Will insurance help with or cover any of this (rot/termite/water damage)?

[jeromedawg]

Hi all,

So we finally got our kids out of the room they were in where we were having some issues with water leaking/intrusion. In an attempt to try to find the source of the leak myself, I pulled the carpet and baseboard back a bit and opened up the corner to find this:








Really bad wood rot along the bottom plate, termites (I think this was a prior infestation (hopefully) before we fumigated end of 2021 before moving in, and water damage. The paper feels wet but I'm not 100% sure on where the water is coming in. Right now there are a couple suspects: the flashing outside where this is an adjoining section of roof and/or this 'pseudo' balcony.

NOTE: the gutter pictured was replaced - the old gutter was running and graded back towards the house and they caulked it right up against the wall so the stucco was wet when we removed it before putting on new gutters (this was between rains after first moving in).

The worst part of the wood rot seems to be in the corner as far as I can see, and it seems the moisture is concentrated there. But I felt the paper maybe 2' back and 1' up from that corner and it feels wet, so not sure if the water is coming in from the outside and gravity is pulling it towards that corner or if water is coming back in from the balcony box (or both).

At this point, I've opened the can of worms (it had to happen at some point, whether I did it myself or I hired someone else to do it). So now I'm wondering what direction to take. I don't even know if this is something insurance would cover... is it worth calling them and trying to open a claim? If not, what would you guys advice? Water damage/remediation/leak detection company? General Contractor? My wife works for a remodeling company and I'm sure they'd be happy to help. I also have another contractor who worked on a similar type of issue for a neighbor two doors down.

Should I open up more of that wall and try to clean up what I can (old wet drywall, insulation, etc) and try to see if I can definitively identify where the leak is?

[sonofsven]

Where is that on relation to the window?
Can you step back and take a picture that shows more of the interior?

[jeromedawg]

I also got a close up of a torn portion of the sheathing... looks like there's plaster right up behind it - I don't see a metal lath but wonder if this might be a point of water intrusion (probably not the only one either even if it were):

[sonofsven]

I'd suspect the problem is that roof and gutter that dies into the sidewall.
With the bottom plate being that far gone I suspect the room below will have moisture issues too, in the rim joist and top plate at least, possibly into the studs as well.
If you have a moisture meter do the room below near the ceiling in that corner.
And check the walls all the way up to the ceiling in the purple room. You should get less moisture readings near the ceiling if the leak is coming from the roof I mentioned above.
Am I seeing black tar paper, or is that part of the insulation? Normally the building paper is outside the sheathing. When you pull the insulation out you should be sering the sheathing in the stud bays.
Once you get the leak solved it's not that hard to repair the framing. Cut away all the rotten parts of the studs and replace the bottom plate. Cut each stud off where you have good wood. Be careful not to shake the stucco loose, but you'll probably have to do some repairs on it anyway.
Cut short studs under each cut off stud and sister each one 12-18" above the cut off point, like a splint.

[jeromedawg]

I'd suspect the problem is that roof and gutter that dies into the sidewall.
With the bottom plate being that far gone I suspect the room below will have moisture issues too, in the rim joist and top plate at least, possibly into the studs as well.
If you have a moisture meter do the room below near the ceiling in that corner.
And check the walls all the way up to the ceiling in the purple room. You should get less moisture readings near the ceiling if the leak is coming from the roof I mentioned above.
Am I seeing black tar paper, or is that part of the insulation? Normally the building paper is outside the sheathing. When you pull the insulation out you should be sering the sheathing in the stud bays.
Once you get the leak solved it's not that hard to repair the framing. Cut away all the rotten parts of the studs and replace the bottom plate. Cut each stud off where you have good wood. Be careful not to shake the stucco loose, but you'll probably have to do some repairs on it anyway.
Cut short studs under each cut off stud and sister each one 12-18" above the cut off point, like a splint.

Thanks. I ended up having my son go outside and spray the area in question while I watched the wall. I started seeing dripping but it was coming from higher so I cut higher and found the flashing. Theres a small hole and we mapped it back the outside where theres a small gap and crack (also used a light shine through the inside to see if we could spot it on the outside). More paper in this area was degraded and you could see water spilling in from the flashing outside, presumably from that crack.

Pic of the flashing and cracked area, inside and out:

[sonofsven]

Yeah, that would do it.
You might need to pull the gutter and roofing and remove enough of the stucco to reflash that whole roof/wall intersection, but do the interior framing first.
It's likely you'll cause more stucco damage when you're doing the framing repairs. Just cut out any rot and leave solid wood alone, sistering where needed. Be aware that the sheathing and metal lath are nailed into the studs so try not to do any more damage there. I use an angle grinder with the thinnest cutting wheel to cut nails flush instead of pulling them.
In a remodel you need to consider it the same as new construction in that you want to accomplish the work in the proper order:
 framing > sheathing > flashing >roofing >siding > insulation > drywall, you just need to tear things back enough to get to that starting point, then do each step in order.
It's really not that hard if you do the work in the proper order.

[jeromedawg]

I'd suspect the problem is that roof and gutter that dies into the sidewall.
With the bottom plate being that far gone I suspect the room below will have moisture issues too, in the rim joist and top plate at least, possibly into the studs as well.
If you have a moisture meter do the room below near the ceiling in that corner.
And check the walls all the way up to the ceiling in the purple room. You should get less moisture readings near the ceiling if the leak is coming from the roof I mentioned above.
Am I seeing black tar paper, or is that part of the insulation? Normally the building paper is outside the sheathing. When you pull the insulation out you should be sering the sheathing in the stud bays.
Once you get the leak solved it's not that hard to repair the framing. Cut away all the rotten parts of the studs and replace the bottom plate. Cut each stud off where you have good wood. Be careful not to shake the stucco loose, but you'll probably have to do some repairs on it anyway.
Cut short studs under each cut off stud and sister each one 12-18" above the cut off point, like a splint.

The downstairs area below is the garage. I haven't checked lately and probably should but the moisture levels weren't super crazy before. There are water stains up on the ceiling though. I'll check again in a bit. And yea, I may need to open up the drywall to see the condition of the studs. Is there a good chance that that subflooring is shot as well? What happens in that case where the edge of the subflooring is messed up and may need replacement?

[jeromedawg]

Yeah, that would do it.
You might need to pull the gutter and roofing and remove enough of the stucco to reflash that whole roof/wall intersection, but do the interior framing first.
It's likely you'll cause more stucco damage when you're doing the framing repairs. Just cut out any rot and leave solid wood alone, sistering where needed. Be aware that the sheathing and metal lath are nailed into the studs so try not to do any more damage there. I use an angle grinder with the thinnest cutting wheel to cut nails flush instead of pulling them.
In a remodel you need to consider it the same as new construction in that you want to accomplish the work in the proper order:
 framing > sheathing > flashing >roofing >siding > insulation > drywall, you just need to tear things back enough to get to that starting point, then do each step in order.
It's really not that hard if you do the work in the proper order.

In terms of DIYing any of this, I'm pretty apprehensive.  The roofing is definitely not something I'd attempt (high off the ground + Spanish clay tiles). For the interior framing, maybe that's something to consider but I also don't want to do anything inadvertently that's not to code. And when it comes to disclosures at time of sale, I don't want to get into a hairy situation either with something like this. That said - I will probably get a licensed contractor to do the re-framing work but try my best to make sure he does it correctly and things are done in the right order. I have a stucco guy (who did our weep screed) so will probably have him do the plaster work. For roofing, I need to find a more reliable roofer who also won't rip me off. Our current roofer is the biggest flake in history - so tough working and scheduling with him (the guy doesn't keep any notes or contacts - everything is in his head and he forgets *everything*). Anyway, I *may* DIY the drywall/baseboards/paint or if the drywall/texture is too overwhelming I may just have a guy we used before come in to take care of it and we just do paint & baseboards. I'm not 100% sure on the carpet though and the order (do baseboards go first then carpets? or vice-versa?).

As far as insurance is concerned, I think I am going to contact them to figure out and see if they will cover any of this or not.

One other thing is that this room is adjacent to the roofline which splits between the exterior and attic. If I open up too much drywall and too high, I actually can reach into the attic lol. I'm trying to avoid that but maybe it's unavoidable and a non-factor. I guess it depends on how rotted out the studs are - I think most of them are fine though with maybe 1-3" of rot at most and closest to the corner, where I was able to go up higher since at that point it's past the roof line and at the exterior.

[GilesMM]

I'd suspect the problem is that roof and gutter that dies into the sidewall.
With the bottom plate being that far gone I suspect the room below will have moisture issues too, in the rim joist and top plate at least, possibly into the studs as well.
If you have a moisture meter do the room below near the ceiling in that corner.
And check the walls all the way up to the ceiling in the purple room. You should get less moisture readings near the ceiling if the leak is coming from the roof I mentioned above.
Am I seeing black tar paper, or is that part of the insulation? Normally the building paper is outside the sheathing. When you pull the insulation out you should be sering the sheathing in the stud bays.
Once you get the leak solved it's not that hard to repair the framing. Cut away all the rotten parts of the studs and replace the bottom plate. Cut each stud off where you have good wood. Be careful not to shake the stucco loose, but you'll probably have to do some repairs on it anyway.
Cut short studs under each cut off stud and sister each one 12-18" above the cut off point, like a splint.

The downstairs area below is the garage. I haven't checked lately and probably should but the moisture levels weren't super crazy before. There are water stains up on the ceiling though. I'll check again in a bit. And yea, I may need to open up the drywall to see the condition of the studs. Is there a good chance that that subflooring is shot as well? What happens in that case where the edge of the subflooring is messed up and may need replacement?

Was the garage ceiling stained when you bought the place?  Did the inspector note the staining and make any remarks? 


You will need to open up the walls/floor/roof in every direction to follow the moisture/rot until you find undamaged wood.  But also be aware that water can do weird things, like travel along a beam without rotting it much then settling somewhere lower and rotting it out.  You have to look carefully to ferret out where the water went.

[jeromedawg]

I'd suspect the problem is that roof and gutter that dies into the sidewall.
With the bottom plate being that far gone I suspect the room below will have moisture issues too, in the rim joist and top plate at least, possibly into the studs as well.
If you have a moisture meter do the room below near the ceiling in that corner.
And check the walls all the way up to the ceiling in the purple room. You should get less moisture readings near the ceiling if the leak is coming from the roof I mentioned above.
Am I seeing black tar paper, or is that part of the insulation? Normally the building paper is outside the sheathing. When you pull the insulation out you should be sering the sheathing in the stud bays.
Once you get the leak solved it's not that hard to repair the framing. Cut away all the rotten parts of the studs and replace the bottom plate. Cut each stud off where you have good wood. Be careful not to shake the stucco loose, but you'll probably have to do some repairs on it anyway.
Cut short studs under each cut off stud and sister each one 12-18" above the cut off point, like a splint.

The downstairs area below is the garage. I haven't checked lately and probably should but the moisture levels weren't super crazy before. There are water stains up on the ceiling though. I'll check again in a bit. And yea, I may need to open up the drywall to see the condition of the studs. Is there a good chance that that subflooring is shot as well? What happens in that case where the edge of the subflooring is messed up and may need replacement?

Was the garage ceiling stained when you bought the place?  Did the inspector note the staining and make any remarks? 


You will need to open up the walls/floor/roof in every direction to follow the moisture/rot until you find undamaged wood.  But also be aware that water can do weird things, like travel along a beam without rotting it much then settling somewhere lower and rotting it out.  You have to look carefully to ferret out where the water went.

I don't recall whether it was or not - didn't notice. The inspector definitely didn't notice. He is a horrible inspector who missed many items (I gave him a 1-star rating on Yelp with a lengthy explanation... I may file a BBB complaint as well some time soon if I can).

I had my plaster/stucco guy come today and he asked me to open a small section of drywall to follow the flashing up the roofline. Upon doing so, I found another piece of termite-damaged wood (1x4 or 1x6) that the flashing is attached to. The contractor pointed out that they didn't even nail the flashing to a stud, which is wrong. The nail is just attached directly to the 1x4/1x6 and sticking out (in between two studs). He said we're going to need to reframe all of this and it will more than likely involve them opening up the wall from the outside. He was pretty confident about it and said we'd have to take care of that (remediating the structural damage) before dealing with fixing the flashing and reapplying the stucco, etc.

I will probably need to open the area in the garage where I see the staining and see if the damage is more extensive... I wouldn't be surprised though. And I wouldn't be surprised if there's damage in other areas of the house as well :( At some point in the future we may have to end up opening multiple walls inside to see how widespread the termite infestation was previously.

SMH, such a nightmare... I'm *hoping* insurance will cover at least part of this.

[GilesMM]

I'd suspect the problem is that roof and gutter that dies into the sidewall.
With the bottom plate being that far gone I suspect the room below will have moisture issues too, in the rim joist and top plate at least, possibly into the studs as well.
If you have a moisture meter do the room below near the ceiling in that corner.
And check the walls all the way up to the ceiling in the purple room. You should get less moisture readings near the ceiling if the leak is coming from the roof I mentioned above.
Am I seeing black tar paper, or is that part of the insulation? Normally the building paper is outside the sheathing. When you pull the insulation out you should be sering the sheathing in the stud bays.
Once you get the leak solved it's not that hard to repair the framing. Cut away all the rotten parts of the studs and replace the bottom plate. Cut each stud off where you have good wood. Be careful not to shake the stucco loose, but you'll probably have to do some repairs on it anyway.
Cut short studs under each cut off stud and sister each one 12-18" above the cut off point, like a splint.

The downstairs area below is the garage. I haven't checked lately and probably should but the moisture levels weren't super crazy before. There are water stains up on the ceiling though. I'll check again in a bit. And yea, I may need to open up the drywall to see the condition of the studs. Is there a good chance that that subflooring is shot as well? What happens in that case where the edge of the subflooring is messed up and may need replacement?

Was the garage ceiling stained when you bought the place?  Did the inspector note the staining and make any remarks? 


You will need to open up the walls/floor/roof in every direction to follow the moisture/rot until you find undamaged wood.  But also be aware that water can do weird things, like travel along a beam without rotting it much then settling somewhere lower and rotting it out.  You have to look carefully to ferret out where the water went.

I don't recall whether it was or not - didn't notice. The inspector definitely didn't notice. He is a horrible inspector who missed many items (I gave him a 1-star rating on Yelp with a lengthy explanation... I may file a BBB complaint as well some time soon if I can).

I had my plaster/stucco guy come today and he asked me to open a small section of drywall to follow the flashing up the roofline. Upon doing so, I found another piece of termite-damaged wood (1x4 or 1x6) that the flashing is attached to. The contractor pointed out that they didn't even nail the flashing to a stud, which is wrong. The nail is just attached directly to the 1x4/1x6 and sticking out (in between two studs). He said we're going to need to reframe all of this and it will more than likely involve them opening up the wall from the outside. He was pretty confident about it and said we'd have to take care of that (remediating the structural damage) before dealing with fixing the flashing and reapplying the stucco, etc.

I will probably need to open the area in the garage where I see the staining and see if the damage is more extensive... I wouldn't be surprised though. And I wouldn't be surprised if there's damage in other areas of the house as well :( At some point in the future we may have to end up opening multiple walls inside to see how widespread the termite infestation was previously.

SMH, such a nightmare... I'm *hoping* insurance will cover at least part of this.

Holy cow, that doesn't sound very good.  Lesson for everyone on quality inspectors.  Our first home we had a crummy inspector also and suffered later because of the many undetected issues (roof leaks, AC, cracking walls, cracked tile over an enclosed wobbly front porch, foundation) papered over by the shady seller.  Welcome to the club. After that we hired maniacal inspectors (often at higher cost) who went ape on the property, producing vast reports.  We always used these to re-evaluate the deal, terminating several (including one for bad stucco!) and greatly reducing the price on others.


The termites are concerning. Are they common in Socal?  Do you know how they gained entry?  Are you sure they are gone?  I'm dealing with a little termite issue just now in a barn and will just spray it myself.  They are gone but want to make sure they don't return.

[jeromedawg]

I'd suspect the problem is that roof and gutter that dies into the sidewall.
With the bottom plate being that far gone I suspect the room below will have moisture issues too, in the rim joist and top plate at least, possibly into the studs as well.
If you have a moisture meter do the room below near the ceiling in that corner.
And check the walls all the way up to the ceiling in the purple room. You should get less moisture readings near the ceiling if the leak is coming from the roof I mentioned above.
Am I seeing black tar paper, or is that part of the insulation? Normally the building paper is outside the sheathing. When you pull the insulation out you should be sering the sheathing in the stud bays.
Once you get the leak solved it's not that hard to repair the framing. Cut away all the rotten parts of the studs and replace the bottom plate. Cut each stud off where you have good wood. Be careful not to shake the stucco loose, but you'll probably have to do some repairs on it anyway.
Cut short studs under each cut off stud and sister each one 12-18" above the cut off point, like a splint.

The downstairs area below is the garage. I haven't checked lately and probably should but the moisture levels weren't super crazy before. There are water stains up on the ceiling though. I'll check again in a bit. And yea, I may need to open up the drywall to see the condition of the studs. Is there a good chance that that subflooring is shot as well? What happens in that case where the edge of the subflooring is messed up and may need replacement?

Was the garage ceiling stained when you bought the place?  Did the inspector note the staining and make any remarks? 


You will need to open up the walls/floor/roof in every direction to follow the moisture/rot until you find undamaged wood.  But also be aware that water can do weird things, like travel along a beam without rotting it much then settling somewhere lower and rotting it out.  You have to look carefully to ferret out where the water went.

I don't recall whether it was or not - didn't notice. The inspector definitely didn't notice. He is a horrible inspector who missed many items (I gave him a 1-star rating on Yelp with a lengthy explanation... I may file a BBB complaint as well some time soon if I can).

I had my plaster/stucco guy come today and he asked me to open a small section of drywall to follow the flashing up the roofline. Upon doing so, I found another piece of termite-damaged wood (1x4 or 1x6) that the flashing is attached to. The contractor pointed out that they didn't even nail the flashing to a stud, which is wrong. The nail is just attached directly to the 1x4/1x6 and sticking out (in between two studs). He said we're going to need to reframe all of this and it will more than likely involve them opening up the wall from the outside. He was pretty confident about it and said we'd have to take care of that (remediating the structural damage) before dealing with fixing the flashing and reapplying the stucco, etc.

I will probably need to open the area in the garage where I see the staining and see if the damage is more extensive... I wouldn't be surprised though. And I wouldn't be surprised if there's damage in other areas of the house as well :( At some point in the future we may have to end up opening multiple walls inside to see how widespread the termite infestation was previously.

SMH, such a nightmare... I'm *hoping* insurance will cover at least part of this.

Holy cow, that doesn't sound very good.  Lesson for everyone on quality inspectors.  Our first home we had a crummy inspector also and suffered later because of the many undetected issues (roof leaks, AC, cracking walls, cracked tile over an enclosed wobbly front porch, foundation) papered over by the shady seller.  Welcome to the club. After that we hired maniacal inspectors (often at higher cost) who went ape on the property, producing vast reports.  We always used these to re-evaluate the deal, terminating several (including one for bad stucco!) and greatly reducing the price on others.


The termites are concerning. Are they common in Socal?  Do you know how they gained entry?  Are you sure they are gone?  I'm dealing with a little termite issue just now in a barn and will just spray it myself.  They are gone but want to make sure they don't return.

Yea, it really sucks. We've consistently had problems with this place since the day we moved in (the other big nightmare was fallout from a major rat infestation - I had posted about this here too lol).

As far as the termites, I'm suspecting they gained entry from the area where the leak is emanating from - from the inside of the house you can see daylight. And a majority of the termite damage itself is right in this area as well. This looks to be old termite damage from before we moved in - we did have the home fumigated a couple years back before moving in. I don't see (or hear) any signs of existing termites - I think usually you'd be able to hear *crunching* as well as see wings and new frass and such. Haven't observed any of that thus far (*knock on wood*) but it may not hurt to get things checked again either. That said, our neighbor across from us had to have their *entire* roof rebuilt and I'm suspecting from termite damage as well - it looked bad. Similar issues with the neighbor two doors down, but he was telling me most of his issues were water damage/rot related. Still, I wouldn't be surprised if termites got into his structure as well. I think the design of these homes just wasn't thought out well for those multiples kinds of issues. It is an older build as well (1980). Termites are pretty common down this way - they aren't the subterranean type but the flying kind. It's such a PITA to deal with them in houses like ours too, because if you want to fumigate, it means anticipating XX number of broken Spanish clay tiles :( - I think it's just a sunk cost that goes into the cost of fumigating any time you do it on a house with delicate tiles...unless we were to change our roof out completely haha

[sonofsven]

I've never worked on a stucco wall (they are not common at all in my area of cedar shingles 60"+rain per year), but is that a traditional hard stucco wall or an EIFS synthetic stucco wall system?
There's been lots of EIFS horror stories so for your sake I hope it isn't.
If it is you might need to consider replacing it all.

[jeromedawg]

I've never worked on a stucco wall (they are not common at all in my area of cedar shingles 60"+rain per year), but is that a traditional hard stucco wall or an EIFS synthetic stucco wall system?
There's been lots of EIFS horror stories so for your sake I hope it isn't.
If it is you might need to consider replacing it all.

I'm not sure if it's EIFS synthetic stucco - never heard of that. I don't think it is though - first, our stucco/plaster guy hasn't mentioned anything about noticing that at our place and from what I've seen, we do have multiple layers of the classic stucco elements (sheating, tar paper, metal lath, plaster, scratch coat, stucco, etc). EIFS sounds like it has foam/insulation 'built-in' - I haven't seen any of that at our place. It sounds like EIFS was something they tried to invent to improve stucco and it was a fail... I'm pretty sure we don't have any of that. It does sound like a nightmare :(

[Metalcat]

Duuude...

I can't believe your house is still fucking with you.

[jeromedawg]

Duuude...

I can't believe your house is still fucking with you.

lol... it's the curse of the rats (and squirrels). They've partnered up with the termites and rain to get back at me. I'm pretty sure the inspector and previous owner were in on it with them too. Bastards.

[Metalcat]

Duuude...

I can't believe your house is still fucking with you.

lol... it's the curse of the rats (and squirrels). They've partnered up with the termites and rain to get back at me. I'm pretty sure the inspector and previous owner were in on it with them too. Bastards.

The rats are obviously the masterminds of the operation, you know that.

[jeromedawg]

Well

Duuude...

I can't believe your house is still fucking with you.

lol... it's the curse of the rats (and squirrels). They've partnered up with the termites and rain to get back at me. I'm pretty sure the inspector and previous owner were in on it with them too. Bastards.

The rats are obviously the masterminds of the operation, you know that.

Well, the previous owner is definitely a rat...

Anyway, I've spoken with a couple lawyers so far. Both are suggesting small claims with the amount of damages involved here (I'm ballparking $20k at this point based on what we've already "fixed" and what the future quotes might be based on how extensive the damage is). Even if we won at $20k, after all the lawyer fees, etc we probably wouldn't be too far from $10k (which is the max for small claims in CA) and might as well have considered small claims. The last lawyer I spoke with was warning that collections could be a PITA if the seller doesn't want to pay up. In that case, the best we can do is put a lien against his current property for a percentage based on the damages awarded (hopefully the full $10k if we do go through with it).

[Metalcat]

Well

Duuude...

I can't believe your house is still fucking with you.

lol... it's the curse of the rats (and squirrels). They've partnered up with the termites and rain to get back at me. I'm pretty sure the inspector and previous owner were in on it with them too. Bastards.

The rats are obviously the masterminds of the operation, you know that.

Well, the previous owner is definitely a rat...

Anyway, I've spoken with a couple lawyers so far. Both are suggesting small claims with the amount of damages involved here (I'm ballparking $20k at this point based on what we've already "fixed" and what the future quotes might be based on how extensive the damage is). Even if we won at $20k, after all the lawyer fees, etc we probably wouldn't be too far from $10k (which is the max for small claims in CA) and might as well have considered small claims. The last lawyer I spoke with was warning that collections could be a PITA if the seller doesn't want to pay up. In that case, the best we can do is put a lien against his current property for a percentage based on the damages awarded (hopefully the full $10k if we do go through with it).

Ugh, so awful.

This is the weirdo who let all the rats in by leaving the doors open constantly, right?

Did your neighbours ever get over their attitude towards you about him?

[jeromedawg]

Well

Duuude...

I can't believe your house is still fucking with you.

lol... it's the curse of the rats (and squirrels). They've partnered up with the termites and rain to get back at me. I'm pretty sure the inspector and previous owner were in on it with them too. Bastards.

The rats are obviously the masterminds of the operation, you know that.

Well, the previous owner is definitely a rat...

Anyway, I've spoken with a couple lawyers so far. Both are suggesting small claims with the amount of damages involved here (I'm ballparking $20k at this point based on what we've already "fixed" and what the future quotes might be based on how extensive the damage is). Even if we won at $20k, after all the lawyer fees, etc we probably wouldn't be too far from $10k (which is the max for small claims in CA) and might as well have considered small claims. The last lawyer I spoke with was warning that collections could be a PITA if the seller doesn't want to pay up. In that case, the best we can do is put a lien against his current property for a percentage based on the damages awarded (hopefully the full $10k if we do go through with it).

Ugh, so awful.

This is the weirdo who let all the rats in by leaving the doors open constantly, right?

Did your neighbours ever get over their attitude towards you about him?

Yea, that's him. We see him driving down our street at least once every month or more. I think he's feeling nostalgic and probably interested to see if we're fixing all of the problems he left us with.... idiot.

Since moving in, we have shared about our experiences with our neighbors directly next to us, and I think it has painted a slightly different picture of the guy as far as what they know of him. So yea, as far as the weirdness, there really isn't any of that these days at least. We're not buddy-buddy with our neighbors and some are friendlier and more willing to talk than others but I don't get the sense of them not liking us. I think he's still really good friends with one neighbor across from us (I'll see his car parked over there every now and then... like for Superbowl Sunday, random bday parties, etc). Because of that, we're more particular and reserved with what we say (especially about the house) to that neighbor specifically. But he has always been pretty friendly with us (short conversations but friendly)

[jeromedawg]

Quick update: insurance denied the claim so pretty sure we're SOL on that. We did get a roof inspection done though and a few different things were called out and I have the report. I had a different roofer come out today to get a bid from but he was saying the roofer that did this underlayment replacement didn't do a very good job (I sent the report to the roofer who came today so will get his thoughts on that as well). He was saying that the original roofer should have replaced the section of rotted wood beam and the z-flashing attached to it where the leak is and should have mitigated the issue then and there - benefit of the doubt says the roofer was just clueless to this and didn't know there was a leak or that the wood beam behind it was rotted (he may have just pulled the flashing back just enough to wedge the underlayment back under it... the thing is, I actually have the invoice of his work from the previous owners stating what he *said* was done on the roof back in 2020 and it seems to indicate that he replaced all the flashing). Anyway, if "benefit of the doubt" is correct, flakey roofer is a sucky roofer!
The previous owner seems like he was either just as clueless or he knew there was a problem but ignored it. Roofer today was encouraging me to try to hound the flakey roofer who replaced the underlayment (and who I can't get to come back out here for the life of me). I'm fed up with the guy though - he's one of those "I'm always right" kinds of guys too so even more irritating.  Supposedly the original underlayment replacement job comes with a 10 yr warranty but I'm almost positive he will try to weasel out of it somehow and descope the concerns/problems. I'm trying to just confirm with other roofers if what they see in the invoice actually corresponds with what they observed - if anything, they should be able to tell if the guy was BSing or not. It's "warranty relay" which I'm guessing means it's transferable?
All that to say, even if he's in the wrong, I still think it'll be heck of a time trying to get him to actually show up :T

Amidst all of this, we're still mulling over small claims. The lawyers I've spoken with don't seem to think I have the strongest case and feel that to really make it a solid win I need some kind of "smoking gun" evidence. Nothing I have is exactly "smoking gun" even though, logically, you should be able to conclude that the previous homeowner was lying under his breath. I don't know what to do - this is really frustrating and overwhelming. I'm trying just to focus on the repairs. My wife was kind of pushing for the lawsuit/small claims court but I told her that if she really wants that she needs to step up and take it over because I really can't juggle dealing with the repairs and fixes + handling the stress of filing a claim against the previous owner etc.

EDIT, for anyone interested, here is the invoice with scope of work from the flakey roofer:




I bet the flakey roofer, if called out, is gonna say he only replaced the flashing around one chimney and that his scope of work doesn't say "chimneys" LOL!

[Metalcat]

Fuuuuuck

That sucks.

[zygote]

Ooof, this house.

I get that it's a lot of money, but imo it's not worth the stress of dealing with the flakey roofer or even the small claims court. At this point, I'd just focus on getting tradesmen in who are going to get the problem(s) in good shape and enjoy your repaired house.

Is it crappy that the first owner lied and that some of the tradesmen have done crappy work? Yeah. Does it improve things if you go after them instead of spending your energy fixing up the house? Not really. At this point it is what it is.

[GilesMM]

Sounds like you are getting some better advice on repairs. I would select a good contractor and get moving on it.  Forget the flake.


I would pursue small claims. It's cheap, fun and easy.  You simply write up your claim as concisely as you can and attach it to the form.  You pay a nominal filing fee and you are good to go.  You will get to see a judge and make your case along with the opposing party.  If you win, the other party may pay (or may not). As you are in SoCal you could even end up on Judge Judy!!


Even if you lose it is an educational process and a great thing to learn in case you need it again or are sued in small claims or regular civil court.  I did it years ago against a shady homebuilder.


Good luck!


PS You should remove your address of the last photo you posted.  Never smart to post personal details online but especially when civil action is under contemplation as the counter party may find these pages.

[sonofsven]

If you do go to small claims and win, you can attach the judgement to their real property, if they own any. Then if they sell or refinance the property they will have to pay you, with interest.

I was involved in another lawsuit similar to your situation. Some clients I worked for were sued by the party who bought their house.
The new owners found substantial rot after the purchase when they were doing a remodel and accused my clients of covering it up and not disclosing it.

I didn't work on the house in question, but on another of their homes (a rental). I was subpoenaed to testify anyway.

The whole thing boiled down to one question, on my end: had I told the clients the work I did on the rental required a building permit?

I had, and I did get all the permits necessary. This was enough for my clients to lose the case. I have no idea if they really did cover up the damage or not, but there were very high priced lawyers involved on both sides, so if you pursue this, be ready with your own high priced law firm.

[jeromedawg]

Sounds like you are getting some better advice on repairs. I would select a good contractor and get moving on it.  Forget the flake.


I would pursue small claims. It's cheap, fun and easy.  You simply write up your claim as concisely as you can and attach it to the form.  You pay a nominal filing fee and you are good to go.  You will get to see a judge and make your case along with the opposing party.  If you win, the other party may pay (or may not). As you are in SoCal you could even end up on Judge Judy!!


Even if you lose it is an educational process and a great thing to learn in case you need it again or are sued in small claims or regular civil court.  I did it years ago against a shady homebuilder.


Good luck!


PS You should remove your address of the last photo you posted.  Never smart to post personal details online but especially when civil action is under contemplation as the counter party may find these pages.

LOL, thanks for the catch on the address... now that the cat is out of the bag and everyone knows where I live :T So stupid... I was copying and pasting that same image to the other roofing contractor and inspector and totally overlooked the fact that I left the address on when posting it here :(

The thing about the flakey roofer is that he offered a transferable(?) 10yr warranty on his work. It *seems* as though the work he did was subpar and so he should be held to making it right. If he doesn't it sounds like he could be on the hook legally as well and that situation could erupt into another small claims case...? I'm also wondering if the seller's realtor and or home inspector should be accountable for anything as well. I have the correspondence between our realtor and the seller's realtor from when we were renting back to the owner and found evidence of rodents in the house - our realtor kept pressing theirs and asking about the rodents and for our deposit back and the seller's realtor just brushed it off and either side-stepped or ignored and didn't respond (this was all over text).
Our home inspector just missed a ton of things (the lawyer I spoke with yesterday briefly mentioned that he is working on a case against a home inspector who did a really terrible job, so it made me stop and think if that's something to consider pursuing if viable...)

Anyway, I keep thinking about our lack of "smoking gun" evidence and how that will impact the success (or not) of this claim. We don't have a picture of the fallen tree on the home (just a 3rd party account from a neighbor who confirmed with my wife via text last night that she saw the tree either hit the house or on the house but no other details... she also says she thinks it was 10 years ago but the tree that was reported removed was back in early 2017). The rats, I don't really know how much we have to go off of and even the other issues. I sent everything over to the lawyer who I spoke with yesterday to review so maybe, upon his looking through everything, he'll spot that "smoking gun" - at least, I'm sort of leaning on him to identify *something* - if not, then I'm not sure it'll be worth the time and effort to go through with it as it's a lot. Especially if we end up losing the claim or getting a minimal amount out of it.

If you do go to small claims and win, you can attach the judgement to their real property, if they own any. Then if they sell or refinance the property they will have to pay you, with interest.

I was involved in another lawsuit similar to your situation. Some clients I worked for were sued by the party who bought their house.
The new owners found substantial rot after the purchase when they were doing a remodel and accused my clients of covering it up and not disclosing it.

I didn't work on the house in question, but on another of their homes (a rental). I was subpoenaed to testify anyway.

The whole thing boiled down to one question, on my end: had I told the clients the work I did on the rental required a building permit?

I had, and I did get all the permits necessary. This was enough for my clients to lose the case. I have no idea if they really did cover up the damage or not, but there were very high priced lawyers involved on both sides, so if you pursue this, be ready with your own high priced law firm.

This is what I was told by a lawyer as well - we can put a lien on their current property(ies) when it comes time for them to sell. I looked up the previous owners and found that they have two properties that they purchased in the area so not sure if a lien would go against one or both.
We're going through our legal plan for help and a majority of lawyers are telling me to go through small claims because the total amount of damages isn't large enough to make it "worth while"

Wow, so it sounds like they were using you as a 'baseline' to establish whether or not permits were pulled. And sounds like the house in question clearly did not have permits pulled... so because you pulled permits for them on a different home/project, they were held to that standard and clearly didn't hold to it when doing work on this other house and thus lost? Sounds like there must have been a very large amount of money involved to justify involved high cost lawyers.

[jeromedawg]

I just spoke with the roof inspector and he was saying the warranty from the roofer likely isn't going to be transferable so even if the flakey roofer didn't do all that he said he did, we wouldn't have a foot to stand on in terms of having him cover any related work under warranty...

So I wonder what "warranty relay" means then - I read that as "transferable" but I'm not familiar with the terminology.