Author Topic: Wow - advice for artists  (Read 10624 times)

frugaldrummer

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Wow - advice for artists
« on: July 31, 2014, 04:19:02 PM »
I follow a great Facebook photo blog called Humans of New York.  Photos of random people on the streets of New York and snippets of interviews with them.  One today was a guy who said the following:

"“It seems that the more I tried to make my life about the pursuit of art, the more money controlled my life: collecting unemployment insurance, the humiliation of borrowing money from friends and family, tossing and turning at night while trying to figure out how to pay the rent. To survive I had to work hard jobs and afterwards I’d feel too tired and too stressed to paint. It’s very hard to create under those circumstances. Creativity is a delicate process. Often times I wonder if I should have just pursued a career for the first half of my life, obtained some degree of financial security, and then transitioned into art.”"

A Mustachian concept that I have often thought about in regards to my poor artsy musician type friends - if only they had worked hard and put away a few dollars in their 20's, they would be much more free now to pursue their art.

Ian

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Re: Wow - advice for artists
« Reply #1 on: July 31, 2014, 04:54:01 PM »
I agree these principles have a lot to offer artists of many kinds. Most arts produce very unreliable income streams, even if you attain relatively high levels of success. Having a solid financial foundation can make your creative earnings not something to stretch to make ends meet, but additional bricks getting you closer to being able to devote yourself fully to your work.

Since I'm very early in this process, I can't state this too adamantly, but I do think the ideas are sound. Maybe in 10 years I'll be able to speak with a little more authority.

Daisy

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Re: Wow - advice for artists
« Reply #2 on: July 31, 2014, 08:28:41 PM »
I think this is sound advice. I've only come to realize this as I get older.

I am no accomplished artist by any means, but I have in the past few years tried to take some classes here and there for my personal enjoyment and fulfillment. I took classes when I was younger. My recent push started when I was unemployed for a while and decided to use the time to take a class I always wanted to take. I had time to practice between classes and really liked it. After getting re-employed, I took a couple of other classes but found I didn't have time to practice in between, so it became frustrating.

I hope to enter FIRE soon. Then I can take more art and music classes and practice more. I relish my unstructured time so much - but have it in rarity while full-time employed, trying to stay in good health by exercising and cooking, social life, family life, etc. So this idea of getting financially independent first and then pursuing your creative interests is a solid plan.

That, and outgrowing my current career, are some of the main drivers for FIRE for me. I'm not sure if I'd ever make money off of the art, but I harbor a secret desire to travel the country and present some work in art festivals and make a little pocket change if I come up with anything desirable. But even if it's just for my personal creative growth - that alone would be success.

expatartist

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Re: Wow - advice for artists
« Reply #3 on: July 31, 2014, 11:14:29 PM »
Yes! Agree 100%.
There are many anti-$ messages in the arts. The hypocrisy is astounding. The romantic idea that poverty makes you sharper, that you don't do it for $, that making a creative living = selling out...

The challenge to switching to art after focusing on an earlier career - if they mean contemporary fine arts where your work is bought by collectors rather than more decorative arts - is, mid-career will be too late. You need to be making work consistently through your 20s and beyond. However, most artists need to work some day job. Some of the happiest and well-balanced (if not most successful) artists I've met have dayjobs which have nothing to do with art. They make their work at night, and on weekends. They also tend not to have families or other demands besides their art.

Nords

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Re: Wow - advice for artists
« Reply #4 on: July 31, 2014, 11:43:32 PM »
"“It seems that the more I tried to make my life about the pursuit of art, the more money controlled my life: collecting unemployment insurance, the humiliation of borrowing money from friends and family, tossing and turning at night while trying to figure out how to pay the rent. To survive I had to work hard jobs and afterwards I’d feel too tired and too stressed to paint. It’s very hard to create under those circumstances. Creativity is a delicate process. Often times I wonder if I should have just pursued a career for the first half of my life, obtained some degree of financial security, and then transitioned into art.”"
A friend on another forum says "Playing jazz is a career you have to save up for."

But I have to wonder:  if a hard job leaves someone too tired and stressed to paint, then perhaps they're not an artist after all.

expatartist

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Re: Wow - advice for artists
« Reply #5 on: August 01, 2014, 12:25:36 AM »
"“To survive I had to work hard jobs and afterwards I’d feel too tired and too stressed to paint. It’s very hard to create under those circumstances. Creativity is a delicate process. Often times I wonder if I should have just pursued a career for the first half of my life, obtained some degree of financial security, and then transitioned into art.”"
A friend on another forum says "Playing jazz is a career you have to save up for."

But I have to wonder:  if a hard job leaves someone too tired and stressed to paint, then perhaps they're not an artist after all.

Thanks, Nords, hadn't noticed that. Looks like complainypants excuses to me.
You don't 'transition into art'. You make it. Period.

Daisy

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Re: Wow - advice for artists
« Reply #6 on: August 05, 2014, 12:48:16 AM »
"“It seems that the more I tried to make my life about the pursuit of art, the more money controlled my life: collecting unemployment insurance, the humiliation of borrowing money from friends and family, tossing and turning at night while trying to figure out how to pay the rent. To survive I had to work hard jobs and afterwards I’d feel too tired and too stressed to paint. It’s very hard to create under those circumstances. Creativity is a delicate process. Often times I wonder if I should have just pursued a career for the first half of my life, obtained some degree of financial security, and then transitioned into art.”"
A friend on another forum says "Playing jazz is a career you have to save up for."

But I have to wonder:  if a hard job leaves someone too tired and stressed to paint, then perhaps they're not an artist after all.

I'm just a newbie/rookie/wanna-be just learning a lot of the basic techniques, but I find I need the stretches of unstructured time just to get things done. But that's probably more to do with my personality as I have trouble concentrating in small spurts and if you just give me a half hour or an hour to try to do something creative, I'd probably blow it off and goof off instead if I know I won't get very far. I'm pretty good at the day dreaming and losing track of time.

Maybe someone more established and with perfected technique can easily enter this creative mode and just chug away at their art and then go fix the evening's dinner followed by folding laundry while getting ready for bed for the long commute and the 9-5 grind and the commute back the next day.

I'm kind of slow at a lot of stuff though, so it's probably just me.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2014, 12:51:50 AM by Daisy »

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Re: Wow - advice for artists
« Reply #7 on: August 05, 2014, 03:42:28 AM »
A friend on another forum says "Playing jazz is a career you have to save up for."

But I have to wonder:  if a hard job leaves someone too tired and stressed to paint, then perhaps they're not an artist after all.

Dunno about artists as in painters, but I know that if I have had a stressful day at work, it is MUCH more difficult for me to write well.  Not impossible, just difficult. So I make time to decompress before I even start writing.  It helps tremendously.

ender

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Re: Wow - advice for artists
« Reply #8 on: August 05, 2014, 05:54:24 AM »
In high school, I chose to pursue engineering instead of the arts (music) because it would be far easier to:

  • Switch from engineering to the arts than vice versa
  • Incorporate the arts into my life as an engineer

This has been my experience 100%. I listen to music on pretty nice speakers, play piano for fun, build models/etc, and have volunteered at both my church as well as a concert venue running stage lighting.

This adds the music into my life in a satisfactory way without killing me financially. It was a wonderful choice for me and one I would make again in a heartbeat.

GuitarStv

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Re: Wow - advice for artists
« Reply #9 on: August 05, 2014, 06:01:18 AM »
"“It seems that the more I tried to make my life about the pursuit of art, the more money controlled my life: collecting unemployment insurance, the humiliation of borrowing money from friends and family, tossing and turning at night while trying to figure out how to pay the rent. To survive I had to work hard jobs and afterwards I’d feel too tired and too stressed to paint. It’s very hard to create under those circumstances. Creativity is a delicate process. Often times I wonder if I should have just pursued a career for the first half of my life, obtained some degree of financial security, and then transitioned into art.”"
A friend on another forum says "Playing jazz is a career you have to save up for."

But I have to wonder:  if a hard job leaves someone too tired and stressed to paint, then perhaps they're not an artist after all.



Q - What's the difference between playing a jazz gig and a cover gig on guitar at a bar?

A - The cover guitarist plays three chords to 1000 people a night, the jazz guy plays 1000 chords to three people a night.


:P

Cwadda

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Re: Wow - advice for artists
« Reply #10 on: August 05, 2014, 06:03:47 AM »
In high school, I chose to pursue engineering instead of the arts (music) because it would be far easier to:

  • Switch from engineering to the arts than vice versa
  • Incorporate the arts into my life as an engineer

This has been my experience 100%. I listen to music on pretty nice speakers, play piano for fun, build models/etc, and have volunteered at both my church as well as a concert venue running stage lighting.

This adds the music into my life in a satisfactory way without killing me financially. It was a wonderful choice for me and one I would make again in a heartbeat.

Me too! Going for a career in the physical sciences rather than the arts, but having a musical outlet is a major part of my life.

Adventine

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Re: Wow - advice for artists
« Reply #11 on: August 05, 2014, 06:18:32 AM »
Out of all the Humans of New York posts I've seen (and I see a veritable flood on my Facebook timeline), this is the first one I've found worth sharing myself. Thanks.

MoneyCat

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Re: Wow - advice for artists
« Reply #12 on: August 05, 2014, 06:59:42 AM »
All the young people I know who live as artists are all trust fund babies.  The older people I know who live as artists are retirees from other occupations.  This "Human of New York" is absolutely correct.  If people want to make art as a living, then they probably need to work another career first.  The age of artists working under the patronage of wealthy nobles so they can make art full-time is long behind us.

Ynari

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Re: Wow - advice for artists
« Reply #13 on: August 05, 2014, 08:45:41 AM »
This is an interesting post for me to see.  I have the potential to go into performance (Circus arts, as in Cirque du Soleil, just probably a bit lower level).  I keep thinking "How can I waste my early 20s?  If I work until I'm 26, I could be financially sound, but then I've lost 5 of the best years! ...right?"

But then I think about my instructors - their average age is probably around 40.  Most still perform in the studio's big and small shwos.  The owner (in her 30s) just had a baby and is already back performing.  My contortion instructor has 50 years of experience and still teaches - that's part of what makes her so good.  At the circus festival last winter, I saw a great couple that looked like they were around 40 and their performance was one of my favorites.

Sure, if you're Cirque du Soleil level, you probably want to start yesterday.  But if I intend to perform a little and wouldn't mind teaching as the end result?  Why shouldn't I wait for security?

I can imagine that the same goes for art.  Maybe the "young and starving" culture is more pervasive, but that doesn't mean success is any less attainable if you put it on simmer for a few years.

sheepstache

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Re: Wow - advice for artists
« Reply #14 on: August 05, 2014, 10:01:10 AM »
We can't talk about the arts as one undifferentiated field.  Can you do a full time job then go home and work on your art?  The answer is it depends.  Art is a job.  It's not like surfing :)  If you're a musician, you have to practice at least several hours a day.  You work til five, then you rehearse, then you're running late to your gig, it's a full day and you didn't get time to rehearse with your ensemble or write any original stuff or do advertising or networking for your next gig, etc.  No one here would like to do their job for 16 hours a day because humans need downtime.  If you think of art as downtime, then maybe you're not an artist.

For physical things, I don't see how you can wait.  You can't become a ballet dancer starting in your 30s.  Not one who's going to reach their full potential at any rate.  Obviously instructors are older.  But that's basically semi-retirement.  And they got those jobs partially based on their accomplishments when they were younger.

Of course, you don't have to reach the top of your field or your full potential to be happy and many people can't admit this.  For example, there's a lot of regional theater where professionals can make a living.  But sometimes they convince themselves they have to do it in New York or it's not "real."  So they'd rather wait tables in New York and get the occasional bit part than get steady work doing what they love in Kansas City.  Silly. 

I do agree with all those saying artists seem to think they need to suffer for their art or they're not authentic.  Or that artists are terrible with money.  With this guy on HONY, I notice he says he had to work 'hard jobs,' but there's no rule that you says you have to wait until you're desperate and then take what you can get.  I think that's the lesson he's trying to get across, that you can't just assume the money will take care of itself.  You can set yourself up to be materially better off if you just don't shy away from thinking about it.  For example, many musicians are trying to "make it" but they also make the right connections to get teaching jobs so they've got something that pays better than waiting tables or being moving men.  They usually could get even better jobs if they were willing to give up the flexibility to pursue performance, but that's their sacrifice, not starving.  And don't even get me started on freelancers who blow surpluses as they come.  It's wonderful to see artists who have the financial savvy to stay in the game and I hope this guy's message in some small way helps create more of them.

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Re: Wow - advice for artists
« Reply #15 on: August 05, 2014, 10:08:50 AM »
I buy the occasional piece of original art.  I've seen a couple of artists whose work I like who started painting seriously after they retired from the day job, and it would be possible to put together an interesting collection based on artists like this.

Quite often the art of the young in college/just out of college isn't so interesting to me - I sometimes go to shows in the thought of perhaps supporting someone just starting out  (or getting in on the ground floor of someone who is going to be great) but just don't see something I like enough to put money down for it.

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Re: Wow - advice for artists
« Reply #16 on: August 05, 2014, 10:37:53 AM »
I have a few art acquaintances.
A classical flutist(?) who recorded and sold works while working a different occupation full time. He has retired and currently works with other musicians self-recording and selling online.
A couple who teach other subjects full time and create metal works evenings and weekends which they sell at art festivals.
A person who sells her own creations, sells other artist works in her shop and teaches art in her studio.
A person who produces musicals.
A person who specifically focuses on occasion performances.
A cellist who performs with the symphony. She makes most of her money giving lessons.

Personally I recycle the wood in old furniture into cigar box guitars etc... I'm not planning to make a living from it. Nice stress reducing hobby.

The artist making steady bank seem to be those who concentrate first on creating a passive income from art, before pursuing their own vision. As I recall the Wheel of Fortune theme song earned 70-80 million in royalties. Not trying to be an A****, but does elevator music still sell?

hybrid

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Re: Wow - advice for artists
« Reply #17 on: August 05, 2014, 10:43:25 AM »
"“It seems that the more I tried to make my life about the pursuit of art, the more money controlled my life: collecting unemployment insurance, the humiliation of borrowing money from friends and family, tossing and turning at night while trying to figure out how to pay the rent. To survive I had to work hard jobs and afterwards I’d feel too tired and too stressed to paint. It’s very hard to create under those circumstances. Creativity is a delicate process. Often times I wonder if I should have just pursued a career for the first half of my life, obtained some degree of financial security, and then transitioned into art.”"
A friend on another forum says "Playing jazz is a career you have to save up for."

But I have to wonder:  if a hard job leaves someone too tired and stressed to paint, then perhaps they're not an artist after all.

I could see it. I'm reminded of the title character in Martin Eden who at one point in his struggle to become a successful writer works grueling hours at a laundry. By the time his work week is finished, he is simply too tired to pursue other things and ends up getting drunk with the locals instead. He has to give up the laundry work and get by on next to nothing to devote himself to his writing. I had similar hours once and by the end of the work day there was just nothing left in the tank, and I was only twenty-four at the time. I was thirty-two when I read Martin Eden, and by that point I knew full well what that level of physical and mental exhaustion Jack London was describing felt like. At the end of the day you are just done.

« Last Edit: August 05, 2014, 10:51:14 AM by hybrid »

hybrid

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Re: Wow - advice for artists
« Reply #18 on: August 05, 2014, 10:49:52 AM »
When I saw this thread I thought the advice was going to be along the lines of "don't waste 100K getting a worthless art degree". VCU is one of the very best art schools on the East Coast, and we see a lot of starving artists waiting tables around here.

My mother graduated with a degree in art from RPI (which became VCU), she would be the first to say don't get one today. In the early 60s a liberal arts degree held more value than today, and she was able to get a job as a social worker in part because she had earned a generic BA. I don't think the same would apply today, a generic BA is a fairly common commodity now.

Chrissy

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Re: Wow - advice for artists
« Reply #19 on: August 05, 2014, 11:38:58 AM »
...if only they had worked hard and put away a few dollars in their 20's, they would be much more free now to pursue their art.

If they'd worked hard at being artists and put away a few dollars in their 20s, they would be artists now.  If they worked hard at being accountants and put away a few dollars in their 20s, they would've found excellence and stability in that field, and not pine for life as artists.  It sounds like your musician friends have a lack of work-ethic combined with a regrettable overabundance of talent.  I've seen this many, many times.

Professional artists support themselves through their art, and make choices that help them do that; anyone else is a hobbyist... and that's great, people should be well-rounded!  However, an accountant who wants to be a nurse doesn't tell her tax clients, "I'm really a nurse.  This is just my day job."  In the same way, there is no such thing as an actor who has a day job as a barista.  There's just a barista who wants to be an actor, but isn't one... yet.

I've been a successful, professional performing artist since I got out of college, working with other successful, professional artists of both the performing and visual variety.  I've never known anyone with a trust fund, just people with talent coming out their ears who work like dogs.  Most of us are married to other successful, professional artists.  Most of us own our homes.  Most of us have children and pets.  We keep within our own social circle, since we come up against amazing assumptions and prejudice from civilians who think what we do is frivolous, easy, and overpaid, and that we're all pro-union Democrat atheists.  (The stories I have from my own family and first dates would make your hair curl.)

The people in my company--which offers an FSA and a 403b--range from lower-middle class to multimillionaires.  We have health insurance and pensions through our unions.  Some of us middle-class types will have great retirements, and some of us multimillionaires will be impoverished a year after we stop working... just like people in "normal" industries.

That's really my point:  artists have the same foibles as the general population.  Many lack drive and/or financial sense.  For people whose job it is to be creative, some artists are amazingly unwilling to think outside the box.  They're often more resistant to diversifying their primary asset--their career--than civilians.

While artists have the same foibles at the same percentage as "normal" folk, there's no room for normal folk to be professional artists, there's only room for those with the most talent.  Not only that, there's only room for the most talented WITH cutthroat ambition.  Successful artists attend auditions and interviews, and also look for a back-door way to land a gig (any other job in the building even if it's as a security guard), go over their address book looking for a connection, and scheme ways to get themselves into a social situation with the people in power.  They sell their cars, go without cable, and sleep on a friend's couch for three months to save the rent in order to do the low paying gigs that will further their careers.  Being a professional artist is not an impossible, impracticable dream, but you have to be willing to do what it takes, and most people just aren't willing.

Universities pay me to give advice on "how to make it in the arts".  Know what it is?  Work hard and be a good person.

To freznow:  the time to pursue circus arts is always NOW; athletic endeavors are for the young.  A for-profit like Blue Man or Cirque probably has a 401k; be sure you're in a position to take advantage.  Watch your pennies, and save up for the transition all dancers/acrobats make in their 40s.  Why, you can't throw a rock without hitting a "Career Transition for Dancers" seminar through Actors' Equity or AGMA.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2014, 11:48:08 AM by Chrissy »

Nords

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Re: Wow - advice for artists
« Reply #20 on: August 05, 2014, 12:12:53 PM »
Dunno about artists as in painters, but I know that if I have had a stressful day at work, it is MUCH more difficult for me to write well.  Not impossible, just difficult. So I make time to decompress before I even start writing.  It helps tremendously.
When I have a stressful day, I relieve it by writing.  In fact I used to have a Navy staff job that mostly involved writing point papers for 12-14 hours/day, but when I came home I'd have to write about something else to relax.

Same thing today-- I'm writing for several hours each day, but my real challenge is focusing on a productive writing task instead of on... oh, for example... Internet forums. 

I could see it. I'm reminded of the title character in Martin Eden who at one point in his struggle to become a successful writer works grueling hours at a laundry. By the time his work week is finished, he is simply too tired to pursue other things and ends up getting drunk with the locals instead. He has to give up the laundry work and get by on next to nothing to devote himself to his writing. I had similar hours once and by the end of the work day there was just nothing left in the tank, and I was only twenty-four at the time. I was thirty-two when I read Martin Eden, and by that point I knew full well what that level of physical and mental exhaustion Jack London was describing felt like. At the end of the day you are just done.
Heh-- Stephen King was working at a laundry facility while he was writing "Carrie".  Of course he quit that job once he cashed the check on the book contract, but he somehow managed to balance the laundry job and raising his family with writing a best-selling novel.

Writers... write.  Erma Bombeck used to claim that they cannot NOT write.

Daleth

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Re: Wow - advice for artists
« Reply #21 on: August 05, 2014, 12:22:52 PM »
In case anyone's interested, there's a book that's written for activists but is also (and it says so right in the intro) for artists--it's great advice about how to structure your life such that you're supporting yourself, not hurting for money and not burning yourself out. Here's a link:
http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/the-lifelong-activist-hillary-rettig/1114295336?ean=9781590560907

sheepstache

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Re: Wow - advice for artists
« Reply #22 on: August 05, 2014, 12:29:23 PM »
I could see it. I'm reminded of the title character in Martin Eden who at one point in his struggle to become a successful writer works grueling hours at a laundry. By the time his work week is finished, he is simply too tired to pursue other things and ends up getting drunk with the locals instead. He has to give up the laundry work and get by on next to nothing to devote himself to his writing. I had similar hours once and by the end of the work day there was just nothing left in the tank, and I was only twenty-four at the time. I was thirty-two when I read Martin Eden, and by that point I knew full well what that level of physical and mental exhaustion Jack London was describing felt like. At the end of the day you are just done.
Heh-- Stephen King was working at a laundry facility while he was writing "Carrie".  Of course he quit that job once he cashed the check on the book contract, but he somehow managed to balance the laundry job and raising his family with writing a best-selling novel..

To be fair, laundry technology came a long way between 1908 and 1973.

sheepstache

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Re: Wow - advice for artists
« Reply #23 on: August 05, 2014, 12:30:09 PM »

hybrid

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Re: Wow - advice for artists
« Reply #24 on: August 05, 2014, 02:06:34 PM »
I could see it. I'm reminded of the title character in Martin Eden who at one point in his struggle to become a successful writer works grueling hours at a laundry. By the time his work week is finished, he is simply too tired to pursue other things and ends up getting drunk with the locals instead. He has to give up the laundry work and get by on next to nothing to devote himself to his writing. I had similar hours once and by the end of the work day there was just nothing left in the tank, and I was only twenty-four at the time. I was thirty-two when I read Martin Eden, and by that point I knew full well what that level of physical and mental exhaustion Jack London was describing felt like. At the end of the day you are just done.
Heh-- Stephen King was working at a laundry facility while he was writing "Carrie".  Of course he quit that job once he cashed the check on the book contract, but he somehow managed to balance the laundry job and raising his family with writing a best-selling novel..

To be fair, laundry technology came a long way between 1908 and 1973.

And for every one Stephen King.... You know the rest.

Ynari

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Re: Wow - advice for artists
« Reply #25 on: August 05, 2014, 05:14:23 PM »
To freznow:  the time to pursue circus arts is always NOW; athletic endeavors are for the young.  A for-profit like Blue Man or Cirque probably has a 401k; be sure you're in a position to take advantage.  Watch your pennies, and save up for the transition all dancers/acrobats make in their 40s.  Why, you can't throw a rock without hitting a "Career Transition for Dancers" seminar through Actors' Equity or AGMA.

I thank you for the advice, but I have to disagree.  I do think the time for circus is always now - as in, there's never a bad time to do circus, whether you're 5 years old, 20, or 60.  Too often it comes across as "now or never", and I think that's discouragingly pessimistic.

http://xkcd.com/447/  This "now or never" phenomenon applies to more than just athletic endeavors.  This XKCD is about math...  and I felt that way about math when I was in high school.  Like I wasn't innovative enough and therefore I'd peaked.  It's a sucky feeling and I would have probably enjoyed theoretical math more had I not gotten the impression when I was 13 that if I hadn't won a national math or science competition by then, I never would.

I don't think ANYTHING in the long run is "now or never".  I know for a fact I would be as good a performer in 5 years as I would be today.  Part of that is because I didn't do dance or gymnastics in my youth, so I'm relying on training at an adult-directed circus studio to get me there, and I don't necessarily have targets set on a risky rock-star goal like Cirque du Soleil.  Part of it is that circus (at least, the circus I do) isn't detrimental to your body if you are careful.  Maybe some athletic pursuits have an expiration date because of accumulated harm (i.e. ballet on the bones and joints, many competitive sports through collisions.) but most forms of art don't have that sort of ending point.

It's frustrating to be told when you're younger that you aren't old enough to do anything, and when you're older that you missed the boat and can't ever start learning. 

Tyler

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Re: Wow - advice for artists
« Reply #26 on: August 05, 2014, 09:12:28 PM »
But I have to wonder:  if a hard job leaves someone too tired and stressed to paint, then perhaps they're not an artist after all.

I sometimes feel like I'm an artist that fell into an engineering career.  When that happens, you get an Industrial Designer.  I'm too tired to paint like I used to because I spend all my energy creating compelling and beautiful products.  The creative drive is constant, but the environment shapes the output. 

I have a space dedicated to painting that I haven't touched in a while.  But I keep it there to remind me of where I came from and and where I'd like to return. 


Nords

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Re: Wow - advice for artists
« Reply #27 on: August 05, 2014, 09:39:09 PM »
The creative drive is constant, but the environment shapes the output. 
Very well said-- and that sounds so much better than what people usually tell me:  "You need to focus"...

oldtoyota

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Re: Wow - advice for artists
« Reply #28 on: August 05, 2014, 10:41:10 PM »
"“It seems that the more I tried to make my life about the pursuit of art, the more money controlled my life: collecting unemployment insurance, the humiliation of borrowing money from friends and family, tossing and turning at night while trying to figure out how to pay the rent. To survive I had to work hard jobs and afterwards I’d feel too tired and too stressed to paint. It’s very hard to create under those circumstances. Creativity is a delicate process. Often times I wonder if I should have just pursued a career for the first half of my life, obtained some degree of financial security, and then transitioned into art.”"
A friend on another forum says "Playing jazz is a career you have to save up for."

But I have to wonder:  if a hard job leaves someone too tired and stressed to paint, then perhaps they're not an artist after all.

I'm just a newbie/rookie/wanna-be just learning a lot of the basic techniques, but I find I need the stretches of unstructured time just to get things done. But that's probably more to do with my personality as I have trouble concentrating in small spurts and if you just give me a half hour or an hour to try to do something creative, I'd probably blow it off and goof off instead if I know I won't get very far. I'm pretty good at the day dreaming and losing track of time.

Maybe someone more established and with perfected technique can easily enter this creative mode and just chug away at their art and then go fix the evening's dinner followed by folding laundry while getting ready for bed for the long commute and the 9-5 grind and the commute back the next day.

I'm kind of slow at a lot of stuff though, so it's probably just me.

I agree with you. Art is a job. Who wants to work a job all day and the come home and work another job? The comment about someone not being an artist if they are too tired/stressed to paint sounds like it comes from someone who doesn't create art.

It's not just you. There's value in having the time and mental space to create. That's why people created artist residencies.


Wildflame

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Re: Wow - advice for artists
« Reply #29 on: August 06, 2014, 10:48:36 AM »
A different way of thinking about it is that $100k in investments can buy several years of full-time arting, or can support a transition to part-time work and part-time arting. This is what I'd like to do; depending on how my career goes, I'd like to go to 3 days a week of a 'real job' and 2 days a week of art once I've got somewhere between $100k-200k invested, or even kick-start with a full year's sabbatical.

Having a positive net worth is all about giving you options. Most people can't go off and spend a year or two getting skilled at their art full-time because in the meantime they'd miss rent and starve. Some have supportive spouses who will pay the bills in the meantime. Some get subsidised by their parents. For the rest of us, it's a case of buying the time needed to develop professional skills and reputation.

I'd love to write novels for a living - always dreamed of it. But that's not going to happen unless I buy myself the space needed to devote myself to it.

Daisy

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Re: Wow - advice for artists
« Reply #30 on: August 06, 2014, 09:19:51 PM »
But I have to wonder:  if a hard job leaves someone too tired and stressed to paint, then perhaps they're not an artist after all.

I sometimes feel like I'm an artist that fell into an engineering career.  When that happens, you get an Industrial Designer.  I'm too tired to paint like I used to because I spend all my energy creating compelling and beautiful products.  The creative drive is constant, but the environment shapes the output. 

I have a space dedicated to painting that I haven't touched in a while.  But I keep it there to remind me of where I came from and and where I'd like to return.

I am jealous! I have worked with industrial designers at my company. I even took a class on it at my last place of employment. I work in product design, but on the software side.

I hadn't heard of industrial design while in engineering school. I only started seeing it at work in the last 5-10 years. I'm not sure if it was a major eons ago during my college days - or if I even would have picked it as a major (but not available at my university). But after working in product design a while, I think industrial design would have been a perfect fit for me.

I tried to talk my artistic niece into studying it, but she said "meh".

Tyler

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Re: Wow - advice for artists
« Reply #31 on: August 06, 2014, 11:28:01 PM »
I am jealous! I have worked with industrial designers at my company. I even took a class on it at my last place of employment. I work in product design, but on the software side.

I hadn't heard of industrial design while in engineering school. I only started seeing it at work in the last 5-10 years. I'm not sure if it was a major eons ago during my college days - or if I even would have picked it as a major (but not available at my university). But after working in product design a while, I think industrial design would have been a perfect fit for me.

I tried to talk my artistic niece into studying it, but she said "meh".

FWIW, interface design is pretty hot right now in the design industry.  So software is a good place to be.

I have certainly enjoyed industrial design.  I actually got into the industry from the mechanical engineering side, as like you I had never heard of ID and picked a major where I could "make stuff".  For any young artists or general creative types out there I definitely recommend it as a good career to look into.

But it still doesn't stop me from planning for FI. ;)  Many good things have an expiration date.

Daisy

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Re: Wow - advice for artists
« Reply #32 on: August 06, 2014, 11:34:05 PM »
But it still doesn't stop me from planning for FI. ;)  Many good things have an expiration date.

Very true. There is a dream job I saw posted for a startup nearby that involved working with industrial design. I briefly thought about it (and started a thread here on it), but quickly decided that my soon-approaching FIRE and abundant PTO from being at the same place for so long were worth more than a dream job. That opening has closed since then. If I ever do get laid off soon and cash in on a hefty severance, after about a year of sabbatical living on the severance (don't want to do something silly and put myself in a huge tax bracket by double dipping with severance and a job), I may see if they have a new opening. But I'll probably say "meh" as well if my FIRE plans are going well.

oldtoyota

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Re: Wow - advice for artists
« Reply #33 on: August 11, 2014, 12:45:08 PM »
This all said, I have published three books while working FT. I am working on a fourth book and have an idea for the fifth. One way I manage working FT with my art is to take vacations at artist residencies. One to two weeks to work on writing is a lot of time.

When I FIRE, my plan is to write more books.




Gerard

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Re: Wow - advice for artists
« Reply #34 on: August 11, 2014, 01:27:33 PM »
Another way of looking at this is that being mustachian in terms of spending and "needs" gives you the ability to pursue your artistic stuff almost full-time, because you can either (a) make it on what your art underpays you or (b) work few enough hours in your day job that you have the energy and empty-mind-space to create. I spent most of my twenties as a low-income but low-compromise musician, first by doing (b) and then a few years of (a). It was an awesome experience, and I don't regret the fact that now I'll have to work a "real" job for a whole 13 years of my life to have a cushy retirement.

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!