk/reward assessment for this, when I don't have a problem doing so for something like letting the kids walk to the store by themselves? My conclusion is that I don't understand nearly any of the dynamics of that situation-- having grown up in a very insular family, I have basically zero experience on which to base any kind of heuristic for either risks OR rewards. ALL the information I have is second- or third-hand, and as trustworthy as an anecdote (could be brilliant, could be outright dishelpful). With something like walking to the store-- I've done that literally thousands of times in my life, and understand on an intuitive level what there is to watch for and be aware of, which dangers can be mitigated, which dangers are uncontrollable, and what the rewards/benefits are.

Hence my comparison of school overnights to similar statistical risk-level scenarios. It is one way of comparing an unknown risk with something known and understood. It's not about a specific fear about a particular teacher-- it's that engaging with a life situation of "my kids are in public school" feels like flying blind into unknown territory-- how do you know if a mushroom foraging guide is good, if you have never even seen a mushroom before?

----------------------------

Several of y'all responded as if the concern was my kid engaging in risky behaviours and consequently getting injured-- this is not my concern. (Maybe with more hotheaded younger child, but not with bookworm eldest daughter with big Mom energy). My concern is with not knowing how to assess adults who *should* be safe people but aren't. Parents, even of great kids, aren't necessarily good people. I trust my daughter, but how do I evaluate someone I entrust with her safety in a scenario where she is not in charge of her own self? This goes for babysitters, teachers, friends' parents, camp staff, church volunteers, etc.

I'm not trying to shield my kids from pain or independence. I AM trying to protect them from catastrophe that they can neither see to avoid nor recover from if it happens to them.

[Sibley]

Ah, that makes sense. How can you possibly determine if letting your kid do this or that if you fundamentally have no idea what that actually is? Step one then is getting that information. Regarding school events, ask the teacher or other staff. "Hey, just wondering what you actually do on a library sleepover? I didn't have that opportunity growing up." They'll be happy to tell you about the schedule, games, etc. Parents, especially those with slightly older children, can probably tell you a lot as well. Getting to know your kid's friend's parents has multiple benefits. Social media can be helpful too. I know there's a FB group specifically for parents in my town's school district for example.

But also, remember that your children will increasingly get to make their own decisions and you're just going to have  deal with it. Even when its a bad decision. There will be a point in time where your "no" is meaningless and actively damages your relationship with your kid. You're not there yet, but its coming. Telling a teen a flat "no" is generally counterproductive. Telling a 19 year old that means you may not see said 19 year old much if they decide they're done with you.

And sometimes, you just go with the flow. If everyone is doing something, and you determine that yeah, pretty much everyone is doing the thing, then good chance that you need to back off and let the kid do the thing. You may not agree, but there's consequences to forcing your kid to be left out. You felt them yourself - your parents didn't let you do all the stuff the other kids were doing. How did that make you feel then? How do you feel about that now? You're certainly struggling with real life consequences because of it.

[CrustyBadger]

My concern is with not knowing how to assess adults who *should* be safe people but aren't. Parents, even of great kids, aren't necessarily good people. I trust my daughter, but how do I evaluate someone I entrust with her safety in a scenario where she is not in charge of her own self? This goes for babysitters, teachers, friends' parents, camp staff, church volunteers, etc.

Have you read "Protecting the Gift"?

[MoseyingAlong]

....

I'm not trying to shield my kids from pain or independence. I AM trying to protect them from catastrophe that they can neither see to avoid nor recover from if it happens to them.

Hi, @APowers I am not a parent but do appreciate how much thought you are putting into raising your kids.

Unless you mean death here, I would suggest thinking more about this belief... that there are things your kids can't recover from. There are many things in life that will forever change us but one of the most important qualities to foster is resilience. We all have to recover from things. Learning how to do that is a great skill, or even being aware of the necessity is a start.
 
I wish I had been exposed to discussions about how to do that when I was younger; instead I absorbed the message to hide the wounds and faults.  That coping mechanism got me to here which I'm grateful for but I'm saddened when I think of how different my life might be if I had learned how to deal with or recover from some incidents earlier. I don't expect parents to be trained therapists. I think working on a safe place where a kid can talk about what happened good or bad is huge. So that's my wish for you and your family. Increased resilience and communication.

[Laura33]

I trust my daughter, but how do I evaluate someone I entrust with her safety in a scenario where she is not in charge of her own self? This goes for babysitters, teachers, friends' parents, camp staff, church volunteers, etc.

I'm not trying to shield my kids from pain or independence. I AM trying to protect them from catastrophe that they can neither see to avoid nor recover from if it happens to them.

One of my favorite Dr. Phil-isms is that trust isn't about trusting that the other party will never do the bad thing you are worried about.  It is about trusting yourself to handle it if they do.  Which goes back to:  teach your daughter the skills she needs to protect herself -- then let her face those risks, a bit at a time.  All those things you take for granted about walking to the store?  You didn't intuit them -- nor did you learn them all because your mom gave you a lecture about not speaking to strangers and looking both ways before crossing the street.  You learned them by facing an unknown, learning to identify risks, and identifying/implementing ways to mitigate those risks.  And the more you did it, the more your abilities to do those necessary things grew, and the more confidence you had in your ability to face other unknowns. 

It sounds like here, since this is another unknown, the "trust yourself to handle it if the shit does hit the fan" lesson applies to both your daughter and you.  After all, this sort of thing is new to you both, right?  So do your own due diligence, get your daughter as prepared as you can, and then let her go, trusting that she can manage a difficult or uncomfortable situation -- and trusting her to give her the support and guidance she would need if something bad were to happen. 

Also, avoid hyperbole in your own mental self-talk.  A "catastrophe" she can never recover from?  Yeah, no, not unless she actually dies.  The higher you think the sexual assault numbers are -- and really, they are all over the place -- the more kids you have to believe do recover from it.  I mean, if you think 40% of women are sexually assaulted at some point, do you really think 40% of women are permanently damaged to the point of not being able to function and be happy?  That is massively untrue.  When you talk about risks, focus on the real risks -- not the Big Bad Ugly that terrifies you (all of us).  IOW, what is the actual kind of sexual assault she is likely to face?  Words?  Leering?  Unwanted touching?  Yes, it's bad, and no one ever wants their kid to be exposed to that.  But people recover from things like that every day.  Actual rape?  Much less likely in that group scenario, much worse -- and yet again, people recover from it every day.  It is hard, it is terrible, it is absolutely not something we ever want our kids to face.  And yet it's also not a world-ending catastrophe that will prevent her from living a full, happy life -- certainly not with all the support she'd get from having parents who care about her as much as you do. 

I think that's what other folks meant by trying to do a rational analysis.  It's not just finding one study or a couple of anecdotes and assuming the worst version of everything.  40% of women are not raped -- they are touched, they face mental and physical aggression that is violative and not in any way ok, but that doesn't mean that they are all raped, beaten, and left for dead by the side of the road.  Look at the variety of studies, look at how they all define sexual assault, look at what the numbers are for the different types of assault, look at the numbers for family/boyfriends vs. strangers, look at the numbers by socioeconomic status -- then evaluate the real risk based on those numbers.

FWIW, I am one of that 40%:  when I was 13 on a bus to my dad's, I woke up with the guy next to me rubbing my leg, and getting really close to my privates.  I had no clue what to do; this was c. 1980, and the environment was not nearly as supportive.  So I pretended I was still asleep, shifted around, and dragged my skateboard over to smack his hand as I shifted.  You know what?  It sucked.  I felt very vulnerable, on my own, on Greyhound, with no one I trusted to turn to without fear of them laughing at me or dismissing me.  And yet I took care of it myself.  I was also mugged downtown once at around 14, again on my own; by sheer dumb luck, I threw my hot chocolate on the guy, and he ran off.  That one really scared me, because it was so sudden and unexpected.  But I handled it.  And neither one of those things had any effect on my long-term well-being -- if anything, I was proud of myself for defending myself against people who were bigger/stronger/older.   

[jeninco]

Along with all the things Laura33 said above, I wanted to point out that if you raise your kids feeling that they can have honest and open discussion with you, and being honest and open with them, there's also a strong chance that they'll be great at distinguishing between good and bad people, and choosing not to hang with the bad ones. I'm generally impressed by my kids' abilities to read other folks, and to choose to avoid the ones who don't make the "this is a good person" cut. (And that they're doing it on some legitimate version of "good", rather than just "scary because they're different from me")

[waltworks]

Assuming you live in the US, your child is growing up at the safest time, in the safest place, in all of human history.

FFS let her do activities with her friends. I shudder to think how she’ll function as an adult if you never let her have any independence.

I still don’t understand how parents raised in the 80s and 90s can be such wimps when our own childhoods were pretty darn unsupervised.

-W

[Laura33]

I still don’t understand how parents raised in the 80s and 90s can be such wimps when our own childhoods were pretty darn unsupervised.

-W

Because nowadays, if anything happens to your kid, it's deemed to be your fault for failing to provide appropriate supervision.  Particularly if you're brown or poor.  People call CPS when they see kids playing at a playground a block from home without adult supervision or walking home alone.  https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/education/free-range-parents-cleared-in-second-neglect-case-after-children-walked-alone/2015/06/22/82283c24-188c-11e5-bd7f-4611a60dd8e5_story.html.  Sure, the parents were cleared -- but who wants to be a target of an investigation for child abuse, let alone two?  Hell, I don't want to give CPS any possible reason even to know my name, because you know that once you're on their radar, you're fucked the second anything goes wrong. 

True story:  My SIL went into a store, leaving her 12-yr-old son reading in the back seat (he was way more interested in Harry Potter than shopping with mom).  When she came out, the fire department was there.  Some "helpful" lady had seen an "unsupervised child" locked into a car and called the fire department -- without even knocking on the window to see if he was ok.  My nephew, the inveterate smart-ass, demonstrated to the lady and the fire department that he could have rolled down the window if he got too hot, or even -- gasp! -- unlocked the door and gotten out of the car.  And yet the lady was still self-righteous, and my SIL was told she probably shouldn't leave him in the car anyway. 

I 100% disagree with all of this hovering (as I think you can tell by my earlier posts on the subject) and think it is far more hurtful than helpful.  But mores and expectations for parents have changed.  So I'm not going to jump in and criticize parents for being overprotective just because I got to ruin around unsupervised for hours and came out just fine. 

[nereo]

I still don’t understand how parents raised in the 80s and 90s can be such wimps when our own childhoods were pretty darn unsupervised.

-W

Because nowadays, if anything happens to your kid, it's deemed to be your fault for failing to provide appropriate supervision.  Particularly if you're brown or poor.  People call CPS when they see kids playing at a playground a block from home without adult supervision or walking home alone.  https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/education/free-range-parents-cleared-in-second-neglect-case-after-children-walked-alone/2015/06/22/82283c24-188c-11e5-bd7f-4611a60dd8e5_story.html.  Sure, the parents were cleared -- but who wants to be a target of an investigation for child abuse, let alone two?  Hell, I don't want to give CPS any possible reason even to know my name, because you know that once you're on their radar, you're fucked the second anything goes wrong. 

True story:  My SIL went into a store, leaving her 12-yr-old son reading in the back seat (he was way more interested in Harry Potter than shopping with mom).  When she came out, the fire department was there.  Some "helpful" lady had seen an "unsupervised child" locked into a car and called the fire department -- without even knocking on the window to see if he was ok.  My nephew, the inveterate smart-ass, demonstrated to the lady and the fire department that he could have rolled down the window if he got too hot, or even -- gasp! -- unlocked the door and gotten out of the car.  And yet the lady was still self-righteous, and my SIL was told she probably shouldn't leave him in the car anyway. 

I 100% disagree with all of this hovering (as I think you can tell by my earlier posts on the subject) and think it is far more hurtful than helpful.  But mores and expectations for parents have changed.  So I'm not going to jump in and criticize parents for being overprotective just because I got to ruin around unsupervised for hours and came out just fine.

Adding to what Laura33 said:

We used to say “It takes a village to raise a child”. That’s not our reality. Now we are constantly told -directly and indirectly - that it is our responsibility to manage every aspect of their lives from school drop offs to play dates, and if any aspect isn’t near perfect it is a failing of us as parents.

As Laura said, even having them standing at the bus stop unsupervised (even if it’s within visual sight of your living room) triggers complaints and reports. God forbid if you provide any type of parenting to a child who is not your own without explicit permission (much different from when I was little, when almost every neighbor adult felt it was appropriate to come out and yell at me if they thought I was up to no good. I had my ears boxed on more than one occasion for taking the lords name in vain, even though my family wasn’t terribly religious).

[ChpBstrd]

Private/religious school with no accountability except to possible abusers: Nope.

Public school: Yes.

[waltworks]

My kids take the town bus on their own and ride around on their bikes/walk where they want, etc, etc. They're 9/11 (the 4 year old obviously still stays close to us) and I've never had anyone threaten to call the cops.

I mean, in summer, it's standard practice to hand them $10 and tell them to go round up some friends and buy snacks and go mess around. Come home at dinner type stuff.

Maybe it's a big city thing mostly?

Regardless, if you're worried about a school sleepover IMO that's either straight paranoia or you need to change schools.

-W