Y'all are a bunch of quitters - The Great Resignation

[soulpatchmike]

I have found this exodus from the workforce a strange phenomenon.  The problem is that I have not been able to find any data that can support any of my anecdotal reasons for it.  Some of the impacts to our local economy from the goings-on of the last couple years...

-A previously thriving downtown is now a place where many folks are afraid to go to take their kids to a ball game or go for a cocktail after work which reduces commerce in the downtown areas and many restaurants, some 40-50 years old, are closed permanently.
-Coffee shops close at 2pm due to lack of staff all around the city in both urban and suburban locations
-Fast food restaurants either closed on weekends or hours are limited due to lack of staff.  Some are drive-through only to stay open.
-24 hour gas stations are the rarity rather than common as they were in the past.

I have heard similar issues from friends in other metro areas, but again don't have real data on it.

My question is more related to food and service industries vs corporate america than most have been discussing so far.  But it is interesting that the labor shortage is not limited to one industry segment, it seems across the board.

I have sifted through a lot of published economic data and can't seem to come up with a reasonable hypothesis.  Things like the aging workforce and such are good talking points, but I haven't found demographic data that supports a reduction in workforce aged people in America.

[Sibley]

While I don't have data, my guess is its a combo of:

1. People died
2. More people retired than expected
3. Parents who had to drop out of the workforce due to lack of childcare or unreliable in-person school
4. People who were in crap jobs found better jobs (this would explain the shortage in retail especially)
5. People had covid, didn't die, but are still too ill to work
6. People who had to drop out of workforce to care for the newly disabled due to covid.
7. Normal expected retirements of aging Boomers - which was starting to cause problems before covid in some cases.

Demographic data takes time to be gathered and then published. I wouldn't expect to see much yet.

[JoePublic3.14]

So far my coworkers are leaving for more lucrative jobs - I suspect that's the case with many (most?).

That's what I see as well (though I was recently one of the quitters leaving for more greener and lucrative pastures).
Most coworkers that left saw 20-40% increases.

I think its honestly a ripple of inflation sweeping through industry.  Which will hit the high earners first and then slowly cascade down to the lower earners.  Buckle up.

We’ve had a bunch leave also, and the rumor has been higher pay. We also have hired a few, and I have wondered if they got a big bump to their old pay, and their backfill at the old company got a bump, and so on and so on…certainly seems inflationary.

[boarder42]

My company gave out no raises in 2020 and 3% in 2021. Worked everyone to the bone throughout the pandemic.

We had 5 "top" engineers, 2 are left, I am handing in my notice tomorrow... couldn't be more excited.

NICE are you FI or are you leaving for a different job.

[okits]

While I don't have data, my guess is its a combo of:

1. People died
2. More people retired than expected
3. Parents who had to drop out of the workforce due to lack of childcare or unreliable in-person school
4. People who were in crap jobs found better jobs (this would explain the shortage in retail especially)
5. People had covid, didn't die, but are still too ill to work
6. People who had to drop out of workforce to care for the newly disabled due to covid.
7. Normal expected retirements of aging Boomers - which was starting to cause problems before covid in some cases.

All of the above.  I'll add:

8. Shift-work employees simply working fewer shifts (illness, burnout, caregiving responsibilities, increasingly stressful working conditions).
9. Quitting due to burnout.

Labour shortage is exacerbated by COVID restrictions.  Things that need to be accomplished take more time due to infection prevention requirements.

High five to everyone who found themselves a better situation and encouragement to anyone looking.

[TheAnonOne]

My company gave out no raises in 2020 and 3% in 2021. Worked everyone to the bone throughout the pandemic.

We had 5 "top" engineers, 2 are left, I am handing in my notice tomorrow... couldn't be more excited.

NICE are you FI or are you leaving for a different job.

I WOULD be FI if I didn't get a larger house 2 years ago so "no" I am not FI but will be soon. Kinda in that 1-3 year coasting stage while the market does it's job.

I am one of the two remaining "top" engineers. 20 minutes ago they scoffed at matching my current offer, instead asking why I was "unsatisfied" at my current role. Apparently, more money is not a valid reason for leaving.

In reality, my currently role here has some annoying points, mainly job duties that have latched on like leaches over the past 2-4 years, there isn't much value in sharing everything though with my current job. When I did share some of that, they got defensive "but that's your job", my only logical counter was "why are all the other XYZ level engineers leaving then".

I started a storm I think....

[jrhampt]

While I don't have data, my guess is its a combo of:

1. People died
2. More people retired than expected
3. Parents who had to drop out of the workforce due to lack of childcare or unreliable in-person school
4. People who were in crap jobs found better jobs (this would explain the shortage in retail especially)
5. People had covid, didn't die, but are still too ill to work
6. People who had to drop out of workforce to care for the newly disabled due to covid.
7. Normal expected retirements of aging Boomers - which was starting to cause problems before covid in some cases.

All of the above.  I'll add:

8. Shift-work employees simply working fewer shifts (illness, burnout, caregiving responsibilities, increasingly stressful working conditions).
9. Quitting due to burnout.

Labour shortage is exacerbated by COVID restrictions.  Things that need to be accomplished take more time due to infection prevention requirements.

High five to everyone who found themselves a better situation and encouragement to anyone looking.

Also possibly 10. immigration restrictions due to covid?  That was a big one around here for seasonal workers and the seafood industry.

And I'll second numbers 5 and 6.  We're seeing #5 with my parents right now - Dad hasn't been able to work for 2 months now and counting.  Idk if he'll ever be in good enough shape to return.  And I don't know how people remain employed while trying to care for those in the #5 category either.

[WSUCoug1994]

I was reading another article about how the stimulus checks + rent moratoriums have driven some of this as well.

[okits]

I started a storm I think....

Congratulations.

You raise a good point about extra duties gradually getting heaped on your plate as you stay on in a certain position.  That stuff just accumulates and new stuff comes all the time (even if you try to draw boundaries, set expectations, prioritize, or outright refuse).  Sometimes you just need a reset to wipe the slate clean, and if your managers aren't reasonable that clean slate comes with quitting.

I hope you feel as light as a feather now that you've given your notice.  Congrats on the new job!

[mm1970]

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/10/14/more-than-300000-women-left-the-labor-force-in-september-.html

We've lost a lot of people across the organization - promotions, more money, new locations, burnout.

My company is encouraging "back to work" (half time) even though our numbers don't warrant it.  It's like the company leader just decided he hit his "I'm over it" limit and wants people to come back - not realizing that everyone has their own level of comfort.  Like, one of my bosses is rushing people back.  The other one almost never comes in because he lost his office and prefers to work at home (his hours are so crazy anyway, he was already working half days at home).

Meanwhile, we are out of office space and they are going to be cramming people together.  Look, I can effectively work from home.  I LOVE being at my office now - with the door closed and my officemate absent.  I'm happy to be here when he's not, and vice versa, because we don't want to work all day in masks if we don't have to.  I think that I really like the flexibility with part time WFH and part time at the office.

[moof]

One reality that gets skipped over is that when you let people go, they don't just sit around waiting for their job to come back.  People move on and figure things out.  So when demand comes back the employers who cut folks loose have a much smaller pool to rehire than they expected.

On my own front I was reminded (yet again) just how transactional companies are.  We are all "family" and "valued" so long as saying so costs nothing and motivates.  Once it comes to making some compromise to accommodate up-ended pandemic life, or to create a safe environment for those who have to be in the office or deal with the public not so much.  Twice I tried to go temporarily 75% time over the summer to spend more time with my homebound kid, and twice it just didn't work with the limits of corporate policy ("Sorry, we have to stick to this dumb rule we wrote for ourselves").

I've got a couple resumes out, hoping one will come through.  2.2 years to FIRE...

[Cool Friend]

My current job features an abusive boss that make my friends' eyes pop when I tell them stories. He brought us all back to the office before it was really safe--we were managing just fine working from home, but he's one of those who likes to flex arbitrary control to feel good about himself. There have been no precautions set up in our office except for a couple bottles of hand sanitizer. Masks are optional and we haven't had a vaccine mandate. I tried to make some very reasonable compromises with him and was flat out denied each time.

His disregard for our health and safety is as arbitrary as it is repulsive. A couple weeks ago he went out of town, so I thought it was a good time to work from home, since I wouldn't be able to work with him in person anyway. Got chewed out about it, so headed off to the office, but had to turn back because I had a full-blown panic attack and collapsed on the street. I took two weeks vacation to recuperate, but the very day I returned to work all my R&R evaporated. I'm just as drained as I was before I took vacation.

We all worked our asses off during the pandemic with zero consideration or accommodation for the strain we were under. He is committed to everything going back to "normal" because the pandemic has been inconvenient for him, but it's not normal and I can't pretend that it is anymore. I've been looking for work. but here was my most recent interview:

I had an interview for a project manager position in my exceptionally HCOL city and was offered 35k, no retirement plan, partially covered health insurance (they never gave me a straight answer on how much, exactly, despite asking on three different occasions). I have 15+ years of experience, that's a right-out-of-school entry level salary at best. The CEO kept asking me what I make now (i.e, "how little can we get away with paying you"), which is illegal in my state. I politely declined to share that info. Hilariously, while we were making small talk, he remarked on having just bought a vacation home in one of the tony suburbs outside of the city where houses typically sell for around $1MM. I guess that second home was more important to him than growing his business by hiring experienced, capable workers and paying them their actual fucking market value.

When I turned the job down, I told the recruiter for this position (an old coworker/friend of mine) that, as he well knows, I'm not a flashy guy looking for megabucks to fund an opulent lifestyle. After taxes, the salary they offered would cover my rent with nothing left over.

These are the only jobs I see open right now. I hope something better comes along before I have another breakdown, because I would really prefer not to quit without a job lined up. But ideally, I would stop working entirely for a few months to try to swim out of the ocean of stress I've been drowning in.

[ixtap]

I had an interview for a project manager position in my exceptionally HCOL city and was offered 35k...
...a vacation home in one of the tony suburbs outside of the city where houses typically sell for around $1MM.

OK, your situation is horrible, but this does not compute. What "exceptionally HCOL" has tony suburbs where houses typically sell for only $1 million?

[Cool Friend]

I had an interview for a project manager position in my exceptionally HCOL city and was offered 35k...
...a vacation home in one of the tony suburbs outside of the city where houses typically sell for around $1MM.

OK, your situation is horrible, but this does not compute. What "exceptionally HCOL" has tony suburbs where houses typically sell for only $1 million?

Would prefer not to say where I live, but there are def $2-4MM homes too. Maybe he spent that much, idk.

[mm1970]

I had an interview for a project manager position in my exceptionally HCOL city and was offered 35k...
...a vacation home in one of the tony suburbs outside of the city where houses typically sell for around $1MM.

OK, your situation is horrible, but this does not compute. What "exceptionally HCOL" has tony suburbs where houses typically sell for only $1 million?

Would prefer not to say where I live, but there are def $2-4MM homes too. Maybe he spent that much, idk.

I mean, I don't know how you define "Exceptionally HCOL" or "VCOL" anyway, you know?  It's all relative.

You can be very HCOL and NOT be California, DC, NYC, and Seattle.  I think we all tend to think of "HCOL" as "ridiculously HCOL", and that's an error.

[Cool Friend]

Enough about that, should I or should I not quit my job and find a Buddhist monastery that will take me in

[iluvzbeach]

Wow, some of the stuff you all have been through sounds downright abusive and horrific. My company has been nothing short of AMAZING during the pandemic and I am so appreciative of their efforts. I still plan to FIRE by year-end, but it has nothing whatsoever to do with the company. My heart goes out to the rest of you who are dealing with such nonsense.

FWIW, I work for a tech company and the powers that be are largely leaving it up to each employee to determine whether they will be 100% WFH, office-based or a hybrid approach.

[ixtap]

I had an interview for a project manager position in my exceptionally HCOL city and was offered 35k...
...a vacation home in one of the tony suburbs outside of the city where houses typically sell for around $1MM.

OK, your situation is horrible, but this does not compute. What "exceptionally HCOL" has tony suburbs where houses typically sell for only $1 million?

Would prefer not to say where I live, but there are def $2-4MM homes too. Maybe he spent that much, idk.

I mean, I don't know how you define "Exceptionally HCOL" or "VCOL" anyway, you know?  It's all relative.

You can be very HCOL and NOT be California, DC, NYC, and Seattle.  I think we all tend to think of "HCOL" as "ridiculously HCOL", and that's an error.

In this case, it was specifically the combo of "tony" in addition to exceptionally HCOL. Cleveland OH has lower than average COL and there are suburbs that I would expect to find million dollar homes in.

[NaN]

A little bit of a change in direction but this article was interesting. Economic Rebound

Ms. Eager, who is vaccinated, said that she had always been careful with money and that she built savings this year by staying home and socking away unemployment benefits and other aid. “My financial situation is OK, and I think that is 99 percent of the reason that I can be choosy about my job prospects,” she said.

Americans have saved trillions of dollars since the pandemic began. ....
....
....

Some businesses seem determined to wait them out. Wages have risen, but many employers appear reluctant to make other changes to attract workers, like flexible schedules and better benefits. That may be partly because, for all their complaints about a labor shortage, many companies are finding that they can get by with fewer workers, in some instances by asking customers to accept long waits or reduced service.

 “They’re making a lot of profits in part because they’re saving on labor costs, and the question is how long can that go on,” said Julia Pollak, chief economist for the employment site ZipRecruiter. Eventually, she said, customers may get tired of busing their own tables or sitting on hold for hours, and employers may be forced to give into workers’ demands.

Savings, who would have thought it empowers the worker and not the employer!??!

Flying recently through Phoenix resulted in being crammed into one section of the terminal rather than being spread out. I think some businesses are making the conditions even worse for the employees and customers. And customers have to stop purchasing. Which surprise further enhances savings!

I think this is turning into the great worker showdown. Who will flinch first? The new financial stable workers or companies who will fail without their workers? Maybe a little bit of both, most likely, until enough workers need work and there are fewer companies to work for. I guess both are not good for the economy.

[Lifestyle Deflation]

The mindset shift from COVID has yet to be fully understood at a society level. We had this massive event that affected everyone, made them reconsider everything, and realize that anything is possible. I think it's made many people reconsider wasting their lives in pointless jobs they hate.

[ixtap]

The mindset shift from COVID has yet to be fully understood at a society level. We had this massive event that affected everyone, made them reconsider everything, and realize that anything is possible. I think it's made many people reconsider wasting their lives in pointless jobs they hate.

Yeah, all the talk at getting back to normal, but it would.be rather odd to just go back to the way things were done after such a disruptive event. A lot of people suddenly stopped taking "that's just the way it is" for granted.

[Rusted Rose]

A little bit of a change in direction but this article was interesting. Economic Rebound

....

Some businesses seem determined to wait them out. Wages have risen, but many employers appear reluctant to make other changes to attract workers, like flexible schedules and better benefits. That may be partly because, for all their complaints about a labor shortage, many companies are finding that they can get by with fewer workers, in some instances by asking customers to accept long waits or reduced service.

 “They’re making a lot of profits in part because they’re saving on labor costs, and the question is how long can that go on,”

From a book that was published in 2004:

By 1991, the effects of [the October 1987 stock market crash] had been evident for some time as corporations shrunk (sic) their workforces and hundreds of thousands of people were out of work for longer than they had ever had to be before. Those who were left in companies were doing the work of two or three people and felt it.

Emphasis mine.

I believe that this was the first time companies discovered the possibility of severely overworking whoever was left, but it's become endemic and part of the playbook by now. They'll take a mile if they think they can.

The way that companies respond to pressures that we think should make them improve employment conditions is often to take a destructive, inhumane, and selfish tack first.

I sound like a terrible cynic here but, well, I guess I am.

[JLee]

A little bit of a change in direction but this article was interesting. Economic Rebound

....

Some businesses seem determined to wait them out. Wages have risen, but many employers appear reluctant to make other changes to attract workers, like flexible schedules and better benefits. That may be partly because, for all their complaints about a labor shortage, many companies are finding that they can get by with fewer workers, in some instances by asking customers to accept long waits or reduced service.

 “They’re making a lot of profits in part because they’re saving on labor costs, and the question is how long can that go on,”

From a book that was published in 2004:

By 1991, the effects of [the October 1987 stock market crash] had been evident for some time as corporations shrunk (sic) their workforces and hundreds of thousands of people were out of work for longer than they had ever had to be before. Those who were left in companies were doing the work of two or three people and felt it.

Emphasis mine.

I believe that this was the first time companies discovered the possibility of severely overworking whoever was left, but it's become endemic and part of the playbook by now. They'll take a mile if they think they can.

The way that companies respond to pressures that we think should make them improve employment conditions is often to take a destructive, inhumane, and selfish tack first.

I sound like a terrible cynic here but, well, I guess I am.

I had someone at an employer once tell me how going out to work on XYZ project is so exciting because you get to see all this stuff happening, and time goes by so fast because you're so busy - working as early as 6-8am until 1-2am for multiple days.

As if working 18-20 hour days as a salaried employee is a good thing...

[DoneFSO]

Enough about that, should I or should I not quit my job and find a Buddhist monastery that will take me in

I was moved by your original post explaining your situation.  I know you are (half) joking about quitting and joining a Buddhist monastery, which would be drastic and uncertain, but you could take a vacation to a Buddhist monastery.  This is a serious suggestion, as it sounds like a vacation is in order for you.  Something like a one-week vacation in Bhutan, visiting the monasteries there, might do you good.

[Rusted Rose]

A little bit of a change in direction but this article was interesting. Economic Rebound

....

Some businesses seem determined to wait them out. Wages have risen, but many employers appear reluctant to make other changes to attract workers, like flexible schedules and better benefits. That may be partly because, for all their complaints about a labor shortage, many companies are finding that they can get by with fewer workers, in some instances by asking customers to accept long waits or reduced service.

 “They’re making a lot of profits in part because they’re saving on labor costs, and the question is how long can that go on,”

From a book that was published in 2004:

By 1991, the effects of [the October 1987 stock market crash] had been evident for some time as corporations shrunk (sic) their workforces and hundreds of thousands of people were out of work for longer than they had ever had to be before. Those who were left in companies were doing the work of two or three people and felt it.

Emphasis mine.

I believe that this was the first time companies discovered the possibility of severely overworking whoever was left, but it's become endemic and part of the playbook by now. They'll take a mile if they think they can.

The way that companies respond to pressures that we think should make them improve employment conditions is often to take a destructive, inhumane, and selfish tack first.

I sound like a terrible cynic here but, well, I guess I am.

I had someone at an employer once tell me how going out to work on XYZ project is so exciting because you get to see all this stuff happening, and time goes by so fast because you're so busy - working as early as 6-8am until 1-2am for multiple days.

As if working 18-20 hour days as a salaried employee is a good thing...

Remarkable what people will put up with.

In a completely different area but in keeping with the sentiment, I've been shocked at the nonchalant embrace of processed fake meat (plus the strange Orwellian allowance of its masquerade IN THE MEAT SECTION OF STORES). I find this Beyond dystopian.

/threadjack

[ixtap]

In a completely different area but in keeping with the sentiment, I've been shocked at the nonchalant embrace of processed fake meat (plus the strange Orwellian allowance of its masquerade IN THE MEAT SECTION OF STORES). I find this Beyond dystopian.

/threadjack

I am onboard with you on this one. Just eat your beans without adding a whole industry into the mix, if you want to cut back on meat consumption.

[ender]

It really should be called The Great Raise-ignation.

[Rusted Rose]

In a completely different area but in keeping with the sentiment, I've been shocked at the nonchalant embrace of processed fake meat (plus the strange Orwellian allowance of its masquerade IN THE MEAT SECTION OF STORES). I find this Beyond dystopian.

/threadjack

I am onboard with you on this one. Just eat your beans without adding a whole industry into the mix, if you want to cut back on meat consumption.

I don't want to, myself. I mean, beans are cheaper for sure, but I believe that meat, raised properly and as part of a regenerative farming process, is one of the best things for our bodies. It's also rather dystopian how we went from millions of free-roaming bison and deer and such to this weird consolidated ballsack-clutching toxic factory system. Just so wrong.

I also like beans, though, and they are real food that already exists, yes! There is no need for this weird Frankenfood trend (except follow the money).

You encouraged my threadjack, haha. :)

[JoePublic3.14]

It really should be called The Great Raise-ignation.

I haven’t talked to people in depth who have done it, but I’m wondering about the whole compensation package. Since so many companies have continued to degrade things like pensions and likely other things, it certainly makes folks much more portable.

[Just Joe]

I had an interview for a project manager position in my exceptionally HCOL city and was offered 35k...
...a vacation home in one of the tony suburbs outside of the city where houses typically sell for around $1MM.

OK, your situation is horrible, but this does not compute. What "exceptionally HCOL" has tony suburbs where houses typically sell for only $1 million?

Would prefer not to say where I live, but there are def $2-4MM homes too. Maybe he spent that much, idk.

I mean, I don't know how you define "Exceptionally HCOL" or "VCOL" anyway, you know?  It's all relative.

You can be very HCOL and NOT be California, DC, NYC, and Seattle.  I think we all tend to think of "HCOL" as "ridiculously HCOL", and that's an error.

Or perhaps the cost of property is huge but the average local income is low. There are areas like that. Median family income $40K but many properties are $500K+.

[Arbitrage]

I had someone at an employer once tell me how going out to work on XYZ project is so exciting because you get to see all this stuff happening, and time goes by so fast because you're so busy - working as early as 6-8am until 1-2am for multiple days.

As if working 18-20 hour days as a salaried employee is a good thing...

I know that place!  Well, perhaps not, but a well-known company just like it.  Management was always in the business of drumming up excitement from the employees in order to get them to make crazy quality-of-life sacrifices.  My company has numerous employees who had burnt out (or left before burnout) from that company and moved to mine.  They were always dangling carrots...once we make XXX milestone things will ease off a bit and you won't need to work 80-100 hours every week, but then there was always another milestone or project. 

They were continually harvesting newer, younger employees who could/would manage the workload due to lack of family obligations, lack of confidence/security to stand up for themselves, or the excessive excitement of youth.  Works out for the company, but I would never want to work under those conditions.

[Lifestyle Deflation]

9 times out of 10 management is just telling people what they want to hear to get them to shut up (it'll get better, just get through this, blah blah). I think now, it's truly a transactional relationship on both sides. If the deal stops working for the employee, they're gone. And that's how it should be. Everything flows better when both employee and employer want to be there and make things happen together.

[mm1970]

In a completely different area but in keeping with the sentiment, I've been shocked at the nonchalant embrace of processed fake meat (plus the strange Orwellian allowance of its masquerade IN THE MEAT SECTION OF STORES). I find this Beyond dystopian.

/threadjack

I am onboard with you on this one. Just eat your beans without adding a whole industry into the mix, if you want to cut back on meat consumption.

I don't want to, myself. I mean, beans are cheaper for sure, but I believe that meat, raised properly and as part of a regenerative farming process, is one of the best things for our bodies. It's also rather dystopian how we went from millions of free-roaming bison and deer and such to this weird consolidated ballsack-clutching toxic factory system. Just so wrong.

I also like beans, though, and they are real food that already exists, yes! There is no need for this weird Frankenfood trend (except follow the money).

You encouraged my threadjack, haha. :)

I actually tried one of these a month or so ago (Impossible burger, or something like it).  It's actually quite delish and scratches the burger itch in a way that my homemade bean and veggie burger does not.

I like regular cow burgers too.  We make and buy those also.  What I'm saying is: there's room in my life for the occasional fake meat.

[TrMama]

Enough about that, should I or should I not quit my job and find a Buddhist monastery that will take me in

I was moved by your original post explaining your situation.  I know you are (half) joking about quitting and joining a Buddhist monastery, which would be drastic and uncertain, but you could take a vacation to a Buddhist monastery.  This is a serious suggestion, as it sounds like a vacation is in order for you.  Something like a one-week vacation in Bhutan, visiting the monasteries there, might do you good.

You sound like you're suffering from anxiety, at the very least. I'd make an appointment with your doctor to discuss treatment, find a therapist to help you learn some mitigation techniques and read up on your short and long term disability benefits. Then, get your doctor to sign whatever he/she needs to so you can get some partially paid time off.

Your health is valuable and your company has no right to degrade it.

[JLee]

In a completely different area but in keeping with the sentiment, I've been shocked at the nonchalant embrace of processed fake meat (plus the strange Orwellian allowance of its masquerade IN THE MEAT SECTION OF STORES). I find this Beyond dystopian.

/threadjack

I am onboard with you on this one. Just eat your beans without adding a whole industry into the mix, if you want to cut back on meat consumption.

I don't want to, myself. I mean, beans are cheaper for sure, but I believe that meat, raised properly and as part of a regenerative farming process, is one of the best things for our bodies. It's also rather dystopian how we went from millions of free-roaming bison and deer and such to this weird consolidated ballsack-clutching toxic factory system. Just so wrong.

I also like beans, though, and they are real food that already exists, yes! There is no need for this weird Frankenfood trend (except follow the money).

You encouraged my threadjack, haha. :)

I actually tried one of these a month or so ago (Impossible burger, or something like it).  It's actually quite delish and scratches the burger itch in a way that my homemade bean and veggie burger does not.

I like regular cow burgers too.  We make and buy those also.  What I'm saying is: there's room in my life for the occasional fake meat.

Impossible Burger is pretty good - way better than Beyond Burger, which kinda tastes like I imagine cat food does.

[Cool Friend]

Enough about that, should I or should I not quit my job and find a Buddhist monastery that will take me in

I was moved by your original post explaining your situation.  I know you are (half) joking about quitting and joining a Buddhist monastery, which would be drastic and uncertain, but you could take a vacation to a Buddhist monastery.  This is a serious suggestion, as it sounds like a vacation is in order for you.  Something like a one-week vacation in Bhutan, visiting the monasteries there, might do you good.

You sound like you're suffering from anxiety, at the very least. I'd make an appointment with your doctor to discuss treatment, find a therapist to help you learn some mitigation techniques and read up on your short and long term disability benefits. Then, get your doctor to sign whatever he/she needs to so you can get some partially paid time off.

Your health is valuable and your company has no right to degrade it.

Yeah, fortunately I have a therapist and a psychiatrist and am on medications. It certainly helps, but I think ultimately I'm not going to get real relief until I get out of this place.

Bhutan it is!  What a beautiful-looking country.

[eostache]

Ms. Eager, who is vaccinated, said that she had always been careful with money and that she built savings this year by staying home and socking away unemployment benefits and other aid. “My financial situation is OK, and I think that is 99 percent of the reason that I can be choosy about my job prospects,” she said.

Americans have saved trillions of dollars since the pandemic began. ....
....

Savings, who would have thought it empowers the worker and not the employer!??!

I collected UI during the pandemic. I was laid off my job in 2019 and my regular UI ran out just as the pandemic extensions were set up. I was very lucky to collect 101 weeks of UI. (I kept a spreadsheet to track every payment.) I carefully saved about half of my UI pay.

My partner was a part time freelancer and his one client closed up shop when the pandemic started so he was eligible for the PUA UI payments. He also saved a lot of it.

We can easily live off that savings for a couple of years.

[Canuck042]

The most common reason I hear from people I'm close to... comes from a blend of early-retirement and a re-evaluation of priorities. Basically they took a look at their investments, their life during COVID, and asked 'What am I doing?'.

Even for those who did relatively well at WFH... it can seem like a great time to leave a job (even for just awhile) to prioritize new things - even if they have to tighten the pursestrings a bit to pull it off.

[Villanelle]

The questions about whether it is salary or benefits or schedule flexibility or overworking or....  Suggests to me that perhaps the solution for employers--if they actually see it as a problem and want to solve it--is more of a cafeteria-style approach.  Maybe Bob wants a 7% raise, and Sally wants healthcare for her family of 6 with lower costs to her and Joe wants to work half time from home and Jane wants a 4/10 schedule and Susie wants an extra 2 weeks of PTO and the ability to realistically take that time and Fred is fine with everything except he needs 5-10% less work. 

I think any company that just gives everyone a 10% raise or more vacation or allows WFH for all is going to keep a few people they might have otherwise lost, but not nearly as many as they could have kept for roughly the same cost, but applied more specifically.  I think the current situation has caused workers to evaluate what is most important to them, and they haven't all come to the same conclusion. And if employers want to retain their workforce, they are going to need to treat each worker as an individual. 

Offering a list of options, and perhaps giving a point value to each one, and then telling workers they have a certain number of points to allocate, seems like a fairly easy way of doing that.  If all I really care about is money, I can spend all my points on the largest raise possible.  If what someone else really wants is more time with my family, maybe they take an extra 2 weeks of PTO and get a half day off every other Friday.  Each option costs the employer roughly the same, but keeps both of us happy and working at that company.

[Apples]

What is going to happen to the trucking industry? Trucks just not showing up to ship orders is a HUGE problem right now.

And we have a farm. We will not do a vaccine mandate because 1/3 of our equipment operators will quit. We also dont require masks, especially as a lot of work is outside. I feel for the large apple processor and packinghouses nearby who have over 100 blue collar workers, are all 10% understaffed already, and are dreading the mandate.

[Mini-Mer]

Yeah, I'm a quitter!  I had a few longstanding gripes with my job, mostly about company-wide policies that were gradually getting worse.  Maybe they were trying to squeeze out long-time (expensive) employees? or expecting people to work off the books or donate vacation time back to a very profitable company? or just oblivious to how demoralizing it is to be evaluated more on your office's collective luck than your skill/effort?

Then my office decided they needed us all to start showing up in person no matter what the pandemic was doing, or what we were working on.  Sitting in the office did not get me more work - I tracked that.  Really I was being used for decoration, so the bosses could look at my occupied desk and feel a warm glow of normalcy.  I felt rather differently about that.

I had regularly complained about the company policies, had stated my preference for a hybrid schedule post-pandemic, and had questioned returning to the office while the local ICUs were full.  I have a mortgage, so I was polite, so nothing I said registered as 'Mini-Mer is not happy and might walk', so my boss was blindsided when I gave notice.  Oh well.

Financially, I've been positioning to either downshift or move to freelance work in the next few years, with an eye on the 2026 FIRE cohort.  So switching to a similar job - which I did - feels like a safe move.  And if it doesn't work out, I'll look again.  It feels nice to be getting un-stuck!

[JJ-]

Sitting in the office did not get me more work

Funny, I had to start working from home regularly pre pandemic because I would get "drive by" assignments as special projects would be assigned based on who they could find in the office.

[jrhampt]

We will not do a vaccine mandate because 1/3 of our equipment operators will quit. We also dont require masks, especially as a lot of work is outside. I feel for the large apple processor and packinghouses nearby who have over 100 blue collar workers, are all 10% understaffed already, and are dreading the mandate.

Will they really quit, though?  Or will they just complain and go get vaccinated anyway?  Hartford Hospital just lost 100 employees over the mandate....which turns out to be 0.3% of the entire staff.  It's tough if you're understaffed to begin with, but how many of those unvaccinated employees have been out sick passing around the virus and contributing to understaffing regardless?  I think the main takeaway from the vaccine mandates is that they actually do work, because most people can't just quit their jobs.

[TrMama]

We will not do a vaccine mandate because 1/3 of our equipment operators will quit. We also dont require masks, especially as a lot of work is outside. I feel for the large apple processor and packinghouses nearby who have over 100 blue collar workers, are all 10% understaffed already, and are dreading the mandate.

Will they really quit, though?  Or will they just complain and go get vaccinated anyway?  Hartford Hospital just lost 100 employees over the mandate....which turns out to be 0.3% of the entire staff.  It's tough if you're understaffed to begin with, but how many of those unvaccinated employees have been out sick passing around the virus and contributing to understaffing regardless?  I think the main takeaway from the vaccine mandates is that they actually do work, because most people can't just quit their jobs.

The risk is probably more that they'd just move to a job that doesn't have a vaccine mandate. BC ran into this when they mandated vaccines for nursing home staff, but not hospital staff. The non-compliant personal health care workers in the nursing homes just switched to jobs in the hospitals. Both places were understaffed so the Great Resignation worked for the anti-vaxxers too. The loophole has since been closed by putting in a vaccine mandate in all health care locations.

For truck operators, if there's a union a vaccine mandate should be implemented to be part of the union. Or perhaps it could be tied to licensing or something.

[Apples]

On our farm, theyll just quit and go to any of the 100 other farms not requiring a vaccine. At the factories, idk, but NY teachers just had 4% quit, and that would put these places at 15% understaffed. Theyre really not in the place to be putting additional requirements in place.

[Villanelle]

On our farm, theyll just quit and go to any of the 100 other farms not requiring a vaccine. At the factories, idk, but NY teachers just had 4% quit, and that would put these places at 15% understaffed. Theyre really not in the place to be putting additional requirements in place.

To be somewhat fair, there are many, many reasons teachers I leaving the workforce.  I have several teacher friends and every single one of them is seriously considering leaving either soon or at the end of the school year.  And every single one of them is fully vaccinated and enthusiastically support vaccine requirements for teachers and staff.  So 4% quitting, unless there is some date tying it directly to vax mandates (and even then, I don't fully trust people to self-report motives in an accurate and complete way), doesn't seem especially meaningful in a conversation about whether people will quit to do a mandate.

I think that if it is easy to find a similar job that pays similarly, in the same area,  there is a good chance some people would quit over this.  It sounds like that is the case with farms in your area, so I understand the concern.

I think another factor that is overlooked is the costs of having people out sick, or increased health insurance costs for companies, and related issues.  If you keep 5% of the workers you might have lost to a mandate, but you have increased sick time (paid or even unpaid) and the associated issues with staffing, your insurance costs go up due to Covid treatments, and maybe a few workers die or are disabled and unable to return for months and you have have to replace them, you may end up worse off from both a staffing and expense perspective.  It's certainly a complex issue, at a minimum. 

[Archipelago]

I quit last month as well. Wasn't a bad job by any means, but I was all set with going into the office and commuting each day. We had been in the office the entire time through COVID. Even in March 2020. I left on good terms and kept a relationship open for project/contract work.

I'd rather build my businesses and spend more time with family/friends. It's been great! That first Monday not going into work was especially nice lol.

[RainyDay]

The questions about whether it is salary or benefits or schedule flexibility or overworking or....  Suggests to me that perhaps the solution for employers--if they actually see it as a problem and want to solve it--is more of a cafeteria-style approach.  Maybe Bob wants a 7% raise, and Sally wants healthcare for her family of 6 with lower costs to her and Joe wants to work half time from home and Jane wants a 4/10 schedule and Susie wants an extra 2 weeks of PTO and the ability to realistically take that time and Fred is fine with everything except he needs 5-10% less work. 

I think any company that just gives everyone a 10% raise or more vacation or allows WFH for all is going to keep a few people they might have otherwise lost, but not nearly as many as they could have kept for roughly the same cost, but applied more specifically.  I think the current situation has caused workers to evaluate what is most important to them, and they haven't all come to the same conclusion. And if employers want to retain their workforce, they are going to need to treat each worker as an individual. 

Offering a list of options, and perhaps giving a point value to each one, and then telling workers they have a certain number of points to allocate, seems like a fairly easy way of doing that.  If all I really care about is money, I can spend all my points on the largest raise possible.  If what someone else really wants is more time with my family, maybe they take an extra 2 weeks of PTO and get a half day off every other Friday.  Each option costs the employer roughly the same, but keeps both of us happy and working at that company.

I love this idea!  People can choose what's important to them.  Maybe have a yearly "open season" so when life events occur, benefits can shift as needed. 

[boarder42]

The questions about whether it is salary or benefits or schedule flexibility or overworking or....  Suggests to me that perhaps the solution for employers--if they actually see it as a problem and want to solve it--is more of a cafeteria-style approach.  Maybe Bob wants a 7% raise, and Sally wants healthcare for her family of 6 with lower costs to her and Joe wants to work half time from home and Jane wants a 4/10 schedule and Susie wants an extra 2 weeks of PTO and the ability to realistically take that time and Fred is fine with everything except he needs 5-10% less work. 

I think any company that just gives everyone a 10% raise or more vacation or allows WFH for all is going to keep a few people they might have otherwise lost, but not nearly as many as they could have kept for roughly the same cost, but applied more specifically.  I think the current situation has caused workers to evaluate what is most important to them, and they haven't all come to the same conclusion. And if employers want to retain their workforce, they are going to need to treat each worker as an individual. 

Offering a list of options, and perhaps giving a point value to each one, and then telling workers they have a certain number of points to allocate, seems like a fairly easy way of doing that.  If all I really care about is money, I can spend all my points on the largest raise possible.  If what someone else really wants is more time with my family, maybe they take an extra 2 weeks of PTO and get a half day off every other Friday.  Each option costs the employer roughly the same, but keeps both of us happy and working at that company.

I love this idea!  People can choose what's important to them.  Maybe have a yearly "open season" so when life events occur, benefits can shift as needed.

i've pitched this very concept to VPs at my company who quickly point out our already very flexible options as it relates to time but not work location.  And while they are correct we aren't valuing the hour properly for someone who takes on reduced time they just see it as a hit to their hourly rate.  but in reality your cost/value to the company is far higher than your hourly rate.  So instituting a system where employees could choose but they'd also have to understand we bill you out at 150 an hour thats my opportunity cost as an employer to not have you work that hour.  and if you choose more than the regular amount of PTO you won't see a one for one from hour of PTO at your hourly rate. etc. but if you choose to spend that as volunteer time we see value in helping the community so maybe we give you 100 dollars of cost towards your hour of volunteering. 

It further opens a can of worms with the long term tracking of this.  an internal non dollar based work currency would need to be created to manage your lifetime credits and set caps on certain areas.  If not properly setup and well thought out i could see someone like me utlimately gaming this system to hardly ever work but get pretty high wages for doing so.

[Villanelle]

The questions about whether it is salary or benefits or schedule flexibility or overworking or....  Suggests to me that perhaps the solution for employers--if they actually see it as a problem and want to solve it--is more of a cafeteria-style approach.  Maybe Bob wants a 7% raise, and Sally wants healthcare for her family of 6 with lower costs to her and Joe wants to work half time from home and Jane wants a 4/10 schedule and Susie wants an extra 2 weeks of PTO and the ability to realistically take that time and Fred is fine with everything except he needs 5-10% less work. 

I think any company that just gives everyone a 10% raise or more vacation or allows WFH for all is going to keep a few people they might have otherwise lost, but not nearly as many as they could have kept for roughly the same cost, but applied more specifically.  I think the current situation has caused workers to evaluate what is most important to them, and they haven't all come to the same conclusion. And if employers want to retain their workforce, they are going to need to treat each worker as an individual. 

Offering a list of options, and perhaps giving a point value to each one, and then telling workers they have a certain number of points to allocate, seems like a fairly easy way of doing that.  If all I really care about is money, I can spend all my points on the largest raise possible.  If what someone else really wants is more time with my family, maybe they take an extra 2 weeks of PTO and get a half day off every other Friday.  Each option costs the employer roughly the same, but keeps both of us happy and working at that company.

I love this idea!  People can choose what's important to them.  Maybe have a yearly "open season" so when life events occur, benefits can shift as needed.

i've pitched this very concept to VPs at my company who quickly point out our already very flexible options as it relates to time but not work location.  And while they are correct we aren't valuing the hour properly for someone who takes on reduced time they just see it as a hit to their hourly rate.  but in reality your cost/value to the company is far higher than your hourly rate.  So instituting a system where employees could choose but they'd also have to understand we bill you out at 150 an hour thats my opportunity cost as an employer to not have you work that hour.  and if you choose more than the regular amount of PTO you won't see a one for one from hour of PTO at your hourly rate. etc. but if you choose to spend that as volunteer time we see value in helping the community so maybe we give you 100 dollars of cost towards your hour of volunteering. 

It further opens a can of worms with the long term tracking of this.  an internal non dollar based work currency would need to be created to manage your lifetime credits and set caps on certain areas.  If not properly setup and well thought out i could see someone like me utlimately gaming this system to hardly ever work but get pretty high wages for doing so.

It sounds like this is significantly different than what I'm proposing.  I'm not suggesting unlimited PTO or anything like that.  I'm suggesting people get to choose maybe 1-3 things (depending on which things) that are most important to them.  If that's 2 extra weeks of PTO for you, great.  But I might take an option that give me three hours off every other Friday.  That's roughly the same 80 hours as your PTO so the same approximate cost to the company, but it makes me happier because it means I get off work in time to pick Timmy up from school and take him to  the Mother Son Ninja class that happens on Fridays at 4p. 

The whole point of assigning points to each option and then letting people "spend" their points is that it allows the company to manage the cost (in either real dollars or man-hours, or some combo) of each person's benefits.  They could give everyone at the company the same number of points, or offer an additional point for every 3 years with the company, or give more points to hard-fill jobs, or whatever they need to do to best manage their workforce.  But with a fairly clear idea of what each option on the menu costs, they can understand overall expense to them. 

And none of the options are going to let someone game the system to hardly ever work.  Again, we are talking things like flexible schedules, additional PTO, lower health care premiums, work from home where practicable, a pay increase, etc.  All of those are things many companies currently offer which suggests they are generally quite viable and not too expensive, but usually they pick one or two (or none) and give the same thing to everyone.  This allows a company to offer all of them as possibilities, without having to pay for all of them for all employees. 

(Of course, something like WFH or partial WFH would only be available in certain jobs, and anything pertaining to scheduling would have to be coordinated so that there is still sufficient staffing at all times.  But again, that's something many companies already do.  At my last real job, after working 2 years, we were eligible for a 9/80.  But we had to take it on a day when there weren't a ton of other people doing the same.  Mondays and Fridays generally went to the most senior people.  And we couldn't take it on the same day as the person we were paired with as a back up. It may sound complicated, but really it was just a case of "when do you want to take it" and then consulting with the back up's schedule and the overall staffing in the department.  Probably took less than 2 minutes for someone to make sure the schedule selected would work.)