WP: Even as gas prices rattle economy, Americans can’t stay off the road

[PDXTabs]

In summary, consumers in the USA are willing to cut back on anything except petrol. This is different from the last time that we had a large run-up in fuel prices and has broader economic implications. Washington Post: Even as gas prices rattle economy, Americans can’t stay off the road

[CodingHare]

I'm curious about the impact of WFH on this--I didn't see it mentioned, but commuting was the biggest driver of gas consumption in our household.  With both of us full time WFH, the only trips we do are groceries and fun excursions.  So even though it's a shock to see that $40 fillup for a full tank, I'm only filling up once every 6 weeks or so.

The biggest place I'm seeing the costs is the grocery bill.  We've always bought generic house brand, so the biggest cut we've made recently is cutting our meat consumption by 80%.  We're still seeing much higher food bills though.

If I was a stock picker, I'd be putting my chips on electric vehicles, specifically electric long haul trucks.  As it is, index fund and ride it out, as usual.

[chemistk]

I think that many Americans are more or less locked into some form of a commute.

It's absolutely not the norm around here, but for those who can't WFH, you have little to no choice but to drive. That's the case with me, at least - I was mostly WFH for about 18 months, but my job necessitates being in the office (can't take a chem. lab home) and we are only 3/4 staffed in our group, so I have to go in every day. It absolutely sucks.

Moreover, I think people are still going to travel more than ever this year because societally we've deemed the pandemic to be effectively over. I made vacation reservations all the way back in January (State Park booked 6 months out) and I'm sure many others did the same with VRBO's, etc. If you already weren't flying, then the only choices are to not travel or to eat the fuel cost.

[SpaceCow]

Gas prices simply are not have risen far enough to make Americans reconsider their driving habits. I've noticed no change in the numbers of single-digit-mpg toy trucks on the road. The price of pickups and SUVs have not fallen drastically nor has the price for fuel efficient vehicles increased relative to the rest of the market. Unfortunately, it seems even Democrat lawmakers are afraid to let gas prices rise anywhere near high enough to account for their negative externalities.

[JLee]

Gas prices simply are not have risen far enough to make Americans reconsider their driving habits. I've noticed no change in the numbers of single-digit-mpg toy trucks on the road. The price of pickups and SUVs have not fallen drastically nor has the price for fuel efficient vehicles increased relative to the rest of the market. Unfortunately, it seems even Democrat lawmakers are afraid to let gas prices rise anywhere near high enough to account for their negative externalities.

A lot of people seem to have forgotten that inflation exists - lots of complaints about gas prices but nobody acknowledging that $4.50 in 2009 was a hell of a lot more than $4.50 in 2022.  Seems behavior is outweighing the complaints!

[simonsez]

In summary, consumers in the USA are willing to cut back on anything except petrol. This is different from the last time that we had a large run-up in fuel prices and has broader economic implications. Washington Post: Even as gas prices rattle economy, Americans can’t stay off the road

What do you expect?  If the gas price is too high, do you think commuters who can't work from home to just quit?

For those fun trips planned in advance - spending hard earned dollars to visit with friends and family, broaden cultural horizons, make a concerted effort to have leisure time, etc. in a relatively inelastic manner relative to the transit costs are a feature of humanity, not a bug.  Staying home as a direct result of gas prices instead of doing what I had planned to do for fun is not great for my mental health.  I'd rather make cuts elsewhere (this is all assuming you still can pay the bills).

We'll have energy figured out before too long (not only in what type of energy our cars harness, but also what powers our grid) and have more than we know what to do with - so this seems like a temporary annoyance.  And if higher gas prices can act as a catalyst to switch to more renewables and nuclear faster than otherwise, I'm all for it.

Besides, we still have cheap gasoline relative to other parts of the world with similar development/societal infrastructure.  We as a country are pretty terrible at pricing in the externalities when it comes to products related to fossil fuels.
https://www.globalpetrolprices.com/gasoline_prices/

[PDXTabs]

In summary, consumers in the USA are willing to cut back on anything except petrol. This is different from the last time that we had a large run-up in fuel prices and has broader economic implications. Washington Post: Even as gas prices rattle economy, Americans can’t stay off the road

What do you expect?  If the gas price is too high, do you think commuters who can't work from home to just quit?

In 2008 commuters found other ways to get to work including carpooling, transit, and buying more fuel efficient cars. Of course buying cars right now is hard, maybe they should have thought ahead and purchased less trucks and SUVs for the last 12 years.

[PDXTabs]

Gas prices simply are not have risen far enough to make Americans reconsider their driving habits. I've noticed no change in the numbers of single-digit-mpg toy trucks on the road. The price of pickups and SUVs have not fallen drastically nor has the price for fuel efficient vehicles increased relative to the rest of the market. Unfortunately, it seems even Democrat lawmakers are afraid to let gas prices rise anywhere near high enough to account for their negative externalities.

I agree with all of this, not just the bold part.

[Tigerpine]

In summary, consumers in the USA are willing to cut back on anything except petrol. This is different from the last time that we had a large run-up in fuel prices and has broader economic implications. Washington Post: Even as gas prices rattle economy, Americans can’t stay off the road

What do you expect?  If the gas price is too high, do you think commuters who can't work from home to just quit?

In 2008 commuters found other ways to get to work including carpooling, transit, and buying more fuel efficient cars. Of course buying cars right now is hard, maybe they should have thought ahead and purchased less trucks and SUVs for the last 12 years.

Yeah, this puzzles me, too.  A lot of it is cultural and peer pressure, I think.

When I lived in the SE, my coworkers sometimes made fun of me for driving a Corolla instead of a pick-up truck. 

[jinga nation]

In summary, consumers in the USA are willing to cut back on anything except petrol. This is different from the last time that we had a large run-up in fuel prices and has broader economic implications. Washington Post: Even as gas prices rattle economy, Americans can’t stay off the road

What do you expect?  If the gas price is too high, do you think commuters who can't work from home to just quit?

In 2008 commuters found other ways to get to work including carpooling, transit, and buying more fuel efficient cars. Of course buying cars right now is hard, maybe they should have thought ahead and purchased less trucks and SUVs for the last 12 years.

Yeah, this puzzles me, too.  A lot of it is cultural and peer pressure, I think.

When I lived in the SE, my coworkers sometimes made fun of me for driving a Corolla instead of a pick-up truck.

Anecdata
1: I've seen increasing numbers of large SUVs and trucks and luxo-barges as gas prices have risen.
2: I'm seeing increased crazier erratic driving by drivers of vehicles in 1.
3. I'm seeing crazier longer lines in fast-food drive-thrus, and many of the vehicles are huge, get stuck, or hit poles/walls.
Have a neighbor who owns an automotive garage, he says he's very busy fixing SUVs and lifted trucks for minor damage. A lot more business than usual.

[mm1970]

I think that many Americans are more or less locked into some form of a commute.

It's absolutely not the norm around here, but for those who can't WFH, you have little to no choice but to drive. That's the case with me, at least - I was mostly WFH for about 18 months, but my job necessitates being in the office (can't take a chem. lab home) and we are only 3/4 staffed in our group, so I have to go in every day. It absolutely sucks.

Moreover, I think people are still going to travel more than ever this year because societally we've deemed the pandemic to be effectively over. I made vacation reservations all the way back in January (State Park booked 6 months out) and I'm sure many others did the same with VRBO's, etc. If you already weren't flying, then the only choices are to not travel or to eat the fuel cost.

We are flying this summer, and I'm feeling better about flying from our local airport vs. driving 2 hours.  However, we still have a few flights to purchase, and they are going to be very expensive, but whatever.

[NorthernBlitz]

In summary, consumers in the USA are willing to cut back on anything except petrol. This is different from the last time that we had a large run-up in fuel prices and has broader economic implications. Washington Post: Even as gas prices rattle economy, Americans can’t stay off the road

I think we've know for a pretty long time that demand for gasoline is inelastic. In fact, this is the image at the top of the first link google served me for the definition of "inelastic demand"



I'd imagine that this is especially true in the short term because the decisions that really move the needle on gas consumption are generally big financial decisions.

And the "short term" we're currently living through is one where consumers would have to pay huge premiums to reduce gas consumption by (a) purchasing different cars (new or used) to get better gas mileage or (b) purchase different homes to reduce miles driven. And many people (at least where I live in NY state) still seem to be worried enough about covid that they are still masking up in public places, so I'd imagine they wouldn't be super excited about carpooling.

If gas prices remain high and / or increase, I'd imagine that we'd see changes in demand as people make different decisions about purchasing different vehicles. I can't see too many people moving because of gas prices though. At least where I live. The housing market remains pretty insane here with very few homes on the market and sky high prices.

[Arbitrage]

Sign me up for higher gas prices, reduction or elimination of subsidies for oil/gas, roads, parking, and car-focused infrastructure.  Redirect that money toward renewables, public transit, safety, pedestrian/bike infrastructure.  We need to break this cycle of car myopia that has killed the American city (among other things).  No, I don't think it's an simple fix, but it's a goal worth pursuing. 

[Villanelle]

The inelasticity is what I was going to comment on as well.  And right now, buying a car with better gas mileage is even more difficult and expensive, so that avenue for moving the needle on use is less realistic.  I also think people were locked in for Covid for so long that canceling driving trips is even less likely than usual.  While that is technically a way people could drive less, I think the lockdowns have made that less likely, and even that probably represents a fairly small percent of overall gas usage.
 
DH is driving my smaller car slightly more, which means my usage is up.  I only made it 2 months between fill ups when usually it is 3. 

[SpaceCow]

In summary, consumers in the USA are willing to cut back on anything except petrol. This is different from the last time that we had a large run-up in fuel prices and has broader economic implications. Washington Post: Even as gas prices rattle economy, Americans can’t stay off the road

I think we've know for a pretty long time that demand for gasoline is inelastic. In fact, this is the image at the top of the first link google served me for the definition of "inelastic demand"



I'd imagine that this is especially true in the short term because the decisions that really move the needle on gas consumption are generally big financial decisions.

And the "short term" we're currently living through is one where consumers would have to pay huge premiums to reduce gas consumption by (a) purchasing different cars (new or used) to get better gas mileage or (b) purchase different homes to reduce miles driven. And many people (at least where I live in NY state) still seem to be worried enough about covid that they are still masking up in public places, so I'd imagine they wouldn't be super excited about carpooling.

If gas prices remain high and / or increase, I'd imagine that we'd see changes in demand as people make different decisions about purchasing different vehicles. I can't see too many people moving because of gas prices though. At least where I live. The housing market remains pretty insane here with very few homes on the market and sky high prices.

I agree that fuel consumption is more inelastic in the short term, but I also think there are things that consumers could be doing and aren't.

• Driving smoothly, not accelerating from every stop like a bat out of hell
• Driving the speed limit or slower on the freeway
• Avoiding long trips to far away cities by car
• Take the bus when able

I think that most consumers are simply unwilling to do these things until gas prices get high enough to reconsider their energy choices. The elasticity of demand for gas could well look like the graph below.

[GuitarStv]

I'd lump most Canadians into this basket as well.

The norm, for a very long time has been to buy a house away somewhere and then drive to work.  It's not uncommon for people I know to have an hour or more driving commute each direction into work.  At those distances you're easily talking 60 - 80 km of travel from a different city.  Which means that there's no realistic public transit option.  And it also means that folks are spread out enough that it's hard to find and organize with someone to carpool.

All these people who are working far away from their homes (and there are a LOT of them) are kinda stuck.  They need to go in to work, and they realistically only have buying gas at whatever the price to do that.  Rural living with a commute into work is looking like it's going to be a very expensive proposition.  Could be solved with WFH, or by people choosing to group more closely together into cities.  Or gas prices will rebound for a while so we can kick the can down the road for another while, making the inevitable necessary correction all the harder.  My bet's on option 3.

[cats]

When I lived in the SE, my coworkers sometimes made fun of me for driving a Corolla instead of a pick-up truck.

There are definitely areas of the US where driving a smaller car will get comments.  I periodically have to travel (in my Honda Fit) to more rural areas for my job and the folks I work with in those locations overwhelmingly drive much larger vehicles and I always get at least one remark about my "tiny car" and guys saying they "need something bigger than that to be comfortable".  Which is ridiculous because I'm a 5'9" female, I'm as tall or taller than many of these dudes.  And it's not like the Dutch are known for their huge cars.

I suspect (hope) we may start to see some behavior change later this year.  A lot of the plans for travel this summer, for example, people had probably already locked in some aspect of that before the war in Ukraine started, so they're going to push on and damn the expense.  I would guess also there is some expectation that the price increase will be temporary (once the war in Ukraine wraps up prices will come down!!) and people may therefore not be making significant behavior changes yet (esp. as households allegedly have more of a savings cushion now than they they did the last time gas prices spiked...as that savings cushion runs down, carpooling, busing, or staying home may all become more attractive).

[PDXTabs]

In summary, consumers in the USA are willing to cut back on anything except petrol. This is different from the last time that we had a large run-up in fuel prices and has broader economic implications. Washington Post: Even as gas prices rattle economy, Americans can’t stay off the road

I think we've know for a pretty long time that demand for gasoline is inelastic. In fact, this is the image at the top of the first link google served me for the definition of "inelastic demand"

Some fuel use is very inelastic. Freight rail and cargo trucks are still going to move no matter what the cost. But the article is full of people going on road trips.

[getsorted]

My own parents complain about the price of gas, but drive four blocks to the grocery store. I work with several distance cyclists who drive large SUVs a few miles to work every day. A lot of demand is inelastic, but we have a lot of weird cultural hangups around cars, too.

[Mr. Green]

Airbnb is expecting a blockbuster year, so much so that they just rolled out a big new feature to their site that allows people to munge stays at two different places together over one trip to increase the number of options available to people. There is still plenty of money in people's pockets to spend so I'm not surprised fuel use is still way up.

[jinga nation]

Was at a neighbor's home for a summer pool party this weekend; conversation on high gas prices, fuel-efficient vehicles, hybrids, electric cars. (There wasn't any political bent to the convo.)
Today, noticed a new-to-them late model Ford Expedition sitting in their driveway. My initial thought was that they are keeping overnight as part of a test drive or maybe a rental for a road trip. But then I saw my neighbor familiarizing himself with the owner's manual, he said it was replacing a 10 year old Toyota Sienna minivan (which is going to the daughter as she heads off to college in the fall).

[Sibley]

I suspect (hope) we may start to see some behavior change later this year.  A lot of the plans for travel this summer, for example, people had probably already locked in some aspect of that before the war in Ukraine started, so they're going to push on and damn the expense.

This is where I'm at. I'm not thrilled at the prospect, but I'm putting close to 2k miles on the car in about a week and half with 2 back to back trips. One has been planned for about 2 years, the other about 6 months now. Would I prefer not to pay $5 a gallon? Yes. However, I will suck it up and deal. Luckily, I have a Honda Fit which is not terrible on gas.

[FrugalToque]

Gas prices simply are not have risen far enough to make Americans reconsider their driving habits. I've noticed no change in the numbers of single-digit-mpg toy trucks on the road. The price of pickups and SUVs have not fallen drastically nor has the price for fuel efficient vehicles increased relative to the rest of the market. Unfortunately, it seems even Democrat lawmakers are afraid to let gas prices rise anywhere near high enough to account for their negative externalities.

I liked this so much I did a comparison to my first ever vehicle, a 1994-ish Pontiac Sunbird purchased in 1997, and my current 2012 Mazda 5.

1997: 54 cents/L --> 2022 dollars = 93 cents/L
Sunbird fuel efficiency 10.25L/100km  (according to the Internet)
Cost to travel 100km: $9.53

2022: $1.90/L
Mazda 5 fuel efficiency 7.3L/100km (measured, as per my driving habits)
Cost to travel 100km: $13.87

We could also compare it to a much fairer "economy car" to match the Sunbird (a Mazda 5 is a mini-minivan)
2022: $1.90L
Nissan Versa Note: 5.5L/100km (according to the Internet)
Cost to travel 100km: $10.45

No big deal, honestly.

Toque.

[maizefolk]

@SpaceCow I've never seen the data plotted that particular way (correcting for increases in fuel efficiency not just inflation). That is really cool. Thank you!

[PDXTabs]

I dug up some FRED data. In terms of the recent past transit ridership peaked May 2007 and has been declining ever since (in spite of increasing population). Also, it fell off of a cliff during the pandemic and hasn't recovered.
https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/TRANSIT

[Paper Chaser]

https://www.energy.gov/eere/vehicles/articles/fotw-1177-march-15-2021-preliminary-data-show-average-fuel-economy-new-light

Average fuel economy of the US Light Duty fleet is up to 25.7mpg in 2020 (an increase of 29% since 2005). The increasing rate of hybridization and electrification will only continue that trend.

[habanero]

I have driven electric for almost 8 years now so gas prices don't really worry me directly. Ours (Norway) are and have always been way higher than the US due to hevy taxation. But if driving was either a big thing for me or something I needed or "needed" to make everday life go around, I probably just wouldn't change behaviour. Relative to income it's a fairly minor expense anyway and the hassle involved getting around it just wouldn't be woth it. I assume that's the situation for a lot of folks. On the lower end of the income distribution it proably works out quite differently as there is limited room for increased expenses.

I generally refer to gas prices as the number that gets the most attention relative to its actual importance. For the total cost of owning a car, gas has always been a very minor part of it and that goes for most with somewhere around average milage per year (around 7500 miles / year / vehicle over here). Granted, everything related to non-electric cars is a lot more expensive here than in the US.

Last time we went to the mountain cabin we borrowed a car with an ICE engine, and admittingly I was bit surprised when I refilled the tank before returning to owner at the bill was around 120 bucks. The price was around 8.5$/gallon. But realtive to the value of spending winter holidays in the mountains it was a no-brainer.

[fuzzy math]

The absolute price is up and that's what people notice. I've seen some memes referring to prices being high in 2008, but they're actually much higher now (ignoring inflation adjustments). I was not frugal in 2008 and it didn't bother me as much then as it does now, but that's a factor of a lot of things. My commute is now $10 a day. My work gave me a shitty 2% raise last year and its 4 more months until this year's raise. etc etc. Obviously this is something that being mustachian helps with, but its still a sticker shock to fill up the van for $90 then hit Aldi and see that most of the things I buy are now up 75% from where they were pre pandemic. The gas bust in 2020 also provides a weird frame of reference, it got as low as $1.24 in my area and now its 4x that.

[force majeure]

People are assholes. The first thing you do, when gas prices are shooting up, is cut back on driving.
Maybe thats too obvious to us Mustachians.

[svosavvy]

Probably obvious, but, this is the textbook definition of an addiction.  See addiction behaviors.  This will be an intractable problem until the next best thing (Ev's on mass scale) comes along.  Enjoy the lack of "progress". JMO

[dcheesi]

People are assholes. The first thing you do, when gas prices are shooting up, is cut back on driving.
Maybe thats too obvious to us Mustachians.

As Mustachians, many of us have already taken steps to make our lives less car-dependent.

However, as has already been discussed here, most average folks would have to make major structural changes to their lives to be able to cut back significantly. If you're stuck in a car-centric suburban hellscape, there's really no option to cut back on some driving. Can't not go to work, can't not food shop (or get delivery, which just outsources gas consumption), etc.

[PDXTabs]

However, as has already been discussed here, most average folks would have to make major structural changes to their lives to be able to cut back significantly. If you're stuck in a car-centric suburban hellscape, there's really no option to cut back on some driving. Can't not go to work, can't not food shop (or get delivery, which just outsources gas consumption), etc.

The last time gas was expensive my 18 mile car commute turned into a 7 mile bike commute plus 30 minute bus commute. Oh yea, and our two driver household was a one car household and that one car was a 1991 Geo Prizm. What forum are we on again?

But if I had to strip it down as far as possible, down to just one single action, and I wasn’t allowed to talk about anything else, the choice would still be simple: “Ride a Bike”. - MMM: What Do You Mean “You Don’t Have a Bike”?!

Cars are EXCELLENT inventions for crossing remote mountain ranges and deserts and rolling country fields when travelling from one city or state to the next on a roadtrip with your family or friends. But they are STUPID for driving through your own town to get groceries – because everyone else is out there doing the thing, ruining the fun of the drive for you. - MMM: MMM Challenge: Try Getting Your Groceries with a Bike Trailer

[FrugalToque]

@SpaceCow I've never seen the data plotted that particular way (correcting for increases in fuel efficiency not just inflation). That is really cool. Thank you!

What would be great is they did a comparison of the economy end of things, so we can see how economically/ecologically wise people have benefited.

Like compare the Pontiac Acadian/Chevrolet Chevette of the 80s, through the equivalent cars in the 90s, 2000s etc. to the Honda Fit/Versa Note of today.

[YttriumNitrate]

I can't see too many people moving because of gas prices though. At least where I live. The housing market remains pretty insane here with very few homes on the market and sky high prices.

While I agree that in short term very few - if any - people would move solely due to gas prices, if prices stay elevated long enough then most people will factor them in when moving. Based on my own experience moving six years ago, when selecting a new house, proximity to a train station was one of the key things I looked for.

[YttriumNitrate]

What would be great is they did a comparison of the economy end of things, so we can see how economically/ecologically wise people have benefited. Like compare the Pontiac Acadian/Chevrolet Chevette of the 80s, through the equivalent cars in the 90s, 2000s etc. to the Honda Fit/Versa Note of today.

That would probably end up just being an inflation adjusted comparison of fuel prices. The Chevrolet Chevette was at 28 city/40 highway, and the 2022 Honda fit is at 33/40. Obviously performance and safety are going to be much better with the 2022 Honda Fit.

EDIT: If we compare low-end light trucks from the 80s vs low-end lights trucks of today, the fuel economy has actually gotten worse. Of course, the performance and safety of a Volkswagen rabbit truck are not exactly stellar by today's standards.

[mm1970]

However, as has already been discussed here, most average folks would have to make major structural changes to their lives to be able to cut back significantly. If you're stuck in a car-centric suburban hellscape, there's really no option to cut back on some driving. Can't not go to work, can't not food shop (or get delivery, which just outsources gas consumption), etc.

The last time gas was expensive my 18 mile car commute turned into a 7 mile bike commute plus 30 minute bus commute. Oh yea, and our two driver household was a one car household and that one car was a 1991 Geo Prizm. What forum are we on again?

But if I had to strip it down as far as possible, down to just one single action, and I wasn’t allowed to talk about anything else, the choice would still be simple: “Ride a Bike”. - MMM: What Do You Mean “You Don’t Have a Bike”?!

Cars are EXCELLENT inventions for crossing remote mountain ranges and deserts and rolling country fields when travelling from one city or state to the next on a roadtrip with your family or friends. But they are STUPID for driving through your own town to get groceries – because everyone else is out there doing the thing, ruining the fun of the drive for you. - MMM: MMM Challenge: Try Getting Your Groceries with a Bike Trailer

Yeah, back before I had two kids at two different schools, my husband and I worked out a schedule where we could ride our bikes the 10 miles to work, 2 days a week.  We actually work right next to each other.  So what we did back then is that one of us (me) would bike in early while he did kid dropoff.  He'd bring his bike on the back of the car and drop the car off at my office.  Then I would drive home early and pick up the kids, and he would bike home.

Anyway, we can't carpool because of staggered drop off and pick up schedules for the kids, and the inability to get the teenager to take the bus or ride a bike the 6 miles to high school.  We will work on that this summer some more.

For groceries, we almost always group that with kid dropoff/pickup.  And thanks to COVID, we can work from home. So, I had over a year of not driving.  These days, I tend to go to the office 3x a week and DH 5.  But he's been asked to WFH for 2 weeks due to a COVID outbreak at the office.  I've been WFH all this week because of a sick kid, and because our local COVID #s are high.  So why go in?  I do have to go in tomorrow (in person interview).

I can't see too many people moving because of gas prices though. At least where I live. The housing market remains pretty insane here with very few homes on the market and sky high prices.

While I agree that in short term very few - if any - people would move solely due to gas prices, if prices stay elevated long enough then most people will factor them in when moving. Based on my own experience moving six years ago, when selecting a new house, proximity to a train station was one of the key things I looked for.

Hindsight being 20/20, we would have purchased a house in the town where we work, vs where we are now, 10 miles away.  (Traffic is not bad.)  However, close enough and we could walk to work.  We are not going to move closer to work though, due to the insanely high housing costs.  I mean, we owe <$150k on our house.  A house closer to work that is a 3/2, 1400 sf, bottom of the housing market just sold yesterday for $1.8M.  I don't need those kinds of mortgage + prop taxes payments.  Plus we are in our 50s and will be retiring when DS#2 finishes college in (hopefully) 2034.  (When we bought our house, DH worked somewhere else and we intentionally bought between our 2 offices so we could both bike to work.)

[Michael in ABQ]

Gas can hit $10 a gallon and we're still going to have to drive our kids to school and into work. The school we've chosen is on the other side of the city in a semi-rural area. Homes are significantly more expensive there and rentals are almost nonexistent. Until we can buy or rent a house closer our only option is to drive (can't really find someone to carpool with five kids).



A guy I work with in the National Guard drives big jacked-up pickup truck with a bunch of bells and whistles. He got a law enforcement discount, and it was only $83,000. So even with diesel at $5+ per gallon the fact that he's spending a couple hundred more per month in fuel pales in comparison to the cost of the vehicle.

[Just Joe]

However, as has already been discussed here, most average folks would have to make major structural changes to their lives to be able to cut back significantly. If you're stuck in a car-centric suburban hellscape, there's really no option to cut back on some driving. Can't not go to work, can't not food shop (or get delivery, which just outsources gas consumption), etc.

Shoot, our friend group is driving far more than back and forth to work. Some of them seem to be looking for frequent entertainment destinations in a 100 mile radius of home. Run across town for take out, to the next county to visit, or the next big metro city for a day trip.

We've had to talk to our teen who is on the cusp of driving too this week or next. A trip across town and back is $5-$10 of gas in their old hand me down car on top of whatever drive-through food they are going for. They have friends who even in their mid-teens are big spenders. $7 coffee treat just for fun before a $12 movie.

Our teen does not have an endless supply of $20 dollar bills and neither do we. Maybe their parents are cushioning it all with credit card debt?

[big_owl]

Honda recently brought back the Monkey, CT125, and Super Cub 125.  All get 100mpg and will do 50mph easy, have bullet proof simple engines and can be completely rebuilt over a long weekend.  Plus they're a steal.  As long as there ain't snow on the ground there are plenty of cheap options for in-city and near-suburb commutes, 100's of millions of people ride these things around the world daily.  Clearly the pain isn't that high yet. 

[Jon Bon]

God help us if people go back into the office. I always wonder why people put up with 75 mile commutes every day. I am firmly in the camp of buy the expensive house close to everything, and never commute. Different strokes for different folks I guess.

Not to mention you have the biggest state in the union talking about giving people $ rebates to purchase more gas. Which is the worst of both worlds. It will increase demand for gas, and increase the money supply (inflation), so everyone loses.....

[JLee]

God help us if people go back into the office. I always wonder why people put up with 75 mile commutes every day. I am firmly in the camp of buy the expensive house close to everything, and never commute. Different strokes for different folks I guess.

Not to mention you have the biggest state in the union talking about giving people $ rebates to purchase more gas. Which is the worst of both worlds. It will increase demand for gas, and increase the money supply (inflation), so everyone loses.....

Sometimes people change jobs, and sometimes that's not in the same place as the old job.  Moving is expensive and complicated, especially if you own a house and have other household members to consider.

[PDXTabs]

God help us if people go back into the office. I always wonder why people put up with 75 mile commutes every day. I am firmly in the camp of buy the expensive house close to everything, and never commute. Different strokes for different folks I guess.

Not to mention you have the biggest state in the union talking about giving people $ rebates to purchase more gas. Which is the worst of both worlds. It will increase demand for gas, and increase the money supply (inflation), so everyone loses.....

Sometimes people change jobs, and sometimes that's not in the same place as the old job.  Moving is expensive and complicated, especially if you own a house and have other household members to consider.

I'm all over this forum saying that buying a house in your working years is a bad idea. Economists who write about economic mobility tend to agree. Driving 75 miles to get to work is not normal and the only place anywhere on the planet where anyone thinks it is normal is North America. Do stupid stuff, get stupid results.

Along those lines I once rented a room by my work because it was cheaper than commuting. I drove to work on Monday and "home" on Friday. It worked great but obviously wouldn't work for everyone.

[JLee]

God help us if people go back into the office. I always wonder why people put up with 75 mile commutes every day. I am firmly in the camp of buy the expensive house close to everything, and never commute. Different strokes for different folks I guess.

Not to mention you have the biggest state in the union talking about giving people $ rebates to purchase more gas. Which is the worst of both worlds. It will increase demand for gas, and increase the money supply (inflation), so everyone loses.....

Sometimes people change jobs, and sometimes that's not in the same place as the old job.  Moving is expensive and complicated, especially if you own a house and have other household members to consider.

I'm all over this forum saying that buying a house in your working years is a bad idea. Economists who write about economic mobility tend to agree. Driving 75 miles to get to work is not normal and the only place anywhere on the planet where anyone thinks it is normal is North America. Do stupid stuff, get stupid results.

Along those lines I once rented a room by my work because it was cheaper than commuting. I drove to work on Monday and "home" on Friday. It worked great but obviously wouldn't work for everyone.

My point is it's not as simple as "move closer to work" when you have more than yourself to think about.

[maizefolk]

Not to mention you have the biggest state in the union talking about giving people $ rebates to purchase more gas. Which is the worst of both worlds. It will increase demand for gas, and increase the money supply (inflation), so everyone loses.....

I agree this is an incredibly stupid thing for California to be contemplating for lots of reasons particularly in a state trying to get people off of gasoline to begin with.

However, I don't think their rebate actually increases the money supply since California cannot print money, nor is the fed buying California's bonds. The rebate will get paid either from tax revenue (no new money created), borrowing from the private sector (no new money created), or via recovery act funds provided by the federal government (which may ultimately represent newly created money but the states were gonna spend it all one way or another so the rebate doesn't INCREASE money creation).

[PDXTabs]

My point is it's not as simple as "move closer to work" when you have more than yourself to think about.

My point is that there are jobs that are close enough for you to take, and jobs that aren't. Only in North America would a 75 mile driving commute be considered "close enough." If Americans have to live like the other seven billion people on the planet I will shed zero tears.

[mm1970]

God help us if people go back into the office. I always wonder why people put up with 75 mile commutes every day. I am firmly in the camp of buy the expensive house close to everything, and never commute. Different strokes for different folks I guess.

Not to mention you have the biggest state in the union talking about giving people $ rebates to purchase more gas. Which is the worst of both worlds. It will increase demand for gas, and increase the money supply (inflation), so everyone loses.....

Sometimes people change jobs, and sometimes that's not in the same place as the old job.  Moving is expensive and complicated, especially if you own a house and have other household members to consider.

I'm all over this forum saying that buying a house in your working years is a bad idea. Economists who write about economic mobility tend to agree. Driving 75 miles to get to work is not normal and the only place anywhere on the planet where anyone thinks it is normal is North America. Do stupid stuff, get stupid results.

Along those lines I once rented a room by my work because it was cheaper than commuting. I drove to work on Monday and "home" on Friday. It worked great but obviously wouldn't work for everyone.

That really depends.  There are places where it's cheaper to own than rent.

And also, ask my friends who now have to move for the 3rd time in 3 years (because their landlords are cashing out and selling), how much they love moving their kids every year...they are just lucky that they don't have to change schools because we have open transfers.  If they were in the town next door, every move would come with a new school.

[PDXTabs]

I'm all over this forum saying that buying a house in your working years is a bad idea. Economists who write about economic mobility tend to agree. Driving 75 miles to get to work is not normal and the only place anywhere on the planet where anyone thinks it is normal is North America. Do stupid stuff, get stupid results.

Along those lines I once rented a room by my work because it was cheaper than commuting. I drove to work on Monday and "home" on Friday. It worked great but obviously wouldn't work for everyone.

That really depends.  There are places where it's cheaper to own than rent.

And also, ask my friends who now have to move for the 3rd time in 3 years (because their landlords are cashing out and selling), how much they love moving their kids every year...they are just lucky that they don't have to change schools because we have open transfers.  If they were in the town next door, every move would come with a new school.

There are surely places that are cheaper to buy than rent. But if you are in one of those places then you already got paid. You don't have to tell me how much it sucks to move (I just moved). Maybe I'm just lucky but I've never had a landlord force me to move. I have however twice had life situations force me to move from the house that I owned.

[JLee]

I'm all over this forum saying that buying a house in your working years is a bad idea. Economists who write about economic mobility tend to agree. Driving 75 miles to get to work is not normal and the only place anywhere on the planet where anyone thinks it is normal is North America. Do stupid stuff, get stupid results.

Along those lines I once rented a room by my work because it was cheaper than commuting. I drove to work on Monday and "home" on Friday. It worked great but obviously wouldn't work for everyone.

That really depends.  There are places where it's cheaper to own than rent.

And also, ask my friends who now have to move for the 3rd time in 3 years (because their landlords are cashing out and selling), how much they love moving their kids every year...they are just lucky that they don't have to change schools because we have open transfers.  If they were in the town next door, every move would come with a new school.

There are surely places that are cheaper to buy than rent. But if you are in one of those places then you already got paid. You don't have to tell me how much it sucks to move (I just moved). Maybe I'm just lucky but I've never had a landlord force me to move. I have however twice had life situations force me to move from the house that I owned.

In 2018, I sold my house that I was renting and the tenants had to move.  Right around the same time, close friends had to move because their landlord sold their house.  Right after I bought my house, the owners of the place I had been renting sold the place I was living in.

Hurray anecdotes? 

[PDXTabs]

I'm all over this forum saying that buying a house in your working years is a bad idea. Economists who write about economic mobility tend to agree.

Hurray anecdotes?

Fair enough. Although there is some debate as to the impact of home ownership there is ongoing research on its impact to the labor market. This was in the news during the great recession, but the research has continued.

We show that rises in home-ownership lead to three problems: (i) lower levels of labor mobility, (ii) greater commuting times, and (iii) fewer new businesses. - NEBR: Does High Home-ownership Impair the Labor Market?

You can own your own home during your working career if you want, I can't stop you. I've owned two homes myself. But I don't go around telling people that it is a good idea.

[simonsez]

People are assholes. The first thing you do, when gas prices are shooting up, is cut back on driving.
Maybe thats too obvious to us Mustachians.

@force majeure Asshole here.  I've had a Memorial Day weekend trip planned to the family lakehouse for months.  I still plan on going.  I'm not canceling because I could save a tank's worth of gasoline or because a tank is $20 more than it was at some nebulous point in the past.  As has been stated, gas has been more expensive in this country in the past in real terms and gas is still cheap compared to other developed countries.  There are many things to celebrate in life (e.g. my mom's retirement starting tomorrow and continuing the celebration at the lakehouse, seeing cousins that we haven't seen since pre-pandemic) - many of life's celebrations are worth more (to me, at least) than the cost of gasoline to drive you there.  To each asshole their own asshole but I think I'd rather go and be viewed as an asshole anti-mustachian or whatever anonymously online rather than being an actual asshole and canceling and telling my family that saving a few bucks on gas is more important than seeing them and celebrating with them.  Outside of that, I work from home and made a conscious decision to live near multiple grocery stores and other amenities.  My personal amount of driving has not changed in years regardless of the price at the pump, but then again, I guess that's due to being an asshole but I digress.