Zero electric motorcycles

[scottish]

Does anyone here have a zero motorcycle?   Linky:   http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/ca/

They don't have the performance of a big bike, but they look pretty promising for commuting around the city.    Unfortunately there aren't any dealers within round trip range of Ottawa - it's either Peterborough or Montreal for me.

The engineering is particularly appealing.   

On the internal combustion side you need:
- the engine itself
- liguid cooling system (water pump, radiator, ...)
- clutch
- transmission

And on the electric side you need
- direct drive DC motor

The range is still a problem for travel outside the city though.

[big_slacker]

There is a guy here that commutes on one. Not in my building so I don't know him to ask any questions. I think it would be fine as a city commuter but like you say range matters. I'd also wonder how the acceleration and range would be hurt if you put hard cases on it and tried to use it for grocery runs and so on.

[PDXTabs]

I used to work for an electric motorcycle manufacturer. For the money, I'm not sure that you can beat a used Suzuki SV650 ABS for price and performance.

[Bruinguy]

I did not see the price on that link, but I bet that you could get a used leaf for less, maybe even a new one.  Seems like that would be more versatile. 

I like the engineering / concept too, though!

[Goldielocks]

DH wanted one.  Ended up getting a luna cycle fat cargo bike with mid drive kit instead.   Honestly, all dolled up, it doesn't look that much different from a zero cycle, yet has no license required, cheaper.  We will just pretend that he has speed restricted it to the legal limit, shall we?

Anyway, he rides in the bike lanes and it works even better.

I thought the zero motorcycles are especially hideous for commuting -- like trying to commute on a dirt bike.

[Syonyk]

Expensive, limited battery longevity (the older ones were really bad), and a solution looking for a problem.

If you're dealing with low speed city commuting over a moderate (10 mile) distance, a good electric bike will likely be faster (bike lanes, paths, pedestrian overpasses, etc).  Handwave faintly at the power and speed limits and nobody will care.  A 1500W bike doing 25mph?  *shrug*  Just don't be that guy pushing 10kW and doing 55mph in the bike lanes.

For longer commutes, a cheap, used gas motorcycle that gets 45-60mpg will be a lot cheaper to buy, fuel, and maintain than a Zero.

[PDXTabs]

For longer commutes, a cheap, used gas motorcycle that gets 45-60mpg will be a lot cheaper to buy, fuel, and maintain than a Zero.

Well, maintenance on an electric motorcycle will be much simpler than maintenance on an ICE. However, you can pay for a lot of maintenance and gas with the money you save buying a used ICE motorcycle. However, motorcycles rarely make any sense financially in the USA, so there is that.

[Shane]

Last month we spent some time in southern China and were amazed at how many electric scooters there were everywhere. There were also some electric bicycles and even some bigger, more heavy duty looking electric cargo carriers with decent sized trailers attached, but almost everybody seemed to be riding one of the fancy new electric scooters.

Because there were so many of them, we kept thinking the Chinese government must be subsidizing the electric scooters or somehow incentivizing people to purchase them. It looked like prices for new scooters started at around RMB2995 = US$434, which, apparently, is now affordable enough that just about everyone in the growing middle class in relatively prosperous southern China can afford one.

Currently, we are in Vietnam, where almost everyone rides a gas powered scooter or motorbike. There are some electric bicycles here, mostly ridden by school children, but, interestingly, we haven't seen even one electric scooter like the millions we saw just a few hundred miles away in southern China...

[BlueMR2]

For longer commutes, a cheap, used gas motorcycle that gets 45-60mpg will be a lot cheaper to buy, fuel, and maintain than a Zero.

I'd expect the Zero to be cheaper to maintain.  However, with how cheap used gas motorcycles are (Harleys are different, but metric bikes hold no resale value whatsoever upon leaving the dealership floor), you can buy TONS of maintenance with all the extra money you have vs. buying a Zero.

[big_slacker]

I used to work for an electric motorcycle manufacturer. For the money, I'm not sure that you can beat a used Suzuki SV650 ABS for price and performance.

:D

[scottish]

I'd be just as happy to bike to work but we don't have showers at my current company.    Ottawa isn't sufficiently bike friendly for me to use a bike to get groceries, go to the gym and so on.

So I moved on to the idea of getting a scooter so we'd have a third low cost vehicle in the household (4 drivers now).    A scooter can keep up with traffic in the city and it's cheap to own and operate.    But in Ontario, you need a motorcycle license to drive a scooter.   And if you get the license on a scooter then you get a restricted motorcycle license that's only good for scooters. ?!?    That, I thought, seems like a lot of effort for little benefit.

Anyway, the idea of getting a motorcycle eventually worked it's way into my mind.   Not particularly mustachian, especially since you can only ride 7 months of the year up here.    But it looks like alot of fun & it does improve our transportation situation during the warm months.    I'm signed up for the motorcycle course next weekend, and if I like that, I'll be looking to purchase a mid-size multi-use bike such as a Honda CB500X or NC750X.

I came across the zero motorcycle web site by targeted advertising from Google & I thought electric motorcycles?      They still have range problems, but the design simplicity is appealing.    It's pretty well known that DC direct drive motors have excellent torque and power characteristics for vehicular applications & there are lots of companies working on battery technology.

My impression of the electric bikes is that they have to potential to disrupt the gasoline bike business, but they aren't there yet.   They're still range limited, I expect there's risk around the battery technology (ranging from premature failure to catastrophic failure like Samsung smart phones) & the initial price is daunting.   Also the nearest dealer is about 150km away.

Thanks for all the opinions!

 

[scottish]

Harleys are different, but metric bikes hold no resale value whatsoever upon leaving the dealership floor

Hey, is this true?    (Not Harleys are different -- metric bike resale)   I've been looking for a used mid-size bike Japanese bike, upright riding position, etc. for a couple of months now & I've found almost nothing.

There are lots of small 250cc bikes.   And lots of Harleys and Ducatis.   Lots of sport bikes, too.    But bikes like the Kawasaki Versys, or the mid-size Honda 'adventure' bikes seem to be missing...

[big_slacker]

Harleys are different, but metric bikes hold no resale value whatsoever upon leaving the dealership floor

Hey, is this true?    (Not Harleys are different -- metric bike resale)   I've been looking for a used mid-size bike Japanese bike, upright riding position, etc. for a couple of months now & I've found almost nothing.

There are lots of small 250cc bikes.   And lots of Harleys and Ducatis.   Lots of sport bikes, too.    But bikes like the Kawasaki Versys, or the mid-size Honda 'adventure' bikes seem to be missing...

Absolutely true, metric bikes plummet in value as soon as you get a relatively small amount of miles on them.

Outside of the price, the reason you're seeing less of the upright standards and adventure bikes is because their just simply aren't as many of them on the road as sportbikes and cruisers. And the people who buy them generally hold on to them long term. So you might have trouble finding one used. Are you just looking on craigslist? You might try hitting up ADVrider, sport-touring.net and so on in the for sale section.

Also, to add another to your list the v-strom 650 might be worth looking for. Very upright, has a windscreen for freeway and is built for racks.

[HipGnosis]

Does anyone here have a zero motorcycle?   Linky:   http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/ca/

They don't have the performance of a big bike, but they look pretty promising for commuting around the city.    Unfortunately there aren't any dealers within round trip range of Ottawa - it's either Peterborough or Montreal for me.

The engineering is particularly appealing.   

On the internal combustion side you need:
- the engine itself
- liguid cooling system (water pump, radiator, ...)
- clutch
- transmission

And on the electric side you need
- direct drive DC motor

The range is still a problem for travel outside the city though.

I've been watching them for a while now, but don't have one, yet.  I've got 2 bikes; a cruiser and a sport bike.  Oh, and a collectors item bike (in storage).
The locking saddle bags on the cruiser are nice for commuting and errands, but it is a heavy bike that is 'out of it's element' in city traffic.     The sport bike is much better in traffic (and mpg because it's a smaller engine), but the 'soft' saddle bags I put on it are smaller, don't lock and aren't waterproof.
An electric motorcycle is just about perfect for commuting and errands.  Battery life, and range, are my concerns.  I wouldn't want one as my only bike, but it will be a while before I only have one bike.
As I understand it, putting 'cases' (ie weight) on em doesn't reduce range as much as going over 45mph.
Sure, a Leaf (or Bolt or Tesla) is more practical, but it/they need more registration, insurance AND a parking spot.
Electric vehicle tech is growing rapidly.  It's getting better and more affordable.  I'd like an electric motorcycle that can use public charging stations.

[scottish]

big_slacker, thanks for the advrider link.   That looks like a good forum.

[TomTX]

There's a guy at work with something like 4 motorcycles - if the weather is halfway decent, he rides one to work. Once he got a Zero, it became the primary driver.

[Spork]

I don't own a bike and have only ridden them a handful of times, so I might be way off here:  I would think an ICE bike with an engine that makes noise would be safer than an almost silent electric bike.

[bobechs]

I don't own a bike and have only ridden them a handful of times, so I might be way off here:  I would think an ICE bike with an engine that makes noise would be safer than an almost silent electric bike.

unless you hang one of these over the handlebars, let 'em know you are coming  and stayin' all-electic.

you could even blast high-volume Harley @6000 rpm sound recordings.  everyone knows that's the embodied sound of safety...   

[Syonyk]

I would think an ICE bike with an engine that makes noise would be safer than an almost silent electric bike.

It doesn't matter.

Noise has no real impact on safety.  There's a correlation, in that people who believe that noise matters tend to be horrid riders who crash a lot after bike nights at the bar, but no, loud pipes do not save lives.

A bright, solid color helmet and riding jacket, on the other hand, certainly do.  And I'm a fan of putting retroreflective chevrons on my helmets such that when I turn my head for a lane change, it's another high turn signal.

LED tail lights with flasher modules also help a lot.

Those Goldwing riders in day-glo yellow riding suits with day-glo yellow helmets?  That look like a lit up Minion?  They're statistically pretty darn safe.

[Spork]

I would think an ICE bike with an engine that makes noise would be safer than an almost silent electric bike.

It doesn't matter.

Noise has no real impact on safety.  There's a correlation, in that people who believe that noise matters tend to be horrid riders who crash a lot after bike nights at the bar, but no, loud pipes do not save lives.

A bright, solid color helmet and riding jacket, on the other hand, certainly do.  And I'm a fan of putting retroreflective chevrons on my helmets such that when I turn my head for a lane change, it's another high turn signal.

LED tail lights with flasher modules also help a lot.

Those Goldwing riders in day-glo yellow riding suits with day-glo yellow helmets?  That look like a lit up Minion?  They're statistically pretty darn safe.

LOL.  Well, then, my unresearched fears are unfounded.

[TomTX]

I would think an ICE bike with an engine that makes noise would be safer than an almost silent electric bike.

It doesn't matter.

Noise has no real impact on safety.  There's a correlation, in that people who believe that noise matters tend to be horrid riders who crash a lot after bike nights at the bar, but no, loud pipes do not save lives.

Well, after a week in a hotel with a room on the side where these "noise matters" guys liked to hang out when the bar closed - I can take some comfort in that.

[Syonyk]

Going back to Zero vs ICE bikes:

There are very few used Zero motorcycles on the market.  There are tons of used ICE bikes.

I'm sure a Zero is a nice bike to ride - but I'm also certain a high end BMW is a nice bike to ride.

For commuting purposes, you'll never make up the fuel cost with electric - even with the other maintenance involved.

Then again, I'm biased.  I make an awful lot of money dealing with abandoned battery packs.

[Goldielocks]

I don't own a bike and have only ridden them a handful of times, so I might be way off here:  I would think an ICE bike with an engine that makes noise would be safer than an almost silent electric bike.

Ah,  but DH added an air horn to his (running off the battery), so he can get the attention of the semi-drivers (it is in a 60km zone industrial area, with painted bike path, so not too fast, but the semi's waiting to turn into driveways forget to look for bikes).

Oh the threat of marital separation, he is NOT allowed to blow the damn thing in the house again -- ever.

[sisto]

Harleys are different, but metric bikes hold no resale value whatsoever upon leaving the dealership floor

Hey, is this true?    (Not Harleys are different -- metric bike resale)   I've been looking for a used mid-size bike Japanese bike, upright riding position, etc. for a couple of months now & I've found almost nothing.

There are lots of small 250cc bikes.   And lots of Harleys and Ducatis.   Lots of sport bikes, too.    But bikes like the Kawasaki Versys, or the mid-size Honda 'adventure' bikes seem to be missing...

Like another poster said, look for a used Suzuki SV650. Great bang for your buck, I've owned a ton of different motorcycles over the years and the SV650 was my favorite. You sit pretty upright on it.

[scottish]

I see some of those for sale.    They go on the shortlist.

[HipGnosis]

FYI; Sport-Touring.net has been superseded by Sport-Touring.org.  I'm a member of both.

[HipGnosis]

There's a guy at work with something like 4 motorcycles - if the weather is halfway decent, he rides one to work. Once he got a Zero, it became the primary driver.

That is, it became his primary commuting ride. 

[BDWW]

I just got rid of my GS500 a couple years ago, and have been checking in on the electric manufacturers periodically since then. I'm completely enamored with the idea of an electric motorcycle, but the cost is just far too high. You can buy a brand new commuter for less than 5K. And there's tons of used gas bikes out there.

I'm hoping at some point economies of scale kick in because even with the cost of batteries, they shouldn't be so much more expensive than gas bikes. Unfortunately the supply chain just isn't there yet.

[TomTX]

There's a guy at work with something like 4 motorcycles - if the weather is halfway decent, he rides one to work. Once he got a Zero, it became the primary driver.

That is, it became his primary commuting ride.

He says he also regularly rides it on weekends - it's fun, the fueling cost is basically nothing. It also gets ~20 miles of range recharged in an hour on a standard outlet, so plugging in over lunch is reasonably helpful. More like 60 miles of range in an hour if you get the Level 2 charger.

[scottish]

I'd say another 5 years or so and they'll be pretty competitive.    Assuming battery technology continues to develop.

[Goldielocks]

I'd say another 5 years or so and they'll be pretty competitive.    Assuming battery technology continues to develop.

  And their prices drop --- that is the absurdity of it, when you compare them to what an electric bike, for half the price, can do.

[PathToFI]

I have lusted after a Zero SR for a while.
This thread sent me to go take another peak at them online.  MSRP for the base 2017 Zero SR is $15,995.00 U.S.  I'd want to add the Power Tank (+$2,695) and the quick charger (+$600).
So the total sticker price for my dream bike is $19,290!!!!  You could go cheaper, this is probably the most expensive model they sell with the most impressive performance but that is why its my dream bike.

We have a local dealer who advertises prices a couple grand below retail at the end of the year for clearance.

I know people who have burned that much on Harley but obviously justifying spending that much money is impossible.  Especially on something that will depreciate like a lead ballon.

Used Zeros aren't readily available. I spot one every once in a while but even with a used asking price 50% of the new price it is still too much in continued depreciation risk for me.

A buddy told me just last week to just pick a color and go buy one.    I replied that such an irresponsible purchase would have to wait until I had at least 2.5 million invested...maybe 3.     

I like living vicariously through others. So if any of you guys get one, post pictures and tell us all about it. (Especially if you get a used one for like 25% of the original price and are getting the advertised 240MPGe at highway speeds)

[TomTX]

I have lusted after a Zero SR for a while.
This thread sent me to go take another peak at them online.  MSRP for the base 2017 Zero SR is $15,995.00 U.S.  I'd want to add the Power Tank (+$2,695) and the quick charger (+$600).
So the total sticker price for my dream bike is $19,290!!!!  You could go cheaper, this is probably the most expensive model they sell with the most impressive performance but that is why its my dream bike.

We have a local dealer who advertises prices a couple grand below retail at the end of the year for clearance.

I know people who have burned that much on Harley but obviously justifying spending that much money is impossible.  Especially on something that will depreciate like a lead ballon.

Used Zeros aren't readily available. I spot one every once in a while but even with a used asking price 50% of the new price it is still too much in continued depreciation risk for me.

A buddy told me just last week to just pick a color and go buy one.    I replied that such an irresponsible purchase would have to wait until I had at least 2.5 million invested...maybe 3.     

I like living vicariously through others. So if any of you guys get one, post pictures and tell us all about it. (Especially if you get a used one for like 25% of the original price and are getting the advertised 240MPGe at highway speeds)

You seem conflicted with regard to depreciation :D

[GetItRight]

Firstly, I've owned many motorcycles and dirt bikes and I've never owned anything with a liquid cooling system. Clutch or transmission have never caused me any problems or required replacement or rebuild. Engine "problems" have never been more than regular maintenance or carb rebuild on bikes that have sat a long time. Motorcycles are simple and reliable if you choose a simple and reliable air cooled bike.

You're leaving out the belt and sprockets on the electric bike. The belt will need periodic replacement or adjustment, but that's just normal maintenance. Also plan on battery replacement every 5-7 years and decrease in range toward the end of that time.

$16k is a LOT of money for a bland bike with little resale value, as compared to $1000-$1500 for a solid reliable used bike or up to a few grand for a virtually new fancy (and more expensive/problematic to maintain) new bike. You won't be saving any money with this, it's a toy or a novelty. 200 mile range would be fine for my commute but barely adequate for my recreational riding. Finding a place to plug in for several hours to carry on wouldn't cut it for me. If it charged in under 5 mins for 200 miles, that would be adequate. No mention of performance on the site, which concerns me a bit but I'd guess it's at least similar to a ~500cc bike and adequate if not thrilling. I don't see the advantage of this over any any typical 30-50 year old Japanese air cooled bike which you can pick up cheap and are very simple, reliable, and cheap to own and operate. It'll never reach ROI over a simple older bike, even if you but the old bike totally restored to better than new.

[scottish]

Correct me where I'm wrong here - I don't know alot about motorcycles and have no experience with them.   Yet.  :-)

First question, according to this site:  http://www.zeroto60times.com/vehicle-make/zero-0-60-mph-times/ the electric motorcycles seem to have performance pretty comparable to current gasoline motorcycles.     I see 0 to 60 times  as low as 3.3 seconds - which isn't as fast as the fastest racing bikes, but it's pretty respectable.

Second question - is it accurate to say that older air cooled bikes are both less fuel efficient and have a lower power to weight ratio than a more modern bike?   It seems they would go hand in hand - if they're less efficient, they produce more waste heat & if they're air cooled, they can't dump as much heat as a liquid cooled engine, so they have to be less powerful.

Third question - in terms of a bike, I'm looking for something that I won't need to work on to keep running.   Also a big fan of ABS and EFI here.   My experience with cars is that older vehicles require more maintenance and repairs than newer vehicles - is this not true for motorcycles as well?

I'm not trying to go the minimum cost route here.   Money isn't a huge constraint, although I'm not going to spend 16K on a bike regardless of whether it's electric or gasoline powered.  Mostly, I just want to learn to become a good rider.   So... fourth question.  For a cost effective commute in the city, doesn't a scooter provide a better option than a motorcycle?   Automatic transmission, cargo under the seat, comfortable seating position, etc.?

I started thinking about a scooter and various factors led me to the motorcycle option.   (I've got the motorcycle course this weekend.   First new thing I've tried in quite a while, so I'm pretty excited!)

[GetItRight]

First question, according to this site:  http://www.zeroto60times.com/vehicle-make/zero-0-60-mph-times/ the electric motorcycles seem to have performance pretty comparable to current gasoline motorcycles.     I see 0 to 60 times  as low as 3.3 seconds - which isn't as fast as the fastest racing bikes, but it's pretty respectable.

Depend on your riding style, but unless you're drag racing 0-60 isn't particularly relevant. Top speed is a concern on smaller bikes and I think needs to be explicitly disclosed on any electric bike. They should also give the HP rating of the motor so you can have some idea of relative performance. My concern is the bike may not perform well accelerating out of turns as in spirited riding through twisty roads. For electric I'd also be concerns about range during spirited riding. Putzing along at 65 MPH on the highway or low speed around town riding it may get 200 miles out of a charge, but how about a spirited ride down some twisty two lane blacktop that entails constantly heavy braking and hard acceleration? Will it perform acceptably and will the battery last acceptably long?

Second question - is it accurate to say that older air cooled bikes are both less fuel efficient and have a lower power to weight ratio than a more modern bike?   It seems they would go hand in hand - if they're less efficient, they produce more waste heat & if they're air cooled, they can't dump as much heat as a liquid cooled engine, so they have to be less powerful.

Most new bikes of similar displacement are going to have more HP and a better power to weight ratio than a 70s or 80s bike. That comes from engine design (head, chamber, ports, etc.) and also to the ability to make that power with no cooling concerns. It's very rare that you'd have an issue with an air cooled bike overheating in traffic. Head gaskets don't "blow" like in a water cooled engine, it is very rare to have a breach of the fire ring. A 500cc-900cc air cooled bike is plenty of power for a new rider and anything bigger than a 550 is arguably too much bike for a first time rider. If you modify the engine with a big bore kit and so forth then heat can become an issue when stuck in traffic but generally unless you live in the desert there are no concerns with temperature in traffic. MPG will generally be in the 40-60 range depending on the bike and how you ride. New water cooled bike are marginally more efficient but you'll never hit ROI on fuel savings at 50 MPG vs 60 MPG, picking hypothetical numbers. Do the math, at current fuel prices anything over 30 MPG or so is essentially irrelevant unless you're racking up some serious miles.

Third question - in terms of a bike, I'm looking for something that I won't need to work on to keep running.   Also a big fan of ABS and EFI here.   My experience with cars is that older vehicles require more maintenance and repairs than newer vehicles - is this not true for motorcycles as well?

If you don't want to work on anything don't get a bike. Maintenance is required and if you don't do it you can get killed. An electric bike needs the same maintenance than a gas bike needs. Wheel bearings, tires, triple tree bearings, shocks, forks, fork oil, chain/sprockets/belt/shaft, etc... Oil changes, tune ups, and carbs (fuel treatment and drain for storage, cleaning peridically) are trivial effort compared to the things that will kill you. Seriously, if you don't want to lift a finger with basic maintenance, don't get any bike or you'll either be miserable or spending a fortune to outsource normal maintenance.

I'm not trying to go the minimum cost route here.   Money isn't a huge constraint, although I'm not going to spend 16K on a bike regardless of whether it's electric or gasoline powered.  Mostly, I just want to learn to become a good rider.   So... fourth question.  For a cost effective commute in the city, doesn't a scooter provide a better option than a motorcycle?   Automatic transmission, cargo under the seat, comfortable seating position, etc.?

I started thinking about a scooter and various factors led me to the motorcycle option.   (I've got the motorcycle course this weekend.   First new thing I've tried in quite a while, so I'm pretty excited!)

A scooter may or may not be better. I dislike scooters, but they can be very practical if you need to carry relatively large amounts of stuff with you. They make some pretty quick and fun 650cc scooters these days too. If you don't need the utility of a scooter and can fit your typical "stuff" in a backpack, saddle bags, or a rack then get a bike. I have no problem commuting on my bike as I use a backpack for my work stuff. I'll run errands on the bike if it's for small things that will fit in a backpack, but have no storage on my bike. I do have cheap textile saddle bags that I can slap across the underside of the seat for those rare occasions I need more storage. A scooter won't be nearly as fun as a bike, but depending on your intended use could be practical for a commute in an urban area. Evaluate your needs and intended use.

Whatever you do I suggest getting something cheap with decent resale for your first bike. You may decide you want something totally different fairly quickly and it's very plausible you'll drop it at some point.

[Syonyk]

First question, according to this site:  http://www.zeroto60times.com/vehicle-make/zero-0-60-mph-times/ the electric motorcycles seem to have performance pretty comparable to current gasoline motorcycles.     I see 0 to 60 times  as low as 3.3 seconds - which isn't as fast as the fastest racing bikes, but it's pretty respectable.

And 60 is where the run out of steam, whereas a modern gas bike (or even an older one) is just getting going at 60.

I've got a sportbike (not the cheapest form of transportation on the planet).  It winds out 1st gear at about 62mph.  It pulls, savagely, somewhere past 150mph.  You can barely get the power to the ground from 0-60 on a modern bike - they're wheelie limited.

Second question - is it accurate to say that older air cooled bikes are both less fuel efficient and have a lower power to weight ratio than a more modern bike?   It seems they would go hand in hand - if they're less efficient, they produce more waste heat & if they're air cooled, they can't dump as much heat as a liquid cooled engine, so they have to be less powerful.

Generally, yes, though a low displacement air cooled bike will generally be more efficient than a larger water cooled engine for the same rides.

Third question - in terms of a bike, I'm looking for something that I won't need to work on to keep running.   Also a big fan of ABS and EFI here.   My experience with cars is that older vehicles require more maintenance and repairs than newer vehicles - is this not true for motorcycles as well?

M'kay.  There are two ways to accomplish this.  The easiest is to not ride a motorcycle.  The second is to pay your local motorcycle shop a lot of money, repeatedly, to do stuff that you should be doing yourself.

I'm not trying to go the minimum cost route here.   Money isn't a huge constraint, although I'm not going to spend 16K on a bike regardless of whether it's electric or gasoline powered.  Mostly, I just want to learn to become a good rider.

Buy a lightly used Ninja 300 with traction control and antilocks.  Ride that a bunch.  Then decide what you want to do in a few years.

So... fourth question.  For a cost effective commute in the city, doesn't a scooter provide a better option than a motorcycle?   Automatic transmission, cargo under the seat, comfortable seating position, etc.?

Well, if you are the type of person who wants to ride a scooter, I guess...

I don't like scooters.  You have basically no control over them compared to a motorcycle (I suppose they're similar to cruisers, which I'm not a fan of).  With a good (not-cruiser), you're able to grip the motorcycle with your legs and keep your upper body loose for control.  You can't do that on a scooter.

[scottish]

Third question - in terms of a bike, I'm looking for something that I won't need to work on to keep running.   Also a big fan of ABS and EFI here.   My experience with cars is that older vehicles require more maintenance and repairs than newer vehicles - is this not true for motorcycles as well?

M'kay.  There are two ways to accomplish this.  The easiest is to not ride a motorcycle.  The second is to pay your local motorcycle shop a lot of money, repeatedly, to do stuff that you should be doing yourself.

Ok, this in particular is really useful info.   You guys probably just saved me a ton of money. 

I pay a garage to do maintenance on our cars because it's a chore best case, and a major PITA if I don't have the right setup for something.  Which is often and usually determined in the middle of a job.    At least with  a bike you don't have to crawl under it to get at stuff...  (I hope)    I'll reconsider my thoughts about maintenance.   

[HipGnosis]

Point of reference;  I'm the son and grandson of professional mechanics. 
I've been working on motors and vehicles for about 50 yrs.  I've been riding for 45+ yrs.

First question, according to this site:  http://www.zeroto60times.com/vehicle-make/zero-0-60-mph-times/ the electric motorcycles seem to have performance pretty comparable to current gasoline motorcycles.     I see 0 to 60 times  as low as 3.3 seconds - which isn't as fast as the fastest racing bikes, but it's pretty respectable.

Electric vehicles can make full power at any RPM.  Gas engines make peak HP and torque at two different RPMs.  0-60 is mostly power to weight ratio.  3.3 seconds is very respectable.

Second question - is it accurate to say that older air cooled bikes are both less fuel efficient and have a lower power to weight ratio than a more modern bike?

There are a few new air cooled engines - mostly cruisers, which aren't made for max performance or mpgs.   The bigger factor is electronic ignition and fuel injection.  It compensates for a wide variety of variables making it WAY more efficient - and actually lower maintenance.

   
Third question - in terms of a bike, I'm looking for something that I won't need to work on to keep running.   Also a big fan of ABS and EFI here.   My experience with cars is that older vehicles require more maintenance and repairs than newer vehicles - is this not true for motorcycles as well?

I will never go back to carburetors.  EFI includes electronic ignition.
Maintenance on my bikes (an 07 and 09); oil, spark plugs, air filter.  Lube, adjust chain (easy), replace chain & sprockets about 20K miles (fairly easy but needs special socket for front sprocket), adj. belt (once a yr).  Tires - I buy tires online, remove the wheel and take them to a friend or dealer.   Fuel stabilizer and charge batts in winter - I'm in Wisc.
All bikes should have the valve clearances checked once (unless it has a LOT of miles).  I've done it on three bikes, had dealer do one.

I'm not trying to go the minimum cost route here.   Money isn't a huge constraint, although I'm not going to spend 16K on a bike regardless of whether it's electric or gasoline powered.  Mostly, I just want to learn to become a good rider.   So... fourth question.  For a cost effective commute in the city, doesn't a scooter provide a better option than a motorcycle?   Automatic transmission, cargo under the seat, comfortable seating position, etc.?

I started thinking about a scooter and various factors led me to the motorcycle option.   (I've got the motorcycle course this weekend.   First new thing I've tried in quite a while, so I'm pretty excited!)

'Effective' and 'comfort' are relative and personal opinion elements.
There are a few motorcycle-scooter hybrids, sometimes called super-scooters.  Burgman is probably the most common, made by Suzuki, up to 650cc.  Honda makes a couple - some are more MCish and some are more scooterish.
Both of my bikes have saddle bags - factory on one, aftermarket on other.  I also have tank bags and tail bags, but they're not always on the bike.
I always recommend a used bike for your first, assume you will drop it - less body work is better.  Smaller is generally better, unless you want to go on the highways.

Also; I don't mind riding in the rain, I have the gear for it.  But, I do NOT commute in the rain if I know about it, because - car drivers do not expect bikes on the road then so they don't even see you.  I'd rather drive thru miles of construction.

[k-vette]

I've ridden a zero and almost bought it.  Used and $4,500.  I'm currently driving a leased electric car that's new and after all the California incentives, is free.  Still zippy and can take the whole family.  I also have ebikes to ride to work.

Unfortunately there aren't many deals like that around on a zero.  You could buy a brand new cb300 or cb500 Honda for the same price, and they're still very fuel efficient. 

If you want to go electric - you'll love it.  It's incredibly smooth, quiet and plenty fast.  If you're looking to save money, there are cheaper modes of transportation. 

I'm still waiting for "the" electric motorcycle.  Zev is another brand available (more common internationally, but they are here in the USA)  Evoke is a new Chinese motorcycle coming soon.  They will all come down in price over the next few years.  I'll be buying one some day most likely.  I currently have a 1985 Honda nighthawk 700s.  (Which I've even considered converting to electric.)

In short- I ALMOST pulled the trigger on a great used deal.  I certainly wouldn't pay new prices for one.

[HipGnosis]

I know someone that has a cheap, chinese motorcycle (gas).  Because of knowing his general experiences, I won't buy a chinese motorcyle, gas or electric, for many years.
But I do hope they come to the US market, as the competition they would give would surely bring the prices of all electric motorcycles down - eventually.

[dhlogic]

Motorcycles are rarely practical. It might be the cheapest option if it's your sole vehicle, you get an older small displacement one, and do all the maintenance yourself. Most people almost always have them in addition to other vehicles.

So for most people a motorcycle of *any* price is a luxury item and once you start eclipsing $15,000 prices, you're definitely in enthusiast territory. The Zero SR describes itself as an electric antidote to gas powered superbikes, although the SR is clearly more of a "standard" style than superbike in both ergonomics and performance.

For the price of the top Zero SR, one could get a Kawasaki ZX-10R or Ducati Panigalle 1299. Both of those would offer an experience far exceeding the Zero SR in every metric.

I don't think the Zero SR solves any existing problem and just exists for novelty sake. It's not comparable to superbike performance, but costs the same.

If I was looking for the ultimate low cost of ownership commuter, I'd probably go with a 1988-2007 Ninja 250. Buy one for $1000, get 60+ mpg, low insurance, extremely simple maintenance, same design for nearly 20 years, and great parts availability.

Improved battery technology will probably change this eventually and I do look forward to that, but right now the batteries are too expensive, heavy, and don't have enough power.

[HipGnosis]

Improved battery technology will probably change this eventually and I do look forward to that, but right now the batteries are too expensive, heavy, and don't have enough power.

And they take to long to charge.

[GetItRight]

Motorcycles are rarely practical. It might be the cheapest option if it's your sole vehicle, you get an older small displacement one, and do all the maintenance yourself. Most people almost always have them in addition to other vehicles.

It's pretty easy to hit ROI in fuel savings as a second vehicle is you have a 6+ month riding season and DIY maintenance.

[dhlogic]

Well it certainly is possible, but you have to make the right choices.

Lets assume the motorcycle maintenance cost is absolutely nothing and look at just fuel savings.

The car gets 35 mpg and motorcycle that gets 60 mpg. Fuel costs $4/gal and the person drives/rides year round for a total of 10,000 miles a year.

Car uses 258.7 gal the motorcycle 166.7, 119 gal saved for a total of $476.20

Now take out $50 registration and $120 insurance for the year and you are just over $300.

Factor in that you need a helmet, jacket, gloves, boots, wet weather gear, etc. Savings won't be positive for the first year and probably not the second. This calculation doesnt take into account any maintenance or the purchase price of the motorcycle itself. If you bought a $1000 motorcycle in this example, it would take 3 years of riding just to break even on bike alone.

Now it certainly can be done, it just needs to be thought through.

[big_slacker]

Motorcycles are rarely practical. It might be the cheapest option if it's your sole vehicle, you get an older small displacement one, and do all the maintenance yourself. Most people almost always have them in addition to other vehicles.

So for most people a motorcycle of *any* price is a luxury item and once you start eclipsing $15,000 prices, you're definitely in enthusiast territory. The Zero SR describes itself as an electric antidote to gas powered superbikes, although the SR is clearly more of a "standard" style than superbike in both ergonomics and performance.

Definitely not always the most practical. When I lived in vegas I had a sportbike that was my primary vehicle. Work, shopping, gym, etc. 10k miles a year. My wife did have a car but I rarely used it unless for big shopping trips or going mountain biking. Not always practical is true. You gotta get geared up to go anyplace (or you should if you value your hide), storage is limited compared to a car obviously. You gotta bring your A game every time you go out because people don't see you. Still, sportbikes are magic, they telepathically go where you will them to or so it felt to me. I even enjoyed my commute to work every day.

[Syonyk]

Seriously. They're like riding a scalpel.

I don't claim my motorcycles are cheap to run. Only that they're worth it.

And I ride literally year round. In snow and ice. A sidecar and 2WD solves most of winter. :)

[Just Joe]

I don't like scooters.  You have basically no control over them compared to a motorcycle (I suppose they're similar to cruisers, which I'm not a fan of).  With a good (not-cruiser), you're able to grip the motorcycle with your legs and keep your upper body loose for control.  You can't do that on a scooter.

Depends on how far back on the seat you sit on that scooter.

[scottish]

I was looking at a motorcycle as a luxury item & a third vehicle.    All 4 of us now have driver's licenses (even the 18 yo boy) and we have 2 vehicles.

I think dhlogic left out insurance costs.   Mandatory in Canada, this would be an extra $900 for me alone.   so this means operating costs are around $1500/year.

No question we can afford it.   When I stop working I may have to made some decisions though.

[GetItRight]

Well it certainly is possible, but you have to make the right choices.

Lets assume the motorcycle maintenance cost is absolutely nothing and look at just fuel savings.

The car gets 35 mpg and motorcycle that gets 60 mpg. Fuel costs $4/gal and the person drives/rides year round for a total of 10,000 miles a year.

Car uses 258.7 gal the motorcycle 166.7, 119 gal saved for a total of $476.20

Now take out $50 registration and $120 insurance for the year and you are just over $300.

Factor in that you need a helmet, jacket, gloves, boots, wet weather gear, etc. Savings won't be positive for the first year and probably not the second. This calculation doesnt take into account any maintenance or the purchase price of the motorcycle itself. If you bought a $1000 motorcycle in this example, it would take 3 years of riding just to break even on bike alone.

Now it certainly can be done, it just needs to be thought through.

I was figuring more like 15 MPG and 50 MPG, $100/yr insurance, negligible maintenance costs (bikes are cheap and easy), $2.50/gal gas, $1500-$2500 bike. Granted the more expensive gas is the sooner to reach ROI. Gas right now is about the same prices it has been since the 60s and I think fairly indicative of future price. If you really want cheap you can get a bike for a few hundred bucks if you're mechanically inclined. I got my first bike for $100 and put virtually nothing into it for tens of thousands of miles of use. I also only wore a cheap <$100 helmet and no other proper gear. I'm still alive, but I wouldn't go that cheap again.

Personally I have a truck and a bike. I need the truck for truck things, and I drive it in the winter months or when the weather is crappy. I use the bike as my primary vehicle through the nicer months. Having a second car that gets 35 MPG would be an expensive luxury, primarily for insurance costs. No greater risk having an econobox too but well over $1000/yr more insurance cost for no increase in total miles traveled or destination. Doesn't make sense if the goal is to save money.

Gear can be had cheap enough. $250 will get you a new helmet, gloves, used jacket, and maybe used boots too. That's bare minimum for me. The sky is the limit with gear, but if you're trying to save money or just poor you make reasonable decisions weighing risk and protection vs cost just like anything else in life.