You can lead a horse to water but ....

[Southern Stashian]

I'm in a dilema. We have been spreading the Mustachien good word for a while now and have made some life changing financial decisions over the past couple of years. We are healthier than ever, blood pressure and cholesterol are perfect and we have no real stress anymore except for what else could we trim to get to FI even faster and what to do with all of our excess funds - which if you ask me is a great place to be in.

I have people around me that I see sinking even further into the consumerism black hole, even after bankruptcies but in the same breath will doubt our financial resurrection. We have become "Mustachien Snobs" to some extent, but I have no intentions of changing from our new found freedom.

My question is how do you keep from becoming "The annoying guy who never shuts up about financial freedom, who is always trying to make suggestions to save money." I'm starting to feel like the overweight spouse who now is on a diet so EVERYONE should be on a diet, only in our case its a financial diet.

I was at a company sponsored lunch the other day with my direct supervisor, who is in his late 50's as is his wife and both the nicest people you will ever meet. Both have many health issues, like to eat out 6 days a week, spend like there is no tomorrow and have no plans on getting to retirement. Now I am 39, wife is 37 and we have plans for FI in 3 years and depending on some factors, plan to "retire" 1-3 years after FI. He believes that I am day dreaming, since we are 20 years younger with three kids and this and that. It's very frustrating seeing such nice people struggle, but you can lead a horse to water but ......

In addition, we are friends with a couple whose wife has come down with some pretty serious cancer at a very young age (late 20's). In a good faith effort to help them out, we offered to pay their utilities for a year to give them some financial relief. Their response was "You have three kids and this and that, so thank you but we couldn't put that financial obligation on you." I truly believe that us becoming Mustachiens is to help our friends out, but people are so blind that they believe everyone else is in the same boat with money.

We have made suggestions to those around us on how to save money, mostly by example. We throw out suggestions such as the MMM $10 IPhone plan - then get the typical response - "Is it unlimited?" - Ummm, of course not for $10! - "Well, then its not for us. For $10 the service must suck." Can people really be that ignorant of their finances or have we become Mustachien snobs?

I believe we are seeing things in a different light now, wanting less, enjoying our lives more and it's obvious to those around us by their comments of "You seem happier now..." or "You didn't pick up the new IPhone 5, thats not like you!" but they still go about their lives as if their in the Matrix and we have been set free. It's very, very frustrating. We feel like aliens that just fell to earth and landed in the middle of New York City!

[Self-employed-swami]

Like anything else in life, unwanted advice isn't usually appreciated. 

I'd keep your advice to yourself until someone asks for it.

JMHO.

[okits]

I'd stick with the socially-accepted lines for the most part. "We're saving for a house/new car/big trip/retirement" fits almost any circumstance. "Spouse is worried about job security" also works.

Money has a lot of emotional triggers embedded in the behaviors and motivations around it. Telling anyone to do something different than what they're already doing with money will be received as criticism and judgment. 

If you want to talk about MMM/FI with people you don't know are Mustachian, you could float out an innocuous, soft-core idea and see if they are receptive. "You know, if I splurged a little less and saved a little more maybe I could slow it down a bit with all this overtime." If they're not receptive you know to move onto other subjects.

You can only lead a horse to water, you can't make it drink. Some of your friends aren't thirsty yet, some may never be. Seeing your spendy friends occasionally is a good thing. I'm sure they're still nice people, and you can be King For a Day and play with their new iPhone 5 before going back to your Mustachian alternative.  Their attitudes towards spending will make you proud of how far you've come, and maybe one of these days they'll be ready to listen.

I would NOT talk about FI at work and especially not with your boss.  Call me cynical, but they want your labour at their disposal indefinitely. Letting on that you're getting ready to blow that taco stand isn't going to earn you any brownie points at the company and could be career-limiting.  There's such a thing as being too honest, especially at work.

Come here and talk about your badassity. :) Hopefully you can meet some local Mustachians from the forums to have like-minded people to hang out with.

[Rangifer]

I've got a couple of thoughts (that I don't say out loud!) on this which depend on my current mood and how well I know the person.

If in a bad mood I go with the quote, "there can't be winners without losers," which is basically my way of saying "fuck 'em"

But usually I just realize that like most difficult things in life, they have to want it and be willing to work for it. You can suggest a million things to them but in the end they have to decide that they want to put in the hard work. Some people lack ambition in life and just want to follow a predefined or easy path and you have got to accept that.


As for your friend with the sick wife, I usually take it that if someone refuses help three times in a row then they really don't want help. Example:

You: I'd love to help you with your bills.
Them: No, we couldn't ask you to do that
You: Really, its the least we could do.
Them: No, no, you've got enough bills of your own
You: We can spare some money for a friend.
Them: No need, we'll be alright.

[DocCyane]

The first rule of Fight Club is don't talk about Fight Club.

I am equally excited to discuss personal finance and plans to better my life, but it's best to stay quiet. Never tell anyone at work that you have a stash. It will get to the boss somehow and decisions will be made based on your not needing more money.

Never tell family. Even though my brother hasn't asked me for money, he's angry that my father and I are good with money and won't share with him.

And personally, I never offer financial assistance. Money changes the dynamic of all relationships and rarely for the better. If you give them some, they will either come sniffing for more or they'll be angry with you for making them feel needy and poor.

I always act like I'm just scraping by. That's all anyone needs to know.

[happy]

I'm pretty excited by Mustachianism, but have pretty well kept it to my self also and within this forum. I've raised it with my teens. I talked about some stuff with a work colleague who is also an INTJ, and she gets it a bit.  In 2 weeks I'm going to be semi-retired, but I haven't used that term anywhere but here and I won't be calling it that at work. I just mutter about cutting my hours down at work. I'm concerned that talking about semi-retirement may limit my options prematurely and I really don't need that.

Western capitalist society is deeply immersed in consumerism, and the Muggles are really blinded by this. It takes an inner transformation to really appreciate it, so I think , yes you can't make the horse drink. People are really not going to accept a $10 Iphone plan, unless they are enlightened. OP, may be you could try mixing it up a bit and ask questions like "Does anyone have any tips on saving money on .....?" This might at least identify people who might be interested in having a conversation. However I suspect if you are wanting to talk to people you will need to find those who are already enlightened, and the possibility of converting Muggles will be slight.

I'm reminded of an old family friend who was definitely badass, and had a reputation of being a  bit of a tightwad. When he died he left several million and several houses to his surprised and grateful children. He was part of a middle class social group, had a good time, but always went the cheapest option and  never quite fitted in due to his thrifty ways. I guess ole Bruce was on MMM Koolaid all those decades, most people just didn't get it ( me included).

[Milkman666]

The first rule of Fight Club is don't talk about Fight Club.

I am equally excited to discuss personal finance and plans to better my life, but it's best to stay quiet. Never tell anyone at work that you have a stash. It will get to the boss somehow and decisions will be made based on your not needing more money.

Never tell family. Even though my brother hasn't asked me for money, he's angry that my father and I are good with money and won't share with him.

And personally, I never offer financial assistance. Money changes the dynamic of all relationships and rarely for the better. If you give them some, they will either come sniffing for more or they'll be angry with you for making them feel needy and poor.

I always act like I'm just scraping by. That's all anyone needs to know.

I respectfully disagree with most of this post.

I will discuss money management with anyone who wants to. My boss knows about my situation in a general way. It hasn't changed a thing, in fact it may have helped because it lets her know that I do this work because I want to, not because I have to.

My family know my position also. My sister and mother are terrible with money. Whenever they bring up the topic, I basically offer them all of the knowledge, opinion, and references I have to help them get their shit in order.

I never offer money directly to people either. I agree with this part of the post; the dynamic of your relationship changes immediately and permanently.

I don't act like I'm scraping by, but most people assume I am because I have no cable, rarely buy new clothes, don't have an iPhone, iPad or personal mobile phone, and because of all the other Mustachian things I do. I never make statements that indicate that I'm scraping by, because I'm not.

I am proud of what I have achieved and excited about the things I will achieve, and I will not slink about like I'm guilty of something. I did not accumulate anything off the backs of those over-consumers, so I have nothing to hide or apologize for.

[galaxie]

I think I'm in a different kind of social circle than a lot of the other mustachians out there.  Most of our "frugal" choices end up being read as DIY-cool/geeky/city-environmentalist.  Most of our friends are doing this kind of thing too -- they're young and well-paid but they don't have kids.

We don't have cable and watch internet TV?  It's because we're nerds.
My husband repaired an old smartphone instead of me getting the new model when mine broke?  We're DIY nerds.
We bike to work?  It's because we are sporty and/or environmentalist.
Making  beer is a cool project to do with friends.  Cooking dinner is also read as a creative activity.

I suspect that many of our friends have more money than they let on, but the circle also includes some grad students and that helps keep the general spending level pretty low.  We also have some friends that are sometimes voluntarily "funemployed" or working on side projects rather than doing 9-5 work.  Not spending much preserves their ability to do that.

[$_gone_amok]

The first rule of Fight Club is don't talk about Fight Club.

I agree with this. Money can become a sensitive topic among friends and colleagues.  However I have no problem sharing my finances with my family if they asks but they don't.

I'd much rather to talk about something we have in common between friends and colleagues such as sports, cars and etc. Money isn't a topic we have in common so there's really no point talking about it.

[okits]

I am proud of what I have achieved and excited about the things I will achieve, and I will not slink about like I'm guilty of something. I did not accumulate anything off the backs of those over-consumers, so I have nothing to hide or apologize for.

I don't think of myself as slinking around or hiding...  More along the lines of not wearing a flashy gold watch around when vacationing in a poverty-stricken foreign country. 

I do have the benefit of the people closest to me being good with money.  We can talk about our goals and thoughts, and share tips for being even more frugal.  It's nice, but we became friends because of our similarities, so it never occurred to me before that I was fortunate in this regard. 

Besides protecting your 'stash from spendy people who'd like to get their hands on it, discretion saves you from repetitive conversations about values. Some people think it's worth working extra years to buy their lunches and get fancy lattes, and that it's worth taking on debt to fund their lifestyle.  They don't see the value of being "free", sooner.  Sometimes it's not worth the energy to debate with casual acquaintances, especially because money is never an impersonal, unemotional, completely non-confrontational topic.

Since most people intend to quit or reduce their hours at their current job once they reach FI/semi-FI, I think it's safest to keep your goals outside of the workplace.  At the very least, people might feel slighted that you don't want to spend another couple of decades with them in the cubicle farm, soaking in the fluorescent lighting and soul-enriching labor.

[DocCyane]

I am proud of what I have achieved and excited about the things I will achieve, and I will not slink about like I'm guilty of something. I did not accumulate anything off the backs of those over-consumers, so I have nothing to hide or apologize for.

I don't think of myself as slinking around or hiding...  More along the lines of not wearing a flashy gold watch around when vacationing in a poverty-stricken foreign country. 

Besides protecting your 'stash from spendy people who'd like to get their hands on it, discretion saves you from repetitive conversations about values. Some people think it's worth working extra years to buy their lunches and get fancy lattes, and that it's worth taking on debt to fund their lifestyle.  They don't see the value of being "free", sooner.  Sometimes it's not worth the energy to debate with casual acquaintances, especially because money is never an impersonal, unemotional, completely non-confrontational topic.

Since most people intend to quit or reduce their hours at their current job once they reach FI/semi-FI, I think it's safest to keep your goals outside of the workplace.

I agree with okits.

I'm not slinking around either, but rather being mindful of what personal details I share.

As a person of the homosexual persuasion, I've learned that you don't have to reveal details of your life with people if they might misuse the information. This isn't being closeted or embarrassed. It's accepting that some are threatened by the non status quo.

And I get tired of repetitive conversations and attacks on my values as well.

[Milkman666]

I can see your side of things okits and DocCayne, you've both made valid points (except that one thing I am definitely not doing is wearing a gold watch, and we are definitely not in a poverty stricken country).

And DocCayne; thanks for the "As a person of the homosexual persuasion...", I don't know why, but this made me a smile. It makes me imagine some of my former co-workers reacting with fear and outrage that they might be persuaded into homosexuality!

[Southern Stashian]

OK,

Lots of great opinions here and thank you for all of your input. I guess what I'm really struggling with is getting to FI and I am really getting anxious about it - kinda like planning a vacation to somewhere really cool and wanting to know if anyone else has been there. I'm finding myself getting less tolerant with BS at work, counting down the days to FI and can't stand being tied to my employment "leash" anymore.

I think I need a Mustachien intervention or support group! I clearly see the actions that hold others back now that we have made our lifestyle change and have to bite my tongue not to say anything to others. I go to the store and see someone picking up groceries in a diesel F250 and laugh. Or a co-worker shows me their new Android phone that "only cost $250 with a new 2 year commitment at $180 per month" and I go into how it would be cheaper to do this and that.

I was recently working at an apartment complex and started a conversation with one of the leasing agents. She was almost done with her shift and commented to me on how nice it was to live where she worked at - and as a Mustachien I agreed she was lucky to do so. As I sat in my company vehicle doing paperwork I noticed her get into her vehicle - a Hummer H2 and drive the three building distance to her apartment, maybe 700' away from the sales office. WHAT!!!! I was totally in shock! Now without being a Mustachien I may have just looked the other way and not thought one moment about it. But it's things like this that drives me crazy!

Maybe all of society could use a big PUNCH IN THE FACE (or at least a Jackass style groin punch!)

[Southern Stashian]

..... I'm thinking MMM needs a post on how to conduct yourself as a Mustachien around others. I know the "Protecting your Money Mustache from Spendy Friends" is a classic, but what about a blog that goes something like "How to avoid giving out daily face punches" or "Biting your tongue around your suckass friends." Any thoughts?

[happy]

This is bold and presumptuous of me, I beg your pardon if it offends.  From your post I suspect you are still not entirely comfortable with being different to others. Humans are built to be like others around them by and large, tribal survival and all that. When we are different it causes tension, and we can try to resolve that in different ways such as getting irritated or angry about non-Mustachian behaviour. The Antimustachian wall of fame is an example, where we can diffuse this tension,  hopefully with humour. Trying to diffuse this tension by convincing or arguing with people that you are right and they are wrong will not be helpful, since in a sense, you are the odd man out.

I suspect some personalities find it easier than others to smile to  a Mona Lisa smile and quietly go about carving out their own path...INTJs  and INFJs are used to feeling different from everyone else.

What you are experiencing I think is one of the prime reasons this forum is so helpful.

Did the most recent post help any? http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/10/24/frugal-vs-cheap/

[Adventine]

I would favor being more reserved when it comes to talking about finances in general.  Southern Stashian, your intentions are good but talking about FI and being frugal may not always come across as helpful. Some people are just that sensitive and defensive about money. You may end up creating resentment with people you just want to help.

The private Mustachian life can get lonely, I agree. I'm living through it right now. None of my family or close friends are anywhere close to my lifestyle. It's also frustrating seeing some of them struggle with debt especially when the solution seems so obvious to a Mustachian.

Some people have to get into serious trouble or even hit rock bottom before they realize something has to change. If you push too hard before they get to that point, you will be "the annoying guy who never shuts up about financial freedom."

The important thing is to make sure your loved ones know they can approach you for help when they need it. And you can do that by being generally kind and open-minded.

[cats]

I would favor being more reserved when it comes to talking about finances in general.  Southern Stashian, your intentions are good but talking about FI and being frugal may not always come across as helpful. Some people are just that sensitive and defensive about money. You may end up creating resentment with people you just want to help.

Agreed.  You might also want to consider the suggestions you make relative to where people are now.  Moving from an "average" American lifestyle to a lifestyle where early FI is possible may seem like a big jump to people, but you can always help to point them to some intermediate steps.  I know a few years ago I was talking to a friend who was trying to figure out if they could "really" afford a particular apartment.  I managed to turn them onto the idea of tracking spending, sticking to a budget, and having a minimum savings threshold (in their case, maxing out their IRA contributions each year).  Sure, it's not the same as getting them to decide they're going to be FI by 30 or 35, but it at least increases the odds that they won't be destitute at 60, right?  Plus once they've made that step, another step (say, opening a Vanguard account) might start to seem less of a big step. 

Also, think about ways you can phrase it that will resonate more with the person you are talking to.  For example, my mother didn't really "get" the who FI thing but she does REALLY get the idea of being a SAHM feeling like you are not making a financial contribution (not that SAHMs don't make contributions, but that she often felt bad about not earning a salary).  So I phrase it as "I want to save up a lot of money now so that I'll have the option of working less once we have kids, and I'll still know that I've made a contribution".  She got that a lot more readily.  This is kind of a variation of the internet retirement police issue...people have a very specific worldview and if you challenge that worldview, it freaks them out, but if you present in a way that fits in with their existing worldview, they're more receptive.