Overheard at Work 2

[Taran Wanderer]

The interesting thing about the chemical weapons - mustard, Sarin, VX - is that the burning process is very effective at destroying them, and they burn easily. They tested the incinerator on propylene glycol, which also burns, but is much more difficult to burn completely. Once they burned the propylene glycol effectively, they could start in on the weapons.

Of course, a tiny drop of propylene glycol won’t kill you.

[zolotiyeruki]

I was chatting with the company president this morning, and he told me about a previous business partner/friend.  This partner, along with her husband, have liquid assets of ~$7million.  Partner is really smart, has held highly lucrative jobs and owned/sold a number of profitable small companies.  And yet, her husband recently had to go back to work so they'd have W-2 income so they could get a mortgage on their new home, and she reached out to my president to see if he has leads on good business opportunities.

What happened?

Well, 12 years ago, when partner and my president met, she was renting an apartment in SF, and her goal was a steady income of $120k.  A few years later, she bought a condo in Las Vegas.  A few years after that, she and her husband moved to Texas to build their dream home.  Most recently, they moved to Colorado and built a $3.5 million dream home. Their current expenses are....$500k/year, for a family of four.  Where does it all go? I don't know many details, but a $3m mortgage at 6% is $216k/year, and their two kids' private school tuition is $60k.

Good heavens.  That still leaves you with a whopping 224 thousand dollars to spend on the rest of your lifestyle.  Talk about Hedonic adaptation!

[partgypsy]

I was chatting with the company president this morning, and he told me about a previous business partner/friend.  This partner, along with her husband, have liquid assets of ~$7million.  Partner is really smart, has held highly lucrative jobs and owned/sold a number of profitable small companies.  And yet, her husband recently had to go back to work so they'd have W-2 income so they could get a mortgage on their new home, and she reached out to my president to see if he has leads on good business opportunities.

What happened?

Well, 12 years ago, when partner and my president met, she was renting an apartment in SF, and her goal was a steady income of $120k.  A few years later, she bought a condo in Las Vegas.  A few years after that, she and her husband moved to Texas to build their dream home.  Most recently, they moved to Colorado and built a $3.5 million dream home. Their current expenses are....$500k/year, for a family of four.  Where does it all go? I don't know many details, but a $3m mortgage at 6% is $216k/year, and their two kids' private school tuition is $60k.

Good heavens.  That still leaves you with a whopping 224 thousand dollars to spend on the rest of your lifestyle.  Talk about Hedonic adaptation!

This is so far from my reality I don't understand either.

[Sandi_k]

Their current expenses are....$500k/year, for a family of four.  Where does it all go? I don't know many details, but a $3m mortgage at 6% is $216k/year, and their two kids' private school tuition is $60k.

Good heavens.  That still leaves you with a whopping 224 thousand dollars to spend on the rest of your lifestyle.  Talk about Hedonic adaptation!

It doesn't, though. You're not accounting for income taxes and insurance, which I would assume are a very large percentage of that remaining $224k.

But yeah - that's insane.

[zolotiyeruki]

Their current expenses are....$500k/year, for a family of four.  Where does it all go? I don't know many details, but a $3m mortgage at 6% is $216k/year, and their two kids' private school tuition is $60k.

Good heavens.  That still leaves you with a whopping 224 thousand dollars to spend on the rest of your lifestyle.  Talk about Hedonic adaptation!

It doesn't, though. You're not accounting for income taxes and insurance, which I would assume are a very large percentage of that remaining $224k.

But yeah - that's insane.

You could be right, but the way I heard it, it's their spending that's $500k, not their income.

[Laura33]

the way I heard it, it's their spending that's $500k, not their income.

As the Dixie Chicks said, there's your trouble.

[Sibley]

Talk about lifestyle inflation. Sheesh. They made that bed, they can lie in it.

[PMG]

I thought I had stumbled into that 10M is not enough thread. 

[zolotiyeruki]

the way I heard it, it's their spending that's $500k, not their income.

As the Dixie Chicks said, there's your trouble.

"But the house is so beautiful!"  Yeah, when the interest on your home mortgage is triple the current median household income, it had BETTER be amazing.

[ATtiny85]

I thought I had stumbled into that 10M is not enough thread.

There's so much nuttiness that a single thread is just not enough sometimes.

[JAYSLOL]

A few new coworkers this season, two of them drive small cars and I haven’t heard either of them complain about money problems.  Two of them drive full size trucks, and both of them have complained about money problems.  Probably a complete coincidence, right? 

[LennStar]

A few new coworkers this season, two of them drive small cars and I haven’t heard either of them complain about money problems.  Two of them drive full size trucks, and both of them have complained about money problems.  Probably a complete coincidence, right?

Correlation is not causation. It could be the guys with the small cars have inherited big while the others have to pay high cost care for relatives.

[reeshau]

A few new coworkers this season, two of them drive small cars and I haven’t heard either of them complain about money problems.  Two of them drive full size trucks, and both of them have complained about money problems.  Probably a complete coincidence, right?

Correlation is not causation. It could be the guys with the small cars have inherited big while the others have to pay high cost care for relatives.

I think there could be more of a direct link than that.  Do the two truck guys have a real reason for owning the truck?  Work crew hauling stuff?  Rural home in a mountainous area, or with severe winter?  Or is it to haul their boat to their vacation cabin?  Maybe even worse, it is just their daily driver...

[JAYSLOL]

A few new coworkers this season, two of them drive small cars and I haven’t heard either of them complain about money problems.  Two of them drive full size trucks, and both of them have complained about money problems.  Probably a complete coincidence, right?

Correlation is not causation. It could be the guys with the small cars have inherited big while the others have to pay high cost care for relatives.

I think there could be more of a direct link than that.  Do the two truck guys have a real reason for owning the truck?  Work crew hauling stuff?  Rural home in a mountainous area, or with severe winter?  Or is it to haul their boat to their vacation cabin?  Maybe even worse, it is just their daily driver...

Both are using the trucks as daily drivers, they drive company vehicles once they get to work (not rural, hwy and city driving in this area).  Of the two car people one of them is a younger person in their early 20s, and one nearing retirement age, and of the truck people, one is a 30-something, and one is nearing retirement age. 

[JAYSLOL]

A few new coworkers this season, two of them drive small cars and I haven’t heard either of them complain about money problems.  Two of them drive full size trucks, and both of them have complained about money problems.  Probably a complete coincidence, right?

Correlation is not causation. It could be the guys with the small cars have inherited big while the others have to pay high cost care for relatives.

All the more reason to not drive a v8 pickup 30-50 miles each way to work and back every day

[Laura33]

A few new coworkers this season, two of them drive small cars and I haven’t heard either of them complain about money problems.  Two of them drive full size trucks, and both of them have complained about money problems.  Probably a complete coincidence, right?

Correlation is not causation. It could be the guys with the small cars have inherited big while the others have to pay high cost care for relatives.

Well, there's always a possible explanation.  But odds are pretty strong that there's a causal link here. 

A truck makes sense if you need it -- if you run a farm or a business, for ex.  These guys don't -- they work office jobs and commute on paved roads.  What they "need" is a commuter vehicle.  Yet they've chosen a vehicle that costs more to buy and more to operate.  Think about that:  they have voluntarily chosen to spend more money on a vehicle that is less well-designed for its intended use.  So clearly, any financial goals they have take a back seat to other priorities.

I mean, when financial and practical considerations say a small, efficient car is the best vehicle, and yet someone buys a big truck instead, they're kinda telling you what they care about (and what they don't). 

(Yes, I hear everyone saying, "but what if they need to tow a camper? a truck makes more sense than two vehicles."  But that takes me right back to priorities:  if you are constantly short on money, you can't afford a camper that requires a big truck to tow it.)

[TheGrimSqueaker]

(Yes, I hear everyone saying, "but what if they need to tow a camper? a truck makes more sense than two vehicles."  But that takes me right back to priorities:  if you are constantly short on money, you can't afford a camper that requires a big truck to tow it.)

You're describing a case in which the truck is part of a bigger Diderot unity. That's a very common thing. Spending on one thing begets spending on another thing. I know a debt-slave family with two breadwinners and minor children who have every toy known to man, and they "need" a truck to transport it all. They struggle financially, according to the wife, and have a great deal of debt. They're a great family, I love the kids, but I marvel at their landfill-magnet ways. Were they to suddenly switch to the small-used-car lifestyle, they'd have no way to enjoy some of their other luxuries that they're probably still paying for. I can see how that would put a person in a rut.

The solution, I think, is to work everything out early on when considering a major expenditure like a camper. It's more than how a person can make the payments: there's also maintenance, storage, repair, and schlepping it around.

[mm1970]

(Yes, I hear everyone saying, "but what if they need to tow a camper? a truck makes more sense than two vehicles."  But that takes me right back to priorities:  if you are constantly short on money, you can't afford a camper that requires a big truck to tow it.)

You're describing a case in which the truck is part of a bigger Diderot unity. That's a very common thing. Spending on one thing begets spending on another thing. I know a debt-slave family with two breadwinners and minor children who have every toy known to man, and they "need" a truck to transport it all. They struggle financially, according to the wife, and have a great deal of debt. They're a great family, I love the kids, but I marvel at their landfill-magnet ways. Were they to suddenly switch to the small-used-car lifestyle, they'd have no way to enjoy some of their other luxuries that they're probably still paying for. I can see how that would put a person in a rut.

The solution, I think, is to work everything out early on when considering a major expenditure like a camper. It's more than how a person can make the payments: there's also maintenance, storage, repair, and schlepping it around.

Yep.  I've got friends with trucks and campers.  Generally, they use them, but often, they complain about money.

I talked to a coworker yesterday about how fun an RV would be, just drive and it's so much easier than tent camping.  I like road trips and camping, the family doesn't.  Many years ago, when kid #1 was 3 or 4, I was looking at teardrop trailers and pop up trailers.  But...there was nothing light enough that could be towed by our big car, which is a Matrix.  Plus, the teardrops, at 1000 lb for the smallest, only sleep 3 - then I got pregnant.  I realized that I'd need a bigger car to tow anything. 

But not just a SLIGHTLY bigger car, because even a small SUV like a RAV4 cannot tow anything either.  Plus we don't travel much.  So, it just didn't make sense.  We just camped less, if at all.

Welp, I am still driving that 2006 Matrix.  I took it tent camping in Moab last year (so. much. fun.)  Instead of replacing it, we spent a few k on repainting the 09 Civic with peeling paint (known defect of that year).  Even this morning, I was thinking that this car will make it past 20 years, easy.

I'm not anti-toy, but I think you have to be honest about how much use they will get, and how much you can afford.

[AMandM]

The solution, I think, is to work everything out early on when considering a major expenditure like a camper.

I once had a neighbour who bought a huge RV that literally was fancier than my house. It had satellite TV whereas we didn't have even cable, it had a microwave and we didn't, etc. It might even have had an extra 1/2 bath, but I'm not sure.  AND THEN she discovered that her vehicle couldn't tow it, so the RV sat in our town's campground for a year until they could afford the bigger vehicle.

[reeshau]

(Yes, I hear everyone saying, "but what if they need to tow a camper? a truck makes more sense than two vehicles."  But that takes me right back to priorities:  if you are constantly short on money, you can't afford a camper that requires a big truck to tow it.)

You're describing a case in which the truck is part of a bigger Diderot unity. That's a very common thing. Spending on one thing begets spending on another thing. I know a debt-slave family with two breadwinners and minor children who have every toy known to man, and they "need" a truck to transport it all. They struggle financially, according to the wife, and have a great deal of debt. They're a great family, I love the kids, but I marvel at their landfill-magnet ways. Were they to suddenly switch to the small-used-car lifestyle, they'd have no way to enjoy some of their other luxuries that they're probably still paying for. I can see how that would put a person in a rut.

The solution, I think, is to work everything out early on when considering a major expenditure like a camper. It's more than how a person can make the payments: there's also maintenance, storage, repair, and schlepping it around.

So true.  The next step is the indefinite use of a storage unit.

Carlin [uncensored] knew all about the obsession with stuff: https://youtu.be/MvgN5gCuLac?si=hPzivQzovmk4xXSt

[Wintergreen78]

(Yes, I hear everyone saying, "but what if they need to tow a camper? a truck makes more sense than two vehicles."  But that takes me right back to priorities:  if you are constantly short on money, you can't afford a camper that requires a big truck to tow it.)

You're describing a case in which the truck is part of a bigger Diderot unity. That's a very common thing. Spending on one thing begets spending on another thing. I know a debt-slave family with two breadwinners and minor children who have every toy known to man, and they "need" a truck to transport it all. They struggle financially, according to the wife, and have a great deal of debt. They're a great family, I love the kids, but I marvel at their landfill-magnet ways. Were they to suddenly switch to the small-used-car lifestyle, they'd have no way to enjoy some of their other luxuries that they're probably still paying for. I can see how that would put a person in a rut.

The solution, I think, is to work everything out early on when considering a major expenditure like a camper. It's more than how a person can make the payments: there's also maintenance, storage, repair, and schlepping it around.

Yep.  I've got friends with trucks and campers.  Generally, they use them, but often, they complain about money.

I talked to a coworker yesterday about how fun an RV would be, just drive and it's so much easier than tent camping.  I like road trips and camping, the family doesn't.  Many years ago, when kid #1 was 3 or 4, I was looking at teardrop trailers and pop up trailers.  But...there was nothing light enough that could be towed by our big car, which is a Matrix.  Plus, the teardrops, at 1000 lb for the smallest, only sleep 3 - then I got pregnant.  I realized that I'd need a bigger car to tow anything. 

But not just a SLIGHTLY bigger car, because even a small SUV like a RAV4 cannot tow anything either.  Plus we don't travel much.  So, it just didn't make sense.  We just camped less, if at all.

Welp, I am still driving that 2006 Matrix.  I took it tent camping in Moab last year (so. much. fun.)  Instead of replacing it, we spent a few k on repainting the 09 Civic with peeling paint (known defect of that year).  Even this morning, I was thinking that this car will make it past 20 years, easy.

I'm not anti-toy, but I think you have to be honest about how much use they will get, and how much you can afford.

I’ve done the same! I start daydreaming about how nice a camper would be for certain trips, but then I just figure out how many $200 nights in hotels it would equal. So, I go tent camping with my hatchback and don’t feel bad at all if I decide to spend a night in a hotel every once in a while on a road trip. I’m still many tens of thousands of dollars ahead even the cheapest camper.

[farmecologist]

(Yes, I hear everyone saying, "but what if they need to tow a camper? a truck makes more sense than two vehicles."  But that takes me right back to priorities:  if you are constantly short on money, you can't afford a camper that requires a big truck to tow it.)

You're describing a case in which the truck is part of a bigger Diderot unity. That's a very common thing. Spending on one thing begets spending on another thing. I know a debt-slave family with two breadwinners and minor children who have every toy known to man, and they "need" a truck to transport it all. They struggle financially, according to the wife, and have a great deal of debt. They're a great family, I love the kids, but I marvel at their landfill-magnet ways. Were they to suddenly switch to the small-used-car lifestyle, they'd have no way to enjoy some of their other luxuries that they're probably still paying for. I can see how that would put a person in a rut.

The solution, I think, is to work everything out early on when considering a major expenditure like a camper. It's more than how a person can make the payments: there's also maintenance, storage, repair, and schlepping it around.

Yep.  I've got friends with trucks and campers.  Generally, they use them, but often, they complain about money.

I talked to a coworker yesterday about how fun an RV would be, just drive and it's so much easier than tent camping.  I like road trips and camping, the family doesn't.  Many years ago, when kid #1 was 3 or 4, I was looking at teardrop trailers and pop up trailers.  But...there was nothing light enough that could be towed by our big car, which is a Matrix.  Plus, the teardrops, at 1000 lb for the smallest, only sleep 3 - then I got pregnant.  I realized that I'd need a bigger car to tow anything. 

But not just a SLIGHTLY bigger car, because even a small SUV like a RAV4 cannot tow anything either.  Plus we don't travel much.  So, it just didn't make sense.  We just camped less, if at all.

Welp, I am still driving that 2006 Matrix.  I took it tent camping in Moab last year (so. much. fun.)  Instead of replacing it, we spent a few k on repainting the 09 Civic with peeling paint (known defect of that year).  Even this morning, I was thinking that this car will make it past 20 years, easy.

I'm not anti-toy, but I think you have to be honest about how much use they will get, and how much you can afford.

I’ve done the same! I start daydreaming about how nice a camper would be for certain trips, but then I just figure out how many $200 nights in hotels it would equal. So, I go tent camping with my hatchback and don’t feel bad at all if I decide to spend a night in a hotel every once in a while on a road trip. I’m still many tens of thousands of dollars ahead even the cheapest camper.

I'm amazed at how much people are paying per night to "camp" in their RV/camper these days...it is getting insane!  Even "basic" RV parks are getting expensive. These RV parks are often overcrowded and are NOT the idyllic scene you see in the commercials and marketing materials.

As for getting your money's worth, people have good intentions, but reality usually sets in.  That is why you see a ton of used RVs and campers on the lots...at least around here.  We live in Minnesota and also see a similar thing going on with boats.

My view may be tainted a bit due to the fact that my father had an RV and poured WAY too much money into it, and didn't use it all that much.  He had to leave the thing sitting on a "storage" lot, which he paid rent for.   As for maintenance, there was a lot.  Engine broke down once or twice, and tire changes were over $2K!  All in all, RVs are not at all a way to "Save money" on travel, despite people convincing themselves they are.   

Personally, our strategy is to have an efficient car for road tripping and stay in hotels ( often paid for with points, etc... ).  And do tent camping here and there ( in parks, etc... ).  I'd wager our total out of pocket is quite a bit less than most RV/camper owners.

[Fomerly known as something]

I went to the RV show one year in my hometown.  While it was fun to see, I too kept thinking welp, can’t tow this one either even when I got to the tiny ones. 

However, I was amazed people were buying them, right there at the show.

[Villanelle]

My local military spouse facebook group frequently sees new arrivals asking for recommendations on places to store their RVs.  they can pay $100+ per month, sometimes much more, for a parking spot to hold their depreciating asset. 

We also regularly see people who have decided to live 1.5 hours+ way from work.  Homes are very expensive here, and they can get something larger and cheaper living that far out.  In many cases, they plan to take the doll roads, which can be $20+ *each way*, every day.  Even ignoring the wear and tear on the car, it's insanisty, of course.  When I point out that for $800+ ($40/day which is conservative for the tolls as they are sometimes higher since they are based on use at the time, for 20 workdays), they could live much closer, and get a couple hours of their day back.  It's rarely received well. 

Facebook has a feature where you can see all of someone's posts in a group.  There' definitely seems to be a large middle section in the venn diagram of "where can I pay $XXX per month to park an RV" and the ones complaining about home prices, or the ones making the decision to live 2 hours and $20 away from work. 

[jeninco]

On the (kinda) other hand, we were driving -- and camping in -- a 73 blazer when we had our first kid in 2001, and pretty much immediately went out and purchased a new (!) Eurovan (for cash). We haven't made that many trips per year, but that thing has definitely been worth it: first car camping with one (then two) small kids, camping trips out to the Utah desert, it's been a great vehicle for longer drives: it's easy to pull over, even in bad weather, pop up the top and the table and sit down for a real lunch. Not to mention how awesome it is to pull into a smaller ski area early, park near the front, go ski for a couple of hours, (we can put on our boots in the vehicle!) then go back to the car, pop up the top and table and stretch out for a packed lunch, then go back to skiing.

Now the problem is that the thing is 23 years old, the transmission is starting to go (along with all the soft parts of the engine and gaskets) and we can't replace it with anything that even vaguely meets our requirements: doesn't get WORSE mileage, has a pop top that we can stand up in, is comfy for sleeping.

[TheGrimSqueaker]

(Yes, I hear everyone saying, "but what if they need to tow a camper? a truck makes more sense than two vehicles."  But that takes me right back to priorities:  if you are constantly short on money, you can't afford a camper that requires a big truck to tow it.)

You're describing a case in which the truck is part of a bigger Diderot unity. That's a very common thing. Spending on one thing begets spending on another thing. I know a debt-slave family with two breadwinners and minor children who have every toy known to man, and they "need" a truck to transport it all. They struggle financially, according to the wife, and have a great deal of debt. They're a great family, I love the kids, but I marvel at their landfill-magnet ways. Were they to suddenly switch to the small-used-car lifestyle, they'd have no way to enjoy some of their other luxuries that they're probably still paying for. I can see how that would put a person in a rut.

The solution, I think, is to work everything out early on when considering a major expenditure like a camper. It's more than how a person can make the payments: there's also maintenance, storage, repair, and schlepping it around.

Yep.  I've got friends with trucks and campers.  Generally, they use them, but often, they complain about money.

I talked to a coworker yesterday about how fun an RV would be, just drive and it's so much easier than tent camping.  I like road trips and camping, the family doesn't.  Many years ago, when kid #1 was 3 or 4, I was looking at teardrop trailers and pop up trailers.  But...there was nothing light enough that could be towed by our big car, which is a Matrix.  Plus, the teardrops, at 1000 lb for the smallest, only sleep 3 - then I got pregnant.  I realized that I'd need a bigger car to tow anything. 

But not just a SLIGHTLY bigger car, because even a small SUV like a RAV4 cannot tow anything either.  Plus we don't travel much.  So, it just didn't make sense.  We just camped less, if at all.

Welp, I am still driving that 2006 Matrix.  I took it tent camping in Moab last year (so. much. fun.)  Instead of replacing it, we spent a few k on repainting the 09 Civic with peeling paint (known defect of that year).  Even this morning, I was thinking that this car will make it past 20 years, easy.

I'm not anti-toy, but I think you have to be honest about how much use they will get, and how much you can afford.

I’ve done the same! I start daydreaming about how nice a camper would be for certain trips, but then I just figure out how many $200 nights in hotels it would equal. So, I go tent camping with my hatchback and don’t feel bad at all if I decide to spend a night in a hotel every once in a while on a road trip. I’m still many tens of thousands of dollars ahead even the cheapest camper.

I'm amazed at how much people are paying per night to "camp" in their RV/camper these days...it is getting insane!  Even "basic" RV parks are getting expensive. These RV parks are often overcrowded and are NOT the idyllic scene you see in the commercials and marketing materials.

As for getting your money's worth, people have good intentions, but reality usually sets in.  That is why you see a ton of used RVs and campers on the lots...at least around here.  We live in Minnesota and also see a similar thing going on with boats.

My view may be tainted a bit due to the fact that my father had an RV and poured WAY too much money into it, and didn't use it all that much.  He had to leave the thing sitting on a "storage" lot, which he paid rent for.   As for maintenance, there was a lot.  Engine broke down once or twice, and tire changes were over $2K!  All in all, RVs are not at all a way to "Save money" on travel, despite people convincing themselves they are.   

Personally, our strategy is to have an efficient car for road tripping and stay in hotels ( often paid for with points, etc... ).  And do tent camping here and there ( in parks, etc... ).  I'd wager our total out of pocket is quite a bit less than most RV/camper owners.

RV camping can be done frugally. One of my best friends, when I was growing up, had frugal parents who knew how to get the very best bang for the buck.

- They had a pop-up trailer, not a big vehicle. It was light enough to be towed behind a station wagon and small enough to be stored in the backyard next to their garage
- They poured a concrete pad in part of their backyard next to the garage, to store the pop-up when it wasn't in use, so they never paid storage fees
- They never stayed at commercial campsites, preferring to boondock or to use unimproved campsites on public land or parks with cheap or free nightly rates
- They would camp for a week or two every summer, hiking around and enjoying the area, having marshmallow roasts, and often bringing their children's friends along for a weekend once in a while. It was rare to find them in town on a long weekend, and the families of the kids they treated often reciprocated by taking their kids somewhere
- They would bring their own potable water, drinks, and cooler-based food
- They would bring their own entertainment, such as inflatable inner tubes for river floating
- All the cooking was done outdoors, so there was very little wear and tear on the camper itself although the fridge was used
- Showering and restroom activities were done at the campground when needed
- Activities were done outdoors unless it rained, in which case there were board games inside the pop-up

[Sandi_k]

... we can't replace it with anything that even vaguely meets our requirements: doesn't get WORSE mileage, has a pop top that we can stand up in, is comfy for sleeping.

@jeninco - we bought a lightly-used Ford E350 cargo van for our jetski towing and camping weekends (which we've been doing since 2003). We started with an older van, which didn't have an airbag for me. After 5 years of that, DH started agitating for a "van improvement project" to add a raised top so he could stand up in it.

I told him we weren't spending that kind of money on a nearly-10-year old van if I didn't get an airbag, so we sold that van (getting a very nice sale price, because we care for our stuff!), and then turned around and got a 2 year old E350 that had better towing capacity, and dual airbags.

We then did some very judicious improvements: a Fiberine top, insulation, window shades, and a ledge over the front seats for storage. The Fiberine top got two large sliding windows installed. We raided the junk yard for pop-out windows for the rear windows (no longer standard, due to concerns of CO2 poisoning when driving, and we only ever open them while camping).

We bought a camping fridge that is good for a 3-4 day camp when you add ice, and a backup camera that gives you a view while backing up to the jetski trailer in the rearview mirror.

All in, including the van, the labor for the Fiberine top and interior upgrades, was about $25k. And several years later, when we moved to a house on the water, that van has the towing capacity for a boat and trailer.

We found a lot of help on the DIY forum for Sportsmobiles; folks pay $150k for crazy van-built upgrades, but the DIY route can be very cost effective, with a little help from a conversion van or body shop if you want a tall top.

https://www.sportsmobileforum.com/forums/

[Siebrie]

When I was 10 my parents bought a trailer tent (similar to the Alpenkreuzer Parade sl) in bright orange and deep brown (it was the 80s; they bought it second hand) for around NLG1,500. It could be pulled by a Fiat Panda!
It slept 4 off the floor in the trailer part, which folded out into 2 cabin bottoms, with tent on top, and benches/table in the middle.
The double frontrooms held a table and 4 chairs and the kitchen, or, later in its life, 20 members of the youth club, very comfortably.
It was finally discarded when I was about 42, it was truly worth every penny!

[jinga nation]

I used to work FT from a client site. In the last year, I've reduced my attendance to once every 2-3 weeks. On a recent visit, found out 6-7 folks were retiring from federal civilian service. Visited their desks to pass them felicitations.
One of them, Joe, who's a bit Mustachian, we chatted a bit to catch up. Asked him how come "Goose" wasn't retiring, he'd been a civilian longer than most, and had gone overseas during COVID-19 pandemic to make extra money through hazard pay and to get a promotion, and had bragged often that he'd be the first to retire. Joe tells me the answer is in the parking lot.
On my way out, I pass a lifted toy truck with decals and stickers in Goose's liking, as he had the same stuff in his cube. I figured the base truck, if new, was about USD 50k, the upgrades maybe another 15k. On my next visit, Joe asked if I had seen it, and I ack'ed, saying that would be an easy 65k depreciating fast. (Joe and I like talking vehicle depreciation and computer parts prices vs performance, and Indian food.)
Joe slapped my back and howled, then said, "Kid, that fool Goose blew 100k on that stupid truck. Even worse, he didn't ask his wife, and he did it while they were discussing divorce."
I may be going to client office this Friday... gonna be spicy.

[Freedomin5]

I used to work FT from a client site. In the last year, I've reduced my attendance to once every 2-3 weeks. On a recent visit, found out 6-7 folks were retiring from federal civilian service. Visited their desks to pass them felicitations.
One of them, Joe, who's a bit Mustachian, we chatted a bit to catch up. Asked him how come "Goose" wasn't retiring, he'd been a civilian longer than most, and had gone overseas during COVID-19 pandemic to make extra money through hazard pay and to get a promotion, and had bragged often that he'd be the first to retire. Joe tells me the answer is in the parking lot.
On my way out, I pass a lifted toy truck with decals and stickers in Goose's liking, as he had the same stuff in his cube. I figured the base truck, if new, was about USD 50k, the upgrades maybe another 15k. On my next visit, Joe asked if I had seen it, and I ack'ed, saying that would be an easy 65k depreciating fast. (Joe and I like talking vehicle depreciation and computer parts prices vs performance, and Indian food.)
Joe slapped my back and howled, then said, "Kid, that fool Goose blew 100k on that stupid truck. Even worse, he didn't ask his wife, and he did it while they were discussing divorce."
I may be going to client office this Friday... gonna be spicy.

Don’t forget your popcorn.

[glacio09]

I used to work FT from a client site. In the last year, I've reduced my attendance to once every 2-3 weeks. On a recent visit, found out 6-7 folks were retiring from federal civilian service. Visited their desks to pass them felicitations.
One of them, Joe, who's a bit Mustachian, we chatted a bit to catch up. Asked him how come "Goose" wasn't retiring, he'd been a civilian longer than most, and had gone overseas during COVID-19 pandemic to make extra money through hazard pay and to get a promotion, and had bragged often that he'd be the first to retire. Joe tells me the answer is in the parking lot.
On my way out, I pass a lifted toy truck with decals and stickers in Goose's liking, as he had the same stuff in his cube. I figured the base truck, if new, was about USD 50k, the upgrades maybe another 15k. On my next visit, Joe asked if I had seen it, and I ack'ed, saying that would be an easy 65k depreciating fast. (Joe and I like talking vehicle depreciation and computer parts prices vs performance, and Indian food.)
Joe slapped my back and howled, then said, "Kid, that fool Goose blew 100k on that stupid truck. Even worse, he didn't ask his wife, and he did it while they were discussing divorce."
I may be going to client office this Friday... gonna be spicy.

I just about chocked on my coffee on the divorce comment. Wow. That's a special type of stupid.

[Frugal Lizard]

I used to work FT from a client site. In the last year, I've reduced my attendance to once every 2-3 weeks. On a recent visit, found out 6-7 folks were retiring from federal civilian service. Visited their desks to pass them felicitations.
One of them, Joe, who's a bit Mustachian, we chatted a bit to catch up. Asked him how come "Goose" wasn't retiring, he'd been a civilian longer than most, and had gone overseas during COVID-19 pandemic to make extra money through hazard pay and to get a promotion, and had bragged often that he'd be the first to retire. Joe tells me the answer is in the parking lot.
On my way out, I pass a lifted toy truck with decals and stickers in Goose's liking, as he had the same stuff in his cube. I figured the base truck, if new, was about USD 50k, the upgrades maybe another 15k. On my next visit, Joe asked if I had seen it, and I ack'ed, saying that would be an easy 65k depreciating fast. (Joe and I like talking vehicle depreciation and computer parts prices vs performance, and Indian food.)
Joe slapped my back and howled, then said, "Kid, that fool Goose blew 100k on that stupid truck. Even worse, he didn't ask his wife, and he did it while they were discussing divorce."
I may be going to client office this Friday... gonna be spicy.

I just about chocked on my coffee on the divorce comment. Wow. That's a special type of stupid.

exactly

[LennStar]

Why? Of course the wife get's the car.

[jinga nation]

I used to work FT from a client site. In the last year, I've reduced my attendance to once every 2-3 weeks. On a recent visit, found out 6-7 folks were retiring from federal civilian service. Visited their desks to pass them felicitations.
One of them, Joe, who's a bit Mustachian, we chatted a bit to catch up. Asked him how come "Goose" wasn't retiring, he'd been a civilian longer than most, and had gone overseas during COVID-19 pandemic to make extra money through hazard pay and to get a promotion, and had bragged often that he'd be the first to retire. Joe tells me the answer is in the parking lot.
On my way out, I pass a lifted toy truck with decals and stickers in Goose's liking, as he had the same stuff in his cube. I figured the base truck, if new, was about USD 50k, the upgrades maybe another 15k. On my next visit, Joe asked if I had seen it, and I ack'ed, saying that would be an easy 65k depreciating fast. (Joe and I like talking vehicle depreciation and computer parts prices vs performance, and Indian food.)
Joe slapped my back and howled, then said, "Kid, that fool Goose blew 100k on that stupid truck. Even worse, he didn't ask his wife, and he did it while they were discussing divorce."
I may be going to client office this Friday... gonna be spicy.

I just about chocked on my coffee on the divorce comment. Wow. That's a special type of stupid.

Goose's behavior isn't unique; far too common in these parts.
I used to have many contributions to the OHAW and AMWoSaC and related threads about stupidity and anti-Mustachian behavior I saw in my DoD/FedGov workspace. I blame WFH for significantly reducing what I can share with y'all. ;-p
But seriously, I don't miss the bullshit, political talk (always Anti-Dems, Pro-Trump), and other petty workplace crap.

Don’t forget your popcorn.

Taking a 3-pack to make and share with Joe.

[Laura33]

Joe slapped my back and howled, then said, "Kid, that fool Goose blew 100k on that stupid truck. Even worse, he didn't ask his wife, and he did it while they were discussing divorce."

I just about chocked on my coffee on the divorce comment. Wow. That's a special type of stupid.

So we're back to "is it correlation or causation?"  ;-)  I certainly couldn't handle being married to someone who is that impulsive and financially stupid. . . .

[Sibley]

I heard it at work, so its posted here, though it's not a coworker. I do not know the guy.

Guy is 50s, blue collar, not great with money in general. He pays his bills but makes stupid decisions. There was speculation if the guy had ADHD, it would fit with his life in general. Has had some health issues, luckily a vet so VA covers medical.

Apparently guy has some back issues and recently ended up in the hospital with bulging discs which resulted in him not being able to walk. Few days, whatever treatments, guy is able to function again though weak and sent home. Guy is openly concerned about making the mortgage payment and property taxes.

A week later, guy found an amazing deal on an electric piano. Not keyboard, piano. (Apparently they make electric upright pianos.) So guy bought it for $800.

I can not wrap my head around the combo of worrying about paying the mortgage + back issue which at minimum is going to reduce how much he can work + buying an electric piano. I hope the guy likes to play piano.

[techwiz]

I heard it at work, so its posted here, though it's not a coworker. I do not know the guy.

Guy is 50s, blue collar, not great with money in general. He pays his bills but makes stupid decisions. There was speculation if the guy had ADHD, it would fit with his life in general. Has had some health issues, luckily a vet so VA covers medical.

Apparently guy has some back issues and recently ended up in the hospital with bulging discs which resulted in him not being able to walk. Few days, whatever treatments, guy is able to function again though weak and sent home. Guy is openly concerned about making the mortgage payment and property taxes.

A week later, guy found an amazing deal on an electric piano. Not keyboard, piano. (Apparently they make electric upright pianos.) So guy bought it for $800.

I can not wrap my head around the combo of worrying about paying the mortgage + back issue which at minimum is going to reduce how much he can work + buying an electric piano. I hope the guy likes to play piano.

Hopefully this electric piano is lighter than a real one and he is not the one moving it!

[LennStar]

I heard it at work, so its posted here, though it's not a coworker. I do not know the guy.

Guy is 50s, blue collar, not great with money in general. He pays his bills but makes stupid decisions. There was speculation if the guy had ADHD, it would fit with his life in general. Has had some health issues, luckily a vet so VA covers medical.

Apparently guy has some back issues and recently ended up in the hospital with bulging discs which resulted in him not being able to walk. Few days, whatever treatments, guy is able to function again though weak and sent home. Guy is openly concerned about making the mortgage payment and property taxes.

A week later, guy found an amazing deal on an electric piano. Not keyboard, piano. (Apparently they make electric upright pianos.) So guy bought it for $800.

I can not wrap my head around the combo of worrying about paying the mortgage + back issue which at minimum is going to reduce how much he can work + buying an electric piano. I hope the guy likes to play piano.

Hopefully this electric piano is lighter than a real one and he is not the one moving it!

Or he plays in an orchestra. Because in an orchestra the piano is the lightest instrument, it's always carried by someone else.

[Sibley]

I heard it at work, so its posted here, though it's not a coworker. I do not know the guy.

Guy is 50s, blue collar, not great with money in general. He pays his bills but makes stupid decisions. There was speculation if the guy had ADHD, it would fit with his life in general. Has had some health issues, luckily a vet so VA covers medical.

Apparently guy has some back issues and recently ended up in the hospital with bulging discs which resulted in him not being able to walk. Few days, whatever treatments, guy is able to function again though weak and sent home. Guy is openly concerned about making the mortgage payment and property taxes.

A week later, guy found an amazing deal on an electric piano. Not keyboard, piano. (Apparently they make electric upright pianos.) So guy bought it for $800.

I can not wrap my head around the combo of worrying about paying the mortgage + back issue which at minimum is going to reduce how much he can work + buying an electric piano. I hope the guy likes to play piano.

Hopefully this electric piano is lighter than a real one and he is not the one moving it!

Or he plays in an orchestra. Because in an orchestra the piano is the lightest instrument, it's always carried by someone else.

Based on what I heard, no the guy does not play in an orchestra lol.

As for weight, google says it's heavy but significantly less heavy that a standard piano. As for who moved it, I do not know but based on previous tidbits I've heard (a coworker is a friend of guy so I hear stories), most likely the guy moved it himself.

[AMandM]

As for weight, google says it's heavy but significantly less heavy that a standard piano. As for who moved it, I do not know but based on previous tidbits I've heard (a coworker is a friend of guy so I hear stories), most likely the guy moved it himself.

Can he make his mortgage on disability payments? Maybe this is a long-range plan.

[Tass]

We have a nice upright electric piano that cost about that range new. It is too bulky for one person to carry comfortably alone, but it's light and easy for two people to carry. Perhaps, if it cost $800 used, that guy's is fancier and possibly heavier--or perhaps he just got fleeced.

Always lovely to have the weirdly specific expertise relevant to the conversation...

[jinga nation]

I heard it at work, so its posted here, though it's not a coworker. I do not know the guy.

Guy is 50s, blue collar, not great with money in general. He pays his bills but makes stupid decisions. There was speculation if the guy had ADHD, it would fit with his life in general. Has had some health issues, luckily a vet so VA covers medical.

Apparently guy has some back issues and recently ended up in the hospital with bulging discs which resulted in him not being able to walk. Few days, whatever treatments, guy is able to function again though weak and sent home. Guy is openly concerned about making the mortgage payment and property taxes.

A week later, guy found an amazing deal on an electric piano. Not keyboard, piano. (Apparently they make electric upright pianos.) So guy bought it for $800.

I can not wrap my head around the combo of worrying about paying the mortgage + back issue which at minimum is going to reduce how much he can work + buying an electric piano. I hope the guy likes to play piano.

Hopefully this electric piano is lighter than a real one and he is not the one moving it!

Or he plays in an orchestra. Because in an orchestra the piano is the lightest instrument, it's always carried by someone else.

Based on what I heard, no the guy does not play in an orchestra lol.

As for weight, google says it's heavy but significantly less heavy that a standard piano. As for who moved it, I do not know but based on previous tidbits I've heard (a coworker is a friend of guy so I hear stories), most likely the guy moved it himself.

Recently did a lot of research on upright pianos and electric pianos, so can chime a bit on the electric pianos topic.

Reason being my kids have reached a playing level where they need a full weighted keyboard. Due to space constraints and budget, a grand or baby grand ain't going to make it. Uprights are expensive, even used good ones. I found cheap ones on FB marketplace and Craigslist and NextDoor, but they are heavy, require a truck or large-ass SUV to transport, and require annual tuning. My sibling's kids have one, it is very good, but even current owners are having trouble finding piano tuners in our area. So is our music teacher, for her home's grand one. Tuners cost a hundred or two, at the least.

Went to the local Yamaha dealer, they are down to one tuner, and he only works on commercial clients, no more residential. Dealer suggested I look at the electric (digital) pianos, they are weighted to replicate their analog siblings. $650-750 (plus tax) seems about right for a Roland/Yamaha/Kawai/Casio/Korg with a single pedal, without stands unless there's a deal. For about a $900-1100 (plus tax), you can get the digital piano with a stand and 3 pedals. Example: https://kawaius.com/product/kdp75/ (much cheaper in local music stores or B&H or Adorama or Amazon).

I set up a Kawai, the piano board itself weighed 75 lbs (35 kg), but my wife had to help me align parts. (Made in Indonesia but Japanese company so the packing and assembly directions are excellent.) The setup isn't to be moved without releasing the tension under the pedals. Kids' piano teacher really likes the feel and sound of it; said it is as good as many upright pianos she's played on.

[LennStar]

Sounds like a business opportunity for the mustachian retiree. Work two or three half-days and make a lot of people happy.
How do you train to be tuner?

[techwiz]

Sounds like a business opportunity for the mustachian retiree. Work two or three half-days and make a lot of people happy.
How do you train to be tuner?

Buy this https://www.amazon.ca/Professional-Including-Tuning-Temperament-handles/dp/B09L4JHS8C/ref=asc_df_B09L4JHS8C?tag=bingshopdesk-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=80608037717693&hvnetw=o&hvqmt=e&hvbmt=be&hvdev=c&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=&hvtargid=pla-4584207593403398&psc=1 and watch some YouTube videos.

[Michael in ABQ]

Sounds like a business opportunity for the mustachian retiree. Work two or three half-days and make a lot of people happy.
How do you train to be tuner?

This reminded me of a podcast I heard years ago where a guy was talking about his side hustle as a piano tuner.

https://www.sidehustlenation.com/creative-side-hustles-3/

[NorthernIkigai]

Mmm… Dreaming of a (digital, because of the slightly less bulky size and the ability to play with headphones) piano here. Haven’t played for many decades but am looking forward to getting back to it. I had been looking at ones that are 1,000–1,500 € but just heard today that you can get good deals second hand because people get tired of them.

[jeninco]

Mmm… Dreaming of a (digital, because of the slightly less bulky size and the ability to play with headphones) piano here. Haven’t played for many decades but am looking forward to getting back to it. I had been looking at ones that are 1,000–1,500 € but just heard today that you can get good deals second hand because people get tired of them.

In general, used pianos are pretty cheap here (university town, and there's a music school). In our fairly small house, we have a console piano (ours is made by Samick) which is a bit smaller than a standard upright, and can be moved (carefully) by two people. It actually has wheels... We bought it from some older friends who played on it for decades: he played violin, she played piano... I've practiced on and off, and it's nicely weighted and I like the sound : it's kinda chime-y , so great for Christmas carols and baroque music -- lucky for me, that's a fair bit of what I play!

After this upcoming renovation, I'm going to commit to lessons!

[Sibley]

As for weight, google says it's heavy but significantly less heavy that a standard piano. As for who moved it, I do not know but based on previous tidbits I've heard (a coworker is a friend of guy so I hear stories), most likely the guy moved it himself.

Can he make his mortgage on disability payments? Maybe this is a long-range plan.

I really don't know. I do not know this individual, but based on the various tidbits I've heard over the last couple years, I would doubt there's an overarching plan. That sort of planning and forethought does not line up with the things I've heard.

I do know he's got a big dog who is apparently very sweet.

[techwiz]

Just overheard a story about a woman's financial world getting wrecked from a boyfriend who was a financial wreck to start with. They start living together boyfriend (who has a bankruptcy on his record) convinces her to sign for a high end jetboat $85K on a 20 year payment plan in 2022! Boyfriend gets a truck big enough to pull it.  Boyfriend ends relationship truck repo'd she is stuck with boat and payments for the next 18 years.  She is trying to sell for 65K no offers over 40K as people know she is bleeding payments and interest on a boat stuck in her driveway.  She plans on getting a friend to tow it to a lake this weekend and store it there in hopes it will sell better on the water running and get some use out of it.   

[TheGrimSqueaker]

Just overheard a story about a woman's financial world getting wrecked from a boyfriend who was a financial wreck to start with. They start living together boyfriend (who has a bankruptcy on his record) convinces her to sign for a high end jetboat $85K on a 20 year payment plan in 2022! Boyfriend gets a truck big enough to pull it.  Boyfriend ends relationship truck repo'd she is stuck with boat and payments for the next 18 years.  She is trying to sell for 65K no offers over 40K as people know she is bleeding payments and interest on a boat stuck in her driveway.  She plans on getting a friend to tow it to a lake this weekend and store it there in hopes it will sell better on the water running and get some use out of it.

That's a classic case of an STD, as in Sexually Transmitted Debt.

I understand the desire to bang somebody without being married to him or her, but I've never understood why people get financial with each other outside marriage. She ought to at least have used some protection in the form of a LLC or something.