Author Topic: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation  (Read 346974 times)

ChpBstrd

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #1600 on: February 07, 2023, 02:25:14 PM »
Back to your point though, and I'm repeating myself, my expectation is that with time Bitcoin gets better (more established, less volatile and thus less risky) and most fiats get worse (more debased). If I'm right, the Bitcoin line on the 'useful as currency vs time' chart will progressively cross the lines of the fiats. Bolivar today, Peso next year, Dinar in 8 years, USD well maybe never but you get my point.

I think you're conflating two separate concepts: utility as a currency and utility as an investment. For what it's worth, I think it's reasonably likely that 1 BTC will be worth more USD in a decade than it is now. So what? That has no bearing on how useful BTC is as a currency relative to USD. A useful currency is one in which the value is relatively stable over time (so that people can set their prices and sign contracts in terms of that currency), and one in which transactions can be completed simply and quickly. BTC is way too volatile. Even if the Lightning network solves the transaction cost/speed problem, nobody's going to sign a contract denominated in a currency whose purchasing power regularly swings back and forth 3x over the course of a year.

@seattlecyclone, what in your view will likely cause 1 BTC to be worth more USD in a decade than it is now?

Continued speculation. Note that my definition of "reasonably likely" isn't ">50% probability," it's more a statement of "I would be mostly unsurprised if this happened." In my view, any fundamental changes in the utility of a Bitcoin token explain little (if any) of the price swings in recent years. Given prior history I would hesitate to make any bets against the ability of the hype machine to bring in a new round of "greater fools" to pump the price up again and again. That's why I consider it reasonably likely that the price will increase. I also think it's reasonably likely that the price will decrease. The price of a Bitcoin has previously been something that defies most logical analysis, and I expect this trend to continue.
This whole conversation makes me think about why we gravitate to this particular subject rather than to far more concrete things. Cryptocurrencies are patterns stored on a network of servers representing intangible brands, spread virally by social media and financial media. They are described as "greater fool" investments with mysterious origins, rampant fraud, underlying technical limitations, a future utility that is purely speculative, and a complete lack of progress toward that future utility.

That's my best elevator pitch to someone who just came out of a 10-year coma. It's 100% fuzziness and ambiguity.

We could instead be talking about junk bonds or pharmaceutical micro-cap stocks and cut out 99% of the uncertainty. It would be a very concrete conversation about known facts, predictable systems and results, tangible assets backing the securities, and potential causes that will have known effects. All we'd have to solve for was the future performance of the companies, which is a cakewalk compared to predicting the future of cryptocurrency and then finding a way to profit from that.

So why do we choose to talk/think about which way the dice will roll with cryptocurrencies when we could instead be attacking more tangible questions, and arguably be making a lot more progress generating investment plans?

My theories:

1) Because traditional financial assets are so concrete and tangible, we assume EMH applies and therefore we cannot have any advantage over the markets in valuing a stock or bond. If you cannot obtain an advantage, it makes sense to just B&H an index fund. However, if cryptocurrencies are an inefficient market, where information is not necessarily connected to the price, then perhaps - people think - they can obtain a competitive advantage in this market. It is rarely made clear what the hypothetical advantage would be though.

2) Bitcoin had a run a long time ago (when markets were thin and public awareness was nil) where it gained thousands of percent in value, so people think that is possible again. There are few other imaginable investments other than lotto tickets where we can imagine that being possible. So people are multiplying infinitesimal odds against astronomical possibilities and arriving at a positive probability-weighted estimate. This is, of course, the extrapolation fallacy riding on the back of the performance-chasing fallacy. Instead of multiplying 1% odds against 5,000% returns, people should be considering how the possibility of a cryptocurrency functioning like a real currency declines every day that passes without expanded adoption for transactions.

3) Human attention is captured by little bits of unexpected illogic, and so the illogical behavior of other people bidding up cryptocoins grabs our attention in a way that 9% yields on Bed Bath & Beyond bonds do not. The bond investor is making a risk/reward tradeoff based on their assessment of likely outcomes, incorporating all available information, but WTF is the cryptocurrency buyer doing? It's a mystery, and we love mysteries, so we cannot stop thinking about it. This is related to Cunningham's Law and the observation that TikTok content creators are intentionally inserting misspellings, mispronunciations, and factual errors into their videos because doing so increases engagement. The second article describes a surgeon who erroneously said a victim of a shotgun blast was suffering from buckshot when in fact it was bird shot. Thousands of people came out of nowhere to correct the doctor over and over again. The video went viral because it contained an error, which allowed people to be smarter than a doctor and show that they know something.  Maybe cryptocurrency was a meme intentionally or unintentionally designed to be talked about on the internet, with enough ambiguity so there is an argument on both sides, and plenty of reasons to make everyone feel like they're the smart ones correcting those who are wrong on the internet.

I'm not adding a "low% of crypto" because none of these three possibilities make crypo assets a good investment. #1 is without basis, #2 is fallacious, and #3 suggests the crypto meme is a mind-virus, hacking our innate desire to make sense of our world to produce more engagement and propagation of itself. I'll stick to value-creating investments and US dollars.


LateStarter

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #1601 on: February 07, 2023, 04:43:16 PM »
Back to your point though, and I'm repeating myself, my expectation is that with time Bitcoin gets better (more established, less volatile and thus less risky) and most fiats get worse (more debased). If I'm right, the Bitcoin line on the 'useful as currency vs time' chart will progressively cross the lines of the fiats. Bolivar today, Peso next year, Dinar in 8 years, USD well maybe never but you get my point.

I think you're conflating two separate concepts: utility as a currency and utility as an investment. For what it's worth, I think it's reasonably likely that 1 BTC will be worth more USD in a decade than it is now. So what? That has no bearing on how useful BTC is as a currency relative to USD. A useful currency is one in which the value is relatively stable over time (so that people can set their prices and sign contracts in terms of that currency), and one in which transactions can be completed simply and quickly. BTC is way too volatile. Even if the Lightning network solves the transaction cost/speed problem, nobody's going to sign a contract denominated in a currency whose purchasing power regularly swings back and forth 3x over the course of a year.

Not really - I don't think the 2 things can be completely separated. A useful currency must have some utility as a store-of-value to be of any practical use - otherwise you have to run to the store with your wheelbarrow full of Reichsmarks while they can still pay for your groceries.

Your point seems to be that Bitcoin is not a good currency today because it is volatile. I agree.

My point was that I expect that volatility to decrease and other aspects also to improve, thus Bitcoin will progressively become a better currency over time.

MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #1602 on: February 07, 2023, 05:32:02 PM »
...
This whole conversation makes me think about why we gravitate to this particular subject rather than to far more concrete things.
...
We could instead be talking about junk bonds or pharmaceutical micro-cap stocks and cut out 99% of the uncertainty.
You don't understand why people talk about crypto in the thread dedicated to talking about crypto?

It sounds like you want to ignore crypto, but can't ignore this thread.  Maybe when this thread rises to the top, and people see it, that draws their attention.  A better solution might be a sticky crypto thread, so people can more easily ignore it if they choose.

LateStarter

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #1603 on: February 07, 2023, 05:37:46 PM »
LateStarter - Interesting, it does seem internet browsers existed on phones, so your point about iPhone makes more sense.  Maybe the iPhone interface drove adoption?  Worldwide, I believe iPhone currently has a fairly small market share of a very large market.  So definite mitigating factors in calling iPhone a paradigm shift, when "phones with internet browsers" might be a clumsy but more accurate term.

Also, did you forget to distort something or take it out of context?  :)  Thanks for not doing that - it is rare.

Right back at you :-)

You take the opposite view on Bitcoin small block size, and I agree that does give Bitcoin stability.  You said "small block size drives decentralization", which I don't understand - maybe you could expand on that?

One of the arguments against large blocks was that they make full nodes more expensive to operate - so fewer full nodes would exist.

Five BTC mining pools account for 87.4% of the hashrate.  I speculate that the people in charge of each mining pool can make centralized decisions for Bitcoin, like which forks to accept.  Members of the mining pool need to be willing to switch if the pool makes a bad decision, and I suspect most people don't pay much attention and are not very involved.  So this may be where Bitcoin is centralized.  Last I checked, the Bitcoin core team & Lightning Network authors were the same small group of people.  Those are the areas where I argue Bitcoin has centralization.
https://btc.com/stats/pool

Possibly. I don't know enough about it to comment in detail. It's on my ToDo list.

Ethereum has concentration of it's own from "proof of stake", with 64% of ETH staked by five entities.
https://cointelegraph.com/news/64-of-staked-eth-controlled-by-five-entities-nansen

I don't know which factors are associated with Bitcoin adoption, which in turn suggests which factors could drive Bitcoin growth of market cap.  One in your favor is age - younger people like Bitcoin more than older people.  As people grow up, they may stay loyal to Bitcoin, while younger people adopt it.  I speculate that hyperinflation + currency collapse increase Bitcoin adoption, and these factors are not likely to be big enough to drive growth.  There are likely other factors that I do not know about, and which could expand the discussion.  I also don't know the weight of each factor, which matters.

seattlecyclone

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #1604 on: February 07, 2023, 10:02:22 PM »
Back to your point though, and I'm repeating myself, my expectation is that with time Bitcoin gets better (more established, less volatile and thus less risky) and most fiats get worse (more debased). If I'm right, the Bitcoin line on the 'useful as currency vs time' chart will progressively cross the lines of the fiats. Bolivar today, Peso next year, Dinar in 8 years, USD well maybe never but you get my point.

I think you're conflating two separate concepts: utility as a currency and utility as an investment. For what it's worth, I think it's reasonably likely that 1 BTC will be worth more USD in a decade than it is now. So what? That has no bearing on how useful BTC is as a currency relative to USD. A useful currency is one in which the value is relatively stable over time (so that people can set their prices and sign contracts in terms of that currency), and one in which transactions can be completed simply and quickly. BTC is way too volatile. Even if the Lightning network solves the transaction cost/speed problem, nobody's going to sign a contract denominated in a currency whose purchasing power regularly swings back and forth 3x over the course of a year.

Not really - I don't think the 2 things can be completely separated. A useful currency must have some utility as a store-of-value to be of any practical use - otherwise you have to run to the store with your wheelbarrow full of Reichsmarks while they can still pay for your groceries.

Sure. USD is a fine store of value in the short to medium term. I know my dollars will be worth basically the same amount in a month as they are worth today. I know my dollars will be worth slightly less in a year than they are worth today, and a bit less than that a year after that. This slow inflation does give me an incentive to not own very many dollars for the long run, and to instead invest most of my capital into productive assets. Seems like a good thing to me.

Compare to Bitcoin where I don't know it will be worth basically the same amount in a month as it's worth today, and predicting what it will be worth even a year out is a fool's errand.

Quote
My point was that I expect that volatility to decrease...

Why? What do you believe is driving Bitcoin's high volatility today, and what evidence do you have that these forces will subside in time?

waltworks

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #1605 on: February 08, 2023, 08:06:19 AM »
A decrease in volatility would require speculation to basically cease, right?

-W

GuitarStv

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #1606 on: February 08, 2023, 09:30:20 AM »
A decrease in volatility would require speculation to basically cease, right?

-W

Lack of speculation would force bitcoin to fall back on it's utility value - zero (or near zero).

simonsez

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #1607 on: February 08, 2023, 10:27:03 AM »
...
This whole conversation makes me think about why we gravitate to this particular subject rather than to far more concrete things.
...
We could instead be talking about junk bonds or pharmaceutical micro-cap stocks and cut out 99% of the uncertainty.
You don't understand why people talk about crypto in the thread dedicated to talking about crypto?

It sounds like you want to ignore crypto, but can't ignore this thread.  Maybe when this thread rises to the top, and people see it, that draws their attention.  A better solution might be a sticky crypto thread, so people can more easily ignore it if they choose.
I took it to mean in a general sociologically-curious context of what humans like to chat about (i.e. all of society with its possible modes of communications, not limited to one thread on the MMM forum) - NOT meaning "why are people continuing to talk about crypto in this specific crypto thread".

ChpBstrd

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #1608 on: February 08, 2023, 10:30:40 AM »
...
This whole conversation makes me think about why we gravitate to this particular subject rather than to far more concrete things.
...
We could instead be talking about junk bonds or pharmaceutical micro-cap stocks and cut out 99% of the uncertainty.
You don't understand why people talk about crypto in the thread dedicated to talking about crypto?

It sounds like you want to ignore crypto, but can't ignore this thread.  Maybe when this thread rises to the top, and people see it, that draws their attention.  A better solution might be a sticky crypto thread, so people can more easily ignore it if they choose.
I took it to mean in a general sociologically-curious context of what humans like to chat about (i.e. all of society with its possible modes of communications, not limited to one thread on the MMM forum) - NOT meaning "why are people continuing to talk about crypto in this specific crypto thread".
Correct @simonsez . I failed to more clearly define the "we".

YttriumNitrate

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #1609 on: February 08, 2023, 10:47:20 AM »
A decrease in volatility would require speculation to basically cease, right? -W
Much like traditional currencies, with enough leverage the speculation could continue. When 100x+ leverage is common in USD/EUR to Bitcoin trades, it'll be a good sign that Bitcoin has become a legitimate currency.

LateStarter

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #1610 on: February 08, 2023, 02:44:51 PM »
Back to your point though, and I'm repeating myself, my expectation is that with time Bitcoin gets better (more established, less volatile and thus less risky) and most fiats get worse (more debased). If I'm right, the Bitcoin line on the 'useful as currency vs time' chart will progressively cross the lines of the fiats. Bolivar today, Peso next year, Dinar in 8 years, USD well maybe never but you get my point.

I think you're conflating two separate concepts: utility as a currency and utility as an investment. For what it's worth, I think it's reasonably likely that 1 BTC will be worth more USD in a decade than it is now. So what? That has no bearing on how useful BTC is as a currency relative to USD. A useful currency is one in which the value is relatively stable over time (so that people can set their prices and sign contracts in terms of that currency), and one in which transactions can be completed simply and quickly. BTC is way too volatile. Even if the Lightning network solves the transaction cost/speed problem, nobody's going to sign a contract denominated in a currency whose purchasing power regularly swings back and forth 3x over the course of a year.

Not really - I don't think the 2 things can be completely separated. A useful currency must have some utility as a store-of-value to be of any practical use - otherwise you have to run to the store with your wheelbarrow full of Reichsmarks while they can still pay for your groceries.

Sure. USD is a fine store of value in the short to medium term. I know my dollars will be worth basically the same amount in a month as they are worth today. I know my dollars will be worth slightly less in a year than they are worth today, and a bit less than that a year after that. This slow inflation does give me an incentive to not own very many dollars for the long run, and to instead invest most of my capital into productive assets. Seems like a good thing to me.

Compare to Bitcoin where I don't know it will be worth basically the same amount in a month as it's worth today, and predicting what it will be worth even a year out is a fool's errand.

Once again:
Your point seems to be that Bitcoin is not a good currency today because it is volatile. I agree.

I'm less enthusiastic about the 'benefits' of inflation, but that's a bit too much of a sidetrack here.

My point was that I expect that volatility to decrease...

Why? What do you believe is driving Bitcoin's high volatility today, and what evidence do you have that these forces will subside in time?

It's still very speculative and attracts traders hopping in and out with leverage, etc. Also, there's been plenty of hot fresh money about in recent years.

Greater adoption. Broader, more diverse adoption. Lightning/currency adoption. Institutional investment. Technology developments breaking barriers and adding further encouragement to all adoption. etc.

I have no evidence to prove that these things will happen - it's just my expectation. However, if they do happen, a bigger/broader Bitcoin is very likely to be less volatile. I'm not holding my breath - it'll be a while.

seattlecyclone

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #1611 on: February 08, 2023, 03:21:34 PM »
Not really - I don't think the 2 things can be completely separated. A useful currency must have some utility as a store-of-value to be of any practical use - otherwise you have to run to the store with your wheelbarrow full of Reichsmarks while they can still pay for your groceries.

Sure. USD is a fine store of value in the short to medium term. I know my dollars will be worth basically the same amount in a month as they are worth today. I know my dollars will be worth slightly less in a year than they are worth today, and a bit less than that a year after that. This slow inflation does give me an incentive to not own very many dollars for the long run, and to instead invest most of my capital into productive assets. Seems like a good thing to me.

Compare to Bitcoin where I don't know it will be worth basically the same amount in a month as it's worth today, and predicting what it will be worth even a year out is a fool's errand.

Once again:
Your point seems to be that Bitcoin is not a good currency today because it is volatile. I agree.

I'm less enthusiastic about the 'benefits' of inflation, but that's a bit too much of a sidetrack here.

What I'm saying is that USD is currently a better store of value than Bitcoin. If I had put money into BTC a year ago, only half of that value would have been stored to the present moment. If I had kept it in cash over 90% of the value would have been stored. Will BTC be a better long-term store of value than USD? Maybe, maybe not. Way too soon to tell. It's not like gold that has thousands of years of history of being broadly valued across the human population.

As to the benefits of inflation, a deflationary monetary policy encourages people to hoard their currency and delay most economic activity as long as possible because stuff will be cheaper tomorrow than today. Hyperinflation is really bad. Everyone can agree on that. Deflation isn't much better. Slow inflation isn't amazing, but it's better than the alternatives. Bitcoin's choice to be purposefully deflationary was just that: a choice, and not a particularly good one IMO.

Quote
My point was that I expect that volatility to decrease...

Why? What do you believe is driving Bitcoin's high volatility today, and what evidence do you have that these forces will subside in time?

It's still very speculative and attracts traders hopping in and out with leverage, etc. Also, there's been plenty of hot fresh money about in recent years.

Greater adoption. Broader, more diverse adoption. Lightning/currency adoption. Institutional investment. Technology developments breaking barriers and adding further encouragement to all adoption. etc.

I have no evidence to prove that these things will happen - it's just my expectation. However, if they do happen, a bigger/broader Bitcoin is very likely to be less volatile. I'm not holding my breath - it'll be a while.

You seem to be asserting that Bitcoin will become less volatile, and in fact stable enough to be useful as a currency, as more people use and invest in it. It's not intuitively obvious to me that this would be the case. Bunches of people invest in the stock market and VTSAX is nowhere near stable enough to be a good backing for a currency. How has the volatility been trending over recent years as usage and investment has increased? Has it even been trending downward at all?

waltworks

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #1612 on: February 08, 2023, 04:25:38 PM »
Yeah, it's not clear to me either how more people investing in bitcoin would stabilize it in any way. The stock market has far more participants than BtC and it's not particularly stable.

BtC could have been designed to have a very slowly growing supply of coins, or a supply of coins designed to stay stable in relation to some basket of real world goods, which would have made it less attractive to hoard and more attractive to use for exchange. I am still baffled by the decision to design it with a fixed supply of coins.

-W

MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #1613 on: February 08, 2023, 07:19:25 PM »
...
This whole conversation makes me think about why we gravitate to this particular subject rather than to far more concrete things.
...
We could instead be talking about junk bonds or pharmaceutical micro-cap stocks and cut out 99% of the uncertainty.
You don't understand why people talk about crypto in the thread dedicated to talking about crypto?

It sounds like you want to ignore crypto, but can't ignore this thread.  Maybe when this thread rises to the top, and people see it, that draws their attention.  A better solution might be a sticky crypto thread, so people can more easily ignore it if they choose.
I took it to mean in a general sociologically-curious context of what humans like to chat about (i.e. all of society with its possible modes of communications, not limited to one thread on the MMM forum) - NOT meaning "why are people continuing to talk about crypto in this specific crypto thread".
Correct @simonsez . I failed to more clearly define the "we".
If you agree that is off topic for this thread, then my point remains that this should be posted somewhere else rather than in a thread focused on crypto.

And in a more general way, many people post in this thread who hate crypto, want to post their hate of crypto, and do not check that the same things have been brought up before.  Those posts, to me, are further evidence people post here just because the thread draws their attention, and not because they want to contribute.  Which is why I suggested it be sticky, and easier to ignore.
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/forum-information-faqs/make-crypto-thread-sticky-(investor-alley)/

Scandium

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #1614 on: February 09, 2023, 07:45:36 AM »
Yeah, it's not clear to me either how more people investing in bitcoin would stabilize it in any way. The stock market has far more participants than BtC and it's not particularly stable.

BtC could have been designed to have a very slowly growing supply of coins, or a supply of coins designed to stay stable in relation to some basket of real world goods, which would have made it less attractive to hoard and more attractive to use for exchange. I am still baffled by the decision to design it with a fixed supply of coins.

-W

My guess is because it was designed by/for gold-standard enthusiasts.

JAYSLOL

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #1615 on: February 09, 2023, 10:48:00 AM »
...
This whole conversation makes me think about why we gravitate to this particular subject rather than to far more concrete things.
...
We could instead be talking about junk bonds or pharmaceutical micro-cap stocks and cut out 99% of the uncertainty.
You don't understand why people talk about crypto in the thread dedicated to talking about crypto?

It sounds like you want to ignore crypto, but can't ignore this thread.  Maybe when this thread rises to the top, and people see it, that draws their attention.  A better solution might be a sticky crypto thread, so people can more easily ignore it if they choose.
I took it to mean in a general sociologically-curious context of what humans like to chat about (i.e. all of society with its possible modes of communications, not limited to one thread on the MMM forum) - NOT meaning "why are people continuing to talk about crypto in this specific crypto thread".
Correct @simonsez . I failed to more clearly define the "we".
If you agree that is off topic for this thread, then my point remains that this should be posted somewhere else rather than in a thread focused on crypto.

And in a more general way, many people post in this thread who hate crypto, want to post their hate of crypto, and do not check that the same things have been brought up before.  Those posts, to me, are further evidence people post here just because the thread draws their attention, and not because they want to contribute.  Which is why I suggested it be sticky, and easier to ignore.
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/forum-information-faqs/make-crypto-thread-sticky-(investor-alley)/

So… should crypto enthusiasts also not be able to post anything in support of crypto that has been posted already?  Or that rule only applies to those you disagree with?

LateStarter

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #1616 on: February 09, 2023, 12:54:34 PM »
Not really - I don't think the 2 things can be completely separated. A useful currency must have some utility as a store-of-value to be of any practical use - otherwise you have to run to the store with your wheelbarrow full of Reichsmarks while they can still pay for your groceries.

Sure. USD is a fine store of value in the short to medium term. I know my dollars will be worth basically the same amount in a month as they are worth today. I know my dollars will be worth slightly less in a year than they are worth today, and a bit less than that a year after that. This slow inflation does give me an incentive to not own very many dollars for the long run, and to instead invest most of my capital into productive assets. Seems like a good thing to me.

Compare to Bitcoin where I don't know it will be worth basically the same amount in a month as it's worth today, and predicting what it will be worth even a year out is a fool's errand.

Once again:
Your point seems to be that Bitcoin is not a good currency today because it is volatile. I agree.

I'm less enthusiastic about the 'benefits' of inflation, but that's a bit too much of a sidetrack here.

What I'm saying is that USD is currently a better store of value than Bitcoin. If I had put money into BTC a year ago, only half of that value would have been stored to the present moment. If I had kept it in cash over 90% of the value would have been stored. Will BTC be a better long-term store of value than USD? Maybe, maybe not. Way too soon to tell. It's not like gold that has thousands of years of history of being broadly valued across the human population.

Over the past year ? Yes. What about the past month ? Or the past 3 years or 4 years or 6 years or whatever. You've focused on a specific interval that suits your argument and disregarded all others. That proves nothing, other than confirmation bias.

Just about everyone in Bitcoin has said for a long while: if you're thinking in terms of <4 years, you're in for a rough ride.

As to the benefits of inflation, a deflationary monetary policy encourages people to hoard their currency and delay most economic activity as long as possible because stuff will be cheaper tomorrow than today. Hyperinflation is really bad. Everyone can agree on that. Deflation isn't much better. Slow inflation isn't amazing, but it's better than the alternatives. Bitcoin's choice to be purposefully deflationary was just that: a choice, and not a particularly good one IMO.

Bitcoin was designed to be disinflationary - not deflationary. In practise, lost coins will make it mildly deflationary.

It's not been discussed in depth and I haven't scoured the world's libraries looking for it, but I've yet to see good evidence of this bad deflation scenario. The examples usually quoted are, eg. 1930's, ie. deflationary contractions following periods of irrational exuberance, eg. roaring 20's. The deflation is part of the bitter medicine in these cases - It's not the cause of the pain, it's part of the cure.

Granted, a mildly deflationary world might make people/businesses more careful with money, but is that necessarily a bad thing ? In terms of business, investment and broad economic activity, it would only raise the bar. Good investments will still be good investments, mediocre investments might become poor investments, it should further discourage malinvestment.
At a personal level, a longer-term frugal-minded outlook, less excessive spending, less rampant consumerism, etc. all sounds pretty Mustachian and environmentally-friendly to me.

Also, would people actually delay purchases to any significant degree in practise ? Evidence ?
People commonly choose to pay car+loanInterest now rather than delay, save and pay car-savingsInterest later. There's an easy 15%pa(?) 'deflationary' win on offer, but people don't/can't wait.

My point was that I expect that volatility to decrease...
Why? What do you believe is driving Bitcoin's high volatility today, and what evidence do you have that these forces will subside in time?

It's still very speculative and attracts traders hopping in and out with leverage, etc. Also, there's been plenty of hot fresh money about in recent years.

Greater adoption. Broader, more diverse adoption. Lightning/currency adoption. Institutional investment. Technology developments breaking barriers and adding further encouragement to all adoption. etc.

I have no evidence to prove that these things will happen - it's just my expectation. However, if they do happen, a bigger/broader Bitcoin is very likely to be less volatile. I'm not holding my breath - it'll be a while.

You seem to be asserting that Bitcoin will become less volatile, and in fact stable enough to be useful as a currency, as more people use and invest in it. It's not intuitively obvious to me that this would be the case. Bunches of people invest in the stock market and VTSAX is nowhere near stable enough to be a good backing for a currency. How has the volatility been trending over recent years as usage and investment has increased? Has it even been trending downward at all?

Why is the SP500 less volatile than a penny stock ? It's the size, value, number of participants, different goals/timescales of those participants, etc. Most buys/sells are just swallowed up - relatively speaking.

Do you think there are no fiat currencies more volatile than VTSAX ?

Bitcoin volatility indicators, BVIN and BVOL both seem to show a broad/slow reduction in volatility. Make of that what you will. I'm not concluding much from it - the charts are a bit all over the place.

GuitarStv

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #1617 on: February 09, 2023, 01:16:55 PM »
Why is the SP500 less volatile than a penny stock ? It's the size, value, number of participants, different goals/timescales of those participants, etc.

The companies in the S&P are cut loose if they have less than a 13 billion dollar market cap, less than a quarter million trades in the past six months, and have negative earnings over four quarters.

That alone helps an awful lot with volatility.  You get a broad collection of different companies where much of the chaff is cut away and newer strong companies are regularly added.

Seems like that would tend to significantly reduce swings when compared with an 'all our eggs in one basket' approach of betting on any individual cryptocurrency.

LateStarter

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #1618 on: February 09, 2023, 02:10:45 PM »
Why is the SP500 less volatile than a penny stock ? It's the size, value, number of participants, different goals/timescales of those participants, etc.

The companies in the S&P are cut loose if they have less than a 13 billion dollar market cap, less than a quarter million trades in the past six months, and have negative earnings over four quarters.

That alone helps an awful lot with volatility.  You get a broad collection of different companies where much of the chaff is cut away and newer strong companies are regularly added.

Seems like that would tend to significantly reduce swings when compared with an 'all our eggs in one basket' approach of betting on any individual cryptocurrency.

Fair point, comparing an index to an individual company was careless.

The point I intended to convey was: small cap stocks tend to be more volatile than large cap stocks  - for the same reasons in given my original post.

seattlecyclone

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #1619 on: February 09, 2023, 07:27:57 PM »
What I'm saying is that USD is currently a better store of value than Bitcoin. If I had put money into BTC a year ago, only half of that value would have been stored to the present moment. If I had kept it in cash over 90% of the value would have been stored. Will BTC be a better long-term store of value than USD? Maybe, maybe not. Way too soon to tell. It's not like gold that has thousands of years of history of being broadly valued across the human population.

Over the past year ? Yes. What about the past month ? Or the past 3 years or 4 years or 6 years or whatever. You've focused on a specific interval that suits your argument and disregarded all others. That proves nothing, other than confirmation bias.

Just about everyone in Bitcoin has said for a long while: if you're thinking in terms of <4 years, you're in for a rough ride.

When I think of the term "store of value" I understand that concept to be all about mitigating downsides; upsides are pretty irrelevant. Stock in an early stage tech startup may be a good investment because it has a chance of multiplying many times in value, but it's a terrible store of value because it's more likely than not to go to zero within a decade.

Time period factors into it as well. A dollar is a great store of value when you're looking at time periods of months or even a few years. You might lose a few percent every year, but if your time horizon is a small number of years the assurance you'll get most of your value back out can be worth it. By comparison, Bitcoin is a terrible store of value in the months-to-years range. It swings all over the place. "Rough ride" and "good store of value" are rarely synonymous.

Expand the time period out to decades and USD is a bad store of value indeed. Pretty much any diversified investment will work better for this purpose. Will Bitcoin be a better store of value than USD if your time horizon is 10-50 years? There's much too little historical data to have any confidence in that.

Quote
You seem to be asserting that Bitcoin will become less volatile, and in fact stable enough to be useful as a currency, as more people use and invest in it. It's not intuitively obvious to me that this would be the case. Bunches of people invest in the stock market and VTSAX is nowhere near stable enough to be a good backing for a currency. How has the volatility been trending over recent years as usage and investment has increased? Has it even been trending downward at all?

Why is the SP500 less volatile than a penny stock ? It's the size, value, number of participants, different goals/timescales of those participants, etc. Most buys/sells are just swallowed up - relatively speaking.

Diversification and high market cap and high trading volume and active removal of destabilizing companies all factor into the S&P 500's relatively lower volatility. But even with a market cap 100x what Bitcoin has, the S&P 500 is way too volatile to use as a currency.

MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #1620 on: February 10, 2023, 05:53:24 AM »
...
This whole conversation makes me think about why we gravitate to this particular subject rather than to far more concrete things.
...
We could instead be talking about junk bonds or pharmaceutical micro-cap stocks and cut out 99% of the uncertainty.
You don't understand why people talk about crypto in the thread dedicated to talking about crypto?

It sounds like you want to ignore crypto, but can't ignore this thread.  Maybe when this thread rises to the top, and people see it, that draws their attention.  A better solution might be a sticky crypto thread, so people can more easily ignore it if they choose.
I took it to mean in a general sociologically-curious context of what humans like to chat about (i.e. all of society with its possible modes of communications, not limited to one thread on the MMM forum) - NOT meaning "why are people continuing to talk about crypto in this specific crypto thread".
Correct @simonsez . I failed to more clearly define the "we".
If you agree that is off topic for this thread, then my point remains that this should be posted somewhere else rather than in a thread focused on crypto.

And in a more general way, many people post in this thread who hate crypto, want to post their hate of crypto, and do not check that the same things have been brought up before.  Those posts, to me, are further evidence people post here just because the thread draws their attention, and not because they want to contribute.  Which is why I suggested it be sticky, and easier to ignore.
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/forum-information-faqs/make-crypto-thread-sticky-(investor-alley)/
So… should crypto enthusiasts also not be able to post anything in support of crypto that has been posted already?  Or that rule only applies to those you disagree with?
You said "not be able to post", I didn't.  I did not bring up a "rule", so "that rule" refers to something you just invented to argue against.  Quote where I said it.

LateStarter

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #1621 on: February 12, 2023, 12:55:18 PM »
What I'm saying is that USD is currently a better store of value than Bitcoin. If I had put money into BTC a year ago, only half of that value would have been stored to the present moment. If I had kept it in cash over 90% of the value would have been stored. Will BTC be a better long-term store of value than USD? Maybe, maybe not. Way too soon to tell. It's not like gold that has thousands of years of history of being broadly valued across the human population.

Over the past year ? Yes. What about the past month ? Or the past 3 years or 4 years or 6 years or whatever. You've focused on a specific interval that suits your argument and disregarded all others. That proves nothing, other than confirmation bias.

Just about everyone in Bitcoin has said for a long while: if you're thinking in terms of <4 years, you're in for a rough ride.

When I think of the term "store of value" I understand that concept to be all about mitigating downsides; upsides are pretty irrelevant. Stock in an early stage tech startup may be a good investment because it has a chance of multiplying many times in value, but it's a terrible store of value because it's more likely than not to go to zero within a decade.

Time period factors into it as well. A dollar is a great store of value when you're looking at time periods of months or even a few years. You might lose a few percent every year, but if your time horizon is a small number of years the assurance you'll get most of your value back out can be worth it. By comparison, Bitcoin is a terrible store of value in the months-to-years range. It swings all over the place. "Rough ride" and "good store of value" are rarely synonymous.

Expand the time period out to decades and USD is a bad store of value indeed. Pretty much any diversified investment will work better for this purpose. Will Bitcoin be a better store of value than USD if your time horizon is 10-50 years? There's much too little historical data to have any confidence in that.

This discussion has wandered off track - so bringing it back:

My original point you responded to:
  • Back to your point though, and I'm repeating myself, my expectation is that with time Bitcoin gets better (more established, less volatile and thus less risky) and most fiats get worse (more debased). If I'm right, the Bitcoin line on the 'useful as currency vs time' chart will progressively cross the lines of the fiats. Bolivar today, Peso next year, Dinar in 8 years, USD well maybe never but you get my point.

    I think you're conflating two separate concepts: utility as a currency and utility as an investment. For what it's worth, I think it's reasonably likely that 1 BTC will be worth more USD in a decade than it is now. So what? That has no bearing on how useful BTC is as a currency relative to USD. A useful currency is one in which the value is relatively stable over time (so that people can set their prices and sign contracts in terms of that currency), and one in which transactions can be completed simply and quickly. BTC is way too volatile. Even if the Lightning network solves the transaction cost/speed problem, nobody's going to sign a contract denominated in a currency whose purchasing power regularly swings back and forth 3x over the course of a year.

My point was that Bitcoin, today, is probably a better currency than the norm in some of the toughest countries - with poor fiats and poor banking, etc.
I'm not comparing Bitcoin today to USD today. I explicitly said, for use as a currency, that Bitcoin will replace the "USD well maybe never".

So has this and the point below addressed your disagreements with my post above ?

I'm happy to discuss the broader, general aspects of Bitcoin as store of value vs USD, etc. but it would nice to wrap up one thing before moving on to the next.

You seem to be asserting that Bitcoin will become less volatile, and in fact stable enough to be useful as a currency, as more people use and invest in it. It's not intuitively obvious to me that this would be the case. Bunches of people invest in the stock market and VTSAX is nowhere near stable enough to be a good backing for a currency. How has the volatility been trending over recent years as usage and investment has increased? Has it even been trending downward at all?

Why is the SP500 less volatile than a penny stock ? It's the size, value, number of participants, different goals/timescales of those participants, etc. Most buys/sells are just swallowed up - relatively speaking.

Diversification and high market cap and high trading volume and active removal of destabilizing companies all factor into the S&P 500's relatively lower volatility. But even with a market cap 100x what Bitcoin has, the S&P 500 is way too volatile to use as a currency.

copy of my response to GuitarStv:

Fair point, comparing an index to an individual company was careless.

The point I intended to convey was: small cap stocks tend to be more volatile than large cap stocks  - for the same reasons in given my original post.

seattlecyclone

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #1622 on: February 12, 2023, 03:55:26 PM »
Sure, there probably exist a handful of minor national currencies that are more volatile than Bitcoin. That's a pretty low bar. People living in such countries often use other means of exchange, like when Zimbabwe's currency hyperinflated they started using foreign currencies (including US dollars and the rand from neighboring South Africa) instead. So yeah in such a situation people would definitely be open to using a currency other than the one their own government sponsors, but when that happens they tend to pick major currencies, not one that is only marginally more stable than the one they recently abandoned.

okonumiyaki

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #1623 on: February 18, 2023, 01:42:37 AM »
Re "The government can't take your bitcoin" and "hold in cold storage"

Doesn't help.   Most governments will know what a bitcoin wallet looks like.  (and, at a guess, in Tate's case it looks a lot like money laundering.  I am thinking that unless he can show the BTC are squeaky clean, and all taxes paid on the income they represent, they won't be his BTC for much longer)

https://coinmarketcap.com/alexandria/article/police-seized-nearly-dollar500000-in-btc-from-andrew-and-tristan-tate

Juan Ponce de León

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #1624 on: February 18, 2023, 02:47:12 AM »
Re "The government can't take your bitcoin" and "hold in cold storage"

Doesn't help.   Most governments will know what a bitcoin wallet looks like.  (and, at a guess, in Tate's case it looks a lot like money laundering.  I am thinking that unless he can show the BTC are squeaky clean, and all taxes paid on the income they represent, they won't be his BTC for much longer)

https://coinmarketcap.com/alexandria/article/police-seized-nearly-dollar500000-in-btc-from-andrew-and-tristan-tate

Tell us, what does a bitcoin wallet look like?

bacchi

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #1625 on: February 18, 2023, 07:06:12 PM »
Re "The government can't take your bitcoin" and "hold in cold storage"

Doesn't help.   Most governments will know what a bitcoin wallet looks like.  (and, at a guess, in Tate's case it looks a lot like money laundering.  I am thinking that unless he can show the BTC are squeaky clean, and all taxes paid on the income they represent, they won't be his BTC for much longer)

https://coinmarketcap.com/alexandria/article/police-seized-nearly-dollar500000-in-btc-from-andrew-and-tristan-tate

Tell us, what does a bitcoin wallet look like?

What government does okonumiyaki represent?

okonumiyaki

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #1626 on: February 18, 2023, 08:29:34 PM »


Tell us, what does a bitcoin wallet look like?

Well, obvious enough that the Romanian police were able to confiscate it.  (though, it could have been that they were subpoenaed to disclose all assets, and so gave them up) 

Juan Ponce de León

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #1627 on: February 18, 2023, 09:06:22 PM »


Tell us, what does a bitcoin wallet look like?

Well, obvious enough that the Romanian police were able to confiscate it.  (though, it could have been that they were subpoenaed to disclose all assets, and so gave them up)

From the article you posted it reads like they have been able to seize a small proportion of his total crypto holdings, that would only be because he left the private keys to those wallets lying around for them to find.

MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #1628 on: February 18, 2023, 10:26:23 PM »
Quote
Mateea Petrescu, a spokesperson for Andrew Tate and his brother Tristan (who was also arrested ), told Decrypt that Romanian police also confiscated hardware wallets containing digital assets.

Petrescu said Andrew Tate’s wallet contained five Bitcoin—today worth around $111,339. Tristan’s wallet held around 16 Bitcoin.

In total, that’s $467,625 worth of the asset.
https://decrypt.co/121308/andrew-tate-bitcoin-seized

"Hardware wallets" are physical devices, so "confiscated" could simply mean Romanian police took possession of the physical devices.  Those typically have (potentially flawed) security preventing access to the private key.  I haven't seen any articles mention a transfer of BTC out of the Tate's hardware wallets.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2023, 10:28:02 PM by MustacheAndaHalf »

Juan Ponce de León

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #1629 on: February 19, 2023, 12:07:37 AM »
Quote
Mateea Petrescu, a spokesperson for Andrew Tate and his brother Tristan (who was also arrested ), told Decrypt that Romanian police also confiscated hardware wallets containing digital assets.

Petrescu said Andrew Tate’s wallet contained five Bitcoin—today worth around $111,339. Tristan’s wallet held around 16 Bitcoin.

In total, that’s $467,625 worth of the asset.
https://decrypt.co/121308/andrew-tate-bitcoin-seized

"Hardware wallets" are physical devices, so "confiscated" could simply mean Romanian police took possession of the physical devices.  Those typically have (potentially flawed) security preventing access to the private key.  I haven't seen any articles mention a transfer of BTC out of the Tate's hardware wallets.

If all they have is the physical devices and don't have access to the private key, they haven't 'seized' anything as far as his crypto is concerned.  For all they know Tate could have already done a factory reset on those devices and has his seed phrase locked up in a swiss bank safe deposit box or some hiding place somewhere on earth that only he knows about.  The authorities probably know about some of his wallets, but likely he also has wallets that noone even knows are his.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2023, 12:11:35 AM by Juan Ponce de León »

GuitarStv

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #1630 on: February 19, 2023, 09:13:03 AM »
Does the confiscation of wealth really matter?

Tate is either not going to need the money in prison for human trafficking/rape or he's going to be exonerated and will get all his money back.

bacchi

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #1631 on: February 19, 2023, 09:20:57 AM »
Does the confiscation of wealth really matter?

Tate is either not going to need the money in prison for human trafficking/rape or he's going to be exonerated and will get all his money back.

If he ends up in the clinker, one of his acolytes can use his hidden BTC to fill up his commissary account.

MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #1632 on: February 19, 2023, 05:29:29 PM »
Does the confiscation of wealth really matter?

Tate is either not going to need the money in prison for human trafficking/rape or he's going to be exonerated and will get all his money back.
If he ends up in the clinker, one of his acolytes can use his hidden BTC to fill up his commissary account.
For the new "inmate" category in the "Investment Order" thread: yes, add "a low % crypto allocation".

okonumiyaki

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #1633 on: February 19, 2023, 07:52:33 PM »
Quote
Mateea Petrescu, a spokesperson for Andrew Tate and his brother Tristan (who was also arrested ), told Decrypt that Romanian police also confiscated hardware wallets containing digital assets.

Petrescu said Andrew Tate’s wallet contained five Bitcoin—today worth around $111,339. Tristan’s wallet held around 16 Bitcoin.

In total, that’s $467,625 worth of the asset.
https://decrypt.co/121308/andrew-tate-bitcoin-seized

"Hardware wallets" are physical devices, so "confiscated" could simply mean Romanian police took possession of the physical devices.  Those typically have (potentially flawed) security preventing access to the private key.  I haven't seen any articles mention a transfer of BTC out of the Tate's hardware wallets.

If all they have is the physical devices and don't have access to the private key, they haven't 'seized' anything as far as his crypto is concerned.  For all they know Tate could have already done a factory reset on those devices and has his seed phrase locked up in a swiss bank safe deposit box or some hiding place somewhere on earth that only he knows about.  The authorities probably know about some of his wallets, but likely he also has wallets that noone even knows are his.

I presume the court has sent him a notice to declare all assets.  Sure, he can lie, but as blockchain is traceable, that's risky.  Especially as they seem to be pretty serious about nailing him, so I wouldn't rule out an Al Capone style - 'we will send you to jail for tax evasion/ money laundering/ failing to disclose assets' if they can't get the trafficing cases to stick

Telecaster

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #1634 on: February 23, 2023, 04:30:36 PM »
I presume the court has sent him a notice to declare all assets.  Sure, he can lie, but as blockchain is traceable, that's risky.  Especially as they seem to be pretty serious about nailing him, so I wouldn't rule out an Al Capone style - 'we will send you to jail for tax evasion/ money laundering/ failing to disclose assets' if they can't get the trafficing cases to stick

A while back I heard an interview with Katie Haun, who was a federal prosecutor who later became a blockchain venture capitalist.  As a prosecutor, she prosecuted the Mt.Gox and Silk Road cases, and hence became an expert on crypto-crimes.   As it turns out, there were two undercover FBI agents working the Mt. Gox case who became corrupt (unknown to each other).   She was emphatic that they were busted and prosecuted because they were using Bitcoin.  Mind you, these were FBI agents who knew how crimes are investigated and even had access to information regarding the ongoing Mt. Gox investigation and they still couldn't cover their tracks.  I don't think a stooge like Andrew Tate has much of a chance. 


Metalcat

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #1635 on: February 24, 2023, 06:47:20 AM »
Does the confiscation of wealth really matter?

Tate is either not going to need the money in prison for human trafficking/rape or he's going to be exonerated and will get all his money back.
If he ends up in the clinker, one of his acolytes can use his hidden BTC to fill up his commissary account.
For the new "inmate" category in the "Investment Order" thread: yes, add "a low % crypto allocation".

Fuck that was funny.

GuitarStv

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #1636 on: June 06, 2023, 07:37:52 AM »
Binance, Coinbase, Kraken, Binance.US and KuCoin... there's a hole where FTX used to be, but the other crypto exchanges can take up the slack.

Binance / Binance.US - 13 charges for willfully misleading investors and operating illegally
Coinbase - Charges for misleading investors and operating illegally
Kraken - Shut down to settle after charges were brought for operating illegally
KuCoin - Currently embroiled in NY state lawsuits for operating illegally

. . . looks like the other crypto exchanges really did take up all the slack that FTX left!

Scandium

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #1637 on: June 06, 2023, 08:13:03 AM »
Does the confiscation of wealth really matter?

Tate is either not going to need the money in prison for human trafficking/rape or he's going to be exonerated and will get all his money back.
If he ends up in the clinker, one of his acolytes can use his hidden BTC to fill up his commissary account.
For the new "inmate" category in the "Investment Order" thread: yes, add "a low % crypto allocation".

Fuck that was funny.

I say we need another subforum for "Illegal/immoral ways to FIRE"! A safe space where folks can discuss bitcoin and NFT scams, how to pump your penny stock, which states have the best prisons, how to accessorize your jumpsuit..

Glenstache

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #1638 on: June 06, 2023, 09:01:30 AM »
Does the confiscation of wealth really matter?

Tate is either not going to need the money in prison for human trafficking/rape or he's going to be exonerated and will get all his money back.
If he ends up in the clinker, one of his acolytes can use his hidden BTC to fill up his commissary account.
For the new "inmate" category in the "Investment Order" thread: yes, add "a low % crypto allocation".

Fuck that was funny.

I say we need another subforum for "Illegal/immoral ways to FIRE"! A safe space where folks can discuss bitcoin and NFT scams, how to pump your penny stock, which states have the best prisons, how to accessorize your jumpsuit..
I thought that was the Overheard on Facebook thread?

Also, WTF was up with the outsized discussion of bitcoin, etc during the DeSantis announcement? Was it just a suck up to Elon & Friends as potential donors? Maybe he's just trying to emulated Trump some more and find an MLM angle for his campaign? https://www.coindesk.com/policy/2023/05/25/desantis-bitcoin-represents-a-threat-to-the-current-regime/
« Last Edit: June 06, 2023, 09:05:14 AM by Glenstache »

Paper Chaser

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #1639 on: June 06, 2023, 09:06:22 AM »
Binance, Coinbase, Kraken, Binance.US and KuCoin... there's a hole where FTX used to be, but the other crypto exchanges can take up the slack.

Binance / Binance.US - 13 charges for willfully misleading investors and operating illegally
Coinbase - Charges for misleading investors and operating illegally
Kraken - Shut down to settle after charges were brought for operating illegally
KuCoin - Currently embroiled in NY state lawsuits for operating illegally

. . . looks like the other crypto exchanges really did take up all the slack that FTX left!

Slack from FTX? Nah, they've all been shady from the jump. Binance guys were knowingly doing illegal stuff back in 2018:
« Last Edit: June 06, 2023, 09:09:54 AM by Paper Chaser »

LateStarter

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #1640 on: June 07, 2023, 06:48:19 AM »
If it's true that Binance and Coinbase have been acting illegally and misleading investors, etc., and I'm guessing a lot of it probably IS true, then great - as with SBF, fuck those guys - good riddance to bad rubbish. It would be wonderful to see the scammy exchanges and scammy cryptos exposed for what they are, and driven out. This is exactly what many Bitcoiners have been saying for a long time.

There might be some short-term guilt_by_association damage but this is good for Bitcoin.

MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #1641 on: June 07, 2023, 07:03:36 AM »
BTC-USD price dropped the day that story broke, then recovered within a day.
https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/BTC-USD/

Stimpy

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #1642 on: June 07, 2023, 07:51:00 AM »
So.... you do realize that the exchanges have made Crypto what it is right.   Fairly easy access, fairly easy to then go further in.  Heck when I first heard of bitcoin it was, go ask a friend to sell it to you.  Ok, maybe not quite that but getting it required hoop jumping.  Coinbase and equivalent eliminated that!

IF the SEC sues them out of existence do you think the general public will stick around?  I don't. The Crypto bro's might keep going, but we will be back to the days of hoop jumping and I for one, even though I could probably do that, don't want to.  I expect MOST won't.  And yes there are foreign exchanges in Japan and other places but if the SEC kills them in America, I expect other nations will do similar.  Even if some survive in other countries, your average person in the US or other affected nations, aren't going to use them. 

So enjoy it while it lasts, BTC and other coins will either go down to near zero level or stop existing if easy access goes away. Though probably not right away.  No other way to state it.  We shall just have to wait and see what happens and whether these crypto exchanges survive.
(Full disclosure, yes I own some crypto.)

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #1643 on: June 07, 2023, 08:15:57 AM »
So pretty much every exchange is/was fraudulent? Is that where we're at with this?

I guess I'm not really surprised. But it's infuriating that the original promise of crypto (get rid of the vampire squid credit card companies!) has failed so abjectly.

-W

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #1644 on: June 07, 2023, 08:37:09 AM »
So.... you do realize that the exchanges have made Crypto what it is right.

I do realise that. And I think that the wider world of crypto is mostly an absolute shitshow, and a major corruption of / distraction from the Bitcoin project / mission.

Fairly easy access, fairly easy to then go further in. Heck when I first heard of bitcoin it was, go ask a friend to sell it to you.  Ok, maybe not quite that but getting it required hoop jumping.  Coinbase and equivalent eliminated that!

IF the SEC sues them out of existence do you think the general public will stick around?  I don't. The Crypto bro's might keep going, but we will be back to the days of hoop jumping and I for one, even though I could probably do that, don't want to.  I expect MOST won't.  And yes there are foreign exchanges in Japan and other places but if the SEC kills them in America, I expect other nations will do similar.  Even if some survive in other countries, your average person in the US or other affected nations, aren't going to use them. 

So enjoy it while it lasts, BTC and other coins will either go down to near zero level or stop existing if easy access goes away. Though probably not right away.  No other way to state it.  We shall just have to wait and see what happens and whether these crypto exchanges survive.
(Full disclosure, yes I own some crypto.)

If Coinbase/Binance are found to be scammy and get punished and/or shut down, that must be a good thing - on the (bold?) assumption that the SEC plays a straight game.

There are other easy ways into Bitcoin - Coinbase and Binance are not the only options.

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #1645 on: June 07, 2023, 08:45:56 AM »
So pretty much every exchange is/was fraudulent? Is that where we're at with this?

I guess I'm not really surprised. But it's infuriating that the original promise of crypto (get rid of the vampire squid credit card companies!) has failed so abjectly.

-W

Failed ? It's far from over.

Unscrupulous people will take unscrupulous advantage of any opportunities they spot, and there's been some terrific opportunities in this space for rogues. That's just the way it is.

Scammy coins and scammy exchanges do not detract from the core Bitcoin project. Unfortunately, they do distract and confuse and obfuscate, etc. but things tend to become more clear with time. I can wait.

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #1646 on: June 07, 2023, 09:12:03 AM »
The core project, for all it's original flaws, was interesting. It is dead. When the space is 99% occupied by scammers and speculators, it's over.

I will never be able to easily/cheaply pay/accept payment for anything with bitcoin and avoid credit card fees. Full stop.

-W

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #1647 on: June 07, 2023, 09:44:51 AM »
So.... you do realize that the exchanges have made Crypto what it is right.   Fairly easy access, fairly easy to then go further in.  Heck when I first heard of bitcoin it was, go ask a friend to sell it to you.  Ok, maybe not quite that but getting it required hoop jumping.  Coinbase and equivalent eliminated that!

IF the SEC sues them out of existence do you think the general public will stick around?  I don't. The Crypto bro's might keep going, but we will be back to the days of hoop jumping and I for one, even though I could probably do that, don't want to.  I expect MOST won't.  And yes there are foreign exchanges in Japan and other places but if the SEC kills them in America, I expect other nations will do similar.  Even if some survive in other countries, your average person in the US or other affected nations, aren't going to use them. 

So enjoy it while it lasts, BTC and other coins will either go down to near zero level or stop existing if easy access goes away. Though probably not right away.  No other way to state it.  We shall just have to wait and see what happens and whether these crypto exchanges survive.
(Full disclosure, yes I own some crypto.)
the original promise of crypto (get rid of the vampire squid credit card companies!) has failed so abjectly.
I'm not surprised that the only business models which have proven profitable around crypto are scams. The product itself is less useful and less economically efficient than the dollar-based economy it is supposed to replace, and that's after, what? 13 years of development, attention, and extreme levels of investment? It has already failed as a usable product. No technical breakthrough is likely to happen in year 14 or 15 that will change things, so what's the point in holding out hope. Cold fusion and warp drives have better odds of a breakthrough at this point. Crypto is old tech that never really worked in the first place.

How do you sell people a bad deal, if not by scamming them? The salesmen on car lots know this. The people running rent-to-own businesses know this. The people running check cashing and payday lending businesses know this. The people pump and dumping penny stocks on YouTube know this. Drug dealers know this too. Basically, if your product is a rip-off or bad for your client, certain tactics are usually required to profit from transactions involving the product.

If the product works well for its customers, scammy business practices are generally not necessary. That's why the experience of buying apples and toilet paper at the grocery store is so different than the experience of buying a timeshare, a stake in a MLM scheme, or... as it turns out... a cryptocoin.

Disclosure: Once received $25 worth of Ethereum through a PayPal promotion, and immediately sold it.

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #1648 on: June 07, 2023, 01:18:02 PM »
Back in the day, if you needed to buy some illegal drugs on the Silk Road you could simply mine some Bitcoin in your basement.  But now the reality is that it is hard to use Bitcoin without an exchange, bordering on impossible. 

At this point, it is hard to name an exchange that hasn't been in legal trouble.    It takes a bit more tech savy/fuss to self-custody that most people want to put up with and the exchanges seem to all be criminal enterprises.  My unscientific observation is that the Normies who were formerly agnostic on Bitcoin now won't touch it with a ten foot pole.

It all comes down to lack of use cases.   The vast majority of people have no real need for Bitcoin.  It is more difficult to buy/sell stuff with Bitcoin than traditional money.   It is definitely harder to store Bitcoin.  For the normies there aren't many advantages.    So the market seems to be limited to people who think Bitcoin will take over the world some day--and that number, I believe, is not growing for the reasons I mentioned. 

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #1649 on: June 07, 2023, 01:58:48 PM »
I'm not surprised that the only business models which have proven profitable around crypto are scams.

The VC model seems to work.   A13Z has raised billions for useless crypto projects, which skimming off hundreds of millions in fees. 

On second though, that sounds like a scam too. 

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!