Author Topic: Y'all are a bunch of quitters - The Great Resignation  (Read 24557 times)

boarder42

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Re: Y'all are a bunch of quitters - The Great Resignation
« Reply #100 on: October 26, 2021, 11:05:58 AM »
The questions about whether it is salary or benefits or schedule flexibility or overworking or....  Suggests to me that perhaps the solution for employers--if they actually see it as a problem and want to solve it--is more of a cafeteria-style approach.  Maybe Bob wants a 7% raise, and Sally wants healthcare for her family of 6 with lower costs to her and Joe wants to work half time from home and Jane wants a 4/10 schedule and Susie wants an extra 2 weeks of PTO and the ability to realistically take that time and Fred is fine with everything except he needs 5-10% less work. 

I think any company that just gives everyone a 10% raise or more vacation or allows WFH for all is going to keep a few people they might have otherwise lost, but not nearly as many as they could have kept for roughly the same cost, but applied more specifically.  I think the current situation has caused workers to evaluate what is most important to them, and they haven't all come to the same conclusion. And if employers want to retain their workforce, they are going to need to treat each worker as an individual. 

Offering a list of options, and perhaps giving a point value to each one, and then telling workers they have a certain number of points to allocate, seems like a fairly easy way of doing that.  If all I really care about is money, I can spend all my points on the largest raise possible.  If what someone else really wants is more time with my family, maybe they take an extra 2 weeks of PTO and get a half day off every other Friday.  Each option costs the employer roughly the same, but keeps both of us happy and working at that company.

I love this idea!  People can choose what's important to them.  Maybe have a yearly "open season" so when life events occur, benefits can shift as needed.

i've pitched this very concept to VPs at my company who quickly point out our already very flexible options as it relates to time but not work location.  And while they are correct we aren't valuing the hour properly for someone who takes on reduced time they just see it as a hit to their hourly rate.  but in reality your cost/value to the company is far higher than your hourly rate.  So instituting a system where employees could choose but they'd also have to understand we bill you out at 150 an hour thats my opportunity cost as an employer to not have you work that hour.  and if you choose more than the regular amount of PTO you won't see a one for one from hour of PTO at your hourly rate. etc. but if you choose to spend that as volunteer time we see value in helping the community so maybe we give you 100 dollars of cost towards your hour of volunteering. 

It further opens a can of worms with the long term tracking of this.  an internal non dollar based work currency would need to be created to manage your lifetime credits and set caps on certain areas.  If not properly setup and well thought out i could see someone like me utlimately gaming this system to hardly ever work but get pretty high wages for doing so.

It sounds like this is significantly different than what I'm proposing.  I'm not suggesting unlimited PTO or anything like that.  I'm suggesting people get to choose maybe 1-3 things (depending on which things) that are most important to them.  If that's 2 extra weeks of PTO for you, great.  But I might take an option that give me three hours off every other Friday.  That's roughly the same 80 hours as your PTO so the same approximate cost to the company, but it makes me happier because it means I get off work in time to pick Timmy up from school and take him to  the Mother Son Ninja class that happens on Fridays at 4p. 

The whole point of assigning points to each option and then letting people "spend" their points is that it allows the company to manage the cost (in either real dollars or man-hours, or some combo) of each person's benefits.  They could give everyone at the company the same number of points, or offer an additional point for every 3 years with the company, or give more points to hard-fill jobs, or whatever they need to do to best manage their workforce.  But with a fairly clear idea of what each option on the menu costs, they can understand overall expense to them. 

And none of the options are going to let someone game the system to hardly ever work.  Again, we are talking things like flexible schedules, additional PTO, lower health care premiums, work from home where practicable, a pay increase, etc.  All of those are things many companies currently offer which suggests they are generally quite viable and not too expensive, but usually they pick one or two (or none) and give the same thing to everyone.  This allows a company to offer all of them as possibilities, without having to pay for all of them for all employees. 

(Of course, something like WFH or partial WFH would only be available in certain jobs, and anything pertaining to scheduling would have to be coordinated so that there is still sufficient staffing at all times.  But again, that's something many companies already do.  At my last real job, after working 2 years, we were eligible for a 9/80.  But we had to take it on a day when there weren't a ton of other people doing the same.  Mondays and Fridays generally went to the most senior people.  And we couldn't take it on the same day as the person we were paired with as a back up. It may sound complicated, but really it was just a case of "when do you want to take it" and then consulting with the back up's schedule and the overall staffing in the department.  Probably took less than 2 minutes for someone to make sure the schedule selected would work.)

what you're proposing is a version of what i pitched just depends on where you draw the boundaries.  i went as high as say 25% of your compensation could be used in various ways at your discression as long as it was an option and the company priced it. 

Either gig like jobs will take off in more fields or companies will have to pivot to something that doesnt just increase money going into people's pockets.

elysianfields

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Re: Y'all are a bunch of quitters - The Great Resignation
« Reply #101 on: October 29, 2021, 05:19:22 AM »

LouLou

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Re: Y'all are a bunch of quitters - The Great Resignation
« Reply #102 on: November 01, 2021, 07:38:53 PM »
The most common reason I hear from people I'm close to... comes from a blend of early-retirement and a re-evaluation of priorities. Basically they took a look at their investments, their life during COVID, and asked 'What am I doing?'.

Even for those who did relatively well at WFH... it can seem like a great time to leave a job (even for just awhile) to prioritize new things - even if they have to tighten the pursestrings a bit to pull it off.

This post accurately describes where I am in life so well! A company is pursuing me for a job that would pay more, sound impressive, and give me more responsibility. It has dawned on me that I do not want or need any of that. I found MMM and the FIRE community years ago, and kept a relatively simple lifestyle while our household income, savings and investments skyrocketed. If I get the job offer, I might graciously turn it down and start seriously considering when to quit. All I really want or need is more time to spend with family and friends, engage in hobbies, and travel. A job can't give me that.

ender

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Re: Y'all are a bunch of quitters - The Great Resignation
« Reply #103 on: November 01, 2021, 08:28:46 PM »
The most common reason I hear from people I'm close to... comes from a blend of early-retirement and a re-evaluation of priorities. Basically they took a look at their investments, their life during COVID, and asked 'What am I doing?'.

Even for those who did relatively well at WFH... it can seem like a great time to leave a job (even for just awhile) to prioritize new things - even if they have to tighten the pursestrings a bit to pull it off.

This post accurately describes where I am in life so well! A company is pursuing me for a job that would pay more, sound impressive, and give me more responsibility. It has dawned on me that I do not want or need any of that. I found MMM and the FIRE community years ago, and kept a relatively simple lifestyle while our household income, savings and investments skyrocketed. If I get the job offer, I might graciously turn it down and start seriously considering when to quit. All I really want or need is more time to spend with family and friends, engage in hobbies, and travel. A job can't give me that.

I recently took a job paying almost twice as much but with way less responsibility.

It is amazing.

Gotta find that right combination :-)

elysianfields

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Re: Y'all are a bunch of quitters - The Great Resignation
« Reply #104 on: November 02, 2021, 05:36:04 AM »
Apparently, quitters of a certain age aren't signing up for Social Security as in previous busts.

The most common reason I hear from people I'm close to... comes from a blend of early-retirement and a re-evaluation of priorities. Basically they took a look at their investments, their life during COVID, and asked 'What am I doing?'.

Even for those who did relatively well at WFH... it can seem like a great time to leave a job (even for just awhile) to prioritize new things - even if they have to tighten the pursestrings a bit to pull it off.

This post accurately describes where I am in life so well! A company is pursuing me for a job that would pay more, sound impressive, and give me more responsibility. It has dawned on me that I do not want or need any of that. I found MMM and the FIRE community years ago, and kept a relatively simple lifestyle while our household income, savings and investments skyrocketed. If I get the job offer, I might graciously turn it down and start seriously considering when to quit. All I really want or need is more time to spend with family and friends, engage in hobbies, and travel. A job can't give me that.

I recently took a job paying almost twice as much but with way less responsibility.

It is amazing.

Gotta find that right combination :-)

@Canuck042 indeed, if my YTD returns continue for a few more years, working for the man has much less attractiveness.

I feel you @LouLou.

Congrats to you @ender !  Care to share more?

ender

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Re: Y'all are a bunch of quitters - The Great Resignation
« Reply #105 on: November 02, 2021, 07:08:07 AM »
Congrats to you @ender !  Care to share more?

I work in tech and left a smaller company with a leadership role for a bigger one and a purely IC role.

This is totally doable in tech.

boarder42

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Re: Y'all are a bunch of quitters - The Great Resignation
« Reply #106 on: November 02, 2021, 07:17:01 AM »
Congrats to you @ender !  Care to share more?

I work in tech and left a smaller company with a leadership role for a bigger one and a purely IC role.

This is totally doable in tech.

IC = In Charge? = what leadership is called at biguns?

darkskys

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Re: Y'all are a bunch of quitters - The Great Resignation
« Reply #107 on: November 02, 2021, 07:24:35 AM »
I’m guessing they mean “individual contributor” which means they are getting out of leadership.

Fomerly known as something

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Re: Y'all are a bunch of quitters - The Great Resignation
« Reply #108 on: November 02, 2021, 09:02:24 AM »
I started a storm I think....

Congratulations.

You raise a good point about extra duties gradually getting heaped on your plate as you stay on in a certain position.  That stuff just accumulates and new stuff comes all the time (even if you try to draw boundaries, set expectations, prioritize, or outright refuse).  Sometimes you just need a reset to wipe the slate clean, and if your managers aren't reasonable that clean slate comes with quitting.

I hope you feel as light as a feather now that you've given your notice.  Congrats on the new job!

Our upper management either does not comprehend this issue or does not know how to solve it without loosing face so they ignore it.  I think it is a combination of the two. On one side I have been told at times (including recently by a former boss) and I am paid well and just need to suck it up.  I did not agree so I solved this problem by moving locations to a hard to staff office that actually understands that since it’s hard to staff it must work hard to keep employees happy in ways that are not monetary. 

On the over promising thing, yeah they want us to be the leading edge of 2 major almost completely unrelated projects.  The biggest problem is one is sexy sounding but takes more resource time and specialized tech skills(technology heavy but it actually takes time even with fast computers) the other is a zero fail critical infrastructure that keeps expanding as new issues arise prompting the need for more human capital with specialized skills.  The skills from both projects have very little overlap.

GodlessCommie

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Re: Y'all are a bunch of quitters - The Great Resignation
« Reply #109 on: November 02, 2021, 10:04:27 AM »
It's kind of funny (and sad) how in the beginning everyone was jumping to conclusions that fit their worldview:

- jobless benefits are too generous!
- no, you just don't pay people enough!

Now we have a more complete picture, and no one knows what to do about it. I'm surprised that issuing more work visas hasn't come to the forefront (not that it has a snowball's chance in hell to go through the Senate).

Apples

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Re: Y'all are a bunch of quitters - The Great Resignation
« Reply #110 on: November 02, 2021, 11:29:22 AM »
Can someone give me a good summed-up version of the complete picture we have now?  B/c the fact that several factories near here, restaurants, and stores are all understaffed to me seems like they need to offer more money.  But that also doesn't really feel like it'll solve the problem.

MudPuppy

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Re: Y'all are a bunch of quitters - The Great Resignation
« Reply #111 on: November 02, 2021, 11:50:23 AM »
I think there’s a lot of truth to the “offer more money” part, but I think there’s more to it than just that.

Off the top of my head, here’s some things that I think are influencing the labor market

-people realized they didn’t need a traditional job anymore (retiring early, becoming a single I come home, living off what was formerly a side hustle, etc)

-some people died or have ongoing debilitating effects due to COVID or are doing unpaid caring for someone who does

-some people who otherwise want to work are unable to do traditional jobs due to adult or child care issues (affordability, unpredictability of school/daycare quarantines, etc)

-some people who die want to work but also who have enough to not go hungry are able to wait out a job that fits their needs and is appropriately compensated


A lot of employers would benefit from not just investment in salary, but also investment in flexibility (location, hours, etc) and other non-salary benefits.


boarder42

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Re: Y'all are a bunch of quitters - The Great Resignation
« Reply #112 on: November 02, 2021, 11:59:33 AM »
I think there’s a lot of truth to the “offer more money” part, but I think there’s more to it than just that.

Off the top of my head, here’s some things that I think are influencing the labor market

-people realized they didn’t need a traditional job anymore (retiring early, becoming a single I come home, living off what was formerly a side hustle, etc)

-some people died or have ongoing debilitating effects due to COVID or are doing unpaid caring for someone who does

-some people who otherwise want to work are unable to do traditional jobs due to adult or child care issues (affordability, unpredictability of school/daycare quarantines, etc)

-some people who die want to work but also who have enough to not go hungry are able to wait out a job that fits their needs and is appropriately compensated


A lot of employers would benefit from not just investment in salary, but also investment in flexibility (location, hours, etc) and other non-salary benefits.

this is the big one lost on my employer. though to be fair if you ask and have a reason they agree with you can get some extra flexibilty including reduced hours and possibly location.

okits

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Re: Y'all are a bunch of quitters - The Great Resignation
« Reply #113 on: November 02, 2021, 12:00:57 PM »
I think there’s a lot of truth to the “offer more money” part, but I think there’s more to it than just that.

Off the top of my head, here’s some things that I think are influencing the labor market

-people realized they didn’t need a traditional job anymore (retiring early, becoming a single I come home, living off what was formerly a side hustle, etc)

-some people died or have ongoing debilitating effects due to COVID or are doing unpaid caring for someone who does

-some people who otherwise want to work are unable to do traditional jobs due to adult or child care issues (affordability, unpredictability of school/daycare quarantines, etc)

-some people who die want to work but also who have enough to not go hungry are able to wait out a job that fits their needs and is appropriately compensated


A lot of employers would benefit from not just investment in salary, but also investment in flexibility (location, hours, etc) and other non-salary benefits.

- COVID has made public-facing jobs more dangerous or unpleasant.  Suddenly, you're not just counter staff at a store, you risk getting infected from interacting with customers and have to enforce mandatory mask or vaccination rules (so face the possibility of getting verbally abused or physically assaulted over that).  I don't think there's a realistic wage that could be offered to convince me to work a job like that.

fell-like-rain

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Re: Y'all are a bunch of quitters - The Great Resignation
« Reply #114 on: November 02, 2021, 12:06:25 PM »
Lots of jobs still just suck. I was looking at jobs at my local library, because that's one of my coast FI fantasy jobs, and they were paying $15 an hour, which is decent-but-not-great for this area. However, these were positions with 4 four-hour shifts per week, a mix of mornings, evenings, and weekends, no benefits, etc. etc.

For librarian positions requiring an MLS degree, they were offering full time with benefits! ... at $18/hour.

Hard to imagine why they have so many openings.

MudPuppy

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Re: Y'all are a bunch of quitters - The Great Resignation
« Reply #115 on: November 02, 2021, 12:13:20 PM »
I think there’s a lot of truth to the “offer more money” part, but I think there’s more to it than just that.

Off the top of my head, here’s some things that I think are influencing the labor market

-people realized they didn’t need a traditional job anymore (retiring early, becoming a single I come home, living off what was formerly a side hustle, etc)

-some people died or have ongoing debilitating effects due to COVID or are doing unpaid caring for someone who does

-some people who otherwise want to work are unable to do traditional jobs due to adult or child care issues (affordability, unpredictability of school/daycare quarantines, etc)

-some people who die want to work but also who have enough to not go hungry are able to wait out a job that fits their needs and is appropriately compensated


A lot of employers would benefit from not just investment in salary, but also investment in flexibility (location, hours, etc) and other non-salary benefits.

- COVID has made public-facing jobs more dangerous or unpleasant.  Suddenly, you're not just counter staff at a store, you risk getting infected from interacting with customers and have to enforce mandatory mask or vaccination rules (so face the possibility of getting verbally abused or physically assaulted over that).  I don't think there's a realistic wage that could be offered to convince me to work a job like that.

Oof. Don’t I just know it. I’m scrolling while eating my lunch after having left a public facing role to take an internally facing one that has partial wfh capability. And took a paycut to do it.

GodlessCommie

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Re: Y'all are a bunch of quitters - The Great Resignation
« Reply #116 on: November 02, 2021, 12:18:43 PM »
COVID has made public-facing jobs more dangerous or unpleasant.  Suddenly, you're not just counter staff at a store, you risk getting infected from interacting with customers and have to enforce mandatory mask or vaccination rules (so face the possibility of getting verbally abused or physically assaulted over that).  I don't think there's a realistic wage that could be offered to convince me to work a job like that.

In some countries, supermarkets have on-site private security. Unlikely it can be cost-effective in the US, though.

jrhampt

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Re: Y'all are a bunch of quitters - The Great Resignation
« Reply #117 on: November 02, 2021, 12:25:01 PM »
I think there’s a lot of truth to the “offer more money” part, but I think there’s more to it than just that.

Off the top of my head, here’s some things that I think are influencing the labor market

-people realized they didn’t need a traditional job anymore (retiring early, becoming a single I come home, living off what was formerly a side hustle, etc)

-some people died or have ongoing debilitating effects due to COVID or are doing unpaid caring for someone who does

-some people who otherwise want to work are unable to do traditional jobs due to adult or child care issues (affordability, unpredictability of school/daycare quarantines, etc)

-some people who die want to work but also who have enough to not go hungry are able to wait out a job that fits their needs and is appropriately compensated


A lot of employers would benefit from not just investment in salary, but also investment in flexibility (location, hours, etc) and other non-salary benefits.

- COVID has made public-facing jobs more dangerous or unpleasant.  Suddenly, you're not just counter staff at a store, you risk getting infected from interacting with customers and have to enforce mandatory mask or vaccination rules (so face the possibility of getting verbally abused or physically assaulted over that).  I don't think there's a realistic wage that could be offered to convince me to work a job like that.

Oof. Don’t I just know it. I’m scrolling while eating my lunch after having left a public facing role to take an internally facing one that has partial wfh capability. And took a paycut to do it.

And also don't forget immigration.  A lot of the seasonal jobs around here that would have been filled by immigrants/migrant workers normally just weren't this summer and last.  IDK if that's a mix of travel restrictions due to covid or changes to immigration policy or what.

CodingHare

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Re: Y'all are a bunch of quitters - The Great Resignation
« Reply #118 on: November 02, 2021, 12:28:38 PM »
I think there’s a lot of truth to the “offer more money” part, but I think there’s more to it than just that.
...
A lot of employers would benefit from not just investment in salary, but also investment in flexibility (location, hours, etc) and other non-salary benefits.

- COVID has made public-facing jobs more dangerous or unpleasant.  Suddenly, you're not just counter staff at a store, you risk getting infected from interacting with customers and have to enforce mandatory mask or vaccination rules (so face the possibility of getting verbally abused or physically assaulted over that).  I don't think there's a realistic wage that could be offered to convince me to work a job like that.

Oof. Don’t I just know it. I’m scrolling while eating my lunch after having left a public facing role to take an internally facing one that has partial wfh capability. And took a paycut to do it.

I also took a paycut to work full time remote.  Offering more money at the minimum wage level is definitely part of the labor crisis solution, but employers are being forced to be more flexible in their hours and benefits, too.  It's been an employer's market since at least 2008, now 13 years later it is finally an employee's market.  And a lot of abusive employers are shocked, just shocked, that employees are switching to jobs with better conditions (which is not just pay.)

There was an Ask A Manager last week that went viral about a guy who was offering $200k salaries at an insanely abusive firm and couldn't understand why employees were taking the best available offers to get out.  The 2008 mindset that we all have to be grateful to our employers for scraps is evaporating quickly.

Apples

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Re: Y'all are a bunch of quitters - The Great Resignation
« Reply #119 on: November 02, 2021, 12:36:23 PM »
I think there’s a lot of truth to the “offer more money” part, but I think there’s more to it than just that.

Off the top of my head, here’s some things that I think are influencing the labor market

-people realized they didn’t need a traditional job anymore (retiring early, becoming a single I come home, living off what was formerly a side hustle, etc)

-some people died or have ongoing debilitating effects due to COVID or are doing unpaid caring for someone who does

-some people who otherwise want to work are unable to do traditional jobs due to adult or child care issues (affordability, unpredictability of school/daycare quarantines, etc)

-some people who die want to work but also who have enough to not go hungry are able to wait out a job that fits their needs and is appropriately compensated


A lot of employers would benefit from not just investment in salary, but also investment in flexibility (location, hours, etc) and other non-salary benefits.

- COVID has made public-facing jobs more dangerous or unpleasant.  Suddenly, you're not just counter staff at a store, you risk getting infected from interacting with customers and have to enforce mandatory mask or vaccination rules (so face the possibility of getting verbally abused or physically assaulted over that).  I don't think there's a realistic wage that could be offered to convince me to work a job like that.

Oof. Don’t I just know it. I’m scrolling while eating my lunch after having left a public facing role to take an internally facing one that has partial wfh capability. And took a paycut to do it.

And also don't forget immigration.  A lot of the seasonal jobs around here that would have been filled by immigrants/migrant workers normally just weren't this summer and last.  IDK if that's a mix of travel restrictions due to covid or changes to immigration policy or what.

Hmmm that's true last summer, though I'm not sure how much for this summer.  We have seasonal agricultural workers here on H-2A visas, and that was only shut down for 1 day under the Trump admin (because they announced a shutdown...and then the entire ag sector freaked the f*ck out), and 3 weeks of the main Mexican consulate being closed while they figured out a new way to do things.  I don't know how other visa classes have fared.

And the places I'm talking about being short staffed are short of people in the positions that can't be flexible - a shift on an apple packing line or at the processor isn't flexible. 

elaine amj

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Re: Y'all are a bunch of quitters - The Great Resignation
« Reply #120 on: November 02, 2021, 12:45:16 PM »
Both my kids worked at a local cafe. They would probably have continued there from sheer inertia although my DD disliked working as a server. Being off due to covid lockdowns gave her the time to job hunt and she found a part time job in the field she is studying. She much, much prefers her new job.

My DS reacted to covid lockdowns by deciding to spend a year moving 6 hrs away to volunteer at a summer camp.

Thankfully, before they had to have the awkward conversation to resign,  their employer decided to close the cafe as they wished to fully retire. I'm sure the endless close/reopen cycle played a part in it too.

So the pandemic broke through their inertia. I wonder if this also happened to other front line workers? Were they able to find better opportunities?  Did many return to school? Are many deciding it is safer to stay home and live off their savings vs risking public contact for not very much money?

Regardless, I hope this inspires (forces?) companies to improve working conditions for front line staff.

And not just being nice and friendly to them. My kids bosses were great and very nicr to them. But they'd work just 2-3 hrs sometimes and some weeks barely got any hours and other weeks would have pour in endless overtime. It saves employer's money just to pay staff when needed - but makes it almost impossible for staff to have a living wage.

It was the same back in my own office when I managed frontline staff. The job itself was great and the pay was a couple of bucks more than minimum. But the hours sucked. We expected staff to be available every day of the week at varying hours including mornings and evenings (making it almost impossible to manage a second job although some did). They also had to be prepared to work at 3 different locations, including one 30 mins and the other 45 mins away from the city. No public transport so that's gas. Tried to convince big boss to allow us to station one staff at each of those locations but he insisted the staff had to be rotated through. Good for flexibility (so we didn't rely on just one person), terrible for retention. All this for a frontline job where you got maybe 6hrs a week in the offseason and 15-25hrs a week in the 3 months of our busy season. Only a job I recommended to the desperate (which many were due to lack of jobs) or the truly flexible.

If big boss had allowed me to hire just 2 (or even 1!) fulltime staff, we would only have had to rely on 1-2 part timers instead of endless schedule juggling leaving nobody satisfied. But that was a no-go to avoid paying benefits.

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Sibley

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Re: Y'all are a bunch of quitters - The Great Resignation
« Reply #121 on: November 03, 2021, 07:44:31 AM »
<snip>

If big boss had allowed me to hire just 2 (or even 1!) fulltime staff, we would only have had to rely on 1-2 part timers instead of endless schedule juggling leaving nobody satisfied. But that was a no-go to avoid paying benefits.

Sent from my VCE-AL00 using Tapatalk

And I am 100% ok with businesses like that struggling. If you're going to treat people badly, then I want karma to get you. Because one of two things will happen: the business will be forced to treat people better, or ultimately the business will close. I'm fine with businesses that recognize they need to treat people well being the ones that thrive and survive.

dougules

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Re: Y'all are a bunch of quitters - The Great Resignation
« Reply #122 on: November 03, 2021, 01:02:38 PM »
<snip>

If big boss had allowed me to hire just 2 (or even 1!) fulltime staff, we would only have had to rely on 1-2 part timers instead of endless schedule juggling leaving nobody satisfied. But that was a no-go to avoid paying benefits.

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And I am 100% ok with businesses like that struggling. If you're going to treat people badly, then I want karma to get you. Because one of two things will happen: the business will be forced to treat people better, or ultimately the business will close. I'm fine with businesses that recognize they need to treat people well being the ones that thrive and survive.

It was massive turnover that forced my former employer to treat people better.  We had completely unnecessary levels of stress.  We hit rock bottom with half our desks empty and the other half of us completely demoralized, and management finally had the brilliant revelation there was a problem.  It was a complete 180 after that, and after a year or two it was like a completely different office. 

Dave1442397

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Re: Y'all are a bunch of quitters - The Great Resignation
« Reply #123 on: November 03, 2021, 01:25:07 PM »
Our management just realized that most of the programmers who do the actual work for our clients are over 65 years old. They panicked and hired three contractors, apparently throwing silly amounts of money at them to get them to sign on. Now I feel like looking around to see what jobs are out there :)

elaine amj

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Re: Y'all are a bunch of quitters - The Great Resignation
« Reply #124 on: November 03, 2021, 01:47:34 PM »
<snip>

If big boss had allowed me to hire just 2 (or even 1!) fulltime staff, we would only have had to rely on 1-2 part timers instead of endless schedule juggling leaving nobody satisfied. But that was a no-go to avoid paying benefits.

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And I am 100% ok with businesses like that struggling. If you're going to treat people badly, then I want karma to get you. Because one of two things will happen: the business will be forced to treat people better, or ultimately the business will close. I'm fine with businesses that recognize they need to treat people well being the ones that thrive and survive.
Amd that's why I am hoping this Great Resignation will change the tide and improve working conditions for frontliners. They have been getting the short end of the stick for so long, even by businesses that generally treat their employees well. Now frontliners are in high demand and have a choice. Why should they put up with undesirable working conditions or unstable paychecks?

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mm1970

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Re: Y'all are a bunch of quitters - The Great Resignation
« Reply #125 on: November 03, 2021, 01:49:32 PM »
It's kind of funny (and sad) how in the beginning everyone was jumping to conclusions that fit their worldview:

- jobless benefits are too generous!
- no, you just don't pay people enough!

Now we have a more complete picture, and no one knows what to do about it. I'm surprised that issuing more work visas hasn't come to the forefront (not that it has a snowball's chance in hell to go through the Senate).
Well, but that's because people don't really like to think too deeply.

However, those two were biggies, particularly the "not paying enough" to do a shitty job.  But also, there was PLENTY of the truth of "there's no childcare".

Also: housing.  Many places here, and in other vacation destinations, cannot keep staffed because they cannot pay enough for people to afford to live there.  Housing costs have gone up so much (rent and own), that the only people who can afford to work these jobs in these locations already live there.

LetsRetireYoung

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Re: Y'all are a bunch of quitters - The Great Resignation
« Reply #126 on: November 03, 2021, 02:47:06 PM »
What an awesome thread. :) Having read every single comment, I suspect some of y'all worked at Amazon with me. :P

I'm a Millennial who spent 11.5 years at Amazon (started as a warehouse temp packing boxes, then became a low-rank analyst, then a mid-rank analyst, etc) - I blogged about my retirement story (and my farewell to Amazon) over here, if anyone is curious.

Amazon in particular was an interesting case study. It has a number of bizarre internal philosophies (such as hiring staff from outside instead of promoting from within - as the HR VP is alleged to have said, "we don't need McDonald's workers" O_o ) and one of them is the strange belief that merely being around other people in those shiny new offices will magically improve productivity. (The so-called water cooler effect.) It's also a pretty greedy company: the only reason Amazon offered WFH at all was because other tech companies (Facebook, Google, etc) had done so.

After they ever-so-reluctantly said that office workers could WFH for 6 months, they just kept sloooowly extending it to match the competitors. When Andy Jassy officially took over from Bezos a few months ago, he stated that yes, the company broke all the productivity records during the WFH year, but he also wanted everyone back at the office because magic water coolers or something. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ By his own logic, that idiot implied that he wanted to lower the shiny new record-setting productivity. Heh.

Then he backtracked and said WFH was fine, actually. LOLOLOLOLOL - I guess they lost a few too many coders due to that nonsense. (Good coders aren't super-rare, but they're a limited resource. It's a zero-sum game in the tech world. Ditto - to a lower extent - for program managers, project managers, etc.)

That was in Seattle HQ. In regional branches (and my Canadian warehouses where I was a financial analyst), it was similar nonsense.

Personally, I left for good after I accomplished my mission: I'd obtained the Canadian permanent residency (after transferring from Seattle to Toronto), and was no longer reliant on that job to stay in the country. (If you're on a work permit, if you lose the job you have to go back to your country.) I still might have stayed on the job for a few more months because I was quite good at it, and my actual work took up maybe 10 hours per week. :) However, my management demanded I go back (for no logical reason) after 14 months of WFH, and given that another analyst got covid at the same warehouse and infected his wife and newborn child (they all survived), I declined to be their human guinea pig. (And my then-girlfriend had a bad immune system, so I didn't really feel like turning her into a human sacrifice for Amazon. I'm not a team player, I know.)

So after 11.5 years, and after seeing my portfolio rise 197% in the preceding 12 months (I was a very good financial analyst ;) ), I politely told them to fuck off, turned in my 2-week notice, and started my lean-FIRE journey. That was almost 6 months ago, and I have zero regrets. :) I know most of my fellow Great Resignees didn't leave because they retired young, but I like to think there are quite a few others like me...

ender

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Re: Y'all are a bunch of quitters - The Great Resignation
« Reply #127 on: November 03, 2021, 03:00:19 PM »
What an awesome thread. :) Having read every single comment, I suspect some of y'all worked at Amazon with me. :P

I'm a Millennial who spent 11.5 years at Amazon (started as a warehouse temp packing boxes, then became a low-rank analyst, then a mid-rank analyst, etc) - I blogged about my retirement story (and my farewell to Amazon) over here, if anyone is curious.

Amazon in particular was an interesting case study. It has a number of bizarre internal philosophies (such as hiring staff from outside instead of promoting from within - as the HR VP is alleged to have said, "we don't need McDonald's workers" O_o ) and one of them is the strange belief that merely being around other people in those shiny new offices will magically improve productivity. (The so-called water cooler effect.) It's also a pretty greedy company: the only reason Amazon offered WFH at all was because other tech companies (Facebook, Google, etc) had done so.

After they ever-so-reluctantly said that office workers could WFH for 6 months, they just kept sloooowly extending it to match the competitors. When Andy Jassy officially took over from Bezos a few months ago, he stated that yes, the company broke all the productivity records during the WFH year, but he also wanted everyone back at the office because magic water coolers or something. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ By his own logic, that idiot implied that he wanted to lower the shiny new record-setting productivity. Heh.

Then he backtracked and said WFH was fine, actually. LOLOLOLOLOL - I guess they lost a few too many coders due to that nonsense. (Good coders aren't super-rare, but they're a limited resource. It's a zero-sum game in the tech world. Ditto - to a lower extent - for program managers, project managers, etc.)

That was in Seattle HQ. In regional branches (and my Canadian warehouses where I was a financial analyst), it was similar nonsense.

Day2 investing is where it's at my friend these days :-)

My team lost a ton of people at the end of 2020 because they wouldn't commit on remote, to fully remote jobs, heh.

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Re: Y'all are a bunch of quitters - The Great Resignation
« Reply #128 on: November 03, 2021, 03:30:10 PM »
We had another one quit this week for a huge raise elsewhere.  I don't think management is going to realize what is happening until it's way too late, and by then anybody who's left is going to be so overworked and underpaid they'll be right on the heels of everyone else.

LetsRetireYoung

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Re: Y'all are a bunch of quitters - The Great Resignation
« Reply #129 on: November 03, 2021, 11:35:44 PM »
Day2 investing is where it's at my friend these days :-)

My team lost a ton of people at the end of 2020 because they wouldn't commit on remote, to fully remote jobs, heh.

Then we probably already sort-of know each other. :) I'm Grigory - you've probably seen my posts a lot haha

dougules

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Re: Y'all are a bunch of quitters - The Great Resignation
« Reply #130 on: November 09, 2021, 02:06:15 PM »
We had another one quit this week for a huge raise elsewhere.  I don't think management is going to realize what is happening until it's way too late, and by then anybody who's left is going to be so overworked and underpaid they'll be right on the heels of everyone else.

Is it just money or are there issues with culture and BS?  So much of the time when people jump for more money, they wouldn’t have found it in the first place if workplace BS hadn’t caused them to start looking for it.

JLee

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Re: Y'all are a bunch of quitters - The Great Resignation
« Reply #131 on: November 09, 2021, 02:14:02 PM »
We had another one quit this week for a huge raise elsewhere.  I don't think management is going to realize what is happening until it's way too late, and by then anybody who's left is going to be so overworked and underpaid they'll be right on the heels of everyone else.

Is it just money or are there issues with culture and BS?  So much of the time when people jump for more money, they wouldn’t have found it in the first place if workplace BS hadn’t caused them to start looking for it.

All of the above.

boarder42

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Re: Y'all are a bunch of quitters - The Great Resignation
« Reply #132 on: November 09, 2021, 05:35:44 PM »
We had another one quit this week for a huge raise elsewhere.  I don't think management is going to realize what is happening until it's way too late, and by then anybody who's left is going to be so overworked and underpaid they'll be right on the heels of everyone else.

Is it just money or are there issues with culture and BS?  So much of the time when people jump for more money, they wouldn’t have found it in the first place if workplace BS hadn’t caused them to start looking for it.

All of the above.

Yeah we just had someone leave who was offered a 25% raise and remote which we aren't offering.

effigy98

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Re: Y'all are a bunch of quitters - The Great Resignation
« Reply #133 on: November 09, 2021, 06:54:29 PM »
Lots of in place retirements (do no work until they get rid of you) at my work and a few real retirements. The salaries have not kept up with our other tech competition and they are paying double in some cases. Many people are doing little to no work. You had a few people here and there doing that, but never like half the work force. The ironic thing is if you are a moron and they notice you do actual work, they just dump it on to you to make up for the work others are not doing with very little added pay and then claim they cannot get more workers and will not get rid of the slackers.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2021, 06:57:05 PM by effigy98 »

dougules

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Re: Y'all are a bunch of quitters - The Great Resignation
« Reply #134 on: November 09, 2021, 07:25:17 PM »
We had another one quit this week for a huge raise elsewhere.  I don't think management is going to realize what is happening until it's way too late, and by then anybody who's left is going to be so overworked and underpaid they'll be right on the heels of everyone else.

Is it just money or are there issues with culture and BS?  So much of the time when people jump for more money, they wouldn’t have found it in the first place if workplace BS hadn’t caused them to start looking for it.

All of the above.

Do you think the BS is affecting you?  Don't let yourself get burned out. 

JLee

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Re: Y'all are a bunch of quitters - The Great Resignation
« Reply #135 on: November 10, 2021, 05:56:44 AM »
We had another one quit this week for a huge raise elsewhere.  I don't think management is going to realize what is happening until it's way too late, and by then anybody who's left is going to be so overworked and underpaid they'll be right on the heels of everyone else.

Is it just money or are there issues with culture and BS?  So much of the time when people jump for more money, they wouldn’t have found it in the first place if workplace BS hadn’t caused them to start looking for it.

All of the above.

Do you think the BS is affecting you?  Don't let yourself get burned out.

Oh absolutely. Numerous plans are evolving as time relentlessly plods on :)

dougules

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Re: Y'all are a bunch of quitters - The Great Resignation
« Reply #136 on: November 10, 2021, 12:30:50 PM »
Do you think the BS is affecting you?  Don't let yourself get burned out.

Oh absolutely. Numerous plans are evolving as time relentlessly plods on :)

It might be good to see a therapist, too, if that's not in the plans already.   Take care of your health. 

dadbod

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Re: Y'all are a bunch of quitters - The Great Resignation
« Reply #137 on: November 12, 2021, 04:03:49 AM »
We're seeing this effect two - lost two members of our team in the last month to higher paying jobs and better fits (one - full time WFH, one management role).  With a third member of our five person team going on maternity leave today, my life is going to get busy for the next few months. 

Company is seeing an exodus so there are rumblings of across the board market adjustment.  For various reasons, I'm staying put for a year a least so I'm hoping for it.  Also contemplating using my newfound leverage to ask for some changes in roles/responsibilities.

LetsRetireYoung

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Re: Y'all are a bunch of quitters - The Great Resignation
« Reply #138 on: November 12, 2021, 11:38:30 AM »
I'm not sure if people who switch jobs count as part of the Great Resignation. The net number of jobs in the economy doesn't change - it's not like they're switching to work for a different country, or going on a one-way trip to Mars. :P

I think a more important thing to watch is how many people quit to retire, or to take a year (or more!) off, or to start a family, etc. In other words, how many are leaving the workforce completely?

GodlessCommie

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Re: Y'all are a bunch of quitters - The Great Resignation
« Reply #139 on: November 12, 2021, 01:09:52 PM »
I'm not sure if people who switch jobs count as part of the Great Resignation. The net number of jobs in the economy doesn't change - it's not like they're switching to work for a different country, or going on a one-way trip to Mars. :P

I think a more important thing to watch is how many people quit to retire, or to take a year (or more!) off, or to start a family, etc. In other words, how many are leaving the workforce completely?

Accelerated retirements are definitely a thing: https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2020/11/09/the-pace-of-boomer-retirements-has-accelerated-in-the-past-year/

elysianfields

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Re: Y'all are a bunch of quitters - The Great Resignation
« Reply #140 on: November 13, 2021, 12:31:33 AM »
Quote from: The New York Times
The number of U.S. workers quitting their jobs in September was the highest on record

Of a total number of 4.4 million quitters, less than a quarter of those quitting were in the leisure and hospitality industries - and those industries remain desperate for qualified workers.

The article cites child care as an ongoing need, and points to Goldman Sachs economists, who believe two-thirds of the quitters are over 55; many of them probably retired and seem unlikely to return to work.

Corona remains a factor, given the anecdote about a barmaid quitting because management was urging a coworker to come in to work despite being ill (though not necessarily with COVID-19).

GodlessCommie

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Re: Y'all are a bunch of quitters - The Great Resignation
« Reply #141 on: November 13, 2021, 12:47:16 PM »
Of a total number of 4.4 million quitters, less than a quarter of those quitting were in the leisure and hospitality industries - and those industries remain desperate for qualified workers.

Given that leisure and hospitality employs ~13% of US workers, less than a quarter means almost double the rate of exits of other industries.

https://www.bls.gov/emp/tables/employment-by-major-industry-sector.htm

LetsRetireYoung

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Re: Y'all are a bunch of quitters - The Great Resignation
« Reply #142 on: November 13, 2021, 02:36:56 PM »
The article cites child care as an ongoing need, and points to Goldman Sachs economists, who believe two-thirds of the quitters are over 55; many of them probably retired and seem unlikely to return to work.
Everyone has a price... Hell, as much as I'm enjoying my leisurely lean-FIRE retirement, I'd probably go right back in if Amazon offered me the 47 shares that they owe from years ago (cheap bastards) as an immediate sign-up bonus. (I reserve the option to be an asshole and walk away haha)

Considering that this year's Nobel prize for economics was for a truly groundbreaking concept ("hey guys, maybe we can look at real-life situations to see how our theories actually play out?" - no, seriously), it'll probably take all those MBA geniuses another century or so to figure out that they can coerce people into coming back by throwing a bunch of cash at them or (and that's even cheaper!) improving their work conditions.

Don't hold your breath, though. :P

protostache

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Re: Y'all are a bunch of quitters - The Great Resignation
« Reply #143 on: November 14, 2021, 04:25:26 AM »
Not sure if my story counts as part of the great resignation but I guess y'all can be the judge. Over the last year I decided I didn't like my job anymore and started the process of finding a new one, only to pause it because I thought things were getting better. A surprise conversation with my manager last month informed me that, in fact, things actually got worse. That was followed quickly by a conversation with HR where I was presented with either taking a severance or going through a performance plan, after which severance would not be offered again. I took a week to think about it and then decided on the severance. Because of their policy of only paying accrued PTO in states where that's legally required I gave one day notice and then took as much of my PTO as they would let me.

Three days later I had an offer in hand for 50% more base pay and two levels up at a company where I believe I can have recognizable impact. I accepted on the condition that I can start mid January, so now I'm taking an almost three month paid leave.

Bonus: my manager left "mutually" a week after I gave notice. Apparently it had been in the works for a couple weeks prior.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2021, 04:30:35 AM by protostache »

dbfire

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Re: Y'all are a bunch of quitters - The Great Resignation
« Reply #144 on: November 14, 2021, 11:16:44 AM »
Not sure if my story counts as part of the great resignation but I guess y'all can be the judge. Over the last year I decided I didn't like my job anymore and started the process of finding a new one, only to pause it because I thought things were getting better. A surprise conversation with my manager last month informed me that, in fact, things actually got worse. That was followed quickly by a conversation with HR where I was presented with either taking a severance or going through a performance plan, after which severance would not be offered again. I took a week to think about it and then decided on the severance. Because of their policy of only paying accrued PTO in states where that's legally required I gave one day notice and then took as much of my PTO as they would let me.

Three days later I had an offer in hand for 50% more base pay and two levels up at a company where I believe I can have recognizable impact. I accepted on the condition that I can start mid January, so now I'm taking an almost three month paid leave.

Bonus: my manager left "mutually" a week after I gave notice. Apparently it had been in the works for a couple weeks prior.

Congrats on the new job that's hopefully more aligned with your desire to have an impact, and your well deserved time away from work!

For me, anyone that takes action to improve their job situation (either by finding a new one or leaving the workforce entirely to improve their mental or physical health if they can) should be commended. It is not an easy thing to find the courage to do.

elysianfields

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Re: Y'all are a bunch of quitters - The Great Resignation
« Reply #145 on: November 14, 2021, 12:29:02 PM »
Not sure if my story counts as part of the great resignation but I guess y'all can be the judge. Over the last year I decided I didn't like my job anymore and started the process of finding a new one, only to pause it because I thought things were getting better. A surprise conversation with my manager last month informed me that, in fact, things actually got worse. That was followed quickly by a conversation with HR where I was presented with either taking a severance or going through a performance plan, after which severance would not be offered again. I took a week to think about it and then decided on the severance. Because of their policy of only paying accrued PTO in states where that's legally required I gave one day notice and then took as much of my PTO as they would let me.

Three days later I had an offer in hand for 50% more base pay and two levels up at a company where I believe I can have recognizable impact. I accepted on the condition that I can start mid January, so now I'm taking an almost three month paid leave.

Bonus: my manager left "mutually" a week after I gave notice. Apparently it had been in the works for a couple weeks prior.

You're definitely a quitter and that would normally be counted in the stats.  The reason for quitting - retiring, got a better offer elsewhere, couldn't get child care, etc. - is immaterial.

Congratulations on the new gig and the paid sabbatical!  Any plans to fill your time between jobs?

protostache

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Re: Y'all are a bunch of quitters - The Great Resignation
« Reply #146 on: November 17, 2021, 09:19:54 AM »
Congratulations on the new gig and the paid sabbatical!  Any plans to fill your time between jobs?

No definite plans. I have a bunch of little projects that need to get done around the house, plus the holidays are mixed in there. I was convinced that I need to do something to "relax" during this time so I just set up a video game console for myself for the first time in almost a decade.

bryan995

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Re: Y'all are a bunch of quitters - The Great Resignation
« Reply #147 on: November 19, 2021, 09:39:02 AM »
Wife just quit her job.  Immediately found a new one for 35% more comp AND is full remote.  Hawaii here we come.

elaine amj

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Re: Y'all are a bunch of quitters - The Great Resignation
« Reply #148 on: November 19, 2021, 01:49:05 PM »
Wife just quit her job.  Immediately found a new one for 35% more comp AND is full remote.  Hawaii here we come.
Congratulations!  That is really awesome!

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Re: Y'all are a bunch of quitters - The Great Resignation
« Reply #149 on: November 19, 2021, 08:29:11 PM »
My super-frugal sister is retiring in a couple of weeks, just short of her 60th birthday, after an extraordinarily challenging career as an intensive care (and then cardiac care) nurse. She's very well-regarded at her hospital and the cardiac docs are horrified that she's leaving.

Her manager has known for a while that she's retiring but today, my sister had to go and hand in a formal, written resignation notice. She has one shift left a few weeks from now.

No congrats or any positive words at all from the manager. Instead, the manager asks if my sister wants her performance evaluation.

Sis responds, "No thanks, I'm good. Unless you want me to do something differently between now and my last shift."

Then the manager asks if my sister could pick up a few shifts.