Worried That Being Mustachian = Family Will Expect Me to Take Care of My Mom

[ReadySetMillionaire]

My fiancé and I are 29 and have white collar jobs. We have a joint six figure income. We live very modestly--we live in a small house, we drive cheap cars, we don't have cable...on and on.

My twin brother is a teacher. He is financially responsible but is single and doesn't have the luxury of dual income.

My older brother is an absolute train wreck with money and he and his wife are blue collar workers. I've posted about him before. He's filed bankruptcy, has IRS debt still, always has crazy expensive cars. It's insane.

So anyway, my mom is 60 this year. She's decent with money but has a much more expensive house than me (she's single) and seems to eat out all the time. I also know she has only $200k for retirement. I know this is better than a lot of people, but I also know it's not enough for her to live on.

Add all this up and I'm concerned about my family (and especially my siblings)  thinking my future wife and I should be the ones who are financially responsible for my mom. They all know I'm frugal and I've made my early retirement goals well known.

If I FIRE at 42-45, and my family observes me not even needing to work to get by, won't they just assume "oh he has money to help"? I'm dreading being pressured into this.

Because I'll be honest--I love my mom to death, but I don't want to be guilt tripped into subsidizing her lifestyle (and delaying FIRE) because of her own financial decisions.

I know this may sound callous. But it concerns the hell out of me.

Should I confront this now? How should I plan? Thanks.

[shuffler]

What would you want to do, if you had been an only child?
Would you resent being "the one" to care for your mother as much?

[ReadySetMillionaire]

What would you want to do, if you had been an only child?
Would you resent being "the one" to care for your mother as much?

Honestly I don't know. I didn't get too much into it in my OP but my mom has made terrible financial decisions over the years that have pissed me off to no end. New cars, big house (roughly 50% more expensive than mine, refinanced a bunch of times), pets she can't afford, goes on big vacations all the time, etc.

I just find it entirely selfish and irresponsible on her part, and I know as I sit here now that I would never, ever put any burden on my kids if it could have been avoided.

Add on top of that two brothers who aren't great with money and yes, I resent the situation.

That doesn't mean I won't help her at all. I think I will. I'm just resenting the family pressure due to my own financial responsibility.

And most importantly, my post is mostly about how people have planned for this. Surely I'm not the only one with spendthrift parents who will need help in retirement.

[ElleFiji]

If you keep being frugal, but stop talking about your ER goals, will they still think of you as the rich brother? Because most of my family views me as the poor one, except for my parents, who I've recently convinced otherwise. No one will expect me to have money available. I also think that family are sometimes the most in need of an explanation of your job when you retire. Consulting and trying to find a consulting gig seem like good options, as does writer.

I think that you should start planning an amount into your savings that will go to helping your mom, and start thinking about what kinds of help will be useful. Maybe it will be buying her a used car in your name, with her as primary driver, maybe it will be buying a bungalow, converting the basement into a student rental and the top floor into a one level apartment for her to age in. I don't think it will be reasonable to expect her to enjoy her current standard of living forever, on your money, but there are ways to give her a home that could earn you money in the long term.

Or if mom wants to keep the giant place, can you start suggesting that as her friends downsize, they join her as roommates? The income from renting rooms in the giant house might be enough for her.

[Le Poisson]

My sister and I have a lighthearted dialogue between us about who Mom will end up with. We both bought our houses making sure they would not work as a place for Mom to live. As soon as Mom starts talking about who she's moving in with, we each refer her to the other.

All this to say, you aren't alone. Many in our generation are fearing what elder care looks like for our parents.

[retired?]

Personally, I wouldn't give a crap what my siblings thought RE my responsibility vs. theirs or my parents.  Our situations are somewhat similar.  One sibling is a teacher and doesn't earn much.  The other and her spouse have earned more, but made poor financial decisions.  I hate situations that punish those that were frugal, sacrificed or made better (as opposed to luckier) decisions

I'd care more about what my mom thought.  I suppose I'd suggest taking the opportunity to give advice where possible or pose questions that might get her to think.  For example, when I learned my mom was buying xyz when she was carrying a balance on her credit cards, in as kind a way as possible I told her that didn't make sense at all.  It will depend on your relationship of course.

Finally, just because you are able to RE doesn't mean you have plenty of cash to give away.  You will be able to RE perhaps because you were frugal and saved well.  I'd avoid any details with your family about your own finances.  If you live fairly frugally, they may not think you are "rich".

My parents have become better over time, but they do not have a large cushion.  My mom, 70, works about 20 hours a week, dad collects SS and has a small monthly pension.  Liquid assets are about 150k.  My guess is my dad cashed out some retirement accounts when he was out of work and that my mom never contributed much.  Fortunately, I think the embarrassment of relying on one of their kids financially is enough to help them balance the in/out flow.

[HappierAtHome]

What about telling your mother that you don't plan on supporting her financially / you won't be "able" to support her financially, and offering your help with sorting her finances out so she doesn't end up completely broke?

[CloserToFree]

Could you maybe have a sit down with your mom in which you bring up her finances and say you're concerned about her retirement and want to help her make decisions and plan now so that she's able to age independently without becoming dependent on anyone?  Maybe make it a positive "I can help you, I know a lot about this stuff and can help you get in a much better spot"?  I guess I'm thinking that 60 is pretty young and that she can take steps now to avoid being a burden on you or your siblings later. Like selling her house and moving into a much more affordable place, and maybe getting a side job she enjoys that can be both a source of income and a hobby of sorts?

This may be a little pie in the sky.  But I feel like you definitely should NOT just sit there and let the train wrecks continue while you worry and stress about what's to come down the road.  Another idea would be having a frank talk with your siblings (maybe starting with the responsible one) about your fears and ways you both/all can plan for your mom's future. 

Good for you for recognizing this is going to be an issue and thinking about it now rather than when it's too late to really do anything about it!

[marty998]

Could you maybe have a sit down with your mom in which you bring up her finances and say you're concerned about her retirement and want to help her make decisions and plan now so that she's able to age independently without becoming dependent on anyone?  Maybe make it a positive "I can help you, I know a lot about this stuff and can help you get in a much better spot"?  I guess I'm thinking that 60 is pretty young and that she can take steps now to avoid being a burden on you or your siblings later. Like selling her house and moving into a much more affordable place, and maybe getting a side job she enjoys that can be both a source of income and a hobby of sorts?

Prevention is better than cure.

(If only the government applied this to the healthcare budget...)

[Frankies Girl]

You are allowed to say no to any requests/demands. Really.

Do help with information, suggestions and any other advice you can get your mother to accept now, and continue to act as an adviser to her if she is agreeable to the arrangement.

If it comes to it, decide what level of actual financial support (if any) you are willing to give if she needs it. You should do this only if you want to provide it, not because you're solicited, guilt-tripped, or otherwise forced into.

If you give anything, it should be freely and happily given. And you owe no one an explanation for not doing so (or more than you're comfortable with doing).

I would tell any family member that would presume to spend your money for you that you worked very hard scrimping and saving and have a very careful budget with which you must stick closely to in order to be able to take care of your own self/family, but you will be happy to provide advice and moral support.

[PAstash]

My fiancé and I are 29 and have white collar jobs. We have a joint six figure income. We live very modestly--we live in a small house, we drive cheap cars, we don't have cable...on and on.

My twin brother is a teacher. He is financially responsible but is single and doesn't have the luxury of dual income.

My older brother is an absolute train wreck with money and he and his wife are blue collar workers. I've posted about him before. He's filed bankruptcy, has IRS debt still, always has crazy expensive cars. It's insane.

So anyway, my mom is 60 this year. She's decent with money but has a much more expensive house than me (she's single) and seems to eat out all the time. I also know she has only $200k for retirement. I know this is better than a lot of people, but I also know it's not enough for her to live on.

Add all this up and I'm concerned about my family (and especially my siblings)  thinking my future wife and I should be the ones who are financially responsible for my mom. They all know I'm frugal and I've made my early retirement goals well known.

If I FIRE at 42-45, and my family observes me not even needing to work to get by, won't they just assume "oh he has money to help"? I'm dreading being pressured into this.

Because I'll be honest--I love my mom to death, but I don't want to be guilt tripped into subsidizing her lifestyle (and delaying FIRE) because of her own financial decisions.

I know this may sound callous. But it concerns the hell out of me.

Should I confront this now? How should I plan? Thanks.

I find myself as a lot others do in a similar situation. I've pondered long on the subject. Here is what I came up with.

My mother while in her early life was frugal raised me and my sister I suppose to the best of her ability has now taken up gambling habits expensive cars ect... She favored my sister financially allowed her to live home longer and provided more economic outpatient care to her. While on one occasion lied to me about the gambling and essentially stole/borrowed money under false pretense.

I weigh this against the fact that I wouldn't have life without her. Here is what I came up with.

when/if the time comes that care is necessary to be provided I will agree to pay 50% of the cost and only after my sister agrees and provides the other 50%. I am having a similar issue with my  SO mother's failure to plan for her future. I may wash my hands of that bit all together. We have gone back and forth in discussions regarding this.

Your situation is this... Provide it or don't. Weigh the consequences and don't have any regrets as either choice will most likely be bad. I thought the agreement of 50% of necessary costs spilt between me and my sibling is more then fair. She disagrees. She always has when it comes to hard money choices. =) best of luck.

[mustachepungoeshere]

Agree that it is important to start the conversation early, try to ward off some of the pending financial fallout, and outline to her just how much you are willing to help.

But it's also important to point out that you're not willing to support her in a lifestyle more extravagant than your own.

[PAstash]

But it's also important to point out that you're not willing to support her in a lifestyle more extravagant than your own.

I really like this bit here. Seriously if someone is your dependent then you dictate the quality of life. Also they should bring some value. Baby sit kids /clean house ect...

[firelight]

Have an honest conversation with yourself about how much you are willing to support your mom in dollar amount (or if you'd rather help her find federal aid for seniors when the time comes). Add that to your fire plans, stop talking about your money plans with your family and see if your mom is ready to accept your offer of helping her streamline her finances. If she is, then good. If not, then just go by your plans and let the chips fall down on their own. Worst case, you can support your mom to the limit you find comfortable. There is no necessity to support anyone to the limit they find comfortable. Also, just because your brothers are not fiscally responsible doesn't mean you have to burden the entire responsibility. You do what you can, others will learn to live with it.

[Villanelle]

This issue has come up in my family.  The loose agreement is that we will offer bare minimum money, if necessary.  That means rent in a cheap studio apartment in a mediocre area, and a small stipend for bare minimum living expenses.  We will offer offer tons in the way of support with things like finding programs for which she's eligible, applying for SNAP and other programs, helping her find a job of any kind, etc. 

If she chooses to move in with the sibling instead, we will provide her/the sibling with money to help offset the expense they are incurring, and to probably fund a larger life than she'd get if it was all on us.  In my mind, this will likely be ideal.  We have money, sibling doesn't. (Also, we may or may not be living in the same region/state/country as her.) Sibling can offer her a room, and we can offer some money to help with sibling's increased costs due to having an extra person in the household. That seems like an equal way to share the burden (responsibility?) across people with unequal resources.  But somehow, I don't see that happening.  So we'd default to a bare minimum existence.  I have no interest in supporting someone who lived a larger life than I ever have, to continue living a life with extras she can't afford. I don't have cable, so I'm not going to pay for it for someone else! I don't know if Husband will truly be on board when the time comes, but this is my hope. 

[rubybeth]

My sister and I have a lighthearted dialogue between us about who Mom will end up with. We both bought our houses making sure they would not work as a place for Mom to live. As soon as Mom starts talking about who she's moving in with, we each refer her to the other.

All this to say, you aren't alone. Many in our generation are fearing what elder care looks like for our parents.

Oh, I cackled at this. You're not alone--DH and I have discussed this so many times in relation to his mother, and looking at houses--we specifically don't want a basement she can easily live in. It's one of the major reasons I'm cool with continuing to rent our tiny apartment, because we barely even have people over just to entertain, let alone stay with us. Apartment living masks our wealth very well.

What about telling your mother that you don't plan on supporting her financially / you won't be "able" to support her financially, and offering your help with sorting her finances out so she doesn't end up completely broke?

I would second starting this conversation now. My husband's mom has other issues (disabled/mentally ill, basically no income, she hasn't worked consistently since before he was born, etc.) but he has already told her that she's not going to live with us. I've told DH that I'd rather keep working and pay for her to live in an efficiency apartment rather than have her live with us to save some money.

I've seen other topics similar to this on MMM before--I'd suggest bringing it up now with your mother and siblings, and start the conversation. There are likely quite a few options--for example, mom selling her expensive, too big house and investing in an annuity type thing. Will she have social security or other government support if you aren't in the US? Can she work part-time now, until she can no longer work at all? You can offer assistance with budgeting, planning, etc. but make it clear that you can't accept financial responsibility, or that, if you do, you want the others to chip in, as well--maybe each of you picks a bill that you're willing to cover for her (insurance, food, utilities) that makes sense for each of your budgets, and then just factor that into your planning for FIRE.

And definitely STOP talking about your personal wealth--do not disclose numbers or specific plans any longer. This is a boundary issue, and you need to be firm on this.

[Frugalman19]

What about telling your mother that you don't plan on supporting her financially / you won't be "able" to support her financially, and offering your help with sorting her finances out so she doesn't end up completely broke?

I tried this many many times. Im in a similar situation to OP. The issue is, if your mom knows she has a safety net, she will never change. It's shitty to say, but she has had 60 years to figure this out. It's not your job to suffer because she wanted to go to Applebees.

Ive tried multiple times to help my mom, she just cannot see finances the way I do. She thinks money is meant to be spent, not saved. Plain and simple. I have let her know, she will be on her own financially in the future, I have my own life a family to worry about.

[Goldielocks]

If you are living frugally and not flashy, others think you are poor and unemployed, not FIRE. Your spendy brother likely thinks ( or will) that he is richer than you.

Most seniors do have a small income which, if added to the household, is a net gain, so your other siblings would be better off financially if they take mom in, if they have an extra bedroom.

You might need to pony up money to help pay for a day nurse a few times a week, but that sounds far off, and the amount would be your choice.

So unless you start to brag or offer, you taking on mom is actually unlikely.

[CheapScholar]

Move to a different state to get away from this stuff.  That's what I did. 

[Guesl982374]

Maybe gift her a few sessions with a fee-only financial planner?

A couple of my clients "gave" me to one of their mothers. i.e. they paid for her first year. She ended up continuing with me for several more on her own dime. The original clients had similar concerns as you and wanted to minimize future resentments and finacial burdens. All my sessions and planning with the mother focused on what she could do with her assets and what she could afford to spend. Sometimes she would mention promises from one of her kids but I said unless the money was in her account, we would not plan with it 'cuz you never know if you'll actually get it.

 Now she's in a stable place but for about 5 years I was the one telling her what she could afford to spend and why. I think it worked out well for them. Their family connections were improved by reducing the stress of kids critiquing a parent's decisions and worrying about their future support. And her pride and independence were not trashed. She had a person there to answer her questions who really listened to her.

It might be well worth a few dollars now. Especially while she's still working and can do some restructuring.

Best wishes. Families are tough.

+1 on prevention.

Also, I've seen it where a child only provides support as a last resort. I.e. you don't let her live on the street however you will support her by letting her live in a bedroom in your house, she eats what you eat, and she provides a small amount to the household from SS.

[teen persuasion]

So anyway, my mom is 60 this year. She's decent with money but has a much more expensive house than me (she's single) and seems to eat out all the time. I also know she has only $200k for retirement. I know this is better than a lot of people, but I also know it's not enough for her to live on. 

Is mom working?  When does she plan to retire?  When will her mortgage be paid off?  What kind of SS income can she expect?  Her own record, or a former spouse's?  What age does she expect to start collecting SS?  Any pension income?

All of the answers to these questions are a part of the picture of mom's retirement finances.  Maybe start a discussion with her, asking what she envisions her retirement to be.  See how much she has planned, what income she can expect, what her expenses are, how much time is left for planning and saving.

Look at the time frame, too.  You mentioned planning to FIRE at age 42-45, or 13-16 years out.  By then mom will be into her 70s, likely already collecting SS.  Are chances good that she retires before you FIRE?

I might start the conversation with SS - since she COULD start collecting at 62, and changes are being bandied about.  Ask her whether she leans toward collecting early vs waiting to 70.  Has she looked up her expected benefits?  How much more would she be eligible for by waiting?  How much of her budget does that cover?  What if/when benefits are cut?  Where does the rest come from?  Use questions to get more info, and to get her to think thru options and tradeoffs.

[wenchsenior]

Welcome to our world!

We are the only kids on either side of the family with any real financial stability (out of 3 kids on my side and 6 on DH's). We had to think long and hard about what were were willing to do for our dirt poor mothers when they hit their mid 60s, knowing that the other siblings variously weren't interested or weren't able to do anything.

Eventually, we took on support for my mother (moved her to our city, bought her a house, gave her a car, pay her basic utilities, which she is finally able to start helping to offset to the tune of a couple hundred $ per month after 6 years due to small inheritance).  We did not feel comfortable doing this for DH's mother, who is not as cooperative, so we allocate about 2K per year for the inevitable panicked phone calls when she has no where to live, etc. 

Mostly, we're ok with this decision. I feel occasionally very resentful about it. Interestingly, I found out my two siblings are kind of resentful that I DID help, because it makes them feel guilty LOL. Also annoying is the assumption of my mother's two sisters (both MUCH more financially stable than my mother) that we also just pony up for plane tickets, etc., for my mother when they want her to come visit them in other states.  THAT at least, we no longer do.

Alternatively, we could have left both of them to the welfare state and the consequences of their bad decisions, which would have been legitimate also. In the case of my mother, it would have caused way too much stress for me.  YMMV.

[ReadySetMillionaire]

Thanks for all the replies so far. I just spent a bunch of time responding to a different thread and need to get to work, but will respond to these later. Just wanted to note these couple comments:

And definitely STOP talking about your personal wealth--do not disclose numbers or specific plans any longer. This is a boundary issue, and you need to be firm on this.

It's not that I actively bring up my finances, it's just that they see me living in a small house, driving an old car, not really buying anything new, etc. and know that money is going somewhere. We live in a very low COL area and my fiance and I easily make more than my siblings and my mom--actually almost double what they make. So it's the combined perception of "they're white collar workers" and "they're savers" which leads them to the opinion that I have money bursting out of my pockets.

So anyway, my mom is 60 this year. She's decent with money but has a much more expensive house than me (she's single) and seems to eat out all the time. I also know she has only $200k for retirement. I know this is better than a lot of people, but I also know it's not enough for her to live on. 

Is mom working?  When does she plan to retire?  When will her mortgage be paid off?  What kind of SS income can she expect?  Her own record, or a former spouse's?  What age does she expect to start collecting SS?  Any pension income?

All of the answers to these questions are a part of the picture of mom's retirement finances.  Maybe start a discussion with her, asking what she envisions her retirement to be.  See how much she has planned, what income she can expect, what her expenses are, how much time is left for planning and saving.

Look at the time frame, too.  You mentioned planning to FIRE at age 42-45, or 13-16 years out.  By then mom will be into her 70s, likely already collecting SS.  Are chances good that she retires before you FIRE?

I might start the conversation with SS - since she COULD start collecting at 62, and changes are being bandied about.  Ask her whether she leans toward collecting early vs waiting to 70.  Has she looked up her expected benefits?  How much more would she be eligible for by waiting?  How much of her budget does that cover?  What if/when benefits are cut?  Where does the rest come from?  Use questions to get more info, and to get her to think thru options and tradeoffs.

Mom actually starts a new job next week making $60k per year. I'm ecstatic for her (this is probably a 20% raise), but I am fearful that she will increase her spending to match her raise. Given the general advice so far in this thread, maybe this might be the perfect opportunity to bring all this stuff up with her?

[FIRE Artist]

I think this forum could use an elder care section.  These types of threads seem to come up a lot.

[ReadySetMillionaire]

I think this forum could use an elder care section.  These types of threads seem to come up a lot.

Search function is broken, so I apologize if this has been brought up before.

[teen persuasion]

Mom actually starts a new job next week making $60k per year. I'm ecstatic for her (this is probably a 20% raise), but I am fearful that she will increase her spending to match her raise. Given the general advice so far in this thread, maybe this might be the perfect opportunity to bring all this stuff up with her?

Yeah!  Start out really excited - "You're so lucky that you are able to put $24k in a 401k AND $6500 in an IRA!  Just think of the tax savings!"

[Fireball]

"Given the general advice so far in this thread, maybe this might be the perfect opportunity to bring all this stuff up with her?"

Yes, I think you have to have the conversation with her, but in my experience parents don't start listening to their kids until they're in pretty poor health.  They always see their kids as their kids and parents always know best.  There are always exceptions of course.  IMO the siblings are the ones you need to have a serious conversation with.  Maybe this is a good excuse for the siblings to get their financial house in order as well. Be completely honest with everyone and be assertive with them. Above all, make sure your Mom doesn't end up in a tough situation. 

[mm1970]

This is tough.  My parents died when I was 37 and 41, so I never had to deal with that.

My husband's grandparents...well they weren't bad with money, but they lived to mid-80's to mid-90's.  They didn't have enough money to live independently for all that time.  So they ended up in a state home.

Those are depressing.  But it's an option.

[Fishindude]

I felt a certain sense of obligation to take care of my mom in her later years, you probably do too.
Don't concern yourself with your siblings because they aren't going to be much help financially.  Best thing you could do is try to get your mom on the right track and living within her means and making plans on how she will support herself in the coming years, sell the house, tighten up on spending, etc.   If siblings can't help out financially, maybe they can at least help mom with physical assistance around the house, cleaning lawn care, vehicle maintenance, etc.?

[jim555]

OP, who cares what your family expects?  Seriously. 
Move away from mom, problem solved. 

[Poundwise]

Thanks for all the replies so far. I just spent a bunch of time responding to a different thread and need to get to work, but will respond to these later. Just wanted to note these couple comments:

And definitely STOP talking about your personal wealth--do not disclose numbers or specific plans any longer. This is a boundary issue, and you need to be firm on this.

It's not that I actively bring up my finances, it's just that they see me living in a small house, driving an old car, not really buying anything new, etc. and know that money is going somewhere. We live in a very low COL area and my fiance and I easily make more than my siblings and my mom--actually almost double what they make. So it's the combined perception of "they're white collar workers" and "they're savers" which leads them to the opinion that I have money bursting out of my pockets.

When you finally do FIRE yourselves, maybe you can be low key about it. Just shake your head sadly, and say something like, "I had to stop working," as if it were an involuntary choice, then add, "and for my health, it's probably better that I take early retirement.  We have just enough to last us if we stay on a fixed income and are very frugal."

As for talking to your mother about money, it's worth a try... maybe help her calculate how much money she needs to save in order to retire when she wants to.

[golden1]

My mother is 70 and in very poor health, physically and financially.  She had good jobs and access to retirement plans when she was younger but either chose not to contribute or borrowed against them, I am not sure which.  Years ago, she and my step-father asked me for money in an emergency and I loaned it to them then in the tune of mid five figures.  I never saw most of that money again.  My mom divorced that man but now is in bad shape financially.  She lives on a combination of a small inheritance and SSDI, plus she has a boyfriend who combined incomes with her.  We have an understanding that if she is in desperate trouble, we will help her out, but that is my limit.  I have paid for medications she could not afford and things like that, but no other long term support is possible.  She also knows I have a son with special needs (ASD) who may need some support in early adulthood so she would feel bad asking for more. 

[BabyShark]

I'm definitely nervous about this, not about my own mother, but my in laws.  Fortunately, before my dad passed last year, he was incredibly diligent in making sure my mother would be taken care of when she, inevitably, out lived him.  Now that he's gone, my mother has been much more open about the details of her finances and at this point, I'm confident she'll be ok for the rest of her life. 

My in-laws, on the other hand, they've already been having money issues to the point where my husband has had to send them rent money on numerous occasions, they cleared out their retirement and savings when my FIL lost his job 7 or 8 years ago and had to declare bankruptcy.  Whenever I bring up that we need to talk about this before he just sends them money, my husband gets really defensive because "what else is he going to do, they're family, of course I'm going to send them money."  They're in a MUCH better place now but if they have nothing saved, they're going to have to keep working for the rest of their lives I guess?  I haven't had this particular discussion with my husband but I'm sure we'll have to have it eventually.  My SIL will be of no help, she's her own sort of trainwreck financially, and everything that goes wrong obviously isn't her fault, it's always somebody else's.

[FireHiker]

I have the same concern with my mother. She is a total spender and hoarder of (mostly useless) stuff. Due to a lifetime of bad financial decisions she is currently living with her sister and has been for the better part of the last year. Not for the first time. I have a very spendypants brother who is two years younger than I am. He and his wife make a lot of money (not quite as much as we do but each close to 6 figures) but they spend like crazy, with ridiculous student loan debt (vet school, doctorate program, private schools while still eating out at Michelin restaurants, that sort of thing). Our mom helped them out with a place for his wife to live during vet school for 3 years, but I don't know if they'll help her out at all in the long run. We have a younger sister who has had a whole host of issues I can't even begin to go into here, who is 33, hasn't worked in 7 years, living with my mom on our aunt's couch, basically mooching off of our mother's meager social security and pension. No idea what's going to happen there.

As for me, I am new to the mustachian world, but both my husband and I are engineers, we don't have consumer debt, and we live well below our means. We plan to retire early (but not are early as is common around here), with a fair bit in the bank for a comfortable lifestyle indefinitely. I have a lot of stress about my mother. My childhood was pretty shitty; we were homeless when I was 12/13, and she was extremely verbally abusive. It was hell and I got out and put myself through school. I am not close to her at all, but I have the only grandkids and I feel bad about where she is in life even though it is a result of her own bad decisions. She recently inherited some money and I've tried to give her advice to get herself set up in a stable situation for life, but so far she has ignored me. I don't know how it will pan out yet, but it's pretty depressing. I'd say it is the single biggest thing that keeps me up at night. So, I'm sorry I don't have any advice, but I feel the OP's pain, and I'm interested to read what people have to add here.

[coppertop]

Just wow.  It's hard to keep from patting myself on the back, reading all of these responses!  :)  I'm going to be 62 this year.  Husband and I have worked hard at getting the house paid off and building up our nest egg so we won't have to rely on anyone but ourselves in our later years.  I would never wish to be a burden on my kids, no matter how financially successful they might be.  We live on less now so we can be secure later. 

On the other hand, to play devil's advocate, I know of at least two couples in my age group who are in financial difficulties because of what they gave to their kids - specifically weddings and college educations, where they mortgaged their homes and took out other types of loans to do so, and not because they gambled or went out to dinner every night and took expensive vacations. They are still giving to their adult kids, too - in the form of subsidizing their rent, paying car loans, and travel expenses.  Takes all kinds to make a world, I guess. 

[boy_bye]

I'm an orphan, so I won't face this with my folks, but I did face it with my grandma. My mom was an only child, so it was just me, my brother, and my sister around to care for grandma, and brother and sister did not have the resources/time to help. So it was on me.

My grandma had high expectations when she moved from Florida to PA to be nearer me and my brother. She expected me to get a house and have her move in with me. I let her know (before she moved) that wasn't going to work for me, but that I'd be there to help her out. And I did -- I paid for an apartment for her the first year, then helped her get into subsidized senior housing, helped her get hooked into all the services for old people in PA (there are a lot).

She had a tiny SS check to live on every month, and with subsidized housing and Medicare, she was able to do so. I very consciously encouraged her to set up her life so that her necessities were taken care of by her SS check, and I stepped in to get bigger things like hearing aids. I also took her out for meals and movies and on a couple of trips.

It worked out pretty well but we needed to have some frank and kind of difficult discussions about her expectations versus what I could do. I did not want her to be financially dependent on me, because what if I got sick or lost my job? Then we'd both be up shit creek. This argument in particular seemed to really resonate with her, because she knew I didn't have a safety net myself and I wanted her to be OK regardless of what might happen to me.

So, yes. Decide what you are willing to do and talk it out with your mom to make sure her expectations are in line with what's possible for you. The gap between expectations/assumptions and reality is always what causes pain!

[stoaX]

I would never wish to be a burden on my kids, no matter how financially successful they might be.   

Exactly - it would take dire circumstances before I would ever accept help from my kids. 

And one other thought for the OP - you said your mother is 60 - that doesn't sound like she's anywhere near not being able to live on her own.  So the "taking care of her" situation may not happen for many years from now and a lot will change between now and then.  Or she may never need help. 

So I wouldn't expend too much energy worrying about it at this time. 

[little_brown_dog]

In a similar situation – we are the wealthiest/most financially stable of all of us kids. My parents plan on working until 70 and will receive substantial SS between the two of them, so their 500k in retirement will hopefully be enough to take care of them. However, if something does happen and they burn through their income due to questionable financial choices (possible, they have a high expense lifestyle) or health problems and associated long term care costs (also highly possible), I could end up on the hook somehow.

I started planning for this by:

1. Offering casually (and repeatedly on different occasions) to help them as they plan to retire in a few years. As others said, I made the conversations really positive (“have you guys thought about your plans?” and “let me know if you want any help”) and didn’t force the issue if they just dismissed me or changed the subject. My parents are still working so they have not asked for my assistance and honestly they probably never will. But I have made it clear that I am willing and available to help them brainstorm or plan.

2. NEVER offering actual monetary assistance, even in jest. In my financial conversations with them, I never say things like “oh I’ll take care of you!” or “don’t worry about money”. These platitudes are nice but I know will come back to bite me in the ass if SHTF. I want them to know I support them socially, emotionally, and with financial knowledge, but NOT with actual money. I may change my mind later on, but for right now I don’t want there to be any assumptions.

3. Making my expectations about living situations clear – Having parents live near us in the same town, or even with us in a separate in law apartment/house is a strong possible option, and we have talked about that. But every time, I make it clear that it would be a commune/ old school multigenerational household style thing…where everyone contributes financially and work wise to the best of their physical ability. That means if they want to live with us, they would need to help us finance a bigger property with an in-law apartment/cottage, cover their utilities and own expenses, and be a useful part of our family (daily/weekly help with children, gardening, etc). In turn they get all the massive perks of aging in a home with family to help them too. I also made it clear that I will not be a hospice nurse…this situation is only viable for as long as they remain capable, competent adults. I will not be watching a dementia patient every day, or helping people dress/go to the toilet. If it comes to that, their retirement funds will be used to pay for in home carers or to move them to a facility. 

Other than that, I don't really know what else I can do...

[NESailor]

which leads them to the opinion that I have money bursting out of my pockets.

But you do.  To people who think $20K is a lot of money because every time they have just a few thousand they go out and spend it ... just assuming that you have 100s of thousands (and you do) to your name seems like you're filthy rich.

I don't have much to add that hasn't already been said.  I think my mom will be OK-ish but I'm concerned because she lives in a different country (I'm an immigrant to the US).  She's very well set for our home country but if I wanted to bring her here...the healthcare piece will be a real puzzle.  Any stories from the gallery here? 

My sister also immigrated here and has a good job too but I'm beginning to wonder if she'll be any help.  She settled in a HCOL area and she's trying to fit right in (4ksqft house, new financed car).  I assumed she'd be fine because they pull in a really nice income with her partner but a recent experience is giving me pause.  "we" (I) bought  plane tickets for Christmas for my mom.  We were going to split the cost and we explicitly agreed on this.  I awkwardly followed up once and was told that she'd give me a bit less than half (I offered).  I haven't seen any money yet.

In-laws....oh man.  American.  Consumer suckers who live somewhat on the edge.  I think they'll have some 250K in retirement savings between them so they should be fine but they'll have to adjust their lifestyle if they don't want to end up destitute in the very likely case they need extended medical care due to their current poor lifestyle...

[RangerOne]

At least you have 3 siblings to work with. But I think it is pretty normal to not always have all the siblings on board for helping out proportionately as parents age. Its just a sad fact of life that not everyone is going to do their part for one reason or another.

If you feel your twin brother is more responsible as the time nears where your mom needs help you can share more with him about working together to ease the burden. Maybe your older brother will contribute some time even if he never offers any money.

Even if you retire at 45 or so I don't think there is any reason to let your family assume that means you have infinite free time. I would just keep your full finances private and don't use the words retired. Just say you are freelancing or working from home.

It is probably worth getting your Mom to talk about her retirement plan and get her to start thinking about what it will take to live without working given the resources at hand. She may or may not be receptive. Most people her age are frighted of retirement especially if they are not financially savoy and used to budgeting.

$200k is a very small 401k unless she has some form of pension. If she has a pension she may be in good shape, otherwise SS with a small savings is a fairly skimpy living but as you say it is actually better than a lot of people, probably possible but it wont offer any lavish vacations or consumer rampages . Perhaps if the house is payed for she may have access to more money through downsizing.

[asauer]

Start having the conversation now with your mother and brother in the room.  Say something like "mom, since you're getting a little older, I want to talk to you about what care plans you have in place so that (brother's name) and I can coordinate that for you if something happens."  Sets the expectation that #1- she should have a plan, #2- you AND your brother are expected to coordinate that plan (not to BE the plan), #3- sets the expectation for your brother that, yes, he will participate.  After she has a plan and explains it, discuss and WRITE DOWN what your role will be and what your brother's role will be.  Have that conversation with you mom and brother too.  You don't want to have these conversations after something has happened and emotions are already torn up.

[desk_jockey]

Mom actually starts a new job next week making $60k per year. I'm ecstatic for her (this is probably a 20% raise), but I am fearful that she will increase her spending to match her raise. Given the general advice so far in this thread, maybe this might be the perfect opportunity to bring all this stuff up with her? 

Yes!!!  By all means bring this stuff up with her. 

I would have a series of frank discussions with her one-on-one, no spouse or siblings present.  Each conversation can build on the previous and thus not too much at any one time to overwhelm her.

She's about to turn 60, all the kids are grown, and she's making $60K/year.  If she can work until she hits the maximum SS age of 70, then with a bit of discipline she would be in good shape.   Look at how much progress that moderately frugal people on these forums have made in 10 years time. 

I also love the idea of gifting her a fee-only financial advisor for a year or a series of meetings.   If you pay initially, then the financial advisor should be willing to support your message, and reinforce her need to be financially independent from her children. 

Other than that, determine how much you are willing to give her per month and the number of months you are willing to support, and that is a good approximation of how much you need to save beyond your own personal FIRE target. 

Good luck!

[Sibley]

I have a similar situation, but different sticking points. Parents aren't really spendy, but dad has early dementia. Eventually for health reasons, their current situation will no longer be possible. I am planning on buying a house this year, and will try to find one that can accommodate them. However, moving in with me will require them to significantly downsize.

Mom says that she doesn't have a lot of stuff. She actually does. It could be a lot worse, but there's a lot of stuff in her attic, basement, and living areas. I don't want most of this stuff. My sister doesn't want most of it either. Whatever areas are hers in the house, she can put whatever she wants in there. Other areas will be my areas, so I will have to actually WANT whatever items she wants to put there. That will be a short list. The rest of it, she'll have to figure out what to do with it.

A lot of the problem is that mom has furniture, etc that belonged to various family members. Due to various factors, she hangs onto this stuff with a death grip. So this is not going to go well. I've taken the approach that she'll have to figure it out. Luckily, we're not there yet. And she has been getting rid of some things (not the family furniture of course).

I'm hampered by physical strength - there are items that she's ok with getting rid of, but no one is strong enough to actually get them out of the house. Such as the old, full size metal filing cabinet. Sheesh, that thing is heavy.

[Poundwise]

I'm hampered by physical strength - there are items that she's ok with getting rid of, but no one is strong enough to actually get them out of the house. Such as the old, full size metal filing cabinet. Sheesh, that thing is heavy.

Quick suggestion: post on Craigslist or freecycle for free or cheap.  People will be pretty happy to come over and take it away for you.  At different times in the past, I've advertised filing cabinets for $50 each, and it never took more than a week to sell them.

[Daleth]

Could you maybe have a sit down with your mom in which you bring up her finances and say you're concerned about her retirement and want to help her make decisions and plan now so that she's able to age independently without becoming dependent on anyone?  Maybe make it a positive "I can help you, I know a lot about this stuff and can help you get in a much better spot"?  I guess I'm thinking that 60 is pretty young and that she can take steps now to avoid being a burden on you or your siblings later. Like selling her house and moving into a much more affordable place, and maybe getting a side job she enjoys that can be both a source of income and a hobby of sorts?

Before you have this conversation, think about what you would be willing to do if she needs help supporting herself when she's older. I completely understand resenting the thought that she and your siblings might expect you to help support her unsustainable lifestyle. Nobody should have to do that. The solution to that problem is actually very simple: don't do that. Your options are not "either support her bad lifestyle or let her be homeless on the street."

So, for instance, would you be willing to install a mother-in-law suite in your basement or garage or on your ground floor (the high potential for reduced mobility makes suites in, say, the attic not a good idea), or to buy a home that already has one, and then rent it out until she needs it (good for your own cash flow/FI in the meantime), at which point you'd let her live there for free or very reduced rent? Or would you be willing to pay her rent on a 1BR apartment, or to buy an investment property that includes a 1BR, which you would rent out until she needed it and then?

Get into specifics with yourself: would you be willing to rent it to her for a much-reduced rate, would you be willing to rent it free but expect your siblings to pay her utilities, etc.?  And if she became unable to care for herself (i.e. live independently), would you expect that you and your siblings would chip in to help pay for home health aides to make her meals, bathe her etc., or is there a program near you where that could be subsidized, or would you expect her to go into a nursing home on Medicaid?

I'm brainstorming here but you get the idea: think through what you actually would be willing to do so that you have answers ready if she asks during your conversation, and so that you can give her a realistic picture of the future. And bear in mind that she will presumably have some level of Social Security and Medicare... that is, if the current political regime doesn't manage to destroy that. Definitely encourage her not to start taking social security until as late as possible (or until she needs it because she can no longer live independently, or until she truly runs out of money, whichever comes first), so that she can get the most money possible.

And one final IMPORTANT piece of advice: see if you can persuade your mom to go see an elder law attorney with you and get two things done...

- First, get healthcare and financial power of attorney docs drawn up so that if your mother has some medical catastrophe, what she wants happens. (As an example, my grandparents both specifically excluded their middle daughter from participating in medical and end-of-life decisions--they named my mom instead--because the middle daughter was a fervent Catholic who they knew would never comply with their wish to be allowed to die peacefully with no heroic measures taken.) Some responsible sibling or siblings, presumably you and/or your twin, need to be named as the ones able to make medical and financial decisions for her if she is unable to make those decisions herself.

A lot of people do the medical power of attorney but not the financial one. Bad move: what if she has a stroke next month, when she still has $200k, and is given 6-12 months to live? What if the best solution is to put her in some amazing, very high-quality and convenient nursing home, but you can't because you can't access her money? And because she still has money, she's ineligible for Medicaid... she would be absolutely up sh*t creek.

- And second, find out what the current situation is re: Medicaid eligibility, and whether there is any way to protect whatever money she may have left (put it in trust?).

[effigy98]

I struggle with this issue big time. Mom was very very irresponsible with money and now is ALWAYS asking for more money. Even now when she gets any cash in her hand she goes and buys unnecessary things to make herself feel good. It drives me insane. I am subsidizing her rent to the tune of 1300 a month and giving her occasional handouts of food, car repairs, etc. She keeps hinting at wanting to move in with us but I KNOW that will basically end my marriage. Thank you for the threads on this issue, it is helpful to see others going thru this type of issue.

[Sibley]

I'm hampered by physical strength - there are items that she's ok with getting rid of, but no one is strong enough to actually get them out of the house. Such as the old, full size metal filing cabinet. Sheesh, that thing is heavy.

Quick suggestion: post on Craigslist or freecycle for free or cheap.  People will be pretty happy to come over and take it away for you.  At different times in the past, I've advertised filing cabinets for $50 each, and it never took more than a week to sell them.

I suggested, Mom is not comfortable handling it. If I lived there or nearby and could handle all of it, I'd try it. Putting things on the curb is quite successful there, but again, I can't move them.

[wenchsenior]

Could you maybe have a sit down with your mom in which you bring up her finances and say you're concerned about her retirement and want to help her make decisions and plan now so that she's able to age independently without becoming dependent on anyone?  Maybe make it a positive "I can help you, I know a lot about this stuff and can help you get in a much better spot"?  I guess I'm thinking that 60 is pretty young and that she can take steps now to avoid being a burden on you or your siblings later. Like selling her house and moving into a much more affordable place, and maybe getting a side job she enjoys that can be both a source of income and a hobby of sorts?

Before you have this conversation, think about what you would be willing to do if she needs help supporting herself when she's older. I completely understand resenting the thought that she and your siblings might expect you to help support her unsustainable lifestyle. Nobody should have to do that. The solution to that problem is actually very simple: don't do that. Your options are not "either support her bad lifestyle or let her be homeless on the street."

I totally agree with the bolded text above. Think about what your own options to help are, then decide what you can live with financially and in terms of interpersonal stress or resentment. Then initiate some discussions with the parent to see if they have an idea of how they would like to handle things. If they don't have a workable plan or can't figure out a way to develop one after a few convos including suggestions from you, only then would you need to present the options that involve you actively helping out, as noted above.

But definitely get clear on what you are willing and able to do before this.  Make sure your significant other (if any) is on the same page, too. I know our marriage was strained during the period leading up to, and immediately following, us taking on support for my mother. Over time, it got easier, but this was partly because we had a path forward.

[Cassie]

I can't believe how many Boomers her expect their kids to give them $. At 62 I would never do that to my kids.  There are many programs, etc for seniors.  Low income senior apartments, food stamps, p.t. work thru AARP programs specifically for low income seniors, medicare, meals on wheels, etc.  I suggest people here find services for their family members and expect the parents to live within their means.  My Mom lived until almost 90 so did run out of $ due to no fault of her own but lived fine in a nice apartment with her SS and small pension check. She lived within her means once her saved $ was gone. We would treat her to a trip or meal out because we wanted too but she never expected it and we would have to say a trip was for all the gifts that year or she would not take it.  Seniors can live fine with all the services available.  Also if things go bad and your parents need nursing home care Medicaid will pay once they have less then 2500 in assets so things will have to be sold and if a spouse is still alive there are regulations to keep the surviving spouse from being impoverished. This would be a good time to pay for a consult for your parent with an elder law that knows the law.  I was a social worker in the past and many people just do not know what is available. Also a social worker for your state or county can help you find resources. I don;t think it is good for anyone to be dependent on their kids for support. Also I would rather live in a small apartment then live with my kids and being expected to take care of their kids as payment.  Many people after raising their own kids don't want to do it again. Some elders may enjoy this but most I know would resent it. Help with things other then $ and don't turn your parents into kids.  Both parent and adult children will resent each other in the end.

[jim555]

Social services might be able to help with a home care arrangement.